When Work Clashes with Biological Design with Olivia Graham

Men and women are wired differently, and that wiring impacts the way we relate to work and to each other. In this episode, Path for Growth Coaching Manager Olivia Graham explains how learning about biological relations has changed the way she views work and leadership. She and Alex discuss some of the tensions men and women face when operating against their biological design, and then they explore some of the practical ways leaders can support the women and men who work for them. 

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Episode Recap:

• What are biological relations, and why did you decide to start learning about them?
• When you understand how people are wired, it’s easier to collaborate with them. 
• Our value is not in the work we produce, but so often culture tells us otherwise. 
• Men and women have different hormone levels that impact our behavior.
• How can leaning into your biological design help you if you choose to work? 
• What does it look like when men are acting outside of their biological design? 
• How should an understanding of these concepts impact the way we lead people? 

If you’re ready to move beyond just gathering information and start executing on what truly matters, Path for Growth’s 1-on-1 coaching can help. Apply now at pathforgrowth.com/coaching.

Resources:

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, Olivia. I'm gonna start in a way that they

(00:02):
always tell you you shouldn'tstart, that's with a three part
question. So I hope you're coolwith that.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Number one, what is biological relations? Number
two, why did you pursue learningabout it? And then number three,
what's the value you've gottensince you've gone down that
path?

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Great questions. So to start, biological relations
is taking the understanding ofwomen and men outside of our
modern context. So our moderncontext is really safe. Most of
us are fortunate enough to havea home, to have easy access to

(00:40):
food, easy access to water. Andbecause of this, there's a split
of humans from other animals.
Other animals still have toreally think about these things.
There's many splits betweenhumans and other animals. But
from a biological perspective,what humans used to have to,
they had these fears, thesethreats when we lived in the

(01:03):
forest. And because of this,we've really lost sight of how
we are biologically hardwired asmen and as women. And in some
ways, like we live in thegreatest time in the world.
Like we are just Abundance is sorich for so many people. But

(01:24):
when we become unaware of ourbiological hardwiring, what
we'll start to notice is issuesin our relationships,
specifically in our marriages.We'll have tensions in the
workforce, specifically betweenmen and women. We'll have
depression, we'll have anxiety.And all of this in so many ways

(01:46):
is rooted because we don'tunderstand our unique biology
and we don't understand how ourunique biology has a
relationship with the othergender.
And so that's biologicalrelations in a nutshell. And I'm
sure we'll double click into alot of that throughout this

(02:07):
hour. But be so kind. Remind meof question number two. And

Speaker 1 (02:12):
that right there is why they tell you you should
never do that because you'regonna end up saying it again
anyway. So and maybe there'ssomething in how I'm wired that
made me do that and bite offmore than I I could chew in some
ways. Okay. Question two waslike, what was the context for
you starting to pursue this?Because I I know exactly when it
was, but it I work closely withyou, obviously.

(02:33):
You're our coaching managerhere. And it was probably in the
past maybe year and a half totwo years, I experienced like
this this passion from youassociated with this. Like what
spurred that? And then what didthe path to you learning all of
this look like for you?

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Yeah. So in terms of what spurred it from a conscious
perspective, just some low gradecuriosity. I had some friends
who were about to take thisclass on biological relations
and they were talking about thedoctor who was going to be
teaching it. And I truly justthought that sounds interesting.
And I dove in.
What I now know in hindsight, itreally feels like a God thing

(03:12):
because at the time, let's see,I had a four year old and a one
year old working at Paths forGrowth. And I just started
feeling really burnt out. Like Ifelt like work wasn't as fun as
it once was. I felt likemotherhood wasn't as easy as it
once was. I wasn't reallyenjoying my husband as much as I
once did.

(03:33):
It felt like everything tooklike this mental extra effort.
And this class really opened myeyes to so many reasons as to
why that was. And so I just amso thankful and grateful for
God's provision in that season.And now I see other people who
are in situations like I wasexperiencing and still do. Like

(03:53):
I can still very much slip outof biological design and
experience all of those things,especially when both kids are
running a fever and there's awork deadline.
But I now just feel reallypassionate specifically when I'm
talking with our one on onecustomers when I see, well, this
feels really hard because you'renot actually approaching this

(04:14):
aligned biologically.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah. And I mean, I hear you reference it on our
office hours calls. I hear you Iyou talk about how you're
referencing it in coachingcalls. I'll never forget, we
were at a in person workshopthat we were doing with some of
our Orthodox Jewish connectionsand clients up in the New York,
in the Brooklyn area. And thisis where it clicked for me, the

(04:38):
power in what you've learned iswe were talking about business
growth and I think we wereparticularly talking about what
it looks like to play the roleof CEO and work on a business
and talking about the creationof an annual plan in conjunction
with all of that.
We were in the Q and A time atthe end of the session and a
question around distraction andhow do you stay focused and how

(05:01):
do you manage all of the demandsgoing on throughout the day came
up. I gave my answer to thatquestion and it was, I guess it
was good, right? But it wasn'tlike there was this overwhelming
response. There certainly wasn'ta standing ovation to my answer.
But then I'll never forget, Ijust tossed it to you and I

(05:21):
said, Olivia, I'd love to hearyour thoughts on this.
And you took it in a verydifferent way than I took it.
And I'll never forget, you said,well, I think this is a
challenge that could beperceived differently between
men and women. You addressed thewomen in the room and I saw them
like, I mean, just like almostphysically nodding their entire

(05:42):
body, like saying, yes, we agreewith you. And then you kind of
even suggested, here's how Icould see it could be different
for men too, and there was likea physical response. I was like,
man, I wish I could get thattype of response when I say
things.
But that's for me when itclicked like, oh man, there's
something that has deepresonance with people even if
they'd never heard the termbiological relations. And so I

(06:04):
want to get into some of the bigthings that you've learned and
how they apply to leadership andhow we lead at home and all of
that as well. But first, I'djust love to hear from you, what
is, if you were to point to,man, this is the greatest value
that I've experienced from whatI've learned in this arena, what
have you physically tangiblyexperienced that's different

(06:26):
because now you know some of theinformation that we're going to
talk about here today?

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Two fold. I think that when I am interacting with
men, I have a dramaticallydifferent perspective as to why
certain decisions are beingmade, certain actions are being
done. And it just allows acertain collaboration that
wasn't, I'm not competing withmen anymore. It's like, there's

(06:51):
just this beautifulcollaboration that I'm getting
to experience. And as a mom oftwo boys, that applies all the
way down to my two year old.
And then I also think I'mexperiencing a greater sense of
peace, of alignment, of fun anda juicy creativeness that comes
when you're not trying so hard,which kind of felt like the

(07:13):
first ten years of my career.And when you ask like, what's
the greatest benefit? What's thegreatest blessing? I would say
those two pieces are the thingsthat come to mind right off the
bat.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, really good. Another question that I have
before we jump in is it wasinteresting. You wrote up a
whole document of lessons for mejust so I could prep myself as
we get into this conversationhere today. I asked you for five
lessons and I think you sent 23,Olivia, so that was a great
move. As I was going throughthat document, I felt as though

(07:49):
much of what you wrote wasgeneral common sense about how
men and women are wired.
And at the same time, this wasbizarre. At the same time as I
was reading it, I was like, wow,this could be kind of
controversial. And that was justa weird moment for me to realize
like this stuff that I actuallythink is kind of common sense is

(08:10):
controversial. And I just wantedto get your thoughts on theories
on why that's the case. Why iswhat we're gonna talk about
today, can it maybe rufflepeople's feathers?
And if people start to feelmaybe a little bit defensive or
a little bit anxious with whatwe talk about today, any
encouragement you would give tothem as we kind of walk through
this?

Speaker 2 (08:29):
To start with theories, I would really love to
hear your just off the cufftheories as to why it could be
as well.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
I'm always thrilled when someone says they wanna
hear my off the cuff theories.That's really I've

Speaker 2 (08:41):
had, like, two years to sit and think about this, I'm
still not sure. Maybe, when Ihave engaged in this content
with men, I have yet toexperience a man who has any
ruffled feathers. Almost everysingle man that I have talked to

(09:03):
about what we're going to diveinto today, he says, this is
absolute common sense. And so Ithink part of why when you read
this, it's because you are aman. And men, just because of
how your brain is hardwired, Ijust think it makes sense.
Women, we are designed to have agreater need for safety. So our

(09:26):
brains are hardwired to see, arewe safe or is there a threat?
The modern world allows women tobe safe without needing a man.
Like we used to need men to goand kill animals and make the
fire and build the fort becausewe were at home with the

(09:47):
children. This day and age, Imean, you don't need that like
we once did.
And I think that the potentialruffling feathers comes when
women will hear these things andbe like, what, hold on. Woah,
woah, wait, what do you mean?You're telling me like all this
stuff that's making me feelreally safe and secure, that's

(10:08):
actually not how I should beliving my life in complete
control over all of these thingsbecause I can, because it's
available to me. And so Iexperienced that. I experienced
so many times where I was like,this just feels really against
what I was taught.
Because I think we are taughtnow as women to to really be

(10:31):
able to stand on our own twofeet because then we don't need
anyone and then we're ultimatelysafe.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
And so that kind of hits on like how we hope people
will listen to this. Like, Iwould hope you listen to

(12:23):
understand, and and that doesnot mean you have to listen to
agree. Listen to understand. Andif you disagree, make sure you
put that in the comments on thepodcast. And, like, I I'd love
to hear disagreements because Ithink that's how we all learn.
But culturally, can live in atime where we say, don't agree
with that and so I'm gonnaimmediately stop listening. I
think that's incredibly unwiseand not helpful for anyone.

(12:44):
Because what if we're wrong?Then we're never gonna know
we're wrong because you just,you know, canceled us
essentially. So what I would sayand I think it aligns with
yours, I've always thought itwould be fun to write a post or
a book or do a podcast orsomething about defensiveness
that just is called your idolsare showing.
And I think this is an exampleor can be an example of that.

(13:07):
And I don't think I wouldcertainly not be as presumptuous
to say this is like, oh, women'sidols are showing. I think it's
our cultural idols showing Andthat we have created a society
that sends the message everysingle day, your value is
directly tied to your work. Youridentity is tied to your work.

(13:27):
What are you producing?
And as a result, frame ofreference or line of thinking
like what we're about to talkabout here today that suggests
that, man, maybe women'sgreatest contribution is not in
the office or in themarketplace. Perhaps their
greatest contribution is undertheir own roof with their

(13:49):
children and their spouse. Thatfeels radical, right? Because
that's basically dethroning anidol. Although it's the way the
world has operated for thousandsof years, if not longer than
that, we've become so entrenchedin this new belief system that
our value and identity comesfrom our work in the past two

(14:11):
hundred years that it feels likean attack to say something
different.
You have thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (14:17):
I just wholeheartedly agree except for the one part
where you said two hundredyears. It's like women didn't
really enter the workforce untilwhat, the 1920s. So a hundred
years ago, this is all reallynew and yet it took really
quick.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, that's right. I'll never forget. I had someone
send me a message. I can'tremember what social media
account it was on, but it wasafter a speaking gig that I did
and this was years ago now. Theysent me a message and they were
talking about how it was a womanand she sent a message saying
she'd spent the past decade ofher life really attending to her

(14:53):
kids at home and making surethat she was providing a great
atmosphere for her husbandwhenever he came home from work
and all of that and doing all ofthat.
A very traditional view of awoman's role in the household is
basically what she described.And then I'll never forget the
exact sentence she said. Shesaid, Alex, I'm done playing

(15:14):
small ball. And then she said,like, I'm ready to get to work.
And I legit think she waslooking for me to, like, applaud
that idea.
What I'm not saying is that sheshouldn't go start a business,
shouldn't get to work, all ofthat. What I am saying is the

(15:35):
fact that our culture has taughtwomen or taught people in
general that taking care ofchildren and providing an
incredibly hospitableenvironment in your house for
your family to thrive is smallball, I think that is just
devastating to me.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
I agree. I actually remember that message and you
telling that to me, like,because it just stuck out so, so
much. Well, my hope is that anywomen listening to today's
episode, it's very possible thatthey feel that way. I have felt
that way at times. And my hopeis that today's episode will

(16:14):
really shed some light ontomaybe why you could be feeling
that way and some potentialsteps of what to do and then
ultimately some hope when you'rein that kind of a situation
because that is hard and it'snot helpful to just be like, oh,
you shouldn't be feeling thatway.
Like that's wrong. That doesnothing but perpetuate the
situation.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah. And I know you made sure to tell me like, Alex,
if we're going to do thispodcast episode, I wanna make
sure people know like I'm not aPhD in biological relations.
Like, how do you think aboutyour role in talking about this?
Like, how do you like to thinkabout when you come to a
conversation like this, Lydia?

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yes. My my greatest anxiety before doing this
episode was exactly that. And Ishared that with you and I said,
Alex, look, my work hasabsolutely nothing to do with
this topic. I just find itincredibly interesting. And as a
result, I've been studying itfor the past eighteen months and

(17:09):
I have just experiencedtransformational change in my
marriage, in my way that Iparent my kids and in the way I
show up at work.
And so like, I'm just thispractitioner and like, I don't
know how helpful I can be but Ican share some lessons learned.
And you were like, Olivia,that's the exact reason you
should be able to. So I am noexpert. If listening to some of

(17:32):
what I'm sharing is interestingto you, then I have some
resources for you to dive deeperwith experts. But my hope is
you'll still gleam some helpfulthings from this topic.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah. So let's go ahead and say that. Let's say
that we're going to provide tworesources in the show notes.
Number one is we'll provide alist of resources that Olivia
would recommend on this topic ifyou wanna go deeper on this
topic. And then Olivia, ifyou're cool with it too, I'd
love for us to put a PDF versionof all of the 23 or however many
lessons that you wrote down thatyou And it's really just the

(18:03):
lessons that you've learned fromyour time in this because we're
certainly just going to scratchthe surface on this today.
So with that, here's how I'dlike to frame kind of as we dive
deeper into this topic ofbiological relations. What are
the basic ideas, the fundamentalideas, and you may have already
said some of them, but I thinkthey bear repeating, from

(18:23):
biological relations that youjust find yourself wishing
everyone knew? Are therespecific things that stand out?

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yes. Okay. So when you think about the brain, the
left side of the brain isthought of as the female side
because it dictates our estrogenlevels. The right side of the
brain is thought of as the maleside of the brain because it
dictates our testosteronelevels. There's a lot of other

(18:51):
reasons, but for the sake ofthis conversation, that's really
what you need to know.
And so it's really importantobviously for bare things like
reproduction for our estrogenand testosterone levels to be at
a healthy place. Now, our bodiesare really smart. We adapt given

(19:11):
the situations and circumstancesthat we find ourselves in. And
so when you think abouttestosterone, that is the
hormone that's really triggeringcompetition, activity, energy,
creativity. It's a very movableaction oriented hormone.
Where estrogen is very muchyou're nurturing, you're more

(19:34):
soft, you're slower, you're morein tuned with other people's
emotions, feelings. And so youcan see why it's really
important specifically for amother to a baby to have a
heightened sense of estrogen.Now, when women enter into the
workforce, what is required ofthem? What is required of them

(19:54):
is what testosterone asks of us.And what is a pretty common
thing happening amongst women isour bodies are adapting.
And so in order to keep up withthis activity in the workforce,
our testosterone levels arehaving to rise. So then what
happens? You go home and all ofa sudden, like you're short with

(20:17):
your kids, which is not neitherhere nor there. It's like you
don't have that estrogen levelthat is required to be like soft
and gentle when your kids areasking 500 why questions. But
what's crazy is like naturewon't let like and likes sit
next to each other.

(20:37):
There's this constant balance.So if a woman is increasing her
testosterone to keep up in theworkforce, then you're going to
witness a shift in the man aswell. And so his testosterone
has to come down and hisestrogen has to go up to create
this mirrored balance. And sothis is where women oftentimes

(20:58):
are like, why do I have to nagmy husband to like take out the
garbage? I just don't get it.
Like his action just doesn'treally seem to be there. Well,
this kind of thing is at play.And so the first thing we have
to understand about biologicalrelations is this, the way that
these hormones are contributingto our behavior. I have one

(21:19):
other thing that's reallyimportant, but I'll pause in
case there's something that youwant to respond to.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
I appreciate the pause. That's very thoughtful. I
feel like I want to be likeMichael Scott when he's like,
explain it to me like you wouldexplain it to a first grader. I
want to make sure I'munderstanding this right. So the
way I thought you were going totake that was, well, first of
all, correct me if I'm wrong.
Men and women have bothtestosterone and estrogen,
correct? Okay. And that isnormal and good, correct? Okay.

(21:47):
And

Speaker 2 (21:48):
it'd be a huge problem if you lacked one of
them.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, that's right. Okay. The way I thought you were
going to take this is men havemore testosterone, therefore
they are going to act this way.And whenever they act different
than that, maybe more passive oror more laid back or or things
like that, then they areoperating out of alignment with

(22:12):
what their testosterone level istelling them to do. But what's
interesting is it sounds likewhat you're saying is that if we
start maybe as a pattern orchronically acting in ways that
are passive, that are laid back,that are not in alignment with
testosterone, it's possible forour testosterone hormone to

(22:32):
actually drop.
Is that what you're saying?Really? So it's not just that
the hormone is the cause, it'salso the effect of our actions
can affect our testosterone orestrogen levels.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, effect, the woman's actions, that's what's
crazy, is women impact men. Mendon't impact women as directly,
but we can come back to that. Soto your point, like aligned with
why does a man need so muchtestosterone and why does a
woman need so much estrogen? Somen are biologically hardwired

(23:07):
to do a small handful of things.They're designed to establish a
territory, which if you thinkabout the woods, it's basically
like your land where your familyis going to thrive.
In modern sense, it could beyour job. It could be any number
of things that are providing forthe family unit. So establish a

(23:30):
territory, provide and protect.Biologically, that is what a man
is put on this earth to do. Fora woman, she views everything
from the perspective of thenest.
So the nest being the family andthe individuals in the family.
So men think about like thecollective tribe where women are

(23:53):
like, I'm eye to eye with thisone person, this one child. And
so because they're nest focused,they are biologically hardwired
for safety and security. And soour bodies are really, really
smart. The reason that we havethese hormone levels is because
it helps us align with thesethings that we need as men and

(24:17):
women.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Interesting. Okay. And so therefore, let's say if a
woman in a married couple startsto act more domineering,
aggressive, assertive, maybeeven starts to take on the role
of I gain territory, I protect,I provide, then what you're
saying is the man will react tothat and the reaction to that

(24:41):
well, I would assume onereaction could be tell me if
this is true. One reaction couldbe spike in testosterone that
becomes aggressive and dangerousquite frankly or just leaving
altogether saying like I can'tdo this or what you're saying
the more often reaction is adrop in testosterone that they

(25:02):
then become more of the passiveactor in a relationship. Is that
right?

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yes. So you're absolutely going to see the
situations of like, I'maggressively now going towards
the woman. But what I'm morecommonly see is the passive
route. And that's because menreally love women the way that
women love children and the waythat children love pets. Like if

(25:28):
a woman's listening to this,like you will literally do
anything to see your childsmile.
You will literally do anythingto make them feel safe and
secure. A man views a woman inthe same way. And so when a
woman becomes more of thataggressive go getter type, the
man has it because he's like, Iwanna I wanna see her happy. I

(25:51):
wanna see her do what she wantsto do. He has to become the
passive, like the more passiveperson in the relationship.
And then as you can probablyimagine, like it just becomes
this cyclical problem.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah. Okay. So and I think I could use you as an
example here of Yes. I could usea number of women that I know as
an example here where I wouldsay like, obviously they're a
woman, so they're wiredgenerally and biologically in
the way you're talking about.But whenever I look at you, I'm
like, man, one of Olivia's greatpersonality traits is she's

(26:25):
assertive and she's incrediblycreative and she's a go getter,
right?
Or things that I would say aboutyou. So how do you reconcile
those two? It's like, yes, youare a woman, but you are also
assertive, creative and a gogetter. How do you think about
those two things going together?And do you agree with me?

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah. So, I mean, as you said a second ago, everybody
has testosterone, everybody hasestrogen. And so you're not just
like this woman laying on thecouch eating bonbons like all
day long. Like that soundsterrible. Bet every person
listening could be like, sowomen of course have drive, of
course have creativity.

(27:02):
I feel like so much of thecreativity in the world comes
from women. But what we have torealize is that women don't have
the same longevity as men. Sothis is what I experienced. All
throughout my twenties, I was apicture perfect go getter type.
Like I was in sales, I started abusiness, everything about like

(27:26):
how I focus my time, energy,etcetera.
It was about growth and success.Because of the modern workforce,
like women honestly have theskill set to do really well
because we are more natural atinterpersonal relationships.
Intuition is really strong inwomen because of our high

(27:47):
emotional IQ that allows us toreally read rooms and situations
like the forest where people gohunt is now the modern workplace
and women actually do incrediblywell in that environment. But
what you'll tend to experienceis you'll hit your thirties and
your male counterparts like menare inexhaustible. They can just

(28:11):
keep going and going and going.
And then you're going tosuddenly like start having
children and you're just goingto feel really tired. You're
gonna be like, Oh my gosh, likethis used to be so easy for me.
Why in the world does thissuddenly feel like such a
heavier lift? And it's becauseof these biological differences.
And so you have kind of a couplechoices.

(28:32):
You can either choose to doeverything you've been doing,
which is kind of gonna result infurther fatigue as a woman,
greater drain on the familyunit, frustration, bitterness,
kind of falling into avictimhood mentality while your
male counterparts are just likecruising and going. Or you can

(28:53):
choose to show up and workdifferently in a more feminine
way. And that's what I've reallybeen trying to learn these past
eighteen months is how can Istill produce really beautiful
results without it having thesame like intensity and edge
that it once did that was kindof draining me?

Speaker 1 (29:12):
I love that you that you kind of highlight that

(30:18):
there's well, you highlightedtwo options and I think there's
also a third option that I Ithink it's okay. It's it's
exactly what Aspen did. Right?Aspen is my wife. Right?
It's like option one is ignoreall the signals, double down.
Option two is acknowledge howyou're wired and creatively

(30:40):
figure out how to work inalignment with that. And then
option three is saying like,man, my season of work might be
done for a period, for a season,or it might be done forever. And
like my work is now at the homeand that's what I do now. And
And it's wild to me though thatI actually really admire Aspen

(31:00):
for it because we collaboratedon the decision that she was
going to stay home, butobviously I let her in some ways
lead on the ultimate decisionaround that.
And there's just so muchpressure today that says you
can't do that. It's wild. And ifI was in her shoes because
there's so much pressure, evenif it was something that I

(31:21):
wanted to do, I don't know thatI would have felt okay doing
that. But there's three optionsessentially is what we're
saying. Yeah?

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yes. Absolutely. And what's really interesting, I'm
still kind of chewing on if Ibelieve this is 100% true, but I
believe that it is possiblytrue, is that pressure that
Aspen is experiencing doesn'tcome from men, it comes from
other women.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
For for sure it does. And what's crazy is and this is
Aspen's personality type in someways. She's a nine on the
Enneagram, I actually don'tthink she experiences it as
pressure. I think she felt veryconfident in her decision. I'll
never forget whenever she said,Alex, I think my dream job is to
be a mom and that's just what Iwant to do.
And it was just so cool for herto say that and then to

(32:08):
confidently execute on that. AndGod has really provided for us
to be able to do that. But I dothink that there is a lot of
cultural and external pressurethat would look at that
statement, my dream job is to bea mom and say, oh, you are less
than.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
Mhmm.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
But I also think, and I can think of, I I mean, I
think of you as a great exampleof this. I also think of my
sister as a great example ofthis. I also have a really good
friend in my small group that Iwould think of as an example of
this, of like, I think all threeof you love work and like you
really enjoy the role that youget to play at work. However, I
mean, is it safe to say likeyou're operating at your best

(32:47):
when you don't just approach thework the way you did in your
20s, but rather you modify theway that you approach the work
and try to align your approachto your design? Is that a good
way of summarizing it?

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yes. Which is perhaps a good segue into some of the
family ecology that we've talkedabout of what it looks like to
be a woman who does work knowingthat in some ways this is going
to be a bit of tension in yourbiological design, but how to
make it work and get a feedbackloop in your family to know, am
I aligned or am I misaligned?

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Are you saying that if you're going to be a woman
that's going to play the role ofmom, wife, and employee in the
marketplace or business owner inthe marketplace, you will likely
experience tension around that.And that tension is not
necessarily something thatyou're going to do away with.
Rather, it's a tension to bemanaged in a healthy way?

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yes, 100%. So it's a kind of layered. So like I love
the work that we do with Pathfor Growth. I find it so
intellectually stimulating. Ilove the mission that we're on.
I love the social component withthe team. I love all of these
aspects to it. But at the end ofthe day, there is always this
tension between when I leave togo to work and my children. And

(34:09):
I think that any woman would sayI experienced the same. Like
there's just this tension.
Now I choose to wrestle with thetension and pay really close
attention to the feedback loopsin my family to know, is this
still healthy and good?

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yeah. There's so many doors that that opens, I think.
But one of the things that comesto mind for me as you say that
is like this is a tension thatwomen are engaging with if they
play those three roles is whatyou're saying. Or they are
experiencing it, they'reengaging with it or not might be

(34:50):
a different story. But ifthey're playing the role of mom,
wife, and employee or businessowner and particularly if you
have team members on your teamand you're a business owner and
probably particularly if you'rea man that's a business owner,
it would be really wise to keepin mind that that's a tension

(35:13):
that's going on.
Not because you have to bow downand change your company's
policies or structure toaccommodate for that tension but
maybe more just so that you'renot entirely unempathetic to the
reality of what it looks like toplay all of those three roles
well. Because I bet if you'renot empathetic to that, my guess

(35:34):
is you're either not going toget that individual's best
performance over an extendedperiod of time or number two,
they're just going to leave.Like you're not going to retain
that person.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
Exactly. To that first point, I mean, as we
already said, women areincredibly valuable in the
workplace. And to the scenarioyou pointed out where it's like
a male CEO business owner whohas women on the team being
aware of this tension. And asyou said, like you're not

(36:03):
changing all the companypolicies, but something I love
about Path for Growth is that wehave the core value, freedom and
responsibility. And I'm veryaware of what my
responsibilities are in my role.
I'm very aware of what myresponsibilities are in my home.
And we have the freedom for meto have like the fluidity to
serve both responsibilitiesreally well. And I know that

(36:26):
benefits our team at Paths forGrowth, but I couldn't do the
work that I do if I was beinglike suppressed by the tension
of like a traditional job, likea traditional workplace, maybe
nine to five type thing.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
Mhmm. You know, it's interesting because I I I don't
know if that I necessarily planfor this podcast to be largely
about women in the workplace.Obviously, that's the
perspective that you candistinctly speak from because
you are, spoiler alert, a woman.Yeah. And we don't have to part
too long here.

(37:02):
If this is actually interestingto people and they wanna go
deeper in this, maybe we coulddo a follow-up episode. If you
have someone that you wouldrecommend as a guest, that could
be really interesting too. Butcan you clarify, what does it
look like when a man isoperating outside of his design?
Just give us a picture of kindof what that looks like. So
maybe men can kind of selfevaluate themselves and say, am

(37:25):
I operating in alignment with mywiring and what I was created
for?

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah. So men, when they are operating outside of
their design, they aredepressed, they're lethargic,
they've lost like vision andaim. And so whenever I am
interacting on office hours, ourinternal group coaching sessions
that we do, and somebody comesto the table and they say

(37:51):
something like, I have this teammember. And they were at once
this great team member, but nowlike I can't get them to do
anything. My immediate thoughtis, okay, something's going on
related probably to his wife,but it could be to his children.
It could be to maybe like apromotion that he didn't get

(38:13):
that he was thinking was gonnalike really set himself up
again. If we go back to men areterritory focused, they're
always looking to expand theirterritory. So like, was there a
certain failure around moneythat happened recently? Because
all of these types of behaviorsare related to what, again, a

(38:33):
drop in testosterone. And soit's a really interesting thing
to be mindful of because I leadall men.
And so it's something that ifyou don't really address it
pretty quickly, it can reap somepretty horrific outcomes.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah. What's wild is anecdotally, I can say this,
depressed, lacking vision,lacking aim, really very little
assertiveness, no sense ofpursuit in their lives. I think
it's actually probably safe tosay a majority of the men that I
meet are experiencing somecombination of those things. A

(39:17):
lot of the men it is for surethe case that a lot of the men
that I know personally areexperiencing a lot of those
things. Is that indicative ofthe way the world is structured
right now might not be conducivehospitable to men acting like
men.
Is that what's going on therefrom your perspective?

Speaker 2 (39:39):
100%. Like this might be the most controversial thing
I say on this podcast is womenin a narrative perspective, like
what you read and what you seeis like, Oh my gosh, poor women
were so suppressed. Thepatriarchy, all of that jazz.
Men, they're just like reallylike putting us down. That, no,

(40:00):
no, no, no.
Like are there examples of mentreating women poorly? 100%. But
when you look at the modernworld, it benefits women. It's
created this world where womendon't need men and men need to
be needed. Like they'reliterally put on this earth to
be needed by their woman andtherefore by their tribe.

(40:23):
And the second they're notneeded, their entire purpose
gets thrown out the window. Andmen like intuitively know this.
And so they don't want to justbe wanted by their wife. Like
they want to be truly needed bytheir wife. And like when that's
or like in the workplace orwherever it is, like whatever
they see as their territory.

(40:46):
And when that's not happening,well then the depression's
really going to come in. So thatwould be an example of like, I'm
not aligned with what God put mehere on this earth to do.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah. I heard Ben Shapiro once say, and and the
reason why I remembered thisquote, this was years ago, I
think, now that I've heard it,but I remembered it because it
it resonated so much with myactual experience. Not like I
chose this, but it it was whathappened to me, is men will do

(41:17):
nothing until they feel likethey have to, and then they will
do everything.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
And it

Speaker 1 (41:23):
was wild. Like, before I was married to Aspen
and now we have Lily, like, Ihad, like, seven t shirts, a
couch, a TV that stood on a t atable that wasn't even meant for
a TV. Zero, like, zerodecorations, zero furniture. It
was the blandest, most basicapartment ever. Right?

(41:45):
And and I was thrilled. Right? Iwas so happy. Like, I loved my
life. I was totally good.
Right? Because it's like, whowas I who was I providing for? I
was providing for me. I don'tneed much. Right?
I can fit everything I need in aRubbermaid bin. The minute the
minute it was crazy. The minuteAspen entered the picture and
then especially now with Lilyentering the picture, it was

(42:07):
like I had this insanemotivation to come to work with,
honestly, a little bit of asense of aggression about me,
like a a little bit of sense ofexcitement about me because I
felt like the stakes of me doingwhat we're doing within the
business were now so much biggerthan just my personal needs
because those were met a longtime ago. And then you add on

(42:29):
top of that, you know thepersonal context around this,
we've had some medicalchallenges with our nine month
old daughter. She turned my ninemonths old yesterday.
Thankfully, 98% of the timeshe's happy, but we've also
spent more time in the hospitalin the emergency room with my
nine month old daughter thanI've spent in my entire life,
right? And so it's a very scarysituation that we still don't

(42:50):
have answers on and we'repraying a lot for. But what's
crazy is I am sleeping lessright now than I've ever slept
in my entire life just becauseof the nature of her condition.
And I have so much energy forwork right now. And I think it's
a God thing, but I also thinkit's a wiring thing because I'm
like, I'm seeing these medicalbills and I'm like, I gotta get

(43:11):
to work, and I'm like excitedabout it.
It's like, I've got something todo, and I think that's what
you're talking about. It's likewe need something to fight for.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Absolutely. That is such a practical example. Again,
if we go back to territory,provide, protect, how do men
like tangibly tactically provideand protect? Well, they leave
and go get resources. And you'resaying like, I'm now so
motivated to go out and getresources for my expanded
territory, my now wife and mynow daughter, which I didn't

(43:39):
have that before.
And I've reflected on you andyour lack of sleep often the
past month or so because one,I'm like, oh, I really hope he's
sleeping at night. But two, I'veexperienced seasons where I'm
really lacking sleep and I can'tshow up to work. Like I'm
literally like, I need to be athome holding my baby. Like I've

(44:00):
expressed to you, Alex, if Iwere ever to have a third baby,
like it's really important to methat I have a very extended
maternity leave because it'slike crippling anxiety to me
thinking about not providingthat nest and safety and
security for that. And so Icould do two things.
I could be like, why can't I bemore like Alex? Like, why can't

(44:22):
I just like suck it up and havenever ending energy and just
show up to work sleep deprived?And many women do and many women
have to, which is also part oflike the sad piece to this. Or I
can soften into who I amdesigned as a woman to be,
accept it, and then just try toalign myself to that to the best

(44:44):
of my ability. Because the samething would be true of men.
Like if you were in thissituation with Lily and you were
physically being kept from goingto work, well, would be the
thing that would be giving youcrippling anxiety. You'd be
like, I have to get out there.And so we're just wired like
dramatically different incrisis.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah. This is probably as much on the adult
content side as we've ever gonein this podcast but it stood out
to me whenever I heard it. Iactually think it's relevant to
the group of people that we workwith. I just want to share it in
service of the people that wework with. I heard something
years ago quoted.
It'd be interesting to look upthe studies on this, but what I

(45:28):
heard from a reputable sourcewas they said that the data has
been looked at when there's abig game like a Super Bowl or a
World Series game or abasketball game or something
like that, basketballchampionship game, something
like that, college footballnational championship, the data
of the two opposing cities thatare represented in the game has

(45:51):
been looked at. Predominantly,sports are being watched largely
by men, Not all by men, but themajority of viewers is, in
general, men. And what's crazyis the team that gets defeated,
there is a noticeable spike inthat city and that area

(46:11):
accessing pornography thatevening. Well Which is just
devastating. It's so sad, butalso in light of what you're
talking about, it actually makessense.
Yes. And we can take it out ofthe realm of sports and just say
like, man, when you have anexpectation or have something
that you're aiming for or havesomething that you hope to see

(46:34):
happen that you're pursuing andit gets shut down or you lose,
right, you go to your copingmechanism. And we live in a
culture today that reinforcespassivity by just saying, you
don't have to pursue anything.We're going to put everything on
a buffet for you in the mosttoxic possible way. And I think

(46:54):
that creates this cycle whereinstead of being prompted to get
up, brush off your knees, wipeoff the blood in the dirt, and
get back to the pursuit, we canjust like lay down and become
these passive victims of ourlife.
And it's as easy as ever for aman to stay there, I think.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yes. So as you're saying this, there's maybe
layers to this that we'll haveto dissect. But what came to
mind is let's now bring thisback to business owners. So
you're a man, you own a businessand you have a vision, you have
an aim and it doesn't goaccording to plan. So similar to

(47:36):
like the sports, they lose,etcetera.
And so what can happen? Let'sassume that this man is like at
the height of his testosteroneand he has a failure. So he
doesn't kill the bear and dragit home to his family. That's
like literally what's happeningin your DNA in those situations.

(47:57):
So he goes home to his wife andhe says, Honey, we had this big
failure at work, which is a veryrelational makes sense thing to
do.
The wife, she really can make orbreak this situation. She can
allow him to wallow and be like,Oh, tell me how you're feeling.

(48:18):
Which intuitively is like what Iwould want to do. But I've just
not seen this too many timesthat I have to call attention to
it. Tell me how you're feeling.
I'm so sorry. Oh my goodness. Iget so sad. All that does is
like bring the man lower. And sothe woman, she really has to
kind of call him up to be a man.

(48:39):
A man needs to go truly like forthe most part with his failures
to other men. And those are thepeople that can really hold that
disappointment with him in a waythat's not going to allow him to
fall into this depression andpassivity. Because it's just

(49:00):
like, again, like a biologicalyin and yang, like they have the
testosterone so like we canraise them back up. And I've
seen this like time and timeagain with our coaches. Like
they come to us with really hardthings and the coaches are able
to talk to them about it, butreally then like affirm them in
who they were created to be.

(49:21):
And then they can go back out,kill something and drag it home.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah. Man, so good. And there's so much as a man
that listens to podcasts aboutbeing a man that's healthy and
effective and all of that. Thereis so much right now that talks
about the importance of being incommunity with other men and the
rarity of being in communitywith other men. It's clearly

(49:46):
what's going on there.
Like the biological thing that'shappening there is you're
getting around people that helpyou realign to your design in so
many ways, it sounds like. Okay,I'd like to maybe just
collaborate with you for thefinal few minutes on this
podcast on just what arestrategies for leading men well

(50:09):
that work in your business? Andyou lead three men right now,
Olivia. You've got three maledirect reports and you've got
male direct reports at home too.And you co CEO with your
husband.
So what does it look like tolead men well? And then what
does it look like for a businessowner or CEO to lead women well

(50:29):
in the marketplace? The otherthing that I want to mention as
we get into this is we wanted torecord this podcast as the
beginning of a conversation thatwill really, I think, come to
fruition at our in personexperience in October in Austin,
Texas. The theme of thatexperience we've talked about it
a lot on this podcast now islong game leadership. And I'm

(50:53):
excited because I've kind ofchallenged Olivia.
Acting in alignment with yourdesign and wiring is part of
being able to play the longgame. It is unsustainable to act
out of alignment with the wayyou were created and designed.
And so it's really importantinformation, I think, to be
aligned on. And so thankfully,she agreed to be preparing that

(51:14):
talk. And so we've got a handfulof months that we're going to be
preparing.
I mean, I'm just excited. I'mgoing to be taking notes on your
talk, Olivia. But thatexperience is currently, I
think, 70% sold out. So we'dlove to have you all join us in
Austin, Texas. We'll put thelink with all the info on that
in the show notes of thisepisode.
But with that, Olivia, let'sstart with the topic of leading

(51:35):
men since that's where we justleft off, and then we can go to
leading women well and what wecan do to lead women well. I
also think we should provide thecaveat here that no one is
advocating that you have to do180 degree transformation of
your organization overnight. Butit would be wise to be aware of

(51:56):
these realities and to try tooperate in alignment with them
is what we would say.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yes. Okay. So as I think about your question, I'm
gonna answer it as a womanleading men. And if you want, we
could discuss what it looks likeas a man leading men.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Because there's it's kind of a multi faceted answer.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
I think that's great.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
Okay. So as a woman, I am constantly aware that men
view help and support as verydifferent things. Women view
them as the same thing. When youtell a man or ask a man, can I
help you? You're basicallysaying, I don't think you're

(52:39):
capable of this.
And again, if we keep going backto nature, that's really
dangerous to not have the skillsto survive in a dangerous
environment. And so when I'mthinking about my three men that
I lead, I'm not perfect at this.I very much can mother hen, I'm

(52:59):
very aware of that, but I'mtrying to be mindful of taking
away, can I help you? And moreso approaching it from how can I
support you? So support isdifferent because it's like,
you're more than capable of likekilling that bear.
Can I support you by cooking it?Or, so you're basically asking

(53:23):
like what additional thingswould support you in making your
job easier? So that's a reallyimportant distinction because
remember, if activity and driveand competition come from the
testosterone, we're alwaysreally trying to emphasize to a

(53:44):
man like you can do this. Now,this is obviously assuming like
right seat, right bus, thingslike that. I'm specifically
talking about, I have thisreally great team member who is
in a position that they have theskill sets for.
Why would they not besuccessful? Like we still have
times where they're notsuccessful. This is addressing

(54:06):
that piece to it.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
Yeah. So good. The only thing that comes to mind
for me as a man leading men, Iguess it's not the only thing,
but it's the thing that I'll hiton is it was actually I I could
point back to a story. I'llnever forget it. It was at my
first job after college.
It was a guy that helped me getthat job. He also worked at the
place that I was working and hewas a mentor and friend of mine.

(54:29):
It was like ninety days into thejob and I sat down with him for
coffee to ask like, how do youthink things are going? And he
asked me, how do you thinkthings are going? And I said, I
think they're going good.
And people, all these peoplehave told me they're going
really good. Right? I thought Iwas about to get a bunch of
compliments is essentially whatI thought. And he literally
looked at me and he said, Alex,I didn't bring you here to do a

(54:50):
good job. And I know you arecapable of so much more.
You've got a higher gear in you.And I get that other people
might be impressed. As for me,I'm severely disappointed
because I see you leaving a lotof time, energy, and effort on
the table and I know you'recapable of more. And I think
certain people would take thatas an assault. And

Speaker 2 (55:14):
find that awesome. That's such a great story.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Yeah, yes. Praise God for Dan Underhill and for this
conversation, right? Cause itwas transformational for me. I
can't imagine a context in whichhe could say that to a woman and
that would go well. I just I Ican't think of it.
It just doesn't seem like theright tone, the right approach,
and even just the dynamic of aman telling a woman that just

(55:37):
doesn't seem right.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
And in the reverse, I mean, I can imagine times where
women have said things like thatto men, but it doesn't reap the
same result. It like suppressesthe man. Where in your
situation, it's like, I'mcalling you up to be a greater
man Because a woman a womancan't teach a man how to be a
man. So only a man can talk toanother man that way.

Speaker 1 (55:59):
Man, that's that yes. I that's so good. And and
because that's how I I mean, I Icould literally point back to
that day and I would say I havebeen better since that day. And
that was over a decade ago.Right?
Like, just felt called up. Andand I looked at him and I said,
he's absolutely right. But thenthe other part of that story
that I didn't share is like, hesaid, Alex, I love you. I care

(56:22):
about you, and I'm severelyunimpressed. And so I think it's
probably the leadership part ofthat is affirm and challenge.
Yes. I think men lackaffirmation from men a lot right
now, and you become a reallyimpactful male leader of other
men when you go out of your wayto overtly, and I would even say

(56:46):
emotionally, affirm the men thatyou work with, but then like
build the relationship that cansustain a level of deep
convicting challenge andconfrontation because I mean,
that just made a massive impacton me.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
100%. Yeah. That kind of comment makes no sense out of
the context of relationshipbecause he didn't abandon you
after saying that. Like I'm surethat you guys continue

Speaker 1 (57:10):
That also wasn't our first conversation, right? I
don't think I would haveresponded as well if that was
the case.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
Right. Okay. So then to the question about leading
women in the So women are thechief energy officers of the
home. It is just an undisputedthing. And so you have to
realize that with women, herfirst fruits are going to go to

(57:38):
the home.
And you can fight it or you canin some ways like nurture it and
accept it. And what's reallycrazy is when you do that, she's
so charged up assuming thatthings are healthy in the home.
Like we're kind of assuming alot here and that's kind of
where it's like, Oh, if we everdid a two part to this topic,

(57:59):
like let's spend some timetalking about the family
feedback loop. But assuming thatthat's all well and good, then
the woman gets energized fromthe family unit. And that's
where she can come back with heroverflow into the workplace and
really provide great value.
And the second you try to gether to choose, like really

(58:23):
choose between the two, she'salways going to choose the
family. Even if she doesn'tdirectly like quit, that's when
you're going to have issues. Butif you can really like fluidly
allow that, then you're goingget all of the best of women.
The intuition, the creativity,the fluidity, the relational
rapport, all of that will comeback to the workplace.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
I actually think there's one thing you said in
that that I think I disagreewith, but I'm super willing to
end on an argument if we needto. I think you said if you
force her to choose, she willalways go to the family. And I
think it's devastating, but Ithink I can think of examples
where a woman was forced tochoose and she didn't choose the

(59:06):
family and it was againsteveryone's best interest. It was
obviously against that woman'sbest interest and it was even
against the employer's bestinterest because she will spend
all of her time bitter andresentful that she's being
forced to choose against herfamily.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
Literally no argument for me. Great call out. I agree.
Wholeheartedly agree. I wonderif what it's like she chooses
the family and that in the sensethat like, that's what I wish I
was and therefore falls into thevictimhood mentality.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
If you ever experience a woman who's like
showing up victim mentality,that nine times out of 10 means
there's something going on withthe family and the kids.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Interesting. I could ask a lot more follow-up
questions. The thing that Iwould encourage people to think
about, and this is, I mean, thisis, I would say this as a male
business owner, this is thetension that I wrestle with is
we're not going to a spot wherewe're saying we're no longer

(01:00:10):
employing women because of thedemands of the home. Right? And
thank God we're not going tothat spot.
Right? Thank God that there'speople like Olivia, women like
Olivia, women like Danielle whowas on our team for an extended
period of time, women likeMichelle on our team. Right?
That they feel called that theyare going to manage both arenas,

(01:00:32):
home and work. I am so gratefulfor that and I would not go the
other direction at all, right?
However, if we're going tooperate in that modern type of
work home environment wherewomen are team members and
employees or even businessowners then I think it would be
wise for us to empathize, learn,and also work to be flexible.

(01:00:56):
And I think that's the one thatI would park on is I hear a lot
of conversations nowadays aroundEuropean maternity plans. And
the conversation oftentimes by aman is always like, that's just
so impractical. Our entireeconomy would shut down. Why?
Like, we could never do that.It's impossible. To which, you

(01:01:19):
know, maybe it is impracticalgiven the current circumstances,
but dude, I I would challengeand affirm you. I would say,
dude, you're a freaking businessowner. You don't say the word
impossible.
Rather, it would be better foryou to say, how could we
organize a situation where thiscould occur? Right? It might be,

(01:01:40):
man, we can't do nine months ofmaternity leave. We can't make
it happen. I would let peopleinto that, say our organization
would come to a grinding halt ifwe tried to do that right now
and our government does notsupport our business the way
Sweden's government does.
I'm I'm throwing Sweden outthere. Have no idea if that's
the case. Right? But instead ofjust saying that and stopping

(01:02:02):
there, what you could say is,but we acknowledge the unique
demands placed on women wheneverthey have a child and we value
the home and family so much thatwe've spent some time looking at
it and here's what we can do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Mhmm.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
And then like actually go above and beyond to
try and create a plan that thatis life giving to the woman and
in the best interest of thebusiness. There's not a reason
why you can't figure out a winwin scenario is is what I feel.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Okay. Well yeah. I got a little bit more ranty on
this podcast. I thought this wasgonna be your ranty podcast,
Olivia. I didn't think this wasgonna be mine.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
But This topic elicits strong responses, and I
love it. I think there's a lotof things that lay dormant and
unaddressed that when we startbringing them up, people are
like, I actually really I feel alot of things about that. And
I've been there.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
So if people want to follow-up or provide feedback,
you can do that in the reviewsor just send us an email,
teampathforgrowth dot com. We'llkeep that in mind, especially if
we record more episodes ofpodcasts in this vein and in
this theme. One of the thingsthat I was really excited about,
Olivia, is we're now going tohave this as a resource for our
community so that in ourcoaching calls and community

(01:03:22):
coaching calls, we can start touse this as a base level of
content that we can referenceand point to as something that
we've all understood, whether weagree with it or disagree with
it. As we already mentioned,resources that Olivia has
learned from are going to be inthe show notes of this episode.
We're also going to put kind ofthe PDF of Olivia's lessons

(01:03:43):
learned that inform this podcastepisode in the show notes.
And then the full talkassociated with this topic is
something that Olivia is goingto be giving at our experience
in October titled Long GameLeadership.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Thank you so much for making time to cover this topic.
I really enjoyed this.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Thank you. Appreciate you. Well, you have it. Thanks
so much for joining

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
us for this episode. If you want any of the
information or resources that wementioned, that's all in the
show notes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Hey, before you go, could I ask you for one quick
favor? Could you subscribe,rate, and review this podcast
episode?

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Your feedback is what helps our team engage in a
sequence of never endingimprovement. We wanna amplify
what's valuable to you andobviously reduce or even remove
the things that aren't. Also,you leaving a positive review is
what helps us connect with,build trust with, and serve
other leaders around thecountry. So thanks in advance
for helping us out on thatfront. Are you a leader that

(01:04:43):
wants to grow your business in ahealthy way, serve people
exceptionally well, and glorifyGod in the process.
Go to pathforgrowth.com to getmore information about our
community of impact drivenleaders and schedule a call

Speaker 1 (01:04:56):
with our team. Hey, thank

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
you so much to the Path for Growth team, Kyle
Cummings and the crew at PodCircle, and the remarkable
leaders that are activelyengaged in the Path for Growth
community. Y'all are the peoplethat make this podcast possible.
Y'all know this. We're rootingfor you. We're praying for you.
We wanna see you win. Remember,my strength is not for me. Your
strength is not for you. Ourstrength is for service.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Let's go. Let's go. Let's go.