Join us as we continue our “Chat” with Gary Burke as he shares his impressive legacy in ski patrol and search and rescue operations across the Pacific Northwest, recounting dramatic rescues and the evolution of mountain safety over decades. His stories highlight the dedication required to protect visitors to the slopes and the extraordinary efforts made when emergencies arise. This riveting conversation with both Gary and Shirley takes us back to the early days of avalanche control, search and rescue operations, and the evolution of ski patrol in the Pacific Northwest.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Patroller Chats.
As we continue our conversationwith Gary Burke and Shirley
Cummings, Gary is just about totell us a little bit more about
some of those achievements he'sattained over the years.
Do you recall your SnoqualmiePass Avalanche?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Which one?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
There's probably, unfortunately, there's probably
more than one oh there is.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You've received a Yellow Merit Star.
What year was that?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
1980.
One, uh, you've received ayellow merit star.
What year was that?
1980?
That you got the yellow meritstar?
I don't know for sure what yearit occurred.
Sometimes those are delayed acouple years we had so many of
them.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Uh, there I don't know if this is a one down on
the east side of Snowshed, sandyMarch, lane Price.
We went down there and therewere three or four cars that got
buried in the avalanche and Ithink that might have been that
one.
We had to dig them out.
It was so ironic, these peoplethey were in their cars and I'll
(01:01):
never forget Sandy March Ibelieve it was Sandy Was taking
a probe pole and he he wasprobing and he hit something and
we knew it was a car and all ofa sudden Sandy said the probe
pole's moving and he let go ofit and the probe pole's going up
and down.
He had poked through thewindshield of the car.
People down there were soexcited they didn't want to let
(01:24):
go of it, so they were movingthe pole up and down to let them
know that.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah we're down there wow, how many feet, would you
think that was about?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
well, the pro poles were were what?
Well, depending on which ones,we had 12, 15 feet long to be,
you know, probably 10 feet down,uh, 8, 10 feet, something like
that.
But the highway department camedown with a snowblower and
started blowing the snow,grinding it up and kicking it
out, and then we had to dig fromthe backside in to get to the
(01:58):
car to get them out, and it'sjust one of those things.
We had a lot of avalanches upthere that happened.
Some of them caught people,some of them didn't.
It was just fortunate.
We had a lot of issues onSnoqualmie Pass, as Shirley
knows.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Wow, that is because I noticed that in your
information there's a lot listedhere as far as with your work
with search and rescue, besidesski patrolling.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, I got involved with search and rescue quite a
bit and I was the delegate tothe King County Search and
Rescue Association, which is theKing County Police.
At that time King CountySheriff's Department had a
(02:53):
rescue organization I thinkthere was 14 groups and SPART
was one of them and I was thedelegate.
Sandy March also was a delegate,I think Blaine Price was a
delegate to that and I got soinvolved with it.
I got elected chairman of myorganization, which was a whole
(03:14):
other issue, and that ended upputting me in with the King
County Council to get money,because we had many rescues
within King County that theywere out on, which required Red
Cross to come out and feed us,oh my.
So they had a food truck and allsorts of things like that.
(03:37):
So we had to get donations bythe sheriff's department to
provide these, because that foodhad to be bought by King County
police, King County Sheriff, toput into the trucks to beat the
various groups that came out,and sometimes you're talking,
you know it could be 25 to 125people at some of these rescues
we had.
So I got involved in that andthen I got involved with the
(04:02):
Washington State Search andRescue Council Because I was
chairman of the King CountyAssociation, I ended up on the
board of the Washington StateSearch and Rescue Council,
(04:24):
Washington State Civil Defense,which was in charge of all
search and rescue in the stateof Washington under the 38.52
law, which requires that all thesheriff's departments are
responsible in their variousjurisdictions, and I just kept
getting deeper and deeperinvolved in this thing.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Why did National I mean for a long time SPART was a
ski patrol organization why didNational not allow that anymore
?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
The first part of the question I'm sorry to say again
.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
I mean for a while that ski patrol was a, it was,
it was SPART was a part of theSki Patrol and then National, I
think, said you couldn't use anyof the the SPART missions or
the SPART stuff because it wasseparate from Ski Patrol it was
(05:25):
separate from ski patrol.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Well, I think that was a.
I remember we were involved inan interpretation of liability
at that point and I think theywere worried about exposure et
cetera, etc.
The thing that corrected thatwas our state law, because the
Ski Patrol comes under thejurisdiction of Search and
(05:51):
Rescue and Sheriff's Departmentin Kinnitas and King at
Snoqualmie Pass.
We then became part of helpingKing County Search and Rescue,
spart being part of that, thatput us in under the state law of
38.52, which was the law thatactually governed all search and
(06:12):
rescue in the state ofWashington, and then Kittitas
County, because that's rightnext to Snoqualmie Pass, king
County.
That was a potpourri, becauseHayek's in Kittitas County,
skiacres is in Kittitas County,snoqualmie and Alpental's in
King County, and so runningright down the middle of these
(06:33):
four areas is the line.
So here becomes an issue andanother problem.
Well, we finally decided we hadto get together and create what
they call the Greater SnoqualmiePass Search and Rescue, which
(06:54):
was a jurisdiction betweenKittitas County and King County.
Both departments had to sign off, giving the authority to Ken
White of the US Forest Service,who was a federal employee, and
so he became responsible forboth sides of the pass,
including Kittitas and King onbehalf of the sheriffs, and they
(07:14):
really appreciated that,because they didn't have the
manpower.
At two o'clock on Sundaymorning, saturday morning or
whatever it was, we got somebodyburied at Hayek or Alpental.
You got to send a deputy.
We got no deputy to send upthere.
What are you going to do?
Somebody's got to take over.
And that's what kind of led tothe start of the Ski Patrol
(07:35):
rescue team, which then becamethe short name was SPART, and
that thing kind of grew into itsown self and then National
finally realized you know, hey,this is a group of people within
the ski patrol that arestepping out of the ski patrol
to go do this thing calledsearch and rescue, under the
jurisdiction of the county,which is under the jurisdiction
(07:58):
of the state of Washington lawthat took care of that.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, I am amazed, gary, at your.
You just roll these numbers,these law or regulations right
off your tongue.
I mean I'm impressed youhaven't been involved with that
for how many years Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Just a few.
I guess I retired in 1990, butI've been somewhat involved with
it and, you know, still beendoing it off and on.
But once it gets in your bloodit's kind of like, you know you,
you just can't get it out.
You wake up in the middle ofthe night and you think about
something and you know we hadthe biggest rescue in the state
of Washington that ever happenedwas the Philip Hawes missing
(08:49):
skier at Alpintol.
Tell us about that.
Well, philip Hawes went skiingat Alpintol and he decided he
wanted to go out of area offinto the wilderness, and he got
up in an area that was reallyvery steep and he went off a
cliff and disappeared.
(09:11):
And when it happened the SkiPatrol and Alcantara obviously
immediately went out of area tofind it, couldn't realize that
they were in big trouble.
So then they started callingthe other areas.
That activated SPART becauseSPART was, you know, kind of
within the area.
(09:31):
So all those guys went firstand that happened, I believe, on
a Saturday afternoon, and hedisappeared.
We never found him.
So that thing went on, I don'tremember how long, but we had to
activate the Explorer searchand rescue.
We activated Mountain Rescuesearch and rescue.
(09:53):
We had to activate the militaryfrom Fort Lewis to send a CH-46
helicopter up, and GeorgeSainsbury from MRC and I.
We flew in that helicopter,scanning the ridges and the
forest up there on a Sundaylooking for any signs, tracks,
(10:17):
debris, anything that would tellus Couldn't find him.
The search was called off.
We didn't find him for sometime later.
When his body finally gotexposed, it was avalanche.
Well, after he went off thecliff, it created an avalanche
over the top of him.
(10:37):
Oh, he was buried period.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
And he had a broken femur.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, and then on top of that he had some injuries
and it was at that time thelargest King County search and
rescue effort in terms ofmanpower, cost of manpower and
the groups that were pulledtogether to search.
It was something else.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
About what year was that Ballpark?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I got to look this up .
Speaker 1 (11:15):
You said, this happened where Alpintol,
alpintol, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Alpintol.
This was.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Paws was the gentleman's name.
Yeah, alpenteau this was.
Hawes was the gentleman's name.
Yeah, like the dog paw, philipHawes.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Hawes like H-A-A-S.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Oh, very good, Murphy .
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I don't remember what year that was, that's okay, but
uh, yeah, that was oneverybody's lips for a long time
.
Because you know, you justdon't disappear like that.
You can't find him and we had amultitude of people, ski Patrol
, looked for him for hours anddays.
(12:04):
It went on for a long time andskiers were sent up there when
the weather was nice to go tryto see if they could find any
sign of him.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
They didn't do it for a long time and you say he just
fell off a cliff landed, brokehis femur.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Other stuff avalanche .
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Where was that?
Was that out in yourinternational or Nash?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
The other side, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
The other side, wasn't it?
Yeah, I think when you're inthe area and the slope was on
the left, it was clear up onbeyond International.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Over on the other side in an area where he
shouldn't have been.
He should not have been upthere.
I've skied up in that area, butnot that far out.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Not that far out of whack, right?
Yeah, well, that's where yousee those avalanches coming.
I mean anything, what's themagic number like a 30 grade on
that slope is, uh, where youhave a really high percentage
chance of getting a naturalavalanche to break free.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
That's well, yeah, I mean ken white used to have to
shoot that up there.
Uh, you know, every singlemorning that the public was
skiing, he shot the wholemountain and uh, some of that
stuff in the back country waseven steeper than even want to
think about going up there.
I mean, I'm surprised that theguy went up there when he did.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
That makes me want to ask a question Did they ever
use a recoilless rifle to shootavalanches up there, or did they
always just, you know, make upthe bombs and chuck them off the
top?
Well, I think it was a what isit?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Alpintal side?
I think it was a 55.
What is it?
A 55mm howitzer they used,which Alpintal had mounted on a
concrete elevated system there.
He shot the hill up there allthe time.
I can tell you a funny story.
Ken unfortunately has passed onso I can tell a funny story
(14:13):
about shooting.
I'll never forget one weekendbecause we used to carry a
Forest Service radio and he andI would talk all the time and I
get this radio call and he sayscould you report to the summit
at the Forest Service?
He said I've got to tell youabout a slight problem.
(14:33):
So I got in my car and I wentup there.
I said what happened.
He says well, I went to shootthe main gun at Alpintol which
shoots up to the ridge.
And if you're familiar with theridge of Alpintol, on the other
side of the ridge is I-90.
Right the highway Yep On theother side of the ridge is I-90.
(14:55):
Right the highway, yep.
Well, unbeknownst to Kim, thesnow and the pack had slightly
shifted the concrete facilitywhere the 55 was on the top.
And he didn't know it, becausethis thing gets set before the
winter to make absolutely surethat it's sighted in that when
you shoot it it goes there.
(15:17):
And he shot that morning and itnormally hits the ridge up
there and if there's somethingthat's been built up it'll low.
And he said it didn't hit theridge, it went over the top of
the ridge, uh-oh, and he waspanicked.
And so what happened was thisthing went over the ridge and it
(15:40):
came down and it landed rightnext to I-90.
And there was a fella coming upI-90 with his kids and this
shell lands and explodes next toI-90.
The guy was so shook up he cameup to the Forest Service
building and he came in.
He wanted to report that therewas an explosion down on the
(16:01):
side up there and he describedthis thing.
And Ken said the guy wasphysically shaking because he
was an ex-Vietnam Marine thathad Marine over there and he
says this was just like theyused to have when they were
blowing stuff up at us.
Ken said it came so close tohitting this car that could have
(16:26):
been driving up the road andthis guy totally says well, we
have a little problem.
This shell went over the top ofthe mountain that came down
there and you know is everythingokay, he and his kids.
But the ironic part of it wasthat the doggone thing had
shifted the sighting of this 55howitzer.
(16:48):
And I couldn't believe it.
I mean this, you hear somethinglike that, it's like really.
And that tower, that thing hadto be like 10 feet up in the air
, built with these blocks andhad all this stuff around it,
and it still shifted just enoughto throw that siding off to go
up and over the top of thatmountain.
(17:08):
Oh, my goodness that's a pausefor the cause.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Yeah, so do they still use a howitzer to do
avalanche mitigation up there?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I'm sorry, say again.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Do they still use a howitzer to do avalanche
mitigation?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I can't answer that.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
No, surely Are they still shooting.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
They shoot.
I don't know what they're used.
You think that would be?
Speaker 4 (17:31):
the National Guard that would do that.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Those guns are left there and then in the summertime
they take them down.
But they had to shoot Alpentalbecause there were areas you
couldn't get to by ski, to throwthe dynamite, the package of
dynamites, in there.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
My goodness, holy Toledo.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Incoming of dynamites in there right.
My goodness holy toledo.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Oh yeah, incoming.
Oh my goodness, that could be areal something else.
When we used to talk about thatfor many years in the beginning
, it wasn't, it wasn't funny.
But no as years wore off.
We'd laugh about it and say youknow, remember that car coming
up the highway when all of asudden you hear the shh 55 going
(18:19):
off next to I-90 down there.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Was it true that national or certain divisions
wanted to not have avalanche asone of the programs because they
didn't think it applied to themajority of patrols in the US?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, well, I think that was one of the
philosophical problems that cameup, because that would then
indicate that maybe your areamight not be so safe.
But these areas that come inunder the US Forest Service
jurisdiction, they have nochoice.
If the Forest Service saysyou're going to have a snow
(19:03):
ranger and you're going tocontrol Ken White every single
day, that any area opened onSnoqualmie Pass and ran a
chairlift, he would go safetycheck that chairlift every
single day and in some cases hewould even ride it to the top
(19:24):
and then ski down.
And he did that for all theyears that he was up there and
sometimes I would even go up andmeet him so we would talk about
how the weekend was going to goand stuff like that.
He was very safety consciousand when they brought him in as
a snow ranger out of oregon, um,it was really a.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
We had a really excellent snow rangers just get
assigned randomly to differentareas, or is that something—and
I'm assuming they're federal,not state?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
right, oh yeah, this is federal.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
US Forest Service snow rangers, and they're, I
thought, and correct me if I'mwrong I thought the parks
department was the one who ransnow rangers and all that
happiness out in the no no, no,if it was federal, the snow
ranger had jurisdiction yeah,but the federal parks department
(20:24):
there are some areas that arein state forest and in those
particular areas they wouldn'tcome under the state forest
service guide okay, butif it's on federal land where
that forest service hasjurisdiction, then the snow
ranger is a federal officer okay, and so here's the other
(20:45):
question I have is how does itget determined where you know
you've got a bureau ofManagement, you've got Forest
Service and then you've gotparks, right, are any ski areas
adjoining or you know, on likemultiple jurisdiction land, or
(21:08):
does the federal government havelike bureau of land management,
or most of them are forestservice land, so you know you
get your ski area and it goes onforest service land.
You are under the jurisdictionof the federal government, right
in that area.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
yeah, yeah, the fence take precedence and I do think
we do have some areas that areon federal land and maybe even
private land or state land, butfederal takes jurisdiction and
so they may not have a snowranger there, but wherever the
nearest forester's district is,that would come under their
(21:47):
district.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And then they would, if wanted to, they would assign
a snow ranger.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yeah, because at Crystal, one of our boundaries
on the backside is with the parkservice, and so we get a park
service person to come in on aregular basis and talk to us
about the interrelationshipbetween our area and the parks
department.
(22:14):
And we get a lecture on thewhite bark pine tree, which I
was laughing one time going whatthe heck is this dead tree?
Well, apparently it's not adead tree, it's a tree that is
endangered and they are reallytrying to protect this thing.
And so she gave a came and gaveus a big rundown on what we can
do, how we let or how the parksdepartment actually lets people
(22:38):
ski around the backside of theKing so that they can get over
and do some skiing over there.
It was, yeah, interesting.
And they said this is a finebalance where really we could
shut you off.
But we're not going to.
You know, if you have peoplethat actually mind their P's and
Q's is, they're on that stateland, not chucking garbage, not
(22:59):
doing all this other stuff,which just boggles my mind in
the first place that you have tohave that conversation.
But you know that relationshipwinds up being really important
and you can shut down someskiers if you don't get, uh,
don't get buying from thosepeople.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So a little historical uh reference for you
the winter recreation under theunited states forest service,
underneath the us department ofagriculture, in the 1920s and
30s there were 60 ski areas thathad been developed and half of
those were on national forestland, and which started for the
(23:37):
Pacific Northwest with theearliest one of Cooper Spurt,
1927, along with Mount Hood SkiPatrol Not patrol ski area.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Really.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
So I put in the chat a little link for you.
That's actually from the uhpacific north.
Uh, the pacific northwest skiarea is a representation of uh
nsaa.
But um, I I mean, I've heard ofsome of this, I didn't know of
all of it, but it is interestinghow much more, like they said
(24:12):
that between 45 and 59, 1959,another hundred ski areas have
been opened across the country,30 of those on national forests.
But, and that's, and then youget into.
You mentioned crystal mountainand then in the sixties and
seventies another hundred plusski areas opened in the US.
(24:32):
So it kept growing.
And then, underneath PacificNorthwest Crystal was 1964.
So there's your quiz of the day.
All right, now you know, let'ssee.
How is it?
Paul Harvey?
Now you know the rest of thestory.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Bill Sabry would enjoy that one.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I love listening to Paul Harvey.
So what did you guys do topromote safety when you were
patrolling?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Say again safe ski.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
To promote safety, general safety?
Did you do any things to try tohelp with the general public or
with patrollers?
Did you ever have events?
How did you guys try toemphasize safety?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Well, I remember the Edmonds School District was
probably the biggest one we hadat HIAC and I used to talk to
them.
I can't remember the guy andthe gal who were the directors
of it, but they would show upwith multiple buses.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Early days.
I mean multiple buses, I mean10, 15 buses, yellow buses
loaded with kids, and I used totalk to them on the phone
because once in a while theywould call and ask what the
protocol was for people gettinghurt.
And that would lead into adiscussion about, well, how do
(26:10):
we keep people safe?
And when they come, have theygot the proper equipment and the
boots and the poles, and youknow, and come up there and try
not to get hurt, but if you gethurt we're there to help you and
this is what we're going to do.
So we used to do that with theski schools.
Other than that, I don't thinkthat we did any events that I
(26:32):
recall or we would do anyadvertising or stuff like that.
We just didn't have thewherewithal.
Once in a while, mike Wine andI would come up with an article
to put in the Seattle Times,because he was the night editor
and he would write an articleand sign my name and make it
(26:55):
look good for the ski patrol andwe'd talk.
You know about something?
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Wait a minute.
You used to write articles forthe Seattle Times about ski
patrol.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Mike Wine, who was a patroller at.
Snoqualmie, who was also my PRadvisor.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Wait a minute.
The ski patrol had a PR advisor.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
What's that?
Speaker 4 (27:17):
The ski patrol had a PR advisor.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
We sure did you still do?
Yeah, we still do.
Each patrol has one and theregion had one and Mike Wine,
like Shirley, was with me.
From the patrol level to theregion level, to the division
level.
They were all kept together.
Mike was at the Seattle Timesas the night editor and when we
(27:41):
would write articles for skiingand anything to do with safety,
he would write the article andsign my name as the division
director or region director Mademe look good.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
And that got published in the paper.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, show up in the Seattle Times.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Well, I mean, think about it, it's just been in the
last 20 years that we really hadsocial media, where you've had
this sort of more instant.
And you know it's so hard nowto find any microfilm or older
editions.
And you try to go to theInternet and unless you've
copied it or it's beendocumented on an archive website
(28:21):
, it's so hard to find historyand I mean, I miss being able to
with the papers of being able.
Well, granted, it was hard, youhad to go through the microfilm
and going and through it, butat least it's there right.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, but you got to appreciate that in the 80s, even
the 90s, we had no way ofdisseminating information, so
that you might want to do aspecial on no safety straps on
your skis or something.
But how are you going to reach,you know, a poster.
You just couldn't reach a lotof people, and so I think
(28:59):
National would give us, or we'dbuy from them, little stickers
that we could use forfundraising, and they always had
some kind of a.
You know, keep your bottom inthe chair and not in the air.
I mean, there were differentones through the years, I like
that one.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I like that.
What are some of those sayings?
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Keep your bottom in the chair.
Oh God, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Do you remember some of the other ones?
I like it.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I don't think they'll use it again.
I have a feeling.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Or we'd have to go to the ski shops where people
would leave stuff and postbulletins and talk about ski
safety.
Other than that, you know,there was really nothing that
could be done.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Wow, wow I think we had a word of mouth a lot of
times, like one of the guys whowas an investor in Hayek.
His wife was sitting on theporch of the ski shop one day
and somebody fell and theydidn't have a safety strap on
(30:09):
their ski and that ski traveledall the way down the mountain
and it ran into her leg and shebroke her leg.
Oh so you know that was a bigproduction by the time, but
everybody wanting to know whathappened.
That was one of the cases wherewe, I remember saying do you
(30:29):
have safety straps?
Yes, I mean a lot of people didnot, those Arlberg things that
wrapped around and around andaround Speaking of equipment.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I think we got to a point too where some of the
areas if somebody got on achairlift, if they didn't have a
safety strap on, they couldn'tgo up.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Because it became a health issue and that was a big
deal.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Runaway skis then started to become very serious
because, boy, you could get hurtbad.
Definitely Is that before skibreaks, Because now you have the
ski breaks which then startedto become very serious, because
boy you could get hurt.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Bad yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Definitely Is that before ski breaks, because now
you have the ski breaks, whichdon't always work that well, but
they do help.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Yeah, before.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Okay, because I know snowboards.
Last year or this past seasonat Crystal, we started keeping
track of snowboards that wouldjust roll down the mountain.
Yeah, I mean, and they were allover the place You'd have to go
.
You know, search for thissnowboard, search for that
snowboard snowboard hit somebodyon the way down and it's.
(31:34):
You know, I thought they weresupposed to be strapped and they
used to be, but apparentlythat's not really enforced like
it used to be.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Apparently that's not really enforced like it used to
be.
That's hard to say, gary, whatkind of jacket did you start off
wearing, color-wise, you meanfor Ski?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Patrol.
Yes, color-wise.
Well, color-wise, the officialcolor for the Ski Patrol is
called Rainier Red, which wasdeveloped by White Stag Harold
Hirsch down there.
And when I came along and gotinvolved in the Ski Patrol and
(32:23):
then I joined the company thatmy dad had started, then I
approached the Ski Patrol withSki Patrol patrol jackets and
that's what I started wearing.
I had my own custom made jacketmade for me that was on a down
because I used to be cold allthe time.
So I had.
I had a jacket that I think ishanging in my daughter's closet
now.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
But uh, don't you remember your whole basement of
of a sportcaster.
If you needed a new jacket, youwent to the basement of
sportcaster, where gary alwayshappened to have seconds.
Oh, do you need a jacket?
Well, we have some over here.
Well, what's wrong with it ifit's a second?
Well, there's nothing wrongwith it, we just call them
(33:03):
seconds.
And so the price to ski patrolwas like 15, $20.
Whoa.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah Well, wait a minute.
When did the rusty Parker parka?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
That is the rest parka.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
That's a rainier red.
The rainier red.
Okay, it got coined as the rustparka, but the official color
of rust is called Rainier Red,oh.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
So if I go into a Pantone color chart, they're
going to have Rainier Red.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah Well, rainier Red is not open to the public.
The dying people, dupont.
When Harold Hirsch, thepresident of White Stag,
developed a color, he went tothe DuPont people and the nylon
people nylon that makes all ourstuff and they developed this
(33:59):
color, which was rust.
The official color is rainierred and so White Stag was going
to do it and they passed it offto us and we picked up and
started making all the jacketsfor them.
So everybody had to wearRainier Red or Rust Color.
Jacket is what they called it,navy blue pants and navy blue
(34:21):
pants.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Yeah, everybody looked alike and the only thing
you could do for yourindividuality was to wear a
different hat.
And boy, we had someinteresting hats before him like
what, oh, gary had a hat withthe big ears.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Remember the big ear muffs that was my Russian
Cossack hat.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
It was warm.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Comrade.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Burke?
Oh my goodness, that ishysterical.
And did you what did you?
Where did you keep yourequipment like first aid
supplies?
In the jacket, or did you havea fanny pack backpack?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Everybody had a fanny pack of some kind.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
And they were all fanny packs.
Nobody wore a vest or abackpack or a side pack.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, several different kinds of fanny packs
then showed up on the market andthen the fanny packs had to get
a little bit bigger becausemore stuff was being put in them
and you couldn't get it all into zip it around, to get it on.
But yeah, fanny packs were thething then.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I know when I joined it was amazing to me all the
different variations of fannypacks and stuff like that and
the creativity of stashing thatin the pack.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
But you know you mentioned several things about
your rescues, whether it'ssearch and rescue and in general
, whether it's search and rescueand in general sort of more of
a I guess a movement trying tohave more awareness is being
(36:13):
told not told but trying to beexplained is about wellness and
mental health and how this canbe very hard on people and
didn't know if you had anythoughts in general on that that
you've seen or observed, or doyou feel that we lost a lot of
people?
Or back then was there acloser-knit group that people
(36:37):
sort of naturally looked at eachother, or was it more of an
attitude of just deal with itand if you can't, there's the
door?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, I think the latter.
I think in the beginning searchand rescue kind of became a
started off and became somethingsmall and then started to grow.
I think today, when you stop andyou look about various things
that you see on the internet,one of them I just saw here in
(37:08):
the last couple of days is thischoking thing.
If you'll recall, we had theHeimlich method you grab them
and you pop them out.
Today there's at least two orthree and I say that because
I've got them where you put itover your mask and you pull it
out and it pops it out.
You don't grab them around thechest anymore, and so various
(37:34):
things have been developed tohelp people continue to live.
Stop bleeding is another one.
You can bleed to death, butnowadays you can open up a pack
and throw something on the pack.
If you know how to put on apressure point, a digital point,
a tourniquet or a pressuresomething there, a digital point
, a tourniquet or a pressuresomething there to stop the
bleeding, or you take a pack ofthis stuff, break it open and
(37:56):
you pour it on there, thenyou're going to have a stop
bleed.
I think this thing has evolvedinto much more awareness and
people.
I think you'll find in your caryou'll have something to break
the glass out in case you're inwater so you can get out of your
car.
How many people I've seen somany people with first aid kits
(38:16):
now in your car, extinguishersand all this stuff.
What we started with back inthe 50s and 60s and 70s and
where we are today is night andday, and at home people have got
first aid kits and they'velearned how to do stuff, and
defibrillators.
You go down to a restaurantthey're hanging on a wall now
(38:37):
and the defibrillators talk toyou, whereas before they didn't
talk to you.
So it's become quite quite moresignificant in the world of
awareness as to how to keep ourfriends and our family and
neighbors alive from whateverthey might be doing.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Oh, definitely, definitely.
Do you feel that you might have?
I mean as far as the culture?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I mean as far as the culture, sort of a cultural part
of following up with peopleafter they've had a rough call
or being that this is notsomething that's done on an
everyday basis for them, or howthey would deal with it and
process it.
Well, when I was patroldirector I did the accidents.
I used to call up people thatwent through our first aid room
that we did reports on.
I would call them up and askfor follow-up to see how they
were doing.
That's nice and I would say 50%of the time it produced a
donation for us and they wouldcome in on another visit, excuse
(39:52):
me.
And they would say we're comingup to ski and, by the way, we
appreciate what the patrol didfor us with little Johnny
Brokey's leg and we'd like tomake a $100 donation, so they'd
donate money to us.
I think that helps.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
What about the?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
patrollers?
Do they follow up with stufflike that?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Did you guys?
We can't anymore, because Ihear them no no, what about
patrollers as far as how theyfelt being on a rescue, just
like you mentioned how hard itwas with finding the body of
that younger girl in theavalanche, sort of the mental
health.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Well, the people especially within the spark team
.
They are really super chargedto do stuff and when we were out
on the missions and then themany missions that we did, I
mean these guys are special guysand they would go out even
(40:51):
explore, search and rescue whichis the younger part of the
search and rescue like the BoyScouts, explorer Scouts, and
they would sometimes call upSPART and say we're going on an
airplane mission.
We'd like to have some of youguys come along and help us
because they knew that ifsomething happened we could take
(41:12):
care of them and we were thefirst aid side, plus we were the
adult side.
That happened many times.
Grant Smith, who was thedirector of the ESAR program out
of Tacoma we became goodfriends because of being able to
bring our forces together andwork together and we started
doing things together.
(41:33):
If we knew we were going out ona rescue, we'd call him and say
we need some of your ISAR kidsto come and help us because
there's not enough of us typething.
So I think the originalquestion was you know, have we
learned something and are thepeople today question was you
know, have we learned somethingand are the people today?
I think people today are moreaccustomed to being aware of
(41:56):
certain injuries and what to doin case something happens to
your families and to yourworkers, and to your neighbors
and to people that are aroundyou.
I really do believe thatthey've been forced to do that.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Right, I really appreciate the insight on that
from you, gary.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
Well, gary, do you have anything you want to close
with on our interview, or anystories or anything else that
you can share with us?
Any other people that you thinkwe should interview?
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well, I think you ought to get a hold of Norman
Bottenberg from Red Cross andget the historic there, because
I think there's a lot of storyto that.
I think Bill Savory fromCrystal Mountain is also a good
person to talk to.
It's too bad that Ken Whiteisn't alive from the Forest
Service, who was a snow rangeron St Solomon Pass, who also was
(42:58):
heavily involved with some ofthe patrols elsewhere when he
came from out of Oregon.
He would have been nice to talkto to get some ideas.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Who was the first name that you said?
What was it?
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Norm Bottenberg.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Norm Okay.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
And Norm just moved.
That's why he wasn't at theregion banquet, but usually he
shows up to things.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
Yeah, that's one of the things at these region
banquets.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
That people like Shirley Cummings and Blaine
Price and Sandy March and othersthat have been so helpful
during the years that I spentwithin the Ski Patrol.
Excuse me, Shirley, and I I'llnever forget yes, I have a story
.
I'll never forget.
The first time I met Shirley,and I I'll never forget.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Yes, I have a story.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I never forget the first time I met Shirley and
Gary and that was when I tookthe patrol Hayek patrol over and
I got invited to come up toShirley's house.
And I went to Gary andShirley's house and the first
thing I noticed was that Garywas a great brewer All sorts of
(44:14):
whatever it was he was brewingin the back and I was always so
impressed about that.
I thought that he makes a.
He's got to be a goodbrewmaster.
But anyway, we developed quitea relationship through the years
and Shirley did a wonderful joband still continues to do it
and she came with me from thepatrol to the region, to the
(44:36):
division and her and Gary Garywas right along with her, right
behind her, and whenever weneeded help, shirley and I says
we got to do this and this.
Oh, get Gary, he'll help us out.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
And wait a minute.
Were you Gary one or were youGary 2?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Well, when she said probably, her Gary is number 1
and I'm number 2, and we were inski patrol business, I was
number 1 and he was number 2.
That's when I figured out howshe carried us on.
Ironically, she was married toa Gary and she ended up with a
Gary too.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
But you know, I think you guys can see listening to
him talk If there was an areawhere the ski patrol needed to
make some kind of a liaison orbe friendly with the
organization.
He becomes friends with thesepeople and then all of a sudden
he's not only in ourorganization but you know, he's
leading their organization andthat happened in to the Red
(45:36):
Cross, with the SPART, with KingCounty Search and Rescue.
He was always getting a neworganization that he was in
charge of and it's just amazing,the people at the Ski Area
Operators Association I meanalmost anything that I can think
of that had to do with skiing.
He made friends with thosepeople so that any conflict that
(45:59):
might be in the future wasreally ironed out or at least it
had an avenue to talk.
You did an amazing job, gary.
Speaker 4 (46:07):
Hey, one last question that I completely
forgot to ask.
Are you in the museum that's upat?
You know the pass?
The skiers museum.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
No, and that's why there are no ski patrol in the
museum.
And I talked with Holly, who isDeb Armstrong's mother, about
putting in a corner and she saidit had to be professionally
done and that would cost about$2,500.
(46:44):
And we were talking about doingthat and then Holly died and
I've talked to Dave Moffittsince, but he's not as keen.
And yet ski instructors,everybody else is represented
except the ski patrol and allthey have is a Lyle St Louis
(47:04):
plaque and that's it.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
So they should be.
What year was that that youtalked to her about, where she
estimated about 2500 ballpark?
Speaker 3 (47:18):
maybe five years now.
I think she five years.
I think she died the the sameyear we were talking and I
didn't even know she was sick.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Well, the other thing is, maybe approach is to say
hey, why don't you start tocompare to what's at government
camp on Mount Hood?
Because there is dedicated areafor ski patrol.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
And it would be nice if somebody at Mount Hood would
write their patrol history andsomebody at at crystal and I
understand crystals a little too.
Nobody wants to put it inwriting, but you guys, I
understand, or what used to be.
You have a wonderful display,maybe even pictures.
(48:06):
It could be to come here andyet the very people that I could
bug to keep doing it arealready so busy that you feel
guilty.
Speaker 4 (48:18):
Well, we have some inroads now where we've got Bill
Savory, where we can talk tohim and then kind of go through,
you know his history.
And then who was it?
Steve Rolfe.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
He wound up being a patrol director, so hey, gary,
before you go, I wanted to askyou if you, if you, remember
when they were trying to do awaywith with the senior program.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
No no.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Because I remember that time and how politically
charged that was and I rememberJack Ernest up there, you know,
waving his fist that they weregoing to you were going to be
able to go just from a patrollerto your national appointment
automatically after 15 years.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah, that went on for some time, but I can't tell
you when that was.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
We hear that the senior program and the East
Coast is not particularly valuedto the same degree that it is
out here.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
See, that's the sort of thing that when we got into
the national board meetingswould break out and it would be
a jurisdictional type thing andbig arguments.
You know, should national drop,should they not drop it, keep
it.
That's a typical example.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
What do you think of the board being elected now?
Elected nationally, not fromtheir own division?
Speaker 2 (50:02):
I think it's okay.
I think it's now that they'reelecting, they're electing.
I like the fact when they putout the resumes and you have to,
we all have to vote on thosepeople because you can get a
chance to look up and see whatthey're doing, if they put out
their resume properly, and evencall them up and say, hey, why
(50:22):
are you doing this?
Speaker 3 (50:24):
Yeah, so who's next on?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
your Well, we've got the the list, but we've got to
backtrack now and get the peoplethat we've had.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
We've got to get these interviews fine-tuned,
whatever, so we can get thoseuploaded and then we're going to
try and start getting our backto once a week where we can sit
down and spend a couple of hoursinterviewing somebody.
So that's going to be helpful,because then we can sit down and
spend a couple of hoursinterviewing somebody.
So that's going to be helpfulbecause then we can just pick a
day and then you know, interview, get it scheduled.
(50:56):
So one a week is what our goalis.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
This is a great project.
I really do.
I think it's going to.
What's the end result going tobe?
What are you going to?
How are you going to transcribeall this stuff?
What are you going to do?
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Well, that's a good point.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Yeah, what we're trying to do is get it put up on
the web so people can actuallylisten to it, because I don't
know if you've listened topodcasts, but it's kind of in
that same vein.
And some of these things Ireally love are I'll just drive
around and listen to some peopletalking about history and it's
like, oh my goodness, I had noidea and you get little ideas of
you know who to talk to, whoyou know, like the whole Crystal
(51:36):
Mountain thing.
I learned so much about mycurrent mountain just from these
conversations in the last twodays.
So I'm going to reach out, seeif I can get ahold of some of
these people and, you know,maybe get some phone numbers.
And you know, see if we can geta hold of some of these people
and maybe get some phone numbersand see if we can get some of
these people on.
But what we're trying to do isat least get a lot of this
(51:57):
information recorded, becausepeople are getting older and
their memories aren't what theyused to be and so having this
ability of just for lack of abetter term memorializing these
conversations, it just pays hugedividends.
So and I got to say, Gary, Ireally appreciate you spending
(52:20):
this time you guys are doing agreat job.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Oh, appreciate it Great job.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
I'll let Murphy wrap this up, but stay on afterwards
because I want to show you onour website and then you can see
sort of where we're going.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
We're working on our budget and the budget winds up
coming up here in August, but weshould be able to have most of
these recordings up in August orSeptember of this year.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
Have you interviewed Andy?
Speaker 4 (52:47):
Bechtel?
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Nope, not yet We've got a bunch of people before we
get to Probably need to do agood one to put on.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
Yeah, we've got a bunch of people before we
actually get to Andy.
We just did Shelly, you knowthere's like Blaine Liz, peter
Schwartz, just kind of steppedaway from the ski patrol.
I want to talk to him before he, you know, before a lot of that
institutional knowledge youknow for things goes away
(53:15):
because he's been connected forso long.
There's a bunch of people inOregon that you know we need to
talk to.
The list is long.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Very long, but please keep as you think of them.
Let us know how to contact them.
Like, one person I wish wecould have talked to was Dave
Nelson, but unfortunately we gotstarted too late because Dave
had an amazing history and alsorelated of different events and
stuff like that.
But as far as that's concerned,but really super appreciate,
(53:46):
gary, and I'll let Murph wrapthis up, but hang on afterwards.
Speaker 4 (53:49):
But yeah, just wrapping up, I want to say
thanks very much, gary.
It was a wonderful opportunityto get a lot of history here
from the Pacific Northwest andthe Ski Patrol.
Shirley, you're always lovelyin your memory and things that
you can bring up.
Oh hey, do you remember that?
And I didn't know that you werethe right-hand man of Gary for
(54:13):
so many years, or right-handwoman, I should probably more
politically correct, say butyeah, a lot of the jigsaw pieces
are coming together now thatwe're doing this project.
So thank you too for spendingthe time with us and really
sharing a lot of history of theSki Patrol.
Welcome back to Patroller Chats.
As we continue our conversationwith Gary Burke and Shirley
Cummings, Gary is just about totell us a little bit more about
some of those achievements he'sattained over the years.
Do you recall your SnoqualmiePass Avalanche?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Which one?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
There's probably, unfortunately, there's probably
more than one oh there is.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You've received a Yellow Merit Star.
What year was that?
Speaker 1 (00:29):
1980.
One, uh, you've received ayellow merit star.
What year was that?
1980?
That you got the yellow meritstar?
I don't know for sure what yearit occurred.
Sometimes those are delayed acouple years we had so many of
them.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Uh, there I don't know if this is a one down on
the east side of Snowshed, sandyMarch, lane Price.
We went down there and therewere three or four cars that got
buried in the avalanche and Ithink that might have been that
one.
We had to dig them out.
It was so ironic, these peoplethey were in their cars and I'll
(01:01):
never forget Sandy March Ibelieve it was Sandy Was taking
a probe pole and he he wasprobing and he hit something and
we knew it was a car and all ofa sudden Sandy said the probe
pole's moving and he let go ofit and the probe pole's going up
and down.
He had poked through thewindshield of the car.
People down there were soexcited they didn't want to let
(01:24):
go of it, so they were movingthe pole up and down to let them
know that.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah we're down there wow, how many feet, would you
think that was about?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
well, the pro poles were were what?
Well, depending on which ones,we had 12, 15 feet long to be,
you know, probably 10 feet down,uh, 8, 10 feet, something like
that.
But the highway department camedown with a snowblower and
started blowing the snow,grinding it up and kicking it
out, and then we had to dig fromthe backside in to get to the
(01:58):
car to get them out, and it'sjust one of those things.
We had a lot of avalanches upthere that happened.
Some of them caught people,some of them didn't.
It was just fortunate.
We had a lot of issues onSnoqualmie Pass, as Shirley
knows.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Wow, that is because I noticed that in your
information there's a lot listedhere as far as with your work
with search and rescue, besidesski patrolling.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, I got involved with search and rescue quite a
bit and I was the delegate tothe King County Search and
Rescue Association, which is theKing County Police.
At that time King CountySheriff's Department had a
(02:53):
rescue organization I thinkthere was 14 groups and SPART
was one of them and I was thedelegate.
Sandy March also was a delegate,I think Blaine Price was a
delegate to that and I got soinvolved with it.
I got elected chairman of myorganization, which was a whole
(03:14):
other issue, and that ended upputting me in with the King
County Council to get money,because we had many rescues
within King County that theywere out on, which required Red
Cross to come out and feed us,oh my.
So they had a food truck and allsorts of things like that.
(03:37):
So we had to get donations bythe sheriff's department to
provide these, because that foodhad to be bought by King County
police, King County Sheriff, toput into the trucks to beat the
various groups that came out,and sometimes you're talking,
you know it could be 25 to 125people at some of these rescues
we had.
So I got involved in that andthen I got involved with the
(04:02):
Washington State Search andRescue Council Because I was
chairman of the King CountyAssociation, I ended up on the
board of the Washington StateSearch and Rescue Council,
(04:24):
Washington State Civil Defense,which was in charge of all
search and rescue in the stateof Washington under the 38.52
law, which requires that all thesheriff's departments are
responsible in their variousjurisdictions, and I just kept
getting deeper and deeperinvolved in this thing.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Why did National I mean for a long time SPART was a
ski patrol organization why didNational not allow that anymore
?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
The first part of the question I'm sorry to say again
.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
I mean for a while that ski patrol was a, it was,
it was SPART was a part of theSki Patrol and then National, I
think, said you couldn't use anyof the the SPART missions or
the SPART stuff because it wasseparate from Ski Patrol it was
(05:25):
separate from ski patrol.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Well, I think that was a.
I remember we were involved inan interpretation of liability
at that point and I think theywere worried about exposure et
cetera, etc.
The thing that corrected thatwas our state law, because the
Ski Patrol comes under thejurisdiction of Search and
(05:51):
Rescue and Sheriff's Departmentin Kinnitas and King at
Snoqualmie Pass.
We then became part of helpingKing County Search and Rescue,
spart being part of that, thatput us in under the state law of
38.52, which was the law thatactually governed all search and
(06:12):
rescue in the state ofWashington, and then Kittitas
County, because that's rightnext to Snoqualmie Pass, king
County.
That was a potpourri, becauseHayek's in Kittitas County,
skiacres is in Kittitas County,snoqualmie and Alpental's in
King County, and so runningright down the middle of these
(06:33):
four areas is the line.
So here becomes an issue andanother problem.
Well, we finally decided we hadto get together and create what
they call the Greater SnoqualmiePass Search and Rescue, which
(06:54):
was a jurisdiction betweenKittitas County and King County.
Both departments had to sign off, giving the authority to Ken
White of the US Forest Service,who was a federal employee, and
so he became responsible forboth sides of the pass,
including Kittitas and King onbehalf of the sheriffs, and they
(07:14):
really appreciated that,because they didn't have the
manpower.
At two o'clock on Sundaymorning, saturday morning or
whatever it was, we got somebodyburied at Hayek or Alpental.
You got to send a deputy.
We got no deputy to send upthere.
What are you going to do?
Somebody's got to take over.
And that's what kind of led tothe start of the Ski Patrol
(07:35):
rescue team, which then becamethe short name was SPART, and
that thing kind of grew into itsown self and then National
finally realized you know, hey,this is a group of people within
the ski patrol that arestepping out of the ski patrol
to go do this thing calledsearch and rescue, under the
jurisdiction of the county,which is under the jurisdiction
(07:58):
of the state of Washington lawthat took care of that.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, I am amazed, gary, at your.
You just roll these numbers,these law or regulations right
off your tongue.
I mean I'm impressed youhaven't been involved with that
for how many years Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Just a few.
I guess I retired in 1990, butI've been somewhat involved with
it and, you know, still beendoing it off and on.
But once it gets in your bloodit's kind of like, you know you,
you just can't get it out.
You wake up in the middle ofthe night and you think about
something and you know we hadthe biggest rescue in the state
of Washington that ever happenedwas the Philip Hawes missing
(08:49):
skier at Alpintol.
Tell us about that.
Well, philip Hawes went skiingat Alpintol and he decided he
wanted to go out of area offinto the wilderness, and he got
up in an area that was reallyvery steep and he went off a
cliff and disappeared.
(09:11):
And when it happened the SkiPatrol and Alcantara obviously
immediately went out of area tofind it, couldn't realize that
they were in big trouble.
So then they started callingthe other areas.
That activated SPART becauseSPART was, you know, kind of
within the area.
(09:31):
So all those guys went firstand that happened, I believe, on
a Saturday afternoon, and hedisappeared.
We never found him.
So that thing went on, I don'tremember how long, but we had to
activate the Explorer searchand rescue.
We activated Mountain Rescuesearch and rescue.
(09:53):
We had to activate the militaryfrom Fort Lewis to send a CH-46
helicopter up, and GeorgeSainsbury from MRC and I.
We flew in that helicopter,scanning the ridges and the
forest up there on a Sundaylooking for any signs, tracks,
(10:17):
debris, anything that would tellus Couldn't find him.
The search was called off.
We didn't find him for sometime later.
When his body finally gotexposed, it was avalanche.
Well, after he went off thecliff, it created an avalanche
over the top of him.
(10:37):
Oh, he was buried period.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
And he had a broken femur.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah, and then on top of that he had some injuries
and it was at that time thelargest King County search and
rescue effort in terms ofmanpower, cost of manpower and
the groups that were pulledtogether to search.
It was something else.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
About what year was that Ballpark?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I got to look this up .
Speaker 1 (11:15):
You said, this happened where Alpintol,
alpintol, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Alpintol.
This was.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Paws was the gentleman's name.
Yeah, alpenteau this was.
Hawes was the gentleman's name.
Yeah, like the dog paw, philipHawes.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
Hawes like H-A-A-S.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Oh, very good, Murphy .
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I don't remember what year that was, that's okay, but
uh, yeah, that was oneverybody's lips for a long time
.
Because you know, you justdon't disappear like that.
You can't find him and we had amultitude of people, ski Patrol
, looked for him for hours anddays.
(12:04):
It went on for a long time andskiers were sent up there when
the weather was nice to go tryto see if they could find any
sign of him.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
They didn't do it for a long time and you say he just
fell off a cliff landed, brokehis femur.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Other stuff avalanche .
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Where was that?
Was that out in yourinternational or Nash?
Speaker 3 (12:27):
The other side, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
The other side, wasn't it?
Yeah, I think when you're inthe area and the slope was on
the left, it was clear up onbeyond International.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Over on the other side in an area where he
shouldn't have been.
He should not have been upthere.
I've skied up in that area, butnot that far out.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Not that far out of whack, right?
Yeah, well, that's where yousee those avalanches coming.
I mean anything, what's themagic number like a 30 grade on
that slope is, uh, where youhave a really high percentage
chance of getting a naturalavalanche to break free.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
That's well, yeah, I mean ken white used to have to
shoot that up there.
Uh, you know, every singlemorning that the public was
skiing, he shot the wholemountain and uh, some of that
stuff in the back country waseven steeper than even want to
think about going up there.
I mean, I'm surprised that theguy went up there when he did.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
That makes me want to ask a question Did they ever
use a recoilless rifle to shootavalanches up there, or did they
always just, you know, make upthe bombs and chuck them off the
top?
Well, I think it was a what isit?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Alpintal side?
I think it was a 55.
What is it?
A 55mm howitzer they used,which Alpintal had mounted on a
concrete elevated system there.
He shot the hill up there allthe time.
I can tell you a funny story.
Ken unfortunately has passed onso I can tell a funny story
(14:13):
about shooting.
I'll never forget one weekendbecause we used to carry a
Forest Service radio and he andI would talk all the time and I
get this radio call and he sayscould you report to the summit
at the Forest Service?
He said I've got to tell youabout a slight problem.
(14:33):
So I got in my car and I wentup there.
I said what happened.
He says well, I went to shootthe main gun at Alpintol which
shoots up to the ridge.
And if you're familiar with theridge of Alpintol, on the other
side of the ridge is I-90.
Right the highway Yep On theother side of the ridge is I-90.
(14:55):
Right the highway, yep.
Well, unbeknownst to Kim, thesnow and the pack had slightly
shifted the concrete facilitywhere the 55 was on the top.
And he didn't know it, becausethis thing gets set before the
winter to make absolutely surethat it's sighted in that when
you shoot it it goes there.
(15:17):
And he shot that morning and itnormally hits the ridge up
there and if there's somethingthat's been built up it'll low.
And he said it didn't hit theridge, it went over the top of
the ridge, uh-oh, and he waspanicked.
And so what happened was thisthing went over the ridge and it
(15:40):
came down and it landed rightnext to I-90.
And there was a fella coming upI-90 with his kids and this
shell lands and explodes next toI-90.
The guy was so shook up he cameup to the Forest Service
building and he came in.
He wanted to report that therewas an explosion down on the
(16:01):
side up there and he describedthis thing.
And Ken said the guy wasphysically shaking because he
was an ex-Vietnam Marine thathad Marine over there and he
says this was just like theyused to have when they were
blowing stuff up at us.
Ken said it came so close tohitting this car that could have
(16:26):
been driving up the road andthis guy totally says well, we
have a little problem.
This shell went over the top ofthe mountain that came down
there and you know is everythingokay, he and his kids.
But the ironic part of it wasthat the doggone thing had
shifted the sighting of this 55howitzer.
(16:48):
And I couldn't believe it.
I mean this, you hear somethinglike that, it's like really.
And that tower, that thing hadto be like 10 feet up in the air
, built with these blocks andhad all this stuff around it,
and it still shifted just enoughto throw that siding off to go
up and over the top of thatmountain.
(17:08):
Oh, my goodness that's a pausefor the cause.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Yeah, so do they still use a howitzer to do
avalanche mitigation up there?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I'm sorry, say again.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
Do they still use a howitzer to do avalanche
mitigation?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I can't answer that.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
No, surely Are they still shooting.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
They shoot.
I don't know what they're used.
You think that would be?
Speaker 4 (17:31):
the National Guard that would do that.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Those guns are left there and then in the summertime
they take them down.
But they had to shoot Alpentalbecause there were areas you
couldn't get to by ski, to throwthe dynamite, the package of
dynamites, in there.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
My goodness, holy Toledo.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Incoming of dynamites in there right.
My goodness holy toledo.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Oh yeah, incoming.
Oh my goodness, that could be areal something else.
When we used to talk about thatfor many years in the beginning
, it wasn't, it wasn't funny.
But no as years wore off.
We'd laugh about it and say youknow, remember that car coming
up the highway when all of asudden you hear the shh 55 going
(18:19):
off next to I-90 down there.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Was it true that national or certain divisions
wanted to not have avalanche asone of the programs because they
didn't think it applied to themajority of patrols in the US?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, well, I think that was one of the
philosophical problems that cameup, because that would then
indicate that maybe your areamight not be so safe.
But these areas that come inunder the US Forest Service
jurisdiction, they have nochoice.
If the Forest Service saysyou're going to have a snow
(19:03):
ranger and you're going tocontrol Ken White every single
day, that any area opened onSnoqualmie Pass and ran a
chairlift, he would go safetycheck that chairlift every
single day and in some cases hewould even ride it to the top
(19:24):
and then ski down.
And he did that for all theyears that he was up there and
sometimes I would even go up andmeet him so we would talk about
how the weekend was going to goand stuff like that.
He was very safety consciousand when they brought him in as
a snow ranger out of oregon, um,it was really a.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
We had a really excellent snow rangers just get
assigned randomly to differentareas, or is that something—and
I'm assuming they're federal,not state?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
right, oh yeah, this is federal.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
US Forest Service snow rangers, and they're, I
thought, and correct me if I'mwrong I thought the parks
department was the one who ransnow rangers and all that
happiness out in the no no, no,if it was federal, the snow
ranger had jurisdiction yeah,but the federal parks department
(20:24):
there are some areas that arein state forest and in those
particular areas they wouldn'tcome under the state forest
service guide okay, butif it's on federal land where
that forest service hasjurisdiction, then the snow
ranger is a federal officer okay, and so here's the other
(20:45):
question I have is how does itget determined where you know
you've got a bureau ofManagement, you've got Forest
Service and then you've gotparks, right, are any ski areas
adjoining or you know, on likemultiple jurisdiction land, or
(21:08):
does the federal government havelike bureau of land management,
or most of them are forestservice land, so you know you
get your ski area and it goes onforest service land.
You are under the jurisdictionof the federal government, right
in that area.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
yeah, yeah, the fence take precedence and I do think
we do have some areas that areon federal land and maybe even
private land or state land, butfederal takes jurisdiction and
so they may not have a snowranger there, but wherever the
nearest forester's district is,that would come under their
(21:47):
district.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And then they would, if wanted to, they would assign
a snow ranger.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Yeah, because at Crystal, one of our boundaries
on the backside is with the parkservice, and so we get a park
service person to come in on aregular basis and talk to us
about the interrelationshipbetween our area and the parks
department.
(22:14):
And we get a lecture on thewhite bark pine tree, which I
was laughing one time going whatthe heck is this dead tree?
Well, apparently it's not adead tree, it's a tree that is
endangered and they are reallytrying to protect this thing.
And so she gave a came and gaveus a big rundown on what we can
do, how we let or how the parksdepartment actually lets people
(22:38):
ski around the backside of theKing so that they can get over
and do some skiing over there.
It was, yeah, interesting.
And they said this is a finebalance where really we could
shut you off.
But we're not going to.
You know, if you have peoplethat actually mind their P's and
Q's is, they're on that stateland, not chucking garbage, not
(22:59):
doing all this other stuff,which just boggles my mind in
the first place that you have tohave that conversation.
But you know that relationshipwinds up being really important
and you can shut down someskiers if you don't get, uh,
don't get buying from thosepeople.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
So a little historical uh reference for you
the winter recreation under theunited states forest service,
underneath the us department ofagriculture, in the 1920s and
30s there were 60 ski areas thathad been developed and half of
those were on national forestland, and which started for the
(23:37):
Pacific Northwest with theearliest one of Cooper Spurt,
1927, along with Mount Hood SkiPatrol Not patrol ski area.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Really.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
So I put in the chat a little link for you.
That's actually from the uhpacific north.
Uh, the pacific northwest skiarea is a representation of uh
nsaa.
But um, I I mean, I've heard ofsome of this, I didn't know of
all of it, but it is interestinghow much more, like they said
(24:12):
that between 45 and 59, 1959,another hundred ski areas have
been opened across the country,30 of those on national forests.
But, and that's, and then youget into.
You mentioned crystal mountainand then in the sixties and
seventies another hundred plusski areas opened in the US.
(24:32):
So it kept growing.
And then, underneath PacificNorthwest Crystal was 1964.
So there's your quiz of the day.
All right, now you know, let'ssee.
How is it?
Paul Harvey?
Now you know the rest of thestory.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Bill Sabry would enjoy that one.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
I love listening to Paul Harvey.
So what did you guys do topromote safety when you were
patrolling?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Say again safe ski.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
To promote safety, general safety?
Did you do any things to try tohelp with the general public or
with patrollers?
Did you ever have events?
How did you guys try toemphasize safety?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Well, I remember the Edmonds School District was
probably the biggest one we hadat HIAC and I used to talk to
them.
I can't remember the guy andthe gal who were the directors
of it, but they would show upwith multiple buses.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Early days.
I mean multiple buses, I mean10, 15 buses, yellow buses
loaded with kids, and I used totalk to them on the phone
because once in a while theywould call and ask what the
protocol was for people gettinghurt.
And that would lead into adiscussion about, well, how do
(26:10):
we keep people safe?
And when they come, have theygot the proper equipment and the
boots and the poles, and youknow, and come up there and try
not to get hurt, but if you gethurt we're there to help you and
this is what we're going to do.
So we used to do that with theski schools.
Other than that, I don't thinkthat we did any events that I
(26:32):
recall or we would do anyadvertising or stuff like that.
We just didn't have thewherewithal.
Once in a while, mike Wine andI would come up with an article
to put in the Seattle Times,because he was the night editor
and he would write an articleand sign my name and make it
(26:55):
look good for the ski patrol andwe'd talk.
You know about something?
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Wait a minute.
You used to write articles forthe Seattle Times about ski
patrol.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Mike Wine, who was a patroller at.
Snoqualmie, who was also my PRadvisor.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Wait a minute.
The ski patrol had a PR advisor.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
What's that?
Speaker 4 (27:17):
The ski patrol had a PR advisor.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
We sure did you still do?
Yeah, we still do.
Each patrol has one and theregion had one and Mike Wine,
like Shirley, was with me.
From the patrol level to theregion level, to the division
level.
They were all kept together.
Mike was at the Seattle Timesas the night editor and when we
(27:41):
would write articles for skiingand anything to do with safety,
he would write the article andsign my name as the division
director or region director Mademe look good.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
And that got published in the paper.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, show up in the Seattle Times.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Well, I mean, think about it, it's just been in the
last 20 years that we really hadsocial media, where you've had
this sort of more instant.
And you know it's so hard nowto find any microfilm or older
editions.
And you try to go to theInternet and unless you've
copied it or it's beendocumented on an archive website
(28:21):
, it's so hard to find historyand I mean, I miss being able to
with the papers of being able.
Well, granted, it was hard, youhad to go through the microfilm
and going and through it, butat least it's there right.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Yeah, but you got to appreciate that in the 80s, even
the 90s, we had no way ofdisseminating information, so
that you might want to do aspecial on no safety straps on
your skis or something.
But how are you going to reach,you know, a poster.
You just couldn't reach a lotof people, and so I think
(28:59):
National would give us, or we'dbuy from them, little stickers
that we could use forfundraising, and they always had
some kind of a.
You know, keep your bottom inthe chair and not in the air.
I mean, there were differentones through the years, I like
that one.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I like that.
What are some of those sayings?
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Keep your bottom in the chair.
Oh God, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Do you remember some of the other ones?
I like it.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I don't think they'll use it again.
I have a feeling.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Or we'd have to go to the ski shops where people
would leave stuff and postbulletins and talk about ski
safety.
Other than that, you know,there was really nothing that
could be done.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Wow, wow I think we had a word of mouth a lot of
times, like one of the guys whowas an investor in Hayek.
His wife was sitting on theporch of the ski shop one day
and somebody fell and theydidn't have a safety strap on
(30:09):
their ski and that ski traveledall the way down the mountain
and it ran into her leg and shebroke her leg.
Oh so you know that was a bigproduction by the time, but
everybody wanting to know whathappened.
That was one of the cases wherewe, I remember saying do you
(30:29):
have safety straps?
Yes, I mean a lot of people didnot, those Arlberg things that
wrapped around and around andaround Speaking of equipment.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I think we got to a point too where some of the
areas if somebody got on achairlift, if they didn't have a
safety strap on, they couldn'tgo up.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Because it became a health issue and that was a big
deal.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Runaway skis then started to become very serious
because, boy, you could get hurtbad.
Definitely Is that before skibreaks, Because now you have the
ski breaks which then startedto become very serious, because
boy you could get hurt.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Bad yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Definitely Is that before ski breaks, because now
you have the ski breaks, whichdon't always work that well, but
they do help.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Yeah, before.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Okay, because I know snowboards.
Last year or this past seasonat Crystal, we started keeping
track of snowboards that wouldjust roll down the mountain.
Yeah, I mean, and they were allover the place You'd have to go
.
You know, search for thissnowboard, search for that
snowboard snowboard hit somebodyon the way down and it's.
(31:34):
You know, I thought they weresupposed to be strapped and they
used to be, but apparentlythat's not really enforced like
it used to be.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Apparently that's not really enforced like it used to
be.
That's hard to say, gary, whatkind of jacket did you start off
wearing, color-wise, you meanfor Ski?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Patrol.
Yes, color-wise.
Well, color-wise, the officialcolor for the Ski Patrol is
called Rainier Red, which wasdeveloped by White Stag Harold
Hirsch down there.
And when I came along and gotinvolved in the Ski Patrol and
(32:23):
then I joined the company thatmy dad had started, then I
approached the Ski Patrol withSki Patrol patrol jackets and
that's what I started wearing.
I had my own custom made jacketmade for me that was on a down
because I used to be cold allthe time.
So I had.
I had a jacket that I think ishanging in my daughter's closet
now.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
But uh, don't you remember your whole basement of
of a sportcaster.
If you needed a new jacket, youwent to the basement of
sportcaster, where gary alwayshappened to have seconds.
Oh, do you need a jacket?
Well, we have some over here.
Well, what's wrong with it ifit's a second?
Well, there's nothing wrongwith it, we just call them
(33:03):
seconds.
And so the price to ski patrolwas like 15, $20.
Whoa.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah Well, wait a minute.
When did the rusty Parker parka?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
That is the rest parka.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
That's a rainier red.
The rainier red.
Okay, it got coined as the rustparka, but the official color
of rust is called Rainier Red,oh.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
So if I go into a Pantone color chart, they're
going to have Rainier Red.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah Well, rainier Red is not open to the public.
The dying people, dupont.
When Harold Hirsch, thepresident of White Stag,
developed a color, he went tothe DuPont people and the nylon
people nylon that makes all ourstuff and they developed this
(33:59):
color, which was rust.
The official color is rainierred and so White Stag was going
to do it and they passed it offto us and we picked up and
started making all the jacketsfor them.
So everybody had to wearRainier Red or Rust Color.
Jacket is what they called it,navy blue pants and navy blue
(34:21):
pants.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Yeah, everybody looked alike and the only thing
you could do for yourindividuality was to wear a
different hat.
And boy, we had someinteresting hats before him like
what, oh, gary had a hat withthe big ears.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Remember the big ear muffs that was my Russian
Cossack hat.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
It was warm.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Comrade.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Burke?
Oh my goodness, that ishysterical.
And did you what did you?
Where did you keep yourequipment like first aid
supplies?
In the jacket, or did you havea fanny pack backpack?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Everybody had a fanny pack of some kind.
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
And they were all fanny packs.
Nobody wore a vest or abackpack or a side pack.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, several different kinds of fanny packs
then showed up on the market andthen the fanny packs had to get
a little bit bigger becausemore stuff was being put in them
and you couldn't get it all into zip it around, to get it on.
But yeah, fanny packs were thething then.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I know when I joined it was amazing to me all the
different variations of fannypacks and stuff like that and
the creativity of stashing thatin the pack.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
But you know you mentioned several things about
your rescues, whether it'ssearch and rescue and in general
, whether it's search and rescueand in general sort of more of
a I guess a movement trying tohave more awareness is being
(36:13):
told not told but trying to beexplained is about wellness and
mental health and how this canbe very hard on people and
didn't know if you had anythoughts in general on that that
you've seen or observed, or doyou feel that we lost a lot of
people?
Or back then was there acloser-knit group that people
(36:37):
sort of naturally looked at eachother, or was it more of an
attitude of just deal with itand if you can't, there's the
door?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Yeah, I think the latter.
I think in the beginning searchand rescue kind of became a
started off and became somethingsmall and then started to grow.
I think today, when you stop andyou look about various things
that you see on the internet,one of them I just saw here in
(37:08):
the last couple of days is thischoking thing.
If you'll recall, we had theHeimlich method you grab them
and you pop them out.
Today there's at least two orthree and I say that because
I've got them where you put itover your mask and you pull it
out and it pops it out.
You don't grab them around thechest anymore, and so various
(37:34):
things have been developed tohelp people continue to live.
Stop bleeding is another one.
You can bleed to death, butnowadays you can open up a pack
and throw something on the pack.
If you know how to put on apressure point, a digital point,
a tourniquet or a pressuresomething there, a digital point
, a tourniquet or a pressuresomething there to stop the
bleeding, or you take a pack ofthis stuff, break it open and
(37:56):
you pour it on there, thenyou're going to have a stop
bleed.
I think this thing has evolvedinto much more awareness and
people.
I think you'll find in your caryou'll have something to break
the glass out in case you're inwater so you can get out of your
car.
How many people I've seen somany people with first aid kits
(38:16):
now in your car, extinguishersand all this stuff.
What we started with back inthe 50s and 60s and 70s and
where we are today is night andday, and at home people have got
first aid kits and they'velearned how to do stuff, and
defibrillators.
You go down to a restaurantthey're hanging on a wall now
(38:37):
and the defibrillators talk toyou, whereas before they didn't
talk to you.
So it's become quite quite moresignificant in the world of
awareness as to how to keep ourfriends and our family and
neighbors alive from whateverthey might be doing.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Oh, definitely, definitely.
Do you feel that you might have?
I mean as far as the culture?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I mean as far as the culture, sort of a cultural part
of following up with peopleafter they've had a rough call
or being that this is notsomething that's done on an
everyday basis for them, or howthey would deal with it and
process it.
Well, when I was patroldirector I did the accidents.
I used to call up people thatwent through our first aid room
that we did reports on.
I would call them up and askfor follow-up to see how they
were doing.
That's nice and I would say 50%of the time it produced a
donation for us and they wouldcome in on another visit, excuse
(39:52):
me.
And they would say we're comingup to ski and, by the way, we
appreciate what the patrol didfor us with little Johnny
Brokey's leg and we'd like tomake a $100 donation, so they'd
donate money to us.
I think that helps.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
What about the?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
patrollers?
Do they follow up with stufflike that?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Did you guys?
We can't anymore, because Ihear them no no, what about
patrollers as far as how theyfelt being on a rescue, just
like you mentioned how hard itwas with finding the body of
that younger girl in theavalanche, sort of the mental
health.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Well, the people especially within the spark team
.
They are really super chargedto do stuff and when we were out
on the missions and then themany missions that we did, I
mean these guys are special guysand they would go out even
(40:51):
explore, search and rescue whichis the younger part of the
search and rescue like the BoyScouts, explorer Scouts, and
they would sometimes call upSPART and say we're going on an
airplane mission.
We'd like to have some of youguys come along and help us
because they knew that ifsomething happened we could take
(41:12):
care of them and we were thefirst aid side, plus we were the
adult side.
That happened many times.
Grant Smith, who was thedirector of the ESAR program out
of Tacoma we became goodfriends because of being able to
bring our forces together andwork together and we started
doing things together.
(41:33):
If we knew we were going out ona rescue, we'd call him and say
we need some of your ISAR kidsto come and help us because
there's not enough of us typething.
So I think the originalquestion was you know, have we
learned something and are thepeople today question was you
know, have we learned somethingand are the people today?
I think people today are moreaccustomed to being aware of
(41:56):
certain injuries and what to doin case something happens to
your families and to yourworkers, and to your neighbors
and to people that are aroundyou.
I really do believe thatthey've been forced to do that.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Right, I really appreciate the insight on that
from you, gary.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
Well, gary, do you have anything you want to close
with on our interview, or anystories or anything else that
you can share with us?
Any other people that you thinkwe should interview?
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well, I think you ought to get a hold of Norman
Bottenberg from Red Cross andget the historic there, because
I think there's a lot of storyto that.
I think Bill Savory fromCrystal Mountain is also a good
person to talk to.
It's too bad that Ken Whiteisn't alive from the Forest
Service, who was a snow rangeron St Solomon Pass, who also was
(42:58):
heavily involved with some ofthe patrols elsewhere when he
came from out of Oregon.
He would have been nice to talkto to get some ideas.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Who was the first name that you said?
What was it?
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Norm Bottenberg.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Norm Okay.
Speaker 3 (43:16):
And Norm just moved.
That's why he wasn't at theregion banquet, but usually he
shows up to things.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
Yeah, that's one of the things at these region
banquets.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
That people like Shirley Cummings and Blaine
Price and Sandy March and othersthat have been so helpful
during the years that I spentwithin the Ski Patrol.
Excuse me, Shirley, and I I'llnever forget yes, I have a story
.
I'll never forget.
The first time I met Shirley,and I I'll never forget.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Yes, I have a story.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I never forget the first time I met Shirley and
Gary and that was when I tookthe patrol Hayek patrol over and
I got invited to come up toShirley's house.
And I went to Gary andShirley's house and the first
thing I noticed was that Garywas a great brewer All sorts of
(44:14):
whatever it was he was brewingin the back and I was always so
impressed about that.
I thought that he makes a.
He's got to be a goodbrewmaster.
But anyway, we developed quitea relationship through the years
and Shirley did a wonderful joband still continues to do it
and she came with me from thepatrol to the region, to the
(44:36):
division and her and Gary Garywas right along with her, right
behind her, and whenever weneeded help, shirley and I says
we got to do this and this.
Oh, get Gary, he'll help us out.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
And wait a minute.
Were you Gary one or were youGary 2?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Well, when she said probably, her Gary is number 1
and I'm number 2, and we were inski patrol business, I was
number 1 and he was number 2.
That's when I figured out howshe carried us on.
Ironically, she was married toa Gary and she ended up with a
Gary too.
Speaker 3 (45:14):
But you know, I think you guys can see listening to
him talk If there was an areawhere the ski patrol needed to
make some kind of a liaison orbe friendly with the
organization.
He becomes friends with thesepeople and then all of a sudden
he's not only in ourorganization but you know, he's
leading their organization andthat happened in to the Red
(45:36):
Cross, with the SPART, with KingCounty Search and Rescue.
He was always getting a neworganization that he was in
charge of and it's just amazing,the people at the Ski Area
Operators Association I meanalmost anything that I can think
of that had to do with skiing.
He made friends with thosepeople so that any conflict that
(45:59):
might be in the future wasreally ironed out or at least it
had an avenue to talk.
You did an amazing job, gary.
Speaker 4 (46:07):
Hey, one last question that I completely
forgot to ask.
Are you in the museum that's upat?
You know the pass?
The skiers museum.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
No, and that's why there are no ski patrol in the
museum.
And I talked with Holly, who isDeb Armstrong's mother, about
putting in a corner and she saidit had to be professionally
done and that would cost about$2,500.
(46:44):
And we were talking about doingthat and then Holly died and
I've talked to Dave Moffittsince, but he's not as keen.
And yet ski instructors,everybody else is represented
except the ski patrol and allthey have is a Lyle St Louis
(47:04):
plaque and that's it.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
So they should be.
What year was that that youtalked to her about, where she
estimated about 2500 ballpark?
Speaker 3 (47:18):
maybe five years now.
I think she five years.
I think she died the the sameyear we were talking and I
didn't even know she was sick.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Well, the other thing is, maybe approach is to say
hey, why don't you start tocompare to what's at government
camp on Mount Hood?
Because there is dedicated areafor ski patrol.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
And it would be nice if somebody at Mount Hood would
write their patrol history andsomebody at at crystal and I
understand crystals a little too.
Nobody wants to put it inwriting, but you guys, I
understand, or what used to be.
You have a wonderful display,maybe even pictures.
(48:06):
It could be to come here andyet the very people that I could
bug to keep doing it arealready so busy that you feel
guilty.
Speaker 4 (48:18):
Well, we have some inroads now where we've got Bill
Savory, where we can talk tohim and then kind of go through,
you know his history.
And then who was it?
Steve Rolfe.
Speaker 3 (48:34):
He wound up being a patrol director, so hey, gary,
before you go, I wanted to askyou if you, if you, remember
when they were trying to do awaywith with the senior program.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
No no.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Because I remember that time and how politically
charged that was and I rememberJack Ernest up there, you know,
waving his fist that they weregoing to you were going to be
able to go just from a patrollerto your national appointment
automatically after 15 years.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah, that went on for some time, but I can't tell
you when that was.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
We hear that the senior program and the East
Coast is not particularly valuedto the same degree that it is
out here.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
See, that's the sort of thing that when we got into
the national board meetingswould break out and it would be
a jurisdictional type thing andbig arguments.
You know, should national drop,should they not drop it, keep
it.
That's a typical example.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
What do you think of the board being elected now?
Elected nationally, not fromtheir own division?
Speaker 2 (50:02):
I think it's okay.
I think it's now that they'reelecting, they're electing.
I like the fact when they putout the resumes and you have to,
we all have to vote on thosepeople because you can get a
chance to look up and see whatthey're doing, if they put out
their resume properly, and evencall them up and say, hey, why
(50:22):
are you doing this?
Speaker 3 (50:24):
Yeah, so who's next on?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
your Well, we've got the the list, but we've got to
backtrack now and get the peoplethat we've had.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
We've got to get these interviews fine-tuned,
whatever, so we can get thoseuploaded and then we're going to
try and start getting our backto once a week where we can sit
down and spend a couple of hoursinterviewing somebody.
So that's going to be helpful,because then we can sit down and
spend a couple of hoursinterviewing somebody.
So that's going to be helpfulbecause then we can just pick a
day and then you know, interview, get it scheduled.
(50:56):
So one a week is what our goalis.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
This is a great project.
I really do.
I think it's going to.
What's the end result going tobe?
What are you going to?
How are you going to transcribeall this stuff?
What are you going to do?
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Well, that's a good point.
Speaker 4 (51:12):
Yeah, what we're trying to do is get it put up on
the web so people can actuallylisten to it, because I don't
know if you've listened topodcasts, but it's kind of in
that same vein.
And some of these things Ireally love are I'll just drive
around and listen to some peopletalking about history and it's
like, oh my goodness, I had noidea and you get little ideas of
you know who to talk to, whoyou know, like the whole Crystal
(51:36):
Mountain thing.
I learned so much about mycurrent mountain just from these
conversations in the last twodays.
So I'm going to reach out, seeif I can get ahold of some of
these people and, you know,maybe get some phone numbers.
And you know, see if we can geta hold of some of these people
and maybe get some phone numbersand see if we can get some of
these people on.
But what we're trying to do isat least get a lot of this
(51:57):
information recorded, becausepeople are getting older and
their memories aren't what theyused to be and so having this
ability of just for lack of abetter term memorializing these
conversations, it just pays hugedividends.
So and I got to say, Gary, Ireally appreciate you spending
(52:20):
this time you guys are doing agreat job.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
Oh, appreciate it Great job.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
I'll let Murphy wrap this up, but stay on afterwards
because I want to show you onour website and then you can see
sort of where we're going.
Speaker 4 (52:32):
We're working on our budget and the budget winds up
coming up here in August, but weshould be able to have most of
these recordings up in August orSeptember of this year.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
Have you interviewed Andy?
Speaker 4 (52:47):
Bechtel?
Speaker 3 (52:49):
Nope, not yet We've got a bunch of people before we
get to Probably need to do agood one to put on.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
Yeah, we've got a bunch of people before we
actually get to Andy.
We just did Shelly, you knowthere's like Blaine Liz, peter
Schwartz, just kind of steppedaway from the ski patrol.
I want to talk to him before he, you know, before a lot of that
institutional knowledge youknow for things goes away
(53:15):
because he's been connected forso long.
There's a bunch of people inOregon that you know we need to
talk to.
The list is long.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Very long, but please keep as you think of them.
Let us know how to contact them.
Like, one person I wish wecould have talked to was Dave
Nelson, but unfortunately we gotstarted too late because Dave
had an amazing history and alsorelated of different events and
stuff like that.
But as far as that's concerned,but really super appreciate,
(53:46):
gary, and I'll let Murph wrapthis up, but hang on afterwards.
Speaker 4 (53:49):
But yeah, just wrapping up, I want to say
thanks very much, gary.
It was a wonderful opportunityto get a lot of history here
from the Pacific Northwest andthe Ski Patrol.
Shirley, you're always lovelyin your memory and things that
you can bring up.
Oh hey, do you remember that?
And I didn't know that you werethe right-hand man of Gary for
(54:13):
so many years, or right-handwoman, I should probably more
politically correct, say butyeah, a lot of the jigsaw pieces
are coming together now thatwe're doing this project.
So thank you too for spendingthe time with us and really
sharing a lot of history of theSki Patrol.
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