December 16, 2025 • 55 mins
Effective listening is a vital but often underrated skill for leadership. In this episode, John Crawford joins the podcast to explain how listening can combat the loneliness epidemic, help resolve conflicts, and ultimately make you a better leader. He also shares some stories of how listening transformed his relationships as a pastor, as a salon owner, and in his personal life. Tune in for practical insights and tactics you can use to improve your listening today!
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Episode Recap:
- People don’t feel listened to, and that leads to loneliness
- How has listening transformed your approach to both hair styling and ministry?
- How do we listen well in a world so full of noise?
- What role does listening play in conflict resolution?
- How can we practice listening while still being assertive?
- What would you say to leaders who feel lonely?
- What does it mean to lead through listening?
- What blocks people from listening well?
- Try these tactics to start asking better questions
- How does listening well benefit leaders?
- What’s the relationship between listening and control?
- What’s one step listeners can take today?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Crawford (00:02):
Back in 2018, I was cutting hair that's what I
did for a living and I wascutting hair at the salon. One
of my longtime clients came infor a haircut, and, she sat down
in my chair, and I startedcombing through her hair and
said, hey, what what are wedoing with your hair today? And
I'll never forget what she said.She said, John, I don't need a
(00:26):
haircut. I just need someone tolisten to me.
And I remember when she saidthat, it, like, stopped me dead
in my tracks. For one, I'd neverheard that before, and I I
remember feeling, like, a realdeep sadness of like she was
gonna come in to see me for ahaircut, have me give her a
(00:47):
haircut that she didn't reallyneed, but she was gonna pay me
just so she would have somebodyto listen to her. And I remember
from that moment on, was like,hey, there's something here.
Like, there's something aboutlistening that is not only
really powerful, but it feelslike it's really needed right
now in our society. And this wasback before COVID broke out, but
(01:12):
a lot of the, studies that weredone back in 2019 before COVID
and the pandemic had diagnosedAmerica as being in an epidemic
of loneliness.
Yep. And people were lonelier in2019 than they ever had been in
the history of our country. Andfor the first time, young
(01:32):
people, Gen z at the time, werelonelier than the elderly. And I
just remember hearing that atthe salon, then I started to
hear more and more instances.And then in 2019, there's this
study that says we're in anepidemic of loneliness.
And then I was still cuttinghair at the salon, and so I'm
(01:53):
hearing this more and more. AndI even remember one of my
clients shortly after came in,different client, and said,
we're talking, I'm cutting hair,and my client said, hey, you
know what? I pay a therapist$150 an hour because no one will
listen to me, not even myspouse. And I just, there there
(02:15):
kept being, like, this recurringtheme of people don't have
anyone to listen to them. Mhmm.
And when people feel heard andwhen people feel like you are
listening, they they feel loved.You know, like people feel
loved, they feel known, and allthat. And so that was the the
first moment was back in 2018.Was like, man, there's something
(02:35):
really powerful about listening.Mhmm.
Ben Loy (02:38):
So how how are you approaching your interactions at
the salon before? Like, what wasyour mindset with because you're
obviously probably still havingconversations with them. Right?
John Crawford (02:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I think my mindset before, I cut
hair for years before this. Andit was like, Hey, the only
reason why someone's coming intothe salon is to get a haircut.
Yep.
And you kind of provide a littlebit of chitchat to make the time
go by, you know? So it's like,yeah, you don't want to have an
awkward, like silent periodwhile you're giving a haircut,
but the baseline assumption forme was someone's going to come
(03:10):
in and give me business and payme to give them the service of
cutting their actual hair. And,the approach then shifted of,
Hey, there's actually anotherservice that I'm offering that
is very valuable to people. Andwhen my client voiced that of
like, hey, I'm just coming inbecause I need you to listen to
(03:32):
me. I was like, man, there'sthere's something here.
And it it actually made me viewmy work at the salon
differently. Sure. And I startedto view it, you know, and
there's the age old, like, thesalon's the place where gossip
happens because people telltheir hairdresser or, like, my
hairdresser is my therapist. Itell them everything. So there's
always, like, a a understandingthat people talk to their barber
(03:52):
or hairdresser, but I it stillnever hit me on the importance
and the value and the need thatso many people, unlike me,
because I didn't feel this wayat the time, so many people feel
I don't have anybody in my lifeto listen to me, and that's
like, it's a tragic thing.
Mhmm.
Ben Loy (04:09):
So from, like, a leadership perspective, because
you you worked at a salon, andthen I think you owned did you
own a salon? Yeah. And then youalso were bi vocational and then
went into full time ministry.
John Crawford (04:20):
So Yeah. Crazy story. Right?
Ben Loy (04:22):
Yeah. Mean, insane. Right? So how, like, how have
you seen or how has that thattool for listening been applied
in the one on one sense withwith your, your clients at the
hair salon versus as you kind ofgrew in maybe influence and just
the amount of people you'reinteracting with in ministry.
Yeah.
(04:42):
Is there a is there a differencein the way you were applying it
or is it like a principle thatyou say would just, carry across
John Crawford (04:49):
the You know what? It has been something that
I've learned about and haveactively tried to grow in. And I
would say be because of that, Iwould say it's just applied
across the board. I think what Ihave come to realize is why
listening is so powerful isbecause every single person has
(05:09):
a story Mhmm. And every personlongs to be known.
And so what listening providesis it provides a space for
people's stories to actually beunderstood and listened to, and
all of our stories are are verydifferent and have shaped us.
And so by me listening to you,I'm actually hearing a bit of,
(05:32):
Hey, here's the things that havehappened in Ben's life and this
is how you've come to think oract or believe or whatever it is
in the way that you have. And inmy action of actively trying to
listen to you, you feel known.Mhmm. And so I think it's been
it's carried across in theleadership because when you're
(05:53):
able to listen, you can betterunderstand people, you're able
to actually feel a sense ofempathy and compassion instead
of believing the worst aboutsomeone Mhmm.
Because that's what we typicallydo is when we're given the least
amount of information, peoplewill automatically always
connect the dots in the mostpathological ways possible,
(06:15):
which means we're prone tobelieving the worst. Yep. And
when you ask questions andlisten, all of a sudden now you
fill in the gaps and I don'thave the least amount of
information, now I actually havethe appropriate amount of
information and so I can betterunderstand the people that I'm
leading, the people that I'mpastoring, and I feel a sense of
deep empathy and even compassionfor people to help them. And so
(06:36):
it's been it's been reallyhelpful. And so I would say it
just carried over but it's it'slooked differently, I think,
from the salon to, a churchsetting.
Ben Loy (06:45):
Yeah. How how does that fit into because I I I feel like
one of the things you'respeaking into is, like, trust
even in a relationship. Like,your listening establishes
trust.
John Crawford (06:56):
Totally.
Ben Loy (06:57):
How does that fit into the way that we interact today
in our own culture and, yeah,just just some of the unique
dynamics of
John Crawford (07:05):
Oh, man.
Ben Loy (07:06):
Social media, you know, everything's digital. Versus
yeah. Like, how do you listen ina in a world that is so noise
heavy? Man, the the world we
John Crawford (07:17):
live in is we're surrounded by noise all the time
where everyone is talking butvery few people are listening.
And everybody's got opinions,everybody's posting stuff,
everybody's commenting,everybody is putting out
content, you know, and sothere's there's not a shortage
of people talking, there's ashortage of people listening.
And so I think you're you'reexactly right on the trust
(07:41):
piece. When you listen tosomeone because they feel known,
because they feel heard, whichis what they're longing for, you
will grow their trust. And, Iforget who said it, it's another
one of those things where it'slike, I don't know who said it,
who gets the credit, but it'sthe age old people don't care
how much you know until theyknow how much you care.
(08:01):
Yep. And when you listen tosomeone, it shows that you
genuinely are interested in themand that you're not just talking
at them or you're not just gonnaassume things about them, you're
seeking to understand, hey, helpme understand fill in the blank.
Mhmm. You know, tell me whatthat's like for you. Tell me
about your family or where yougrew up.
There's just a genuine interestand what that does is it grows
(08:22):
people's trust and they view youas, hey, you genuinely care
about me. And so there's a lotof ways that you can cultivate
listening and growing. I thinkthough that the big thing is
just to name the fact that weare in a listening deficit in
our, like, society. Yeah. Welisten to content and we listen
(08:44):
to, like, you know, contentcreators and influencers and
things like that.
But when it comes to justpeople, there's a whole lot of
talking and there's not anactual, like, embodied listening
with people, and it's reallypowerful.
Ben Loy (08:55):
Yeah. Do you have any examples of whether it's as a
(10:41):
pastor or at the salon, like,that really as you began to
practice it, like, really showedhow valuable it was?
John Crawford (10:48):
I think a huge one actually, is a great one
because this was where I I sawthe power of listening for
peacemaking and conflictresolution. Back in 2020,
obviously tensions wereheightened. The world was there
was a lot of uncertainty and alot of conflict, a lot of
division, a lot of polarizationand all of that. So it actually
(11:09):
happened within our our churchcommunity that, something was
said in a, in a communicationfrom one of our pastors. And
based on what was said, it was,addressing some of the current
political tension in 2020because everything was
heightened around race andjustice and COVID and masking
(11:33):
and vaccinations.
Like, everything was just likeIf
Ben Loy (11:36):
you if you wanted a reason to be upset, there was
one you could find for sure.
John Crawford (11:39):
Yeah. You know, like, people are gonna get
upset. And so he he did not makeany kind of statement or a
position, but he he addressedsomething pertaining to the
political division. And it hadto do with, race, like the race
injustice conversation. Well, aguy in our congregation got
(12:01):
really angry, really angry.
He was a member at our church, aleader, and he emailed me. I
wasn't the one that said it. Itwas one of our other leaders. He
emailed me and said, hey, Ican't believe that this was
said. I am so upset by this thatI'm leaving the church.
I'm no longer gonna be a memberhere, and I'm leaving. And I was
(12:24):
like, woah. Woah. Woah. Youknow, I've I've met with this
guy a lot, and and he was aleader, and so it was just like,
woah.
You know, I think there's amisunderstanding here. He had
explained what he thought heheard and so in my response to
him, I was like, hey, thanks somuch for emailing me. I'm so
sorry to hear this. Hey, can weget together? Would you meet
with me?
And he emailed back and heagreed to it. So we met. And it
(12:49):
was I knew going in, this guy'salready upset. So there's
already a degree of conflicthappening. And I don't really
know how he's gonna show up tothe meeting, if I'm gonna get
yelled at, you know, if he'sgonna fly off the handle or
what.
And so I just, you know, prayedand felt like the right thing to
do was I'm just gonna ask him alot of questions, and I'm just
gonna take the posture oflistening. And it was so
(13:12):
interesting. We met in personand we were socially distanced
because this is, like, peak ofthe pandemic, So we were
socially distanced. He's sitting20 feet away from me, you know?
But I remember just asking him aseries of questions and I didn't
seek to defend myself.
Was generally I was trying tounderstand, like, hey, what
about this was so upsetting?Like, help me understand linked
(13:35):
it back to, like, his story.Man, I will never forget. This
is another one of those where Iwas, like, convinced about the
power of listening. This guycame in just, like, visibly
angry, you know, tense, like,body posture, nonverbal
nonverbal communication.
It's like, this guy, like, wantsto throw down, you know? And he
was so upset and, man, I juststart asking just some questions
(13:58):
and he starts he starts talkingand it just, like, his posture
within five minutes, dude,changes. No longer crossed arms,
like, visibly relaxes. He startsleaning back because he was,
like, real rigid, you know? Andhis whole posture changed.
And we then end up meeting forabout an hour and a half, and I
(14:20):
just keep asking him questions.He starts telling me a story of
back when he was in college, andthis guy's an older guy. Back
when he was in college, well,the very thing that he was upset
about, a comment about thepolitical division. Well,
something had happened in hislife at college pertaining to
the topic of race and politics.I had no idea.
(14:44):
Just by listening to him and Ibecause I was asking him, was
like, hey. What what about thiswas so upsetting? It seems like
this is really upsetting. Andthen he starts to go into his
whole story and we're talking,like, thirty years ago. And so
then I just asked him, I said,hey.
Do you it sounds like this wasthis was, like, deeply impactful
in your life. Do you think,like, maybe this is connected to
(15:04):
why you're feeling so upset?And, man, he hadn't made that
connection. And in the meetingWow. He makes the connection.
And he's like, yeah. You wannaknow it? And so then I walked
back after I listened to him forabout an hour. I walked back and
said, hey. This is what wassaid.
Like, it seems like you thoughtyou heard this.
Ben Loy (15:22):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (15:23):
But, like, can we go back and, like, listen to it?
You know? And and then it waslike, oh, it was clearly not.
This guy ended up not onlychanging his whole posture, he
ended up apologizing. Wow.
And then he was so mad that heended up apologizing to the
leader who he was so upset whosaid this. Mhmm. And he ended up
(15:43):
apologizing to the leader, andhe stayed at the church. He
didn't leave the church. And youjust go, man, I like I didn't I
didn't argue him.
I didn't try to convince himotherwise. I just asked him a
bunch of questions, and then hemade this connection of, like,
thirty years ago, something thathappened in college that he had
deep pain and baggage for Yep.Was connected to this. And this
actually wasn't about what theleader at the church said, it
(16:05):
was actually about all of thisstuff in the past. Yeah.
And there was conflictresolution. Yeah. Like, it led
to high man, really hightension, and just listening was
a means of peacemaking. Yeah.And and so that that's like one
that I think of of like, man,was just so powerful because you
could visibly see him just likerelax.
(16:26):
Yeah. I was like, oh, I thought,you know, because I'm sure he
was thinking I was gonna go athim and like, hey, you're wrong,
you're right, you know. Yeah.Because that's what happened to
him in college.
Ben Loy (16:33):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (16:33):
And then you just go, no, I'm just like, man, I
care about you and I wanna hear,you know? Yeah. Just totally
changed.
Ben Loy (16:39):
How do you balance because I actually, I think the
church is a really interestingstudy on this because the pulpit
is a stage where it is it leansheavily on the assertive side.
Right? Pastor's not getting upand, like, asking questions from
the congregation in the moment.So, like, they're preaching,
they're proclaiming the word ofGod, they're being assertive in
in what they're saying. Yeah.
(17:01):
And then, like, balancing thatwith with the act of listening
and the practice of listening.Like, in this conversation, it
sounds like Yeah. You you did.You navigated both both
listening and assertiveness. Cancan you speak into that a little
bit?
John Crawford (17:17):
Dude, that's a great question. I think for me,
and different people who goabout this differently, for me,
I think what I have, what I havelearned to be most beneficial in
in my context is to lead withlistening. And then when there's
an opportunity to maybe beassertive or to say what needs
(17:40):
to be said, to do it. Mhmm. Butyou are coming once again, it's
the whole, people don't care howmuch you know till they know how
much you care.
Ben Loy (17:49):
Yep.
John Crawford (17:49):
And then if it's like, hey, you feel cared for. I
listened. I came in with agenuine posture. Not not an
agenda just to, like, bait andswitch you, but a genuine
posture of, like, hey, I careabout you.
Ben Loy (17:59):
Yeah.
John Crawford (18:00):
And you've got a story, and help me understand.
And then there usually is alwaysan opportunity to say what needs
to be said. Mhmm. But you'redoing it out of a out of a place
of being well informed ofinstead of just saying the thing
from listening, man, I feelempathy for this person. Like,
your story is not my story.
Ben Loy (18:21):
Yep.
John Crawford (18:22):
And I could actually see like, I don't I
don't see it how you see it, butI can understand how you got
there.
Ben Loy (18:28):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (18:29):
You know? And so I think for me, I have I have
learned to lead with listeningand ask a lot of questions to
then also help me betterformulate how I'm gonna
communicate something that mightneed to be communicated. Yeah.
Because there are. Like, you youcan't just always only listen to
people.
Right. You need to Yep. Youknow, especially in leadership.
You know, there's things thatneed to be said. People need to
(18:51):
be challenged.
You don't just accept everycrazy thing that's ever said.
It's like, oh, yeah. That'stotally fine. Like, sometimes
you need to correct people outof love
Ben Loy (18:59):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (18:59):
Or just say, hey, this is this is the thing that
needs to be said, and this isjust what you need to know, and
so that there is there is a, howyou navigate that, and I think
it would be different indifferent contexts Right. Of,
I'm a pastor, you know, and andit may be different in the
marketplace if you're leading acompany or something like that,
but I do feel like the thingthat isn't different is
(19:20):
listening is so powerful. Yeah.You know? And people will feel
loved by you and cared for byyou and known, and therefore
they are in a better posture andposition themselves to receive
whatever you have to say.
Sure.
Ben Loy (19:33):
I would argue in the marketplace, I'd see I'd say
it's more similar than it isdifferent, right, even from a
pastoral to the marketplace. Imean, regardless, like, you're a
leader, you're interacting withpeople, people with backgrounds,
histories, experience, traumas,stresses in their own lives. And
and, like, listening gives youthe ability to step into their
(19:54):
shoes, understand as much as youcan what's going on in the
background. So, yeah, I wouldsay there's there's more
similarities than there are
John Crawford (20:02):
Yeah. Differences. It makes sense. It
makes a lot of sense that therewould be. Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben Loy (20:06):
What would you say to someone who maybe maybe they
say, like, I wish I wassurrounded by more listeners or,
you know, maybe maybe they feellike they're always the one
that's listening and they feelmaybe, I don't know, burdened by
that.
John Crawford (20:19):
If you are a leader, you will necessarily
take on the greater burden. Butit's also important that you
have someone to listen to you,and so I think, you know, you've
gotta figure out who that is,close friends, people that care
for you, other leaders that youfeel relationally like you
(20:40):
trust. But in leadership, Ithink that's part of the burden
and the weight of leadership isyou should be listening to the
people you're leading more thanthey should be seeking you out
to listen to you. Now, honestly,when when you are giving a
directive, they have to listento you. Right?
You know? Because, like, you'retheir boss or whatever. But as
(21:00):
far as if you're wanting justsomeone to listen to you all the
time, you're probably not gonnaget that. Mhmm. But you need it
for your own sake as being ahealthy leader to be able to
process things.
Like, leadership is lonely Yeah.And it's hard, and so you need
healthy outlets. You know, forsome, they they find that in
therapy. For others, they findthat in, like, covenant
friendships where it's likepeople that really love you,
(21:20):
trust you. For others it is likeif you're a marketplace leader,
it's your pastors, things likethat, you need it though.
But I would just say that's partof the burden that you take on
of the weight of leadership issaying, yeah, that should be
actually a normal thing.
Ben Loy (21:38):
Dive in a little bit more on to how do you lead
(22:44):
through listening, where doesthat actually come into play?
John Crawford (22:48):
I think you could you could throw out, like, a lot
of scenarios. The biggest onewould be, you know, leading
through change is a reallyhelpful one Mhmm. Of being able
to listen to people and hearwhere they're at before making a
decision is really helpful. Orif a decision had already been
made because of the organizationstructure and the team that made
(23:11):
the decision, then it'slistening to people on how they
might have concerns about adecision and how it's going
affect them. So I think thatthat could be one.
A big one is we all know thatconflict is a part of
leadership. Conflict is not bad,but it's what you do conflict.
Can be really bad or it canactually strengthen a team and
(23:34):
relationship and it can be asource of growth. So listening
is actually a means of, and Ishared this with that story, but
resolving conflict. And there'sa lot of conflict on teams.
And so once again, I think it'swhen you listen, you are being
well informed instead ofbelieving the worst. And so I
think it also provides then teamcamaraderie and cohesion because
(23:58):
people feel known. And so Ithink there is a degree of how
it affects the team where whenpeople feel like, hey, Ben is a
really good listener. I know ifI have something going on in my
life, he's going listen to me. Ialso know that I'm not just like
a cog in the wheel, but heactually cares about me.
(24:19):
I have seen is listening is alsowhen it comes to efficiency, it
seems like listening is reallyinefficient. Yeah. It's
actually, I would argue, themost efficient way to lead is
with the ear because a lot ofinefficiencies is from unknown,
(24:39):
unmet expectations. And so bylistening, you actually save
yourself a lot of the downstreamwork. Yeah.
And so I actually think it'smore efficient as well.
Efficiency in organizations,right? Because sometimes in
church, like the church world,it can be different and it's
like, oh, yeah, of course,you're a pastor, you just listen
to people all the time. But whenit's, organizations and
(25:02):
efficiency, the more efficientthing in listening and what
oftentimes happens is you end upspending a lot of time on unmet
or misaligned expectations, alot of time on conflict, and it
ends up being really, reallyinefficient. And so if you just
(25:24):
do like the math, yeah, youknow, it might take you a couple
hours to listen to some people,but if you don't do that on the
front end, the downstream, youmight have twenty, thirty, forty
hours of conflicts of whateverit may be that you're trying to
sort out, and then I just thinkit's good for overall,
retention.
Yeah. Like, people wanna workfor a leader that they feel like
(25:47):
actually is interested in theirlife, that has actually sought
to understand them and theirstory and what they care about
and what their hopes are andwhat their dreams are and what
their fears are, you know, allof that. It's like, man, if this
is, like, innate in every humanbeing, like, we long to be known
Ben Loy (26:03):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (26:04):
And you work for a leader or an organization
where, like, that's present,that's that's invaluable. You
know? And so I also think it's,like, you know, it's a retention
thing too. And so I thinkthere's a lot of ways that it
that it plays out. Yeah.
You know, those are some off thetop of my head. Yeah. Obviously
in like more counseling andcare, you know, that that's a
(26:25):
more natural one. That's why Ididn't go there. But these are
some where I would say in teamsand organizations, like where
it, I think is reallybeneficial.
Ben Loy (26:32):
Yeah. I really like that you touched on efficiency
because I think oftentimes,especially from a leadership
perspective, the nature is tolike put your head down and just
push through and be having thewherewithal to stop, like lift
your head up and ask questionsto the people around you about
where they're at. Like what aretheir hopes? What are their
fears? Yeah.
(26:53):
How do they see themselvesfitting into the organization or
the plan or project or agendathat you have? Yeah, you'd
probably save yourself a lot ofheartache. Yeah. How would you
define effective listening?
John Crawford (27:06):
One of the things that I would say is you've got,
the difference between hearingand listening. So hearing is
something that simply justhappens. It's one of your five
senses, right? Like, we arehearing each other right now or
you're hearing a plane outside,but, listening is something
different. Like, both of themuse your ears, but listening is
(27:28):
where you make the choice to tryto actively understand what
you've heard.
And so what I would sayeffective listening, if I were
to define it, is where you areanother way is I would just say
it's actively listening. Right?And there's ways that you can
actively listening activelylisten to people. But I would
say effective listening is whereyou are actively engaged and you
(27:49):
are dialed into the person. Youare not just hearing them where
it goes.
You know, we've all had that,you know, like, yeah, I totally
heard my teacher give thehomework, but I did not listen
and I don't know how to do itnow, you know? Yep. And we all
know that, that feeling whereit's like, I totally heard, but
I didn't listen. But I'm, like,not just hearing you, I'm
listening with the intent to tryto understand. And so when I
(28:12):
would say effective listening isis that it's interpersonally and
it's organizationally.
I don't think it's just alwaysone on one, but I think it's
where you actively trying tounderstand the people you're
leading or even your customers.Right? There that there's a
listening to now, did I justwanna, like, hear some feedback
from our clients or did I reallywant to actively listen to say
(28:34):
like, hey, I wanna understandthis because we actually may
wanna, like, implement somestuff. Effective listening, one
of the things that I always sayis, a good listening or
effective listening to yourquestion always starts with the
question of how can I make thisconversation about the other
person? And so if you are goingas a leader like, hey, this
(28:57):
conversation isn't about me, buthow can I make this conversation
about you, Ben?
And so I am showing up with theintent to listen and to try to
understand. And that's not withan agenda attached to it, but
it's really just to say, hey,I'm not gonna make this
conversation about me. It'sactually about you and so I know
(29:17):
going into it that I'm going todo more listening than speaking.
Yeah. And so I think thateffective listening is is just
that.
Servant leadership. Servantleadership. Yeah. Yeah. In
which, honestly, if you look atwho is the the pinnacle of
servant leadership thateverybody looks at is Jesus.
Mhmm. Right? Like, that's whereservant leadership comes from is
(29:40):
his ministry. And Jesus asksover 300 questions in the
gospels. And it's like, well,depending on who you believe
Jesus is, you and I areChristians, and so we believe
he's God.
And if Jesus is God, well, healready knows the answer. So why
is he asking all thesequestions? Well, he's doing it
(30:03):
out of a means of loving andcaring for the people on the
other side, that he's givingthem the opportunity to be
heard, to be known, to be loved.He doesn't need to ask them. He
he already knows, you know, andthere's examples of that in the
gospels where Jesus alreadyknows their story.
He know he knows your namebefore, you know, all of that,
and yet he's doing somethingbecause listening is a means of
(30:25):
love. And so I think, yeah, it'sservant leadership. You know,
like, this is this is an innatedesire that every single person
has. And so when you go, hey,I'm not gonna make this
conversation about me, you'reserving people. And you're
leading out of out of a heart ofa servant to care for the people
you're leading.
Ben Loy (30:41):
What would you say is the biggest, blocker for people
in in, like, listening well?
John Crawford (30:48):
One is we get distracted really easily. I
think a part of activelylistening and effective is to
not be looking at your phone or,you know, you get a text and
looking at every single textmessage. Yeah. And so one of the
practices that that, I learnedfrom someone was either put your
phone away where it's not inview or you flip it over. If
(31:12):
it's gotta be out, you know,emergency type thing, like flip
it over so your screen you'renot always getting the
notifications, But you it's hardto be actively engaged and
listening if you're checkingtext messages.
Somebody's talking to you andyou're looking down at your
phone, you know, looking attexts or responding to a text.
Clearly, you're not activelylistening to the person and
texting someone, you know? So Ithink that that's like a really
(31:33):
practical one. Another thingthat makes it hard besides,
distraction is a lot of timespeople don't know how to ask
good questions. The worst kindof question you can ask someone
is a why question.
So you may wonder why, right?The the reason for that is when
(31:56):
you ask someone a why question,it immediately puts them on the
defensive. So a lot of times,people don't really know how to
ask good open ended questions.So it's just like, hey, did you
like that? It's like, well,that's a closed ended question.
Ben Loy (32:09):
It's a
John Crawford (32:10):
yes or no. Yep. But how do you have good
questions and how do you notjust go, well, why do you think
that way? You know, if you tellme that the tacos that we're
gonna eat later are the besttacos, and I'm like a taco
skeptic, and I'm like, well,well, why? Why would you say
that?
You know, like, I think thisplace has the best tacos. You're
automatically gonna go on thedefensive. Mhmm. And you're
(32:30):
gonna have to try to, like,prove your case of, like, these
tacos are the best. Mhmm.
But if I just say, like, hey,what makes what makes you think
that they're the best tacos?Yeah. Well, you're like, man,
dude, it's, like, the salsa, youknow, and you just start to then
explain it instead of like, oh,I gotta defend myself. Yeah. Or,
hey, how many how many othertaco places have you been to in
the city?
You know? And it's like, oh,well, two. Okay. So it's like
(32:53):
the best of two. But if you'relike, dude, I'm a taco
connoisseur and I've been to 300taco spots, This is the best out
of 300.
Well, it's different than justlike the why. Right. That's a
trivial example, but if youstart to go in like an
organizational setting wherethere's like some complexities
and maybe high emotion and youenter in with the why question
(33:16):
of, like, well, why do you feelthat? Why why are you offended?
Mhmm.
You know, it's just like, dude,people you get the worst of
people. Yeah. Because they feellike, oh, something's wrong with
me Yep. And now I gotta defendmyself.
Ben Loy (33:26):
Yeah.
John Crawford (33:26):
So I would say asking good questions is hard. A
lot of times, people don't knowwhat good questions are. They
resort to, and we all do it, isa why question, but that's not
actually a great question. It'ssomething that I always love to
do is, I have two or three, whatI would say is, like, really
good questions that I alwayshave in, like, my back pocket
(33:47):
or, like, up my sleeve. Theseare, my go tos.
So, you know, sometimes people,they're just gonna Mhmm. But if
you're wondering, like, man, howcan I really get maybe some
depth and to get a deeperunderstanding? So, I'll give you
two of mine. So you you can takethese if you want. So one of my
favorites is tell me about atime in your life when, fill in
(34:08):
the blank.
Now you can go, like, fun withit, but you can go go deep.
Yeah. You know? Tell me about atime in your life when you felt
seen by your dad. It's like,dude, you're gonna get into some
deep stuff.
Mhmm. All of a sudden, yourealize, like, oh, this person
didn't have a dad. Yep. Youknow? Or, hey, like, tell me
about a time in your life thatyou went to a theme park and
(34:29):
you, like, loved a ride.
You know? Like, you can gohowever, but, like, just tell me
about a time in your life when,and you can fill in the blank
for whatever you're curiousabout.
Ben Loy (34:38):
Sure.
John Crawford (34:38):
Dude, that one is like gold. It's so good. Yeah.
That question, and then this ismy favorite question to ask is,
what has that been like for you?And that question seeks to
generally understand someoneelse's story and lived
experience, and that will thatwill make someone feel like,
(35:00):
man, you're really trying tounderstand like, hey, I don't
know what it was like to I'mborn and raised in Arizona.
Like, I don't know what it waslike to live in Canada. Like
Mhmm. Tell me what that was likefor you to, like or, hey, you
have dual citizenship. Tell mewhat that was like. Or you go
really deep into it or,
Ben Loy (35:16):
like Yeah.
John Crawford (35:16):
Hey, somebody, you know, they're talking about
a previous employer experienceand and something gnarly
happened. And it's like, hey,tell me what it was like for you
when that happened to you atyour last Mhmm. You know? And so
that that is those two questionsare really helpful. Yeah.
There's other ones too, butthose are like two of my
favorites.
Ben Loy (35:34):
No. That's good. That second one's like the ultimate
open ended question because it'sit is 100% through their eyes
and their lived experience andtheir emotions and Yep. I mean,
you will I would imagine youwill never ever ever get the
same answer to that questionfrom different people or maybe
even from the same persondepending on what you're
(35:55):
touching on.
John Crawford (35:56):
Yeah. You you probably won't. And what you
probably will get are, a lot oftears a lot of times. And that
that's one of my one one of thereasons why I love that question
so much is it connects so deeplyemotionally with people. The
number of people who have criedwhen I've asked them that
question, men and women.
Yeah. They're just like break.Because once again, you can
(36:16):
apply that to anything. Yeah.It's like, hey, tell me what it
was like when a really hardthing.
Like, of your, one of yourcoworkers, man, their their
brother was killed. Yeah. It'slike, man, tell me what that was
like for you when you're goingthrough that, you know, after
your brother died, you know, andit's like, dude, you're gonna
get tears, you know, or whateverit is. Do you
Ben Loy (36:35):
have any other, like, maybe someone wants to formulate
their own questions or any otherpractical, like, tools people
can use if they wanna if theywanna start listening better?
John Crawford (36:46):
One is to to write, like, two to three open
ended good questions. Like andif you if you wanna take those
ones and, use them, use them.But if you wanna modify them to
give you some kind of, like,question template, have two to
three go to questions. And thereason why I recommend that is
sometimes it's hard to think ofreally good questions. Like, oh,
(37:07):
I got a book of, like, 50questions.
That's hard, but if you havesome open ended ones like this
that you can apply to anyconversation or situation, those
will just work. Then you don'thave to overly think about it.
The other one is, if you want topractically grow as a listener,
(37:30):
spend time around a really goodlistener. I've said this before
and even on another podcastepisode, but it's just true. Is
if you are trying to learn, thebest way to learn some of this
stuff isn't to be taught it,it's to see it modeled in real
life and to experience it.
When you have been on thereceiving end of someone asking
(37:50):
you really good questions andlistening to you, you're like,
man, I wanna learn from thatperson. And more things are
caught than taught. And so Icould teach you how to grow as a
listener, but when you spendtime around a really good
listener, it'll rub off on you,and you see it actually made
visible. It's not just someconcept in a book or on a
podcast, but, like, man, that'samazing, you know? Mhmm.
(38:10):
And so I would say try to try tospend time around someone that's
a really good listener and seewhat they do, you know, because
they'll probably do some stuffmaybe similar to what I'm
saying, but they'll might dosome stuff different that might
actually be even better and morehelpful. I have it as a goal,
like a practice of when I wasreally trying to grow in
listening of the eighty twentyrule. So what I do, and what I
(38:34):
what I did several years ago isto go into conversations to say,
hey, I am going to listen 80% ofthe time and only speak 20% of
the time. And that 20% willprobably be when I'm asked.
Like, hey, what do you thinkabout that?
Or what about you? Then I'llspeak. I'm not going to refrain
and be silent, but to say, hey,80% of this meeting that I'm
(38:57):
about to have, I want it to bethe other person talking. That's
a really helpful just to make ita discipline to think about it,
and it doesn't have to beeightytwenty, but percentage to
say, Hey, the goal of thismeeting, if I'm meeting with
this person for two hours, youdo the math of 80% of that time.
You should be asking questionsand seeking to understand and
(39:19):
then you'll speak.
So those are some that have justbeen, like, helpful for me. I
think the big one is just havingsome good questions to ask,
having the the posture ofactively listening, not being on
your phone Mhmm. Not beingdistracted, but to say, hey, I'm
present with you. Then I thinkit's just helpful if you see it
modeled so that you are able tosay, oh, there's different ways
(39:41):
that you can do this, especiallyin different contexts. So those
would some of the ones that Ithink have been helpful for me
that I think have helped otherpeople as well.
Sure.
Ben Loy (39:50):
What would you say to someone who maybe maybe they're
in the marketplace, you know,they they have a job, their
relationships at work feel moretransactional and maybe hurried.
Like, how how could someonebecause you're you're obviously
not gonna just step intosomeone's office and go, like,
tell me tell me your deepest,darkest secrets or, like, how
are yeah. Like, how are you howdo you bridge that gap and maybe
(40:13):
maybe start to take stepsrelationally with people around
you who you haven't even evenventured into this area with?
John Crawford (40:20):
Dude, that's a great question. Obviously,
depends on, like, theorganization and the structure
of size and and teams and allthat, but I would say start with
whoever you are closest to inthe organization. So if it's, if
it's a peer, start there. Youknow, start with a peer. Maybe
it's not someone that's a directreport, but maybe it's your
peer, start there.
And maybe maybe it's been kindof a transactional, like you and
(40:42):
I are peers and it's kind ofbeen transactional, but say,
hey, we're peers. I'd love tolike, man, can we grab lunch
sometime? I'd love to just getto know you more because and I
would even name it like, hey,sometimes I feel like this peer
to peer is kind oftransactional, like, it'd be
cool. We're rubbing shoulders.We're, you know, we're working
towards the same goal.
Like, let's connect. I wouldstart there. Think, just like
(41:05):
everything, if you're trying togrow as a listener, I would
start somewhere and grow. Don'tbe like, Hey, I'm going to
listen to every single employee.That's also maybe just
impractical for theorganization.
And even for me, like, as apastor of the size of the
church, I don't meet with everysingle person in the church. You
know, the hope is that everybodyon our staff is connecting with,
you know, people in the church,but it's just there's too many
(41:27):
people in the church for justme. And honestly, even on our
staff, you know? Like, staff isso big that we have to have,
obviously, different people whoare listening to their direct
reports on staff. And so I wouldsay start somewhere small.
Start maybe with a peer, startwith somebody that maybe you're
most comfortable with because itcan be a little intimidating,
especially if this changes likethe MO for how you navigate. And
(41:51):
then I think you'll see thefruit of it. Mhmm. I have never
talked to someone that beganpracticing listening that said
it was unfruitful or a waste.Everybody sees the benefit in
it.
It can be awkward at first,especially if it's like, oh,
this is new, you know, but,people see the fruit of it
because it just it's how humansare wired.
Ben Loy (42:11):
Yeah.
John Crawford (42:11):
And so people will respond in a different way,
and they will receive yourleadership in a different way.
Mhmm. So I'd start somewheresmall.
Ben Loy (42:20):
Yeah. What would you say are the the biggest primary
benefits of listening well,whether that's from a leadership
perspective or just relationallyone on one.
John Crawford (42:29):
A big benefit is that you will better understand
the people that you're leading.Like, that's just like, from,
like, baseline Mhmm. The thebiggest benefit is you will
begin to not assume the worstand believe the worst about
people and we're all prone to dothat, but that's when we're
given the least amount ofinformation and we make
(42:49):
assumptions about people. And sofor you as a leader, you will be
able to enter in to someone'slife in a different way and
you'll see their even if youdon't agree with it, you'll see
how they're getting to wherethey're getting. And there's a
power in proximity.
Mhmm. And proximity breedsempathy And that's where, you
know, talking about, like,feeling for someone of, dang,
(43:12):
that's your story. I had noidea. I didn't know that
happened to you. Proximitybreeds empathy, but distance
breeds suspicion.
Mhmm. And when you don't haveand you don't even have like, we
could still be like this acrossthe table on a team, but still
have distance. Like, I don'tknow you. You don't know me. We
don't you know?
And what that does is it breedssuspicion. And so some of what
this really does is it actuallymakes a team much closer and
(43:35):
more cohesive, and that'ssomewhere where the retention
comes in, is that you canactually create a culture in
your organization or your placeof employment through listening,
a culture of listening. And it'shonestly, the the way that it's
felt is a humble leadershipculture. It's like, hey, the
leaders are actually seeking tohear from me. They're not just
coming in heavy handed, tellingme what I need to do or telling
(43:58):
me what I don't know or tellingme this, but they actually care
about me and it's going to bereceived as humility.
I think that's a big benefit.Think you have another one
outside of the conflictresolution stuff. I think that's
a huge benefit where I've seenit play out the most from my own
vantage point experience. Thebiggest benefit is the conflict
(44:20):
resolution. So much conflict isfrom unmet expectations or
misaligned expectations and it'sjust a lack of listening and
communicating.
People just misunderstand eachother, you know? And so I think
that that's a huge benefit. Onethat I one that we haven't hit
though is in most businesses,and I know even in the church,
(44:41):
we want to develop leaders. Wewant more leaders. We want the
next generation of leaders.
We want more, you know, like,more teams, you know, people who
have an ownership mentality forwhat we're doing. And, man, when
you seek to listen andunderstand people, it actually
can provide a pool of potentialfuture leaders. And so it's just
(45:05):
a great way to actually get toknow the people that you're
working with and are workingunder you. And so I think the
retention is a benefit of that.But the leadership development
piece is huge.
To say, man, I've beenconnecting with Ben and this guy
is great. He's a leader. We'veto figure out some environments
or pathways for him, what mightthat look like? But that only
(45:27):
happens by doing this.
Ben Loy (45:29):
Yeah. You know? That makes me think of, like, any
mentorship type relationshipsI've ever had. And it's
hilarious because you you go toa mentor and you think, oh,
they're just gonna, like, pourinto me and give me all this
information. Most of the time,like, 90% of a mentor
relationship is, like, me askingthem a bunch of or them asking
me a bunch of questions and mejust, like, word vomiting and
(45:52):
sharing about my life and thenand then to kind of put, like,
you know, there is some guidanceand things involved in that.
But it it it often is more themasking questions than anything
else and and then that creatingclarity and guidance for, like,
the way that I wanna grow, theway I wanna develop as a leader.
Yeah. It kinda flips theexpectation on its head.
John Crawford (46:11):
Dude, the, I love that I love what you just said
about mentors because typically,a mentor is viewed as someone
that's wise. Mhmm. And I havenever met a wise person that
wasn't a really good listener.Mhmm. Like, it's almost
synonymous.
Yep. You know, like, there'ssomething about wisdom of, like,
hey, I wanna listen. And even,like, in scripture, in the
(46:33):
Bible, something that has beenreally helpful for me is in
James one, I think it's 19through 21. But be quick to
listen, slow to speak, and slowto become angry because the
anger of man doesn't produce therighteousness of God. To
translate that into just nonbiblical languages, hey, don't
(46:53):
be quick to speak because itactually leads to anger.
And when you're quick to anger,it's the worst of you is gonna
come out. Be quick to listeninstead. Mhmm. And that's why I
think so many wise people embodythis. Like, in in James, it's
wisdom literature and it'sshowing you this is how wise
people live is be quick tolisten.
Mhmm. But so often, like, evenin my own life, I used to talk
(47:17):
all the time. Talk over people.Like, my meetings were always,
like, I'm telling everybody andI'm dominating. And yet, also,
like, when you're quick tospeak, you're also gonna be
quick to become angry.
Mhmm. And that's not gonnaproduce good things. Yeah. It's
gonna create chaos and conflictand all of that. But listening
is actually a really, reallypowerful means of embodying
(47:41):
wisdom in people's lives.
Yeah. How do listening andcontrol, interact? Dude, that's
a great question, man. Listeningand control, when you listen,
you are actually not seeking tobe in control. You actually give
someone else the feeling ofbeing in control based on you're
(48:06):
asking them to answer yourquestions and and genuine
curiosity.
And so I think you are giving upcontrol in that, which is why I
think it's you're servingsomeone. But I think the fruit
of it, the benefit of being alistening leader or just
listening in life is you don'thave to force control. You don't
(48:28):
have to try to take control.Because people feel loved and
cared for by you, they want tosubmit to your leadership and
follow you, and so it leads youto being able to actually lead.
Ben Loy (48:39):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (48:40):
And I don't think you have to grasp for control or
try to dominate and implementlike I'm going to control
because people respect you. AndI think that when leaders aren't
respected a lot of times, theyoftentimes have to make the case
for this is why you need tofollow me and, you know
Ben Loy (48:56):
Yep.
John Crawford (48:56):
And so I think it it it's actually, like, the
byproduct of this is you don'thave have to, like, fight for it
or vie for it or force it. Yeah.That's what I say
Ben Loy (49:03):
off the off the cuff. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, it just speaks back intothat that idea of servant
leadership. Like Totally.Relational investment. Right?
Building trust within both thepeople that that follow you and
and peer to peer as well.
Right?
John Crawford (49:17):
Yeah. I think the going back to the beginning is,
like, on the epidemic ofloneliness, there's even now,
like I would make the case,there's now more of a need for
it Mhmm. Than in 2019. So if youjust play out what happened with
COVID, social distance,isolation, everything post COVID
(49:41):
Virtual work.
Ben Loy (49:42):
Yeah. Yeah.
John Crawford (49:43):
Yep. Virtual work, more and more digitization
of now we're in the age of AIand now people are actually
forming relationships with bots.People are talking to bots. Then
there's all kinds of differentbots, not just romantic ones but
there's therapeutic bots. Youcan have a chatbot for your
therapy.
And, like, all of all this isjust showing us people are,
(50:05):
like, craving this, and peoplethat we work with are craving
it. And I even had aconversation with a guy, and and
he's not like a a strange guy. Iwas actually pretty I was pretty
surprised to hear him say it,you know, because he's not a
socially awkward guy or anythinglike that, but he said that he's
realized that the person he hasnow started to talk with the
most is ChatGPT. Like, he'sformed, like, a dialogue, like,
(50:27):
relationship with ChatGPT. Mhmm.
And you just go, man, like,people are longing to be
listened to. And if we were inan epidemic of loneliness in
2019 before COVID, beforeOpenAI, you know, before all of
the things, and you just see,like, we are still in a mental
health epidemic. The use andneed of therapists is greater
(50:53):
now than ever has been. Mhmm. SoAnd this isn't even among old
people or our age.
This is the next generation aswell. This is Gen Z and even
younger than Gen Z that arelike, man, people are lonely. I
think that that's just somethingto be said because I didn't
close the loop on that. Like,this wasn't just a 2019 problem.
Yeah.
But it's actually gotten worse.Yep. You know? And so, I think
(51:16):
that that a lot of people thatwe are whether we're leading
them, whether we're working withthem, whether they're our
clients, you know, like myclients at the salon is people
are, like, longing for this butfeel like I mean, you can't be
really listened to on socialmedia or online, you know, and
so, yeah, there's just I thinkthere's a huge opportunity to
lead in listening. Mhmm.
Ben Loy (51:38):
Well, and I think, like, our, like, relationships
have become increasingly moretransactional
John Crawford (51:43):
Yeah.
Ben Loy (51:43):
As, you know, yeah, we've moved into the digital age
and and technology andefficiencies. And so, like, what
I've even caught myself doing isis, like, there there are
moments where, maybe I needadvice in a certain area or I
need connections or whatever itis. Right? Just, like, trying to
understand or grasp a specifictopic. It could be finances, it
(52:05):
could be working on my car, Andin in a previous day and age,
you would reach out tocommunity, you'd reach out to
friends.
Yeah. You you might reach out toeven professional. So it is a
transactional relationship, butit's still a transactional
relationship with a human being.
John Crawford (52:20):
Yep.
Ben Loy (52:20):
And as this continues to grow and become more and more
part of our society, it willcontinue to be more and more
transactional. And Totally. I Imean, I'm interested to see
because I I think, yeah, thatloneliness culturally is really
gonna increase. Yep. And alsowith that, like, the need for
deep relationships Yeah.
Is also gonna increase. And Iyeah. I mean, listening just it
(52:43):
just seems like such a powerfulway to to break the ice on that.
John Crawford (52:46):
Yeah, man. I I agree. I agree.
Ben Loy (52:49):
Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to say on
this subject that you haven'tgotten to?
John Crawford (52:53):
No. I I think, like, the the motivation even
for me is, obviously, I'm apastor and and a Christian, but
I think that this is not justall of the need that we're
naming of, like, our societalmoment and our cultural moment,
but for me, this is God'sposture towards us. Mhmm. And so
in Psalm one sixteen, it saysthat God bends down and inclines
(53:18):
his ear or he bends down and helistens. He inclines his ear to
us and he listens to us.
And so I think just a huge thingis like, hey, this is not just
within our culture and themoment we're in. This is a human
desire and this is actually howGod acts towards us Mhmm. Is
that he bends down and listens.Mhmm. And so we have a really
(53:38):
powerful opportunity to embodythe listening presence of God to
others.
And so, that's part of reasonwhy I believe it's so so
powerful in people's lives.
Ben Loy (53:49):
In closing, if there was one step that someone could
take, to start to develop thisskill, whether it's a resource,
you know, a place to go, anaction they can take, what
John Crawford (54:01):
would you
Ben Loy (54:01):
say is is a good first step?
John Crawford (54:03):
I would say the best thing is to examine
yourself to see if you have agenuine desire Mhmm. To grow in
listening because you have towant it. If you don't want to
grow as a listener, you neverwill. So I I would say step one
is, do you want to actuallybecome a better listener? And if
you do, then I would say thenext step is come up with those,
(54:26):
like, two to three goodquestions that you can start to
ask people and and see thebenefit because you it'll all
be, like, ethereal andconceptual until you actually do
it and see, like, oh, this waslike this was powerful.
And then I think you'll beconvinced of it. And then, you
know, there's a lot of otherresources. So that's what I
would say. Yeah. It's like yougotta want it.
(54:46):
If so, come up with, like, two,three good questions. Use the
ones that I that I gave even ifyou don't know how to format
formulate those, and start,like, choose a person and say,
yeah, I want to try to get toknow them better, listen,
understand them, all of that.
Ben Loy (55:00):
Yeah, John, I really appreciate this conversation. I
know that, I mean, this is anarea that you're passionate
about, you've developed, youknow, you're a practitioner of.
And I know I even have, like,personally benefited from from
you developing this and just ourinteractions in the way that you
lead. So this was great. Thankyou.
John Crawford (55:16):
Yeah, man. Thanks, dude. It fun. Yep. Hey,
y'all.
Thanks so much for watching. Ifyou want more content like this,
we've got some killer stuffplanned. So make sure you rate,
review and subscribe. Let's go.Let's go.
Let's go.
Back in 2018, I was cutting hair that's what I
did for a living and I wascutting hair at the salon. One
of my longtime clients came infor a haircut, and, she sat down
in my chair, and I startedcombing through her hair and
said, hey, what what are wedoing with your hair today? And
I'll never forget what she said.She said, John, I don't need a
(00:26):
haircut. I just need someone tolisten to me.
And I remember when she saidthat, it, like, stopped me dead
in my tracks. For one, I'd neverheard that before, and I I
remember feeling, like, a realdeep sadness of like she was
gonna come in to see me for ahaircut, have me give her a
(00:47):
haircut that she didn't reallyneed, but she was gonna pay me
just so she would have somebodyto listen to her. And I remember
from that moment on, was like,hey, there's something here.
Like, there's something aboutlistening that is not only
really powerful, but it feelslike it's really needed right
now in our society. And this wasback before COVID broke out, but
(01:12):
a lot of the, studies that weredone back in 2019 before COVID
and the pandemic had diagnosedAmerica as being in an epidemic
of loneliness.
Yep. And people were lonelier in2019 than they ever had been in
the history of our country. Andfor the first time, young
(01:32):
people, Gen z at the time, werelonelier than the elderly. And I
just remember hearing that atthe salon, then I started to
hear more and more instances.And then in 2019, there's this
study that says we're in anepidemic of loneliness.
And then I was still cuttinghair at the salon, and so I'm
(01:53):
hearing this more and more. AndI even remember one of my
clients shortly after came in,different client, and said,
we're talking, I'm cutting hair,and my client said, hey, you
know what? I pay a therapist$150 an hour because no one will
listen to me, not even myspouse. And I just, there there
(02:15):
kept being, like, this recurringtheme of people don't have
anyone to listen to them. Mhmm.
And when people feel heard andwhen people feel like you are
listening, they they feel loved.You know, like people feel
loved, they feel known, and allthat. And so that was the the
first moment was back in 2018.Was like, man, there's something
(02:35):
really powerful about listening.Mhmm.
Ben Loy (02:38):
So how how are you approaching your interactions at
the salon before? Like, what wasyour mindset with because you're
obviously probably still havingconversations with them. Right?
John Crawford (02:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I think my mindset before, I cut
hair for years before this. Andit was like, Hey, the only
reason why someone's coming intothe salon is to get a haircut.
Yep.
And you kind of provide a littlebit of chitchat to make the time
go by, you know? So it's like,yeah, you don't want to have an
awkward, like silent periodwhile you're giving a haircut,
but the baseline assumption forme was someone's going to come
(03:10):
in and give me business and payme to give them the service of
cutting their actual hair. And,the approach then shifted of,
Hey, there's actually anotherservice that I'm offering that
is very valuable to people. Andwhen my client voiced that of
like, hey, I'm just coming inbecause I need you to listen to
(03:32):
me. I was like, man, there'sthere's something here.
And it it actually made me viewmy work at the salon
differently. Sure. And I startedto view it, you know, and
there's the age old, like, thesalon's the place where gossip
happens because people telltheir hairdresser or, like, my
hairdresser is my therapist. Itell them everything. So there's
always, like, a a understandingthat people talk to their barber
(03:52):
or hairdresser, but I it stillnever hit me on the importance
and the value and the need thatso many people, unlike me,
because I didn't feel this wayat the time, so many people feel
I don't have anybody in my lifeto listen to me, and that's
like, it's a tragic thing.
Mhmm.
Ben Loy (04:09):
So from, like, a leadership perspective, because
you you worked at a salon, andthen I think you owned did you
own a salon? Yeah. And then youalso were bi vocational and then
went into full time ministry.
John Crawford (04:20):
So Yeah. Crazy story. Right?
Ben Loy (04:22):
Yeah. Mean, insane. Right? So how, like, how have
you seen or how has that thattool for listening been applied
in the one on one sense withwith your, your clients at the
hair salon versus as you kind ofgrew in maybe influence and just
the amount of people you'reinteracting with in ministry.
Yeah.
(04:42):
Is there a is there a differencein the way you were applying it
or is it like a principle thatyou say would just, carry across
John Crawford (04:49):
the You know what? It has been something that
I've learned about and haveactively tried to grow in. And I
would say be because of that, Iwould say it's just applied
across the board. I think what Ihave come to realize is why
listening is so powerful isbecause every single person has
(05:09):
a story Mhmm. And every personlongs to be known.
And so what listening providesis it provides a space for
people's stories to actually beunderstood and listened to, and
all of our stories are are verydifferent and have shaped us.
And so by me listening to you,I'm actually hearing a bit of,
(05:32):
Hey, here's the things that havehappened in Ben's life and this
is how you've come to think oract or believe or whatever it is
in the way that you have. And inmy action of actively trying to
listen to you, you feel known.Mhmm. And so I think it's been
it's carried across in theleadership because when you're
(05:53):
able to listen, you can betterunderstand people, you're able
to actually feel a sense ofempathy and compassion instead
of believing the worst aboutsomeone Mhmm.
Because that's what we typicallydo is when we're given the least
amount of information, peoplewill automatically always
connect the dots in the mostpathological ways possible,
(06:15):
which means we're prone tobelieving the worst. Yep. And
when you ask questions andlisten, all of a sudden now you
fill in the gaps and I don'thave the least amount of
information, now I actually havethe appropriate amount of
information and so I can betterunderstand the people that I'm
leading, the people that I'mpastoring, and I feel a sense of
deep empathy and even compassionfor people to help them. And so
(06:36):
it's been it's been reallyhelpful. And so I would say it
just carried over but it's it'slooked differently, I think,
from the salon to, a churchsetting.
Ben Loy (06:45):
Yeah. How how does that fit into because I I I feel like
one of the things you'respeaking into is, like, trust
even in a relationship. Like,your listening establishes
trust.
John Crawford (06:56):
Totally.
Ben Loy (06:57):
How does that fit into the way that we interact today
in our own culture and, yeah,just just some of the unique
dynamics of
John Crawford (07:05):
Oh, man.
Ben Loy (07:06):
Social media, you know, everything's digital. Versus
yeah. Like, how do you listen ina in a world that is so noise
heavy? Man, the the world we
John Crawford (07:17):
live in is we're surrounded by noise all the time
where everyone is talking butvery few people are listening.
And everybody's got opinions,everybody's posting stuff,
everybody's commenting,everybody is putting out
content, you know, and sothere's there's not a shortage
of people talking, there's ashortage of people listening.
And so I think you're you'reexactly right on the trust
(07:41):
piece. When you listen tosomeone because they feel known,
because they feel heard, whichis what they're longing for, you
will grow their trust. And, Iforget who said it, it's another
one of those things where it'slike, I don't know who said it,
who gets the credit, but it'sthe age old people don't care
how much you know until theyknow how much you care.
(08:01):
Yep. And when you listen tosomeone, it shows that you
genuinely are interested in themand that you're not just talking
at them or you're not just gonnaassume things about them, you're
seeking to understand, hey, helpme understand fill in the blank.
Mhmm. You know, tell me whatthat's like for you. Tell me
about your family or where yougrew up.
There's just a genuine interestand what that does is it grows
(08:22):
people's trust and they view youas, hey, you genuinely care
about me. And so there's a lotof ways that you can cultivate
listening and growing. I thinkthough that the big thing is
just to name the fact that weare in a listening deficit in
our, like, society. Yeah. Welisten to content and we listen
(08:44):
to, like, you know, contentcreators and influencers and
things like that.
But when it comes to justpeople, there's a whole lot of
talking and there's not anactual, like, embodied listening
with people, and it's reallypowerful.
Ben Loy (08:55):
Yeah. Do you have any examples of whether it's as a
(10:41):
pastor or at the salon, like,that really as you began to
practice it, like, really showedhow valuable it was?
John Crawford (10:48):
I think a huge one actually, is a great one
because this was where I I sawthe power of listening for
peacemaking and conflictresolution. Back in 2020,
obviously tensions wereheightened. The world was there
was a lot of uncertainty and alot of conflict, a lot of
division, a lot of polarizationand all of that. So it actually
(11:09):
happened within our our churchcommunity that, something was
said in a, in a communicationfrom one of our pastors. And
based on what was said, it was,addressing some of the current
political tension in 2020because everything was
heightened around race andjustice and COVID and masking
(11:33):
and vaccinations.
Like, everything was just likeIf
Ben Loy (11:36):
you if you wanted a reason to be upset, there was
one you could find for sure.
John Crawford (11:39):
Yeah. You know, like, people are gonna get
upset. And so he he did not makeany kind of statement or a
position, but he he addressedsomething pertaining to the
political division. And it hadto do with, race, like the race
injustice conversation. Well, aguy in our congregation got
(12:01):
really angry, really angry.
He was a member at our church, aleader, and he emailed me. I
wasn't the one that said it. Itwas one of our other leaders. He
emailed me and said, hey, Ican't believe that this was
said. I am so upset by this thatI'm leaving the church.
I'm no longer gonna be a memberhere, and I'm leaving. And I was
(12:24):
like, woah. Woah. Woah. Youknow, I've I've met with this
guy a lot, and and he was aleader, and so it was just like,
woah.
You know, I think there's amisunderstanding here. He had
explained what he thought heheard and so in my response to
him, I was like, hey, thanks somuch for emailing me. I'm so
sorry to hear this. Hey, can weget together? Would you meet
with me?
And he emailed back and heagreed to it. So we met. And it
(12:49):
was I knew going in, this guy'salready upset. So there's
already a degree of conflicthappening. And I don't really
know how he's gonna show up tothe meeting, if I'm gonna get
yelled at, you know, if he'sgonna fly off the handle or
what.
And so I just, you know, prayedand felt like the right thing to
do was I'm just gonna ask him alot of questions, and I'm just
gonna take the posture oflistening. And it was so
(13:12):
interesting. We met in personand we were socially distanced
because this is, like, peak ofthe pandemic, So we were
socially distanced. He's sitting20 feet away from me, you know?
But I remember just asking him aseries of questions and I didn't
seek to defend myself.
Was generally I was trying tounderstand, like, hey, what
about this was so upsetting?Like, help me understand linked
(13:35):
it back to, like, his story.Man, I will never forget. This
is another one of those where Iwas, like, convinced about the
power of listening. This guycame in just, like, visibly
angry, you know, tense, like,body posture, nonverbal
nonverbal communication.
It's like, this guy, like, wantsto throw down, you know? And he
was so upset and, man, I juststart asking just some questions
(13:58):
and he starts he starts talkingand it just, like, his posture
within five minutes, dude,changes. No longer crossed arms,
like, visibly relaxes. He startsleaning back because he was,
like, real rigid, you know? Andhis whole posture changed.
And we then end up meeting forabout an hour and a half, and I
(14:20):
just keep asking him questions.He starts telling me a story of
back when he was in college, andthis guy's an older guy. Back
when he was in college, well,the very thing that he was upset
about, a comment about thepolitical division. Well,
something had happened in hislife at college pertaining to
the topic of race and politics.I had no idea.
(14:44):
Just by listening to him and Ibecause I was asking him, was
like, hey. What what about thiswas so upsetting? It seems like
this is really upsetting. Andthen he starts to go into his
whole story and we're talking,like, thirty years ago. And so
then I just asked him, I said,hey.
Do you it sounds like this wasthis was, like, deeply impactful
in your life. Do you think,like, maybe this is connected to
(15:04):
why you're feeling so upset?And, man, he hadn't made that
connection. And in the meetingWow. He makes the connection.
And he's like, yeah. You wannaknow it? And so then I walked
back after I listened to him forabout an hour. I walked back and
said, hey. This is what wassaid.
Like, it seems like you thoughtyou heard this.
Ben Loy (15:22):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (15:23):
But, like, can we go back and, like, listen to it?
You know? And and then it waslike, oh, it was clearly not.
This guy ended up not onlychanging his whole posture, he
ended up apologizing. Wow.
And then he was so mad that heended up apologizing to the
leader who he was so upset whosaid this. Mhmm. And he ended up
(15:43):
apologizing to the leader, andhe stayed at the church. He
didn't leave the church. And youjust go, man, I like I didn't I
didn't argue him.
I didn't try to convince himotherwise. I just asked him a
bunch of questions, and then hemade this connection of, like,
thirty years ago, something thathappened in college that he had
deep pain and baggage for Yep.Was connected to this. And this
actually wasn't about what theleader at the church said, it
(16:05):
was actually about all of thisstuff in the past. Yeah.
And there was conflictresolution. Yeah. Like, it led
to high man, really hightension, and just listening was
a means of peacemaking. Yeah.And and so that that's like one
that I think of of like, man,was just so powerful because you
could visibly see him just likerelax.
(16:26):
Yeah. I was like, oh, I thought,you know, because I'm sure he
was thinking I was gonna go athim and like, hey, you're wrong,
you're right, you know. Yeah.Because that's what happened to
him in college.
Ben Loy (16:33):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (16:33):
And then you just go, no, I'm just like, man, I
care about you and I wanna hear,you know? Yeah. Just totally
changed.
Ben Loy (16:39):
How do you balance because I actually, I think the
church is a really interestingstudy on this because the pulpit
is a stage where it is it leansheavily on the assertive side.
Right? Pastor's not getting upand, like, asking questions from
the congregation in the moment.So, like, they're preaching,
they're proclaiming the word ofGod, they're being assertive in
in what they're saying. Yeah.
(17:01):
And then, like, balancing thatwith with the act of listening
and the practice of listening.Like, in this conversation, it
sounds like Yeah. You you did.You navigated both both
listening and assertiveness. Cancan you speak into that a little
bit?
John Crawford (17:17):
Dude, that's a great question. I think for me,
and different people who goabout this differently, for me,
I think what I have, what I havelearned to be most beneficial in
in my context is to lead withlistening. And then when there's
an opportunity to maybe beassertive or to say what needs
(17:40):
to be said, to do it. Mhmm. Butyou are coming once again, it's
the whole, people don't care howmuch you know till they know how
much you care.
Ben Loy (17:49):
Yep.
John Crawford (17:49):
And then if it's like, hey, you feel cared for. I
listened. I came in with agenuine posture. Not not an
agenda just to, like, bait andswitch you, but a genuine
posture of, like, hey, I careabout you.
Ben Loy (17:59):
Yeah.
John Crawford (18:00):
And you've got a story, and help me understand.
And then there usually is alwaysan opportunity to say what needs
to be said. Mhmm. But you'redoing it out of a out of a place
of being well informed ofinstead of just saying the thing
from listening, man, I feelempathy for this person. Like,
your story is not my story.
Ben Loy (18:21):
Yep.
John Crawford (18:22):
And I could actually see like, I don't I
don't see it how you see it, butI can understand how you got
there.
Ben Loy (18:28):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (18:29):
You know? And so I think for me, I have I have
learned to lead with listeningand ask a lot of questions to
then also help me betterformulate how I'm gonna
communicate something that mightneed to be communicated. Yeah.
Because there are. Like, you youcan't just always only listen to
people.
Right. You need to Yep. Youknow, especially in leadership.
You know, there's things thatneed to be said. People need to
(18:51):
be challenged.
You don't just accept everycrazy thing that's ever said.
It's like, oh, yeah. That'stotally fine. Like, sometimes
you need to correct people outof love
Ben Loy (18:59):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (18:59):
Or just say, hey, this is this is the thing that
needs to be said, and this isjust what you need to know, and
so that there is there is a, howyou navigate that, and I think
it would be different indifferent contexts Right. Of,
I'm a pastor, you know, and andit may be different in the
marketplace if you're leading acompany or something like that,
but I do feel like the thingthat isn't different is
(19:20):
listening is so powerful. Yeah.You know? And people will feel
loved by you and cared for byyou and known, and therefore
they are in a better posture andposition themselves to receive
whatever you have to say.
Sure.
Ben Loy (19:33):
I would argue in the marketplace, I'd see I'd say
it's more similar than it isdifferent, right, even from a
pastoral to the marketplace. Imean, regardless, like, you're a
leader, you're interacting withpeople, people with backgrounds,
histories, experience, traumas,stresses in their own lives. And
and, like, listening gives youthe ability to step into their
(19:54):
shoes, understand as much as youcan what's going on in the
background. So, yeah, I wouldsay there's there's more
similarities than there are
John Crawford (20:02):
Yeah. Differences. It makes sense. It
makes a lot of sense that therewould be. Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben Loy (20:06):
What would you say to someone who maybe maybe they
say, like, I wish I wassurrounded by more listeners or,
you know, maybe maybe they feellike they're always the one
that's listening and they feelmaybe, I don't know, burdened by
that.
John Crawford (20:19):
If you are a leader, you will necessarily
take on the greater burden. Butit's also important that you
have someone to listen to you,and so I think, you know, you've
gotta figure out who that is,close friends, people that care
for you, other leaders that youfeel relationally like you
(20:40):
trust. But in leadership, Ithink that's part of the burden
and the weight of leadership isyou should be listening to the
people you're leading more thanthey should be seeking you out
to listen to you. Now, honestly,when when you are giving a
directive, they have to listento you. Right?
You know? Because, like, you'retheir boss or whatever. But as
(21:00):
far as if you're wanting justsomeone to listen to you all the
time, you're probably not gonnaget that. Mhmm. But you need it
for your own sake as being ahealthy leader to be able to
process things.
Like, leadership is lonely Yeah.And it's hard, and so you need
healthy outlets. You know, forsome, they they find that in
therapy. For others, they findthat in, like, covenant
friendships where it's likepeople that really love you,
(21:20):
trust you. For others it is likeif you're a marketplace leader,
it's your pastors, things likethat, you need it though.
But I would just say that's partof the burden that you take on
of the weight of leadership issaying, yeah, that should be
actually a normal thing.
Ben Loy (21:38):
Dive in a little bit more on to how do you lead
(22:44):
through listening, where doesthat actually come into play?
John Crawford (22:48):
I think you could you could throw out, like, a lot
of scenarios. The biggest onewould be, you know, leading
through change is a reallyhelpful one Mhmm. Of being able
to listen to people and hearwhere they're at before making a
decision is really helpful. Orif a decision had already been
made because of the organizationstructure and the team that made
(23:11):
the decision, then it'slistening to people on how they
might have concerns about adecision and how it's going
affect them. So I think thatthat could be one.
A big one is we all know thatconflict is a part of
leadership. Conflict is not bad,but it's what you do conflict.
Can be really bad or it canactually strengthen a team and
(23:34):
relationship and it can be asource of growth. So listening
is actually a means of, and Ishared this with that story, but
resolving conflict. And there'sa lot of conflict on teams.
And so once again, I think it'swhen you listen, you are being
well informed instead ofbelieving the worst. And so I
think it also provides then teamcamaraderie and cohesion because
(23:58):
people feel known. And so Ithink there is a degree of how
it affects the team where whenpeople feel like, hey, Ben is a
really good listener. I know ifI have something going on in my
life, he's going listen to me. Ialso know that I'm not just like
a cog in the wheel, but heactually cares about me.
(24:19):
I have seen is listening is alsowhen it comes to efficiency, it
seems like listening is reallyinefficient. Yeah. It's
actually, I would argue, themost efficient way to lead is
with the ear because a lot ofinefficiencies is from unknown,
(24:39):
unmet expectations. And so bylistening, you actually save
yourself a lot of the downstreamwork. Yeah.
And so I actually think it'smore efficient as well.
Efficiency in organizations,right? Because sometimes in
church, like the church world,it can be different and it's
like, oh, yeah, of course,you're a pastor, you just listen
to people all the time. But whenit's, organizations and
(25:02):
efficiency, the more efficientthing in listening and what
oftentimes happens is you end upspending a lot of time on unmet
or misaligned expectations, alot of time on conflict, and it
ends up being really, reallyinefficient. And so if you just
(25:24):
do like the math, yeah, youknow, it might take you a couple
hours to listen to some people,but if you don't do that on the
front end, the downstream, youmight have twenty, thirty, forty
hours of conflicts of whateverit may be that you're trying to
sort out, and then I just thinkit's good for overall,
retention.
Yeah. Like, people wanna workfor a leader that they feel like
(25:47):
actually is interested in theirlife, that has actually sought
to understand them and theirstory and what they care about
and what their hopes are andwhat their dreams are and what
their fears are, you know, allof that. It's like, man, if this
is, like, innate in every humanbeing, like, we long to be known
Ben Loy (26:03):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (26:04):
And you work for a leader or an organization
where, like, that's present,that's that's invaluable. You
know? And so I also think it's,like, you know, it's a retention
thing too. And so I thinkthere's a lot of ways that it
that it plays out. Yeah.
You know, those are some off thetop of my head. Yeah. Obviously
in like more counseling andcare, you know, that that's a
(26:25):
more natural one. That's why Ididn't go there. But these are
some where I would say in teamsand organizations, like where
it, I think is reallybeneficial.
Ben Loy (26:32):
Yeah. I really like that you touched on efficiency
because I think oftentimes,especially from a leadership
perspective, the nature is tolike put your head down and just
push through and be having thewherewithal to stop, like lift
your head up and ask questionsto the people around you about
where they're at. Like what aretheir hopes? What are their
fears? Yeah.
(26:53):
How do they see themselvesfitting into the organization or
the plan or project or agendathat you have? Yeah, you'd
probably save yourself a lot ofheartache. Yeah. How would you
define effective listening?
John Crawford (27:06):
One of the things that I would say is you've got,
the difference between hearingand listening. So hearing is
something that simply justhappens. It's one of your five
senses, right? Like, we arehearing each other right now or
you're hearing a plane outside,but, listening is something
different. Like, both of themuse your ears, but listening is
(27:28):
where you make the choice to tryto actively understand what
you've heard.
And so what I would sayeffective listening, if I were
to define it, is where you areanother way is I would just say
it's actively listening. Right?And there's ways that you can
actively listening activelylisten to people. But I would
say effective listening is whereyou are actively engaged and you
(27:49):
are dialed into the person. Youare not just hearing them where
it goes.
You know, we've all had that,you know, like, yeah, I totally
heard my teacher give thehomework, but I did not listen
and I don't know how to do itnow, you know? Yep. And we all
know that, that feeling whereit's like, I totally heard, but
I didn't listen. But I'm, like,not just hearing you, I'm
listening with the intent to tryto understand. And so when I
(28:12):
would say effective listening isis that it's interpersonally and
it's organizationally.
I don't think it's just alwaysone on one, but I think it's
where you actively trying tounderstand the people you're
leading or even your customers.Right? There that there's a
listening to now, did I justwanna, like, hear some feedback
from our clients or did I reallywant to actively listen to say
(28:34):
like, hey, I wanna understandthis because we actually may
wanna, like, implement somestuff. Effective listening, one
of the things that I always sayis, a good listening or
effective listening to yourquestion always starts with the
question of how can I make thisconversation about the other
person? And so if you are goingas a leader like, hey, this
(28:57):
conversation isn't about me, buthow can I make this conversation
about you, Ben?
And so I am showing up with theintent to listen and to try to
understand. And that's not withan agenda attached to it, but
it's really just to say, hey,I'm not gonna make this
conversation about me. It'sactually about you and so I know
(29:17):
going into it that I'm going todo more listening than speaking.
Yeah. And so I think thateffective listening is is just
that.
Servant leadership. Servantleadership. Yeah. Yeah. In
which, honestly, if you look atwho is the the pinnacle of
servant leadership thateverybody looks at is Jesus.
Mhmm. Right? Like, that's whereservant leadership comes from is
(29:40):
his ministry. And Jesus asksover 300 questions in the
gospels. And it's like, well,depending on who you believe
Jesus is, you and I areChristians, and so we believe
he's God.
And if Jesus is God, well, healready knows the answer. So why
is he asking all thesequestions? Well, he's doing it
(30:03):
out of a means of loving andcaring for the people on the
other side, that he's givingthem the opportunity to be
heard, to be known, to be loved.He doesn't need to ask them. He
he already knows, you know, andthere's examples of that in the
gospels where Jesus alreadyknows their story.
He know he knows your namebefore, you know, all of that,
and yet he's doing somethingbecause listening is a means of
(30:25):
love. And so I think, yeah, it'sservant leadership. You know,
like, this is this is an innatedesire that every single person
has. And so when you go, hey,I'm not gonna make this
conversation about me, you'reserving people. And you're
leading out of out of a heart ofa servant to care for the people
you're leading.
Ben Loy (30:41):
What would you say is the biggest, blocker for people
in in, like, listening well?
John Crawford (30:48):
One is we get distracted really easily. I
think a part of activelylistening and effective is to
not be looking at your phone or,you know, you get a text and
looking at every single textmessage. Yeah. And so one of the
practices that that, I learnedfrom someone was either put your
phone away where it's not inview or you flip it over. If
(31:12):
it's gotta be out, you know,emergency type thing, like flip
it over so your screen you'renot always getting the
notifications, But you it's hardto be actively engaged and
listening if you're checkingtext messages.
Somebody's talking to you andyou're looking down at your
phone, you know, looking attexts or responding to a text.
Clearly, you're not activelylistening to the person and
texting someone, you know? So Ithink that that's like a really
(31:33):
practical one. Another thingthat makes it hard besides,
distraction is a lot of timespeople don't know how to ask
good questions. The worst kindof question you can ask someone
is a why question.
So you may wonder why, right?The the reason for that is when
(31:56):
you ask someone a why question,it immediately puts them on the
defensive. So a lot of times,people don't really know how to
ask good open ended questions.So it's just like, hey, did you
like that? It's like, well,that's a closed ended question.
Ben Loy (32:09):
It's a
John Crawford (32:10):
yes or no. Yep. But how do you have good
questions and how do you notjust go, well, why do you think
that way? You know, if you tellme that the tacos that we're
gonna eat later are the besttacos, and I'm like a taco
skeptic, and I'm like, well,well, why? Why would you say
that?
You know, like, I think thisplace has the best tacos. You're
automatically gonna go on thedefensive. Mhmm. And you're
(32:30):
gonna have to try to, like,prove your case of, like, these
tacos are the best. Mhmm.
But if I just say, like, hey,what makes what makes you think
that they're the best tacos?Yeah. Well, you're like, man,
dude, it's, like, the salsa, youknow, and you just start to then
explain it instead of like, oh,I gotta defend myself. Yeah. Or,
hey, how many how many othertaco places have you been to in
the city?
You know? And it's like, oh,well, two. Okay. So it's like
(32:53):
the best of two. But if you'relike, dude, I'm a taco
connoisseur and I've been to 300taco spots, This is the best out
of 300.
Well, it's different than justlike the why. Right. That's a
trivial example, but if youstart to go in like an
organizational setting wherethere's like some complexities
and maybe high emotion and youenter in with the why question
(33:16):
of, like, well, why do you feelthat? Why why are you offended?
Mhmm.
You know, it's just like, dude,people you get the worst of
people. Yeah. Because they feellike, oh, something's wrong with
me Yep. And now I gotta defendmyself.
Ben Loy (33:26):
Yeah.
John Crawford (33:26):
So I would say asking good questions is hard. A
lot of times, people don't knowwhat good questions are. They
resort to, and we all do it, isa why question, but that's not
actually a great question. It'ssomething that I always love to
do is, I have two or three, whatI would say is, like, really
good questions that I alwayshave in, like, my back pocket
(33:47):
or, like, up my sleeve. Theseare, my go tos.
So, you know, sometimes people,they're just gonna Mhmm. But if
you're wondering, like, man, howcan I really get maybe some
depth and to get a deeperunderstanding? So, I'll give you
two of mine. So you you can takethese if you want. So one of my
favorites is tell me about atime in your life when, fill in
(34:08):
the blank.
Now you can go, like, fun withit, but you can go go deep.
Yeah. You know? Tell me about atime in your life when you felt
seen by your dad. It's like,dude, you're gonna get into some
deep stuff.
Mhmm. All of a sudden, yourealize, like, oh, this person
didn't have a dad. Yep. Youknow? Or, hey, like, tell me
about a time in your life thatyou went to a theme park and
(34:29):
you, like, loved a ride.
You know? Like, you can gohowever, but, like, just tell me
about a time in your life when,and you can fill in the blank
for whatever you're curiousabout.
Ben Loy (34:38):
Sure.
John Crawford (34:38):
Dude, that one is like gold. It's so good. Yeah.
That question, and then this ismy favorite question to ask is,
what has that been like for you?And that question seeks to
generally understand someoneelse's story and lived
experience, and that will thatwill make someone feel like,
(35:00):
man, you're really trying tounderstand like, hey, I don't
know what it was like to I'mborn and raised in Arizona.
Like, I don't know what it waslike to live in Canada. Like
Mhmm. Tell me what that was likefor you to, like or, hey, you
have dual citizenship. Tell mewhat that was like. Or you go
really deep into it or,
Ben Loy (35:16):
like Yeah.
John Crawford (35:16):
Hey, somebody, you know, they're talking about
a previous employer experienceand and something gnarly
happened. And it's like, hey,tell me what it was like for you
when that happened to you atyour last Mhmm. You know? And so
that that is those two questionsare really helpful. Yeah.
There's other ones too, butthose are like two of my
favorites.
Ben Loy (35:34):
No. That's good. That second one's like the ultimate
open ended question because it'sit is 100% through their eyes
and their lived experience andtheir emotions and Yep. I mean,
you will I would imagine youwill never ever ever get the
same answer to that questionfrom different people or maybe
even from the same persondepending on what you're
(35:55):
touching on.
John Crawford (35:56):
Yeah. You you probably won't. And what you
probably will get are, a lot oftears a lot of times. And that
that's one of my one one of thereasons why I love that question
so much is it connects so deeplyemotionally with people. The
number of people who have criedwhen I've asked them that
question, men and women.
Yeah. They're just like break.Because once again, you can
(36:16):
apply that to anything. Yeah.It's like, hey, tell me what it
was like when a really hardthing.
Like, of your, one of yourcoworkers, man, their their
brother was killed. Yeah. It'slike, man, tell me what that was
like for you when you're goingthrough that, you know, after
your brother died, you know, andit's like, dude, you're gonna
get tears, you know, or whateverit is. Do you
Ben Loy (36:35):
have any other, like, maybe someone wants to formulate
their own questions or any otherpractical, like, tools people
can use if they wanna if theywanna start listening better?
John Crawford (36:46):
One is to to write, like, two to three open
ended good questions. Like andif you if you wanna take those
ones and, use them, use them.But if you wanna modify them to
give you some kind of, like,question template, have two to
three go to questions. And thereason why I recommend that is
sometimes it's hard to think ofreally good questions. Like, oh,
(37:07):
I got a book of, like, 50questions.
That's hard, but if you havesome open ended ones like this
that you can apply to anyconversation or situation, those
will just work. Then you don'thave to overly think about it.
The other one is, if you want topractically grow as a listener,
(37:30):
spend time around a really goodlistener. I've said this before
and even on another podcastepisode, but it's just true. Is
if you are trying to learn, thebest way to learn some of this
stuff isn't to be taught it,it's to see it modeled in real
life and to experience it.
When you have been on thereceiving end of someone asking
(37:50):
you really good questions andlistening to you, you're like,
man, I wanna learn from thatperson. And more things are
caught than taught. And so Icould teach you how to grow as a
listener, but when you spendtime around a really good
listener, it'll rub off on you,and you see it actually made
visible. It's not just someconcept in a book or on a
podcast, but, like, man, that'samazing, you know? Mhmm.
(38:10):
And so I would say try to try tospend time around someone that's
a really good listener and seewhat they do, you know, because
they'll probably do some stuffmaybe similar to what I'm
saying, but they'll might dosome stuff different that might
actually be even better and morehelpful. I have it as a goal,
like a practice of when I wasreally trying to grow in
listening of the eighty twentyrule. So what I do, and what I
(38:34):
what I did several years ago isto go into conversations to say,
hey, I am going to listen 80% ofthe time and only speak 20% of
the time. And that 20% willprobably be when I'm asked.
Like, hey, what do you thinkabout that?
Or what about you? Then I'llspeak. I'm not going to refrain
and be silent, but to say, hey,80% of this meeting that I'm
(38:57):
about to have, I want it to bethe other person talking. That's
a really helpful just to make ita discipline to think about it,
and it doesn't have to beeightytwenty, but percentage to
say, Hey, the goal of thismeeting, if I'm meeting with
this person for two hours, youdo the math of 80% of that time.
You should be asking questionsand seeking to understand and
(39:19):
then you'll speak.
So those are some that have justbeen, like, helpful for me. I
think the big one is just havingsome good questions to ask,
having the the posture ofactively listening, not being on
your phone Mhmm. Not beingdistracted, but to say, hey, I'm
present with you. Then I thinkit's just helpful if you see it
modeled so that you are able tosay, oh, there's different ways
(39:41):
that you can do this, especiallyin different contexts. So those
would some of the ones that Ithink have been helpful for me
that I think have helped otherpeople as well.
Sure.
Ben Loy (39:50):
What would you say to someone who maybe maybe they're
in the marketplace, you know,they they have a job, their
relationships at work feel moretransactional and maybe hurried.
Like, how how could someonebecause you're you're obviously
not gonna just step intosomeone's office and go, like,
tell me tell me your deepest,darkest secrets or, like, how
are yeah. Like, how are you howdo you bridge that gap and maybe
(40:13):
maybe start to take stepsrelationally with people around
you who you haven't even evenventured into this area with?
John Crawford (40:20):
Dude, that's a great question. Obviously,
depends on, like, theorganization and the structure
of size and and teams and allthat, but I would say start with
whoever you are closest to inthe organization. So if it's, if
it's a peer, start there. Youknow, start with a peer. Maybe
it's not someone that's a directreport, but maybe it's your
peer, start there.
And maybe maybe it's been kindof a transactional, like you and
(40:42):
I are peers and it's kind ofbeen transactional, but say,
hey, we're peers. I'd love tolike, man, can we grab lunch
sometime? I'd love to just getto know you more because and I
would even name it like, hey,sometimes I feel like this peer
to peer is kind oftransactional, like, it'd be
cool. We're rubbing shoulders.We're, you know, we're working
towards the same goal.
Like, let's connect. I wouldstart there. Think, just like
(41:05):
everything, if you're trying togrow as a listener, I would
start somewhere and grow. Don'tbe like, Hey, I'm going to
listen to every single employee.That's also maybe just
impractical for theorganization.
And even for me, like, as apastor of the size of the
church, I don't meet with everysingle person in the church. You
know, the hope is that everybodyon our staff is connecting with,
you know, people in the church,but it's just there's too many
(41:27):
people in the church for justme. And honestly, even on our
staff, you know? Like, staff isso big that we have to have,
obviously, different people whoare listening to their direct
reports on staff. And so I wouldsay start somewhere small.
Start maybe with a peer, startwith somebody that maybe you're
most comfortable with because itcan be a little intimidating,
especially if this changes likethe MO for how you navigate. And
(41:51):
then I think you'll see thefruit of it. Mhmm. I have never
talked to someone that beganpracticing listening that said
it was unfruitful or a waste.Everybody sees the benefit in
it.
It can be awkward at first,especially if it's like, oh,
this is new, you know, but,people see the fruit of it
because it just it's how humansare wired.
Ben Loy (42:11):
Yeah.
John Crawford (42:11):
And so people will respond in a different way,
and they will receive yourleadership in a different way.
Mhmm. So I'd start somewheresmall.
Ben Loy (42:20):
Yeah. What would you say are the the biggest primary
benefits of listening well,whether that's from a leadership
perspective or just relationallyone on one.
John Crawford (42:29):
A big benefit is that you will better understand
the people that you're leading.Like, that's just like, from,
like, baseline Mhmm. The thebiggest benefit is you will
begin to not assume the worstand believe the worst about
people and we're all prone to dothat, but that's when we're
given the least amount ofinformation and we make
(42:49):
assumptions about people. And sofor you as a leader, you will be
able to enter in to someone'slife in a different way and
you'll see their even if youdon't agree with it, you'll see
how they're getting to wherethey're getting. And there's a
power in proximity.
Mhmm. And proximity breedsempathy And that's where, you
know, talking about, like,feeling for someone of, dang,
(43:12):
that's your story. I had noidea. I didn't know that
happened to you. Proximitybreeds empathy, but distance
breeds suspicion.
Mhmm. And when you don't haveand you don't even have like, we
could still be like this acrossthe table on a team, but still
have distance. Like, I don'tknow you. You don't know me. We
don't you know?
And what that does is it breedssuspicion. And so some of what
this really does is it actuallymakes a team much closer and
(43:35):
more cohesive, and that'ssomewhere where the retention
comes in, is that you canactually create a culture in
your organization or your placeof employment through listening,
a culture of listening. And it'shonestly, the the way that it's
felt is a humble leadershipculture. It's like, hey, the
leaders are actually seeking tohear from me. They're not just
coming in heavy handed, tellingme what I need to do or telling
(43:58):
me what I don't know or tellingme this, but they actually care
about me and it's going to bereceived as humility.
I think that's a big benefit.Think you have another one
outside of the conflictresolution stuff. I think that's
a huge benefit where I've seenit play out the most from my own
vantage point experience. Thebiggest benefit is the conflict
(44:20):
resolution. So much conflict isfrom unmet expectations or
misaligned expectations and it'sjust a lack of listening and
communicating.
People just misunderstand eachother, you know? And so I think
that that's a huge benefit. Onethat I one that we haven't hit
though is in most businesses,and I know even in the church,
(44:41):
we want to develop leaders. Wewant more leaders. We want the
next generation of leaders.
We want more, you know, like,more teams, you know, people who
have an ownership mentality forwhat we're doing. And, man, when
you seek to listen andunderstand people, it actually
can provide a pool of potentialfuture leaders. And so it's just
(45:05):
a great way to actually get toknow the people that you're
working with and are workingunder you. And so I think the
retention is a benefit of that.But the leadership development
piece is huge.
To say, man, I've beenconnecting with Ben and this guy
is great. He's a leader. We'veto figure out some environments
or pathways for him, what mightthat look like? But that only
(45:27):
happens by doing this.
Ben Loy (45:29):
Yeah. You know? That makes me think of, like, any
mentorship type relationshipsI've ever had. And it's
hilarious because you you go toa mentor and you think, oh,
they're just gonna, like, pourinto me and give me all this
information. Most of the time,like, 90% of a mentor
relationship is, like, me askingthem a bunch of or them asking
me a bunch of questions and mejust, like, word vomiting and
(45:52):
sharing about my life and thenand then to kind of put, like,
you know, there is some guidanceand things involved in that.
But it it it often is more themasking questions than anything
else and and then that creatingclarity and guidance for, like,
the way that I wanna grow, theway I wanna develop as a leader.
Yeah. It kinda flips theexpectation on its head.
John Crawford (46:11):
Dude, the, I love that I love what you just said
about mentors because typically,a mentor is viewed as someone
that's wise. Mhmm. And I havenever met a wise person that
wasn't a really good listener.Mhmm. Like, it's almost
synonymous.
Yep. You know, like, there'ssomething about wisdom of, like,
hey, I wanna listen. And even,like, in scripture, in the
(46:33):
Bible, something that has beenreally helpful for me is in
James one, I think it's 19through 21. But be quick to
listen, slow to speak, and slowto become angry because the
anger of man doesn't produce therighteousness of God. To
translate that into just nonbiblical languages, hey, don't
(46:53):
be quick to speak because itactually leads to anger.
And when you're quick to anger,it's the worst of you is gonna
come out. Be quick to listeninstead. Mhmm. And that's why I
think so many wise people embodythis. Like, in in James, it's
wisdom literature and it'sshowing you this is how wise
people live is be quick tolisten.
Mhmm. But so often, like, evenin my own life, I used to talk
(47:17):
all the time. Talk over people.Like, my meetings were always,
like, I'm telling everybody andI'm dominating. And yet, also,
like, when you're quick tospeak, you're also gonna be
quick to become angry.
Mhmm. And that's not gonnaproduce good things. Yeah. It's
gonna create chaos and conflictand all of that. But listening
is actually a really, reallypowerful means of embodying
(47:41):
wisdom in people's lives.
Yeah. How do listening andcontrol, interact? Dude, that's
a great question, man. Listeningand control, when you listen,
you are actually not seeking tobe in control. You actually give
someone else the feeling ofbeing in control based on you're
(48:06):
asking them to answer yourquestions and and genuine
curiosity.
And so I think you are giving upcontrol in that, which is why I
think it's you're servingsomeone. But I think the fruit
of it, the benefit of being alistening leader or just
listening in life is you don'thave to force control. You don't
(48:28):
have to try to take control.Because people feel loved and
cared for by you, they want tosubmit to your leadership and
follow you, and so it leads youto being able to actually lead.
Ben Loy (48:39):
Mhmm.
John Crawford (48:40):
And I don't think you have to grasp for control or
try to dominate and implementlike I'm going to control
because people respect you. AndI think that when leaders aren't
respected a lot of times, theyoftentimes have to make the case
for this is why you need tofollow me and, you know
Ben Loy (48:56):
Yep.
John Crawford (48:56):
And so I think it it it's actually, like, the
byproduct of this is you don'thave have to, like, fight for it
or vie for it or force it. Yeah.That's what I say
Ben Loy (49:03):
off the off the cuff. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, it just speaks back intothat that idea of servant
leadership. Like Totally.Relational investment. Right?
Building trust within both thepeople that that follow you and
and peer to peer as well.
Right?
John Crawford (49:17):
Yeah. I think the going back to the beginning is,
like, on the epidemic ofloneliness, there's even now,
like I would make the case,there's now more of a need for
it Mhmm. Than in 2019. So if youjust play out what happened with
COVID, social distance,isolation, everything post COVID
(49:41):
Virtual work.
Ben Loy (49:42):
Yeah. Yeah.
John Crawford (49:43):
Yep. Virtual work, more and more digitization
of now we're in the age of AIand now people are actually
forming relationships with bots.People are talking to bots. Then
there's all kinds of differentbots, not just romantic ones but
there's therapeutic bots. Youcan have a chatbot for your
therapy.
And, like, all of all this isjust showing us people are,
(50:05):
like, craving this, and peoplethat we work with are craving
it. And I even had aconversation with a guy, and and
he's not like a a strange guy. Iwas actually pretty I was pretty
surprised to hear him say it,you know, because he's not a
socially awkward guy or anythinglike that, but he said that he's
realized that the person he hasnow started to talk with the
most is ChatGPT. Like, he'sformed, like, a dialogue, like,
(50:27):
relationship with ChatGPT. Mhmm.
And you just go, man, like,people are longing to be
listened to. And if we were inan epidemic of loneliness in
2019 before COVID, beforeOpenAI, you know, before all of
the things, and you just see,like, we are still in a mental
health epidemic. The use andneed of therapists is greater
(50:53):
now than ever has been. Mhmm. SoAnd this isn't even among old
people or our age.
This is the next generation aswell. This is Gen Z and even
younger than Gen Z that arelike, man, people are lonely. I
think that that's just somethingto be said because I didn't
close the loop on that. Like,this wasn't just a 2019 problem.
Yeah.
But it's actually gotten worse.Yep. You know? And so, I think
(51:16):
that that a lot of people thatwe are whether we're leading
them, whether we're working withthem, whether they're our
clients, you know, like myclients at the salon is people
are, like, longing for this butfeel like I mean, you can't be
really listened to on socialmedia or online, you know, and
so, yeah, there's just I thinkthere's a huge opportunity to
lead in listening. Mhmm.
Ben Loy (51:38):
Well, and I think, like, our, like, relationships
have become increasingly moretransactional
John Crawford (51:43):
Yeah.
Ben Loy (51:43):
As, you know, yeah, we've moved into the digital age
and and technology andefficiencies. And so, like, what
I've even caught myself doing isis, like, there there are
moments where, maybe I needadvice in a certain area or I
need connections or whatever itis. Right? Just, like, trying to
understand or grasp a specifictopic. It could be finances, it
(52:05):
could be working on my car, Andin in a previous day and age,
you would reach out tocommunity, you'd reach out to
friends.
Yeah. You you might reach out toeven professional. So it is a
transactional relationship, butit's still a transactional
relationship with a human being.
John Crawford (52:20):
Yep.
Ben Loy (52:20):
And as this continues to grow and become more and more
part of our society, it willcontinue to be more and more
transactional. And Totally. I Imean, I'm interested to see
because I I think, yeah, thatloneliness culturally is really
gonna increase. Yep. And alsowith that, like, the need for
deep relationships Yeah.
Is also gonna increase. And Iyeah. I mean, listening just it
(52:43):
just seems like such a powerfulway to to break the ice on that.
John Crawford (52:46):
Yeah, man. I I agree. I agree.
Ben Loy (52:49):
Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to say on
this subject that you haven'tgotten to?
John Crawford (52:53):
No. I I think, like, the the motivation even
for me is, obviously, I'm apastor and and a Christian, but
I think that this is not justall of the need that we're
naming of, like, our societalmoment and our cultural moment,
but for me, this is God'sposture towards us. Mhmm. And so
in Psalm one sixteen, it saysthat God bends down and inclines
(53:18):
his ear or he bends down and helistens. He inclines his ear to
us and he listens to us.
And so I think just a huge thingis like, hey, this is not just
within our culture and themoment we're in. This is a human
desire and this is actually howGod acts towards us Mhmm. Is
that he bends down and listens.Mhmm. And so we have a really
(53:38):
powerful opportunity to embodythe listening presence of God to
others.
And so, that's part of reasonwhy I believe it's so so
powerful in people's lives.
Ben Loy (53:49):
In closing, if there was one step that someone could
take, to start to develop thisskill, whether it's a resource,
you know, a place to go, anaction they can take, what
John Crawford (54:01):
would you
Ben Loy (54:01):
say is is a good first step?
John Crawford (54:03):
I would say the best thing is to examine
yourself to see if you have agenuine desire Mhmm. To grow in
listening because you have towant it. If you don't want to
grow as a listener, you neverwill. So I I would say step one
is, do you want to actuallybecome a better listener? And if
you do, then I would say thenext step is come up with those,
(54:26):
like, two to three goodquestions that you can start to
ask people and and see thebenefit because you it'll all
be, like, ethereal andconceptual until you actually do
it and see, like, oh, this waslike this was powerful.
And then I think you'll beconvinced of it. And then, you
know, there's a lot of otherresources. So that's what I
would say. Yeah. It's like yougotta want it.
(54:46):
If so, come up with, like, two,three good questions. Use the
ones that I that I gave even ifyou don't know how to format
formulate those, and start,like, choose a person and say,
yeah, I want to try to get toknow them better, listen,
understand them, all of that.
Ben Loy (55:00):
Yeah, John, I really appreciate this conversation. I
know that, I mean, this is anarea that you're passionate
about, you've developed, youknow, you're a practitioner of.
And I know I even have, like,personally benefited from from
you developing this and just ourinteractions in the way that you
lead. So this was great. Thankyou.
John Crawford (55:16):
Yeah, man. Thanks, dude. It fun. Yep. Hey,
y'all.
Thanks so much for watching. Ifyou want more content like this,
we've got some killer stuffplanned. So make sure you rate,
review and subscribe. Let's go.Let's go.
Let's go.
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