March 11, 2025 • 47 mins
If you want to make a sustainable impact, you need to embrace patience. In this episode, Alex continues the conversation about the price of impact by examining 3 beliefs every patient leader possesses. He also breaks down the difference between first, second, and third order consequences, shares real-life examples of practicing patience, and explains what leaders can learn from the Grand Canyon. Make sure to sign up for our weekly growth guide to access all the resources mentioned in this episode.
Struggling to make success in your business repeatable? Path for Growth created a free workbook and video course to help you operationalize—so you can build consistency, reduce stress, and create space for growth. Download it now at pathforgrowth.com/free-downloads.
Episode Recap:
- Impact-driven leaders must be willing to wait (1:11)
- What are some of the things that a patient leader knows? (3:42)
- 1. Patient leaders understand the oppositional nature of first order and second and third order consequences (8:10)
- First order consequences are clunky and uncomfortable, but second order consequences are growth and progress (15:01)
- 2. Patient leaders know the difference between productive and unproductive discomfort (21:22)
- Ask yourself these questions when you’re feeling discomfort (27:37)
- 3. Patient leaders believe in the compounding value of staying on one path (40:08)
Make your business feel less chaotic and more predictable. Get the free workbook and video course from Path for Growth to start building the clarity and structure you need for healthy growth. Download it today at pathforgrowth.com/free-downloads.
Resources:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Judd (00:00):
Impact driven leaders never stay in the same place,
but they always stay on the samepath. Whenever we talk about
patients, what do impact drivenleaders always get concerned
about? What do they always getworried about? What do they get
anxious about? About?
It's misappropriated anxiety,but it's anxiety nonetheless. I
don't wanna get stagnant. Idon't wanna get complacent. I
(00:21):
don't just wanna stay where I'mat. That's not good, right?
But what do impact drivenleaders actually do? Well, if
you're gonna make an impact,what do you have to do? You
don't stay in the same place. Iwould never argue that you
should stay in the same placebecause that is complacency.
That is stagnancy.
That is stultification. But whatdo you have to do? You have to
stay on the same path. You gottamake sure that you're making
(00:43):
deposits into the same account.You gotta make sure that you're
chopping the same tree.
You gotta make sure that you'removing in the same direction
over an extended period of time.Well, hey there, I'm Alex Judd,
the founder of Path for Growth,and this is the Path for Growth
podcast. As a business, we existto help impact driven leaders
(01:03):
like you step into who they werecreated to be so that others
benefit and God is glorified.Let's go. Well, we're on part
two of this series on the nonnegotiable price of impact.
And we always say that thispodcast and this business being
Path for Growth exists forimpact driven leaders and that
to be impact driven means thatyou're motivated by this crazy
(01:26):
belief that you can make adifference. But in that, like
we're talking not about impactdriven people, we're talking
about impact driven leaders. Andso let's just remember that to
be an impact driven leader, youare committing to making a
difference within, through, andfor other people. We say it all
the time on this podcast in somany ways. When it comes to
(01:49):
leadership, people are the pointand you can't have leadership
without relationship.
And so it's in that that we'vebeen asking a question about
impact driven leadership. What'sthe price of making an impact?
Because one of the kind of baselevel assertions that we're
making and one of theundergirding beliefs that
informs everything we do is thatimpact, the ability for you to
(02:12):
make a difference on otherpeople is incredibly valuable.
And if it's incredibly valuable,then there's a cost associated
with it. So the question that weare kind of asking is, well,
what's the cost?
What's the price of that impact?And as we've already
articulated, there's so manyways that you could come at that
question, but we're reallyfocusing in and zeroing in on
(02:34):
what I kind of have deemed as anon negotiable. That's right. I
think what we're focusing onover the course of this series
is a non negotiable price ofimpact. And that's why I think
it's so crucial for us to spendtime understanding the nature of
this thing, really selfreflecting and evaluating how do
we hold this virtue or where dowe need to grow in this virtue
(02:55):
and ultimately finding andseeking ways to practice this
virtue in our daily life and inour daily leadership.
And so what is that nonnegotiable virtue? Well, the
virtue that we've beendiscussing is the virtue of
patience. And what did we say aformal definition of patience
is? In episode one, we saidpatience is the capacity to
(03:18):
tolerate challenges or delayswithout getting upset. And maybe
even more than without gettingupset, it's without hitting the
eject button.
It's without tapping out. It'swithout saying I'm done. It's
the ability to endure. And if wewere to really make that
definition concise and portable,what is patience? It's being
(03:39):
willing to wait.
And so it's in that context thattoday, we're gonna look at
principally what are some of thethings that a patient leader
knows. That if we are going tobe leaders that practice
patients personally andorganizationally, what are the
things that we principally haveto keep in mind? And I think
(04:01):
this is so critically importantbecause regardless of where you
are at in your personal life, myhope for you is that you have
hopes of your own, that there'sthings that you desire, that
there's things that you longfor, that there's things that
you're aiming at, that there'sthings that you're excited
about, but that's notnecessarily your present
reality. Now this does not meanthat you can't and shouldn't be
(04:23):
content and joyful in yourpresent reality. One of the
things we wanna do is we wannabe deeply content while
simultaneously pursuing being aleader that's outrageously
growth oriented.
And so we're gonna be content,we're gonna be present, we're
gonna be grateful, but we'realso gonna be excited and
anticipatory for what's comingin the future. And it's in that
that we are called to be peoplethat wait. And we're not just
(04:46):
called to be people that waitlike we're slogging it out, that
we're putting in our time orsomething like that, but rather
we're called to be people thatwait while exhibiting the fruit
of the spirit. Love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness,
gentleness, faithfulness, andself control. But But it's also
a virtue that is undoubtedlyrequired organizationally.
(05:07):
Think about it. If you are inthe game of developing leaders,
what's that gonna take? Well,practically, it's gonna take
time because it doesn't happenovernight. And if it's gonna
take time, what's it gonna takefrom you specifically? Well,
it's gonna take patience.
If you're pursuing a long termvision to use Jim Collins'
language, a big, hairy,audacious goal, if you're trying
(05:30):
to build something that is trulybigger than yourself and beyond
yourself, well, what's thatgonna require? It's gonna
require time and from you, it'sgoing to require patience. If
you are trying to bring aboutsomething that's innovative,
that's new, that's creative tothe marketplace, that you're
gonna try and change people'sperceptions, and you're gonna
(05:50):
try to add value in new ways asan entrepreneur. Well, what's
that gonna take? It's gonna taketime, and because it's gonna
take time, it's gonna takepatience.
And not just your willingness towait, but the way you wait in
many ways can have massiveramifications for whether that
endeavor, that project, thatrelationship, that personal goal
(06:11):
succeeds or fails. And so it'sin that context that there's a
few things that I think it's socrucial for us to reflect on and
remember principally about thevirtue of patience, and we're
gonna walk through three ofthem. I'm gonna give them to you
high level, and then we'll diveinto each. I also wanna make
sure that, if you haven't yetgotten on the email list to
(06:33):
receive the growth guide, thatyou go ahead and do that because
man, that growth guide is gonnalay out each of these
principles. It's gonna lay outall the points that we discuss
on this podcast.
There will be applicationquestions on there, and it's
really gonna detail this entirepatient series in a way that's
really digestible, it's reallyshareable, but it's also
organized in such a way that youcan come back and reference this
stuff later because maybe you'rein a season right now that isn't
(06:56):
requiring outrageous amounts ofpatients, but I guarantee you
that if you're in leadership,your season is coming. And if
that's the case, I wanna makesure you have this to be able to
look back on your notes. So makesure you download the growth
guide. If you're not yet on thatemail list, like, so many of you
are, which is so cool, just makesure you click the link that's
in the show notes to get on thatlist. Okay.
Let's go ahead and jump into thethree realities that we're gonna
(07:19):
walk through. Number one, whatdo you need to understand? You
need to understand theoppositional nature of first
order and second and third orderconsequences. Number two, what
do you need to understand? Youneed to understand the
difference between productiveand unproductive discomfort.
That's where the growth guide isgonna be really helpful because
we actually have a table thatillustrates these differences in
(07:40):
a really visual way. And thennumber three, the compounding
value of staying on the samepath. So this is what we're
gonna break down, and the way Iwant you to be thinking about
this is in an evaluative and areflective way. Just think to
yourself, man, do my actions inthis season, in my life and
leadership reflect that Iunderstand this reality? Because
(08:03):
that's what I really feel likeI'm presenting to you today is
just three realities thatpatient people and patient
leaders understand.
So let's go ahead and jumpstraight into number one. We
said number one is patientleaders understand the
oppositional nature of firstorder and second and third order
consequences. Now the place thatI probably learned this most
(08:24):
comprehensively was from RayDalio's book, Principles, that
is really just a a referencetool in so many ways for
principles about life, business,and leadership that's incredibly
valuable. But I pulledparticularly the section that I
learned this from, and I wantedto read it to you and then we'll
dive into the examples. Sohere's what Ray Dalio says about
(08:45):
this idea of first and secondand third order consequences.
Recognizing the higher levelconsequences nature optimizes
for, I've come to see thatpeople who overweigh the first
order consequences of theirdecisions and ignore the effects
of second and subsequent orderconsequences rarely reach their
goals. This is because firstorder consequences often have
(09:07):
opposite desirability fromsecond order consequences,
resulting in big mistakes indecision making. For example,
the first order consequence ofexercise, pain, and time spent
are commonly consideredundesirable, while the second
order consequences, betterhealth and more attractive
appearance, are desirable.Similarly, food that tastes good
(09:27):
is often bad for you and viceversa. Quite often, the first
order consequences are thetemptations that cost us what we
really want, and sometimes theyare the barriers that stand in
our way.
It's almost as though naturesorts us by throwing us trick
choices that have both types ofconsequences and penalizing
those who make their decisionson the basis of the first order
(09:48):
consequences alone. By contrast,people who choose what they
really want, what they deeplywant, and avoid the temptations
and get over the pains thatdrive them away from what they
really want are much more likelyto have successful lives. Now
what's interesting about this isthis is written from a secular
viewpoint in many ways, but Ithink there's faith principles
(10:10):
all over this thing. And what issomething that we said in the
first episode, what we said thatpatience is really related to
and equated with and in theworld cloud of the biblical
ideas of humility, forbearance,self control, and faithfulness
and endurance. And that'sexactly what's being articulated
here is what do we often seemost clearly and most easily?
(10:33):
Well, what we see is the firstorder consequence. In the
example that he gave, right, wesee and we viscerally and
physically understand the firstorder consequence of going back
to the gym for the first time.It's like, man, this is gonna
hurt. I feel lazy and I don'twanna do this. I'm gonna be sore
the next day.
I haven't been there in a whileand I don't feel good going to
(10:53):
the gym whenever I haven't beenin a while. And it's gonna
require a ton of energy. I'vegotta make time in my schedule.
It's gonna feel clunky. And sowe see that very viscerally, and
we don't even just see it.
We feel it. What we don't oftensee as viscerally or feel as
viscerally is the second orthird order consequences,
because what are the second andthird order consequences of
(11:14):
going to the gym? Well, secondorder consequences are energy,
momentum. And what's crazy is, Idon't know if you feel the same
way, but oftentimes, if I go tothe gym, that's a healthy choice
that promotes future healthychoices. Like when I go to the
gym, you would think it's like,oh, now I'm gonna go splurge and
eat whatever I want.
But it's like, when I go to thegym, I actually eat healthier.
And then what are the thirdorder consequences? Well, over
(11:34):
time, if you keep going to thegym, you're gonna be more
healthy. You're gonna have moreof a positive self image. You're
gonna have more confidence.
Right? And there's so many otherthird and even fourth order
consequences associated withthis, initial decision to go to
(13:31):
the gym. But you see theoppositional nature. The first
order consequence is discomfort,struggle, and inconvenience. And
it's only if we have a vision ofthe second and third order
consequences of this choice thatwe actually get to experience
the benefit.
And you see why that requirespatience, because we gotta get
over the hurdle of the firstorder in order to experience the
(13:54):
second and third order. Nowlet's just think about the
opposite scenario. If we decideto skip the gym, if we say, oh
man, I'm tired, I've had a fullday, I've been busy, right? I
didn't sleep well last night. Ijust wanna stay home and have a
cheeseburger, right?
I'm not gonna go to the gym.First order consequence of that
decision. The first orderconsequence of that decision is
(14:14):
comfort, relaxation,convenience, and very
practically a cheeseburger. Soit actually feels pretty good.
But what's interesting is in thesame way, what's the
oppositional nature of thesecond and third order
consequence?
Well, the second orderconsequence is gonna be almost a
mirror image of the first orderconsequence. It's gonna be
laziness. It's gonna becontinuing to not going to the
(14:36):
gym because lack of disciplinebegets lack of discipline. And
it's gonna be poor eating, likewe said, cheeseburger. And then
the third order consequence,unhealth, poor self image,
complacency creep.
Right? Where it's like, man,we're complacent in this area.
We've proven to ourselves thatwe are that type of person, and
we start to see that creep intoour marriage, our parenting, our
(14:57):
work, all of it. Right? And westart, instead of becoming just
complacent in this one area, webecome complacent in other
areas.
You see how comfort on the frontend results in detrimental
consequences on the back end,Rather, discomfort on the front
end results in health and growthon the back end. And we know
that, yeah, practically thatmakes sense at the gym. But also
(15:21):
I think we all kind ofintuitively understand, man,
this idea of first and second,third order consequences
transcends our decision to go tothe gym. So what's a parallel
arena where this takes place?Well, let's talk about working
in the business versus workingon the business.
In so many ways, I think forbusiness leaders and business
owners particularly, especiallyif you're in a business that you
(15:44):
are the founder of that hasgrown over time, working on the
business for you is like goingto the gym. Because if you're
the founder, it's like you builtthe business by working in the
business, and now you know thatwhat got you here isn't gonna
get you there, so you need to donew things to get new results.
However, it feels a lot likegoing to the gym for the first
time. And why is that? Well,because the first order
(16:06):
consequences of working on thebusiness, what are they?
It's thankless, right? Ingeneral, especially if you're
doing this by yourself, which Iwouldn't recommend, that's why
our third fundamental is createa healthy and robust leadership
team. But if you are doing it byyourself, right, like no one
sees you doing it. And there'sno one there to say, man, you
did a great job. Thanks so muchfor doing that.
Conversely, if you work in thebusiness, everyone sees it. It's
(16:29):
hidden. It feels clunky. Itfeels challenging, and it feels
uncomfortable. Those are thefirst order consequences of
thinking strategically, workingon your business, starting to
get process and focus and visioninto your business, starting to
make sure that you've got thestructure to keep you where your
growth takes you.
First order consequences,thankless, hidden, clunky,
(16:49):
challenging, uncomfortable. NowI hope you've got the growth
guide because the way this laysout in the table is really
visually helpful, I think. Whatare the second order
consequences? Progress, rhythm,and momentum. We see it all the
time, right?
This is what we do with businessowners is we help them establish
rhythms and stay accountable torhythms of not just working in
their business, but working ontheir business. And for a
(17:11):
particular stage of businessowner, like, this is one of the
primary value adds we andparticularly our one on one
coaches provide. And I see itall the time, right? When
they're first doing it, it'shard. And oftentimes it takes a
little while to get into themotions, right, to start going
to the gym, to start exercising.
They're figuring it out for thefirst time. But then they look
up, and honestly, it's typicallywithin like that first three
(17:33):
months that they start to getsome reps in, they start to get
some deposits in, and they lookup and they say, Oh my gosh,
things are actually better. Andcertainly things are not all
that they could be quite yet,and there may still be a little
bit chaos and there may be alittle bit of disorganization,
but I'm starting to seeprogress. This is the equivalent
of starting to see yourself loseweight. Right?
It's like, I have hope that thatour current reality, business
(17:57):
that is chaos, disorganized, noone knows who reports to who,
there's not clear flow ofdelegation, the leader is
overburdened and overstressed.They they should have hope that
it's like, I don't think italways has to be that way, and
therefore, they start to getrhythm and momentum. But what's
so cool is that's just thesecond order consequences. If
they have patience and if theycontinue to follow through, what
(18:18):
do they experience? Results?
Like they start to just saylike, oh my gosh, I got our
cashflow report and it's thebest it's ever been. We're more
profitable than we've ever been.And decentralization, I have
people on my team now that aremaking decisions actively and
proactively that I used to make.Reduce stress for the leader,
(18:38):
sustainable growth for thebusiness that isn't all
dependent on one leader. That'sthird order consequences of
working on the business.
But now, well, let's look at theopposite, working in the
business. What does it feellike? It's familiar. You get
recognition. You get a dopaminehit because you know exactly
whenever you finish the thing,and you get credit.
So it feels so good. That's afirst order consequence, right?
(19:00):
It's a positive first orderconsequence that's outrageously
tempting. What are the secondand third order consequences?
Well, the second orderconsequences are stress,
frustration, and firefighting.
And sadly, people justexperience these consequences.
And if they haven't been exposedto other businesses where they
see it operate differently, theyjust think that's the way that
(19:22):
it is and that's the way it'salways gonna be. And ultimately
what that devolves into is lackof growth for the business,
because if it's all contingenton one person working in the
business, it will cap outeventually because that person
is limited. Centralization,they're not building capacity,
they're building dependency. Andthen finally, what is it?
(19:44):
This is probably actually afourth or fifth order
consequence. A feeling from theowner typically that they're
trapped, that they've builtsomething that they don't even
want anymore, but they have zeroway to get out because it all
depends on them. And that'sreally devastating, right? But
you can see how thisunderstanding of first, second,
and third order consequencesdirectly overlays to what we're
(20:10):
talking about with patience.Because it's actually in the
etymology of patience that it'sdirectly tied to the word
suffering, and it can be equatedto the ability to tolerate pain.
And so what does the patientleader do when they see an
activity that they're like, Ithink that's the right thing to
do. And why do I think that'sthe right thing to do? Whether
(20:31):
it's to work on the business,whether it's to make that
investment, whether it's todouble down on a specific line
of business, whether it's toinnovate into a new area,
whether it's to launch a newbranch, they say, I think it's
the right thing to do. And whydo I think that it's the right
thing to do? Well, it's thiscombination of intuition, but
also successfully use clues.
And I've seen other peopleoperate in this area, and its
(20:51):
mission and values align. Itfeels like the right thing to
do. Well, what's the first orderconsequence of doing that thing?
Often the first orderconsequence is discomfort. It
feels clunky, it feelsuncomfortable, it feels chaotic.
But what does a patient leaderdo? They say, Ma'am, I'm gonna
wade through the first order ofconsequences because I know that
(21:11):
on the backside of that firstorder of consequences, if its
mission and values align, arethe second and third order
consequences, and those areoften the opposite of what I'm
going to experience right offthe bat. And this is wild to
think about. Like, think aboutthe things in your life that you
avoid because they'reuncomfortable, and then think to
(21:34):
yourself, what are the secondand third order consequences of
those things? And this isactually an exercise in vision
capturing and ultimately foryourself vision casting because
oftentimes we're way better atseeing the discomfort associated
with the first order than we areat seeing the pleasure and
(21:56):
growth and service and impactthat will eventually come if we
endure to the second and thirdorder.
And so we're better at picturingthe immediate, which makes
sense, right? That's what we'remost used to seeing. What are
patient leaders good at? Man,they can envision, they can
imagine, they can picture, hey,it's not gonna be the first
order. The first order is gonnalook very different than this.
(22:17):
The immediate is going to feelvery different than this, but
they can get in their mind'seye. They can get this idea of
like, but if I endure, if Icontinue on, I've got this image
of how the second and thirdorder will be directly
oppositional to that. And inmany ways, we're starting with
the principle, but this is alsoa practice, right? That when you
(22:39):
engage that practice, what areyou gonna see expand? Your
patience.
Because you're not just waitingthrough discomfort for the sake
of waiting through discomfort.You are now waiting through
discomfort because you've got avision of a hopeful, better,
more impactful, more growthoriented future. So what do
patient leaders know? They knowthe oppositional nature of first
(23:00):
and second and third orderconsequences. That brings us to
the second thing that patientleaders know.
Patient leaders know andunderstand the difference
between productive andunproductive discomfort. So
we've already said this, andwe've hit on this really quite a
bit in this episode already.Patience is the capacity to
(23:22):
tolerate challenges or delayswithout getting upset, right?
And we really double down onthis in the first thing that
leaders understand. Patience isby nature uncomfortable.
And really, if you're going tobe patient, what we're talking
about you being patient is beingpatient in everything being
great and exactly how you wantit for the remainder of time.
(23:44):
No, that doesn't require anypatience. What we're talking
about here is I have thesethings that I'm anticipating. I
have these things that I'mexcited about. I have these
things that I'm hoping for, thatI want to see come to pass, but
they're not here yet.
My present isn't equated to mydesired future, and so therefore
I am called to be patient. Butin that patience, there's a
(24:04):
tension, there's a dissonance,and I feel uncomfortable. And we
talk about it all the time thatgrowth and comfort never
coexist. So in some ways it'slike, man, if I'm uncomfortable,
there's a pretty good chancethat that's right where I need
to be because it's in that stateof discomfort that there's
potential for me to experiencereally life giving growth. But
(24:29):
listen to how I said that realquick, because it's directly
related to what the patientleader knows.
It's when I'm experiencingdiscomfort that there's
potential that I'm actuallygoing to experience life giving
growth. It's not a given. Andthat's what we've got to
understand. Just because you'reoutrageously uncomfortable
(24:50):
doesn't mean you're growing intothe man, the woman, the leader,
the Christ follower, thecommunity member that you're
uniquely called to be. And nowwe're getting into the thick of
it.
Now we're getting into thedifference between productive
and unproductive discomfort. Andwe could even maybe modify this
and say there's productive andthere's destructive discomfort.
(25:14):
So maybe you're in a job that'suncomfortable. Maybe you've got
a team member that isn't quitemaking it. Maybe you've got a
business unit that isn'tcrushing it and isn't profitable
yet.
Maybe you've got a contract witha customer that just isn't
flourishing and it hasn'tflourished in a while. The
question that's posed by all ofthese situations is, is this a
(25:34):
type of discomfort that I needto be patient in and through? Or
is this a type of discomfortthat's really showing we're in
the wrong lane and and we're notdoing what we should be doing,
right? In so many ways, this wasa tension that I really wrestled
with for a long time at myprevious job, because I was a
excitable, in some ways naive,really ambitious young person
(25:59):
that I would get these grandioseideas about, man, I need to
leave this place. Because therewould be things at my job that
didn't totally align with mypassions.
That's a novel idea for a 20year old to experience, right?
They wouldn't totally align withmy passions, and I would
experience those things asdiscomfort, and I would kinda
say, man, maybe I need to eject,maybe I need to leave, and, and
(26:19):
man, there was one particularmoment in time where it really,
really came to a head, and Iactually, like, was thinking,
man, I, I think I need to leave.I I can't deal with this
anymore. This is frustrating.This is irritating to me.
I I think I need to leave. Butthe question that you've gotta
ask is, man, is the discomfortthat I'm feeling something that
(26:40):
I'm actually called to bepatient through, that I need to
be willing to wait, that this isgoing to be used to flourish
growth and opportunity in mylife so I can be more equipped
to serve others? Or is thediscomfort that I'm experiencing
like actually a sign that I'm inthe wrong lane and I need to go
pursue something different? Ineed to shut down that business
(27:01):
unit. I need to fire that teammember.
We need to move on to adifferent strategy within the
company. Right? And this is thetension. This is the question
that is so hard. I talk toleaders all the time.
A lot of time it's youngleaders, sometimes it's old
leaders too, that get tired ofwhat they're in. And the
question that they're ultimatelyasking is, man, is it actually
(27:22):
that I need to continue on andpersevere and exercise patience
because there's great growth onthe other side of this season?
Or is all of these laggingindicators and all of this
frustration and stress andtension and discomfort
associated with the fact thatit's like my time is done here,
a season is changing and I needto leave. Really good question
(27:44):
that oftentimes there's not acookie cutter solution for, but
there are some principles thatyou can overlay into that, that
I've found incredibly helpful.And so again, there's a table in
the growth guide that I think isreally helpful because it makes
this a visual, the differenceand the distinction between
productive and unproductivediscomfort.
(28:06):
Productive discomfort, the typeof discomfort that you better
hunker down, bear down, andfocus because growth is
happening, number one, it alignswith your mission and values.
This is why it's so helpful foryou to have personal mission and
values and for your company tohave mission and values because
this is our first filter. Thefirst thing we can ask is, man,
(28:26):
we're not experiencing resultshere or this isn't going the way
we want it to or this is reallyfrustrating or this is really,
really stressful, or this teammember is really making us angry
and upset. First thing we canask is, does it align with our
mission and values? And if itdoes, then well, we should
probably continue moving downthe list.
But here's the deal,unproductive discomfort or
(28:47):
destructive discomfort, itcontradicts your mission and
values. And so sometimes itbecomes outrageously clear right
off the bat. It's like, why isthis business unit not working?
Because it's not us. And so forus to be patient on something
that's not us is a fool'serrand.
It's a bad strategy. We don'tneed to be patient in this area.
We actually should have stoppedit yesterday. We should have
(29:09):
never started it, but the bestopportunity to stop it is like
right now. And so unproductivediscomfort, it contradicts your
mission and values.
Now in my situation that Ishared with you, the kind of
personal story of, man, I'mgetting frustrated. I think I
can do more. I think I can dodifferent. Not everything that
I'm being asked to do alignswith my passions or what I'm
really good at. And and wouldthink about hitting the eject
(29:32):
button.
The first question that I had toask, I was working at Ramsey
Solutions at the time. Does italign with my mission and
values? And the answer to thatwas unequivocally, without a
shadow of a doubt, yes. Right? Ilooked at my personal mission.
I looked at my personal values.And I would say, like, not only
does it align, it's like hyperclose alignment to my mission
and values. And so in that case,I was like, okay, well, then
(29:54):
I've gotta check the productivediscomfort box and say that
this, in that realm of criteria,this is an area that requires
patience. Let's go to the secondcriteria. Productive discomfort.
It's the type of discomfort youwanna endure through. You wanna
be patient through. You wannakeep on. You wanna persevere. If
there's opportunity forimprovement of effort and
(30:14):
results.
So you got to really honestlyask yourself the question. I
would encourage you to inviteother people into this
conversation that you know,like, and trust. Because the
question that you've got to askyourself is, is there
opportunity for me to grow interms of effort and in terms of
the outcomes that I'm getting?And what we're really looking
for here is there is there aspace to grow? Is there is there
(30:37):
the ability for me to moveforward?
Is there is there opportunityfor me to be able to contribute
more to other people in thisspot that I'm at right now? And
then the unproductivediscomfort, the type of thing
where it's like, man, this isnot the type of thing you need
to exercise patience on. This isthe type of thing you need to
leave is you've exhausted allopportunity for improvement. I
(30:59):
can't increase the effortbecause I've got nothing else to
give, and I don't see myselfgetting better results. Well,
then that's probably a good signthat as it relates to that piece
of criteria, this is not an areawhere more patience is going to
help.
In reality, more patience mightjust continue more of the same.
And so think about this for anarea of the business or with a
(31:20):
team member that you're workingwith. Could you look at that
team member that you're likethinking of firing because
you're really irritated withthem or things that just aren't
happening or the thing that youhired them for isn't getting
done? You gotta ask, do theyalign with your mission and
values? And if the answer thereis yes, then you gotta ask, is
there opportunity forimprovement of effort and
results?
And what I'm asking here is notreally in them, although that's
(31:43):
important for us to evaluate.What I'm asking here is there
opportunity for increased effortand results from you? Like, have
you done everything you can totry and make that work? Now, I'm
not talking about takingresponsibility for that person,
but I am talking about thethings that you're responsible
to. And if you say, man, I thinkthat there's things that I could
(32:05):
do that I haven't done for thisperson and aligns with our
mission and values, probablywith wisdom, patience is
warranted.
And in my situation at Ramsey, Ilooked at it and I asked myself
the question, is thereopportunity for me to get
better? Like I could work withgreater sense of excellence,
greater sense of diligence,greater sense of punctuality,
(32:26):
greater sense of energy, betterattitude. Could I get better at
where I'm at right now? And theanswer was yes. I was like, yes,
I can.
It's not like anyone's putting alid on me. It's not like there
are certain things I'm justcompletely blocked at doing.
It'll require work on my part,but so does everything
worthwhile. And so this isreally helpful because this
(32:46):
criteria keeps us fromabandoning things just because
we're experiencing the painassociated with patients.
Sometimes it's like, man, weneed to wait.
We need to endure. We need topersevere. Okay. So let's go to
the third criteria. So in thearena of productive discomfort.
It's productive discomfort. Likeit's probably a pretty good sign
that you need to stay thecourse. You need to say this too
(33:08):
shall pass, and you need toexercise patience if there's an
absence of better alternatives.And particularly what we're
focusing on here is betteralternatives that are mission
and value aligned. So if theplace that you're at, whether
it's the career that you're in,the team member that you've
hired, the business idea thatyou're pursuing, if it aligns
with your mission and values, ifthere's opportunity for
(33:29):
improvement of effort andresults, and there's an absence
of better alternatives, meaningit's like, we look around and
it's like, what else are yougonna do?
Right? And that was thequestion, frankly, I had to ask
myself whenever I was at Ramsey.It's like, okay, you're
frustrated here. There's somethings that you're like, oh,
man, I could do better. I'm morepassionate about some things.
And there's some things that I'mreally good at that I'm not able
(33:49):
to do as part of my job rightnow. Maybe I need to leave. And
it's like, okay, what are yougonna go do? Is a question that
a mentor of mine asks me. It'slike, well, I don't know.
And it's like, well, until youfigure out something better
that's mission and valuealigned, you probably don't have
a reason to not just endure andpersevere, especially if this
thing is mission and valuealigned. And this is really
(34:12):
important in the business arenatoo, for us to ask ourselves the
question of what is thealternative to my current course
of action that's better? Andoftentimes it's a sign that we
need to endure if something ismission and value aligned if
there's an opportunity for us toget better and there's an
absence of better alternatives.Now with unproductive
(34:33):
discomfort, well, it's probablyunproductive for you to endure
if you look up and you're like,there are like a billion ways
that I could do this that arebetter than what I'm currently
doing and their mission andvalues aligned. If that's the
case, then in some ways we needto think about like, okay, well,
unless there's something reallyparticular where you're like,
(34:54):
man, this is more mission andvalue aligned, this is what I'm
called to, then you kind of justneed to look up and pay
attention and say, okay, this isprobably a good sign that I
don't have to exercise patiencein this season.
I probably need to go pursue oneof those better alternatives
unless there's something thatI'm particularly called to about
this place. But, you know, as Ialready illustrated, it's like
in the season that I was in atRamsey at that time, it's like
(35:17):
there wasn't an abundance ofbetter alternatives. Like, in
many ways, the gig that I was inwas the best gig that I could
possibly have, not even justbecause of the current state of
affairs, but because of all ofthe room for opportunity and
growth. And so it it like helpedme evaluate honestly and
intentionally. Yes, there mightbe things that are frustrating,
that are painful right now, butI'm called to endure.
(35:39):
I'm called to be patient. Andthen finally, let's look at the
final dichotomy. Productivediscomfort, what does it do? It
hurts. Unproductive discomfortharms.
And what I'm really thinkingabout here is who's the man, the
woman, the leader, the Christfollower, the community member
that you're called to be?Productive discomfort, it's
discomfort that hurts. Right?And and man, it'll make you
(36:00):
sore. And it's like, man, Idon't wanna be doing this right
now.
This is hard, but so iseverything else that requires
growth. And patience is equatedto suffering. We've gotta
remember that. But here's thething. Is this the type of hurt
that is going to make you intomore of the man, the woman, the
leader, the Christ follower, thecommunity member that you are
uniquely called to be?
(36:21):
And if the answer is yes, thenyou're like, this hurts, but
this too shall pass. I'm calledto be patient. Unproductive
discomfort, what does it do? Itharms. And it makes you less of
the person that you're called tobe.
And every day you stay is not anexercise in noble, God honoring
patience. It's an exercise inself deprecation and emaciation
(36:43):
in some ways. Right? You'rebecoming less of what you're
supposed to be. And if that'sthe case, it's not patience that
you're exercising.
It's stupid persistence and, inmany ways, stubbornness. And so
let's think about productivediscomfort. If there's something
that you're in right now,whether it's a team member that
you've got on your team, it's ajob that's uncomfortable, it's,
(37:06):
business unit that isn't quitehitting it right now, it's a
contract with a customer thatisn't flourishing. First
question you gotta ask, does italign with my mission and value?
Second question, is thereopportunity for improvement of
effort and results on my end?
Third question, what are thealternatives? And then fourth
question, is this hurt or harm?And I, again, wanna encourage
you, download the growth guidebecause that really visually
(37:27):
lays out this table in a waythat makes it easy to see. But
that's how we evaluate, and it'sreally getting clear on what are
we talking about here. And man,I can just tell you from
personal experience that it isso helpful to get clear on these
questions and these particularcriteria, because if you get
clear on them, they're gonnagive you the patience to be able
(37:50):
to endure through discomfortthat is actually productive.
Because you're gonna see meaningin it. You're gonna understand,
okay, this is actually connectedto something bigger. And that
was the case. In that particularseason at Ramsey for me, it was
about a year and a half in thatthat I was starting to
experience the stress and askthose questions. And I have a
couple of really goodconversations that were very
(38:10):
much rooted in these principleswith mentors and leaders that I
really respect, and it wastaking an honest look in the
mirror and saying, man, this ismission and values aligned.
There's not better alternatives.There's opportunity for me to
get better. And although it doeshurt, it's not in any way
harming me. In fact, I'm gettingbetter every single day in front
of the man, the leader, or theChrist follower that I'm called
(38:31):
to be. And so it was like, thisis a situation that calls for
patience.
If I didn't have thoseprinciples to lead on, I would
have been guided by my emotions,and patient leaders are never
guided by their emotions.Because the reality is is that
your emotions experience thatdiscomfort and say, we're out.
We're done with this. But what'sso cool is I stayed another
(38:55):
almost three years after that.And over that course of that
three years, I started coachingbusiness leaders.
And then from coaching businessleaders, I started hosting and
emceeing live events, which wasjust absolutely incredible and
learning from all the speakersat those live events and
learning about communicationfrom people like the GOAT
himself, Dave Ramsey. And thenit was on the other side of that
(39:15):
that I became the host of theEntreLeadership podcast and for
a season got paid to interviewpeople like John Maxwell, Jocko
Willink, Marie Forleo. Right?Just a litany of really, really
amazing leaders that I got tolearn from on behalf of other
people. And if I didn't have thepatience to stick through that
really challenging and stressfulseason, I would have never
(39:35):
gotten to experience that.
But then, as you know, if you'relistening to this podcast,
right, it was close to four anda half years in that I
experienced a similar tension,although it was in a way
healthier way. We've discussedit earlier on the podcast. And
it was in that that I actuallytalked to people at Ramsey, and,
and I also, talked to people inmy personal life. And I said,
(39:57):
man, does this align with mymission and values? The answer
was still yes.
Ramsey did align with my missionand values. Was there
opportunity for improvement ofeffort and results? Yes. In many
ways, there were opportunitiesfor improvement, but I could
also picture alternatives wherethere were opportunities for me
to grow into more of the manthat I was called to be. And
that was really the distinctionis that although these two paths
(40:20):
both align with my mission andvalues, I could grow in each of
them.
Before, a year and a half in,there weren't very good
alternatives. Like, what are yougonna go do? Well, nothing
better than where I am rightnow. And then on the other side,
it's like, man, not only isthere something that I feel
really called to, which isstarting this business called
Path for Growth. I think for meto stay here in this corporation
(40:44):
where I'm not pursuing thatwould actually start to become
harmful.
Not because it was harmful mebeing there at that time, it was
actually really good. I wasthriving there and I loved
working there in so many ways.But man, I could see every day
that I spent not leaving tostart this business was an
opportunity where I could startto get bitter and resentful and
(41:04):
not at anyone else, just atmyself because I was sabotaging
what I felt like I was actuallycalled to do. And so in so many
ways, that's what made thedecision at that period of my
life different than the onebefore. But you can see how it's
like, man, it's productivediscomfort versus unproductive
discomfort.
If I would have stayed four anda half years in and said, no, I
(41:26):
mean, the opportunity is toogood here, the salary is too
predictable, there's too manythings. I can tell you, I know
people that have done that atother companies, right? And it
does not go well with theirsoul. It becomes extremely
unproductive and it's actuallythe opposite of patients. So
what do patient leaders know?
They know the oppositionalnature of first and second and
third order consequences, andthey know the difference between
(41:48):
productive and unproductivediscomfort. Finally, what do
patient leaders know? They know,they understand, they deeply
believe in the compounding valueof staying on the same path. I
first illustrated this point atone of our in person
experiences. It was one that wehosted in Asheville, and I'll
never forget the room.
It was the height of fall colorsin Asheville, North Carolina,
(42:10):
just absolutely gorgeous. Thisroom was surrounded by windows.
About 40 liters in the room.It's just such a powerful
moment. And I asked the questionto start the session.
I said, what is something in thenatural world that represents
impact? I asked the question,and this was like something
where I was like, when I waswriting this content, I was
like, I think people will getthis, but I really hope they get
(42:34):
it. Because in my mind, I'mthinking to myself, I live in
Arizona, the obvious answer tothat question, what is something
in the natural world thatrepresents impact? The obvious
answer is Grand Canyon, but I'mlike, I hope that it's as
obvious to them as it is to mebecause otherwise this
illustration is gonna be reallyhard to to shoehorn in here. So
I asked the question, what issomething in the natural world
that represents impact?
(42:55):
And without even pausing amoment, it didn't even skip a
beat, it was like the first wordthat came out of his mouth, it
was Herb Sargent, I'll neverforget it. I was so grateful he
was in the room that day becausehe wasn't prepped, he wasn't
prime, he just said the GrandCanyon. I was like Herb, you're
my dude, right? Thanks for beinghere. And so, yes, right?
The Grand Canyon is a visualrepresentation of impact that to
(43:19):
such a degree that I ask thatquestion and it's the first
words that come out of someone'smouth in the room. Right? It's
like when we think of impact andwhen we think of impact in God's
creation, what do we think of?We think about the Grand Canyon.
It's 6,000 feet deep at itsdeepest point.
It's 18 miles wide at its widestpoint. Now think about how that
(43:41):
impact was created for a second.Water moving in the same
direction over time. How was theimpact of 6,000 feet deep, 18
miles wide at its widest point?How was that impact created?
Water moving in the samedirection over time. Now, that's
(44:03):
actually a really importantreality to consider about
creation that affects us asleaders because I think it
directly applies to a principlethat patient leaders deeply
understand and believe. Impactdriven leaders never stay in the
same place, but they always stayon the same path. Whenever we
talk about patients, what doimpact driven leaders always get
(44:26):
concerned about? What do theyalways get worried about?
What do they get anxious about?It's misappropriated anxiety,
but it's anxiety nonetheless. Idon't wanna get stagnant. I
don't wanna get complacent. Idon't just wanna stay where I'm
at.
That's not good. Right? But whatdo impact driven leaders
actually do? Well, if you'regonna make an impact, what do
you have to do? You don't stayin the same place.
I would never argue that youshould stay in the same place
(44:49):
because that is complacency,that is stagnancy, that is
stultification. But what do youhave to do? You have to stay on
the same path. You gotta makesure that you're making deposits
into the same account. You gottamake sure that you're chopping
the same tree.
You gotta make sure that you'removing in the same direction
over an extended period of time.That's the question that we
(45:09):
really have to consider if wewanna create impact over time.
It's the question that we'regonna be really diving deeper
into at our experience in Austinin October called Long Game
Leadership is, what's the paththat you are on, and how do you
make sure you stay on it? Andreally, those two questions are
gonna inform our next podcastepisode in this series because
(45:31):
we're gonna look at what doespatients do. So impact driven
leaders never stay in the sameplace, but they always stay on
the same path.
So the question I've got for youis what's the path you're on and
how do you make sure you stay onit? And, man, we're gonna dive
into five really practicalactions
of,
like, making sure you know your path and making sure
(45:53):
you stay on that path in thenext episode. So I wanna make
sure that you're subscribed tothe podcast. And then, again,
think about the three actions wetalked about in the first
episode of this series. Listenthoughtfully, reflect
intentionally using the growthguide. You can click the link in
the show notes if you don't yethave that downloaded.
And then discuss it openly,right? It's so helpful to share
this content, especially aboutpatients with people because you
(46:15):
can start turning that, okay?Because then you can ask each
other questions and it doesn'tjust become this individualized
isolated effort because healthygrowth never occurs in
isolation. And also, I'd beremiss not to say that all of
this content is reallyfoundational for me as I start
to think about the wholecurriculum of content we're
gonna be sharing with a group of45 leaders in Austin, Texas in
(46:40):
October of twenty twenty five.The theme of that experience is
going to be long gameleadership.
And the idea there is culturallytoday, man, we have such a high
propensity to pursue things thatare superficial, that are
actually distractions, and thatactually don't result in lasting
impact over time. But what do wewant to pursue? Well, we don't
(47:00):
wanna play the short game, wewanna play the long game. And so
we're gonna do a study, right?It's gonna be a study, it's
gonna be in-depth, it's gonna bea jolt that moves us forward,
expands our mind, expands ouremotions around this idea of
long game leadership.
I'm so excited about the crewthat's gonna be there. We've got
60% of the room all the way fullalready, and we're so many
months out. We'd love to haveyou there if you're an impact
(47:22):
driven leader that owns or runsa business. If you are
interested in joining us inAustin, Texas, make sure you
click the link that's in theshow notes, and you can find out
all the information at thatlink. Y'all know this.
We're rooting for you. We'repraying for you. We wanna see
you win. Remember, my strengthis not for me. Your strength is
not for you.
Our strength is for service. Let's go. Let's go.
(47:46):
Let's
Impact driven leaders never stay in the same place,
but they always stay on the samepath. Whenever we talk about
patients, what do impact drivenleaders always get concerned
about? What do they always getworried about? What do they get
anxious about? About?
It's misappropriated anxiety,but it's anxiety nonetheless. I
don't wanna get stagnant. Idon't wanna get complacent. I
(00:21):
don't just wanna stay where I'mat. That's not good, right?
But what do impact drivenleaders actually do? Well, if
you're gonna make an impact,what do you have to do? You
don't stay in the same place. Iwould never argue that you
should stay in the same placebecause that is complacency.
That is stagnancy.
That is stultification. But whatdo you have to do? You have to
stay on the same path. You gottamake sure that you're making
(00:43):
deposits into the same account.You gotta make sure that you're
chopping the same tree.
You gotta make sure that you'removing in the same direction
over an extended period of time.Well, hey there, I'm Alex Judd,
the founder of Path for Growth,and this is the Path for Growth
podcast. As a business, we existto help impact driven leaders
(01:03):
like you step into who they werecreated to be so that others
benefit and God is glorified.Let's go. Well, we're on part
two of this series on the nonnegotiable price of impact.
And we always say that thispodcast and this business being
Path for Growth exists forimpact driven leaders and that
to be impact driven means thatyou're motivated by this crazy
(01:26):
belief that you can make adifference. But in that, like
we're talking not about impactdriven people, we're talking
about impact driven leaders. Andso let's just remember that to
be an impact driven leader, youare committing to making a
difference within, through, andfor other people. We say it all
the time on this podcast in somany ways. When it comes to
(01:49):
leadership, people are the pointand you can't have leadership
without relationship.
And so it's in that that we'vebeen asking a question about
impact driven leadership. What'sthe price of making an impact?
Because one of the kind of baselevel assertions that we're
making and one of theundergirding beliefs that
informs everything we do is thatimpact, the ability for you to
(02:12):
make a difference on otherpeople is incredibly valuable.
And if it's incredibly valuable,then there's a cost associated
with it. So the question that weare kind of asking is, well,
what's the cost?
What's the price of that impact?And as we've already
articulated, there's so manyways that you could come at that
question, but we're reallyfocusing in and zeroing in on
(02:34):
what I kind of have deemed as anon negotiable. That's right. I
think what we're focusing onover the course of this series
is a non negotiable price ofimpact. And that's why I think
it's so crucial for us to spendtime understanding the nature of
this thing, really selfreflecting and evaluating how do
we hold this virtue or where dowe need to grow in this virtue
(02:55):
and ultimately finding andseeking ways to practice this
virtue in our daily life and inour daily leadership.
And so what is that nonnegotiable virtue? Well, the
virtue that we've beendiscussing is the virtue of
patience. And what did we say aformal definition of patience
is? In episode one, we saidpatience is the capacity to
(03:18):
tolerate challenges or delayswithout getting upset. And maybe
even more than without gettingupset, it's without hitting the
eject button.
It's without tapping out. It'swithout saying I'm done. It's
the ability to endure. And if wewere to really make that
definition concise and portable,what is patience? It's being
(03:39):
willing to wait.
And so it's in that context thattoday, we're gonna look at
principally what are some of thethings that a patient leader
knows. That if we are going tobe leaders that practice
patients personally andorganizationally, what are the
things that we principally haveto keep in mind? And I think
(04:01):
this is so critically importantbecause regardless of where you
are at in your personal life, myhope for you is that you have
hopes of your own, that there'sthings that you desire, that
there's things that you longfor, that there's things that
you're aiming at, that there'sthings that you're excited
about, but that's notnecessarily your present
reality. Now this does not meanthat you can't and shouldn't be
(04:23):
content and joyful in yourpresent reality. One of the
things we wanna do is we wannabe deeply content while
simultaneously pursuing being aleader that's outrageously
growth oriented.
And so we're gonna be content,we're gonna be present, we're
gonna be grateful, but we'realso gonna be excited and
anticipatory for what's comingin the future. And it's in that
that we are called to be peoplethat wait. And we're not just
(04:46):
called to be people that waitlike we're slogging it out, that
we're putting in our time orsomething like that, but rather
we're called to be people thatwait while exhibiting the fruit
of the spirit. Love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness,
gentleness, faithfulness, andself control. But But it's also
a virtue that is undoubtedlyrequired organizationally.
(05:07):
Think about it. If you are inthe game of developing leaders,
what's that gonna take? Well,practically, it's gonna take
time because it doesn't happenovernight. And if it's gonna
take time, what's it gonna takefrom you specifically? Well,
it's gonna take patience.
If you're pursuing a long termvision to use Jim Collins'
language, a big, hairy,audacious goal, if you're trying
(05:30):
to build something that is trulybigger than yourself and beyond
yourself, well, what's thatgonna require? It's gonna
require time and from you, it'sgoing to require patience. If
you are trying to bring aboutsomething that's innovative,
that's new, that's creative tothe marketplace, that you're
gonna try and change people'sperceptions, and you're gonna
(05:50):
try to add value in new ways asan entrepreneur. Well, what's
that gonna take? It's gonna taketime, and because it's gonna
take time, it's gonna takepatience.
And not just your willingness towait, but the way you wait in
many ways can have massiveramifications for whether that
endeavor, that project, thatrelationship, that personal goal
(06:11):
succeeds or fails. And so it'sin that context that there's a
few things that I think it's socrucial for us to reflect on and
remember principally about thevirtue of patience, and we're
gonna walk through three ofthem. I'm gonna give them to you
high level, and then we'll diveinto each. I also wanna make
sure that, if you haven't yetgotten on the email list to
(06:33):
receive the growth guide, thatyou go ahead and do that because
man, that growth guide is gonnalay out each of these
principles. It's gonna lay outall the points that we discuss
on this podcast.
There will be applicationquestions on there, and it's
really gonna detail this entirepatient series in a way that's
really digestible, it's reallyshareable, but it's also
organized in such a way that youcan come back and reference this
stuff later because maybe you'rein a season right now that isn't
(06:56):
requiring outrageous amounts ofpatients, but I guarantee you
that if you're in leadership,your season is coming. And if
that's the case, I wanna makesure you have this to be able to
look back on your notes. So makesure you download the growth
guide. If you're not yet on thatemail list, like, so many of you
are, which is so cool, just makesure you click the link that's
in the show notes to get on thatlist. Okay.
Let's go ahead and jump into thethree realities that we're gonna
(07:19):
walk through. Number one, whatdo you need to understand? You
need to understand theoppositional nature of first
order and second and third orderconsequences. Number two, what
do you need to understand? Youneed to understand the
difference between productiveand unproductive discomfort.
That's where the growth guide isgonna be really helpful because
we actually have a table thatillustrates these differences in
(07:40):
a really visual way. And thennumber three, the compounding
value of staying on the samepath. So this is what we're
gonna break down, and the way Iwant you to be thinking about
this is in an evaluative and areflective way. Just think to
yourself, man, do my actions inthis season, in my life and
leadership reflect that Iunderstand this reality? Because
(08:03):
that's what I really feel likeI'm presenting to you today is
just three realities thatpatient people and patient
leaders understand.
So let's go ahead and jumpstraight into number one. We
said number one is patientleaders understand the
oppositional nature of firstorder and second and third order
consequences. Now the place thatI probably learned this most
(08:24):
comprehensively was from RayDalio's book, Principles, that
is really just a a referencetool in so many ways for
principles about life, business,and leadership that's incredibly
valuable. But I pulledparticularly the section that I
learned this from, and I wantedto read it to you and then we'll
dive into the examples. Sohere's what Ray Dalio says about
(08:45):
this idea of first and secondand third order consequences.
Recognizing the higher levelconsequences nature optimizes
for, I've come to see thatpeople who overweigh the first
order consequences of theirdecisions and ignore the effects
of second and subsequent orderconsequences rarely reach their
goals. This is because firstorder consequences often have
(09:07):
opposite desirability fromsecond order consequences,
resulting in big mistakes indecision making. For example,
the first order consequence ofexercise, pain, and time spent
are commonly consideredundesirable, while the second
order consequences, betterhealth and more attractive
appearance, are desirable.Similarly, food that tastes good
(09:27):
is often bad for you and viceversa. Quite often, the first
order consequences are thetemptations that cost us what we
really want, and sometimes theyare the barriers that stand in
our way.
It's almost as though naturesorts us by throwing us trick
choices that have both types ofconsequences and penalizing
those who make their decisionson the basis of the first order
(09:48):
consequences alone. By contrast,people who choose what they
really want, what they deeplywant, and avoid the temptations
and get over the pains thatdrive them away from what they
really want are much more likelyto have successful lives. Now
what's interesting about this isthis is written from a secular
viewpoint in many ways, but Ithink there's faith principles
(10:10):
all over this thing. And what issomething that we said in the
first episode, what we said thatpatience is really related to
and equated with and in theworld cloud of the biblical
ideas of humility, forbearance,self control, and faithfulness
and endurance. And that'sexactly what's being articulated
here is what do we often seemost clearly and most easily?
(10:33):
Well, what we see is the firstorder consequence. In the
example that he gave, right, wesee and we viscerally and
physically understand the firstorder consequence of going back
to the gym for the first time.It's like, man, this is gonna
hurt. I feel lazy and I don'twanna do this. I'm gonna be sore
the next day.
I haven't been there in a whileand I don't feel good going to
(10:53):
the gym whenever I haven't beenin a while. And it's gonna
require a ton of energy. I'vegotta make time in my schedule.
It's gonna feel clunky. And sowe see that very viscerally, and
we don't even just see it.
We feel it. What we don't oftensee as viscerally or feel as
viscerally is the second orthird order consequences,
because what are the second andthird order consequences of
(11:14):
going to the gym? Well, secondorder consequences are energy,
momentum. And what's crazy is, Idon't know if you feel the same
way, but oftentimes, if I go tothe gym, that's a healthy choice
that promotes future healthychoices. Like when I go to the
gym, you would think it's like,oh, now I'm gonna go splurge and
eat whatever I want.
But it's like, when I go to thegym, I actually eat healthier.
And then what are the thirdorder consequences? Well, over
(11:34):
time, if you keep going to thegym, you're gonna be more
healthy. You're gonna have moreof a positive self image. You're
gonna have more confidence.
Right? And there's so many otherthird and even fourth order
consequences associated withthis, initial decision to go to
(13:31):
the gym. But you see theoppositional nature. The first
order consequence is discomfort,struggle, and inconvenience. And
it's only if we have a vision ofthe second and third order
consequences of this choice thatwe actually get to experience
the benefit.
And you see why that requirespatience, because we gotta get
over the hurdle of the firstorder in order to experience the
(13:54):
second and third order. Nowlet's just think about the
opposite scenario. If we decideto skip the gym, if we say, oh
man, I'm tired, I've had a fullday, I've been busy, right? I
didn't sleep well last night. Ijust wanna stay home and have a
cheeseburger, right?
I'm not gonna go to the gym.First order consequence of that
decision. The first orderconsequence of that decision is
(14:14):
comfort, relaxation,convenience, and very
practically a cheeseburger. Soit actually feels pretty good.
But what's interesting is in thesame way, what's the
oppositional nature of thesecond and third order
consequence?
Well, the second orderconsequence is gonna be almost a
mirror image of the first orderconsequence. It's gonna be
laziness. It's gonna becontinuing to not going to the
(14:36):
gym because lack of disciplinebegets lack of discipline. And
it's gonna be poor eating, likewe said, cheeseburger. And then
the third order consequence,unhealth, poor self image,
complacency creep.
Right? Where it's like, man,we're complacent in this area.
We've proven to ourselves thatwe are that type of person, and
we start to see that creep intoour marriage, our parenting, our
(14:57):
work, all of it. Right? And westart, instead of becoming just
complacent in this one area, webecome complacent in other
areas.
You see how comfort on the frontend results in detrimental
consequences on the back end,Rather, discomfort on the front
end results in health and growthon the back end. And we know
that, yeah, practically thatmakes sense at the gym. But also
(15:21):
I think we all kind ofintuitively understand, man,
this idea of first and second,third order consequences
transcends our decision to go tothe gym. So what's a parallel
arena where this takes place?Well, let's talk about working
in the business versus workingon the business.
In so many ways, I think forbusiness leaders and business
owners particularly, especiallyif you're in a business that you
(15:44):
are the founder of that hasgrown over time, working on the
business for you is like goingto the gym. Because if you're
the founder, it's like you builtthe business by working in the
business, and now you know thatwhat got you here isn't gonna
get you there, so you need to donew things to get new results.
However, it feels a lot likegoing to the gym for the first
time. And why is that? Well,because the first order
(16:06):
consequences of working on thebusiness, what are they?
It's thankless, right? Ingeneral, especially if you're
doing this by yourself, which Iwouldn't recommend, that's why
our third fundamental is createa healthy and robust leadership
team. But if you are doing it byyourself, right, like no one
sees you doing it. And there'sno one there to say, man, you
did a great job. Thanks so muchfor doing that.
Conversely, if you work in thebusiness, everyone sees it. It's
(16:29):
hidden. It feels clunky. Itfeels challenging, and it feels
uncomfortable. Those are thefirst order consequences of
thinking strategically, workingon your business, starting to
get process and focus and visioninto your business, starting to
make sure that you've got thestructure to keep you where your
growth takes you.
First order consequences,thankless, hidden, clunky,
(16:49):
challenging, uncomfortable. NowI hope you've got the growth
guide because the way this laysout in the table is really
visually helpful, I think. Whatare the second order
consequences? Progress, rhythm,and momentum. We see it all the
time, right?
This is what we do with businessowners is we help them establish
rhythms and stay accountable torhythms of not just working in
their business, but working ontheir business. And for a
(17:11):
particular stage of businessowner, like, this is one of the
primary value adds we andparticularly our one on one
coaches provide. And I see itall the time, right? When
they're first doing it, it'shard. And oftentimes it takes a
little while to get into themotions, right, to start going
to the gym, to start exercising.
They're figuring it out for thefirst time. But then they look
up, and honestly, it's typicallywithin like that first three
(17:33):
months that they start to getsome reps in, they start to get
some deposits in, and they lookup and they say, Oh my gosh,
things are actually better. Andcertainly things are not all
that they could be quite yet,and there may still be a little
bit chaos and there may be alittle bit of disorganization,
but I'm starting to seeprogress. This is the equivalent
of starting to see yourself loseweight. Right?
It's like, I have hope that thatour current reality, business
(17:57):
that is chaos, disorganized, noone knows who reports to who,
there's not clear flow ofdelegation, the leader is
overburdened and overstressed.They they should have hope that
it's like, I don't think italways has to be that way, and
therefore, they start to getrhythm and momentum. But what's
so cool is that's just thesecond order consequences. If
they have patience and if theycontinue to follow through, what
(18:18):
do they experience? Results?
Like they start to just saylike, oh my gosh, I got our
cashflow report and it's thebest it's ever been. We're more
profitable than we've ever been.And decentralization, I have
people on my team now that aremaking decisions actively and
proactively that I used to make.Reduce stress for the leader,
(18:38):
sustainable growth for thebusiness that isn't all
dependent on one leader. That'sthird order consequences of
working on the business.
But now, well, let's look at theopposite, working in the
business. What does it feellike? It's familiar. You get
recognition. You get a dopaminehit because you know exactly
whenever you finish the thing,and you get credit.
So it feels so good. That's afirst order consequence, right?
(19:00):
It's a positive first orderconsequence that's outrageously
tempting. What are the secondand third order consequences?
Well, the second orderconsequences are stress,
frustration, and firefighting.
And sadly, people justexperience these consequences.
And if they haven't been exposedto other businesses where they
see it operate differently, theyjust think that's the way that
(19:22):
it is and that's the way it'salways gonna be. And ultimately
what that devolves into is lackof growth for the business,
because if it's all contingenton one person working in the
business, it will cap outeventually because that person
is limited. Centralization,they're not building capacity,
they're building dependency. Andthen finally, what is it?
(19:44):
This is probably actually afourth or fifth order
consequence. A feeling from theowner typically that they're
trapped, that they've builtsomething that they don't even
want anymore, but they have zeroway to get out because it all
depends on them. And that'sreally devastating, right? But
you can see how thisunderstanding of first, second,
and third order consequencesdirectly overlays to what we're
(20:10):
talking about with patience.Because it's actually in the
etymology of patience that it'sdirectly tied to the word
suffering, and it can be equatedto the ability to tolerate pain.
And so what does the patientleader do when they see an
activity that they're like, Ithink that's the right thing to
do. And why do I think that'sthe right thing to do? Whether
(20:31):
it's to work on the business,whether it's to make that
investment, whether it's todouble down on a specific line
of business, whether it's toinnovate into a new area,
whether it's to launch a newbranch, they say, I think it's
the right thing to do. And whydo I think that it's the right
thing to do? Well, it's thiscombination of intuition, but
also successfully use clues.
And I've seen other peopleoperate in this area, and its
(20:51):
mission and values align. Itfeels like the right thing to
do. Well, what's the first orderconsequence of doing that thing?
Often the first orderconsequence is discomfort. It
feels clunky, it feelsuncomfortable, it feels chaotic.
But what does a patient leaderdo? They say, Ma'am, I'm gonna
wade through the first order ofconsequences because I know that
(21:11):
on the backside of that firstorder of consequences, if its
mission and values align, arethe second and third order
consequences, and those areoften the opposite of what I'm
going to experience right offthe bat. And this is wild to
think about. Like, think aboutthe things in your life that you
avoid because they'reuncomfortable, and then think to
(21:34):
yourself, what are the secondand third order consequences of
those things? And this isactually an exercise in vision
capturing and ultimately foryourself vision casting because
oftentimes we're way better atseeing the discomfort associated
with the first order than we areat seeing the pleasure and
(21:56):
growth and service and impactthat will eventually come if we
endure to the second and thirdorder.
And so we're better at picturingthe immediate, which makes
sense, right? That's what we'remost used to seeing. What are
patient leaders good at? Man,they can envision, they can
imagine, they can picture, hey,it's not gonna be the first
order. The first order is gonnalook very different than this.
(22:17):
The immediate is going to feelvery different than this, but
they can get in their mind'seye. They can get this idea of
like, but if I endure, if Icontinue on, I've got this image
of how the second and thirdorder will be directly
oppositional to that. And inmany ways, we're starting with
the principle, but this is alsoa practice, right? That when you
(22:39):
engage that practice, what areyou gonna see expand? Your
patience.
Because you're not just waitingthrough discomfort for the sake
of waiting through discomfort.You are now waiting through
discomfort because you've got avision of a hopeful, better,
more impactful, more growthoriented future. So what do
patient leaders know? They knowthe oppositional nature of first
(23:00):
and second and third orderconsequences. That brings us to
the second thing that patientleaders know.
Patient leaders know andunderstand the difference
between productive andunproductive discomfort. So
we've already said this, andwe've hit on this really quite a
bit in this episode already.Patience is the capacity to
(23:22):
tolerate challenges or delayswithout getting upset, right?
And we really double down onthis in the first thing that
leaders understand. Patience isby nature uncomfortable.
And really, if you're going tobe patient, what we're talking
about you being patient is beingpatient in everything being
great and exactly how you wantit for the remainder of time.
(23:44):
No, that doesn't require anypatience. What we're talking
about here is I have thesethings that I'm anticipating. I
have these things that I'mexcited about. I have these
things that I'm hoping for, thatI want to see come to pass, but
they're not here yet.
My present isn't equated to mydesired future, and so therefore
I am called to be patient. Butin that patience, there's a
(24:04):
tension, there's a dissonance,and I feel uncomfortable. And we
talk about it all the time thatgrowth and comfort never
coexist. So in some ways it'slike, man, if I'm uncomfortable,
there's a pretty good chancethat that's right where I need
to be because it's in that stateof discomfort that there's
potential for me to experiencereally life giving growth. But
(24:29):
listen to how I said that realquick, because it's directly
related to what the patientleader knows.
It's when I'm experiencingdiscomfort that there's
potential that I'm actuallygoing to experience life giving
growth. It's not a given. Andthat's what we've got to
understand. Just because you'reoutrageously uncomfortable
(24:50):
doesn't mean you're growing intothe man, the woman, the leader,
the Christ follower, thecommunity member that you're
uniquely called to be. And nowwe're getting into the thick of
it.
Now we're getting into thedifference between productive
and unproductive discomfort. Andwe could even maybe modify this
and say there's productive andthere's destructive discomfort.
(25:14):
So maybe you're in a job that'suncomfortable. Maybe you've got
a team member that isn't quitemaking it. Maybe you've got a
business unit that isn'tcrushing it and isn't profitable
yet.
Maybe you've got a contract witha customer that just isn't
flourishing and it hasn'tflourished in a while. The
question that's posed by all ofthese situations is, is this a
(25:34):
type of discomfort that I needto be patient in and through? Or
is this a type of discomfortthat's really showing we're in
the wrong lane and and we're notdoing what we should be doing,
right? In so many ways, this wasa tension that I really wrestled
with for a long time at myprevious job, because I was a
excitable, in some ways naive,really ambitious young person
(25:59):
that I would get these grandioseideas about, man, I need to
leave this place. Because therewould be things at my job that
didn't totally align with mypassions.
That's a novel idea for a 20year old to experience, right?
They wouldn't totally align withmy passions, and I would
experience those things asdiscomfort, and I would kinda
say, man, maybe I need to eject,maybe I need to leave, and, and
(26:19):
man, there was one particularmoment in time where it really,
really came to a head, and Iactually, like, was thinking,
man, I, I think I need to leave.I I can't deal with this
anymore. This is frustrating.This is irritating to me.
I I think I need to leave. Butthe question that you've gotta
ask is, man, is the discomfortthat I'm feeling something that
(26:40):
I'm actually called to bepatient through, that I need to
be willing to wait, that this isgoing to be used to flourish
growth and opportunity in mylife so I can be more equipped
to serve others? Or is thediscomfort that I'm experiencing
like actually a sign that I'm inthe wrong lane and I need to go
pursue something different? Ineed to shut down that business
(27:01):
unit. I need to fire that teammember.
We need to move on to adifferent strategy within the
company. Right? And this is thetension. This is the question
that is so hard. I talk toleaders all the time.
A lot of time it's youngleaders, sometimes it's old
leaders too, that get tired ofwhat they're in. And the
question that they're ultimatelyasking is, man, is it actually
(27:22):
that I need to continue on andpersevere and exercise patience
because there's great growth onthe other side of this season?
Or is all of these laggingindicators and all of this
frustration and stress andtension and discomfort
associated with the fact thatit's like my time is done here,
a season is changing and I needto leave. Really good question
(27:44):
that oftentimes there's not acookie cutter solution for, but
there are some principles thatyou can overlay into that, that
I've found incredibly helpful.And so again, there's a table in
the growth guide that I think isreally helpful because it makes
this a visual, the differenceand the distinction between
productive and unproductivediscomfort.
(28:06):
Productive discomfort, the typeof discomfort that you better
hunker down, bear down, andfocus because growth is
happening, number one, it alignswith your mission and values.
This is why it's so helpful foryou to have personal mission and
values and for your company tohave mission and values because
this is our first filter. Thefirst thing we can ask is, man,
(28:26):
we're not experiencing resultshere or this isn't going the way
we want it to or this is reallyfrustrating or this is really,
really stressful, or this teammember is really making us angry
and upset. First thing we canask is, does it align with our
mission and values? And if itdoes, then well, we should
probably continue moving downthe list.
But here's the deal,unproductive discomfort or
(28:47):
destructive discomfort, itcontradicts your mission and
values. And so sometimes itbecomes outrageously clear right
off the bat. It's like, why isthis business unit not working?
Because it's not us. And so forus to be patient on something
that's not us is a fool'serrand.
It's a bad strategy. We don'tneed to be patient in this area.
We actually should have stoppedit yesterday. We should have
(29:09):
never started it, but the bestopportunity to stop it is like
right now. And so unproductivediscomfort, it contradicts your
mission and values.
Now in my situation that Ishared with you, the kind of
personal story of, man, I'mgetting frustrated. I think I
can do more. I think I can dodifferent. Not everything that
I'm being asked to do alignswith my passions or what I'm
really good at. And and wouldthink about hitting the eject
(29:32):
button.
The first question that I had toask, I was working at Ramsey
Solutions at the time. Does italign with my mission and
values? And the answer to thatwas unequivocally, without a
shadow of a doubt, yes. Right? Ilooked at my personal mission.
I looked at my personal values.And I would say, like, not only
does it align, it's like hyperclose alignment to my mission
and values. And so in that case,I was like, okay, well, then
(29:54):
I've gotta check the productivediscomfort box and say that
this, in that realm of criteria,this is an area that requires
patience. Let's go to the secondcriteria. Productive discomfort.
It's the type of discomfort youwanna endure through. You wanna
be patient through. You wannakeep on. You wanna persevere. If
there's opportunity forimprovement of effort and
(30:14):
results.
So you got to really honestlyask yourself the question. I
would encourage you to inviteother people into this
conversation that you know,like, and trust. Because the
question that you've got to askyourself is, is there
opportunity for me to grow interms of effort and in terms of
the outcomes that I'm getting?And what we're really looking
for here is there is there aspace to grow? Is there is there
(30:37):
the ability for me to moveforward?
Is there is there opportunityfor me to be able to contribute
more to other people in thisspot that I'm at right now? And
then the unproductivediscomfort, the type of thing
where it's like, man, this isnot the type of thing you need
to exercise patience on. This isthe type of thing you need to
leave is you've exhausted allopportunity for improvement. I
(30:59):
can't increase the effortbecause I've got nothing else to
give, and I don't see myselfgetting better results. Well,
then that's probably a good signthat as it relates to that piece
of criteria, this is not an areawhere more patience is going to
help.
In reality, more patience mightjust continue more of the same.
And so think about this for anarea of the business or with a
(31:20):
team member that you're workingwith. Could you look at that
team member that you're likethinking of firing because
you're really irritated withthem or things that just aren't
happening or the thing that youhired them for isn't getting
done? You gotta ask, do theyalign with your mission and
values? And if the answer thereis yes, then you gotta ask, is
there opportunity forimprovement of effort and
results?
And what I'm asking here is notreally in them, although that's
(31:43):
important for us to evaluate.What I'm asking here is there
opportunity for increased effortand results from you? Like, have
you done everything you can totry and make that work? Now, I'm
not talking about takingresponsibility for that person,
but I am talking about thethings that you're responsible
to. And if you say, man, I thinkthat there's things that I could
(32:05):
do that I haven't done for thisperson and aligns with our
mission and values, probablywith wisdom, patience is
warranted.
And in my situation at Ramsey, Ilooked at it and I asked myself
the question, is thereopportunity for me to get
better? Like I could work withgreater sense of excellence,
greater sense of diligence,greater sense of punctuality,
(32:26):
greater sense of energy, betterattitude. Could I get better at
where I'm at right now? And theanswer was yes. I was like, yes,
I can.
It's not like anyone's putting alid on me. It's not like there
are certain things I'm justcompletely blocked at doing.
It'll require work on my part,but so does everything
worthwhile. And so this isreally helpful because this
(32:46):
criteria keeps us fromabandoning things just because
we're experiencing the painassociated with patients.
Sometimes it's like, man, weneed to wait.
We need to endure. We need topersevere. Okay. So let's go to
the third criteria. So in thearena of productive discomfort.
It's productive discomfort. Likeit's probably a pretty good sign
that you need to stay thecourse. You need to say this too
(33:08):
shall pass, and you need toexercise patience if there's an
absence of better alternatives.And particularly what we're
focusing on here is betteralternatives that are mission
and value aligned. So if theplace that you're at, whether
it's the career that you're in,the team member that you've
hired, the business idea thatyou're pursuing, if it aligns
with your mission and values, ifthere's opportunity for
(33:29):
improvement of effort andresults, and there's an absence
of better alternatives, meaningit's like, we look around and
it's like, what else are yougonna do?
Right? And that was thequestion, frankly, I had to ask
myself whenever I was at Ramsey.It's like, okay, you're
frustrated here. There's somethings that you're like, oh,
man, I could do better. I'm morepassionate about some things.
And there's some things that I'mreally good at that I'm not able
(33:49):
to do as part of my job rightnow. Maybe I need to leave. And
it's like, okay, what are yougonna go do? Is a question that
a mentor of mine asks me. It'slike, well, I don't know.
And it's like, well, until youfigure out something better
that's mission and valuealigned, you probably don't have
a reason to not just endure andpersevere, especially if this
thing is mission and valuealigned. And this is really
(34:12):
important in the business arenatoo, for us to ask ourselves the
question of what is thealternative to my current course
of action that's better? Andoftentimes it's a sign that we
need to endure if something ismission and value aligned if
there's an opportunity for us toget better and there's an
absence of better alternatives.Now with unproductive
(34:33):
discomfort, well, it's probablyunproductive for you to endure
if you look up and you're like,there are like a billion ways
that I could do this that arebetter than what I'm currently
doing and their mission andvalues aligned. If that's the
case, then in some ways we needto think about like, okay, well,
unless there's something reallyparticular where you're like,
(34:54):
man, this is more mission andvalue aligned, this is what I'm
called to, then you kind of justneed to look up and pay
attention and say, okay, this isprobably a good sign that I
don't have to exercise patiencein this season.
I probably need to go pursue oneof those better alternatives
unless there's something thatI'm particularly called to about
this place. But, you know, as Ialready illustrated, it's like
in the season that I was in atRamsey at that time, it's like
(35:17):
there wasn't an abundance ofbetter alternatives. Like, in
many ways, the gig that I was inwas the best gig that I could
possibly have, not even justbecause of the current state of
affairs, but because of all ofthe room for opportunity and
growth. And so it it like helpedme evaluate honestly and
intentionally. Yes, there mightbe things that are frustrating,
that are painful right now, butI'm called to endure.
(35:39):
I'm called to be patient. Andthen finally, let's look at the
final dichotomy. Productivediscomfort, what does it do? It
hurts. Unproductive discomfortharms.
And what I'm really thinkingabout here is who's the man, the
woman, the leader, the Christfollower, the community member
that you're called to be?Productive discomfort, it's
discomfort that hurts. Right?And and man, it'll make you
(36:00):
sore. And it's like, man, Idon't wanna be doing this right
now.
This is hard, but so iseverything else that requires
growth. And patience is equatedto suffering. We've gotta
remember that. But here's thething. Is this the type of hurt
that is going to make you intomore of the man, the woman, the
leader, the Christ follower, thecommunity member that you are
uniquely called to be?
(36:21):
And if the answer is yes, thenyou're like, this hurts, but
this too shall pass. I'm calledto be patient. Unproductive
discomfort, what does it do? Itharms. And it makes you less of
the person that you're called tobe.
And every day you stay is not anexercise in noble, God honoring
patience. It's an exercise inself deprecation and emaciation
(36:43):
in some ways. Right? You'rebecoming less of what you're
supposed to be. And if that'sthe case, it's not patience that
you're exercising.
It's stupid persistence and, inmany ways, stubbornness. And so
let's think about productivediscomfort. If there's something
that you're in right now,whether it's a team member that
you've got on your team, it's ajob that's uncomfortable, it's,
(37:06):
business unit that isn't quitehitting it right now, it's a
contract with a customer thatisn't flourishing. First
question you gotta ask, does italign with my mission and value?
Second question, is thereopportunity for improvement of
effort and results on my end?
Third question, what are thealternatives? And then fourth
question, is this hurt or harm?And I, again, wanna encourage
you, download the growth guidebecause that really visually
(37:27):
lays out this table in a waythat makes it easy to see. But
that's how we evaluate, and it'sreally getting clear on what are
we talking about here. And man,I can just tell you from
personal experience that it isso helpful to get clear on these
questions and these particularcriteria, because if you get
clear on them, they're gonnagive you the patience to be able
(37:50):
to endure through discomfortthat is actually productive.
Because you're gonna see meaningin it. You're gonna understand,
okay, this is actually connectedto something bigger. And that
was the case. In that particularseason at Ramsey for me, it was
about a year and a half in thatthat I was starting to
experience the stress and askthose questions. And I have a
couple of really goodconversations that were very
(38:10):
much rooted in these principleswith mentors and leaders that I
really respect, and it wastaking an honest look in the
mirror and saying, man, this ismission and values aligned.
There's not better alternatives.There's opportunity for me to
get better. And although it doeshurt, it's not in any way
harming me. In fact, I'm gettingbetter every single day in front
of the man, the leader, or theChrist follower that I'm called
(38:31):
to be. And so it was like, thisis a situation that calls for
patience.
If I didn't have thoseprinciples to lead on, I would
have been guided by my emotions,and patient leaders are never
guided by their emotions.Because the reality is is that
your emotions experience thatdiscomfort and say, we're out.
We're done with this. But what'sso cool is I stayed another
(38:55):
almost three years after that.And over that course of that
three years, I started coachingbusiness leaders.
And then from coaching businessleaders, I started hosting and
emceeing live events, which wasjust absolutely incredible and
learning from all the speakersat those live events and
learning about communicationfrom people like the GOAT
himself, Dave Ramsey. And thenit was on the other side of that
(39:15):
that I became the host of theEntreLeadership podcast and for
a season got paid to interviewpeople like John Maxwell, Jocko
Willink, Marie Forleo. Right?Just a litany of really, really
amazing leaders that I got tolearn from on behalf of other
people. And if I didn't have thepatience to stick through that
really challenging and stressfulseason, I would have never
(39:35):
gotten to experience that.
But then, as you know, if you'relistening to this podcast,
right, it was close to four anda half years in that I
experienced a similar tension,although it was in a way
healthier way. We've discussedit earlier on the podcast. And
it was in that that I actuallytalked to people at Ramsey, and,
and I also, talked to people inmy personal life. And I said,
(39:57):
man, does this align with mymission and values? The answer
was still yes.
Ramsey did align with my missionand values. Was there
opportunity for improvement ofeffort and results? Yes. In many
ways, there were opportunitiesfor improvement, but I could
also picture alternatives wherethere were opportunities for me
to grow into more of the manthat I was called to be. And
that was really the distinctionis that although these two paths
(40:20):
both align with my mission andvalues, I could grow in each of
them.
Before, a year and a half in,there weren't very good
alternatives. Like, what are yougonna go do? Well, nothing
better than where I am rightnow. And then on the other side,
it's like, man, not only isthere something that I feel
really called to, which isstarting this business called
Path for Growth. I think for meto stay here in this corporation
(40:44):
where I'm not pursuing thatwould actually start to become
harmful.
Not because it was harmful mebeing there at that time, it was
actually really good. I wasthriving there and I loved
working there in so many ways.But man, I could see every day
that I spent not leaving tostart this business was an
opportunity where I could startto get bitter and resentful and
(41:04):
not at anyone else, just atmyself because I was sabotaging
what I felt like I was actuallycalled to do. And so in so many
ways, that's what made thedecision at that period of my
life different than the onebefore. But you can see how it's
like, man, it's productivediscomfort versus unproductive
discomfort.
If I would have stayed four anda half years in and said, no, I
(41:26):
mean, the opportunity is toogood here, the salary is too
predictable, there's too manythings. I can tell you, I know
people that have done that atother companies, right? And it
does not go well with theirsoul. It becomes extremely
unproductive and it's actuallythe opposite of patients. So
what do patient leaders know?
They know the oppositionalnature of first and second and
third order consequences, andthey know the difference between
(41:48):
productive and unproductivediscomfort. Finally, what do
patient leaders know? They know,they understand, they deeply
believe in the compounding valueof staying on the same path. I
first illustrated this point atone of our in person
experiences. It was one that wehosted in Asheville, and I'll
never forget the room.
It was the height of fall colorsin Asheville, North Carolina,
(42:10):
just absolutely gorgeous. Thisroom was surrounded by windows.
About 40 liters in the room.It's just such a powerful
moment. And I asked the questionto start the session.
I said, what is something in thenatural world that represents
impact? I asked the question,and this was like something
where I was like, when I waswriting this content, I was
like, I think people will getthis, but I really hope they get
(42:34):
it. Because in my mind, I'mthinking to myself, I live in
Arizona, the obvious answer tothat question, what is something
in the natural world thatrepresents impact? The obvious
answer is Grand Canyon, but I'mlike, I hope that it's as
obvious to them as it is to mebecause otherwise this
illustration is gonna be reallyhard to to shoehorn in here. So
I asked the question, what issomething in the natural world
that represents impact?
(42:55):
And without even pausing amoment, it didn't even skip a
beat, it was like the first wordthat came out of his mouth, it
was Herb Sargent, I'll neverforget it. I was so grateful he
was in the room that day becausehe wasn't prepped, he wasn't
prime, he just said the GrandCanyon. I was like Herb, you're
my dude, right? Thanks for beinghere. And so, yes, right?
The Grand Canyon is a visualrepresentation of impact that to
(43:19):
such a degree that I ask thatquestion and it's the first
words that come out of someone'smouth in the room. Right? It's
like when we think of impact andwhen we think of impact in God's
creation, what do we think of?We think about the Grand Canyon.
It's 6,000 feet deep at itsdeepest point.
It's 18 miles wide at its widestpoint. Now think about how that
(43:41):
impact was created for a second.Water moving in the same
direction over time. How was theimpact of 6,000 feet deep, 18
miles wide at its widest point?How was that impact created?
Water moving in the samedirection over time. Now, that's
(44:03):
actually a really importantreality to consider about
creation that affects us asleaders because I think it
directly applies to a principlethat patient leaders deeply
understand and believe. Impactdriven leaders never stay in the
same place, but they always stayon the same path. Whenever we
talk about patients, what doimpact driven leaders always get
(44:26):
concerned about? What do theyalways get worried about?
What do they get anxious about?It's misappropriated anxiety,
but it's anxiety nonetheless. Idon't wanna get stagnant. I
don't wanna get complacent. Idon't just wanna stay where I'm
at.
That's not good. Right? But whatdo impact driven leaders
actually do? Well, if you'regonna make an impact, what do
you have to do? You don't stayin the same place.
I would never argue that youshould stay in the same place
(44:49):
because that is complacency,that is stagnancy, that is
stultification. But what do youhave to do? You have to stay on
the same path. You gotta makesure that you're making deposits
into the same account. You gottamake sure that you're chopping
the same tree.
You gotta make sure that you'removing in the same direction
over an extended period of time.That's the question that we
(45:09):
really have to consider if wewanna create impact over time.
It's the question that we'regonna be really diving deeper
into at our experience in Austinin October called Long Game
Leadership is, what's the paththat you are on, and how do you
make sure you stay on it? Andreally, those two questions are
gonna inform our next podcastepisode in this series because
(45:31):
we're gonna look at what doespatients do. So impact driven
leaders never stay in the sameplace, but they always stay on
the same path.
So the question I've got for youis what's the path you're on and
how do you make sure you stay onit? And, man, we're gonna dive
into five really practicalactions
of,
like, making sure you know your path and making sure
(45:53):
you stay on that path in thenext episode. So I wanna make
sure that you're subscribed tothe podcast. And then, again,
think about the three actions wetalked about in the first
episode of this series. Listenthoughtfully, reflect
intentionally using the growthguide. You can click the link in
the show notes if you don't yethave that downloaded.
And then discuss it openly,right? It's so helpful to share
this content, especially aboutpatients with people because you
(46:15):
can start turning that, okay?Because then you can ask each
other questions and it doesn'tjust become this individualized
isolated effort because healthygrowth never occurs in
isolation. And also, I'd beremiss not to say that all of
this content is reallyfoundational for me as I start
to think about the wholecurriculum of content we're
gonna be sharing with a group of45 leaders in Austin, Texas in
(46:40):
October of twenty twenty five.The theme of that experience is
going to be long gameleadership.
And the idea there is culturallytoday, man, we have such a high
propensity to pursue things thatare superficial, that are
actually distractions, and thatactually don't result in lasting
impact over time. But what do wewant to pursue? Well, we don't
(47:00):
wanna play the short game, wewanna play the long game. And so
we're gonna do a study, right?It's gonna be a study, it's
gonna be in-depth, it's gonna bea jolt that moves us forward,
expands our mind, expands ouremotions around this idea of
long game leadership.
I'm so excited about the crewthat's gonna be there. We've got
60% of the room all the way fullalready, and we're so many
months out. We'd love to haveyou there if you're an impact
(47:22):
driven leader that owns or runsa business. If you are
interested in joining us inAustin, Texas, make sure you
click the link that's in theshow notes, and you can find out
all the information at thatlink. Y'all know this.
We're rooting for you. We'repraying for you. We wanna see
you win. Remember, my strengthis not for me. Your strength is
not for you.
Our strength is for service. Let's go. Let's go.
(47:46):
Let's
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