September 2, 2025 • 57 mins
Failure is inevitable, but how we respond to it reveals so much about our character. In this episode, Alex and Ben reflect on what it looks like for a leader to grow through failure. They explore the different ways people might define failure based on their personalities, discuss the difference between failure and mistakes, and share practical advice for leaders looking to respond in a healthy way after their team experiences a failure.
Information isn’t the gap between failure and success—action is. Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching helps you create a plan and execute on what matters most for your business. Apply today at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Episode Recap:
- Here’s what you can expect from the podcast moving forward
- What about failure is challenging to you?
- How personality impacts our view of failure
- There’s a difference between failure of character and failure of performance
- What does it look like to fail well?
- Responding to failure with pride can lead us to sin
- How can leaders communicate well after a team failure?
- Humility is understanding that we are enough through Christ
- How can leaders take responsibility for failure without stealing responsibility?
If you’re ready to move beyond just gathering information and start executing on what truly matters, Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching can help. Apply now at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Resources:
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Download the Free Reading Guide
Join us for our 2025 Experience – Long Game Leadership
Connect with our Founder Alex Judd on LinkedIn and Instagram
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Judd (00:02):
So in the interest of building in public right now, we
we said, man, we're gonna launcha video channel. And then we
were like, we're gonna outfitthis room inside my house. But
we're like, well, we wanna dosomething with that door. Let's
install a hidden door before we,before we launch this thing. And
then we're like, we don't needto wait.
So literally the contractor'sbeen been in here all week.
(00:23):
There's still a hole in thiswall that we covered up, but
this studio is very much a workin progress right now is what we
would say. But I I personally amglad we started.
Ben Loy (00:32):
Yep. I would agree.
Alex Judd (00:34):
So the second thing is that one of the things that
we are really excited about withthe video channel that we're now
launching is the differentformats that we want to test in
terms of content andconversation. And so we just
kind of wanted to prep peoplewith what that's going to look
like because you're going toexperience all three of these
(00:54):
formats moving forward andthere's one particularly that
we're going to do for the firsttime today. So the first is very
standard guest interview. Thereare people that we know have
established leadership roles andexperiences or have an
irresistible message that we'reso pumped to have some of those
people on here. And some ofthem, like, maybe a household
name, some of them might besomeone you never heard of, but
(01:16):
they are just so good on thetopic that they're interested
in, and we're pumped to talk tothose people in here.
So that that's guest interviews.The second one are topics that
are more teaching oriented.Right? So these are going to be
kind of maybe not fullypredefined, but largely
predefined outlines that we aregoing to walk through together.
Maybe you and I, maybe some ofthe members of our team, maybe
other leaders that we reallyrespect and say, we're gonna
(01:40):
walk through content that isreally based on the multitude of
leaders that we've coached,learned from, the things that
we've experienced in buildingour business, and we're gonna
distill that down into reallyactionable content episodes.
And then the third one is whatwe're doing today and I'm I'm
personally really excited aboutthis because I think it's new
and different. We're kind ofdefining this as exploratory
(02:03):
episodes. And so when we sayexploratory episodes, we are not
in any way painting ourselves asexperts on the topic at hand.
What we are saying is we areextremely interested
practitioners of the topic athand. And one of the things that
I deeply believe is that thebest form of conversation almost
(02:23):
feels like mutual exploration,where you have a topic that
you're like, man, I am likelegitimately genuinely
interested on this.
I do not have all the answers,but I kind of want to use you as
the person that I ping mythoughts on. And you can say,
Alex, I think you're being anidiot. Or you can say like, man,
I think that's actually reallysolid and and, we're going to do
(02:44):
that today. So the the formaty'all can expect in within these
exploratory conversations is forthe purposes of today at least,
it's gonna be Ben and I taking atopic that we think is hyper
relevant for us individually,but also widely relevant for
leaders in general. And we justcame with some predefined
thoughts, but also predefinedquestions that the goal would
(03:07):
be, let's just get an hourfurther down the road in terms
of how we think of the nuancesof this topic.
So before we jump into theactual topic, anything else
you'd add on the format that youjust want people to be aware of?
Ben Loy (03:19):
Yeah. I think when we were brainstorming and we were
thinking about different topicsthat we could cover when it
comes to exploration, this onestuck out to me because I I
think particularly how peoplenavigate through failures says a
lot about who they are in theircharacter. Mhmm. But also can
kind of shed a light into evenmaybe just thinking errors or, I
(03:40):
guess, when someone experiencesfailure, it can shed a light
into maybe some beliefs thatthey had that were incorrect
about themselves, about God,about the world that we live in.
Mhmm.
And if you're not consciousabout how you're navigating
through that failure, you're notgonna grow.
Alex Judd (03:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you chose the topic. You get us
started. Where do you wanna jump
Ben Loy (04:02):
in first? Well, I could start with a really heavy
hitter. So Okay. Good. What isit about failure that is most
challenging to you personally?
Alex Judd (04:11):
You're gonna answer this too. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh,
man.
Well and this is one of thequestions that I genuinely have
too that I would like for us toget into is there is so much
content out there on learningfrom failure, recovering from
failure, how you, redeem yourfailures, all of that. And I I
have literally heard podcastersin particular say that's one of
(04:34):
the topics that performs best ontheir channels, which I always
thought was so interestingbecause I personally I
personally do not resonate withthe word failure very much.
Like, that is not a word that Ithink of very much. It's not not
It's actually very hard as I waskind of preparing my thoughts on
this. It was hard for me toblack and white characterize,
(04:55):
oh, those were things in my lifeor in my business or my
leadership that were concretefailures because it's like, I
mean, the leader's mindset,right, is you either win or you
learn.
Right?
Ben Loy (05:05):
Yeah.
Alex Judd (05:05):
So I think I don't resonate with the language of
failure very much, but if we aregonna adopt that language for
the purpose of thisconversation, I think the thing
just being very candid that Istruggle with more than anything
is actually the image of notbeing successful. Like, you
(05:27):
know, if you if we do somethingstupid as a business, which we
have done stupid as a businessbefore, I am always shocked at
how we might have lost thousandsof dollars in that stupid
mistake that we made or thatstupid thing that I did as a
leader or something like that.We may have lost thousands of
dollars, but the thing that getsto me the most is what it looks
(05:50):
like to other people. As I mean,that's very vulnerable to say,
but it's something that I I feellike I pray about and I'm
working on growing in is likebecause I think that does, like
you said, reveal something aboutcharacter that it's like, that's
the thing that I lift up. Iactually don't care about the
dollars and cents as much.
Praise God. That's not my idol.Mhmm. But my idol certainly can
be winning the approval ofothers. And so I guess that's
(06:14):
how I kind of coincide with thetopic in some ways.
Ben Loy (06:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I think I would relate a lot. I think when
it comes to failure, often wewant to project this image of
being successful. We like tofeel good about what we do.
We like to feel like we're we'reaccomplishing often things. And
I think anytime we fall short ofthe expectations that we place
in our own heads and thestandards that we hold ourselves
(06:37):
to, it puts you up against notonly what do other people think
of me, but, like, is what Ithink of myself accurate? Or,
like, does this failure defineor I make a statement on on,
like, who I am or how I'm built.And obviously, logic would tell
you no. But often, I think whenyou're in in the middle of it,
(07:00):
what's most challenging is kindof parsing that apart.
Alex Judd (07:03):
Yeah. So This feels like, two threes on an enneagram
walking
Ben Loy (07:07):
Yeah.
Alex Judd (07:07):
Walking to a bar.
Ben Loy (07:08):
Yeah. Maybe maybe we should have put that disclaimer
Alex Judd (07:10):
Preface in that. Yeah. So I I guess that's a
question I would have. I thinkit's actually probably pretty
helpful that we're both threeson the Enneagram because I know
for a fact there are a lot ofour customers that are threes on
the Enneagram and a lot of ouraudiences because, you know,
I've hosted this podcast forfive years now, and I'm a three
on the Enneagram. And I speakabout the things that are most
challenging to me, and it turnsout people that are wired like
(07:31):
me respond to that.
Right? But I think within that,what are some of the ways that
you've observed, like, peoplerelate to or maybe are
challenged by the topic offailure if their personality is
wired different than you? Is aquestion that could be worth
asking. And maybe we look at,like, a couple different
(07:53):
personality types even on theEnneagram. So, like, a one is a
perfectionist.
Right. I'd be interested to knowif you relate to this. I often,
I I have a lot of friends thatare perfectionists. I have
family that's perfectionists andlike they are very interested in
is it perfect? And like myquestion is, did I win?
Right? Like, I'm like, I don'tcare if it's perfect or not.
(08:15):
It's not going to be perfect.Like I but so I guess I don't
really connect with the personthat, like, failure for them is
less than perfection. Thoughtsthere?
Ben Loy (08:25):
Yeah. Well, funny story. When I first took the
Enneagram, and this was, Ithink, maybe ten years ago now,
I scored equally as a one and athree. Okay. Interesting.
I think, like, after somereflection and actually reading
about the motivations andthings, like, it was pretty
clear that I was a three. But Ithink in the season that I was
in and just where I had comefrom, I presented like a one
(08:48):
because I did value, like, highquality perfection. You know, I
was really creative, and so alot of creative struggle with
this. It's like, you can createa piece of artwork and people
can look at it and go, oh,that's amazing. And then you
look at it and all you see is,like, the areas that you want to
change or adjust.
Right? Mhmm. So I think thattook some time for me to to step
(09:09):
back from. But yeah. I mean, fora one, I I think, like, failure
is just crushing if you're notoperating from a healthy space.
Alex Judd (09:18):
Yeah. Because you can't you don't have a worldview
that Like, make makes room forFor failure.
Ben Loy (09:24):
For failure.
Alex Judd (09:24):
Yeah. That's right. So it's interesting to think
about, like, we're using theEnneagram as a tool. I am
certainly not, an Enneagramdisciple. I think it's a helpful
tool, but there are some peoplethat go gaga over the Enneagram.
Kyle on our team, he's one ofour coaches. He's a five on the
Enneagram. Very processoriented, very methodical. And
(09:45):
I've learned a lot by workingwith Kyle in that, I I guess,
you know, we'd have to confirmwith him, but my perception is,
especially when he's creating atalk for us or something like
that, his, like, failure throughhis lens is almost like it's not
fully thought through or it'snot comprehensive. Right?
(10:07):
Like when he's working on atalk, it is it is like an
emotional process for himbecause he wants to create
something that gets to thebottom of every possible
question and objection. And he,like, he has to see the through
line on the whole thing. And soin some ways, I think five,
like, a for a five on theenneagram or someone that's more
(10:28):
process and method oriented,it's almost like failure is not
being able to connect a to z insome ways or not or not being
fully comprehensive in someways. And so very, motivated by
thinking things through andgetting the full picture. I
guess any other motives forfailure that you or or avoiding
(10:54):
failure or things like that thatyou observe in leaders in
particular?
Ben Loy (10:57):
Yeah. I mean, I think we've already touched on, like,
perception. Right? Like, what doother people think of me? I
think think if you're more wiredtowards the perfectionist
posture and and I don't thinkI've any of these, like, exist
in a vacuum.
I think often every leaderprobably walks through some
level of these challenges atdifferent capacities. Like, you
(11:20):
might struggle with one morethan the other. Sure. But, like,
in my mind, I mean, you'retalking about Kyle, like, being
committed to processes, enjoyinglike, I think in some respect,
like, every leader is gonnavalue and appreciate and want
certainty. And when thatcertainty is challenged, like,
you're gonna struggle.
Right? And so it's like, I thinkanyone can relate to that. I
(11:42):
think maybe someone who's morepredispositioned like Kyle might
struggle more with thatspecifically. But, yeah, I mean,
I think perception of others, Ithink your view of yourself or
your view of your work and yourcapacity could be affected. I
think your trust in a processor, yeah, your your desire for
certainty or your your maybeeven your belief around the
(12:04):
possibility of certainty couldbe challenged.
Alex Judd (12:06):
I don't know. I I just as you're saying that, one
came to mind for me. Earlier, Isaid that, like, the thing I'm
concerned with as an achiever isdid I win? Yeah. I actually
don't think that's correct.
I think, like, what I perceiveis, like, eights on the
enneagram, the challengers Yeah.They are concerned with did I
win? The thing that I'mconcerned with as an achiever
(12:26):
right? Hopefully the betterangels of my nature know how to
operate against this. And and Ican certainly say there's times
where I'm operating as a wise,healthy, centered leader where
this isn't my drivingmotivation.
But it's not even did I win?It's did I look like I won? And
and it's like, I think that iswhew. That is a lot of leaders
that it's like, don't even like,the the actual results don't
matter as much as, like, dopeople perceive me as being
(12:51):
successful? And I mean yeah.
So we're getting we're gettingto the heart of things real
quick of why I think this topicis so important for leaders to
park on for a bit is because thethe way your flesh views and
captures and engages withfailure reveals so much about
(13:11):
your heart, I think. And ifwe're not aware of our
tendencies or our shadow side inthat, I think it's probably just
gonna run wild in some ways.
Ben Loy (13:20):
Yeah. Well, I guess we already pointed out how it can
(15:04):
be challenging. Maybe what aresome tendencies that leaders
could have that would cause themto operate from an unhealthy
spot when it comes to failure?
Alex Judd (15:15):
I I think this is related. One of the things that
I was thinking about as I waspreparing for this conversation
is, like, a nuance that I wasexcited to get into with you
because I think it's one that I,at least, don't often hear
talked about, and that's thatthere's a distinction between
failure of character and failureof performance. Yeah. Yep.
(15:37):
Right?
Like and we just say, oh, that'sa failure. But oftentimes, like,
the way we talk about failure ofperformance, especially in
business and leadership culture,is very different than the way
we think and talk about failureof character. But sometimes we
just use the word failure tocover all
Ben Loy (15:53):
of it.
Alex Judd (15:54):
Mhmm. Right? And I I mean, I I guess what I mean by
that is like, you know, we saycelebrate failure or celebrate
mistakes or like celebrate,like, you know, all of that. And
it's like, what that isreferring to is we we can
celebrate mistakes or evenfailures, although I think there
might even be some issues withthat in performance because
(16:14):
that's en route to learning andgrowth. We don't celebrate
failure of character.
Mhmm. Like, if someone isexperiencing, failure of
integrity, break breakdown ofmotive. Right? Like, if they're
coming at things in a way thatisn't humble but is prideful or
isn't others oriented but isselfish, we don't celebrate that
(16:35):
and be like, that's awesome.Right?
Absolutely not. And so for me, Ithink it was helpful to kinda
spend some time thinking aboutthere's a difference between
failure of character and failureperformance, but I think this is
where it gets to your question,tendencies. I think a lot of
times when we work too hard toavoid failure and performance,
(16:59):
that's actually what leads tofailure in character
Ben Loy (17:01):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (17:01):
Is what I was thinking about. Yeah. Do you get
what I'm saying there?
Ben Loy (17:04):
No. I mean, it makes me it makes me think of, like so in
in the instance of if you'refocused on the perception on,
like, other people'sperceptions. Right? If you fail
or you're experiencing failurein an area, your gut reaction or
your tendency might just be tohide it.
Alex Judd (17:20):
Right? Cover it up or lie.
Ben Loy (17:22):
Yep. Which is obviously, like, a huge, huge
character issue. Right?
Alex Judd (17:27):
Yeah. And I think that's an area that I've had to
grow a lot is, like, if my gutreaction is to hide performance
mistakes that I made, well, thatcan lead to failure of
character. And and I think it'ssanctification is learning to
make your gut reaction toapologize and ask for grace
(17:49):
instead of to hide in
Ben Loy (17:50):
some ways.
Alex Judd (17:51):
Yeah. But the other thing that I would say as a
tendency or as a means ofcreating a failure of character
or making the environment ripefor a failure of character would
be, like, if you don't have aworldview that makes room for
failure of performance Mhmm.Then you will feel the need to
(18:15):
always be on. Like, you you cannever, Gerald Nichols was part
of our coaching community forsuch a long time. He's just a
leader that I respect so much.
He's this guy from Texix thatowns an electrical company. He
and he would just always see.He's like, as a leader, you
gotta find some time to let yourhair down. It's like, Gerald,
you don't have enough hair tolet down. But, but I I think,
(18:37):
like, that is very, very true.
And what he's referring to thereis, like, it's not sustainable
for you to feel like you alwayshave to be on, for you to feel
like you have to project thisimage in front of everyone. The
perceived need to do that, Ithink, is what often results in
your off space being incrediblyunhealthy because you you need
(18:59):
escapes in some ways. Yeah. Sowhat do you
Ben Loy (19:03):
think it looks like to fail well?
Alex Judd (19:05):
You're kinda hitting the two poles here of, like,
what, like, what's the worstpossible means of failure, which
is probably failure ofcharacter, fail well. I think
the standard go to businessanswer is learn from it. And I I
agree with that. I think thatthat's obviously good. Right?
But I think there's when wereally talk about failing well
(19:27):
and and for me, the word failingtakes on more weight. Like, the
I'm I'm now making or drawing aline between mistakes and
failures. Mhmm. Like, if youactually fail, if you really
screwed up, I think you've gottaacknowledge it. And in
acknowledging it, what we'rereally talking about there is
confess it and request grace forit.
(19:50):
And I think requesting grace islike, to fail well, you have to
request grace from God and fromothers, the people that were
affected. And if you feel any,like, buck against, like, I
don't wanna ask for forgiveness,recognize you are on the ride of
pride. Right? Like, if you'redoing that so, I mean, we're
(20:11):
using very spiritual language,acknowledgment, confession,
repentance. Right?
Like, the Greek word forrepentance is literally like
teshuva, to, like, turn around a180 degrees. Like, do different
things to get different results.I'd like to go into more on the,
like, Toshuva idea from aleadership perspective, but I'd
(20:31):
like to hear anything you'd addon failing well.
Ben Loy (20:34):
Well, I really like the distinguishment you just made
between failure versus mistakes.Like, so how would you define a
mistake versus a failure?
Alex Judd (20:41):
Turning this into another question for me. Yeah.
How how would we define thedifference between the two?
Ben Loy (20:47):
Yeah. Because is mistake void of, I guess, any
character or moral failure.
Alex Judd (20:57):
I mean, I'm trying to think about how we actually use
the language.
Ben Loy (21:00):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (21:00):
And I, you know, I think someone could very easily
say this is a semanticsconversation. But the way we use
the language, I think, is like,if I say I made a mistake, it's
like there was a typo on anemail, or I said something a
little bit offhand in a meetingthat I'm apologizing for or
something like that. For me, ifI say I failed, it communicates
(21:25):
something more chronic,something more internal, and
something more prolonged is whatcomes to mind for me. And I I
think the language feels deeperprobably because the reality is
deeper, and if you say I failed,like, you're kind of reckoning
with this is deeper than just atypo in some ways. Right?
(21:46):
Like, I mean, if I made a typo,you're not sitting down with me
and be like, is everythingalright with your heart, Alex?
Like, it's like, no. Like, Imade a typo, dude. Right?
Ben Loy (21:54):
Yeah.
Alex Judd (21:54):
So I don't know. What are your thoughts there?
Ben Loy (21:57):
That's funny because then I have the thought of,
like, okay, if someone makes aadministrative mistake, right,
of some kind, that could lead tofailure depending on how they
receive feedback, like how theyprocess through it. Right? I
mean Sure. Theoretically.Something small could be just
depending on where and how,like, how they respond to it and
(22:20):
how they process through itcould turn into failure in some
capacity.
Alex Judd (22:24):
Yeah.
Ben Loy (22:25):
So So it's not so much it's not so much the mechanism
as much as it is, like, theinternal response, which I think
you you pointed to.
Alex Judd (22:33):
Right? Yeah. Okay. We're gonna go exploring here.
So as you say that, what comesto mind for me is sin.
The Greek word for sin ishamartia Mhmm. Which is an
archery term. Mhmm. Right? Itmeans, like, to miss the mark.
Right? And so, you know, do donot pull out your bible and use
(22:55):
it against me right now becauseI I'm definitely saying, like,
even the Bible doesn't alwaysuse the Greek word for sin. So
let's keep that in mind. But tomiss the mark. If we're
operating with the definition ofto miss the mark, then is a typo
Yeah.
Right? It probably is. But the,that's a that's a difference.
(23:17):
Like, you miss the mark, but, Imean, when oftentimes when we
refer to the topic of sin, whatwe're talking about is prideful
rebellion against God. How doesa typo become prideful rebellion
against God?
And I think what you justalluded to with admit like, is
what's your spirit around it?Yeah. Is your spirit around it
(23:40):
like, oh, man, I screwed thatup. Why? Because I'm human and I
make mistakes and I need gracefor my mistakes.
Or is it like, I didn't makethat typo. That wasn't my fault.
Or like, what? You you don't getto correct me on this. Right?
Or you are above correction orthings like that. Like, well,
now I think we're actuallygetting into prideful rebellion
(24:03):
where you are cursing the idealin some ways. Like instead of
being willing to humbly receivegrace for the fact that you made
a mistake, you're now shakingyour fist at the idea that words
should be typed correctly insome ways. Yeah. I just picture
a secretary going, curse.
Ben Loy (24:25):
How does that show up?
Alex Judd (24:26):
Oh, man. Well, I feel like in an exploration
conversation like this, what Ineed from you now is like, dude,
do do you think I just went waytoo far out?
Ben Loy (24:36):
No. I mean, I might the first thing that came to mind
for me when you were talkingabout where, like, where the
heart is and, I mean, thisobviously wasn't a failure at
all, but, like, Jesus healing onthe Sabbath. It's like Mhmm. The
Pharisees were so obsessed withthe religiosity and the process
of the law that they, like,completely missed the mark on
the heart behind, like, who Godis. Mhmm.
(24:59):
Right? Yeah.
Alex Judd (25:00):
So okay. So how does that connect to mistake versus
failure or mistake versus sin?
Ben Loy (25:06):
I think like an overemphasis or a I mean, in
many ways, like, it evenoveremphasizing your own
failures can be a form of pride.Like, if you're
Alex Judd (25:16):
Yeah.
Ben Loy (25:17):
If you're so focused on perfectionism or being yeah. Or
whatever it is that happened.Right? If you're just so focused
on your failure and you're notable to look up from that, I
think it can almost grow intoits own form of an idol. Right?
Alex Judd (25:33):
Man, that's so good. So I'm I'm reading a book right
now called The Quest forGodliness. It's written by a guy
named J. I. Packer.
And I did not know this wheneverI bought the book. I was like,
that sounds like a cool title.Like, basically judged a book by
its cover. It's exactly what Idid. And what it essentially is,
is a condensed history of thePuritan movement.
(25:54):
And I, like, I got finished withpage one. I was like, wow, this
is gonna be
Ben Loy (25:59):
Seems on brand for J. I.
Alex Judd (26:01):
Patrick. Yeah. I was like, this could be a quest.
This will be interesting. So oneof the first things he
highlights is that, like, whenwe hear the word puritan, we
have thoughts in our heads andso often, this was definitely
true for me, the thoughts thatare that are get struck in our
heads about what Puritans areare not what Puritans actually
were.
One thing that is true, if youread any Puritan prayers like
(26:23):
the Valley of Vision or if youread any Puritan literature like
John Owens or things like that,is, like, they spend so much
time talking about sin. Theyspend a lot of time talking
about sin. And I think that'swhere people often get the
misconception that if you are apuritan preacher or a puritan in
(26:45):
some ways, you're like fire andbrimstone, just absolutely
exactly what you said. You arepridefully engaging with failure
where you're making this aboutyou, and you're just depressive
in some ways. And what he reallyhighlights is, like, that does
not at all connect with truepuritanism because what these
people were is they were sointimately aware of their
(27:09):
limitations, and they spent timewith their limitations, the
areas where they fell short.
But then that was always pairedtheologically with deep seated
acknowledgment and recognitionof the all sufficiency of God
for their inadequacy. And thethe end result of that was not
(27:29):
depression. It was likeabounding joy because it's like,
man, I see how weak I am. But inseeing just how weak I am and
just how sinful I am, I see howgreat God is and and how perfect
grace is, and out of that I getto move forward. And it's like,
I think sometimes we miss out onhow good God is because we don't
(27:52):
acknowledge how bad we are.
Yeah. If I were to put it on abumper sticker. Yeah.
Ben Loy (27:56):
Yeah. Well, because, like, true humility isn't I
mean, it's funny because peoplepeople look at humility and it's
like, their view of that is, oh,woe is low is me or woe is me or
I'm, you know I mean, I feellike that's a common language,
especially, like, in reformcircles. Right? There's Self
deprecation. Yeah.
Exactly. And and then the re thereality of that is, like, that's
(28:17):
not actually humility becauseyou're still navel gazing. Like,
you're still you're stilllooking inward
Alex Judd (28:23):
on life. Yourself at this point. Yeah.
Ben Loy (28:26):
And, like, true humility is is having a right
view and understanding of whoGod is. And so, like, looking
up, understanding who he is, andthen through that, in that
informs, like, your failure andyour need for grace. And then
from that, a heart of ofthankfulness and gratefulness.
Right?
Alex Judd (28:44):
Mhmm.
Ben Loy (28:44):
So
Alex Judd (29:47):
So in a leadership context, how do you communicate
well on the back end of a teamfailure? So so we're probably
now talking about failureperformance.
Ben Loy (30:03):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (30:04):
Right? And I think so often, there's lessons on goal
setting and vision casting, andthey tell us to set goals that
are 50 to 70% achievable becausethat's a BHAG that we're gonna
go run after. But, I mean, thereare remarkably few good lessons
on, well, if it was 50%achievable, there was a 50%
(30:24):
chance that you didn't hit it.And how do you lead in and
through that? How do youcommunicate through that?
So that's something that Ireally wanted to explore with
you is what have you experiencedfrom other leaders in that that
do that well? What have youobserved or any thoughts you
have on that?
Ben Loy (30:41):
I guess in the team setting, was this a, like, team
oriented goal, or was this,like, the failure of the leader
specifically or maybe anindividual in the group?
Alex Judd (30:52):
Let's say it's a team. Let's say we set a big
hairy audacious goal of we'regonna hit 5,000,000 in annual
revenue by the end of the year.Right? And that's a 25% increase
in business. Right?
And that was a goal that we weregoing for. And maybe we even
pursued the the goal in ahealthy way. Right? So sometimes
(31:12):
we can get a little bit tooantsy around revenue goals, but
it's like they're not alwaysbad. And maybe we even pursued
the goal in a healthy way.
We just didn't hit it. And maybewe hit four or four and a half
and we grew, but we didn't quitehit five. And so now people look
at it and we say, well, red,yellow, green were red. We
didn't we missed the mark. Whatdo you do then?
Ben Loy (31:34):
Yeah. I mean, I guess it depends on the like, why that
revenue goal was in that in thatcontext. Like, it'd be why was
that goal set? Right? Was it setout of a a reactionary, like,
we're in a really bad place andwe need to get to this spot to
Alex Judd (31:48):
be free. Operate from the posture because this is what
I witnessed the most of we're ina good spot. We're growing.
We're moving forward. We're ahealthy organization.
And now we have decided as ateam, the next right step is we
want to try and grow and expandthe business. And we think we
think it's going be hard, but wethink we could hit 5,000,000 by
the end of the year.
Ben Loy (32:07):
And then and then it doesn't happen.
Alex Judd (32:09):
And then we hit four.
Ben Loy (32:10):
Yeah. I mean, I think, like, a good leader would frame
that in a way that's like, hey,we we did not reach the goal
that we set out to reach, but,like, ultimately, the business
still grew. And it I think it'sand acknowledging the work that
your team put in to accomplishthat goal and I think
celebrating that. On the flipside of that, having some level
(32:33):
of standards. So if if it'slike, oh, if we reach 5,000,000
by the end of the year, we'regonna have a retreat celebration
of some kind.
Right? I think maybe holdingthat line of like, hey, we're
not actually going like, this isthe this is the line that we
drew, and so we're not actuallygoing to celebrate because we
(32:53):
didn't cross the goal, but thenultimately, like, we can still
be proud of what weaccomplished. Mhmm.
Alex Judd (32:58):
You know,
Ben Loy (32:58):
being able to frame that in a way that that's still
inspiring and doesn't crushpeople's spirits Mhmm. And,
like, keeps them motivated.
Alex Judd (33:06):
Mhmm. Well, one of the things that you already
highlighted is I have actuallyhad conversations with leaders
before where they say, hey,we're in q four, and all signs
are pointing to, like, we're notgonna hit this thing. Or, like,
we didn't hit the goal. Mhmm.And then they say, do I mention
it?
Or do I just, like and and it'svery tempting Yeah. To be very
(33:29):
vocal in the setting of goals,but then not at all be vocal in
the evaluation of goals when wedon't hit them.
Ben Loy (33:37):
So that was actually my first thought when you were
talking about it was I was like,I feel like in my act in my
experience, when lofty goalshave been set and they haven't
been accomplished, I feel likethey often just go away
silently. Like, nobody it's likeit's like this elephant in the
room that we're just gonna,like, continue to walk by and
operate around until it shrinksuntil something else gets big
(33:58):
enough that, like, we'redistracted and we just kind of
forget about it.
Alex Judd (34:01):
What's the so we've obviously both clarified that we
both don't think that that's theright approach as
Ben Loy (34:07):
a leader.
Alex Judd (34:07):
No. What's the damage that that does? I think
Ben Loy (34:10):
trust takes a really big hit from, like, if you are a
leader and you've set a goal andthen something like that happens
and then you choose to justignore that reality, like, I
think you're going to lose trustin the people that are following
you, like, without a doubt.Because not only is does it show
(34:30):
a like, the the reason why thatgoal wasn't met could be a
million different reasons. Butthen the failure to acknowledge
it shows that, like, your wordsand, like, the commitment that
you supposedly had in thesetting of this goal and the
vision casting aren't actuallybacked by, like, your character
and and follow through. And Ithink that that's really, really
hard as, like, someone who'strying to follow someone. Like,
(34:52):
you you can't trust what they'regonna say Mhmm.
Or that, like, what they thegoals that they set they're
actually going to work towardsand and even acknowledge when it
comes to the hard parts of it,the failures, and things like
that.
Alex Judd (35:05):
So That that's right. I think that's right. Because,
you know, if you're a goodvision caster, you put your
heart into it, you put yourpassion into it, you you
energize people, you you callout the best in others and say
the thing you you say the thingsthat you believe are on the team
that could help you get thisgoal. That's if you're a good
vision caster. And if you're abad vision caster, then that's
(35:25):
your failure.
Right?
Ben Loy (35:26):
Yeah. But if
Alex Judd (35:27):
you're a good vision caster, you do all those things.
And then if you get a year downthe road and you don't
acknowledge that, like,basically you were wrong, trust,
it's like, do people what dopeople when they say I don't
trust, they're either saying Idon't trust your competency or I
don't trust your integrity.
Ben Loy (35:42):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (35:42):
And maybe in this situation, both are certainly
not I don't trust his integrity,but it certainly, like, becomes
a little bit gray because it'slike, is it that he knows, but
he's he's Yeah. Like, coveringit up a little bit, or they
don't trust your competency?Like, does he just not know? Did
he forget about the goal that heset? And and both of those are
(36:04):
sow seeds of doubt
Ben Loy (36:06):
Yep.
Alex Judd (36:06):
Into what's actually going on.
Ben Loy (36:08):
Well, and in many ways, like, the the more effective you
are at casting vision, like, themore damage that's gonna do on
the back end. Mhmm. Right? Like,if you're if you're incredible
at casting vision, gettingpeople excited, driving it with
purpose, and, like, people areare connecting with that in a
big way, the fallback on you notonly not meeting that goal and
(36:32):
following through, but then notacknowledging it is gonna be so
much greater than if you werelike, hey, let's just accomplish
this one thing and then goesaway.
Alex Judd (36:40):
Yeah. That's right. The other thing that stands out
to me as to why it's actuallynot in a a leader's best
interest to just shove it underthe rug and be like, bet people
forgot about it, is thestandards you apply yourself to
collectively always becomestandards that people adopt
individually. So if you showpeople collectively,
(37:02):
organizationally, we are willingto just basically ignore
failures, you're now givingeveryone on the team a lesson
that, like, when you makeindividual mistakes, the the
strategy that we apply ourselfto or the standard that we apply
ourself to here is we can justshove it under the rug. And if
you're asking for individualownership but not taking
(37:23):
organizational ownership, peopleare gonna experience I mean,
they're gonna be like, this ishypocrisy.
Right? Like, we can't like,that's not fair. Yeah. And so I
think we should expect from thewhole what we expect from the
individual. But then, you know,in some ways, this is why I I
just this could sound bad, but Ilook at people that lead a
business, like, that lead asmall business in particular
(37:45):
that don't know what their faithis, and I look at those people
like they have four eyes justbecause I think it I don't know
how I would do that.
Mhmm. I I literally don't knowhow I would do it because my
faith tells me what I believe intells me some a message that I
can also extend to our team islike, hey, we failed, and, like,
we did not hit the mark, or wedid not do what we set out to
(38:08):
do. It's a good thing we are notwhat we do. Right. Right?
Like, it's a good thing, like,our value as people certainly,
but even as a team does not comefrom strictly our individual
performance, and it's a goodthing we believe in grace. Like,
I think you can and should talkabout that. And I actually think
(38:29):
that, like, that is a necessaryconversation in the building of
a mature team
Ben Loy (38:36):
in some ways. And I don't know how you navigate that
conversation without bringingGod into the picture. Right?
Like
Alex Judd (38:44):
Well, and that's that's the thing. People would
say, well, you could say, well,I'm not a person of faith, but,
I mean, I believe in all thosethings. We are not what we do.
We, like, can receive grace and,like, we can move forward out of
that. And it's like, oh, so youare a person of faith.
Right. You believe in something.
Ben Loy (39:01):
Yeah.
Alex Judd (39:01):
We we have not clarified yet what you believe.
Yeah. But the idea of, like, I'mnot a person of faith No.
Ben Loy (39:08):
I I guess the way I view that is, like, okay, if
you're if you're saying whatyou're not and you're it's okay.
We're not gonna identify as ourfailures. We're not gonna
identify as whatever. And you godown this list, like, you're
you're emptying a void. Like,what are you filling that with?
Mhmm. Right? Like, if you itbecause there's there's a lot of
problems to okay. If we're notour failures, are we our
successes? Because there's a lotof problems with identifying
(39:30):
with that as well.
Right? Like, if if we're
Alex Judd (39:33):
Or culturally, you are not your failures. You are
what you perceive you to be.Yep. Like in like, the the hero
in that story is the individual.Yep.
And your self identification hasbecome God in that scenario.
Ben Loy (39:48):
Which changes, like Oh, yeah. Dramatically in life
seasons and as, like, hardshipcomes and, I mean, even, like,
in in highs and lows, like, yourown perception of yourself is so
volatile. And any any, like,counselor or therapist can tell
you is something that, like, youcan more or less work to change
(40:10):
just through, like, thinking.
Alex Judd (40:12):
Yeah. So That so that's how I think about blessed
are the poor in spirit fortheirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Like, blessed are the poor inspirit. Oftentimes, like, I see
two approaches to life andleadership. Approach one is
inadequacy.
Right? I am not enough. I'm notenough. I'll never be enough,
(40:36):
and it's nihilistic. It'sdepressive.
It's negative. You are you aredwelling in your total
inadequacy. I am not enough.Culture swings the pendulum the
other way and says, you don'tlisten to that voice. You don't
use that self talk.
You are enough. Like, you listento me. You are enough. And you
just should just stand in themorning and look in the mirror
(40:58):
every single morning and say, Iam enough. Right?
And and I think blessed are thepoor in spirit is not that.
Right? Like, are those whorealize how spiritually bankrupt
they are and how totally just Imean, at the bottom of things
they are. I am not enough, butChrist in me is enough. Right?
(41:18):
Like, on my own, I am so farfrom adequate. It's not even
funny, and I can understandthat, but Christ in me is
enough. And so that's where it'slike some of these cultural
messages, like, people will tellyou, you are not a failure.
Right? Well, is that a Christianmessage?
Because maybe you are, butpraise God, like, you are not
your worst actions and, like,you you were not victorious. He
(41:43):
was victorious, and so now youmay have life in some ways.
Yeah. I Not I should correctthat. Not in some ways.
Like, I in all ways.
Ben Loy (41:51):
Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, one of the one of my favorite
things about reading through theOld Testament is because peep a
lot of people will parse the Oldand the New Testament and it's
like, oh, you've got you've got,like, the feathered hair, Jesus,
like, loving God who accepts youfor who you are, and then you
have, like, the Old Testament,like, judgment, destruction.
Alex Judd (42:10):
I I heard it was Erwin McManus say it recently.
He was like, lots of peopleperceive, like, the Old
Testament God as the God ofwrath, anger, and fire, and then
he went to a therapist, and weget Jesus. Yeah. That is how we
often perceive
Ben Loy (42:22):
what I've But, like, when you really read
intentionally through the OldTestament, I mean, what it is,
it's just a continued story of,like, God just continually
redeeming, redeeming andrestoring, and redeeming and
restoring. And, and it justshows up in so many subtle ways.
I mean, the one of the biblestudies, the bible study I go to
(42:43):
on Tuesdays that I'm in, like,we're going through Joshua right
now and the story of Jericho andRahab. Like, a prostitute, a
gentile is redeemed and even,like, is then woven into the
bloodline of Jesus. Mhmm.
And, like, God is just, like,taking people from these far
(43:05):
corners of the earth andrestoring them. Right? And I
think what's even moreinteresting, something we talked
about was Rahab's son based onthat that same bloodline, it was
Boaz who was like I mean, all inall, it's something that someone
that people look up to as aleader and a man and who, like,
loves and cares for women well.And, like, his his mother was
(43:27):
prostitute. That's right.
Like, it's it's so interesting.And I mean, there's just there
are there are so many bits andpieces of that that just it's
like, I call them mini gospels.It's like God is just, like,
sprinkling in his character andhis redemption to, like, point
us towards Jesus.
Alex Judd (43:42):
Yeah. You know? I think it was Karl Marx that said
religion is the opiate of themasses. I think it was Karl
Marx. That that would be thefirst time I've quoted Karl Marx
on this podcast.
Plan to not make a habit ofthat. But if that's the case, if
religion, particularly ifChristian religion is the opiate
of the masses, why why would youmake it so real? Like, Noah is,
(44:06):
I think, a great example. Right?Like, this is such a, like,
excellent archetypal story of,like, man lives apart from his
generation and is able toprepare for and prophesy the
future and honestly take actionsso that himself, his family,
(44:27):
humanity, and creation ispreserved.
And because of his integrityfilled actions, he wades through
the storm and survives theflood. That's a beautiful ending
to that story that wouldprobably pretty effectively work
as the opiate of the masses.Unfortunately, there's there's a
(44:48):
little snippet towards the endof that where it's like Noah
gets drunk, and he ends up nakedand made fun of by his sons and
is basically ashamed as a foolvery close to the end of his
life in the narrative. And it'slike, I mean, failure. Right?
That that is not a mistake. Thatis a failure in some ways. And I
(45:10):
I think sometimes if we're notcareful, we gloss over those
parts and just tell the mylittle kid's bible version to
ourselves. The problem is, like,we're adults now and, like, we
need to have a worldview thatacknowledges for humanity in
Noah because I am a human too.Mhmm.
(45:33):
And if I can't see it in Noah, Icertainly won't be able to see
it in myself.
Ben Loy (45:36):
Yeah. One of the biggest inclinations, I think,
when people read the Bible andespecially read the Old
Testament is they will they willplace themselves and, like, I
try to identify with the hero inthe story in a way that is, oh,
like, I either need to be morelike him or, like, this is who
we should be. And I think sooften in especially if you
(45:57):
really read all the way through,those people end up failing at
some point. And I think, like,understanding where we are in
the story is so important. Like,we we are not the hero.
Like and that is just that isthe reality. And, like, I I
think having an understandingthat brings you to a place of
(46:17):
humility and dependence on Godis honestly the the answer to
how to walk through failurewell.
Alex Judd (46:23):
I've shared this with you. Like, I'm going through the
old testament right now. I juststarted Lamentations this
morning, which woof. You and hertalk about, like, coinciding
with your failure. Right?
But when you actually start fromthe beginning and walk through
all of these mini gospels insome ways, whenever you find a
(46:44):
short snippet of someone thattruly was honorable and
righteous and then they wereburied, it is like, I mean, a
little treasure. And what'scrazy is those stories actually
aren't very long. Like, the onethat's coming to mind, I think
his name was Hezekiah. And,like, you, like, read it and
you're like, this guy didn't getnearly as much space as David
(47:08):
did. Like, he didn't get nearlyas much airtime as David did,
but it appears as though in theshort snippets we've got, he
seemed like he was much morehonorable.
And and but the thing that istrue about Hezekiah is, like, he
kept God as the hero for hisentire life, it seems like, and,
like, was able to keep thatfront and center. Whereas David
(47:29):
or Saul got into trouble maybeat the very moment that they
started to perceive themselvesas the hero or the arbitrator or
or the aggressor versus beingsubmitted to the will of God.
Ben Loy (47:44):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (47:45):
How do you take responsibility as a leader for a
failure of it, of a team, right,or or even multiple people were
involved in something? How doyou take responsibility without
simultaneously stealingresponsibility? Is the question
that I have. And and I'mactually being a very particular
(48:05):
story whenever I'm asking thisquestion is one of my first jobs
out of college, I, it was socool. I was running a leadership
development group.
We were hosting leadershipdevelopment events. They were
going super well. And I I wasalways so grateful for how much
ownership I felt in the rolethat I had. And, like, I got to
make decisions. I I got to becreative, all of that stuff.
(48:25):
Right? And I thrived on that. Wedo an event where the event went
well. The speaker that we hadfor the event was a dud. It was
bad.
No. Which was the centerpiece ofthe event. Right? And, like, we
chose a speaker for the eventthat we did not properly vet,
and it just was bad. And we hadall these people there.
We had done a great jobmarketing. Unfortunately, good
(48:47):
marketing of a bad product
Ben Loy (48:48):
Back is to casting vision really Exactly. Well and
not
Alex Judd (48:52):
And I'll never forget, I sat down with my boss
at the time, and I started tosay, like, I'm so sorry, like,
I'm so sorry, like, we met andhe stopped me and he said, Alex,
don't say another word. This wason me. This was my fault. Like,
I should have done x y z. I takefull responsibility for this.
(49:13):
This was absolutely on me. Don'tsay another word. To which you
could think I would leave thatfeeling good. I actually left
that feeling awful because I waslike, I thought I had a role in
this thing. Yeah.
Like, I thought I was making adifference, and it turns out,
like, I don't actually haveresponsibility. Yeah. But I've
always looked at that and beenlike, if I put myself in his
(49:34):
shoes, I don't know that I wouldhave done something different.
Like, we could look at what hedid and said, man, that's a good
leader right there. But theeffect that it had on me doesn't
actually feel like what youwould want a leader's impact to
be.
Ben Loy (49:48):
Yeah. I think one of the things this is, I mean, a
really common principle inleadership in general and how to
lead others well is making surethat they have ownership in
their role.
Alex Judd (49:57):
Sure.
Ben Loy (49:57):
And I think most often we think of that being, oh, make
sure that they're they arewinning. They feel like they're
winning. They feel like theyhave a say and have agency and
are heard. The flip side of thatthat same coin could be removing
that ownership through failure.Right?
Like, making sure that not onlyare they owning the role and
(50:19):
their successes, but, like,maybe they have they do have to
own the mistakes and thefailures and the results of that
role. Yes. And so when youremove the other side of that,
it it really just neutralizesthat entire experience.
Alex Judd (50:35):
That's right. So I I thought of this this morning,
and I and I hadn't thought aboutit in this context, but it was
actually really helpful. Thiswill probably air let's see.
This episode will probably airright before Texas plays Ohio
State in week one of the collegefootball season. Praise God.
It's back. Thank goodness.Right? I'm so excited because
(50:56):
now are all of my collegefootball references are gonna be
relevant again. So so collegefootball, I just love because I
think it's such an illustrationof so many real world principles
playing out in real time andvery black and white.
And one of the topics that Iwrote down that I wanted to get
into today that we kind oftouched on but didn't really get
into is like, gray failure isreally hard for a leader. Like,
(51:19):
the thing I love about collegefootball is it's black and
white. You won or you lost.Right? A lot of times, it's a
lot more gray in leadership.
Like, was that all my fault? Isthat a loss or is that partially
a win? There's some redeemingqualities. In college football,
it's a win or a loss. When thecollege football team loses and
they had a bad performance, likean awful performance, the coach
(51:39):
goes into the press conferenceafterwards.
What should that coach say inthat moment? It is in his best
interest and everyone's bestinterest to say, this is on me.
This is my fault. I take fullresponsibility. And there are
coaches.
One of them has the first nameof Jimbo that literally his
press conferences would be theplays were all there. It was
(52:01):
just execution, which isliterally code for it's the
player's fault. It's not myfault. Right? But the good coach
in that situation, and we willsee this this fall, the good
coach will stand in front of thepress room and they will say,
this is all on me.
Then what I was thinking aboutis, okay, that's in the press
room. That's publicly. That'sthe group setting all of that.
(52:21):
Then they leave the press room.Do you think that they're going
in to the locker room andsaying, y'all don't have
anything to work on this week?
That that loss was all on me.I'm gonna go get my act
together, but y'all are good.No. Right. He's probably talking
individually with particularcoaches, particular players that
(52:45):
made mistakes or weren'tproperly prepared or didn't show
correct effort or or made a dumbdumb move or something like
that.
And working with them on theirresponsibility as it related to
the overall loss. So I thinkthere's a there's a good lesson
there in that it's like publiclyand even collectively, I take
(53:06):
responsibility for all of it.But part of me taking
responsibility for the whole isthen having the individual
conversations so that peopletake individual ownership of the
things that they could have doneto create a different outcome in
some ways.
Ben Loy (53:20):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (53:20):
And and I I'd like to get your thoughts on this too
before we close out. But I thinkwhat I experienced in that
moment that I talked aboutearlier with my boss was the the
press conference being correct.Like, he did exactly what he
should have done, but there wasnever that locker room moment or
that office moment where I wasforced to reckon with the role
(53:42):
that I could have played that Ididn't play to create a better
result in some ways.
Ben Loy (53:47):
Yeah. That's a really good example just in publicly
owning the role that you have asa leader, like, in the impact.
Like, as a head coach, you'regonna have a huge impact on the
culture, the way the team plays,the strat I mean, like,
everything from the top down.Right? But then at on the flip
side of that, the reality isyou're dealing with a team of
human beings and human beingsfail.
(54:10):
That's right. You know? And sobeing able to own the
responsibility of the decisionsthat were made, the the the
strategy that was taken, andjust how the game went in
general, but then turning aroundand and for your team coming
with their respective of like,okay, what went well? What can
we improve? What are the areasthat we need to work on?
(54:32):
And, like, having more grace, Iguess.
Alex Judd (54:36):
Yeah. I'm definitely not advocating. I feel like this
is important to say. Like, I amdefinitely not advocating for
make sure you present the imagethat that you're saying this is
all my fault. Yeah.
But then in your head, you'rethinking like, this is actually
their fault. And like, I'm gonnamake sure they they know about
that and we work on them. Youryour literal job is to prepare
(54:58):
them to be successful and togive them everything they need
to be successful. So if theyweren't successful, all roads
lead to you in some ways. So butI think maybe what we're
breaking down here is it's noteither or, it's yes and.
Are you fully responsible?Absolutely, you are. Do they
have a role to play that leadsto the success and failure of
(55:21):
what you're doing? Absolutely,they do. Both are true, and we
don't we shouldn't say it's oneor the other.
Because the minute you get intoone or the other, you're now
basically just blaming isessentially what you're doing.
Ben Loy (55:33):
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Judd (55:34):
Okay. Is there anything else on the topic of
failure that we should explorein the remaining time we have?
Ben Loy (55:39):
I don't think we have much remaining time. Excellent.
Alex Judd (55:42):
Very good. Okay. Well, I'm eager to see what our
next exploration conversationis. Sounds great. Well, there
you have it.
Thanks so much for joining usfor this episode. If you want
any of the information orresources that we mentioned,
that's all in the show notes.Hey, before you go, could I ask
you for one quick favor? Couldyou subscribe, rate, and review
(56:04):
this podcast episode? Yourfeedback is what helps our team
engage in a sequence of neverending improvement.
We wanna amplify what's valuableto you and obviously reduce or
even remove the things thataren't. Also, you leaving a
positive review is what helps usconnect with, build trust with,
and serve other leaders aroundthe country. So thanks in
(56:25):
advance for helping us out onthat front. Are you a leader
that wants to grow your businessin a healthy way, serve people
exceptionally well, and glorifyGod in the process. Go to
pathforgrowth.com to get moreinformation about our community
of impact driven leaders andschedule a call with our team.
Hey, thank you so much to thePath for Growth team, Kyle
(56:46):
Cummings and the crew atPodCircle, and the remarkable
leaders that are activelyengaged in the path for growth
community. Y'all are the peoplethat make this podcast possible.
Y'all know this. We're rootingfor you. We're praying for you.
We wanna see you win. Remember,my strength is not for me. Your
strength is not for you. Ourstrength is for service. Let's
(57:06):
go.
Let's go. Let's go.
So in the interest of building in public right now, we
we said, man, we're gonna launcha video channel. And then we
were like, we're gonna outfitthis room inside my house. But
we're like, well, we wanna dosomething with that door. Let's
install a hidden door before we,before we launch this thing. And
then we're like, we don't needto wait.
So literally the contractor'sbeen been in here all week.
(00:23):
There's still a hole in thiswall that we covered up, but
this studio is very much a workin progress right now is what we
would say. But I I personally amglad we started.
Ben Loy (00:32):
Yep. I would agree.
Alex Judd (00:34):
So the second thing is that one of the things that
we are really excited about withthe video channel that we're now
launching is the differentformats that we want to test in
terms of content andconversation. And so we just
kind of wanted to prep peoplewith what that's going to look
like because you're going toexperience all three of these
(00:54):
formats moving forward andthere's one particularly that
we're going to do for the firsttime today. So the first is very
standard guest interview. Thereare people that we know have
established leadership roles andexperiences or have an
irresistible message that we'reso pumped to have some of those
people on here. And some ofthem, like, maybe a household
name, some of them might besomeone you never heard of, but
(01:16):
they are just so good on thetopic that they're interested
in, and we're pumped to talk tothose people in here.
So that that's guest interviews.The second one are topics that
are more teaching oriented.Right? So these are going to be
kind of maybe not fullypredefined, but largely
predefined outlines that we aregoing to walk through together.
Maybe you and I, maybe some ofthe members of our team, maybe
other leaders that we reallyrespect and say, we're gonna
(01:40):
walk through content that isreally based on the multitude of
leaders that we've coached,learned from, the things that
we've experienced in buildingour business, and we're gonna
distill that down into reallyactionable content episodes.
And then the third one is whatwe're doing today and I'm I'm
personally really excited aboutthis because I think it's new
and different. We're kind ofdefining this as exploratory
(02:03):
episodes. And so when we sayexploratory episodes, we are not
in any way painting ourselves asexperts on the topic at hand.
What we are saying is we areextremely interested
practitioners of the topic athand. And one of the things that
I deeply believe is that thebest form of conversation almost
(02:23):
feels like mutual exploration,where you have a topic that
you're like, man, I am likelegitimately genuinely
interested on this.
I do not have all the answers,but I kind of want to use you as
the person that I ping mythoughts on. And you can say,
Alex, I think you're being anidiot. Or you can say like, man,
I think that's actually reallysolid and and, we're going to do
(02:44):
that today. So the the formaty'all can expect in within these
exploratory conversations is forthe purposes of today at least,
it's gonna be Ben and I taking atopic that we think is hyper
relevant for us individually,but also widely relevant for
leaders in general. And we justcame with some predefined
thoughts, but also predefinedquestions that the goal would
(03:07):
be, let's just get an hourfurther down the road in terms
of how we think of the nuancesof this topic.
So before we jump into theactual topic, anything else
you'd add on the format that youjust want people to be aware of?
Ben Loy (03:19):
Yeah. I think when we were brainstorming and we were
thinking about different topicsthat we could cover when it
comes to exploration, this onestuck out to me because I I
think particularly how peoplenavigate through failures says a
lot about who they are in theircharacter. Mhmm. But also can
kind of shed a light into evenmaybe just thinking errors or, I
(03:40):
guess, when someone experiencesfailure, it can shed a light
into maybe some beliefs thatthey had that were incorrect
about themselves, about God,about the world that we live in.
Mhmm.
And if you're not consciousabout how you're navigating
through that failure, you're notgonna grow.
Alex Judd (03:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you chose the topic. You get us
started. Where do you wanna jump
Ben Loy (04:02):
in first? Well, I could start with a really heavy
hitter. So Okay. Good. What isit about failure that is most
challenging to you personally?
Alex Judd (04:11):
You're gonna answer this too. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh,
man.
Well and this is one of thequestions that I genuinely have
too that I would like for us toget into is there is so much
content out there on learningfrom failure, recovering from
failure, how you, redeem yourfailures, all of that. And I I
have literally heard podcastersin particular say that's one of
(04:34):
the topics that performs best ontheir channels, which I always
thought was so interestingbecause I personally I
personally do not resonate withthe word failure very much.
Like, that is not a word that Ithink of very much. It's not not
It's actually very hard as I waskind of preparing my thoughts on
this. It was hard for me toblack and white characterize,
(04:55):
oh, those were things in my lifeor in my business or my
leadership that were concretefailures because it's like, I
mean, the leader's mindset,right, is you either win or you
learn.
Right?
Ben Loy (05:05):
Yeah.
Alex Judd (05:05):
So I think I don't resonate with the language of
failure very much, but if we aregonna adopt that language for
the purpose of thisconversation, I think the thing
just being very candid that Istruggle with more than anything
is actually the image of notbeing successful. Like, you
(05:27):
know, if you if we do somethingstupid as a business, which we
have done stupid as a businessbefore, I am always shocked at
how we might have lost thousandsof dollars in that stupid
mistake that we made or thatstupid thing that I did as a
leader or something like that.We may have lost thousands of
dollars, but the thing that getsto me the most is what it looks
(05:50):
like to other people. As I mean,that's very vulnerable to say,
but it's something that I I feellike I pray about and I'm
working on growing in is likebecause I think that does, like
you said, reveal something aboutcharacter that it's like, that's
the thing that I lift up. Iactually don't care about the
dollars and cents as much.
Praise God. That's not my idol.Mhmm. But my idol certainly can
be winning the approval ofothers. And so I guess that's
(06:14):
how I kind of coincide with thetopic in some ways.
Ben Loy (06:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I think I would relate a lot. I think when
it comes to failure, often wewant to project this image of
being successful. We like tofeel good about what we do.
We like to feel like we're we'reaccomplishing often things. And
I think anytime we fall short ofthe expectations that we place
in our own heads and thestandards that we hold ourselves
(06:37):
to, it puts you up against notonly what do other people think
of me, but, like, is what Ithink of myself accurate? Or,
like, does this failure defineor I make a statement on on,
like, who I am or how I'm built.And obviously, logic would tell
you no. But often, I think whenyou're in in the middle of it,
(07:00):
what's most challenging is kindof parsing that apart.
Alex Judd (07:03):
Yeah. So This feels like, two threes on an enneagram
walking
Ben Loy (07:07):
Yeah.
Alex Judd (07:07):
Walking to a bar.
Ben Loy (07:08):
Yeah. Maybe maybe we should have put that disclaimer
Alex Judd (07:10):
Preface in that. Yeah. So I I guess that's a
question I would have. I thinkit's actually probably pretty
helpful that we're both threeson the Enneagram because I know
for a fact there are a lot ofour customers that are threes on
the Enneagram and a lot of ouraudiences because, you know,
I've hosted this podcast forfive years now, and I'm a three
on the Enneagram. And I speakabout the things that are most
challenging to me, and it turnsout people that are wired like
(07:31):
me respond to that.
Right? But I think within that,what are some of the ways that
you've observed, like, peoplerelate to or maybe are
challenged by the topic offailure if their personality is
wired different than you? Is aquestion that could be worth
asking. And maybe we look at,like, a couple different
(07:53):
personality types even on theEnneagram. So, like, a one is a
perfectionist.
Right. I'd be interested to knowif you relate to this. I often,
I I have a lot of friends thatare perfectionists. I have
family that's perfectionists andlike they are very interested in
is it perfect? And like myquestion is, did I win?
Right? Like, I'm like, I don'tcare if it's perfect or not.
(08:15):
It's not going to be perfect.Like I but so I guess I don't
really connect with the personthat, like, failure for them is
less than perfection. Thoughtsthere?
Ben Loy (08:25):
Yeah. Well, funny story. When I first took the
Enneagram, and this was, Ithink, maybe ten years ago now,
I scored equally as a one and athree. Okay. Interesting.
I think, like, after somereflection and actually reading
about the motivations andthings, like, it was pretty
clear that I was a three. But Ithink in the season that I was
in and just where I had comefrom, I presented like a one
(08:48):
because I did value, like, highquality perfection. You know, I
was really creative, and so alot of creative struggle with
this. It's like, you can createa piece of artwork and people
can look at it and go, oh,that's amazing. And then you
look at it and all you see is,like, the areas that you want to
change or adjust.
Right? Mhmm. So I think thattook some time for me to to step
(09:09):
back from. But yeah. I mean, fora one, I I think, like, failure
is just crushing if you're notoperating from a healthy space.
Alex Judd (09:18):
Yeah. Because you can't you don't have a worldview
that Like, make makes room forFor failure.
Ben Loy (09:24):
For failure.
Alex Judd (09:24):
Yeah. That's right. So it's interesting to think
about, like, we're using theEnneagram as a tool. I am
certainly not, an Enneagramdisciple. I think it's a helpful
tool, but there are some peoplethat go gaga over the Enneagram.
Kyle on our team, he's one ofour coaches. He's a five on the
Enneagram. Very processoriented, very methodical. And
(09:45):
I've learned a lot by workingwith Kyle in that, I I guess,
you know, we'd have to confirmwith him, but my perception is,
especially when he's creating atalk for us or something like
that, his, like, failure throughhis lens is almost like it's not
fully thought through or it'snot comprehensive. Right?
(10:07):
Like when he's working on atalk, it is it is like an
emotional process for himbecause he wants to create
something that gets to thebottom of every possible
question and objection. And he,like, he has to see the through
line on the whole thing. And soin some ways, I think five,
like, a for a five on theenneagram or someone that's more
(10:28):
process and method oriented,it's almost like failure is not
being able to connect a to z insome ways or not or not being
fully comprehensive in someways. And so very, motivated by
thinking things through andgetting the full picture. I
guess any other motives forfailure that you or or avoiding
(10:54):
failure or things like that thatyou observe in leaders in
particular?
Ben Loy (10:57):
Yeah. I mean, I think we've already touched on, like,
perception. Right? Like, what doother people think of me? I
think think if you're more wiredtowards the perfectionist
posture and and I don't thinkI've any of these, like, exist
in a vacuum.
I think often every leaderprobably walks through some
level of these challenges atdifferent capacities. Like, you
(11:20):
might struggle with one morethan the other. Sure. But, like,
in my mind, I mean, you'retalking about Kyle, like, being
committed to processes, enjoyinglike, I think in some respect,
like, every leader is gonnavalue and appreciate and want
certainty. And when thatcertainty is challenged, like,
you're gonna struggle.
Right? And so it's like, I thinkanyone can relate to that. I
(11:42):
think maybe someone who's morepredispositioned like Kyle might
struggle more with thatspecifically. But, yeah, I mean,
I think perception of others, Ithink your view of yourself or
your view of your work and yourcapacity could be affected. I
think your trust in a processor, yeah, your your desire for
certainty or your your maybeeven your belief around the
(12:04):
possibility of certainty couldbe challenged.
Alex Judd (12:06):
I don't know. I I just as you're saying that, one
came to mind for me. Earlier, Isaid that, like, the thing I'm
concerned with as an achiever isdid I win? Yeah. I actually
don't think that's correct.
I think, like, what I perceiveis, like, eights on the
enneagram, the challengers Yeah.They are concerned with did I
win? The thing that I'mconcerned with as an achiever
(12:26):
right? Hopefully the betterangels of my nature know how to
operate against this. And and Ican certainly say there's times
where I'm operating as a wise,healthy, centered leader where
this isn't my drivingmotivation.
But it's not even did I win?It's did I look like I won? And
and it's like, I think that iswhew. That is a lot of leaders
that it's like, don't even like,the the actual results don't
matter as much as, like, dopeople perceive me as being
(12:51):
successful? And I mean yeah.
So we're getting we're gettingto the heart of things real
quick of why I think this topicis so important for leaders to
park on for a bit is because thethe way your flesh views and
captures and engages withfailure reveals so much about
(13:11):
your heart, I think. And ifwe're not aware of our
tendencies or our shadow side inthat, I think it's probably just
gonna run wild in some ways.
Ben Loy (13:20):
Yeah. Well, I guess we already pointed out how it can
(15:04):
be challenging. Maybe what aresome tendencies that leaders
could have that would cause themto operate from an unhealthy
spot when it comes to failure?
Alex Judd (15:15):
I I think this is related. One of the things that
I was thinking about as I waspreparing for this conversation
is, like, a nuance that I wasexcited to get into with you
because I think it's one that I,at least, don't often hear
talked about, and that's thatthere's a distinction between
failure of character and failureof performance. Yeah. Yep.
(15:37):
Right?
Like and we just say, oh, that'sa failure. But oftentimes, like,
the way we talk about failure ofperformance, especially in
business and leadership culture,is very different than the way
we think and talk about failureof character. But sometimes we
just use the word failure tocover all
Ben Loy (15:53):
of it.
Alex Judd (15:54):
Mhmm. Right? And I I mean, I I guess what I mean by
that is like, you know, we saycelebrate failure or celebrate
mistakes or like celebrate,like, you know, all of that. And
it's like, what that isreferring to is we we can
celebrate mistakes or evenfailures, although I think there
might even be some issues withthat in performance because
(16:14):
that's en route to learning andgrowth. We don't celebrate
failure of character.
Mhmm. Like, if someone isexperiencing, failure of
integrity, break breakdown ofmotive. Right? Like, if they're
coming at things in a way thatisn't humble but is prideful or
isn't others oriented but isselfish, we don't celebrate that
(16:35):
and be like, that's awesome.Right?
Absolutely not. And so for me, Ithink it was helpful to kinda
spend some time thinking aboutthere's a difference between
failure of character and failureperformance, but I think this is
where it gets to your question,tendencies. I think a lot of
times when we work too hard toavoid failure and performance,
(16:59):
that's actually what leads tofailure in character
Ben Loy (17:01):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (17:01):
Is what I was thinking about. Yeah. Do you get
what I'm saying there?
Ben Loy (17:04):
No. I mean, it makes me it makes me think of, like so in
in the instance of if you'refocused on the perception on,
like, other people'sperceptions. Right? If you fail
or you're experiencing failurein an area, your gut reaction or
your tendency might just be tohide it.
Alex Judd (17:20):
Right? Cover it up or lie.
Ben Loy (17:22):
Yep. Which is obviously, like, a huge, huge
character issue. Right?
Alex Judd (17:27):
Yeah. And I think that's an area that I've had to
grow a lot is, like, if my gutreaction is to hide performance
mistakes that I made, well, thatcan lead to failure of
character. And and I think it'ssanctification is learning to
make your gut reaction toapologize and ask for grace
(17:49):
instead of to hide in
Ben Loy (17:50):
some ways.
Alex Judd (17:51):
Yeah. But the other thing that I would say as a
tendency or as a means ofcreating a failure of character
or making the environment ripefor a failure of character would
be, like, if you don't have aworldview that makes room for
failure of performance Mhmm.Then you will feel the need to
(18:15):
always be on. Like, you you cannever, Gerald Nichols was part
of our coaching community forsuch a long time. He's just a
leader that I respect so much.
He's this guy from Texix thatowns an electrical company. He
and he would just always see.He's like, as a leader, you
gotta find some time to let yourhair down. It's like, Gerald,
you don't have enough hair tolet down. But, but I I think,
(18:37):
like, that is very, very true.
And what he's referring to thereis, like, it's not sustainable
for you to feel like you alwayshave to be on, for you to feel
like you have to project thisimage in front of everyone. The
perceived need to do that, Ithink, is what often results in
your off space being incrediblyunhealthy because you you need
(18:59):
escapes in some ways. Yeah. Sowhat do you
Ben Loy (19:03):
think it looks like to fail well?
Alex Judd (19:05):
You're kinda hitting the two poles here of, like,
what, like, what's the worstpossible means of failure, which
is probably failure ofcharacter, fail well. I think
the standard go to businessanswer is learn from it. And I I
agree with that. I think thatthat's obviously good. Right?
But I think there's when wereally talk about failing well
(19:27):
and and for me, the word failingtakes on more weight. Like, the
I'm I'm now making or drawing aline between mistakes and
failures. Mhmm. Like, if youactually fail, if you really
screwed up, I think you've gottaacknowledge it. And in
acknowledging it, what we'rereally talking about there is
confess it and request grace forit.
(19:50):
And I think requesting grace islike, to fail well, you have to
request grace from God and fromothers, the people that were
affected. And if you feel any,like, buck against, like, I
don't wanna ask for forgiveness,recognize you are on the ride of
pride. Right? Like, if you'redoing that so, I mean, we're
(20:11):
using very spiritual language,acknowledgment, confession,
repentance. Right?
Like, the Greek word forrepentance is literally like
teshuva, to, like, turn around a180 degrees. Like, do different
things to get different results.I'd like to go into more on the,
like, Toshuva idea from aleadership perspective, but I'd
(20:31):
like to hear anything you'd addon failing well.
Ben Loy (20:34):
Well, I really like the distinguishment you just made
between failure versus mistakes.Like, so how would you define a
mistake versus a failure?
Alex Judd (20:41):
Turning this into another question for me. Yeah.
How how would we define thedifference between the two?
Ben Loy (20:47):
Yeah. Because is mistake void of, I guess, any
character or moral failure.
Alex Judd (20:57):
I mean, I'm trying to think about how we actually use
the language.
Ben Loy (21:00):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (21:00):
And I, you know, I think someone could very easily
say this is a semanticsconversation. But the way we use
the language, I think, is like,if I say I made a mistake, it's
like there was a typo on anemail, or I said something a
little bit offhand in a meetingthat I'm apologizing for or
something like that. For me, ifI say I failed, it communicates
(21:25):
something more chronic,something more internal, and
something more prolonged is whatcomes to mind for me. And I I
think the language feels deeperprobably because the reality is
deeper, and if you say I failed,like, you're kind of reckoning
with this is deeper than just atypo in some ways. Right?
(21:46):
Like, I mean, if I made a typo,you're not sitting down with me
and be like, is everythingalright with your heart, Alex?
Like, it's like, no. Like, Imade a typo, dude. Right?
Ben Loy (21:54):
Yeah.
Alex Judd (21:54):
So I don't know. What are your thoughts there?
Ben Loy (21:57):
That's funny because then I have the thought of,
like, okay, if someone makes aadministrative mistake, right,
of some kind, that could lead tofailure depending on how they
receive feedback, like how theyprocess through it. Right? I
mean Sure. Theoretically.Something small could be just
depending on where and how,like, how they respond to it and
(22:20):
how they process through itcould turn into failure in some
capacity.
Alex Judd (22:24):
Yeah.
Ben Loy (22:25):
So So it's not so much it's not so much the mechanism
as much as it is, like, theinternal response, which I think
you you pointed to.
Alex Judd (22:33):
Right? Yeah. Okay. We're gonna go exploring here.
So as you say that, what comesto mind for me is sin.
The Greek word for sin ishamartia Mhmm. Which is an
archery term. Mhmm. Right? Itmeans, like, to miss the mark.
Right? And so, you know, do donot pull out your bible and use
(22:55):
it against me right now becauseI I'm definitely saying, like,
even the Bible doesn't alwaysuse the Greek word for sin. So
let's keep that in mind. But tomiss the mark. If we're
operating with the definition ofto miss the mark, then is a typo
Yeah.
Right? It probably is. But the,that's a that's a difference.
(23:17):
Like, you miss the mark, but, Imean, when oftentimes when we
refer to the topic of sin, whatwe're talking about is prideful
rebellion against God. How doesa typo become prideful rebellion
against God?
And I think what you justalluded to with admit like, is
what's your spirit around it?Yeah. Is your spirit around it
(23:40):
like, oh, man, I screwed thatup. Why? Because I'm human and I
make mistakes and I need gracefor my mistakes.
Or is it like, I didn't makethat typo. That wasn't my fault.
Or like, what? You you don't getto correct me on this. Right?
Or you are above correction orthings like that. Like, well,
now I think we're actuallygetting into prideful rebellion
(24:03):
where you are cursing the idealin some ways. Like instead of
being willing to humbly receivegrace for the fact that you made
a mistake, you're now shakingyour fist at the idea that words
should be typed correctly insome ways. Yeah. I just picture
a secretary going, curse.
Ben Loy (24:25):
How does that show up?
Alex Judd (24:26):
Oh, man. Well, I feel like in an exploration
conversation like this, what Ineed from you now is like, dude,
do do you think I just went waytoo far out?
Ben Loy (24:36):
No. I mean, I might the first thing that came to mind
for me when you were talkingabout where, like, where the
heart is and, I mean, thisobviously wasn't a failure at
all, but, like, Jesus healing onthe Sabbath. It's like Mhmm. The
Pharisees were so obsessed withthe religiosity and the process
of the law that they, like,completely missed the mark on
the heart behind, like, who Godis. Mhmm.
(24:59):
Right? Yeah.
Alex Judd (25:00):
So okay. So how does that connect to mistake versus
failure or mistake versus sin?
Ben Loy (25:06):
I think like an overemphasis or a I mean, in
many ways, like, it evenoveremphasizing your own
failures can be a form of pride.Like, if you're
Alex Judd (25:16):
Yeah.
Ben Loy (25:17):
If you're so focused on perfectionism or being yeah. Or
whatever it is that happened.Right? If you're just so focused
on your failure and you're notable to look up from that, I
think it can almost grow intoits own form of an idol. Right?
Alex Judd (25:33):
Man, that's so good. So I'm I'm reading a book right
now called The Quest forGodliness. It's written by a guy
named J. I. Packer.
And I did not know this wheneverI bought the book. I was like,
that sounds like a cool title.Like, basically judged a book by
its cover. It's exactly what Idid. And what it essentially is,
is a condensed history of thePuritan movement.
(25:54):
And I, like, I got finished withpage one. I was like, wow, this
is gonna be
Ben Loy (25:59):
Seems on brand for J. I.
Alex Judd (26:01):
Patrick. Yeah. I was like, this could be a quest.
This will be interesting. So oneof the first things he
highlights is that, like, whenwe hear the word puritan, we
have thoughts in our heads andso often, this was definitely
true for me, the thoughts thatare that are get struck in our
heads about what Puritans areare not what Puritans actually
were.
One thing that is true, if youread any Puritan prayers like
(26:23):
the Valley of Vision or if youread any Puritan literature like
John Owens or things like that,is, like, they spend so much
time talking about sin. Theyspend a lot of time talking
about sin. And I think that'swhere people often get the
misconception that if you are apuritan preacher or a puritan in
(26:45):
some ways, you're like fire andbrimstone, just absolutely
exactly what you said. You arepridefully engaging with failure
where you're making this aboutyou, and you're just depressive
in some ways. And what he reallyhighlights is, like, that does
not at all connect with truepuritanism because what these
people were is they were sointimately aware of their
(27:09):
limitations, and they spent timewith their limitations, the
areas where they fell short.
But then that was always pairedtheologically with deep seated
acknowledgment and recognitionof the all sufficiency of God
for their inadequacy. And thethe end result of that was not
(27:29):
depression. It was likeabounding joy because it's like,
man, I see how weak I am. But inseeing just how weak I am and
just how sinful I am, I see howgreat God is and and how perfect
grace is, and out of that I getto move forward. And it's like,
I think sometimes we miss out onhow good God is because we don't
(27:52):
acknowledge how bad we are.
Yeah. If I were to put it on abumper sticker. Yeah.
Ben Loy (27:56):
Yeah. Well, because, like, true humility isn't I
mean, it's funny because peoplepeople look at humility and it's
like, their view of that is, oh,woe is low is me or woe is me or
I'm, you know I mean, I feellike that's a common language,
especially, like, in reformcircles. Right? There's Self
deprecation. Yeah.
Exactly. And and then the re thereality of that is, like, that's
(28:17):
not actually humility becauseyou're still navel gazing. Like,
you're still you're stilllooking inward
Alex Judd (28:23):
on life. Yourself at this point. Yeah.
Ben Loy (28:26):
And, like, true humility is is having a right
view and understanding of whoGod is. And so, like, looking
up, understanding who he is, andthen through that, in that
informs, like, your failure andyour need for grace. And then
from that, a heart of ofthankfulness and gratefulness.
Right?
Alex Judd (28:44):
Mhmm.
Ben Loy (28:44):
So
Alex Judd (29:47):
So in a leadership context, how do you communicate
well on the back end of a teamfailure? So so we're probably
now talking about failureperformance.
Ben Loy (30:03):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (30:04):
Right? And I think so often, there's lessons on goal
setting and vision casting, andthey tell us to set goals that
are 50 to 70% achievable becausethat's a BHAG that we're gonna
go run after. But, I mean, thereare remarkably few good lessons
on, well, if it was 50%achievable, there was a 50%
(30:24):
chance that you didn't hit it.And how do you lead in and
through that? How do youcommunicate through that?
So that's something that Ireally wanted to explore with
you is what have you experiencedfrom other leaders in that that
do that well? What have youobserved or any thoughts you
have on that?
Ben Loy (30:41):
I guess in the team setting, was this a, like, team
oriented goal, or was this,like, the failure of the leader
specifically or maybe anindividual in the group?
Alex Judd (30:52):
Let's say it's a team. Let's say we set a big
hairy audacious goal of we'regonna hit 5,000,000 in annual
revenue by the end of the year.Right? And that's a 25% increase
in business. Right?
And that was a goal that we weregoing for. And maybe we even
pursued the the goal in ahealthy way. Right? So sometimes
(31:12):
we can get a little bit tooantsy around revenue goals, but
it's like they're not alwaysbad. And maybe we even pursued
the goal in a healthy way.
We just didn't hit it. And maybewe hit four or four and a half
and we grew, but we didn't quitehit five. And so now people look
at it and we say, well, red,yellow, green were red. We
didn't we missed the mark. Whatdo you do then?
Ben Loy (31:34):
Yeah. I mean, I guess it depends on the like, why that
revenue goal was in that in thatcontext. Like, it'd be why was
that goal set? Right? Was it setout of a a reactionary, like,
we're in a really bad place andwe need to get to this spot to
Alex Judd (31:48):
be free. Operate from the posture because this is what
I witnessed the most of we're ina good spot. We're growing.
We're moving forward. We're ahealthy organization.
And now we have decided as ateam, the next right step is we
want to try and grow and expandthe business. And we think we
think it's going be hard, but wethink we could hit 5,000,000 by
the end of the year.
Ben Loy (32:07):
And then and then it doesn't happen.
Alex Judd (32:09):
And then we hit four.
Ben Loy (32:10):
Yeah. I mean, I think, like, a good leader would frame
that in a way that's like, hey,we we did not reach the goal
that we set out to reach, but,like, ultimately, the business
still grew. And it I think it'sand acknowledging the work that
your team put in to accomplishthat goal and I think
celebrating that. On the flipside of that, having some level
(32:33):
of standards. So if if it'slike, oh, if we reach 5,000,000
by the end of the year, we'regonna have a retreat celebration
of some kind.
Right? I think maybe holdingthat line of like, hey, we're
not actually going like, this isthe this is the line that we
drew, and so we're not actuallygoing to celebrate because we
(32:53):
didn't cross the goal, but thenultimately, like, we can still
be proud of what weaccomplished. Mhmm.
Alex Judd (32:58):
You know,
Ben Loy (32:58):
being able to frame that in a way that that's still
inspiring and doesn't crushpeople's spirits Mhmm. And,
like, keeps them motivated.
Alex Judd (33:06):
Mhmm. Well, one of the things that you already
highlighted is I have actuallyhad conversations with leaders
before where they say, hey,we're in q four, and all signs
are pointing to, like, we're notgonna hit this thing. Or, like,
we didn't hit the goal. Mhmm.And then they say, do I mention
it?
Or do I just, like and and it'svery tempting Yeah. To be very
(33:29):
vocal in the setting of goals,but then not at all be vocal in
the evaluation of goals when wedon't hit them.
Ben Loy (33:37):
So that was actually my first thought when you were
talking about it was I was like,I feel like in my act in my
experience, when lofty goalshave been set and they haven't
been accomplished, I feel likethey often just go away
silently. Like, nobody it's likeit's like this elephant in the
room that we're just gonna,like, continue to walk by and
operate around until it shrinksuntil something else gets big
(33:58):
enough that, like, we'redistracted and we just kind of
forget about it.
Alex Judd (34:01):
What's the so we've obviously both clarified that we
both don't think that that's theright approach as
Ben Loy (34:07):
a leader.
Alex Judd (34:07):
No. What's the damage that that does? I think
Ben Loy (34:10):
trust takes a really big hit from, like, if you are a
leader and you've set a goal andthen something like that happens
and then you choose to justignore that reality, like, I
think you're going to lose trustin the people that are following
you, like, without a doubt.Because not only is does it show
(34:30):
a like, the the reason why thatgoal wasn't met could be a
million different reasons. Butthen the failure to acknowledge
it shows that, like, your wordsand, like, the commitment that
you supposedly had in thesetting of this goal and the
vision casting aren't actuallybacked by, like, your character
and and follow through. And Ithink that that's really, really
hard as, like, someone who'strying to follow someone. Like,
(34:52):
you you can't trust what they'regonna say Mhmm.
Or that, like, what they thegoals that they set they're
actually going to work towardsand and even acknowledge when it
comes to the hard parts of it,the failures, and things like
that.
Alex Judd (35:05):
So That that's right. I think that's right. Because,
you know, if you're a goodvision caster, you put your
heart into it, you put yourpassion into it, you you
energize people, you you callout the best in others and say
the thing you you say the thingsthat you believe are on the team
that could help you get thisgoal. That's if you're a good
vision caster. And if you're abad vision caster, then that's
(35:25):
your failure.
Right?
Ben Loy (35:26):
Yeah. But if
Alex Judd (35:27):
you're a good vision caster, you do all those things.
And then if you get a year downthe road and you don't
acknowledge that, like,basically you were wrong, trust,
it's like, do people what dopeople when they say I don't
trust, they're either saying Idon't trust your competency or I
don't trust your integrity.
Ben Loy (35:42):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (35:42):
And maybe in this situation, both are certainly
not I don't trust his integrity,but it certainly, like, becomes
a little bit gray because it'slike, is it that he knows, but
he's he's Yeah. Like, coveringit up a little bit, or they
don't trust your competency?Like, does he just not know? Did
he forget about the goal that heset? And and both of those are
(36:04):
sow seeds of doubt
Ben Loy (36:06):
Yep.
Alex Judd (36:06):
Into what's actually going on.
Ben Loy (36:08):
Well, and in many ways, like, the the more effective you
are at casting vision, like, themore damage that's gonna do on
the back end. Mhmm. Right? Like,if you're if you're incredible
at casting vision, gettingpeople excited, driving it with
purpose, and, like, people areare connecting with that in a
big way, the fallback on you notonly not meeting that goal and
(36:32):
following through, but then notacknowledging it is gonna be so
much greater than if you werelike, hey, let's just accomplish
this one thing and then goesaway.
Alex Judd (36:40):
Yeah. That's right. The other thing that stands out
to me as to why it's actuallynot in a a leader's best
interest to just shove it underthe rug and be like, bet people
forgot about it, is thestandards you apply yourself to
collectively always becomestandards that people adopt
individually. So if you showpeople collectively,
(37:02):
organizationally, we are willingto just basically ignore
failures, you're now givingeveryone on the team a lesson
that, like, when you makeindividual mistakes, the the
strategy that we apply ourselfto or the standard that we apply
ourself to here is we can justshove it under the rug. And if
you're asking for individualownership but not taking
(37:23):
organizational ownership, peopleare gonna experience I mean,
they're gonna be like, this ishypocrisy.
Right? Like, we can't like,that's not fair. Yeah. And so I
think we should expect from thewhole what we expect from the
individual. But then, you know,in some ways, this is why I I
just this could sound bad, but Ilook at people that lead a
business, like, that lead asmall business in particular
(37:45):
that don't know what their faithis, and I look at those people
like they have four eyes justbecause I think it I don't know
how I would do that.
Mhmm. I I literally don't knowhow I would do it because my
faith tells me what I believe intells me some a message that I
can also extend to our team islike, hey, we failed, and, like,
we did not hit the mark, or wedid not do what we set out to
(38:08):
do. It's a good thing we are notwhat we do. Right. Right?
Like, it's a good thing, like,our value as people certainly,
but even as a team does not comefrom strictly our individual
performance, and it's a goodthing we believe in grace. Like,
I think you can and should talkabout that. And I actually think
(38:29):
that, like, that is a necessaryconversation in the building of
a mature team
Ben Loy (38:36):
in some ways. And I don't know how you navigate that
conversation without bringingGod into the picture. Right?
Like
Alex Judd (38:44):
Well, and that's that's the thing. People would
say, well, you could say, well,I'm not a person of faith, but,
I mean, I believe in all thosethings. We are not what we do.
We, like, can receive grace and,like, we can move forward out of
that. And it's like, oh, so youare a person of faith.
Right. You believe in something.
Ben Loy (39:01):
Yeah.
Alex Judd (39:01):
We we have not clarified yet what you believe.
Yeah. But the idea of, like, I'mnot a person of faith No.
Ben Loy (39:08):
I I guess the way I view that is, like, okay, if
you're if you're saying whatyou're not and you're it's okay.
We're not gonna identify as ourfailures. We're not gonna
identify as whatever. And you godown this list, like, you're
you're emptying a void. Like,what are you filling that with?
Mhmm. Right? Like, if you itbecause there's there's a lot of
problems to okay. If we're notour failures, are we our
successes? Because there's a lotof problems with identifying
(39:30):
with that as well.
Right? Like, if if we're
Alex Judd (39:33):
Or culturally, you are not your failures. You are
what you perceive you to be.Yep. Like in like, the the hero
in that story is the individual.Yep.
And your self identification hasbecome God in that scenario.
Ben Loy (39:48):
Which changes, like Oh, yeah. Dramatically in life
seasons and as, like, hardshipcomes and, I mean, even, like,
in in highs and lows, like, yourown perception of yourself is so
volatile. And any any, like,counselor or therapist can tell
you is something that, like, youcan more or less work to change
(40:10):
just through, like, thinking.
Alex Judd (40:12):
Yeah. So That so that's how I think about blessed
are the poor in spirit fortheirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Like, blessed are the poor inspirit. Oftentimes, like, I see
two approaches to life andleadership. Approach one is
inadequacy.
Right? I am not enough. I'm notenough. I'll never be enough,
(40:36):
and it's nihilistic. It'sdepressive.
It's negative. You are you aredwelling in your total
inadequacy. I am not enough.Culture swings the pendulum the
other way and says, you don'tlisten to that voice. You don't
use that self talk.
You are enough. Like, you listento me. You are enough. And you
just should just stand in themorning and look in the mirror
(40:58):
every single morning and say, Iam enough. Right?
And and I think blessed are thepoor in spirit is not that.
Right? Like, are those whorealize how spiritually bankrupt
they are and how totally just Imean, at the bottom of things
they are. I am not enough, butChrist in me is enough. Right?
(41:18):
Like, on my own, I am so farfrom adequate. It's not even
funny, and I can understandthat, but Christ in me is
enough. And so that's where it'slike some of these cultural
messages, like, people will tellyou, you are not a failure.
Right? Well, is that a Christianmessage?
Because maybe you are, butpraise God, like, you are not
your worst actions and, like,you you were not victorious. He
(41:43):
was victorious, and so now youmay have life in some ways.
Yeah. I Not I should correctthat. Not in some ways.
Like, I in all ways.
Ben Loy (41:51):
Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, one of the one of my favorite
things about reading through theOld Testament is because peep a
lot of people will parse the Oldand the New Testament and it's
like, oh, you've got you've got,like, the feathered hair, Jesus,
like, loving God who accepts youfor who you are, and then you
have, like, the Old Testament,like, judgment, destruction.
Alex Judd (42:10):
I I heard it was Erwin McManus say it recently.
He was like, lots of peopleperceive, like, the Old
Testament God as the God ofwrath, anger, and fire, and then
he went to a therapist, and weget Jesus. Yeah. That is how we
often perceive
Ben Loy (42:22):
what I've But, like, when you really read
intentionally through the OldTestament, I mean, what it is,
it's just a continued story of,like, God just continually
redeeming, redeeming andrestoring, and redeeming and
restoring. And, and it justshows up in so many subtle ways.
I mean, the one of the biblestudies, the bible study I go to
(42:43):
on Tuesdays that I'm in, like,we're going through Joshua right
now and the story of Jericho andRahab. Like, a prostitute, a
gentile is redeemed and even,like, is then woven into the
bloodline of Jesus. Mhmm.
And, like, God is just, like,taking people from these far
(43:05):
corners of the earth andrestoring them. Right? And I
think what's even moreinteresting, something we talked
about was Rahab's son based onthat that same bloodline, it was
Boaz who was like I mean, all inall, it's something that someone
that people look up to as aleader and a man and who, like,
loves and cares for women well.And, like, his his mother was
(43:27):
prostitute. That's right.
Like, it's it's so interesting.And I mean, there's just there
are there are so many bits andpieces of that that just it's
like, I call them mini gospels.It's like God is just, like,
sprinkling in his character andhis redemption to, like, point
us towards Jesus.
Alex Judd (43:42):
Yeah. You know? I think it was Karl Marx that said
religion is the opiate of themasses. I think it was Karl
Marx. That that would be thefirst time I've quoted Karl Marx
on this podcast.
Plan to not make a habit ofthat. But if that's the case, if
religion, particularly ifChristian religion is the opiate
of the masses, why why would youmake it so real? Like, Noah is,
(44:06):
I think, a great example. Right?Like, this is such a, like,
excellent archetypal story of,like, man lives apart from his
generation and is able toprepare for and prophesy the
future and honestly take actionsso that himself, his family,
(44:27):
humanity, and creation ispreserved.
And because of his integrityfilled actions, he wades through
the storm and survives theflood. That's a beautiful ending
to that story that wouldprobably pretty effectively work
as the opiate of the masses.Unfortunately, there's there's a
(44:48):
little snippet towards the endof that where it's like Noah
gets drunk, and he ends up nakedand made fun of by his sons and
is basically ashamed as a foolvery close to the end of his
life in the narrative. And it'slike, I mean, failure. Right?
That that is not a mistake. Thatis a failure in some ways. And I
(45:10):
I think sometimes if we're notcareful, we gloss over those
parts and just tell the mylittle kid's bible version to
ourselves. The problem is, like,we're adults now and, like, we
need to have a worldview thatacknowledges for humanity in
Noah because I am a human too.Mhmm.
(45:33):
And if I can't see it in Noah, Icertainly won't be able to see
it in myself.
Ben Loy (45:36):
Yeah. One of the biggest inclinations, I think,
when people read the Bible andespecially read the Old
Testament is they will they willplace themselves and, like, I
try to identify with the hero inthe story in a way that is, oh,
like, I either need to be morelike him or, like, this is who
we should be. And I think sooften in especially if you
(45:57):
really read all the way through,those people end up failing at
some point. And I think, like,understanding where we are in
the story is so important. Like,we we are not the hero.
Like and that is just that isthe reality. And, like, I I
think having an understandingthat brings you to a place of
(46:17):
humility and dependence on Godis honestly the the answer to
how to walk through failurewell.
Alex Judd (46:23):
I've shared this with you. Like, I'm going through the
old testament right now. I juststarted Lamentations this
morning, which woof. You and hertalk about, like, coinciding
with your failure. Right?
But when you actually start fromthe beginning and walk through
all of these mini gospels insome ways, whenever you find a
(46:44):
short snippet of someone thattruly was honorable and
righteous and then they wereburied, it is like, I mean, a
little treasure. And what'scrazy is those stories actually
aren't very long. Like, the onethat's coming to mind, I think
his name was Hezekiah. And,like, you, like, read it and
you're like, this guy didn't getnearly as much space as David
(47:08):
did. Like, he didn't get nearlyas much airtime as David did,
but it appears as though in theshort snippets we've got, he
seemed like he was much morehonorable.
And and but the thing that istrue about Hezekiah is, like, he
kept God as the hero for hisentire life, it seems like, and,
like, was able to keep thatfront and center. Whereas David
(47:29):
or Saul got into trouble maybeat the very moment that they
started to perceive themselvesas the hero or the arbitrator or
or the aggressor versus beingsubmitted to the will of God.
Ben Loy (47:44):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (47:45):
How do you take responsibility as a leader for a
failure of it, of a team, right,or or even multiple people were
involved in something? How doyou take responsibility without
simultaneously stealingresponsibility? Is the question
that I have. And and I'mactually being a very particular
(48:05):
story whenever I'm asking thisquestion is one of my first jobs
out of college, I, it was socool. I was running a leadership
development group.
We were hosting leadershipdevelopment events. They were
going super well. And I I wasalways so grateful for how much
ownership I felt in the rolethat I had. And, like, I got to
make decisions. I I got to becreative, all of that stuff.
(48:25):
Right? And I thrived on that. Wedo an event where the event went
well. The speaker that we hadfor the event was a dud. It was
bad.
No. Which was the centerpiece ofthe event. Right? And, like, we
chose a speaker for the eventthat we did not properly vet,
and it just was bad. And we hadall these people there.
We had done a great jobmarketing. Unfortunately, good
(48:47):
marketing of a bad product
Ben Loy (48:48):
Back is to casting vision really Exactly. Well and
not
Alex Judd (48:52):
And I'll never forget, I sat down with my boss
at the time, and I started tosay, like, I'm so sorry, like,
I'm so sorry, like, we met andhe stopped me and he said, Alex,
don't say another word. This wason me. This was my fault. Like,
I should have done x y z. I takefull responsibility for this.
(49:13):
This was absolutely on me. Don'tsay another word. To which you
could think I would leave thatfeeling good. I actually left
that feeling awful because I waslike, I thought I had a role in
this thing. Yeah.
Like, I thought I was making adifference, and it turns out,
like, I don't actually haveresponsibility. Yeah. But I've
always looked at that and beenlike, if I put myself in his
(49:34):
shoes, I don't know that I wouldhave done something different.
Like, we could look at what hedid and said, man, that's a good
leader right there. But theeffect that it had on me doesn't
actually feel like what youwould want a leader's impact to
be.
Ben Loy (49:48):
Yeah. I think one of the things this is, I mean, a
really common principle inleadership in general and how to
lead others well is making surethat they have ownership in
their role.
Alex Judd (49:57):
Sure.
Ben Loy (49:57):
And I think most often we think of that being, oh, make
sure that they're they arewinning. They feel like they're
winning. They feel like theyhave a say and have agency and
are heard. The flip side of thatthat same coin could be removing
that ownership through failure.Right?
Like, making sure that not onlyare they owning the role and
(50:19):
their successes, but, like,maybe they have they do have to
own the mistakes and thefailures and the results of that
role. Yes. And so when youremove the other side of that,
it it really just neutralizesthat entire experience.
Alex Judd (50:35):
That's right. So I I thought of this this morning,
and I and I hadn't thought aboutit in this context, but it was
actually really helpful. Thiswill probably air let's see.
This episode will probably airright before Texas plays Ohio
State in week one of the collegefootball season. Praise God.
It's back. Thank goodness.Right? I'm so excited because
(50:56):
now are all of my collegefootball references are gonna be
relevant again. So so collegefootball, I just love because I
think it's such an illustrationof so many real world principles
playing out in real time andvery black and white.
And one of the topics that Iwrote down that I wanted to get
into today that we kind oftouched on but didn't really get
into is like, gray failure isreally hard for a leader. Like,
(51:19):
the thing I love about collegefootball is it's black and
white. You won or you lost.Right? A lot of times, it's a
lot more gray in leadership.
Like, was that all my fault? Isthat a loss or is that partially
a win? There's some redeemingqualities. In college football,
it's a win or a loss. When thecollege football team loses and
they had a bad performance, likean awful performance, the coach
(51:39):
goes into the press conferenceafterwards.
What should that coach say inthat moment? It is in his best
interest and everyone's bestinterest to say, this is on me.
This is my fault. I take fullresponsibility. And there are
coaches.
One of them has the first nameof Jimbo that literally his
press conferences would be theplays were all there. It was
(52:01):
just execution, which isliterally code for it's the
player's fault. It's not myfault. Right? But the good coach
in that situation, and we willsee this this fall, the good
coach will stand in front of thepress room and they will say,
this is all on me.
Then what I was thinking aboutis, okay, that's in the press
room. That's publicly. That'sthe group setting all of that.
(52:21):
Then they leave the press room.Do you think that they're going
in to the locker room andsaying, y'all don't have
anything to work on this week?
That that loss was all on me.I'm gonna go get my act
together, but y'all are good.No. Right. He's probably talking
individually with particularcoaches, particular players that
(52:45):
made mistakes or weren'tproperly prepared or didn't show
correct effort or or made a dumbdumb move or something like
that.
And working with them on theirresponsibility as it related to
the overall loss. So I thinkthere's a there's a good lesson
there in that it's like publiclyand even collectively, I take
(53:06):
responsibility for all of it.But part of me taking
responsibility for the whole isthen having the individual
conversations so that peopletake individual ownership of the
things that they could have doneto create a different outcome in
some ways.
Ben Loy (53:20):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (53:20):
And and I I'd like to get your thoughts on this too
before we close out. But I thinkwhat I experienced in that
moment that I talked aboutearlier with my boss was the the
press conference being correct.Like, he did exactly what he
should have done, but there wasnever that locker room moment or
that office moment where I wasforced to reckon with the role
(53:42):
that I could have played that Ididn't play to create a better
result in some ways.
Ben Loy (53:47):
Yeah. That's a really good example just in publicly
owning the role that you have asa leader, like, in the impact.
Like, as a head coach, you'regonna have a huge impact on the
culture, the way the team plays,the strat I mean, like,
everything from the top down.Right? But then at on the flip
side of that, the reality isyou're dealing with a team of
human beings and human beingsfail.
(54:10):
That's right. You know? And sobeing able to own the
responsibility of the decisionsthat were made, the the the
strategy that was taken, andjust how the game went in
general, but then turning aroundand and for your team coming
with their respective of like,okay, what went well? What can
we improve? What are the areasthat we need to work on?
(54:32):
And, like, having more grace, Iguess.
Alex Judd (54:36):
Yeah. I'm definitely not advocating. I feel like this
is important to say. Like, I amdefinitely not advocating for
make sure you present the imagethat that you're saying this is
all my fault. Yeah.
But then in your head, you'rethinking like, this is actually
their fault. And like, I'm gonnamake sure they they know about
that and we work on them. Youryour literal job is to prepare
(54:58):
them to be successful and togive them everything they need
to be successful. So if theyweren't successful, all roads
lead to you in some ways. So butI think maybe what we're
breaking down here is it's noteither or, it's yes and.
Are you fully responsible?Absolutely, you are. Do they
have a role to play that leadsto the success and failure of
(55:21):
what you're doing? Absolutely,they do. Both are true, and we
don't we shouldn't say it's oneor the other.
Because the minute you get intoone or the other, you're now
basically just blaming isessentially what you're doing.
Ben Loy (55:33):
Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Judd (55:34):
Okay. Is there anything else on the topic of
failure that we should explorein the remaining time we have?
Ben Loy (55:39):
I don't think we have much remaining time. Excellent.
Alex Judd (55:42):
Very good. Okay. Well, I'm eager to see what our
next exploration conversationis. Sounds great. Well, there
you have it.
Thanks so much for joining usfor this episode. If you want
any of the information orresources that we mentioned,
that's all in the show notes.Hey, before you go, could I ask
you for one quick favor? Couldyou subscribe, rate, and review
(56:04):
this podcast episode? Yourfeedback is what helps our team
engage in a sequence of neverending improvement.
We wanna amplify what's valuableto you and obviously reduce or
even remove the things thataren't. Also, you leaving a
positive review is what helps usconnect with, build trust with,
and serve other leaders aroundthe country. So thanks in
(56:25):
advance for helping us out onthat front. Are you a leader
that wants to grow your businessin a healthy way, serve people
exceptionally well, and glorifyGod in the process. Go to
pathforgrowth.com to get moreinformation about our community
of impact driven leaders andschedule a call with our team.
Hey, thank you so much to thePath for Growth team, Kyle
(56:46):
Cummings and the crew atPodCircle, and the remarkable
leaders that are activelyengaged in the path for growth
community. Y'all are the peoplethat make this podcast possible.
Y'all know this. We're rootingfor you. We're praying for you.
We wanna see you win. Remember,my strength is not for me. Your
strength is not for you. Ourstrength is for service. Let's
(57:06):
go.
Let's go. Let's go.
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