September 30, 2025 • 53 mins
What can the book of Proverbs teach us today about leadership, hard work, and vulnerability? In this episode, Alex and Ben dive back into the proverbs, picking out 3 verses for discussion and reflection and sharing why those teachings have resonated so deeply with them. They also discuss the broader application of these verses for leaders and business owners and explore what they can teach us about healthy growth.
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Episode Recap:
- This week, we’re going back to exploring the Proverbs (0:00)
- Proverbs 14:4 - More abundance will mean more responsibility (and more mess) (1:25)
- Proverbs 14:23 - Hard work done well will lead to profit (15:18)
- Proverbs 18:1 - Isolation is rebellion, and invulnerability is selfish (34:53)
- You can try to avoid wisdom, but it will always catch up to you (44:21)
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Resources:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Judd (00:02):
Okay, so the purpose of these exploration episodes is
for us to choose a topic and notclaim to be an expert on that
topic, but rather to say, ma'am,we're gonna get an hour further
on this topic of discussion,maybe and hopefully get a little
bit more understanding, get alittle bit wiser on the thing
that we feel like is valuablefor leaders regardless of the
(00:25):
stage or space that they leadin. And we've actually done one
of these episodes before, and itwas so cool to see the feedback
on it. And I think you and I gota lot of value from it, and we
also heard people talking aboutit after the fact. So we said,
man, let's do that again. Andthat's really just extracting a
few proverbs from the book ofProverbs and saying we're gonna
(00:45):
treat these as hard candy,wisdom hard candy that, man,
hard candy, if you try to crunchon it, what Tim Keller says is
you're gonna break a toothprobably.
However, if you suck on it, ifyou allow the wisdom to come out
of it, oftentimes it can changeyour paradigm for looking at
life, leadership, business,following Jesus altogether. And
so that's really the goal ofthis episode is we each chose
(01:07):
three. We'll see if we get toall six or not. And we're just
gonna park on these and havegenuine discussion about
questions that we'relegitimately interested in with
regard to these statements abouthow life, how the world works.
And so with that, how about youstart with number one?
What's the first one you chose?
Ben Loy (01:25):
Cool. So the first one I had was Proverbs fourteen
four, where there are no oxen,the feeding trough is empty, but
an abundant harvest comesthrough the strength of an ox.
Alex Judd (01:36):
So obviously, this is a conversation about animals is
what we're
Ben Loy (01:39):
about Yeah. Talk
Alex Judd (01:41):
Yeah. Animal hygiene, things
Ben Loy (01:42):
like that. Definitely. No, I think the thing that
stands out to me the most withthis, and I think this really
weighs into one of our corevalues of strength is for
service, is that the the oxen'swork not only feeds themselves,
but it feeds those around them,right? With, if there are no
(02:04):
oxen, the feeding trough isempty. So not only is there no
food for the village or, youknow, whatever particular
setting this is this is writtenin, but there's also no food for
themselves.
And so just that idea ofoperating out of abundance,
operating from strength andusing that strength to not only
serve yourself but serve othersis really impactful.
Alex Judd (02:25):
Mhmm. Yeah. And so in some ways, it's a, like, should
motivate abundance in some ways.Is that what you're saying
there?
Ben Loy (02:32):
I think so. Or having the the posture of if you're
working to serve others orworking to feed others, I think
intuitively, like, you will endup feeding yourself Mhmm. In in
the process.
Alex Judd (02:45):
What do you make of where there are no oxen, the
manger is clean? Like, first ofall, is that what your
translation says?
Ben Loy (02:52):
Or well, mine's CSV. So it says where there are no oxen,
the feeding trough is empty. SoI mean the same thing, manger
feeding trough.
Alex Judd (02:59):
I I was just ask asking what do you make of that?
Because for me, it doesn't sayempty. It says clean, which is
interesting because, you know,it might not actually mean this,
but but when I think of likeit's clean, it's like, you know,
what's a life without anyproblems? It's like you don't
have anyone working for you,anything doing anything, right?
When you have nothing, there'sno problem.
It's all clean, but you don'thave anything. Right? And and in
(03:22):
some ways, it's like if we usethat translation, right, which
this is ESV, it's like theminute you start to bring on
resources or workers or thingslike that, things start to get a
little bit more messy. Mhmm. Andand maybe it's, in some ways,
setting expectations for that.
Ben Loy (03:38):
Yeah. I guess in the context of growing, how do you
think that this proverb speaksto scaling impact?
Alex Judd (03:46):
Well, it's interesting. I'm reading right
now. I pulled up. It'sEllicott's commentary for
English readers So is what thisthey focus on where no oxen are,
the crib is clean, a proverbwhich may be taken in various
ways. Some have seen it as anexhortation to kindness towards
animals in consideration oftheir great use Alright.
(04:06):
So literal interpretation. Imean, it's actually pretty
amazing. Like, there's otherproverbs too that highlight the
importance of taking care ofyour beast. Right? Like, don't
hurt the thing that is actuallyhelping you.
Ben Loy (04:17):
And Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Alex Judd (04:19):
Exactly. And that principle transcends, you know,
whether or not you own oxen ornot. Right? Others interpret it
as the idea that labor has adisagreeable aspect but also
brings its reward, whethermaterial prosperity or more
enduring reward. So I think whatthat's highlighting is almost
like the more you have, the moreproblems you have as well.
(04:41):
And if you're gonna, you know,grow in your career right? Why
do leaders get paid more on anorg chart? Because they have
bigger problems to deal with.Right? And the minute you get
rid of all the problems, youactually get rid of all the work
as well.
And so I think that that is apiece of wisdom that could be
drawn out of this is like, youdon't get to say, man, I just
want a lot of oxen, but I don'twant any mess. It's like, if
(05:03):
you're asking for oxen, you'reasking for a mess Yeah. And the
two go hand in hand.
Ben Loy (05:08):
With that, the the idea that, like, if there are more
oxen, the harvest will be alsomore abundant, but there'll also
be a greater mess involved.Right?
Alex Judd (05:18):
Yeah. That's right. And and the two go hand in hand,
like, abundance, more mess Mhmm.In some ways.
Ben Loy (05:25):
Mo money, mo problems.
Alex Judd (05:26):
I mean, yeah, that's actually the the Ben Lloyd
translation of of Proverbsfourteen four.
Ben Loy (05:33):
Yeah. I guess, is this proverb alluding to problems,
though? Like, what is what'sbeing said in this proverb that
spins in that direction? Becausethe second line says an abundant
harvest comes through thestrength of an ox.
Alex Judd (05:45):
I guess the way I take that is you have these
resources that have been givento you to generate more
resource. Mhmm. And, like, thatis their gift. And in some ways,
one of the implications of thefirst verse is that, like, but
with that gift that you've beengiven comes responsibility and
(06:08):
stewardship. And so a mess initself might not be a horrible
issue.
A mess that no one takesresponsibility for is probably a
tremendous issue. And so in someways, if I'm taking on more
oxen, I'm going to create moremess, which means I need to have
(06:29):
more systems to properly stewardand clean and maintain that
which I've been given. And sothere's an embedded principle in
here that we used to say a lot,and we still do say quite a lot
with our coaching clients. Zachon our team kinda popularized
this in the Path for Growthcommunity. It's everything
requires maintenance.
And so a lot of times we see theoxen and we're like, I want
(06:52):
that! Give me a bunch of oxen!Because we see we don't even see
really the oxen, we see theharvest. We say, I want that.
Okay, well that harvest requiresoxen and those oxen require
maintenance.
Mhmm. And the reason why theyrequire maintenance is because
they create a mess. Right? Andso let's make the parallel very
clear. So we see the harvest.
(07:14):
We see business owners takingbig, like, owners distributions
from their business because theyonly the business has an asset.
They've got a team that is hyperengaged. Right? They they have a
high degree of freedom in theirschedule. Right?
This is all the harvest ofowning a business. What what do
they not see? They don't see allthe behind the scenes work that
(07:35):
goes into creating thoseresults. Right? The systems, the
tough conversations, the thenights spent by yourself where
you're laying out the plan forthat business.
Right? That's the oxen in someways. And then we don't also
see, man, anytime you have agroup of people that is working
on anything, there will alwaysbe challenges, disagreements,
(07:56):
conflict, and whose job is it todeal with that, to scoop in and
help at least mediate that,that's gonna be the leader's
job. And so we've had thisconversation before, but if you
want the harvest without thehassle, maybe would be the,
like, evangelical, preacher'sway of putting it. Like, you
can't have the harvest withoutthe hassle is what I would say.
Ben Loy (08:17):
Yeah. The other thought too that comes to mind on that,
(10:01):
and, like, rebuke me if this istaking it farther than than
maybe in this context, theproverb is intended. But, like,
the strength of an ox, you know,an abundant harvest comes
through the strength of an ox.An empty feeding trough implies
that, like, not only do oxrequire maintenance, but they
require maintenance to behealthy. And, like, if if your
(10:23):
team or the the things withinyour business that require
maintenance aren't healthy,you're not gonna have an
abundant harvest.
Right? Operating from a positionof strength by using your
resources well to not only growbut to feed and and take care of
the things that are under yourstewardship.
Alex Judd (10:43):
Yeah. No rebuke for me. Cool. Yeah. And I'm sure if
someone out there has a rebukefor us, they'll let us know.
But the term that comes to mindfor me is you're saying that is
a reinvestment. Right? I'm gonnafeed all these ox, make them
really strong because when Ifeed them, they're gonna
generate a harvest. And then I'mgonna take all that harvest and
hoard it to myself. You fool.
(11:04):
Right? Like, I'm gonna feed allthese oxen. They're gonna be
really strong, they're gonnagenerate a harvest, and then
some of that harvest is gonna beset aside so that we can
purchase more food for the oxento make them more strong. It's
so interesting. We, he'sactually speaking at our
upcoming experience in Austin.
His name is JP Krueger. He'sjust a business leader and
(11:26):
business owner in Austin that Iso deeply respect. He he is
truly one of the most pragmaticpeople I've ever met and just a
deeply practical leader. Sothat's what his talk is gonna be
focused on. But his companygives away 33% of profit every
year to causes not related tothe company.
That's wild. So it's 33% ofprofit dedicated strictly to
(11:49):
generosity, and they give itaway. And, you know, you talk to
him. Again, he's a pragmatist.And you talk to him and he's
like, well, I just read it as,like, that's the one place where
God says test me and see if Iwon't open.
He's like, so I just figured Ishould probably do that. He
said, and so we started at 10%,and we knocked it up to 12, then
we knocked it up to 15, and wekept testing, and he kept
giving. And what's crazy, one ofthe things he's gonna show at
(12:11):
the experience is that lots ofpeople use this term very
liberally to not describe what'sactually going on. This is
absolutely what has gone on atJP's company, hockey stick
growth. And, like, he's gonnashow the graph.
It's absurd, the amount ofgrowth they've experienced,
which I would say is probablyrelated. Right? But what's
(12:31):
interesting is he said theyparked at 33%. And the reason
why they parked at 33%, he said,there's a practical reason.
Again, practically, he said,because the team got tired of
updating the website every timeto say, like, we give away 20%.
We give away 23%. Like, he said,so we said it would be good to
have a static number for all ofour marketing material that we
(12:51):
share that with. But then hesaid, number two is he said,
that was the portion that wehave found practically. We could
continue to make the whole piebigger. But he said, we started
to fear that if we do any morethan that, you're now actually
shrinking the size of the piebecause you're not able to
reinvest into the oxen,essentially.
And so he gives very generouslyand reinvest into his business
(13:15):
by reinvesting really into histeam, and that makes the pie
bigger. So that means 33% yearover year is growing and growing
and growing. But, you know, itwould be really actually foolish
to say we're gonna up that to50% and to have a team that's,
like, you know, maybe notexperiencing the flourishing of
(13:37):
the business in the way thattheir family is growing
financially because you'reessentially killing the oxen
that are creating the harvest.Yeah. Can you draw it a little
bit more?
So you said you connected tostrength is for service. Like,
how do you connect it to thatvalue?
Ben Loy (13:53):
I think, I mean, I think the second statement
really drives it home for me,but an abundant harvest comes
through the strength of an ox.And so if there are no oxen or
the oxen are weak, the feedingtrough is going to be empty. So
not only are the people notgetting fed at that point, but
so are the oxen. Just the ideathat feed comes from a crop,
(14:17):
which to be grown and tilled andthen, like, harvested in
requires oxen. So literally,like, it requires that oxen
exist and that they're alreadyhave strength to then not only
feed themselves to remainstrong, but then from there to
(14:39):
create abundance for who they'reserving and and what their
purpose is.
Right?
Alex Judd (14:44):
Mhmm. It was at our most recent in person experience
that Mike Valatin, who's just atremendous mentor of mine, he
said leaders often go astraywhen they don't identify who
their key stakeholders are. Andwe've identified one group of
key stakeholders, which is ourteam members. But there's also
partners, there's alsoinvestors, and then there's also
(15:06):
customers. Those are all keystakeholders.
And then you can think aboutyour life as a leader, like your
spouse is a key stakeholder. Andprobably have other key
stakeholders as well. And insome ways, I wouldn't tell them
this to their face, but thosepeople are oxen. Right? Like, in
in the context of what we'retalking about here.
Right? Like, those people arethe things that make this thing
(15:27):
run is what we're essentiallysaying. And I would say you
should tell them that. Right?Tell them, like, this thing
doesn't exist with you.
This thing doesn't happenwithout you. And so it's
actually really helpful to askthe question as a leader, who
are my key stakeholders in thisseason that I need to be
attending to? Right? And I wouldmake a list of them and then
ask, like, what is theequivalent of feed for those
(15:48):
people? Because those people arethe reason why we're
experiencing a harvest if we'regenerating a harvest right
Ben Loy (15:53):
now.
Alex Judd (15:54):
What does it look like for me to feed those
people? And we've talked a lotabout, you know, financially in
one of the examples that we use.We have to make sure that
they're financially winning ifthe company is winning. But
also, that's treasure, talentand time. How can you use your
gifts to serve those people?
How can you use your time? Ithink that's something that I
(16:14):
would really encourage leaderson is sometimes the best gift
that you could give one of thosekey stakeholders, maybe it's a
customer, maybe it's a partner,maybe it's an investor, maybe
it's a team member, right? Isnot more money. Maybe what you
could give them is more time. Ifyou just spend some quality time
with them, they would, like, beso excited to go bring in a huge
(16:37):
heart or help you bring in ahuge harvest.
And so just thinking about howwe're taking care of the things
that God has blessed us with.Yeah. Is there anything else on
that proverb you'd like to getinto before we go to the next
one?
Ben Loy (16:50):
I don't think so. I'd love to hear what your first one
was.
Alex Judd (16:52):
Well, I'm gonna actually go out of order because
I also had one in Proverbs 14.So let's do Proverbs fourteen
twenty three. I'll read mytranslation, and then I'd like
to hear yours as well. Proverbsfourteen twenty three in the ESV
says, in all toil, there isprofit, but mere talk tends only
(17:13):
to poverty. So in all toil,that's essentially in all work
is how I read that, there'sprofit.
And then, you know, in all talk,like or if you only talk, if
that's where you stop, it tendsonly to poverty. The thing that
stands out to me about that isall toil, there is profit. Mhmm.
(17:34):
Like, there is not a singlepiece of work in the context of
this proverb that if you do itand you do it well, it doesn't
lead to profit in some ways. AndI think the bible becomes way
more fun if you actually startto trust that it's true.
Because if you read that andyou're like, what if I actually
choose to believe this is true?It it changes the way you
(17:57):
literally do everything. Yeah.You know? So I'd love to know
your initial takeaway from thatverse.
Ben Loy (18:02):
Well, I have circled this verse in my bible, so at
least we're on the same page.Good. That mine reads, there is
profit in all hard work, butendless talk leads only to
poverty. Mhmm. So I guess theidea and the difference there
being toil isn't just work, butit's it implies hard work and,
like, hard labor.
I was actually just recentlyspeaking with a friend who has
(18:24):
made some pretty big decisionswhen it comes to his career and
just pivoting the direction inwhich he sees that going and
making some steps. And he insubmitting his two week notice
to his current employer, all ofthese people came to him and
they're like, man, I wish helike, I wish I could be doing be
(18:45):
doing what you're doing. Like,I'm so jealous. And I think
that's based on a, it speaks to,I think, the culture that he's
currently in and the workplacehe's in. But also, it's funny
because he's making some somedifficult decisions to step into
what he's stepping into, andsome hard calls.
And those people aren't and I'msure that those calls would look
(19:05):
different and maybe the thingsthat they specifically would
struggle with in that decisionto leave would look different.
But they're also like, we livein a free country. Like, they
have they have the ability toleave the same way that he does.
And that idea that he's I mean,in in that, he he'd mentioned,
you know, people talk aboutleaving all the time. People
mention making changes orpivoting to a different team or
(19:28):
something like that, butultimately, very few actually
make the decision to do that.
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (19:34):
What stands out about that particular scenario to me
as it relates to this proverb isit's very possible to check into
work every single day, and yourheart's not there, and because
your heart's not there, you'reprobably not toiling. You're
probably not doing hard work.You're probably not doing work
with your heart in it, askingthe question, how do I do my
(19:55):
best? Right? You're just phoningit in.
Right? Dave used to always say,like, I think, like, when your
heart leaves this place, yourbutt should follow. Right? It's
like that's a very Dave Ramseyway of saying it, but it it's
probably true. And and why isthat in a person's best interest
is because if your heart hasleft the place, if you're not
able to do hard work, then it'snot going to profit.
(20:16):
Right? And and, you know, evenfinancially, it won't long term
profit, but because it'sunsustainable. Right? But you
won't get any of the good thingsthat come from hard work done
well if you're not doing thehard work well. And so what I
wouldn't take this as for, youknow, especially younger people
listening to this podcast is anexcuse to just tap out the
(20:40):
minute something getsuncomfortable.
I think anytime we experiencereal discomfort associated with
where we're working, we shouldrecognize something has to
change. My heart's not in this,so something has to change. And
the first thing that you shouldconsider changing is you. Mhmm.
Instead of trying to changeeverything around you, trying to
change your career, like, you'regonna bring the same you to a
(21:01):
new career.
And so if it's a heart problem,that's not gonna fix anything
because I think sometimes, and Icould be, like, called guilty of
this in previous roles andthings like that. The issue is
that I have demonized hard work.And if I, that's a problem if
I've demonized hard work becausehard work is where all the
profit comes from.
Ben Loy (21:21):
Yeah. Challenge in general is where character is
(22:26):
built. Mhmm.
Alex Judd (22:27):
Right? Explain that some. I I
Ben Loy (22:29):
mean, I don't believe and I think it's I think it's a
biblical concept that we're notmeant to live a comfortable
life. Mhmm. And, I mean, youlook at I think we were talking
about this even earlier thismorning, Hebrews 12, right, the
what fatherly discipline lookslike and I think I think so many
people's perspectives of whatfatherly discipline looks like
(22:50):
can sometimes feel punitivebased on experience and just
what we what we see representedaround us. And the reality is
that, like, a loving fatherisn't gonna give their child a
comfortable life. Like, a lovingfather is going to at least
introduce some level of frictionand challenge to build up their
(23:10):
their child's character.
Alex Judd (23:13):
Man, as you're saying, man, I looked up what
the Hebrew word for toil is inProverbs fourteen twenty three,
and I need to call Naftali toask him not the pronunciation of
this, but, because he's one ofour Orthodox Jewish friends. But
it says, Ezeb, which refers tohard, painful, or grievous labor
that yields results or profitunlike the poverty inducing idle
(23:36):
talk that it's contrasted with.So I actually find that
definition really helpful thanus just saying hard work
because, like, it's literallygrievously. Mhmm. Like, it's,
painful.
It literally says painful.Right? And I just think that so
often, we equate profitable,like, profitable life even with
(24:00):
no pain. Mhmm. And what this issaying is, like, that if you
engage in something that ishard, painful, or grievous, that
will produce some type ofprofit.
Ben Loy (24:10):
Yeah. This this makes me think of Rescue Swimmer
School and the first week weshowed up, you know, I mean,
everybody people come in andthere's all kinds of sayings
people use to keep themselvescommitting to and pushing
through a school like that and alot of people come in with a lot
of gusto and like, oh, you know,the people are like, oh, I'm I'm
(24:32):
only coming out of here with bygraduating or in a body bag or
something ridiculous like that.And it's over the top and it's
ridiculous, but the premise ispeople come into this school
speaking very highly of whatthey think they are gonna be
able to accomplish and what theywant to do. And there was a guy
in my class, very first week,you went into his his room in
(24:52):
the barracks and he had I'm notkidding you. I mean, of sticky
notes with all kinds of sayingsand motivational quotes on them
just lining his his wall, hisbunk bed, like, everything.
And, like, eight days in, herang the bell and he left. Wow.
And it's just that idea of mean,you can you can talk a big game,
(25:16):
you can, you can use everyinspirational quote in the book
and you can say say anything,but when push comes to shove, if
you're not actually able toapply yourself and face the toil
that's in front of you, it leadsto failure, it leads to poverty.
Alex Judd (25:31):
Mhmm. Of the resources that I really love to
use for conversations like theone we're having is a resource
called Tom Constable Notes,which it's I think he's in
Plano, Texas, which, I mean, godbless him, he's in Texas. Right?
But he, I think, reads throughthe bible every year and
catalogs and pulls the best ofwhat he reads from multiple
(25:53):
commentaries into this PDFresource and pulls it all
together. And so it's like thisdistilled, like, referencing of
a wide variety of commentaries.
And this is what he said onProverbs four twenty twenty
three. The the lessons, I think,particularly would be helpful
for your friend in coast guardschool. It says, actually
(26:13):
working on a project willproduce a, quote, profit, but
only talking about it will yieldno profit but poverty instead.
Nehemiah not only had a greatvision for the rebuilding of
Jerusalem's walls, but he wenton to work and brought his
vision to pass. The falseteachers that Jude warned about
were like clouds without water.
(26:33):
They promised great things butfailed to deliver them.
Visionaries are a dime a dozen.It is those who follow through
and go to work to bring theirvision to reality that are
successful. And so, I mean, Ifeel like one of the things that
this, cautions us against is bevery, I would say, conservative
in your commitments and get towork. Mhmm.
(26:55):
You know? I think a lot of timeswe try to impress people with
our commitments. And in reality,I would way rather people be
impressed by the results thanthe commitments themselves and
probably shouldn't makingimpressing people one of the
core driving motives at all.
Ben Loy (27:10):
Yeah. Yeah. In the context of business ownership
and leadership, the idea ofpresenting a really good image
and a really inspiring image andcasting vision, I think, can be
so tempting. And like you said,I think oftentimes we want to
impress people with what we'resupposedly committing to and not
(27:30):
necessarily inclined to backthat up with with the
consistency of hard work andtoil and commitment. Mhmm.
Alex Judd (27:37):
The other thing that stands out that I really wanted
to ask you about because, Imean, we had breakfast this
morning and you were discussingthat this has been something
that's really showed up for yourecently is in all toil, there
is profit. I've heard you usethis phrase multiple times in
the past few days, nothing iswasted. Mhmm. Right? Like, so I
think the two really, reallyconnect.
(27:57):
So I'd love for you to doubleclick on that.
Ben Loy (27:59):
Yeah. I mean, I just think if you believe the bible
is true and that God is who hesays he is and and Jesus is who
he says he is, like, we serve aGod who is in the business and
has committed to restoration andredemption. And I think in that,
(28:20):
you see themes throughout theBible and throughout scripture
that that absolutely nothing iswasted. And oftentimes,
anecdotally, in other people'slives, I think, especially when
it comes to leadership and a lotof inspirational speakers, it
seems like their greatestweakness or their greatest fall
or struggle in life turns intothe catalyst that is used for
(28:44):
for God to use them in animpactful way. And I think that
that just rings true across theboard.
Yeah. I mean, I look at my ownlife and, like, the decision to
move back here a year ago. Imoved back here almost back to
Arizona from Texas almost a yearalmost to the day right now. And
I look at my life a year agoand, like, the really hard calls
(29:05):
I had to make to quit my job, tocome back to the state of
Arizona, to dive back intocommunity here, to take risks
with, helping my brother launchhis business. And I just could
never have imagined that I'd besitting where I am today, the
only three hundred and sixtyfive days from now.
(29:25):
But it's because of thedecisions I made at that time
when things were really foggyand uncertain and the
commitments I made to, in manyways, the core values and
convictions that God has givenme that I can sit here today and
say, oh, no, I'm I'mexperiencing fruit and abundance
from those decisions anddirectly from that season. And
(29:46):
even the act of making thosedecisions and commitments in
that season when it wasdifficult, like, God waste
nothing. And, like, he usedthose moments to define my
character and to to grow me.
Alex Judd (29:59):
Yeah. Which is so, I mean, so cool because then I sit
down, like, in my morning prayertime, and I'm like, you're
telling me that if I staysubmitted to God and keep my
eyes on glorifying Him and justlove people in the process
there's nothing that I can dothat will not gain profit. It's
like, yep. It's like, what? It'sliterally that simple.
(30:21):
What's crazy is it like, it isif you read it, it's literally
that simple. Like, submiteverything to God, commit your
way to him, and love people inthe process of doing that, and
there is nothing you will dothat will not profit. And let's
obviously expand the word profitto, like, gain above and beyond
the activity itself. It's whatwe're talking about there. But
(30:43):
what's crazy is it's so simplethat that's why we deviate.
We get bored. We we do differentthings. But the other thing that
I would highlight about what youjust talked about from your
personal experience is I thinkthe number one thing that keeps
leaders sidelined from the lifethat they could be living is
(31:04):
indecision. Right? The the Idon't know what I should do.
I don't know what I'm called todo. I don't know what I want to
do. Use whatever language youwant, and therefore they do
nothing. And what's soempowering about this verse is
if you do it and you work hardat it and and you believe in it,
if it's toil, it will gain aprofit. And so in some ways,
(31:24):
it's kind of saying it matters,but it doesn't really matter.
Mhmm. Right? Like and it'sincorrect to get this
perspective in our head, Ithink, that it's like, man, one
of these ways is gonna beprofitable, create gain for
others, create abundance, createflourishing, and one of these
ways is gonna be, you know, Ithink we picture, like, literal
hell. And it's like, certainly,there are good and bad scenarios
(31:46):
where that could be the case.But more often than not, it's
like, if you can put your heartinto it and you can work really
hard at it, if you do that, itwill it will generate profit.
And that profit could be, hey. Idid that for a year, and I
learned after doing that for ayear a bunch of lessons that
caused me to get a clearervision of what I could or should
be doing. That's profit. Right?Or it could be, man, this is
(32:09):
exactly what I'm supposed to bedoing, and I couldn't have known
that with certainty withoutgetting a year into it.
Ben Loy (32:16):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (32:17):
What's sad is a lot of us never choose, and
therefore, we never get good atanything.
Ben Loy (32:22):
Yeah. I feel like I've heard more than once from
successful entrepreneurs, like,oh, everybody knows me for this
business, you know, the one thatI I made a $100,000,000 from,
but they don't know about the 12other businesses that I started
before starting the one that wassuccessful. And that idea that
making the decision to pursuesomething and working at it,
(32:44):
like, they would not have beensuccessful in the business that
really took off if they hadn'ttaken the steps to develop the
skills and go through theexperiences they did in the the
12 businesses prior. And I feellike I I hear that consistently
over and over and over again.
Alex Judd (32:58):
For sure. Yeah. I mean, the the business terms for
it is deliberate strategy versusemergent strategy. And the best
case study I've ever heard onthis topic is Honda started
bringing motorcycles to TheUnited States to start trying to
sell motorcycles here, and itwas particularly on the West
Coast. It's been a while sinceI've read this case study, but
they brought motorcycles overhere.
(33:19):
And they thought to themselves,like, we need to bring, like,
the equivalent of a a Harleyover here because we're trying
to sell to Americans. And itwent horribly. Right? Because
Americans, like, if they'rebuying a Harley, they're gonna
buy a Harley. They're not gonnabuy Harley culture is not gonna
be like, oh, but Honda's alittle bit cheaper, and I hear
it's more reliable.
It's like, no, dude. Thesepeople get that tattooed on
(33:41):
their back. Like, they are notgonna buy a Honda. Right? And it
was going very poorly, like,very poorly to the point where
they were saying we're gonnawe're gonna pull out of the West
Coast Of The United Statesbecause these things just aren't
selling.
Well, they were literally inprocess of starting decisions
around pulling out of the WestCoast, and they had a couple
other workers that they justsent with some little Honda
(34:01):
motorbikes to, like, ride aroundtown and stuff like that. And
some like, there had become alot of interest in the little
motorbikes that they were ridingaround that were the exact
opposite of a Harley to thepoint where they're like, a lot
of people are asking where theycan get these. Like, we're
literally getting a lot ofrequests for this. What if we
tried selling this? Boom.
It went crazy. Right? It was nottheir deliberate strategy. Their
(34:25):
deliberate strategy actuallysucked, but they would have
never gotten to their emergentstrategy if they didn't do their
deliberate strategy. And so Ithink that's actually a pretty
good example of it was all toil.
They they were putting theirheart into all of it, and it
eventually led to profit.
Ben Loy (34:40):
Yeah. I just love there is profit in in all hard work.
Alex Judd (34:44):
That's crazy. That
Ben Loy (34:46):
is
Alex Judd (34:46):
crazy.
Ben Loy (34:46):
The word all is in there, like Yeah. Nothing is
yeah. Again, like, nothing iswasted. Right?
Alex Judd (34:51):
Mhmm.
Ben Loy (34:52):
Is there anything else that you wanna say to that
before we move on?
Alex Judd (34:55):
Yeah. I mean, and this is advice or conviction
that I could receive as well.The the second half of the verse
is mere talk tends only topoverty. Mhmm. Right?
We can ideate, and ideationconversations are really fun,
and we can, you know, talk aboutwhat we wish we could do or talk
about the things that could bereally cool if we did it, or we
could talk about, you know, whatour business would do if we
(35:17):
started a business. And thattalk literally tends the
trajectory of talking only goestowards poverty. Right? Means
that you have no bread to put onthe table is what the message
says. What it say?
It says the message version sayshard work pays off. Mere talk
puts no bread on the table. It'slike you've never put bread on
(35:37):
the table by just talking. NowEugene Peterson probably wrote
that when podcasts weren't athing. Even the podcast though,
we can all if we just record apodcast and don't get strategic
and intentional, hard work ofthe head about how to
distribute, how to market, howto reach specific customer or
things like that, I've donepodcasts before where all you do
(35:58):
is talk and nothing else, and itdoesn't go, it doesn't profit.
Ben Loy (36:01):
Yeah. And I think in today's day and age, talk can
often look like, I mean, and youalready alluded to it, we live
we just live in the age ofinformation overload. Yeah. And,
yeah, I mean, you could sit downand and listen to every podcast
out there about training for arace, training for a half or a
(36:23):
marathon or something like that.And you can order all the gear
and look at it.
You can listen to every Hubermanlab to optimize your sleep and
your diet, but ultimately, like,if you never actually put in the
consistent grind of runningmiles upon miles every week in
preparation for it, you're nevergoing to get there.
Alex Judd (36:42):
Yeah. It actually I keep referencing this
conversation, so I'm excited tohave him on the podcast. But the
conversation we had with yourbrother the other day, who's a
business owner, is one of thethings he said that I thought
was really sharp for hisbusiness is he said, man, the
minute we actually put somethingout to the marketplace, the
feedback loop exponentiallyincreases, which is so true.
Right? We can chat about thethings that we wanna release to
(37:05):
the marketplace for literallyyears on end and not receive any
real feedback.
The minute you start gettingfeedback that leads to customer
centric improvement is when youactually put something out there
and do something. Yep. Right?Okay. We could talk more on this
for a very long time.
You go with the next one. Cool.
Ben Loy (37:20):
So the next one I had was '19.
Alex Judd (37:23):
Okay.
Ben Loy (37:24):
And this is the one I was I, like, let out an oof
while we were preparing Yeah.Before this because I was like,
I've read Proverbs so many timesand I feel like every time I
read it, there's always one thatI'm like, I like didn't don't I
didn't remember this one beingin here and it just hits me hard
for some reason in this season.
Alex Judd (37:40):
Yeah. I didn't know which one you were talking about
when we were preparing but nowI'm looking it up and I'm I'm
pumped to talk about
Ben Loy (37:46):
this. This will be great. Yeah. So Proverbs
eighteen one, one who isolateshimself pursues selfish desires.
He rebels against all soundwisdom.
And I just my note that I wrotedown was just isolation equals
rebellion, which I yeah, I justnever thought to frame it that
way, but it makes so much sense.And not only rebellion, but,
(38:08):
like, you're rebelling againstall sound wisdom. And Proverbs
one says, like, the beginning ofknowledge, beginning of wisdom
is the fear of the Lord. So it'slike you are actively rebelling
against submitting to God andHis authority by isolating
yourself as a leader. And I'mlike, man, that hits hard.
Alex Judd (38:26):
Okay. So here's what I'd like to do because I think
sometimes we can use words likerebellion, right? You know,
we're trying to overthrow God'swill or things like that, and
it's like that but when you'redoing it though, that isn't
practically what it feels likeat all. So I love, you know, and
I'll share one too, but do youhave a practical example of
(38:47):
where maybe you've fallen you'vebeen unwise as it relates to
this proverb? Mhmm.
Ben Loy (38:52):
I think in previous seasons and really even just
growing up, like, the way that Iwas wired and the environment I
was in, I was really, in mymind, really good at internally
processing a lot. Mhmm. So,like, I wasn't an oral
processor. I was I I still amintroverted. I think it just
looks different, but, like, Iwas a pretty introverted kid,
(39:13):
and so there was a lot that Ijust processed through on my own
and in my own thinking andthrough just, like, rumination
that I and I think I carriedthat disposition into my
adulthood, and I I probablycarried it farther than I needed
to after becoming a Christianand learning what healthy
(39:35):
community and accountabilitylooks like, and then having that
healthy community andaccountability.
And then I think, again, I thinkthat disposition carried farther
probably than it should have,like years farther. Because I
would always, I mean, even in mydecision to move to Texas to
continue to pursue flightschool, like, was a very
(39:56):
turbulent time for me, mydecision to get out of the Coast
Guard. I don't even, I don'tregret any of those decisions
and like, I think we've talkedabout
Alex Judd (40:03):
previously All things are profitable.
Ben Loy (40:04):
All things are profitable. Yeah. Like nothing
is wasted and and the Lord usedthe difficulties in those
pursuits to form me in so manydifferent ways and so I don't
look back with regret at all,but I do look back sometimes
and, like, the nature of where Iwas when I was living in Oregon
and then making the decision toget out of the coast guard is I
(40:26):
didn't have church community, Iwas isolated, I was in a small
town. And so all of the peoplethat could weigh into my life
and that I had gotten to knowthroughout my life were from a
distance. And while I think thatthat insight is really valuable,
there's only so much that theycan really weigh into when I'm
(40:49):
the one painting the picturefrom a point of isolation of
like what my life looks like andhow I'm thinking through things.
And so I I like, I look at thatdecision. I also look at, again,
like my my time in Texas andagain, another season where I
was like a a little moreisolated. I didn't have as many
roots in Houston as I did inArizona and other parts, and so
(41:11):
I wasn't as well connected andlife was busy. And so making
decisions from a position ofisolation versus just making
decisions from a position ofstrength and being surrounded by
wise counsel, I think led toprobably some more heartache
than there needed to be.
Alex Judd (41:30):
Yeah, like the way that you took that because I
think so often there's a lot ofconversation today around the
role of vulnerability ineffective leadership and I think
it's critically important. But alot of times, the way we frame
content around man beingvulnerable as a leader is like,
because that's gonna make youmore trustworthy to your team.
(41:52):
But it's like, that is a sidebenefit. But in reality, it's
also there are seasons where youare vulnerable. And if anything,
it's just humility, like havingan accurate viewpoint of
yourself to be able to bevulnerable with people to say
like, I actually don't know whatto do here.
And I think a lot of timesleaders isolate because they
don't like looking like someonewho doesn't know what to do. And
(42:14):
so they cut themselves off frompeople so that the people can
continue to have the image ofthem as someone who knows what
to do. And meanwhile, they just,like, get in their little hole
and, again, isolate. Right?That's exactly what they do.
Ben Loy (42:29):
And this verse too, I mean, one who isolates himself
pursues selfish desires. Yeah.And, I mean, that idea that you
were just speaking into ofvulnerability is extreme or lack
of vulnerability is actuallyextremely prideful because
normally I think it is imagebased. It's the what will they
think of me or I want to lookstrong, I want to look like I'm
(42:49):
acting from a position ofstrength when I don't feel
strong right now. And sofighting against vulnerability
and authenticity with the peoplearound you is actually selfish.
Alex Judd (43:00):
Yeah. What am I guarding here? Is in some ways
what we should ask. I thinkabout there was probably, you
know, year two, year three ofthe business where I started to
experience some stress aroundsome certain decisions, and I
like, there were some certainstrategies that we were pursuing
and going all in on that I I wasquestioning and I had a lot of
(43:21):
questions about, but I I didn'tknow exactly who I could go to.
The way I evaluated, I I likehad a host of mentors that I
knew I could talk to.
I I mean, there's, you know, anabundance of really really smart
business leaders. I And kind of
Ben Loy (43:32):
thought about who I
Alex Judd (43:33):
could call. And with all of them, I was like, well,
they just wouldn't understand.And it was one of two things.
They either wouldn't understandthe context. Why?
Because I hadn't been living incommunity with them to keep them
updated on the context ofeverything leading up to this
decision. Right? Which is whycommunity over time, not just in
crisis, is so valuable. But thenthe second thing that I think is
(43:56):
really important, especially theday and age we live in, is I I
would say they just wouldn'tunderstand because I was like,
they might, you know, have alittle bit of a different
theological bent than I do as itrelates to this decision, or
they might, you know, thinkabout business way differently
than I do, or or, you know, Icould think of a number of
reasons why they just wouldn'tunderstand why I'm doing the
(44:17):
things that I'm doing in thisscenario. Mhmm.
And they'd probably advise me totake a different course or
something like that. And, youknow, now looking back with a
little bit more wisdom, I'd belike, maybe there's a reason
they don't understand. Right?Yeah. And and I think it's we
should be very shrewd anddiscriminating with the advice
we allow ourselves to receive.
But the thing that, you know, Ilook back and I say, that was
(44:40):
pretty prideful is, okay, theymight have a different theology
than you, and you might evendisagree with their theology.
Just because you get theiradvice doesn't mean you have to
take it.
Ben Loy (44:47):
Right.
Alex Judd (44:47):
Right? You could just listen and just be like, okay. I
respectfully disagree. I didn'teven wanna hear it. And so what
was really going on there isexactly exactly what the proverb
says is, oh, you just want to dowhat you want to do.
Yeah. Is what we're talkingabout here, you know? My
Ben Loy (45:00):
thought is when I hear, oh, they they might differ
slightly with me in theology ordisposition. I'm like, good.
Like, go talk to those people.
Alex Judd (45:08):
Yeah. You know? That's so that's so good. Yeah.
That's a great point.
Where were you two or threeyears I knew you two or three
years ago, but I wasn't talkingto you. Right? I was isolating.
Right? But, I mean, I I have amentor that he actually says,
like, whenever I'm facing a bigdecision, he's like, I wanna
call the most, like,conservative, straight laced,
(45:30):
like, just protect what youcurrently have person I know.
And then he said, and then Ialso wanna swing to the other
side and talk to the most like,just aggressive, bold visionary
that he know that I know. And hesaid, not because I'm gonna
necessarily wholesale followeither of them, but because
there's probably nuggets oftruth in both of them that I'll
(45:51):
be able to incorporate into awise decision that I can believe
in. But I think and I think itshould be a future podcast of
some some sort is gray thinking.I I learned about this from a
book called the contrarian'sguide to leadership, that our
friend, Seth, recommended to me.So did Jim Mullins.
(46:13):
And the which don't you lovethat title? The Contrarian's
Guide to the I was like, sign meup. That sounds pretty good. But
he talks about, like, we sooften try to frame things
through black and white. Like,it's either the visionary way is
the right approach or theconservative way is the right
approach.
And he's like, no. In reality,there's probably things both of
those mentors or or, counselorsare saying that is true, and
(46:33):
that should be incorporated intoa gray decision for how to move
forward in some ways. But if youjust wanna do what you wanna do,
there's no reason to listen toeither of them. Right.
Ben Loy (46:43):
Okay. Let's dive, in the couple minutes that we have
left. Let's dive back into yousaid you had some thoughts on
the idea of rebellion andrebelling against all sound
wisdom?
Alex Judd (46:55):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess what I was saying there is
when I was saying, well, theyjust wouldn't understand. Like,
let's be very clear. I I did notthink I was being unwise or an
idiot in that scenario, and Icertainly didn't think I was
being rebellious in thatscenario. I I wasn't shaking my
fist at God being like, no way.
I'm it was just like I wasmoving really fast. You know? I
(47:19):
I didn't wanna have an hour anda half phone call to catch
everyone up on everything I wasdoing, and I didn't really feel
like the decisions that I wasmaking, like, any of those
individuals that I'm thinkingabout would basically fully
agree with me. And so I waslike, I'm just gonna keep doing
what I'm doing, and we'll seehow it works And, you know, it
wasn't catastrophic. Right?
You know, we're still here, andthings are still going well. But
(47:42):
I could have saved myself andothers heartache if I had
preemptively had some of thosediscussions. Because what's
interesting is I ended up havingthose discussions. Wisdom always
finds a way of working its wayback around. Like, if you avoid
it Yeah.
Because wisdom is always rootedin reality, and reality always
catches up to you. So I ended uphaving the conversations. It was
(48:05):
just a little bit later, andtherefore, little bit more money
was spent and a little bit moreheartache was invested. It's
like, man, if I could have justdone this earlier, probably
could have saved a lot of time,energy, heartache.
Ben Loy (48:15):
Do you think the lesson would have hit as harder,
though?
Alex Judd (48:18):
Oh, gosh. Come on, Ben. This is supposed to be a
diagnosis of my issue. I mean,no. Yeah.
Because the lessons were alreadyreadily available to me. And so
now I think wisdom now comes in,okay, buddy, you're gonna make
those mistakes again? We've nowidentified mistakes that you
(48:38):
made. This goes back to ourfailure episode. Now the
question I I feel like, youknow, we focus on rate of
recovery.
I've owned those mistakes andmoved forward from them. I've
had actually particularconversations with those mentors
about the way that I thoughtabout them in that season, how
it was incorrect, and how I nowthink about them. And I've taken
active steps to, you know, havepeople that have context on
(48:59):
decisions that I'm making, I'mnot, like, doing it just in
crisis. So, you know, and I'vereceived grace for it. Right?
Praise God for that. Now wisdomis, okay. Are we gonna do this
again? Or when you face similardecisions, am I gonna use some
version of the phrase they justwouldn't understand? Mhmm.
I I heard someone recently say,and this is a guy who could say
this too. It was, Brian Houston.You know who that is? He was the
(49:22):
lead pastor at Hillsong. Mhmm.
Right? That unfortunately and hewould say this. His tenure at
Hillsong ended in disgrace.Mhmm. Right?
He did he just recently releaseda two part podcast lesson on
Humpty Pastor. Humpty Dumptyfell off the wall. Humpty Dumpty
had a great fall, and all theking's horses and all the king's
men couldn't put Humpty backtogether again. Right? Really
great lesson.
(49:43):
And, you know, I'm hisperspective on that is you
uniquely valuable. Right?Because it's probably one of the
most exposed and, like, widelytalked about falls, in our time.
Right? Is just his fall inpeople's eyes and what they
perceived him to be.
One of the things that he saidin that that was so good, he
said, there's good mistakes,there's bad mistakes, and
(50:06):
there's tragic mistakes. Andgood mistakes are ones that
other people make that we learnfrom. Bad mistakes are ones that
we have to make, but we learnfrom. Tragic mistakes are ones
that we make, but we never learnfrom. And there you go.
It's like yeah. That and that'swhat happens without an
abundance of counselors. Like,we doom ourselves to tragic
(50:26):
mistakes where we keep doing thesame thing and nothing different
ever happens.
Ben Loy (50:31):
Mhmm. Man, well, we are out of time to die What
Alex Judd (50:34):
a brilliant no day. Dive into.
Ben Loy (50:36):
But I will say, like, I mean, is our second time doing
this. This is, I think, quicklybecoming one of my favorite
versions of what we're doinghere on the podcast. And in the
spirit of not living inisolation, like, if you're
listening to this podcast, thisis something that you could and
honestly, like, should be doingwith the people around you in
your daily life. Open up theword, a passage. I mean, pick
(50:57):
the proverbs and just talkthrough them with people.
I think I find it personallyedifying. I think Alex would
would agree.
Alex Judd (51:04):
Oh, yeah. And, I mean, I learn something every
time too. And and that, like,vulnerability, it's kind of
vulnerable to walk intosomething and be like, I don't
know. I don't really know whatwe're gonna talk about as it
relates to auxin and resources.And Yep.
But you learn something in theuncovering of things. And, I
mean, we live in this time wherewe have Google and Tom Constable
notes, and I don't just trust AIas your source for commentaries,
(51:28):
but it's such a powerful timethat we can learn so much and
grow so much in community.
Ben Loy (51:32):
Yeah. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation, and
I'm looking forward to more.
Alex Judd (51:35):
Same. Thanks, Ben. Yep. Well, there you have it.
Thanks so much for joining usfor this episode.
If you want any of theinformation or resources that we
mentioned, that's all in theshow notes. Hey. Before you go,
could I ask you for one quickfavor? Could you subscribe,
rate, and review this podcastepisode? Your feedback is what
(51:56):
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We wanna amplify what's valuableto you and obviously reduce or
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advance for helping us out onthat front. Are you a leader
(52:17):
that wants to grow your businessin a healthy way, serve people
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Hey, thank you so much to thePath for Growth team, Kyle
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(52:39):
leaders that are activelyengaged in the path for growth
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Y'all know this. We're rootingfor you. We're praying for you.
We wanna see you win. Remember,my strength is not for me. Your
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go.
Let's go. Let's go.
Okay, so the purpose of these exploration episodes is
for us to choose a topic and notclaim to be an expert on that
topic, but rather to say, ma'am,we're gonna get an hour further
on this topic of discussion,maybe and hopefully get a little
bit more understanding, get alittle bit wiser on the thing
that we feel like is valuablefor leaders regardless of the
(00:25):
stage or space that they leadin. And we've actually done one
of these episodes before, and itwas so cool to see the feedback
on it. And I think you and I gota lot of value from it, and we
also heard people talking aboutit after the fact. So we said,
man, let's do that again. Andthat's really just extracting a
few proverbs from the book ofProverbs and saying we're gonna
(00:45):
treat these as hard candy,wisdom hard candy that, man,
hard candy, if you try to crunchon it, what Tim Keller says is
you're gonna break a toothprobably.
However, if you suck on it, ifyou allow the wisdom to come out
of it, oftentimes it can changeyour paradigm for looking at
life, leadership, business,following Jesus altogether. And
so that's really the goal ofthis episode is we each chose
(01:07):
three. We'll see if we get toall six or not. And we're just
gonna park on these and havegenuine discussion about
questions that we'relegitimately interested in with
regard to these statements abouthow life, how the world works.
And so with that, how about youstart with number one?
What's the first one you chose?
Ben Loy (01:25):
Cool. So the first one I had was Proverbs fourteen
four, where there are no oxen,the feeding trough is empty, but
an abundant harvest comesthrough the strength of an ox.
Alex Judd (01:36):
So obviously, this is a conversation about animals is
what we're
Ben Loy (01:39):
about Yeah. Talk
Alex Judd (01:41):
Yeah. Animal hygiene, things
Ben Loy (01:42):
like that. Definitely. No, I think the thing that
stands out to me the most withthis, and I think this really
weighs into one of our corevalues of strength is for
service, is that the the oxen'swork not only feeds themselves,
but it feeds those around them,right? With, if there are no
(02:04):
oxen, the feeding trough isempty. So not only is there no
food for the village or, youknow, whatever particular
setting this is this is writtenin, but there's also no food for
themselves.
And so just that idea ofoperating out of abundance,
operating from strength andusing that strength to not only
serve yourself but serve othersis really impactful.
Alex Judd (02:25):
Mhmm. Yeah. And so in some ways, it's a, like, should
motivate abundance in some ways.Is that what you're saying
there?
Ben Loy (02:32):
I think so. Or having the the posture of if you're
working to serve others orworking to feed others, I think
intuitively, like, you will endup feeding yourself Mhmm. In in
the process.
Alex Judd (02:45):
What do you make of where there are no oxen, the
manger is clean? Like, first ofall, is that what your
translation says?
Ben Loy (02:52):
Or well, mine's CSV. So it says where there are no oxen,
the feeding trough is empty. SoI mean the same thing, manger
feeding trough.
Alex Judd (02:59):
I I was just ask asking what do you make of that?
Because for me, it doesn't sayempty. It says clean, which is
interesting because, you know,it might not actually mean this,
but but when I think of likeit's clean, it's like, you know,
what's a life without anyproblems? It's like you don't
have anyone working for you,anything doing anything, right?
When you have nothing, there'sno problem.
It's all clean, but you don'thave anything. Right? And and in
(03:22):
some ways, it's like if we usethat translation, right, which
this is ESV, it's like theminute you start to bring on
resources or workers or thingslike that, things start to get a
little bit more messy. Mhmm. Andand maybe it's, in some ways,
setting expectations for that.
Ben Loy (03:38):
Yeah. I guess in the context of growing, how do you
think that this proverb speaksto scaling impact?
Alex Judd (03:46):
Well, it's interesting. I'm reading right
now. I pulled up. It'sEllicott's commentary for
English readers So is what thisthey focus on where no oxen are,
the crib is clean, a proverbwhich may be taken in various
ways. Some have seen it as anexhortation to kindness towards
animals in consideration oftheir great use Alright.
(04:06):
So literal interpretation. Imean, it's actually pretty
amazing. Like, there's otherproverbs too that highlight the
importance of taking care ofyour beast. Right? Like, don't
hurt the thing that is actuallyhelping you.
Ben Loy (04:17):
And Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
Alex Judd (04:19):
Exactly. And that principle transcends, you know,
whether or not you own oxen ornot. Right? Others interpret it
as the idea that labor has adisagreeable aspect but also
brings its reward, whethermaterial prosperity or more
enduring reward. So I think whatthat's highlighting is almost
like the more you have, the moreproblems you have as well.
(04:41):
And if you're gonna, you know,grow in your career right? Why
do leaders get paid more on anorg chart? Because they have
bigger problems to deal with.Right? And the minute you get
rid of all the problems, youactually get rid of all the work
as well.
And so I think that that is apiece of wisdom that could be
drawn out of this is like, youdon't get to say, man, I just
want a lot of oxen, but I don'twant any mess. It's like, if
(05:03):
you're asking for oxen, you'reasking for a mess Yeah. And the
two go hand in hand.
Ben Loy (05:08):
With that, the the idea that, like, if there are more
oxen, the harvest will be alsomore abundant, but there'll also
be a greater mess involved.Right?
Alex Judd (05:18):
Yeah. That's right. And and the two go hand in hand,
like, abundance, more mess Mhmm.In some ways.
Ben Loy (05:25):
Mo money, mo problems.
Alex Judd (05:26):
I mean, yeah, that's actually the the Ben Lloyd
translation of of Proverbsfourteen four.
Ben Loy (05:33):
Yeah. I guess, is this proverb alluding to problems,
though? Like, what is what'sbeing said in this proverb that
spins in that direction? Becausethe second line says an abundant
harvest comes through thestrength of an ox.
Alex Judd (05:45):
I guess the way I take that is you have these
resources that have been givento you to generate more
resource. Mhmm. And, like, thatis their gift. And in some ways,
one of the implications of thefirst verse is that, like, but
with that gift that you've beengiven comes responsibility and
(06:08):
stewardship. And so a mess initself might not be a horrible
issue.
A mess that no one takesresponsibility for is probably a
tremendous issue. And so in someways, if I'm taking on more
oxen, I'm going to create moremess, which means I need to have
(06:29):
more systems to properly stewardand clean and maintain that
which I've been given. And sothere's an embedded principle in
here that we used to say a lot,and we still do say quite a lot
with our coaching clients. Zachon our team kinda popularized
this in the Path for Growthcommunity. It's everything
requires maintenance.
And so a lot of times we see theoxen and we're like, I want
(06:52):
that! Give me a bunch of oxen!Because we see we don't even see
really the oxen, we see theharvest. We say, I want that.
Okay, well that harvest requiresoxen and those oxen require
maintenance.
Mhmm. And the reason why theyrequire maintenance is because
they create a mess. Right? Andso let's make the parallel very
clear. So we see the harvest.
(07:14):
We see business owners takingbig, like, owners distributions
from their business because theyonly the business has an asset.
They've got a team that is hyperengaged. Right? They they have a
high degree of freedom in theirschedule. Right?
This is all the harvest ofowning a business. What what do
they not see? They don't see allthe behind the scenes work that
(07:35):
goes into creating thoseresults. Right? The systems, the
tough conversations, the thenights spent by yourself where
you're laying out the plan forthat business.
Right? That's the oxen in someways. And then we don't also
see, man, anytime you have agroup of people that is working
on anything, there will alwaysbe challenges, disagreements,
(07:56):
conflict, and whose job is it todeal with that, to scoop in and
help at least mediate that,that's gonna be the leader's
job. And so we've had thisconversation before, but if you
want the harvest without thehassle, maybe would be the,
like, evangelical, preacher'sway of putting it. Like, you
can't have the harvest withoutthe hassle is what I would say.
Ben Loy (08:17):
Yeah. The other thought too that comes to mind on that,
(10:01):
and, like, rebuke me if this istaking it farther than than
maybe in this context, theproverb is intended. But, like,
the strength of an ox, you know,an abundant harvest comes
through the strength of an ox.An empty feeding trough implies
that, like, not only do oxrequire maintenance, but they
require maintenance to behealthy. And, like, if if your
(10:23):
team or the the things withinyour business that require
maintenance aren't healthy,you're not gonna have an
abundant harvest.
Right? Operating from a positionof strength by using your
resources well to not only growbut to feed and and take care of
the things that are under yourstewardship.
Alex Judd (10:43):
Yeah. No rebuke for me. Cool. Yeah. And I'm sure if
someone out there has a rebukefor us, they'll let us know.
But the term that comes to mindfor me is you're saying that is
a reinvestment. Right? I'm gonnafeed all these ox, make them
really strong because when Ifeed them, they're gonna
generate a harvest. And then I'mgonna take all that harvest and
hoard it to myself. You fool.
(11:04):
Right? Like, I'm gonna feed allthese oxen. They're gonna be
really strong, they're gonnagenerate a harvest, and then
some of that harvest is gonna beset aside so that we can
purchase more food for the oxento make them more strong. It's
so interesting. We, he'sactually speaking at our
upcoming experience in Austin.
His name is JP Krueger. He'sjust a business leader and
(11:26):
business owner in Austin that Iso deeply respect. He he is
truly one of the most pragmaticpeople I've ever met and just a
deeply practical leader. Sothat's what his talk is gonna be
focused on. But his companygives away 33% of profit every
year to causes not related tothe company.
That's wild. So it's 33% ofprofit dedicated strictly to
(11:49):
generosity, and they give itaway. And, you know, you talk to
him. Again, he's a pragmatist.And you talk to him and he's
like, well, I just read it as,like, that's the one place where
God says test me and see if Iwon't open.
He's like, so I just figured Ishould probably do that. He
said, and so we started at 10%,and we knocked it up to 12, then
we knocked it up to 15, and wekept testing, and he kept
giving. And what's crazy, one ofthe things he's gonna show at
(12:11):
the experience is that lots ofpeople use this term very
liberally to not describe what'sactually going on. This is
absolutely what has gone on atJP's company, hockey stick
growth. And, like, he's gonnashow the graph.
It's absurd, the amount ofgrowth they've experienced,
which I would say is probablyrelated. Right? But what's
(12:31):
interesting is he said theyparked at 33%. And the reason
why they parked at 33%, he said,there's a practical reason.
Again, practically, he said,because the team got tired of
updating the website every timeto say, like, we give away 20%.
We give away 23%. Like, he said,so we said it would be good to
have a static number for all ofour marketing material that we
(12:51):
share that with. But then hesaid, number two is he said,
that was the portion that wehave found practically. We could
continue to make the whole piebigger. But he said, we started
to fear that if we do any morethan that, you're now actually
shrinking the size of the piebecause you're not able to
reinvest into the oxen,essentially.
And so he gives very generouslyand reinvest into his business
(13:15):
by reinvesting really into histeam, and that makes the pie
bigger. So that means 33% yearover year is growing and growing
and growing. But, you know, itwould be really actually foolish
to say we're gonna up that to50% and to have a team that's,
like, you know, maybe notexperiencing the flourishing of
(13:37):
the business in the way thattheir family is growing
financially because you'reessentially killing the oxen
that are creating the harvest.Yeah. Can you draw it a little
bit more?
So you said you connected tostrength is for service. Like,
how do you connect it to thatvalue?
Ben Loy (13:53):
I think, I mean, I think the second statement
really drives it home for me,but an abundant harvest comes
through the strength of an ox.And so if there are no oxen or
the oxen are weak, the feedingtrough is going to be empty. So
not only are the people notgetting fed at that point, but
so are the oxen. Just the ideathat feed comes from a crop,
(14:17):
which to be grown and tilled andthen, like, harvested in
requires oxen. So literally,like, it requires that oxen
exist and that they're alreadyhave strength to then not only
feed themselves to remainstrong, but then from there to
(14:39):
create abundance for who they'reserving and and what their
purpose is.
Right?
Alex Judd (14:44):
Mhmm. It was at our most recent in person experience
that Mike Valatin, who's just atremendous mentor of mine, he
said leaders often go astraywhen they don't identify who
their key stakeholders are. Andwe've identified one group of
key stakeholders, which is ourteam members. But there's also
partners, there's alsoinvestors, and then there's also
(15:06):
customers. Those are all keystakeholders.
And then you can think aboutyour life as a leader, like your
spouse is a key stakeholder. Andprobably have other key
stakeholders as well. And insome ways, I wouldn't tell them
this to their face, but thosepeople are oxen. Right? Like, in
in the context of what we'retalking about here.
Right? Like, those people arethe things that make this thing
(15:27):
run is what we're essentiallysaying. And I would say you
should tell them that. Right?Tell them, like, this thing
doesn't exist with you.
This thing doesn't happenwithout you. And so it's
actually really helpful to askthe question as a leader, who
are my key stakeholders in thisseason that I need to be
attending to? Right? And I wouldmake a list of them and then
ask, like, what is theequivalent of feed for those
(15:48):
people? Because those people arethe reason why we're
experiencing a harvest if we'regenerating a harvest right
Ben Loy (15:53):
now.
Alex Judd (15:54):
What does it look like for me to feed those
people? And we've talked a lotabout, you know, financially in
one of the examples that we use.We have to make sure that
they're financially winning ifthe company is winning. But
also, that's treasure, talentand time. How can you use your
gifts to serve those people?
How can you use your time? Ithink that's something that I
(16:14):
would really encourage leaderson is sometimes the best gift
that you could give one of thosekey stakeholders, maybe it's a
customer, maybe it's a partner,maybe it's an investor, maybe
it's a team member, right? Isnot more money. Maybe what you
could give them is more time. Ifyou just spend some quality time
with them, they would, like, beso excited to go bring in a huge
(16:37):
heart or help you bring in ahuge harvest.
And so just thinking about howwe're taking care of the things
that God has blessed us with.Yeah. Is there anything else on
that proverb you'd like to getinto before we go to the next
one?
Ben Loy (16:50):
I don't think so. I'd love to hear what your first one
was.
Alex Judd (16:52):
Well, I'm gonna actually go out of order because
I also had one in Proverbs 14.So let's do Proverbs fourteen
twenty three. I'll read mytranslation, and then I'd like
to hear yours as well. Proverbsfourteen twenty three in the ESV
says, in all toil, there isprofit, but mere talk tends only
(17:13):
to poverty. So in all toil,that's essentially in all work
is how I read that, there'sprofit.
And then, you know, in all talk,like or if you only talk, if
that's where you stop, it tendsonly to poverty. The thing that
stands out to me about that isall toil, there is profit. Mhmm.
(17:34):
Like, there is not a singlepiece of work in the context of
this proverb that if you do itand you do it well, it doesn't
lead to profit in some ways. AndI think the bible becomes way
more fun if you actually startto trust that it's true.
Because if you read that andyou're like, what if I actually
choose to believe this is true?It it changes the way you
(17:57):
literally do everything. Yeah.You know? So I'd love to know
your initial takeaway from thatverse.
Ben Loy (18:02):
Well, I have circled this verse in my bible, so at
least we're on the same page.Good. That mine reads, there is
profit in all hard work, butendless talk leads only to
poverty. Mhmm. So I guess theidea and the difference there
being toil isn't just work, butit's it implies hard work and,
like, hard labor.
I was actually just recentlyspeaking with a friend who has
(18:24):
made some pretty big decisionswhen it comes to his career and
just pivoting the direction inwhich he sees that going and
making some steps. And he insubmitting his two week notice
to his current employer, all ofthese people came to him and
they're like, man, I wish helike, I wish I could be doing be
(18:45):
doing what you're doing. Like,I'm so jealous. And I think
that's based on a, it speaks to,I think, the culture that he's
currently in and the workplacehe's in. But also, it's funny
because he's making some somedifficult decisions to step into
what he's stepping into, andsome hard calls.
And those people aren't and I'msure that those calls would look
(19:05):
different and maybe the thingsthat they specifically would
struggle with in that decisionto leave would look different.
But they're also like, we livein a free country. Like, they
have they have the ability toleave the same way that he does.
And that idea that he's I mean,in in that, he he'd mentioned,
you know, people talk aboutleaving all the time. People
mention making changes orpivoting to a different team or
(19:28):
something like that, butultimately, very few actually
make the decision to do that.
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (19:34):
What stands out about that particular scenario to me
as it relates to this proverb isit's very possible to check into
work every single day, and yourheart's not there, and because
your heart's not there, you'reprobably not toiling. You're
probably not doing hard work.You're probably not doing work
with your heart in it, askingthe question, how do I do my
(19:55):
best? Right? You're just phoningit in.
Right? Dave used to always say,like, I think, like, when your
heart leaves this place, yourbutt should follow. Right? It's
like that's a very Dave Ramseyway of saying it, but it it's
probably true. And and why isthat in a person's best interest
is because if your heart hasleft the place, if you're not
able to do hard work, then it'snot going to profit.
(20:16):
Right? And and, you know, evenfinancially, it won't long term
profit, but because it'sunsustainable. Right? But you
won't get any of the good thingsthat come from hard work done
well if you're not doing thehard work well. And so what I
wouldn't take this as for, youknow, especially younger people
listening to this podcast is anexcuse to just tap out the
(20:40):
minute something getsuncomfortable.
I think anytime we experiencereal discomfort associated with
where we're working, we shouldrecognize something has to
change. My heart's not in this,so something has to change. And
the first thing that you shouldconsider changing is you. Mhmm.
Instead of trying to changeeverything around you, trying to
change your career, like, you'regonna bring the same you to a
(21:01):
new career.
And so if it's a heart problem,that's not gonna fix anything
because I think sometimes, and Icould be, like, called guilty of
this in previous roles andthings like that. The issue is
that I have demonized hard work.And if I, that's a problem if
I've demonized hard work becausehard work is where all the
profit comes from.
Ben Loy (21:21):
Yeah. Challenge in general is where character is
(22:26):
built. Mhmm.
Alex Judd (22:27):
Right? Explain that some. I I
Ben Loy (22:29):
mean, I don't believe and I think it's I think it's a
biblical concept that we're notmeant to live a comfortable
life. Mhmm. And, I mean, youlook at I think we were talking
about this even earlier thismorning, Hebrews 12, right, the
what fatherly discipline lookslike and I think I think so many
people's perspectives of whatfatherly discipline looks like
(22:50):
can sometimes feel punitivebased on experience and just
what we what we see representedaround us. And the reality is
that, like, a loving fatherisn't gonna give their child a
comfortable life. Like, a lovingfather is going to at least
introduce some level of frictionand challenge to build up their
(23:10):
their child's character.
Alex Judd (23:13):
Man, as you're saying, man, I looked up what
the Hebrew word for toil is inProverbs fourteen twenty three,
and I need to call Naftali toask him not the pronunciation of
this, but, because he's one ofour Orthodox Jewish friends. But
it says, Ezeb, which refers tohard, painful, or grievous labor
that yields results or profitunlike the poverty inducing idle
(23:36):
talk that it's contrasted with.So I actually find that
definition really helpful thanus just saying hard work
because, like, it's literallygrievously. Mhmm. Like, it's,
painful.
It literally says painful.Right? And I just think that so
often, we equate profitable,like, profitable life even with
(24:00):
no pain. Mhmm. And what this issaying is, like, that if you
engage in something that ishard, painful, or grievous, that
will produce some type ofprofit.
Ben Loy (24:10):
Yeah. This this makes me think of Rescue Swimmer
School and the first week weshowed up, you know, I mean,
everybody people come in andthere's all kinds of sayings
people use to keep themselvescommitting to and pushing
through a school like that and alot of people come in with a lot
of gusto and like, oh, you know,the people are like, oh, I'm I'm
(24:32):
only coming out of here with bygraduating or in a body bag or
something ridiculous like that.And it's over the top and it's
ridiculous, but the premise ispeople come into this school
speaking very highly of whatthey think they are gonna be
able to accomplish and what theywant to do. And there was a guy
in my class, very first week,you went into his his room in
(24:52):
the barracks and he had I'm notkidding you. I mean, of sticky
notes with all kinds of sayingsand motivational quotes on them
just lining his his wall, hisbunk bed, like, everything.
And, like, eight days in, herang the bell and he left. Wow.
And it's just that idea of mean,you can you can talk a big game,
(25:16):
you can, you can use everyinspirational quote in the book
and you can say say anything,but when push comes to shove, if
you're not actually able toapply yourself and face the toil
that's in front of you, it leadsto failure, it leads to poverty.
Alex Judd (25:31):
Mhmm. Of the resources that I really love to
use for conversations like theone we're having is a resource
called Tom Constable Notes,which it's I think he's in
Plano, Texas, which, I mean, godbless him, he's in Texas. Right?
But he, I think, reads throughthe bible every year and
catalogs and pulls the best ofwhat he reads from multiple
(25:53):
commentaries into this PDFresource and pulls it all
together. And so it's like thisdistilled, like, referencing of
a wide variety of commentaries.
And this is what he said onProverbs four twenty twenty
three. The the lessons, I think,particularly would be helpful
for your friend in coast guardschool. It says, actually
(26:13):
working on a project willproduce a, quote, profit, but
only talking about it will yieldno profit but poverty instead.
Nehemiah not only had a greatvision for the rebuilding of
Jerusalem's walls, but he wenton to work and brought his
vision to pass. The falseteachers that Jude warned about
were like clouds without water.
(26:33):
They promised great things butfailed to deliver them.
Visionaries are a dime a dozen.It is those who follow through
and go to work to bring theirvision to reality that are
successful. And so, I mean, Ifeel like one of the things that
this, cautions us against is bevery, I would say, conservative
in your commitments and get towork. Mhmm.
(26:55):
You know? I think a lot of timeswe try to impress people with
our commitments. And in reality,I would way rather people be
impressed by the results thanthe commitments themselves and
probably shouldn't makingimpressing people one of the
core driving motives at all.
Ben Loy (27:10):
Yeah. Yeah. In the context of business ownership
and leadership, the idea ofpresenting a really good image
and a really inspiring image andcasting vision, I think, can be
so tempting. And like you said,I think oftentimes we want to
impress people with what we'resupposedly committing to and not
(27:30):
necessarily inclined to backthat up with with the
consistency of hard work andtoil and commitment. Mhmm.
Alex Judd (27:37):
The other thing that stands out that I really wanted
to ask you about because, Imean, we had breakfast this
morning and you were discussingthat this has been something
that's really showed up for yourecently is in all toil, there
is profit. I've heard you usethis phrase multiple times in
the past few days, nothing iswasted. Mhmm. Right? Like, so I
think the two really, reallyconnect.
(27:57):
So I'd love for you to doubleclick on that.
Ben Loy (27:59):
Yeah. I mean, I just think if you believe the bible
is true and that God is who hesays he is and and Jesus is who
he says he is, like, we serve aGod who is in the business and
has committed to restoration andredemption. And I think in that,
(28:20):
you see themes throughout theBible and throughout scripture
that that absolutely nothing iswasted. And oftentimes,
anecdotally, in other people'slives, I think, especially when
it comes to leadership and a lotof inspirational speakers, it
seems like their greatestweakness or their greatest fall
or struggle in life turns intothe catalyst that is used for
(28:44):
for God to use them in animpactful way. And I think that
that just rings true across theboard.
Yeah. I mean, I look at my ownlife and, like, the decision to
move back here a year ago. Imoved back here almost back to
Arizona from Texas almost a yearalmost to the day right now. And
I look at my life a year agoand, like, the really hard calls
(29:05):
I had to make to quit my job, tocome back to the state of
Arizona, to dive back intocommunity here, to take risks
with, helping my brother launchhis business. And I just could
never have imagined that I'd besitting where I am today, the
only three hundred and sixtyfive days from now.
(29:25):
But it's because of thedecisions I made at that time
when things were really foggyand uncertain and the
commitments I made to, in manyways, the core values and
convictions that God has givenme that I can sit here today and
say, oh, no, I'm I'mexperiencing fruit and abundance
from those decisions anddirectly from that season. And
(29:46):
even the act of making thosedecisions and commitments in
that season when it wasdifficult, like, God waste
nothing. And, like, he usedthose moments to define my
character and to to grow me.
Alex Judd (29:59):
Yeah. Which is so, I mean, so cool because then I sit
down, like, in my morning prayertime, and I'm like, you're
telling me that if I staysubmitted to God and keep my
eyes on glorifying Him and justlove people in the process
there's nothing that I can dothat will not gain profit. It's
like, yep. It's like, what? It'sliterally that simple.
(30:21):
What's crazy is it like, it isif you read it, it's literally
that simple. Like, submiteverything to God, commit your
way to him, and love people inthe process of doing that, and
there is nothing you will dothat will not profit. And let's
obviously expand the word profitto, like, gain above and beyond
the activity itself. It's whatwe're talking about there. But
(30:43):
what's crazy is it's so simplethat that's why we deviate.
We get bored. We we do differentthings. But the other thing that
I would highlight about what youjust talked about from your
personal experience is I thinkthe number one thing that keeps
leaders sidelined from the lifethat they could be living is
(31:04):
indecision. Right? The the Idon't know what I should do.
I don't know what I'm called todo. I don't know what I want to
do. Use whatever language youwant, and therefore they do
nothing. And what's soempowering about this verse is
if you do it and you work hardat it and and you believe in it,
if it's toil, it will gain aprofit. And so in some ways,
(31:24):
it's kind of saying it matters,but it doesn't really matter.
Mhmm. Right? Like and it'sincorrect to get this
perspective in our head, Ithink, that it's like, man, one
of these ways is gonna beprofitable, create gain for
others, create abundance, createflourishing, and one of these
ways is gonna be, you know, Ithink we picture, like, literal
hell. And it's like, certainly,there are good and bad scenarios
(31:46):
where that could be the case.But more often than not, it's
like, if you can put your heartinto it and you can work really
hard at it, if you do that, itwill it will generate profit.
And that profit could be, hey. Idid that for a year, and I
learned after doing that for ayear a bunch of lessons that
caused me to get a clearervision of what I could or should
be doing. That's profit. Right?Or it could be, man, this is
(32:09):
exactly what I'm supposed to bedoing, and I couldn't have known
that with certainty withoutgetting a year into it.
Ben Loy (32:16):
Mhmm.
Alex Judd (32:17):
What's sad is a lot of us never choose, and
therefore, we never get good atanything.
Ben Loy (32:22):
Yeah. I feel like I've heard more than once from
successful entrepreneurs, like,oh, everybody knows me for this
business, you know, the one thatI I made a $100,000,000 from,
but they don't know about the 12other businesses that I started
before starting the one that wassuccessful. And that idea that
making the decision to pursuesomething and working at it,
(32:44):
like, they would not have beensuccessful in the business that
really took off if they hadn'ttaken the steps to develop the
skills and go through theexperiences they did in the the
12 businesses prior. And I feellike I I hear that consistently
over and over and over again.
Alex Judd (32:58):
For sure. Yeah. I mean, the the business terms for
it is deliberate strategy versusemergent strategy. And the best
case study I've ever heard onthis topic is Honda started
bringing motorcycles to TheUnited States to start trying to
sell motorcycles here, and itwas particularly on the West
Coast. It's been a while sinceI've read this case study, but
they brought motorcycles overhere.
(33:19):
And they thought to themselves,like, we need to bring, like,
the equivalent of a a Harleyover here because we're trying
to sell to Americans. And itwent horribly. Right? Because
Americans, like, if they'rebuying a Harley, they're gonna
buy a Harley. They're not gonnabuy Harley culture is not gonna
be like, oh, but Honda's alittle bit cheaper, and I hear
it's more reliable.
It's like, no, dude. Thesepeople get that tattooed on
(33:41):
their back. Like, they are notgonna buy a Honda. Right? And it
was going very poorly, like,very poorly to the point where
they were saying we're gonnawe're gonna pull out of the West
Coast Of The United Statesbecause these things just aren't
selling.
Well, they were literally inprocess of starting decisions
around pulling out of the WestCoast, and they had a couple
other workers that they justsent with some little Honda
(34:01):
motorbikes to, like, ride aroundtown and stuff like that. And
some like, there had become alot of interest in the little
motorbikes that they were ridingaround that were the exact
opposite of a Harley to thepoint where they're like, a lot
of people are asking where theycan get these. Like, we're
literally getting a lot ofrequests for this. What if we
tried selling this? Boom.
It went crazy. Right? It was nottheir deliberate strategy. Their
(34:25):
deliberate strategy actuallysucked, but they would have
never gotten to their emergentstrategy if they didn't do their
deliberate strategy. And so Ithink that's actually a pretty
good example of it was all toil.
They they were putting theirheart into all of it, and it
eventually led to profit.
Ben Loy (34:40):
Yeah. I just love there is profit in in all hard work.
Alex Judd (34:44):
That's crazy. That
Ben Loy (34:46):
is
Alex Judd (34:46):
crazy.
Ben Loy (34:46):
The word all is in there, like Yeah. Nothing is
yeah. Again, like, nothing iswasted. Right?
Alex Judd (34:51):
Mhmm.
Ben Loy (34:52):
Is there anything else that you wanna say to that
before we move on?
Alex Judd (34:55):
Yeah. I mean, and this is advice or conviction
that I could receive as well.The the second half of the verse
is mere talk tends only topoverty. Mhmm. Right?
We can ideate, and ideationconversations are really fun,
and we can, you know, talk aboutwhat we wish we could do or talk
about the things that could bereally cool if we did it, or we
could talk about, you know, whatour business would do if we
(35:17):
started a business. And thattalk literally tends the
trajectory of talking only goestowards poverty. Right? Means
that you have no bread to put onthe table is what the message
says. What it say?
It says the message version sayshard work pays off. Mere talk
puts no bread on the table. It'slike you've never put bread on
(35:37):
the table by just talking. NowEugene Peterson probably wrote
that when podcasts weren't athing. Even the podcast though,
we can all if we just record apodcast and don't get strategic
and intentional, hard work ofthe head about how to
distribute, how to market, howto reach specific customer or
things like that, I've donepodcasts before where all you do
(35:58):
is talk and nothing else, and itdoesn't go, it doesn't profit.
Ben Loy (36:01):
Yeah. And I think in today's day and age, talk can
often look like, I mean, and youalready alluded to it, we live
we just live in the age ofinformation overload. Yeah. And,
yeah, I mean, you could sit downand and listen to every podcast
out there about training for arace, training for a half or a
(36:23):
marathon or something like that.And you can order all the gear
and look at it.
You can listen to every Hubermanlab to optimize your sleep and
your diet, but ultimately, like,if you never actually put in the
consistent grind of runningmiles upon miles every week in
preparation for it, you're nevergoing to get there.
Alex Judd (36:42):
Yeah. It actually I keep referencing this
conversation, so I'm excited tohave him on the podcast. But the
conversation we had with yourbrother the other day, who's a
business owner, is one of thethings he said that I thought
was really sharp for hisbusiness is he said, man, the
minute we actually put somethingout to the marketplace, the
feedback loop exponentiallyincreases, which is so true.
Right? We can chat about thethings that we wanna release to
(37:05):
the marketplace for literallyyears on end and not receive any
real feedback.
The minute you start gettingfeedback that leads to customer
centric improvement is when youactually put something out there
and do something. Yep. Right?Okay. We could talk more on this
for a very long time.
You go with the next one. Cool.
Ben Loy (37:20):
So the next one I had was '19.
Alex Judd (37:23):
Okay.
Ben Loy (37:24):
And this is the one I was I, like, let out an oof
while we were preparing Yeah.Before this because I was like,
I've read Proverbs so many timesand I feel like every time I
read it, there's always one thatI'm like, I like didn't don't I
didn't remember this one beingin here and it just hits me hard
for some reason in this season.
Alex Judd (37:40):
Yeah. I didn't know which one you were talking about
when we were preparing but nowI'm looking it up and I'm I'm
pumped to talk about
Ben Loy (37:46):
this. This will be great. Yeah. So Proverbs
eighteen one, one who isolateshimself pursues selfish desires.
He rebels against all soundwisdom.
And I just my note that I wrotedown was just isolation equals
rebellion, which I yeah, I justnever thought to frame it that
way, but it makes so much sense.And not only rebellion, but,
(38:08):
like, you're rebelling againstall sound wisdom. And Proverbs
one says, like, the beginning ofknowledge, beginning of wisdom
is the fear of the Lord. So it'slike you are actively rebelling
against submitting to God andHis authority by isolating
yourself as a leader. And I'mlike, man, that hits hard.
Alex Judd (38:26):
Okay. So here's what I'd like to do because I think
sometimes we can use words likerebellion, right? You know,
we're trying to overthrow God'swill or things like that, and
it's like that but when you'redoing it though, that isn't
practically what it feels likeat all. So I love, you know, and
I'll share one too, but do youhave a practical example of
(38:47):
where maybe you've fallen you'vebeen unwise as it relates to
this proverb? Mhmm.
Ben Loy (38:52):
I think in previous seasons and really even just
growing up, like, the way that Iwas wired and the environment I
was in, I was really, in mymind, really good at internally
processing a lot. Mhmm. So,like, I wasn't an oral
processor. I was I I still amintroverted. I think it just
looks different, but, like, Iwas a pretty introverted kid,
(39:13):
and so there was a lot that Ijust processed through on my own
and in my own thinking andthrough just, like, rumination
that I and I think I carriedthat disposition into my
adulthood, and I I probablycarried it farther than I needed
to after becoming a Christianand learning what healthy
(39:35):
community and accountabilitylooks like, and then having that
healthy community andaccountability.
And then I think, again, I thinkthat disposition carried farther
probably than it should have,like years farther. Because I
would always, I mean, even in mydecision to move to Texas to
continue to pursue flightschool, like, was a very
(39:56):
turbulent time for me, mydecision to get out of the Coast
Guard. I don't even, I don'tregret any of those decisions
and like, I think we've talkedabout
Alex Judd (40:03):
previously All things are profitable.
Ben Loy (40:04):
All things are profitable. Yeah. Like nothing
is wasted and and the Lord usedthe difficulties in those
pursuits to form me in so manydifferent ways and so I don't
look back with regret at all,but I do look back sometimes
and, like, the nature of where Iwas when I was living in Oregon
and then making the decision toget out of the coast guard is I
(40:26):
didn't have church community, Iwas isolated, I was in a small
town. And so all of the peoplethat could weigh into my life
and that I had gotten to knowthroughout my life were from a
distance. And while I think thatthat insight is really valuable,
there's only so much that theycan really weigh into when I'm
(40:49):
the one painting the picturefrom a point of isolation of
like what my life looks like andhow I'm thinking through things.
And so I I like, I look at thatdecision. I also look at, again,
like my my time in Texas andagain, another season where I
was like a a little moreisolated. I didn't have as many
roots in Houston as I did inArizona and other parts, and so
(41:11):
I wasn't as well connected andlife was busy. And so making
decisions from a position ofisolation versus just making
decisions from a position ofstrength and being surrounded by
wise counsel, I think led toprobably some more heartache
than there needed to be.
Alex Judd (41:30):
Yeah, like the way that you took that because I
think so often there's a lot ofconversation today around the
role of vulnerability ineffective leadership and I think
it's critically important. But alot of times, the way we frame
content around man beingvulnerable as a leader is like,
because that's gonna make youmore trustworthy to your team.
(41:52):
But it's like, that is a sidebenefit. But in reality, it's
also there are seasons where youare vulnerable. And if anything,
it's just humility, like havingan accurate viewpoint of
yourself to be able to bevulnerable with people to say
like, I actually don't know whatto do here.
And I think a lot of timesleaders isolate because they
don't like looking like someonewho doesn't know what to do. And
(42:14):
so they cut themselves off frompeople so that the people can
continue to have the image ofthem as someone who knows what
to do. And meanwhile, they just,like, get in their little hole
and, again, isolate. Right?That's exactly what they do.
Ben Loy (42:29):
And this verse too, I mean, one who isolates himself
pursues selfish desires. Yeah.And, I mean, that idea that you
were just speaking into ofvulnerability is extreme or lack
of vulnerability is actuallyextremely prideful because
normally I think it is imagebased. It's the what will they
think of me or I want to lookstrong, I want to look like I'm
(42:49):
acting from a position ofstrength when I don't feel
strong right now. And sofighting against vulnerability
and authenticity with the peoplearound you is actually selfish.
Alex Judd (43:00):
Yeah. What am I guarding here? Is in some ways
what we should ask. I thinkabout there was probably, you
know, year two, year three ofthe business where I started to
experience some stress aroundsome certain decisions, and I
like, there were some certainstrategies that we were pursuing
and going all in on that I I wasquestioning and I had a lot of
(43:21):
questions about, but I I didn'tknow exactly who I could go to.
The way I evaluated, I I likehad a host of mentors that I
knew I could talk to.
I I mean, there's, you know, anabundance of really really smart
business leaders. I And kind of
Ben Loy (43:32):
thought about who I
Alex Judd (43:33):
could call. And with all of them, I was like, well,
they just wouldn't understand.And it was one of two things.
They either wouldn't understandthe context. Why?
Because I hadn't been living incommunity with them to keep them
updated on the context ofeverything leading up to this
decision. Right? Which is whycommunity over time, not just in
crisis, is so valuable. But thenthe second thing that I think is
(43:56):
really important, especially theday and age we live in, is I I
would say they just wouldn'tunderstand because I was like,
they might, you know, have alittle bit of a different
theological bent than I do as itrelates to this decision, or
they might, you know, thinkabout business way differently
than I do, or or, you know, Icould think of a number of
reasons why they just wouldn'tunderstand why I'm doing the
(44:17):
things that I'm doing in thisscenario. Mhmm.
And they'd probably advise me totake a different course or
something like that. And, youknow, now looking back with a
little bit more wisdom, I'd belike, maybe there's a reason
they don't understand. Right?Yeah. And and I think it's we
should be very shrewd anddiscriminating with the advice
we allow ourselves to receive.
But the thing that, you know, Ilook back and I say, that was
(44:40):
pretty prideful is, okay, theymight have a different theology
than you, and you might evendisagree with their theology.
Just because you get theiradvice doesn't mean you have to
take it.
Ben Loy (44:47):
Right.
Alex Judd (44:47):
Right? You could just listen and just be like, okay. I
respectfully disagree. I didn'teven wanna hear it. And so what
was really going on there isexactly exactly what the proverb
says is, oh, you just want to dowhat you want to do.
Yeah. Is what we're talkingabout here, you know? My
Ben Loy (45:00):
thought is when I hear, oh, they they might differ
slightly with me in theology ordisposition. I'm like, good.
Like, go talk to those people.
Alex Judd (45:08):
Yeah. You know? That's so that's so good. Yeah.
That's a great point.
Where were you two or threeyears I knew you two or three
years ago, but I wasn't talkingto you. Right? I was isolating.
Right? But, I mean, I I have amentor that he actually says,
like, whenever I'm facing a bigdecision, he's like, I wanna
call the most, like,conservative, straight laced,
(45:30):
like, just protect what youcurrently have person I know.
And then he said, and then Ialso wanna swing to the other
side and talk to the most like,just aggressive, bold visionary
that he know that I know. And hesaid, not because I'm gonna
necessarily wholesale followeither of them, but because
there's probably nuggets oftruth in both of them that I'll
(45:51):
be able to incorporate into awise decision that I can believe
in. But I think and I think itshould be a future podcast of
some some sort is gray thinking.I I learned about this from a
book called the contrarian'sguide to leadership, that our
friend, Seth, recommended to me.So did Jim Mullins.
(46:13):
And the which don't you lovethat title? The Contrarian's
Guide to the I was like, sign meup. That sounds pretty good. But
he talks about, like, we sooften try to frame things
through black and white. Like,it's either the visionary way is
the right approach or theconservative way is the right
approach.
And he's like, no. In reality,there's probably things both of
those mentors or or, counselorsare saying that is true, and
(46:33):
that should be incorporated intoa gray decision for how to move
forward in some ways. But if youjust wanna do what you wanna do,
there's no reason to listen toeither of them. Right.
Ben Loy (46:43):
Okay. Let's dive, in the couple minutes that we have
left. Let's dive back into yousaid you had some thoughts on
the idea of rebellion andrebelling against all sound
wisdom?
Alex Judd (46:55):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess what I was saying there is
when I was saying, well, theyjust wouldn't understand. Like,
let's be very clear. I I did notthink I was being unwise or an
idiot in that scenario, and Icertainly didn't think I was
being rebellious in thatscenario. I I wasn't shaking my
fist at God being like, no way.
I'm it was just like I wasmoving really fast. You know? I
(47:19):
I didn't wanna have an hour anda half phone call to catch
everyone up on everything I wasdoing, and I didn't really feel
like the decisions that I wasmaking, like, any of those
individuals that I'm thinkingabout would basically fully
agree with me. And so I waslike, I'm just gonna keep doing
what I'm doing, and we'll seehow it works And, you know, it
wasn't catastrophic. Right?
You know, we're still here, andthings are still going well. But
(47:42):
I could have saved myself andothers heartache if I had
preemptively had some of thosediscussions. Because what's
interesting is I ended up havingthose discussions. Wisdom always
finds a way of working its wayback around. Like, if you avoid
it Yeah.
Because wisdom is always rootedin reality, and reality always
catches up to you. So I ended uphaving the conversations. It was
(48:05):
just a little bit later, andtherefore, little bit more money
was spent and a little bit moreheartache was invested. It's
like, man, if I could have justdone this earlier, probably
could have saved a lot of time,energy, heartache.
Ben Loy (48:15):
Do you think the lesson would have hit as harder,
though?
Alex Judd (48:18):
Oh, gosh. Come on, Ben. This is supposed to be a
diagnosis of my issue. I mean,no. Yeah.
Because the lessons were alreadyreadily available to me. And so
now I think wisdom now comes in,okay, buddy, you're gonna make
those mistakes again? We've nowidentified mistakes that you
(48:38):
made. This goes back to ourfailure episode. Now the
question I I feel like, youknow, we focus on rate of
recovery.
I've owned those mistakes andmoved forward from them. I've
had actually particularconversations with those mentors
about the way that I thoughtabout them in that season, how
it was incorrect, and how I nowthink about them. And I've taken
active steps to, you know, havepeople that have context on
(48:59):
decisions that I'm making, I'mnot, like, doing it just in
crisis. So, you know, and I'vereceived grace for it. Right?
Praise God for that. Now wisdomis, okay. Are we gonna do this
again? Or when you face similardecisions, am I gonna use some
version of the phrase they justwouldn't understand? Mhmm.
I I heard someone recently say,and this is a guy who could say
this too. It was, Brian Houston.You know who that is? He was the
(49:22):
lead pastor at Hillsong. Mhmm.
Right? That unfortunately and hewould say this. His tenure at
Hillsong ended in disgrace.Mhmm. Right?
He did he just recently releaseda two part podcast lesson on
Humpty Pastor. Humpty Dumptyfell off the wall. Humpty Dumpty
had a great fall, and all theking's horses and all the king's
men couldn't put Humpty backtogether again. Right? Really
great lesson.
(49:43):
And, you know, I'm hisperspective on that is you
uniquely valuable. Right?Because it's probably one of the
most exposed and, like, widelytalked about falls, in our time.
Right? Is just his fall inpeople's eyes and what they
perceived him to be.
One of the things that he saidin that that was so good, he
said, there's good mistakes,there's bad mistakes, and
(50:06):
there's tragic mistakes. Andgood mistakes are ones that
other people make that we learnfrom. Bad mistakes are ones that
we have to make, but we learnfrom. Tragic mistakes are ones
that we make, but we never learnfrom. And there you go.
It's like yeah. That and that'swhat happens without an
abundance of counselors. Like,we doom ourselves to tragic
(50:26):
mistakes where we keep doing thesame thing and nothing different
ever happens.
Ben Loy (50:31):
Mhmm. Man, well, we are out of time to die What
Alex Judd (50:34):
a brilliant no day. Dive into.
Ben Loy (50:36):
But I will say, like, I mean, is our second time doing
this. This is, I think, quicklybecoming one of my favorite
versions of what we're doinghere on the podcast. And in the
spirit of not living inisolation, like, if you're
listening to this podcast, thisis something that you could and
honestly, like, should be doingwith the people around you in
your daily life. Open up theword, a passage. I mean, pick
(50:57):
the proverbs and just talkthrough them with people.
I think I find it personallyedifying. I think Alex would
would agree.
Alex Judd (51:04):
Oh, yeah. And, I mean, I learn something every
time too. And and that, like,vulnerability, it's kind of
vulnerable to walk intosomething and be like, I don't
know. I don't really know whatwe're gonna talk about as it
relates to auxin and resources.And Yep.
But you learn something in theuncovering of things. And, I
mean, we live in this time wherewe have Google and Tom Constable
notes, and I don't just trust AIas your source for commentaries,
(51:28):
but it's such a powerful timethat we can learn so much and
grow so much in community.
Ben Loy (51:32):
Yeah. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation, and
I'm looking forward to more.
Alex Judd (51:35):
Same. Thanks, Ben. Yep. Well, there you have it.
Thanks so much for joining usfor this episode.
If you want any of theinformation or resources that we
mentioned, that's all in theshow notes. Hey. Before you go,
could I ask you for one quickfavor? Could you subscribe,
rate, and review this podcastepisode? Your feedback is what
(51:56):
helps our team engage in asequence of never ending
improvement.
We wanna amplify what's valuableto you and obviously reduce or
even remove the things thataren't. Also, you leaving a
positive review is what helps usconnect with, build trust with,
and serve other leaders aroundthe country. So thanks in
advance for helping us out onthat front. Are you a leader
(52:17):
that wants to grow your businessin a healthy way, serve people
exceptionally well, and glorifyGod in the process? Go to
pathforgrowth.com to get moreinformation about our community
of impact driven leaders andschedule a call with our team.
Hey, thank you so much to thePath for Growth team, Kyle
Cummings and the crew atPodCircle, and the remarkable
(52:39):
leaders that are activelyengaged in the path for growth
community. Y'all are the peoplethat make this podcast possible.
Y'all know this. We're rootingfor you. We're praying for you.
We wanna see you win. Remember,my strength is not for me. Your
strength is not for you. Ourstrength is for service. Let's
go.
Let's go. Let's go.
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