October 28, 2025 • 57 mins
If healthy growth is about going further than you’ve ever gone before, then it’s natural to experience some feelings of imposter syndrome along the way. But there are healthy and unhealthy ways to respond to these emotions when you notice them cropping up in your life. In this episode, Alex and Ben discuss their own experiences of imposter syndrome, along with some common situations they’ve witnessed with other leaders. They explain why imposter syndrome is ultimately about having an incorrect view of yourself and share some spiritual truths and practical actions you can take to recenter your identity and keep moving forward.
Information isn’t the gap between failure and success—action is. Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching helps you create a plan and execute on what matters most for your business. Apply today at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Episode Recap:
- What is imposter syndrome?
- Where has imposter syndrome shown up in your own life?
- The root of imposter syndrome is pride
- Are you seeing yourself with a growth mindset or a fixed mindset?
- If you’re not living in alignment with your identity, you’ll inevitably experience instability
- How does healthy growth differ from operating out of imposter syndrome?
- Spiritual truths for fighting imposter syndrome
- David could fight Goliath because his confidence was found in God, not his own abilities
- How to shift your mindset around imposter syndrome
- Who is God? Who am I? And who are others?
- Practical actions for combating imposter syndrome
If you’re ready to move beyond just gathering information and start executing on what truly matters, Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching can help. Apply now at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.
Resources:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Judd (00:02):
Okay. This is gonna be a fun one. I think it's gonna
be an interesting one. Let'slet's start off with, like, some
fundamental basic questions justso that we can get everyone on
the same page about what we'retalking about. So let's start
with a functional definition.
What is impostor syndrome? Yeah.Tell me what you kinda learned
and what you thought about asyou kinda look at that question.
Ben Loy (00:22):
So I guess the term impostor syndrome, when I when I
did a little bit of research,first came up in the nineteen
seventies. A psychologist namedPauline Rose Clance just coined
the term. Classic Pauline.
Alex Judd (00:35):
Yeah. Exactly. Classic Pauline.
Ben Loy (00:38):
But, I mean, the gist of it is basically feeling,
like, underqualified or, like animpostor or fraud, in a whatever
position or role that you're in.Yeah.
Alex Judd (00:49):
That's what I found too. And I actually, found like
a synonym for it is fraudsyndrome, which personally for
me, I actually, for whateverreason, that communicates more
about what it actually is to me.And and, you know, as I was kind
of reading about it, researchingit, thinking about my own
experience with it, it's likewhat are the feelings and
patterns associated withimpostor syndrome? It's this
(01:11):
idea that, like, man, mysetbacks, mistakes, or failures
are always because of me, but mysuccesses never are. Right?
It's like nothing I experiencethat's good ever has anything of
me in it. Right? It's alwaysluck. And then really just maybe
that's, like, a pervading senseof, like, I'm a fraud, and I'm
going to be found out. Like,this this entire thing that I'm
(01:34):
building, regardless of whatthat thing is, your life, your
business, your marriage,whatever, is a house of cards
and it's going to come fallingdown eventually.
Anything else you'd add just forpeople to understand, like, what
we're talking about and whatimpostor syndrome is?
Ben Loy (01:48):
Yeah. I mean, I think I created my own definition for
impostor syndrome, but it pointsmore qualified to do that?
Alex Judd (01:56):
Probably not. Yeah. You know, we're gonna Well,
that's a very impostor syndromequestion. Ask if you're
qualified. Yeah.
Okay. What you got?
Ben Loy (02:03):
So I said, I said impostor syndrome is an
integrity deficiency and notnecessarily integrity of of
character, but, if integrity isbeing, at its most basic
definition, wholeness, theimpostor syndrome would be,
like, the facts of your life notlining up with how you
internally feel.
Alex Judd (02:20):
Yeah. Man, I think you're already alluding to some
of what we're gonna get into inthis episode. I I also think,
it's helpful to mention that, atleast from what I found, as of
2019, impostor syndrome was nota recognized psychiatric
disorder, and, I couldn't findanything that suggests that
(02:42):
since 2019 it has become arecognized psychiatric disorder.
And so, that's not to say itshouldn't be talked about and
shouldn't be discussed. Iactually think it should be
discussed because everythingthat I saw in terms of data has
suggested that the use of thisterm and phrase has skyrocketed,
particularly over the course ofthe past ten years.
Like, literally, one of thearticles I read said, like, use
(03:02):
of the term impostor syndromehas exploded in the last ten
years. And and so whether it's,you know, been scientifically
studied to the degree that theAmerican Psychiatric Association
has declared it an actual thing,data's still out on that. But it
is something that anecdotally,kind of the zeitgeist is
recognizing it as like, this issomething that people
(03:24):
experience, and so thereforewe're gonna keep talking about
it. But I also think it's whyit's as believers, as people
that wanna lead with wisdom, aspeople that wanna influence
other people in a positive andhealthy way. It's why it's
something that's good to maybebe spending some time talking
about and being reallyintentional about how we think
about it because the jury'sstill out on how we respond to
(03:46):
this thing, what this thingactually is, and I think there
are unhealthy and healthy waysto respond to it.
So with that, let's go to thesecond, kind of big fundamental
question. Let's start with justpersonal experience. Give us
some examples. Like, where haveyou seen this play out for
yourself?
Ben Loy (04:02):
It's a good question. I think well, I brought this up as
a podcast conversation because Ithink there are multiple areas
where I I have felt impostorsyndrome. Mhmm. One of the
really clear ones, I think, thatwas interesting to navigate
through was when I was in theCoast Guard. And, you know, you
spend I spent two years trainingfor rescue swimmer school, and,
(04:26):
then you go to rescue swimmerschool.
It's it's six months long. Butwhen you graduate, when you
finally make it through, you'renot a rescue swimmer yet. You
have to get qualified before youactually earn your wings. And so
there's this, like, justconstant impending sort of I'm
not quite there, I'm not quitethere, I'm not quite there. And
then one day you wake up and,you know, you get qualified,
(04:47):
you, you get to your unit, yougo through all the flights, the
syllabus, you get your EMT cert.
And I just remember on thebackside of it being like, okay,
I I guess I've made it, like,I'm here. And then, you know,
you have you have your first, Ihad my first case, and just
after the fact just reflectingon it and being like, did that,
like, really just happen? Like,I just I just pulled a dude out
(05:09):
of the woods, like, am Iqualified to do that? Like Yeah.
I guess on paper, yes.
And like but just feeling alittle bit, like, when when when
the reality of of you being thesole person going down to help
someone in in a situation likethat, actually hit me. I was
like, oh, wow. Yeah. Like, I'm Ihad this goal and then I I have
(05:33):
arrived and I don't necessarilyI I know I'm equipped to do
this, but something internallywith me felt a little bit off.
Like, it felt like I was like,oh, this yeah.
I do I belong here?
Alex Judd (05:46):
You know? Yeah. And I think that that really
highlights the dissonance thatoccurs because my guess is you
would have looked at anyone elsethat had walked through the
process that you had walkedthrough to become a member of
the Coast Guard to be able to goon missions like that. And if
you knew the process they walkedthrough, if you knew the the
(06:06):
intentionality, diligence, hardwork that they applied to go
through all that, and you knewthat they were certified and I
asked you objectively, Ben, arethey qualified to be able to do
this? Well, what would youranswer have been?
Yes. Yeah.
Ben Loy (06:17):
And I worked with, like, 13 of them. Right?
Alex Judd (06:18):
And, like, no doubt they are qualified. Yep. But me
myself, like, if there'ssomething like, I don't know if
I'm qualified Yep. Yeah. Okay.
So I had three areas, that I Ithink I I've really experienced
this, particularly in the lastfive years. It would be impostor
syndrome as it relates tosuccess, impostor syndrome as it
(06:40):
relates to freedom, and impostorsyndrome as it relates to
teaching or communicating. Andso success, the story that came
to mind, which I don't know ifI've shared this in the podcast
before. So, left my full timejob to start the business.
Business was going well.
Probably about eight months in,I was going to Nashville, and I
was like, man, it seemed likethe exit went really well. Like,
(07:03):
they were so supportive. I wasjust like, I wonder if Dave
would be willing to sit down.And just like, I I have a lot of
questions now that I didn't evenknow to ask eight months ago
about running a business that II mean, if I have a connection
to Dave Ramsey, who's, like,probably one of the most
prolific teachers on businessand leadership right now, like
why wouldn't I send the email?So I sent him an email and I
(07:23):
remember clicking Sam beinglike, will he answer this?
And immediately response cameback and he said, Alex, like,
would love to sit down with you.Why don't we do it at the
office? Let me know if there'sany other leaders in the
organization you would like tobe there and, like, looking
forward to it. Wow. So sogracious.
So awesome. And so I I got tothe office and literally, like,
(07:44):
bourbon wine charcuterie board.Like, it was, like, this is
insane. Like, just unbelievably,like, abundance minded,
gracious, all of that. And so wehad a great conversation.
How this ties into this topicis, you know, eventually he
asked me, like, give me anupdate on how the business is
going and kinda like what thingsare looking like. And I said, I
think things are going well. Isaid, we've we've made it past,
(08:05):
a six month, like, kindabenchmark with a lot of our
first customers. And, I said,like, we kind of whenever they
signed up, they signed up for aninitial six months. It was like
they were opting in for a sixmonth process to ensure growth
of their business and theirpersonal life and all of that.
And I said, just passed that,and everyone, like, re upped.
(08:27):
And he he, like, immediately,like, interjected and said, man,
that's so good. Like, that meansthat you're providing something
that's really, really valuableand well done. And my response
to that was, yeah. I I hopethat's the case.
And he stopped me, and he said,what do you mean you hope that's
the case? Like, it's not I hopethat's the case. He's like, that
is the case. That's why they'repaying you. Like, it is
(08:48):
valuable.
And, like, that was just such aa click moment for me where it
was like, oh, like, factually.Like, it's not it's not an
opinion whether or not it'svaluable. It's factually, said,
I want to continue paying youfor what you're doing for me and
our business right now. And andhe was not really trying to
boost my self esteem at all inthat moment. All he was doing
(09:08):
was saying, like, look at thefacts.
Ben Loy (09:10):
Just reality.
Alex Judd (09:11):
Exactly. Exactly. So the second one, and I'll go
through the second two prettyquick. Freedom, I remember in
the first year of business, it'slike I felt this need to work
till 4PM. And, like, if I, like,on paper, I could absolutely,
you know, wrap up what I neededto for the day and go for a two
(09:31):
hour run if I wanted to at 2PM.
Right? But, man, I if I didthat, I would not feel okay. And
and it was like, I don't I Idon't deserve this free. Like, I
I can't be go. I can't beallowed to do this right now.
And so freedom. And then numberthree is teaching. For the first
couple of live events that wehosted I've been speaking and
teaching for a long time. Right?Like, oh gosh.
(09:55):
Fifteen years maybe, maybelonger than that. But for the
first live event that we hostedourselves, I remember, like, I
was, like, cramming content in,and I was, like, changing it up
till the last minute because Iwas like, people are paying to
come see me teach, and I don'tfeel like what I do is not good
(10:15):
enough for people to come pay tosee. And, like, I have to I have
to change who I am, and I haveto change my typical process for
doing this to meet thosedemands. And I've never really
thought about that as impostorsyndrome until we were kinda
working on this content, but Ithink those are all examples of
it.
Ben Loy (10:30):
Yeah. No. Definitely. Okay.
Alex Judd (10:32):
So now let's go into where have you seen it play out
for others, the impostorsyndrome, maybe particularly in
leadership roles?
Ben Loy (12:21):
I think I could pull up specific examples or, I guess,
point to themes, like and I Ithink when I was thinking about
the different examples that I'veseen in just in work and working
for people and I think it canmanifest in different ways. But
I would I would argue that theroot of impostor syndrome is
actually pride.
Alex Judd (12:40):
And
Ben Loy (12:41):
often, like, how that looks is there's either, like,
an easily marked level of, like,low self esteem or, like, false
humility involved, or on theflip side of that, there is a
there is, like, an exceptionalamount of peacocking and, like,
(13:02):
look at me visibility, like, letme inflate this image of who I
am so that other people respectme. Mhmm. But I would say that,
like, from because you never canreally know unless they
verbalize that that, like, thoseare the thoughts that someone is
having. Right? You can never youcan only project or maybe have
some intuition that someone isgoing through something like
(13:25):
this.
Mhmm. But I would say that thosethings look like, in my opinion
and from my own life, evidenceof impostor syndrome or, like,
not feeling like you're enough.
Alex Judd (13:37):
Mhmm. Yeah, man. I'm so excited to get into the
exploration in this conversationtoo because, I think there's
healthy and unhealthy ways torespond to it for sure. From,
like, a practical standpoint, byfar, the most common way that I
see it play out for leaders is,like, they gain the role of CEO,
but they can't step into thatrole. Right?
(13:59):
There's a gentleman that I Ijust I I love and respect the
guy so much. He owns an HVACcompany, and we have done work
with him now for, I think, twoyears. And he was telling me
recently at one of our in personevents. He told me he said,
Alex, like, the first event thatI came to with y'all was so hard
because I literally could notsee myself not in the truck fee
(14:22):
fixing people's HVAC system.Like, he's like and you were
he's like, you didn't mentionHVAC the entire event.
And he's like, that's that's theonly way I see myself as it
relates to the company. He'slike, and I know I'm a business
owner, and I know technically mybusiness card says CEO. But he
said, like, I just don't I I didnot see myself that way, and so
I never acted that way. And hesaid that first event was the
(14:44):
first time ever he said, Icertainly wasn't convinced, but
he said, like, it it caused meto ask the question, could I be
that? And then he just told mehow honestly, he actually he he,
he, like, gave us a lot ofcredit that he shouldn't have
given us because it was him inso many ways.
He he thanked us for being sopatient with him, and it's like,
dude, the patience is really onyou just to keep chipping away.
(15:07):
And he just talked about howuncomfortable it was for him to
do so many new things over thecourse of really a year and a
half to start playing the roleof CEO. But he said, like, Alex,
now I get to see you here twoyears later. He's like, I'm
doing it. And he's like, I'mdoing so many of the things two
years ago that were literallyforeign to me that he said
(15:27):
before that event, I I wouldhave said I could have never
done this.
And it it was his his way ofviewing himself had shifted. And
and in some ways, he viewedhimself now with much much more
of a growth mindset than a fixedmindset. I think, impostor
syndrome is often rooted in afixed mindset where it's like,
(15:49):
this is who I am. This is who Iwill always be. And any me doing
anything different represents mestepping outside the identity of
who I actually am.
Yep. When in reality, we're allcreated for growth and to move
into new things. But again, thething that we're gonna step into
is how do you do that in a waythat's healthy versus unhealthy?
Ben Loy (16:07):
Yeah. Man, I think that example itself, like you talked
about his view of himself and, Imean, earlier I mentioned, like,
this being an integritydeficiency. Right? Like, the way
the facts of your life and whatis being externally projected
doesn't align with how you feelabout yourself. And so there's a
(16:29):
disconnect there.
And I think I think you'reright. Think the answer is,
like, reflecting on who are wecreated to be? Who like, who did
God create us to be? And throughthat, like, who is God and how
does that affect the way inwhich we interact with ourselves
and the world around us?
Alex Judd (16:46):
That's right. You know, it's so funny. The the
unique seat that we get on thebus, of being the facilitator of
a community of leaders. Right?One of the things that we've
done since we started thecompany was we now do them three
times a week, these office hourscalls that are community
coaching calls for leaders.
And what's interesting is, like,especially, at the beginning of
(17:09):
the company, like, was on all ofthose calls with all of those
leaders, and then I was alsotalking to a lot of them
individually. And what was socool is so many of them
individually would articulate tome like, man, those calls are so
valuable. I'm so grateful forthose calls. And then, like,
every single one of themindividually would say the same
thing to me. They would all say,like, everyone on those calls is
(17:29):
just so smart, and I just don'tfeel qualified to be on the go.
And it's like and and they wouldmention specific people who are
so smart. I'd be like, they saidthe exact same thing about you
to me. Like, literally, this isa call of 10 people, and no one
out of the 10 people feelsqualified to be on this call.
We're just like, so who'squalified to be on this call?
And it, again, just highlightsfor me, it opened my eyes to how
(17:51):
irrational this can be.
And irrationality is an unwiseleadership practice. And so that
kinda gets us into the finalkinda fundamental base level
question. Why is this topic socritical for anyone with
leadership responsibility fromyour perspective?
Ben Loy (18:07):
A verse came to mind when I was thinking about this
topic, and just the thought ofintegrity and wholeness and
alignment in your thinking andthe world around you. And it was
James one five through eight. Itsays, now if any of you lacks
wisdom, he should ask God whogives to who gives to all
generously and ungrudgingly, andit will be given to him. But let
(18:29):
him ask in faith withoutdoubting, for the doubter is
like the surging sea, driven andtossed by the wind. That person
should not expect to receiveanything from the Lord, being
double minded and unstable inhis ways.
And I think the big thing as towhy it's important for leaders
is that, like, being doubleminded or not not being aligned
in who you are, where you'regoing, and just the purpose for
(18:54):
your life is gonna create a tonof instability in how you
navigate your personal life andalso, like, it's gonna have a
insurmountable effect on the waythat you lead and the impact
that you have on other people.Mhmm.
Alex Judd (19:09):
I think that's so well said. And, I mean, I think
it's literally later in thatchapter that he says, like, but
be doers of the word and nothearers only, which I also think
is, like, an impostor syndrome.Like, I think you will, and I
would even say you shouldexperience impostor syndrome if
there's things that you hold upas ideals and standards that
you're not doing. Right? And soin some ways, it's like, to
(19:32):
engage in this with a healthyway, we we better also monitor
ourselves, which just like, am Iliving in alignment with with
with the standards that Isupposedly hold?
For whether it's leadership ormy faith or things like that.
Maybe from a different vein, I Ithink it's really critical for
leaders because what do wealways say leadership is?
Leadership is helping people gofrom here to there. And that
(19:54):
means as a leader, part of yourresponsibility is to lead others
in the taking of new territory.You are you you are charged with
the opportunity, but also theresponsibility of stepping into
things that are new, that aredifferent, that are creative,
that are chaotic, that areunknown, and kind of, you know,
bushwhacking and figuring outthe path where one does not
(20:17):
currently exist.
And I have never once in my lifeindividually or in my leadership
gone further than I've ever goneand and ever felt fully
confident that this is where Iwas supposed to be. Yeah. I've
never felt that way. Right? Yep.
I I don't know if you've everseen, there's that meme of the
Lord of the Rings. There's athere's a have you seen the Lord
of the Rings?
Ben Loy (20:37):
Yes.
Alex Judd (20:37):
Okay. I was like, oh, we needed to pause right now and
go watch that movie, for yourspiritual growth. Yeah. So so in
the fellowship at the ring,like, Sam pauses at one moment,
and Frodo, like, looks back, andhe's like, like, why have you
stopped? What's going on?
And he goes, if I take one morestep, it will be the furthest
that I've ever been. And,there's there's memes that
(21:00):
basically suggest that everystep he takes from that moment,
he says the same thing. He mightjust feel like because it's
like, that's never not true onceyou go past the furthest you've
ever been. Yeah. And that's whatleadership feels like.
Right? And so I think it'sreasonable to say if you are
leading, you're taking newterritory. And if you're taking
new territory, then you shouldanticipate there will be times
(21:22):
where you question whether ornot you are supposed to be where
you are, and the way you respondto that is critically important.
Ben Loy (21:29):
What is the difference between healthy growth and
(22:35):
pushing yourself beyond yourcomfort zone and proving
yourself or or operating from aposition of impostor syndrome
where you're you're just tryingto catch up to or, perform in a
way.
Alex Judd (22:49):
So now it feels like we're getting into the
exploration of this topic. Yeah.As I was kind of thinking about
it, I what I feel like is, like,what what responses to the
feeling of, like, I'm notsupposed to be there. I'm not
qualified for this. In someways, like, the fact that I have
the role of CEO isn't correcteven though I'm playing that
role.
Right? Like, what are theresponses to those that are
(23:12):
healthy? Well, I I think that,the response to that that is
healthy is always gonna begrounded and anchored in truth,
and and, that could be facts.Like, what Dave did for me is he
literally said, like, there arefacts that you are not paying
attention to. And, like, youknow, the facts will help tell
(23:32):
the story, or that can begrounded and anchored in
spiritual truth, I think.
And and I I spent some timewriting down some spiritual
truths, but before we get tothose, I'd love to hear your
thoughts on this too. But insome ways, impostor syndrome is
a feeling, and the minute youfollow your feelings, well,
that's probably unhealthy. Weshould say, how does this
(23:55):
feeling align with the facts? Ithink is the the primary thing
that we have to do todiscriminate between healthy and
unhealthy. Mhmm.
Ben Loy (24:03):
I would just agree.
Alex Judd (24:06):
Love it when people say echo chamber here.
Ben Loy (24:08):
But I think, yeah, I think, I think the, the
existence of imposter syndromeis evidence that your feelings
do not align with, what God saysabout you, what God says about
Himself and the world, and thenalso just the straight up facts
of your life.
Alex Judd (24:25):
And so unhealthy as it relates to impostor syndrome.
So if I'm feeling like, hey, Ican't be doing this. I'm not
enough to be doing this. Like,who am I to be to be to
experience this success or tohave this freedom or things like
that? What is unhealthy responseto those feelings?
I think it's it's untruth iswhat I wrote down. And the
(24:45):
reason why I wrote untruth isbecause a lot of times to me, it
feels a lot more subversive thanjust lies. Right? A lot I the
language that I feel is, like,lies are just bold on their
face, not true. Untruth is this,like, it might have a glimmer of
truth to it, but there'ssomething that's off.
There's something that's notcorrect. And so it could be
three things, I think. Numberone is not acknowledging facts
(25:10):
and, perpetuating feelings offraudulence. So you're saying
like, man, I can't be the CEO ofthis company. Well, you are.
Mhmm. And you have been for thepast two years, and the company
has even grown for the past twoyears. So who's to say you can't
be? Like, that's actually notfactually true. And the more you
tell yourself that, the moreyou're perpetuating that.
(25:31):
Mhmm. Right? Or, like, I can'tgo for a run at 2PM, right, and
take off work. Right? It's like,well, you can.
That's literally not true thatyou can't. And not only can you,
you have. And when you have, thebusiness hasn't fallen apart.
So, again, it's when we start tonot acknowledge or even deny
(25:52):
factual evidence and and retellourselves the story. And and,
you know, I am so far from aneuroscientist.
It's not even funny. But what Iknow to be true is
neuroplasticity neuroplasticityis a thing. Yeah. And the more
we repeat thoughts and andnarratives to ourself, the
easier it is for us to go tothat neural pathway. And that's
(26:13):
where we start to write newfacts for ourselves that are
literally not true.
Ben Loy (26:17):
Yeah. Well, I mean, cognitive behavioral therapy,
which is one of the mosteffective if not, I mean, it
might be the most effective talktherapy, like most studied, most
proven, and a step in cognitivebehavioral therapy is, thinking
errors. Being able to identifythinking errors in your
thinking, where they come from,and then how that affects your,
(26:42):
like, view of yourselfconsistently. And so obviously
the end result of CBT or thegoal is to to correct those
thinking errors in a way thataffects your your view of
yourself. Yeah.
So
Alex Judd (26:54):
I mean, that that is, not dissimilar from the reason
why one of our five coachingqualities that we train all of
our coaches on is curiosity. Andone of the questions that I find
myself asking a lot is, is thattrue? Like, is just literally
repeating back to someone, whatthey say and asking them, is
(27:16):
that true? Because what I oftensee, especially with leader
types, type a, driven,ambitious, they say, I never, I
can't, I won't, I'm not able to.And is is, I mean, such a gift
to be able to reflect that backto them and be like, you said
you've never.
You said you've never been ableto effectively manage someone
over time. Is that true? Andthen they'll, like, start back
(27:40):
at like, well, that's not fullytrue. And you start to see their
entire disposition changebecause it's like, if that is
true, man, this is gonna suckfor you. But the minute you
realize like, oh, that thatgeneralization that I've been
telling myself is not at alltrue, it's wild how your entire
outlook changes.
Yeah. And so the first one thatI first example of untruth that
(28:01):
I gave was not acknowledgingfacts and therefore perpetuating
feelings of fraudulence. Numbertwo is operating from a posture
of self sufficiency and totaladequacy. So this is this is the
the other end of the spectrumwhere you say, man, I feel like
a fraud. And so what you do isyou say, I feel like I'm not
enough.
That's not true.
Ben Loy (28:21):
I am
Alex Judd (28:22):
enough. I just need to stand in front of the mirror
for ten minutes every singlemorning and tell myself, I'm a
$5,000,000 CEO of a business. Iam amazing. The world just
hasn't recognized it yet. Justeveryone just needs to see it.
And it I mean, there are I mean,I I feel like I'm saying this in
a joking way. This is, like,very seriously what people are
(28:42):
recommending people do right
Ben Loy (28:44):
big, healthy dose of toxic positivity.
Alex Judd (28:47):
Yeah. And self talk. Right? And and, so positive
psychology was, I believe it wasreally, really popularized in
the seventies and eighties, andit was a whole vein of
psychology. Right?
Obviously, I believe in thepower of positive thinking, but
it can get taken too far. Mhmm.And it did get taken too far.
And one of the lies associatedwith the positive psychology
(29:10):
movement was it literallyadvised therapists to allow
people to live with the lie andlet the lie be their umbrella.
Yeah.
Right? So it's like, literallyhold the lie over you, and that
will shelter you from life'sstorms. And it's like, well,
eventually, a hurricane willcome, and your umbrella is not
gonna work very well in ahurricane. The truth always
(29:31):
catches up to you. And so theidea that we need to actively
deny these feelings when some ofthem could be true, like some of
them could be like, wow, I amnot equipped to do this.
Like, in some ways, I told ourteam recently, like, we are on
track to being a $2,000,000company. Praise god. That's
amazing. Right? I I have neverrun a $2,000,000 company before.
(29:53):
Right? I have not. And somehow,I look up, and it's like, that's
what I'm charged with right now.You better believe there's
feelings of inadequacy, and someof those need to be rooted out
because they're not factual.Some of those are probably true.
Like, I probably need to getbetter in some things as a
leader, as a as a business mind,as a a person that's able to
(30:14):
manage family and business atthe same time. Right? There's
probably some areas where I I aminadequate to the task, but the
good news is is I'm not a fixedperson. I can grow. Yeah.
But to deny those things isactually gonna be the thing that
keeps me in a fixed spot, think.
Ben Loy (30:28):
Yeah. Well, because if if impostor syndrome is being
being disconnected your feelingsare disconnected from reality,
like, the flip side of that,having having a ton of of
positivity that isn'tnecessarily still aligned with
reality, like, this the issuestill exists there. It hasn't
been solved.
Alex Judd (30:46):
That's right. Yes. Exactly. And and so then the
final one that I would say isyou're you're not acknowledging
spiritual truths that enable youto do new things by faith. So
you could say, you're notacknowledging the facts, or you
could say you are completely,denying facts that suggest that
there is some inadequacy.
(31:08):
Or you're saying, hey. I'minadequate, and you do
acknowledge that. I'm inadequateto the task at hand, but you're
not looking at the spiritualtruths that challenge us to walk
by faith and suggest that faithis, you know, the assurance of
things hoped for and theevidence of things not seen. And
and our faith tells us, like,there are spiritual truths that
(31:28):
say, you can do things that youhave not done before. Mhmm.
And in some ways, that is a coretheme of the entire bible is
people stepping into newterritory by faith before they
knew what the result was goingto be and trusting that the
result wasn't all on them. Yeah.But when we deny those spiritual
realities, and I I have a listof them that I'd like for us to
(31:50):
walk through, but when we denythose spiritual realities, we
are perpetuating unhealthyuntruth in our lives.
Ben Loy (31:57):
Yeah. I mean, you want evidence in the Bible, just pick
up Hebrews 11.
Alex Judd (32:00):
Just read Yeah. Just The hall of faith is what you're
referring to.
Ben Loy (32:03):
I mean, just, like, all of those people, when you go
back and you read the stories,had some pretty pretty big
shortcomings. And regardless,like, God called them into into
mission, into purpose, intofulfillment.
Alex Judd (32:17):
And, I mean, let's think about, like, a primary
one, Moses. Mhmm. Right? Godspeaks to Moses through the
burning bush, and, one of Moses'first responses is basically
like, you've got the wrong guy.Yeah.
Like, you clearly don't know me.I'm not eloquent in words. I
have a checkered past to say theleast. Like, I don't think I'm
(32:40):
your guy. And God's response tothat is anger, which is
interesting because I think ithits on what you said is it's
like Moses is literally makingit about himself, and God is
saying, like, you think this isabout you?
Like, I'm not making like, I'mtelling you I'm going to do
this, and I've chosen to useyou. And I'm not, quite frankly,
(33:01):
not asking you about youropinion of your qualifications
in some ways.
Ben Loy (33:06):
Yeah. I mean, it is. It's a subversive form of pride.
Alex Judd (33:09):
Yeah. Right? Yeah. Which and you could look at it
and be like, oh, I'm notqualified to do that. I can't be
used by God in that way.
We could we could literally lookat that and slap the tag of
humility on that. But when youactually, I mean, when you
actually think about it, it'slike he is way, way, way giving
him himself, disproportionalinfluence over outcomes and not
(33:32):
at all trusting in God's actualsovereignty over outcomes. So
the spiritual truths that Ithink we have to be anchored in
to handle this in a healthy way,we just talked about one. God
does not call the qualified. Hequalifies the called.
Right? The the I mean, outsideof Jesus, I can't think of a
single person that, like, in theBible that it's like, oh, man.
(33:54):
They had their act together, andthat's why god picked them.
Like, nope. Not at all.
God gives and god takes away.Right? So, again, I think this
is a, diversion, or this iswhere I think spiritual truth
can deviate from pop culture'sconception of impostor syndrome
(34:15):
is I think pop culture'sinterpretation of impostor
syndrome and how to respond toit is, like, you call your
successes luck. Those aren'tluck. You created those.
That was all you. And I thinkspiritual truth suggests that
it's like, it it was not luck,but it also was not all you. You
you were the vessel that Godchose to participate in the
(34:38):
process, but God did the thing.God gives the blessing, and he
takes it away. Few more.
God's power and strength aremagnified in our weakness is a
spiritual truth that we shouldremember that. So that's why
it's so crucial that we don'tdeny our weakness. And then
another one that I think isworth hitting on is that God
accomplishes his ends in andthrough people. And that is just
(35:01):
true. Right?
Like, if you read the Bible,it's like it's very rarely, if
ever, God choosing to do thingsin the world divorced from any
human involvement at all. It'salways in and through people.
And so he's going to choose touse someone, and it's like, if
he's gonna use someone, whycouldn't that person be you in
certain situations? Mhmm. Andthen finally, true confidence is
(35:24):
not rooted in human ability orachievement, but in God's
sovereignty, which I think wecould talk more about that
because I think we're reallydiscussing confidence here and
where true confidence comesfrom.
But, yeah, are there any otherspiritual truths that you think
people need to be grounded in,or any thoughts that you have on
those ones that I just shared?
Ben Loy (35:42):
I think you covered a lot of them. I one of the ones
that stuck out to me, the lastone and then also, related to
people, like, as pop culture'sposture being like, oh, you
created this, like, you causedthis, this was the work that
that you put in. The realitythat we can till the soil, but,
like, God provides the rain.Right? And and God is the one
(36:05):
who's actually going to He hecreated a world in which when we
work, growth can happen.
But, like, there's a huge dividebetween what the world says the
solution to impostor syndromewould be there and what
scripture says.
Alex Judd (36:22):
Yeah. I actually heard a quote. Gosh, it was this
past week that was from an oldermissionary, and the book, it was
John Piper's desiring god, wastalking about how lots of times
people deeply mischaracterizethis quote. And the quote is
expect great things from God,attempt great things for God.
(36:44):
And the idea is how would youlive if you actually believed
that the god of the entireuniverse who's sovereignly in
control of everything loved you,cared for you, knew what was
best for you, and was activelyworking to see it come to pass?
(37:07):
Like, how would you live if youknew that was true? You should
expect God to do great thingsbecause that is in the character
of who he is. And then attemptgreat things for God. A lot of
what people distort that into isI'm gonna go independently do
great things for God. What thiswas actually saying is put
yourself in positions andsituations proactively where you
(37:29):
can't do anything but lean onhim, where you know just how
much you need him because onyour own power, this is
absolutely not possible.
And I thought that was such agood leadership statement of
like, man, we we live in such atime where we're, you know,
challenged to grow, moveforward, take risk. But in some
ways, it's like we're challengedto do that on our own power. And
(37:50):
what this is saying is, like,that's a failing, worthless
strategy is do things that youcan't do on your own power to
such a degree that you have tolean and depend on God.
Ben Loy (38:00):
I mean, that really just goes back on the idea of
pride. Right? Like, having ahaving a right view of who God
is and and how he works and howhe created the world to be is
gonna, like, correct everythingelse if if you do, if you have a
good if you have a right view ofwho God is.
Alex Judd (38:17):
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And I think that, one of the
other stories that I think of,because we're now talking about
confidence, I I think one of thebest displays of confidence in
the Old Testament is Davidstepping up to take on Goliath.
And David walked forward.
In in some ways, if anyone,like, could have experienced
(38:38):
some serious impostor syndrome,like, I shouldn't be here. How,
like, how can I be doing this?How am I the person that's been
given this responsibility? Like,I would think that he was the
guy, but he what he experiencesis actually the opposite of
that. Like, he runs to the line,right, towards Goliath and,
like, literally yells him down.
(38:58):
So in some ways, we could lookat this and be like, well, is
that literally the toxicpositivity that we're advising
people against? But if weactually read the passage, we
actually did a whole podcast on,like, David versus Goliath as a
display of healthy confidence. Ithink what we actually see is
his confidence is not inhimself. Like, the reason why
he's able to run to the line isbecause, like, he's like, you
(39:22):
have not insulted me. You havenot even insulted the Hebrew
nation.
You have insulted the God ofheaven and earth, and he's gonna
give me your head is what hesays. And so it's like, he's
literally saying, this isn'tabout me. You think it's me
standing against you right now?That's not who you're fighting
right now. And I get why youwould be laughing if you're
fighting me, but you're notfighting me.
I'm just the vessel. And I thinkthat's the the posture that we
(39:45):
have to adopt if we want true,healthy, sustainable confidence
is is your confidence in yourabilities. If so, it's gonna
fail every single time. If yourconfidence is in the god that
you're serving, well, then Ithink you can literally run to
the battle line. I get preachyon that on that answer
Ben Loy (40:02):
a little bit. Run with
Alex Judd (40:02):
it. Yeah. Yeah. Was there another question that you
wanted to make sure we got ongot into on this topic?
Ben Loy (40:10):
I guess too, and and it's I guess it's shifting more
into the practical side ofthings.
Alex Judd (40:14):
Like,
Ben Loy (40:15):
how we've alluded a lot from, I think, a higher level
to, like, how do you solve forimpostor syndrome? Like, what
are I think there are practicalthings that you could start
doing, certainly, but I alsothink there is a there is a mind
shift that needs to happenbefore you even start taking
those actions.
Alex Judd (40:35):
Can you start with the mind shift? I'd like to hear
your thoughts.
Ben Loy (40:38):
Yeah. I mean, I think we've already alluded a lot to
it and talked about it. I think,I think really taking the time
to understand your place in inthis world and in life, through
the lens of of who is God andwho has He said He is, and then
(40:59):
what has He said about me andthe world around us, and and
actually, like, taking the timeto sit in that and reflect in it
and just study his word. Like, Ithink that one of the most some
of the most profound things, Ithink, in my own life growing
beyond impostor syndrome or inmoments where I've I've felt
(41:22):
like a fraud or, like, I had toprove myself or, like, I was
going to be found out that Iwasn't competent, the root of
that was, like, returning toJesus, returning to who he was,
and understanding that, like, weare we are vessels. Like, God is
the ultimate authority and inhis sovereignty, like, I can
(41:46):
take whatever actions I want,but, like, ultimately, I have
arrived in this position, I havearrived with this influence,
doing this job because Godallowed that to happen.
And so he wants me here for areason, and that reason is both
for my own personal developmentand sanctification and also for
(42:09):
the purpose of furthering thegospel.
Alex Judd (42:11):
Yeah. In that regard, it seems like there's a great
deal of overlap, basically, theway you think about and
understand identity. Mhmm. Ithink identity, we could look at
it through the lens of threequestions, like, who is God, who
am I, and who are others, asvery simple questions. And,
(42:32):
like, starting with the firstone, who is God?
We shared this principle at anexperience a while back, and it
was just so it was so powerfulfor me to reflect on this. Your
experience of God is alwaysgonna be dependent on your
concept of God. Right? And Ihave literally talked to people
(42:52):
before that say, man, I I reallystruggle to have a conversation,
like, with God in prayer justbecause, like, I I don't know
that I can trust her, like, aGod that is just, like, so
wrathful and so angry and, like,and it makes me feel shame for
doing things wrong. It's like, Idon't know that I could trust
that god either because I don'tthink that's god.
Right? And, like, I don't knowwhere you got your concept of
god, but I can tell you it's notthe bible. Right? And, like,
(43:14):
there's a great book calledgentle and lowly that really
characterizes the the thread ofwho god is throughout the
totality of scripture. And godis love.
Right? And what is love? SaintSaint Thomas Aquinas defined
love as to will the good of theother. So God is not just
actively willing the good of theother. It's who he is.
It is embedded in his being, andthat's what we've gotta
(43:36):
remember. And the minute we moreproperly understand who God is,
well, then we can go to thesecond question, which is who am
I? And there was a a while backwhere I I can't even remember
how I got into this, but it'slike, I I think that it was I
was probably struggling with alittle bit of attaching too much
of my identity to achievementsor to performance or things like
(43:58):
that. And especially starting asmall business, like,
performance is a roller coaster,and it's like, yeah, if you're
starting a small business, it'sa lot less stable than an
existing business. And if one ofthe things that will quickly
reveal is if you're attachingyour identity to your
performance because then youridentity is gonna look a lot
like your line graphs forbusiness, so that's rough.
(44:19):
Right? And so I think I hadspent some time being like, I
had diagnosed the problem, saidthis isn't okay, and literally
spent some time saying inprayer, like, who am I, like,
according to the bible? And,like, let's just get, like,
super simple. And I vividlyremember, like, praying about it
and, like, just coming to threeconclusions that were very
(44:40):
helpful because I think they didwhat you said, which is, like,
remind you of who you are inlight of who God is. It's like,
who am I?
I'm a son of God. Right? Who amI? I am a sinner. That is also
biblically true.
Right? So I'm a son of God. I'ma sinner. And then also, who am
I? I am someone he deemed worthsaving.
And then I was like, I don'tknow that I can think of a third
(45:01):
point, which is interesting.Like, if you're actually getting
to the core of who you are, Ithink a lot of the things that
we try to generate is that theexact peacocking like you're
talking about. Like, we generateall this accoutrement around us
that looks really good, and wetry to convince people this is
who I am. And in reality, if youwanna know who I am, I'm a son
of God. I'm a sinner, and I wassomeone he deemed worth saving.
(45:25):
But you wanna talk aboutsomething that dramatically
affects your leadership is ifyou actually internalize those
three identity statements. Ithas ramifications for everything
you do. You know?
Ben Loy (45:36):
I mean, we go to redemption in in our service
every week. Right? We do we doand there's a time for worship.
There's time for confession.There's a time for hearing from
the word, and then there's atime to take communion.
And, like, all of those thingswhen when you when you look at
the core of what they are, Ikind of identify those it's
(45:59):
those three categories.
Alex Judd (46:00):
Right? Like,
Ben Loy (46:00):
confession, like, I am I am a sinner in need of saving,
like, and then hearing from theword, like, who who does God say
He is and and where do we go forthat? Like, we we go to the
Bible. Mhmm. And then from that,we get to worship and partake in
communion, which is anexpression of of salvation and
(46:21):
being saved. Right?
And so just viewing it throughthat lens, like, it makes sense
that that would be an importantpart of a service or a liturgy
because that is that is how weare realigning ourselves on a
consistent basis with who whoGod says we are.
Alex Judd (46:37):
Yeah. And we which is so cool because I I think a lot
of the common talk aroundimpostor syndrome right now is
actually just shallow feelingmanagement. Mhmm. Like, it's
like, oh, that's how you feel.Let's get you to feel a
different different way.
But it's like, man, my myfeelings are so erratic and
unpredictable. It's not evenfunny. And so I think why what
(46:59):
we're talking about here is alot more sustainable is because
it it's it's saying we'reactually just gonna take
feelings out of the driver'sseat in totality. Like, we're
not gonna allow feelings to bethe thing that's driving the way
you act, think, and live. We'rewe're gonna put truth in the
driver's seat.
And so if we think about each ofthose things like son of god,
(47:21):
like, man, what does that imply?Or or daughter of god for that
matter. That means, like, youare someone that has absurd
creative potential. Right? Like,god is the god of creation, and
it's like he made you in his ownimage, And, like, you have the
ability to uncover the hiddenswaths of potential in all of
creation all around you.
But, also, what do you do foryour son or daughter? You
(47:43):
provide for them. So you arebecause you're a son or a
daughter, like, you are providedfor. That's part of your
identity. You're protected.
You're guided. You're lookedafter. Right? Like, that's part
of who you are. And I I thinkit's one of the reasons why as I
was kind of working on this, Iwas so excited about this
particular conversation forleaders is because it's like,
man, leaders feel this burden ofproviding for, protecting,
(48:07):
looking after so many people.
Like, you feel the burden ofthat. And I I think that is
being a good shepherd. Right?But, man, it sucks if that's
your job description, and youdon't feel like anyone is
shepherding you. Like, that isawful.
And what's so cool about this isif you have rooted your identity
in being a son or daughter ofGod, you're like, this is what I
get to do for others because Iknow. I don't think. I don't
(48:30):
feel. I know this is what isdone for me. And and then we can
go to, like, sinner.
It's like, well, now you have away to contextualize failure,
brokenness, mistakes, and thefact that you're fallen is it's
not this thing that you have tohide. It's not this thing that
that it makes you unable to dothings for God or for others.
(48:52):
It's just something that's partof the sinful nature of who you
are. And then that brings us tothe third one. You are worth
saving.
Right? Like, you are someonethat God said, I I love that
kiddo, and I'm I am going tosacrifice more than anything so
that they would know that theyare loved and they could live in
right standing with me. Andthat's how we get to live, and
that recontextualizes thatidentity statement of sinner as
(49:15):
well. And, oh my god. Like, theand I mean that literally.
Oh my god. Like, that changesthe way you lead when you lead
from that spot. But so let'stalk practically then. If that's
the identity we want to leadfrom, how do we make sure that's
where we're coming from fromyour like, what does that look
(49:37):
like practically?
Ben Loy (49:38):
I think so like like you said, surrounding yourself
with people who are are goingare in alignment with that, who
are going to who to point youthat direction, and letting them
in enough that they can pointyou that direction when it's
needed. Mhmm. I think often,community is more shallow than
(50:01):
we really want or or need it tobe because we're not willing to
let people in so they canactually shed light on how we're
oriented, how we're living ourlives, and and the decisions
we're making. So, I thinkcommunity is huge. I think I I
said this earlier, I mean, I'mgenuinely just sitting in the
word, like Yeah.
(50:21):
Not and not to, like, read, notto free the bible in a year or
or cover as much as the word aspossible, but just, like, like,
read the word and if somethinglatches onto you, stop. Like,
sit sit in it and and listen andand, like, mull over the
realities of what God's wordsays. Because I think that I
(50:43):
mean, the the word transforms,like, through the holy spirit,
like, the word will transformyou. Mhmm. Meditating on it day
and night.
Right? Third, there are, like,and this is I think this is an,
an effect of common grace, like,through through psychology and
through the world that we livein, like, are resources and
there are practices that you cando that when done consistently
(51:09):
help change and reorientyourself to both the way that
you see God and the way that yousee yourself. And practically, I
think one of the ones that wasmost impactful for me was
honestly super simple. And I wasseeing a therapist at the time
and she was like, I just wantyou to to keep a gratitude
journal. Like, every nightbefore you go to bed, write five
(51:29):
things down that you're you'regrateful for, big or small.
Mhmm. And, I mean, I did it formonths and I still do it. Like,
you talk about rewiring yourbrain, like, I'll do it in the
car when I'm driving. Like, I'lljust start thinking of things
I'm grateful for andgratefulness, when I'm
expressing that gratefulness toGod specifically, is an
(51:50):
incredible antidote to to pride,which is like, if pride says,
it's all on me, I haveaccomplished this, it also says
like, any failure, any doubt,any any feelings of inadequacy
are also a 100% result of me.And so just the simple practice
of practicing gratitude allowsyou to express that like, hey, I
(52:15):
have these things because Godallows me to have them and
because He has designed me inthis specific way that that has
given me these gifts or theseconnections or I live in this
specific area that I get toexperience these blessings and
these realities of the creationthat he of the world that he
created.
And, it just it does somethingto you when you when you do that
(52:37):
on a consistent basis.
Alex Judd (52:39):
Yeah. I I totally agree with you. I I think the
one that I would double click onthere is, the community piece is
because so much of impostorsyndrome can be that pattern of
feeling like, man, if they onlyknew. Mhmm. If they only knew.
And what's the single best wayto reinforce that line of
(53:01):
thinking is just don't letanyone know. And then you're
writing yourself a lie. Like, ifthey only knew what was true
about me, I couldn't lead thiscompany. I couldn't have this
family. I couldn't be thissuccessful.
If they only knew and then youkeep it a secret, so there's no
way for you to ever disprove.Like, you you're not inviting
(53:22):
other people in to disprove thatlie that you are telling
yourself or that untruth thatyou're telling yourself. And,
you know, discussion around sinand practicing confession in
your most intimaterelationships, which I'm I'm
thinking, like, your one to fivemost intimate relationships is
which I what I'll be teaching atthis upcoming experience. Like,
(53:43):
is there any undealt with hiddensin that you haven't received or
extended grace for. Mhmm.
And I think if the answer tothat is yes, not only will you
be experiencing impostorsyndrome, it might actually be a
flag that it's like, have somework to do in living in
integrity, go to go back to youroriginal definition. But what's
(54:04):
so powerful and cool is, like Imean, Aspen and I literally have
conversations that start with itfeels so formal, but it's like,
I have something that I want toconfess to you. And it's like,
oh, you know, like, that soundslike such a big word. Now it's
just very normalized to us.Right?
But it's like we we share that.And, you know, when you have a
(54:26):
relationship where the personlooks at you and that's like,
oh, and their reaction isn'tthat I have four eyes, or isn't
that like, well, you need toshut down Path for Growth
immediately. Right? But ratherthat, like, their reaction is
like, oh, man. I'm sorry thatyou're struggling with that.
And, like, know that I'm gonnapray for you. Know that this
doesn't change the fact that Ilove you and I forgive you. And
(54:47):
and then, you know, we make apractice practice of asking,
like, how can I help? Mhmm. Howcan I help in that?
What does that look like? And,oh my gosh. Then if you got
those people that help you,recontextualize the things in
your life that you are mostlikely to tell yourself lies
about, you you just I mean, youcan see why Paul was so bold and
(55:10):
so brash because he was livingwide, like, wide open. Right?
He's like, there's nothing aboutwhat I have done that y'all
don't know about, and therefore,like, I'm gonna move forward
because I've been saved bygrace, and now I get to go
extend that grace to otherpeople.
And and so it's why genuine,authentic, transparent,
(55:30):
vulnerable community is so it'sso critically important for
leaders in particular. Is thereanything else you wanna make
sure we talk about in thisconversation?
Ben Loy (55:40):
No. I mean, I think, we're out of time, so that's
part of it. But I think that's agreat note to end on.
Alex Judd (55:46):
Cool. Thanks, Ben. Thank you. Well, there you have
it. Thanks so much for joiningus for this episode.
If you want any of theinformation or resources that we
mentioned, that's all in theshow notes. Hey, before you go,
could I ask you for one quickfavor? Could you subscribe,
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(56:07):
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front. Are you a leader thatwants to grow your business in a
(56:29):
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(56:51):
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Y'all are the people that makethis possible. Y'all know this.
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Let's go.
Okay. This is gonna be a fun one. I think it's gonna
be an interesting one. Let'slet's start off with, like, some
fundamental basic questions justso that we can get everyone on
the same page about what we'retalking about. So let's start
with a functional definition.
What is impostor syndrome? Yeah.Tell me what you kinda learned
and what you thought about asyou kinda look at that question.
Ben Loy (00:22):
So I guess the term impostor syndrome, when I when I
did a little bit of research,first came up in the nineteen
seventies. A psychologist namedPauline Rose Clance just coined
the term. Classic Pauline.
Alex Judd (00:35):
Yeah. Exactly. Classic Pauline.
Ben Loy (00:38):
But, I mean, the gist of it is basically feeling,
like, underqualified or, like animpostor or fraud, in a whatever
position or role that you're in.Yeah.
Alex Judd (00:49):
That's what I found too. And I actually, found like
a synonym for it is fraudsyndrome, which personally for
me, I actually, for whateverreason, that communicates more
about what it actually is to me.And and, you know, as I was kind
of reading about it, researchingit, thinking about my own
experience with it, it's likewhat are the feelings and
patterns associated withimpostor syndrome? It's this
(01:11):
idea that, like, man, mysetbacks, mistakes, or failures
are always because of me, but mysuccesses never are. Right?
It's like nothing I experiencethat's good ever has anything of
me in it. Right? It's alwaysluck. And then really just maybe
that's, like, a pervading senseof, like, I'm a fraud, and I'm
going to be found out. Like,this this entire thing that I'm
(01:34):
building, regardless of whatthat thing is, your life, your
business, your marriage,whatever, is a house of cards
and it's going to come fallingdown eventually.
Anything else you'd add just forpeople to understand, like, what
we're talking about and whatimpostor syndrome is?
Ben Loy (01:48):
Yeah. I mean, I think I created my own definition for
impostor syndrome, but it pointsmore qualified to do that?
Alex Judd (01:56):
Probably not. Yeah. You know, we're gonna Well,
that's a very impostor syndromequestion. Ask if you're
qualified. Yeah.
Okay. What you got?
Ben Loy (02:03):
So I said, I said impostor syndrome is an
integrity deficiency and notnecessarily integrity of of
character, but, if integrity isbeing, at its most basic
definition, wholeness, theimpostor syndrome would be,
like, the facts of your life notlining up with how you
internally feel.
Alex Judd (02:20):
Yeah. Man, I think you're already alluding to some
of what we're gonna get into inthis episode. I I also think,
it's helpful to mention that, atleast from what I found, as of
2019, impostor syndrome was nota recognized psychiatric
disorder, and, I couldn't findanything that suggests that
(02:42):
since 2019 it has become arecognized psychiatric disorder.
And so, that's not to say itshouldn't be talked about and
shouldn't be discussed. Iactually think it should be
discussed because everythingthat I saw in terms of data has
suggested that the use of thisterm and phrase has skyrocketed,
particularly over the course ofthe past ten years.
Like, literally, one of thearticles I read said, like, use
(03:02):
of the term impostor syndromehas exploded in the last ten
years. And and so whether it's,you know, been scientifically
studied to the degree that theAmerican Psychiatric Association
has declared it an actual thing,data's still out on that. But it
is something that anecdotally,kind of the zeitgeist is
recognizing it as like, this issomething that people
(03:24):
experience, and so thereforewe're gonna keep talking about
it. But I also think it's whyit's as believers, as people
that wanna lead with wisdom, aspeople that wanna influence
other people in a positive andhealthy way. It's why it's
something that's good to maybebe spending some time talking
about and being reallyintentional about how we think
about it because the jury'sstill out on how we respond to
(03:46):
this thing, what this thingactually is, and I think there
are unhealthy and healthy waysto respond to it.
So with that, let's go to thesecond, kind of big fundamental
question. Let's start with justpersonal experience. Give us
some examples. Like, where haveyou seen this play out for
yourself?
Ben Loy (04:02):
It's a good question. I think well, I brought this up as
a podcast conversation because Ithink there are multiple areas
where I I have felt impostorsyndrome. Mhmm. One of the
really clear ones, I think, thatwas interesting to navigate
through was when I was in theCoast Guard. And, you know, you
spend I spent two years trainingfor rescue swimmer school, and,
(04:26):
then you go to rescue swimmerschool.
It's it's six months long. Butwhen you graduate, when you
finally make it through, you'renot a rescue swimmer yet. You
have to get qualified before youactually earn your wings. And so
there's this, like, justconstant impending sort of I'm
not quite there, I'm not quitethere, I'm not quite there. And
then one day you wake up and,you know, you get qualified,
(04:47):
you, you get to your unit, yougo through all the flights, the
syllabus, you get your EMT cert.
And I just remember on thebackside of it being like, okay,
I I guess I've made it, like,I'm here. And then, you know,
you have you have your first, Ihad my first case, and just
after the fact just reflectingon it and being like, did that,
like, really just happen? Like,I just I just pulled a dude out
(05:09):
of the woods, like, am Iqualified to do that? Like Yeah.
I guess on paper, yes.
And like but just feeling alittle bit, like, when when when
the reality of of you being thesole person going down to help
someone in in a situation likethat, actually hit me. I was
like, oh, wow. Yeah. Like, I'm Ihad this goal and then I I have
(05:33):
arrived and I don't necessarilyI I know I'm equipped to do
this, but something internallywith me felt a little bit off.
Like, it felt like I was like,oh, this yeah.
I do I belong here?
Alex Judd (05:46):
You know? Yeah. And I think that that really
highlights the dissonance thatoccurs because my guess is you
would have looked at anyone elsethat had walked through the
process that you had walkedthrough to become a member of
the Coast Guard to be able to goon missions like that. And if
you knew the process they walkedthrough, if you knew the the
(06:06):
intentionality, diligence, hardwork that they applied to go
through all that, and you knewthat they were certified and I
asked you objectively, Ben, arethey qualified to be able to do
this? Well, what would youranswer have been?
Yes. Yeah.
Ben Loy (06:17):
And I worked with, like, 13 of them. Right?
Alex Judd (06:18):
And, like, no doubt they are qualified. Yep. But me
myself, like, if there'ssomething like, I don't know if
I'm qualified Yep. Yeah. Okay.
So I had three areas, that I Ithink I I've really experienced
this, particularly in the lastfive years. It would be impostor
syndrome as it relates tosuccess, impostor syndrome as it
(06:40):
relates to freedom, and impostorsyndrome as it relates to
teaching or communicating. Andso success, the story that came
to mind, which I don't know ifI've shared this in the podcast
before. So, left my full timejob to start the business.
Business was going well.
Probably about eight months in,I was going to Nashville, and I
was like, man, it seemed likethe exit went really well. Like,
(07:03):
they were so supportive. I wasjust like, I wonder if Dave
would be willing to sit down.And just like, I I have a lot of
questions now that I didn't evenknow to ask eight months ago
about running a business that II mean, if I have a connection
to Dave Ramsey, who's, like,probably one of the most
prolific teachers on businessand leadership right now, like
why wouldn't I send the email?So I sent him an email and I
(07:23):
remember clicking Sam beinglike, will he answer this?
And immediately response cameback and he said, Alex, like,
would love to sit down with you.Why don't we do it at the
office? Let me know if there'sany other leaders in the
organization you would like tobe there and, like, looking
forward to it. Wow. So sogracious.
So awesome. And so I I got tothe office and literally, like,
(07:44):
bourbon wine charcuterie board.Like, it was, like, this is
insane. Like, just unbelievably,like, abundance minded,
gracious, all of that. And so wehad a great conversation.
How this ties into this topicis, you know, eventually he
asked me, like, give me anupdate on how the business is
going and kinda like what thingsare looking like. And I said, I
think things are going well. Isaid, we've we've made it past,
(08:05):
a six month, like, kindabenchmark with a lot of our
first customers. And, I said,like, we kind of whenever they
signed up, they signed up for aninitial six months. It was like
they were opting in for a sixmonth process to ensure growth
of their business and theirpersonal life and all of that.
And I said, just passed that,and everyone, like, re upped.
(08:27):
And he he, like, immediately,like, interjected and said, man,
that's so good. Like, that meansthat you're providing something
that's really, really valuableand well done. And my response
to that was, yeah. I I hopethat's the case.
And he stopped me, and he said,what do you mean you hope that's
the case? Like, it's not I hopethat's the case. He's like, that
is the case. That's why they'repaying you. Like, it is
(08:48):
valuable.
And, like, that was just such aa click moment for me where it
was like, oh, like, factually.Like, it's not it's not an
opinion whether or not it'svaluable. It's factually, said,
I want to continue paying youfor what you're doing for me and
our business right now. And andhe was not really trying to
boost my self esteem at all inthat moment. All he was doing
(09:08):
was saying, like, look at thefacts.
Ben Loy (09:10):
Just reality.
Alex Judd (09:11):
Exactly. Exactly. So the second one, and I'll go
through the second two prettyquick. Freedom, I remember in
the first year of business, it'slike I felt this need to work
till 4PM. And, like, if I, like,on paper, I could absolutely,
you know, wrap up what I neededto for the day and go for a two
(09:31):
hour run if I wanted to at 2PM.
Right? But, man, I if I didthat, I would not feel okay. And
and it was like, I don't I Idon't deserve this free. Like, I
I can't be go. I can't beallowed to do this right now.
And so freedom. And then numberthree is teaching. For the first
couple of live events that wehosted I've been speaking and
teaching for a long time. Right?Like, oh gosh.
(09:55):
Fifteen years maybe, maybelonger than that. But for the
first live event that we hostedourselves, I remember, like, I
was, like, cramming content in,and I was, like, changing it up
till the last minute because Iwas like, people are paying to
come see me teach, and I don'tfeel like what I do is not good
(10:15):
enough for people to come pay tosee. And, like, I have to I have
to change who I am, and I haveto change my typical process for
doing this to meet thosedemands. And I've never really
thought about that as impostorsyndrome until we were kinda
working on this content, but Ithink those are all examples of
it.
Ben Loy (10:30):
Yeah. No. Definitely. Okay.
Alex Judd (10:32):
So now let's go into where have you seen it play out
for others, the impostorsyndrome, maybe particularly in
leadership roles?
Ben Loy (12:21):
I think I could pull up specific examples or, I guess,
point to themes, like and I Ithink when I was thinking about
the different examples that I'veseen in just in work and working
for people and I think it canmanifest in different ways. But
I would I would argue that theroot of impostor syndrome is
actually pride.
Alex Judd (12:40):
And
Ben Loy (12:41):
often, like, how that looks is there's either, like,
an easily marked level of, like,low self esteem or, like, false
humility involved, or on theflip side of that, there is a
there is, like, an exceptionalamount of peacocking and, like,
(13:02):
look at me visibility, like, letme inflate this image of who I
am so that other people respectme. Mhmm. But I would say that,
like, from because you never canreally know unless they
verbalize that that, like, thoseare the thoughts that someone is
having. Right? You can never youcan only project or maybe have
some intuition that someone isgoing through something like
(13:25):
this.
Mhmm. But I would say that thosethings look like, in my opinion
and from my own life, evidenceof impostor syndrome or, like,
not feeling like you're enough.
Alex Judd (13:37):
Mhmm. Yeah, man. I'm so excited to get into the
exploration in this conversationtoo because, I think there's
healthy and unhealthy ways torespond to it for sure. From,
like, a practical standpoint, byfar, the most common way that I
see it play out for leaders is,like, they gain the role of CEO,
but they can't step into thatrole. Right?
(13:59):
There's a gentleman that I Ijust I I love and respect the
guy so much. He owns an HVACcompany, and we have done work
with him now for, I think, twoyears. And he was telling me
recently at one of our in personevents. He told me he said,
Alex, like, the first event thatI came to with y'all was so hard
because I literally could notsee myself not in the truck fee
(14:22):
fixing people's HVAC system.Like, he's like and you were
he's like, you didn't mentionHVAC the entire event.
And he's like, that's that's theonly way I see myself as it
relates to the company. He'slike, and I know I'm a business
owner, and I know technically mybusiness card says CEO. But he
said, like, I just don't I I didnot see myself that way, and so
I never acted that way. And hesaid that first event was the
(14:44):
first time ever he said, Icertainly wasn't convinced, but
he said, like, it it caused meto ask the question, could I be
that? And then he just told mehow honestly, he actually he he,
he, like, gave us a lot ofcredit that he shouldn't have
given us because it was him inso many ways.
He he thanked us for being sopatient with him, and it's like,
dude, the patience is really onyou just to keep chipping away.
(15:07):
And he just talked about howuncomfortable it was for him to
do so many new things over thecourse of really a year and a
half to start playing the roleof CEO. But he said, like, Alex,
now I get to see you here twoyears later. He's like, I'm
doing it. And he's like, I'mdoing so many of the things two
years ago that were literallyforeign to me that he said
(15:27):
before that event, I I wouldhave said I could have never
done this.
And it it was his his way ofviewing himself had shifted. And
and in some ways, he viewedhimself now with much much more
of a growth mindset than a fixedmindset. I think, impostor
syndrome is often rooted in afixed mindset where it's like,
(15:49):
this is who I am. This is who Iwill always be. And any me doing
anything different represents mestepping outside the identity of
who I actually am.
Yep. When in reality, we're allcreated for growth and to move
into new things. But again, thething that we're gonna step into
is how do you do that in a waythat's healthy versus unhealthy?
Ben Loy (16:07):
Yeah. Man, I think that example itself, like you talked
about his view of himself and, Imean, earlier I mentioned, like,
this being an integritydeficiency. Right? Like, the way
the facts of your life and whatis being externally projected
doesn't align with how you feelabout yourself. And so there's a
(16:29):
disconnect there.
And I think I think you'reright. Think the answer is,
like, reflecting on who are wecreated to be? Who like, who did
God create us to be? And throughthat, like, who is God and how
does that affect the way inwhich we interact with ourselves
and the world around us?
Alex Judd (16:46):
That's right. You know, it's so funny. The the
unique seat that we get on thebus, of being the facilitator of
a community of leaders. Right?One of the things that we've
done since we started thecompany was we now do them three
times a week, these office hourscalls that are community
coaching calls for leaders.
And what's interesting is, like,especially, at the beginning of
(17:09):
the company, like, was on all ofthose calls with all of those
leaders, and then I was alsotalking to a lot of them
individually. And what was socool is so many of them
individually would articulate tome like, man, those calls are so
valuable. I'm so grateful forthose calls. And then, like,
every single one of themindividually would say the same
thing to me. They would all say,like, everyone on those calls is
(17:29):
just so smart, and I just don'tfeel qualified to be on the go.
And it's like and and they wouldmention specific people who are
so smart. I'd be like, they saidthe exact same thing about you
to me. Like, literally, this isa call of 10 people, and no one
out of the 10 people feelsqualified to be on this call.
We're just like, so who'squalified to be on this call?
And it, again, just highlightsfor me, it opened my eyes to how
(17:51):
irrational this can be.
And irrationality is an unwiseleadership practice. And so that
kinda gets us into the finalkinda fundamental base level
question. Why is this topic socritical for anyone with
leadership responsibility fromyour perspective?
Ben Loy (18:07):
A verse came to mind when I was thinking about this
topic, and just the thought ofintegrity and wholeness and
alignment in your thinking andthe world around you. And it was
James one five through eight. Itsays, now if any of you lacks
wisdom, he should ask God whogives to who gives to all
generously and ungrudgingly, andit will be given to him. But let
(18:29):
him ask in faith withoutdoubting, for the doubter is
like the surging sea, driven andtossed by the wind. That person
should not expect to receiveanything from the Lord, being
double minded and unstable inhis ways.
And I think the big thing as towhy it's important for leaders
is that, like, being doubleminded or not not being aligned
in who you are, where you'regoing, and just the purpose for
(18:54):
your life is gonna create a tonof instability in how you
navigate your personal life andalso, like, it's gonna have a
insurmountable effect on the waythat you lead and the impact
that you have on other people.Mhmm.
Alex Judd (19:09):
I think that's so well said. And, I mean, I think
it's literally later in thatchapter that he says, like, but
be doers of the word and nothearers only, which I also think
is, like, an impostor syndrome.Like, I think you will, and I
would even say you shouldexperience impostor syndrome if
there's things that you hold upas ideals and standards that
you're not doing. Right? And soin some ways, it's like, to
(19:32):
engage in this with a healthyway, we we better also monitor
ourselves, which just like, am Iliving in alignment with with
with the standards that Isupposedly hold?
For whether it's leadership ormy faith or things like that.
Maybe from a different vein, I Ithink it's really critical for
leaders because what do wealways say leadership is?
Leadership is helping people gofrom here to there. And that
(19:54):
means as a leader, part of yourresponsibility is to lead others
in the taking of new territory.You are you you are charged with
the opportunity, but also theresponsibility of stepping into
things that are new, that aredifferent, that are creative,
that are chaotic, that areunknown, and kind of, you know,
bushwhacking and figuring outthe path where one does not
(20:17):
currently exist.
And I have never once in my lifeindividually or in my leadership
gone further than I've ever goneand and ever felt fully
confident that this is where Iwas supposed to be. Yeah. I've
never felt that way. Right? Yep.
I I don't know if you've everseen, there's that meme of the
Lord of the Rings. There's athere's a have you seen the Lord
of the Rings?
Ben Loy (20:37):
Yes.
Alex Judd (20:37):
Okay. I was like, oh, we needed to pause right now and
go watch that movie, for yourspiritual growth. Yeah. So so in
the fellowship at the ring,like, Sam pauses at one moment,
and Frodo, like, looks back, andhe's like, like, why have you
stopped? What's going on?
And he goes, if I take one morestep, it will be the furthest
that I've ever been. And,there's there's memes that
(21:00):
basically suggest that everystep he takes from that moment,
he says the same thing. He mightjust feel like because it's
like, that's never not true onceyou go past the furthest you've
ever been. Yeah. And that's whatleadership feels like.
Right? And so I think it'sreasonable to say if you are
leading, you're taking newterritory. And if you're taking
new territory, then you shouldanticipate there will be times
(21:22):
where you question whether ornot you are supposed to be where
you are, and the way you respondto that is critically important.
Ben Loy (21:29):
What is the difference between healthy growth and
(22:35):
pushing yourself beyond yourcomfort zone and proving
yourself or or operating from aposition of impostor syndrome
where you're you're just tryingto catch up to or, perform in a
way.
Alex Judd (22:49):
So now it feels like we're getting into the
exploration of this topic. Yeah.As I was kind of thinking about
it, I what I feel like is, like,what what responses to the
feeling of, like, I'm notsupposed to be there. I'm not
qualified for this. In someways, like, the fact that I have
the role of CEO isn't correcteven though I'm playing that
role.
Right? Like, what are theresponses to those that are
(23:12):
healthy? Well, I I think that,the response to that that is
healthy is always gonna begrounded and anchored in truth,
and and, that could be facts.Like, what Dave did for me is he
literally said, like, there arefacts that you are not paying
attention to. And, like, youknow, the facts will help tell
(23:32):
the story, or that can begrounded and anchored in
spiritual truth, I think.
And and I I spent some timewriting down some spiritual
truths, but before we get tothose, I'd love to hear your
thoughts on this too. But insome ways, impostor syndrome is
a feeling, and the minute youfollow your feelings, well,
that's probably unhealthy. Weshould say, how does this
(23:55):
feeling align with the facts? Ithink is the the primary thing
that we have to do todiscriminate between healthy and
unhealthy. Mhmm.
Ben Loy (24:03):
I would just agree.
Alex Judd (24:06):
Love it when people say echo chamber here.
Ben Loy (24:08):
But I think, yeah, I think, I think the, the
existence of imposter syndromeis evidence that your feelings
do not align with, what God saysabout you, what God says about
Himself and the world, and thenalso just the straight up facts
of your life.
Alex Judd (24:25):
And so unhealthy as it relates to impostor syndrome.
So if I'm feeling like, hey, Ican't be doing this. I'm not
enough to be doing this. Like,who am I to be to be to
experience this success or tohave this freedom or things like
that? What is unhealthy responseto those feelings?
I think it's it's untruth iswhat I wrote down. And the
(24:45):
reason why I wrote untruth isbecause a lot of times to me, it
feels a lot more subversive thanjust lies. Right? A lot I the
language that I feel is, like,lies are just bold on their
face, not true. Untruth is this,like, it might have a glimmer of
truth to it, but there'ssomething that's off.
There's something that's notcorrect. And so it could be
three things, I think. Numberone is not acknowledging facts
(25:10):
and, perpetuating feelings offraudulence. So you're saying
like, man, I can't be the CEO ofthis company. Well, you are.
Mhmm. And you have been for thepast two years, and the company
has even grown for the past twoyears. So who's to say you can't
be? Like, that's actually notfactually true. And the more you
tell yourself that, the moreyou're perpetuating that.
(25:31):
Mhmm. Right? Or, like, I can'tgo for a run at 2PM, right, and
take off work. Right? It's like,well, you can.
That's literally not true thatyou can't. And not only can you,
you have. And when you have, thebusiness hasn't fallen apart.
So, again, it's when we start tonot acknowledge or even deny
(25:52):
factual evidence and and retellourselves the story. And and,
you know, I am so far from aneuroscientist.
It's not even funny. But what Iknow to be true is
neuroplasticity neuroplasticityis a thing. Yeah. And the more
we repeat thoughts and andnarratives to ourself, the
easier it is for us to go tothat neural pathway. And that's
(26:13):
where we start to write newfacts for ourselves that are
literally not true.
Ben Loy (26:17):
Yeah. Well, I mean, cognitive behavioral therapy,
which is one of the mosteffective if not, I mean, it
might be the most effective talktherapy, like most studied, most
proven, and a step in cognitivebehavioral therapy is, thinking
errors. Being able to identifythinking errors in your
thinking, where they come from,and then how that affects your,
(26:42):
like, view of yourselfconsistently. And so obviously
the end result of CBT or thegoal is to to correct those
thinking errors in a way thataffects your your view of
yourself. Yeah.
So
Alex Judd (26:54):
I mean, that that is, not dissimilar from the reason
why one of our five coachingqualities that we train all of
our coaches on is curiosity. Andone of the questions that I find
myself asking a lot is, is thattrue? Like, is just literally
repeating back to someone, whatthey say and asking them, is
(27:16):
that true? Because what I oftensee, especially with leader
types, type a, driven,ambitious, they say, I never, I
can't, I won't, I'm not able to.And is is, I mean, such a gift
to be able to reflect that backto them and be like, you said
you've never.
You said you've never been ableto effectively manage someone
over time. Is that true? Andthen they'll, like, start back
(27:40):
at like, well, that's not fullytrue. And you start to see their
entire disposition changebecause it's like, if that is
true, man, this is gonna suckfor you. But the minute you
realize like, oh, that thatgeneralization that I've been
telling myself is not at alltrue, it's wild how your entire
outlook changes.
Yeah. And so the first one thatI first example of untruth that
(28:01):
I gave was not acknowledgingfacts and therefore perpetuating
feelings of fraudulence. Numbertwo is operating from a posture
of self sufficiency and totaladequacy. So this is this is the
the other end of the spectrumwhere you say, man, I feel like
a fraud. And so what you do isyou say, I feel like I'm not
enough.
That's not true.
Ben Loy (28:21):
I am
Alex Judd (28:22):
enough. I just need to stand in front of the mirror
for ten minutes every singlemorning and tell myself, I'm a
$5,000,000 CEO of a business. Iam amazing. The world just
hasn't recognized it yet. Justeveryone just needs to see it.
And it I mean, there are I mean,I I feel like I'm saying this in
a joking way. This is, like,very seriously what people are
(28:42):
recommending people do right
Ben Loy (28:44):
big, healthy dose of toxic positivity.
Alex Judd (28:47):
Yeah. And self talk. Right? And and, so positive
psychology was, I believe it wasreally, really popularized in
the seventies and eighties, andit was a whole vein of
psychology. Right?
Obviously, I believe in thepower of positive thinking, but
it can get taken too far. Mhmm.And it did get taken too far.
And one of the lies associatedwith the positive psychology
(29:10):
movement was it literallyadvised therapists to allow
people to live with the lie andlet the lie be their umbrella.
Yeah.
Right? So it's like, literallyhold the lie over you, and that
will shelter you from life'sstorms. And it's like, well,
eventually, a hurricane willcome, and your umbrella is not
gonna work very well in ahurricane. The truth always
(29:31):
catches up to you. And so theidea that we need to actively
deny these feelings when some ofthem could be true, like some of
them could be like, wow, I amnot equipped to do this.
Like, in some ways, I told ourteam recently, like, we are on
track to being a $2,000,000company. Praise god. That's
amazing. Right? I I have neverrun a $2,000,000 company before.
(29:53):
Right? I have not. And somehow,I look up, and it's like, that's
what I'm charged with right now.You better believe there's
feelings of inadequacy, and someof those need to be rooted out
because they're not factual.Some of those are probably true.
Like, I probably need to getbetter in some things as a
leader, as a as a business mind,as a a person that's able to
(30:14):
manage family and business atthe same time. Right? There's
probably some areas where I I aminadequate to the task, but the
good news is is I'm not a fixedperson. I can grow. Yeah.
But to deny those things isactually gonna be the thing that
keeps me in a fixed spot, think.
Ben Loy (30:28):
Yeah. Well, because if if impostor syndrome is being
being disconnected your feelingsare disconnected from reality,
like, the flip side of that,having having a ton of of
positivity that isn'tnecessarily still aligned with
reality, like, this the issuestill exists there. It hasn't
been solved.
Alex Judd (30:46):
That's right. Yes. Exactly. And and so then the
final one that I would say isyou're you're not acknowledging
spiritual truths that enable youto do new things by faith. So
you could say, you're notacknowledging the facts, or you
could say you are completely,denying facts that suggest that
there is some inadequacy.
(31:08):
Or you're saying, hey. I'minadequate, and you do
acknowledge that. I'm inadequateto the task at hand, but you're
not looking at the spiritualtruths that challenge us to walk
by faith and suggest that faithis, you know, the assurance of
things hoped for and theevidence of things not seen. And
and our faith tells us, like,there are spiritual truths that
(31:28):
say, you can do things that youhave not done before. Mhmm.
And in some ways, that is a coretheme of the entire bible is
people stepping into newterritory by faith before they
knew what the result was goingto be and trusting that the
result wasn't all on them. Yeah.But when we deny those spiritual
realities, and I I have a listof them that I'd like for us to
(31:50):
walk through, but when we denythose spiritual realities, we
are perpetuating unhealthyuntruth in our lives.
Ben Loy (31:57):
Yeah. I mean, you want evidence in the Bible, just pick
up Hebrews 11.
Alex Judd (32:00):
Just read Yeah. Just The hall of faith is what you're
referring to.
Ben Loy (32:03):
I mean, just, like, all of those people, when you go
back and you read the stories,had some pretty pretty big
shortcomings. And regardless,like, God called them into into
mission, into purpose, intofulfillment.
Alex Judd (32:17):
And, I mean, let's think about, like, a primary
one, Moses. Mhmm. Right? Godspeaks to Moses through the
burning bush, and, one of Moses'first responses is basically
like, you've got the wrong guy.Yeah.
Like, you clearly don't know me.I'm not eloquent in words. I
have a checkered past to say theleast. Like, I don't think I'm
(32:40):
your guy. And God's response tothat is anger, which is
interesting because I think ithits on what you said is it's
like Moses is literally makingit about himself, and God is
saying, like, you think this isabout you?
Like, I'm not making like, I'mtelling you I'm going to do
this, and I've chosen to useyou. And I'm not, quite frankly,
(33:01):
not asking you about youropinion of your qualifications
in some ways.
Ben Loy (33:06):
Yeah. I mean, it is. It's a subversive form of pride.
Alex Judd (33:09):
Yeah. Right? Yeah. Which and you could look at it
and be like, oh, I'm notqualified to do that. I can't be
used by God in that way.
We could we could literally lookat that and slap the tag of
humility on that. But when youactually, I mean, when you
actually think about it, it'slike he is way, way, way giving
him himself, disproportionalinfluence over outcomes and not
(33:32):
at all trusting in God's actualsovereignty over outcomes. So
the spiritual truths that Ithink we have to be anchored in
to handle this in a healthy way,we just talked about one. God
does not call the qualified. Hequalifies the called.
Right? The the I mean, outsideof Jesus, I can't think of a
single person that, like, in theBible that it's like, oh, man.
(33:54):
They had their act together, andthat's why god picked them.
Like, nope. Not at all.
God gives and god takes away.Right? So, again, I think this
is a, diversion, or this iswhere I think spiritual truth
can deviate from pop culture'sconception of impostor syndrome
(34:15):
is I think pop culture'sinterpretation of impostor
syndrome and how to respond toit is, like, you call your
successes luck. Those aren'tluck. You created those.
That was all you. And I thinkspiritual truth suggests that
it's like, it it was not luck,but it also was not all you. You
you were the vessel that Godchose to participate in the
(34:38):
process, but God did the thing.God gives the blessing, and he
takes it away. Few more.
God's power and strength aremagnified in our weakness is a
spiritual truth that we shouldremember that. So that's why
it's so crucial that we don'tdeny our weakness. And then
another one that I think isworth hitting on is that God
accomplishes his ends in andthrough people. And that is just
(35:01):
true. Right?
Like, if you read the Bible,it's like it's very rarely, if
ever, God choosing to do thingsin the world divorced from any
human involvement at all. It'salways in and through people.
And so he's going to choose touse someone, and it's like, if
he's gonna use someone, whycouldn't that person be you in
certain situations? Mhmm. Andthen finally, true confidence is
(35:24):
not rooted in human ability orachievement, but in God's
sovereignty, which I think wecould talk more about that
because I think we're reallydiscussing confidence here and
where true confidence comesfrom.
But, yeah, are there any otherspiritual truths that you think
people need to be grounded in,or any thoughts that you have on
those ones that I just shared?
Ben Loy (35:42):
I think you covered a lot of them. I one of the ones
that stuck out to me, the lastone and then also, related to
people, like, as pop culture'sposture being like, oh, you
created this, like, you causedthis, this was the work that
that you put in. The realitythat we can till the soil, but,
like, God provides the rain.Right? And and God is the one
(36:05):
who's actually going to He hecreated a world in which when we
work, growth can happen.
But, like, there's a huge dividebetween what the world says the
solution to impostor syndromewould be there and what
scripture says.
Alex Judd (36:22):
Yeah. I actually heard a quote. Gosh, it was this
past week that was from an oldermissionary, and the book, it was
John Piper's desiring god, wastalking about how lots of times
people deeply mischaracterizethis quote. And the quote is
expect great things from God,attempt great things for God.
(36:44):
And the idea is how would youlive if you actually believed
that the god of the entireuniverse who's sovereignly in
control of everything loved you,cared for you, knew what was
best for you, and was activelyworking to see it come to pass?
(37:07):
Like, how would you live if youknew that was true? You should
expect God to do great thingsbecause that is in the character
of who he is. And then attemptgreat things for God. A lot of
what people distort that into isI'm gonna go independently do
great things for God. What thiswas actually saying is put
yourself in positions andsituations proactively where you
(37:29):
can't do anything but lean onhim, where you know just how
much you need him because onyour own power, this is
absolutely not possible.
And I thought that was such agood leadership statement of
like, man, we we live in such atime where we're, you know,
challenged to grow, moveforward, take risk. But in some
ways, it's like we're challengedto do that on our own power. And
(37:50):
what this is saying is, like,that's a failing, worthless
strategy is do things that youcan't do on your own power to
such a degree that you have tolean and depend on God.
Ben Loy (38:00):
I mean, that really just goes back on the idea of
pride. Right? Like, having ahaving a right view of who God
is and and how he works and howhe created the world to be is
gonna, like, correct everythingelse if if you do, if you have a
good if you have a right view ofwho God is.
Alex Judd (38:17):
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And I think that, one of the
other stories that I think of,because we're now talking about
confidence, I I think one of thebest displays of confidence in
the Old Testament is Davidstepping up to take on Goliath.
And David walked forward.
In in some ways, if anyone,like, could have experienced
(38:38):
some serious impostor syndrome,like, I shouldn't be here. How,
like, how can I be doing this?How am I the person that's been
given this responsibility? Like,I would think that he was the
guy, but he what he experiencesis actually the opposite of
that. Like, he runs to the line,right, towards Goliath and,
like, literally yells him down.
(38:58):
So in some ways, we could lookat this and be like, well, is
that literally the toxicpositivity that we're advising
people against? But if weactually read the passage, we
actually did a whole podcast on,like, David versus Goliath as a
display of healthy confidence. Ithink what we actually see is
his confidence is not inhimself. Like, the reason why
he's able to run to the line isbecause, like, he's like, you
(39:22):
have not insulted me. You havenot even insulted the Hebrew
nation.
You have insulted the God ofheaven and earth, and he's gonna
give me your head is what hesays. And so it's like, he's
literally saying, this isn'tabout me. You think it's me
standing against you right now?That's not who you're fighting
right now. And I get why youwould be laughing if you're
fighting me, but you're notfighting me.
I'm just the vessel. And I thinkthat's the the posture that we
(39:45):
have to adopt if we want true,healthy, sustainable confidence
is is your confidence in yourabilities. If so, it's gonna
fail every single time. If yourconfidence is in the god that
you're serving, well, then Ithink you can literally run to
the battle line. I get preachyon that on that answer
Ben Loy (40:02):
a little bit. Run with
Alex Judd (40:02):
it. Yeah. Yeah. Was there another question that you
wanted to make sure we got ongot into on this topic?
Ben Loy (40:10):
I guess too, and and it's I guess it's shifting more
into the practical side ofthings.
Alex Judd (40:14):
Like,
Ben Loy (40:15):
how we've alluded a lot from, I think, a higher level
to, like, how do you solve forimpostor syndrome? Like, what
are I think there are practicalthings that you could start
doing, certainly, but I alsothink there is a there is a mind
shift that needs to happenbefore you even start taking
those actions.
Alex Judd (40:35):
Can you start with the mind shift? I'd like to hear
your thoughts.
Ben Loy (40:38):
Yeah. I mean, I think we've already alluded a lot to
it and talked about it. I think,I think really taking the time
to understand your place in inthis world and in life, through
the lens of of who is God andwho has He said He is, and then
(40:59):
what has He said about me andthe world around us, and and
actually, like, taking the timeto sit in that and reflect in it
and just study his word. Like, Ithink that one of the most some
of the most profound things, Ithink, in my own life growing
beyond impostor syndrome or inmoments where I've I've felt
(41:22):
like a fraud or, like, I had toprove myself or, like, I was
going to be found out that Iwasn't competent, the root of
that was, like, returning toJesus, returning to who he was,
and understanding that, like, weare we are vessels. Like, God is
the ultimate authority and inhis sovereignty, like, I can
(41:46):
take whatever actions I want,but, like, ultimately, I have
arrived in this position, I havearrived with this influence,
doing this job because Godallowed that to happen.
And so he wants me here for areason, and that reason is both
for my own personal developmentand sanctification and also for
(42:09):
the purpose of furthering thegospel.
Alex Judd (42:11):
Yeah. In that regard, it seems like there's a great
deal of overlap, basically, theway you think about and
understand identity. Mhmm. Ithink identity, we could look at
it through the lens of threequestions, like, who is God, who
am I, and who are others, asvery simple questions. And,
(42:32):
like, starting with the firstone, who is God?
We shared this principle at anexperience a while back, and it
was just so it was so powerfulfor me to reflect on this. Your
experience of God is alwaysgonna be dependent on your
concept of God. Right? And Ihave literally talked to people
(42:52):
before that say, man, I I reallystruggle to have a conversation,
like, with God in prayer justbecause, like, I I don't know
that I can trust her, like, aGod that is just, like, so
wrathful and so angry and, like,and it makes me feel shame for
doing things wrong. It's like, Idon't know that I could trust
that god either because I don'tthink that's god.
Right? And, like, I don't knowwhere you got your concept of
god, but I can tell you it's notthe bible. Right? And, like,
(43:14):
there's a great book calledgentle and lowly that really
characterizes the the thread ofwho god is throughout the
totality of scripture. And godis love.
Right? And what is love? SaintSaint Thomas Aquinas defined
love as to will the good of theother. So God is not just
actively willing the good of theother. It's who he is.
It is embedded in his being, andthat's what we've gotta
(43:36):
remember. And the minute we moreproperly understand who God is,
well, then we can go to thesecond question, which is who am
I? And there was a a while backwhere I I can't even remember
how I got into this, but it'slike, I I think that it was I
was probably struggling with alittle bit of attaching too much
of my identity to achievementsor to performance or things like
(43:58):
that. And especially starting asmall business, like,
performance is a roller coaster,and it's like, yeah, if you're
starting a small business, it'sa lot less stable than an
existing business. And if one ofthe things that will quickly
reveal is if you're attachingyour identity to your
performance because then youridentity is gonna look a lot
like your line graphs forbusiness, so that's rough.
(44:19):
Right? And so I think I hadspent some time being like, I
had diagnosed the problem, saidthis isn't okay, and literally
spent some time saying inprayer, like, who am I, like,
according to the bible? And,like, let's just get, like,
super simple. And I vividlyremember, like, praying about it
and, like, just coming to threeconclusions that were very
(44:40):
helpful because I think they didwhat you said, which is, like,
remind you of who you are inlight of who God is. It's like,
who am I?
I'm a son of God. Right? Who amI? I am a sinner. That is also
biblically true.
Right? So I'm a son of God. I'ma sinner. And then also, who am
I? I am someone he deemed worthsaving.
And then I was like, I don'tknow that I can think of a third
(45:01):
point, which is interesting.Like, if you're actually getting
to the core of who you are, Ithink a lot of the things that
we try to generate is that theexact peacocking like you're
talking about. Like, we generateall this accoutrement around us
that looks really good, and wetry to convince people this is
who I am. And in reality, if youwanna know who I am, I'm a son
of God. I'm a sinner, and I wassomeone he deemed worth saving.
(45:25):
But you wanna talk aboutsomething that dramatically
affects your leadership is ifyou actually internalize those
three identity statements. Ithas ramifications for everything
you do. You know?
Ben Loy (45:36):
I mean, we go to redemption in in our service
every week. Right? We do we doand there's a time for worship.
There's time for confession.There's a time for hearing from
the word, and then there's atime to take communion.
And, like, all of those thingswhen when you when you look at
the core of what they are, Ikind of identify those it's
(45:59):
those three categories.
Alex Judd (46:00):
Right? Like,
Ben Loy (46:00):
confession, like, I am I am a sinner in need of saving,
like, and then hearing from theword, like, who who does God say
He is and and where do we go forthat? Like, we we go to the
Bible. Mhmm. And then from that,we get to worship and partake in
communion, which is anexpression of of salvation and
(46:21):
being saved. Right?
And so just viewing it throughthat lens, like, it makes sense
that that would be an importantpart of a service or a liturgy
because that is that is how weare realigning ourselves on a
consistent basis with who whoGod says we are.
Alex Judd (46:37):
Yeah. And we which is so cool because I I think a lot
of the common talk aroundimpostor syndrome right now is
actually just shallow feelingmanagement. Mhmm. Like, it's
like, oh, that's how you feel.Let's get you to feel a
different different way.
But it's like, man, my myfeelings are so erratic and
unpredictable. It's not evenfunny. And so I think why what
(46:59):
we're talking about here is alot more sustainable is because
it it's it's saying we'reactually just gonna take
feelings out of the driver'sseat in totality. Like, we're
not gonna allow feelings to bethe thing that's driving the way
you act, think, and live. We'rewe're gonna put truth in the
driver's seat.
And so if we think about each ofthose things like son of god,
(47:21):
like, man, what does that imply?Or or daughter of god for that
matter. That means, like, youare someone that has absurd
creative potential. Right? Like,god is the god of creation, and
it's like he made you in his ownimage, And, like, you have the
ability to uncover the hiddenswaths of potential in all of
creation all around you.
But, also, what do you do foryour son or daughter? You
(47:43):
provide for them. So you arebecause you're a son or a
daughter, like, you are providedfor. That's part of your
identity. You're protected.
You're guided. You're lookedafter. Right? Like, that's part
of who you are. And I I thinkit's one of the reasons why as I
was kind of working on this, Iwas so excited about this
particular conversation forleaders is because it's like,
man, leaders feel this burden ofproviding for, protecting,
(48:07):
looking after so many people.
Like, you feel the burden ofthat. And I I think that is
being a good shepherd. Right?But, man, it sucks if that's
your job description, and youdon't feel like anyone is
shepherding you. Like, that isawful.
And what's so cool about this isif you have rooted your identity
in being a son or daughter ofGod, you're like, this is what I
get to do for others because Iknow. I don't think. I don't
(48:30):
feel. I know this is what isdone for me. And and then we can
go to, like, sinner.
It's like, well, now you have away to contextualize failure,
brokenness, mistakes, and thefact that you're fallen is it's
not this thing that you have tohide. It's not this thing that
that it makes you unable to dothings for God or for others.
(48:52):
It's just something that's partof the sinful nature of who you
are. And then that brings us tothe third one. You are worth
saving.
Right? Like, you are someonethat God said, I I love that
kiddo, and I'm I am going tosacrifice more than anything so
that they would know that theyare loved and they could live in
right standing with me. Andthat's how we get to live, and
that recontextualizes thatidentity statement of sinner as
(49:15):
well. And, oh my god. Like, theand I mean that literally.
Oh my god. Like, that changesthe way you lead when you lead
from that spot. But so let'stalk practically then. If that's
the identity we want to leadfrom, how do we make sure that's
where we're coming from fromyour like, what does that look
(49:37):
like practically?
Ben Loy (49:38):
I think so like like you said, surrounding yourself
with people who are are goingare in alignment with that, who
are going to who to point youthat direction, and letting them
in enough that they can pointyou that direction when it's
needed. Mhmm. I think often,community is more shallow than
(50:01):
we really want or or need it tobe because we're not willing to
let people in so they canactually shed light on how we're
oriented, how we're living ourlives, and and the decisions
we're making. So, I thinkcommunity is huge. I think I I
said this earlier, I mean, I'mgenuinely just sitting in the
word, like Yeah.
(50:21):
Not and not to, like, read, notto free the bible in a year or
or cover as much as the word aspossible, but just, like, like,
read the word and if somethinglatches onto you, stop. Like,
sit sit in it and and listen andand, like, mull over the
realities of what God's wordsays. Because I think that I
(50:43):
mean, the the word transforms,like, through the holy spirit,
like, the word will transformyou. Mhmm. Meditating on it day
and night.
Right? Third, there are, like,and this is I think this is an,
an effect of common grace, like,through through psychology and
through the world that we livein, like, are resources and
there are practices that you cando that when done consistently
(51:09):
help change and reorientyourself to both the way that
you see God and the way that yousee yourself. And practically, I
think one of the ones that wasmost impactful for me was
honestly super simple. And I wasseeing a therapist at the time
and she was like, I just wantyou to to keep a gratitude
journal. Like, every nightbefore you go to bed, write five
(51:29):
things down that you're you'regrateful for, big or small.
Mhmm. And, I mean, I did it formonths and I still do it. Like,
you talk about rewiring yourbrain, like, I'll do it in the
car when I'm driving. Like, I'lljust start thinking of things
I'm grateful for andgratefulness, when I'm
expressing that gratefulness toGod specifically, is an
(51:50):
incredible antidote to to pride,which is like, if pride says,
it's all on me, I haveaccomplished this, it also says
like, any failure, any doubt,any any feelings of inadequacy
are also a 100% result of me.And so just the simple practice
of practicing gratitude allowsyou to express that like, hey, I
(52:15):
have these things because Godallows me to have them and
because He has designed me inthis specific way that that has
given me these gifts or theseconnections or I live in this
specific area that I get toexperience these blessings and
these realities of the creationthat he of the world that he
created.
And, it just it does somethingto you when you when you do that
(52:37):
on a consistent basis.
Alex Judd (52:39):
Yeah. I I totally agree with you. I I think the
one that I would double click onthere is, the community piece is
because so much of impostorsyndrome can be that pattern of
feeling like, man, if they onlyknew. Mhmm. If they only knew.
And what's the single best wayto reinforce that line of
(53:01):
thinking is just don't letanyone know. And then you're
writing yourself a lie. Like, ifthey only knew what was true
about me, I couldn't lead thiscompany. I couldn't have this
family. I couldn't be thissuccessful.
If they only knew and then youkeep it a secret, so there's no
way for you to ever disprove.Like, you you're not inviting
(53:22):
other people in to disprove thatlie that you are telling
yourself or that untruth thatyou're telling yourself. And,
you know, discussion around sinand practicing confession in
your most intimaterelationships, which I'm I'm
thinking, like, your one to fivemost intimate relationships is
which I what I'll be teaching atthis upcoming experience. Like,
(53:43):
is there any undealt with hiddensin that you haven't received or
extended grace for. Mhmm.
And I think if the answer tothat is yes, not only will you
be experiencing impostorsyndrome, it might actually be a
flag that it's like, have somework to do in living in
integrity, go to go back to youroriginal definition. But what's
(54:04):
so powerful and cool is, like Imean, Aspen and I literally have
conversations that start with itfeels so formal, but it's like,
I have something that I want toconfess to you. And it's like,
oh, you know, like, that soundslike such a big word. Now it's
just very normalized to us.Right?
But it's like we we share that.And, you know, when you have a
(54:26):
relationship where the personlooks at you and that's like,
oh, and their reaction isn'tthat I have four eyes, or isn't
that like, well, you need toshut down Path for Growth
immediately. Right? But ratherthat, like, their reaction is
like, oh, man. I'm sorry thatyou're struggling with that.
And, like, know that I'm gonnapray for you. Know that this
doesn't change the fact that Ilove you and I forgive you. And
(54:47):
and then, you know, we make apractice practice of asking,
like, how can I help? Mhmm. Howcan I help in that?
What does that look like? And,oh my gosh. Then if you got
those people that help you,recontextualize the things in
your life that you are mostlikely to tell yourself lies
about, you you just I mean, youcan see why Paul was so bold and
(55:10):
so brash because he was livingwide, like, wide open. Right?
He's like, there's nothing aboutwhat I have done that y'all
don't know about, and therefore,like, I'm gonna move forward
because I've been saved bygrace, and now I get to go
extend that grace to otherpeople.
And and so it's why genuine,authentic, transparent,
(55:30):
vulnerable community is so it'sso critically important for
leaders in particular. Is thereanything else you wanna make
sure we talk about in thisconversation?
Ben Loy (55:40):
No. I mean, I think, we're out of time, so that's
part of it. But I think that's agreat note to end on.
Alex Judd (55:46):
Cool. Thanks, Ben. Thank you. Well, there you have
it. Thanks so much for joiningus for this episode.
If you want any of theinformation or resources that we
mentioned, that's all in theshow notes. Hey, before you go,
could I ask you for one quickfavor? Could you subscribe,
rate, and review this podcastepisode? Your feedback is what
(56:07):
helps our team engage in asequence of never ending
improvement. We wanna amplifywhat's valuable to you and
obviously reduce or even removethe things that aren't.
Also, you leaving a positivereview is what helps us connect
with, build trust with, andserve other leaders around the
country. So thanks in advancefor helping us out on that
front. Are you a leader thatwants to grow your business in a
(56:29):
healthy way, serve peopleexceptionally well, and glorify
God in the process? Go topathforgrowth.com to get more
information about our communityof impact driven leaders and
schedule a call with our team.Hey, thank you so much to the
Path for Growth team, KyleCummings and the crew at Pod
Circle, and the remarkableleaders that are actively
(56:51):
engaged in the Path for Growthcommunity.
Y'all are the people that makethis possible. Y'all know this.
We're rooting for you. We'repraying for you. We wanna see
you win.
Remember, my strength is not forme. Your strength is not for
you. Our strength is forservice. Let's go. Let's go.
Let's go.
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