September 10, 2025 • 30 mins
Imagine someone taking the precise, methodical safety systems from commercial aviation and applying them to the dynamic, often unpredictable world of mountain rescue. That's exactly what Carl Peacher has accomplished at Crystal Mountain Ski Patrol, creating a fascinating bridge between two seemingly different environments that share critical safety requirements.
The PNWD History Project: Shirley Cummings, the official history project coordinator, (& all around fabulous lady), has been on a mission: Collect and assemble an archive of stories and pictures from the different ski patrols within the Pacific Northwest Division. Hence, Patroller Chats was born!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Murphy (00:00):
Today's guest is Carl Peacher from the Crystal
Mountain Ski Patrol.
Carl's currently on the SkiPatrol and, ironically, carl's
on patrol with me.
So we're bringing in Carl as aspecial guest because Carl does
a lot for safety and patrolwellness and he's done a bunch
of great videos with the CrystalMountain Ski Patrol.
(00:21):
So my partner in crime, Jodie,talked to her and we were saying
you know, this would be a greatguest to bring on and have
conversations with, because, aswe all know, Jodie is very deep
into the safety and wellnessprogram here at the Pacific
Northwest Division.
So, Carl, start out byintroducing yourself.
Tell us you know who you are,what you do, tell us your
(00:43):
patroller number and give aquick introduction.
Carl Peecher (00:47):
Oh goodness, patroller number.
I don't have that one memorized.
I probably should, but I canstart right there.
I've already failed one step.
I'm Carl Peacher.
I joined patrol in the COVIDyears, so it was kind of a
unique time.
So this is.
I just finished my fifth seasonin patrol and this will be
coming into my sixth.
I was in the United StatesMarine Corps when I started my
life.
After high school and collegeWent off, moved to the Navy
(01:11):
Reserve when I got off activeduty and then came back to the
Northwest in 2005 and startedskiing with vigor at that point
and that's when I really startedskiing.
So I'm an older learner and Ifly for Alaska Airlines and fly
some little planes on my own andjust have a great time with
that.
Like I said, I've beenpatrolling now for my sixth
season.
Jodie (01:32):
I like how he says I just fly with Alaska.
Yeah, I fly for Alaska, Justfly.
Carl Peecher (01:38):
Yeah, I'm a tech airman for Alaska, so actually
this topic that we're going tocover and what I've been
bringing patrol, as we'll getinto it is very dear and near to
me because I take vetted pilotsand teach them how to work
together more effectively, andsafety and crew coordination and
communication is critical toall that and we'll talk it
(01:58):
through.
But that's where the foundationof what I do and what I'm
bringing here for it and it'svery similar to what I did
within the core.
Wow, is that my number?
Jodie (02:08):
you just know yes it is, that is your number to memorize.
There you go.
So we're going to ask you doyou have a national number?
Murphy (02:17):
Oh, sorry, I was talking over you.
Do you have a national number,carl?
Carl Peecher (02:20):
I believe so no, I guess not.
Murphy (02:23):
That's okay we ask just because you know a national
number is a special number thatthey pass out for Don't worry, I
don't have one either that theypass out to folks that have
contributed a lot of time,energy, to the patrol over many
years.
A couple people, let's see onour patrol.
(02:43):
Evan has a national number andit's a okay a number in addition
to your normal ski patrolnumber, right?
So I've got my number and thenyou've got a national number
that they give you and there'sonly 10.
Where are they up to Jodie?
10 to 11,000.
So there's 250,000 that havebeen patrollers since 1938.
(03:09):
But there's 10,000 people thathave a national number, so a few
.
So anyway.
Carl Peecher (03:18):
So that's a very interesting topic.
It'll probably come into thisas well.
But for me personally, mymotivation to do everything that
I do is not about awards,honors, numbers or anything else
.
It is just being part ofsomething bigger.
So often those sorts of thingsin my little brain just kind of
drift off to the side.
Is that just rather be part ofthe system?
So I often personally kind ofput that to the back and that's
(03:40):
probably why I don't have thosethings memorized.
Jodie (03:50):
You're fine and that's like Murphy and I have talked
many a times.
We're not here for therecognition, and it's nice when
something happens by far and youfeel honored, but it's that's
not why we're here.
Carl Peecher (03:56):
Correct yes, ma'am .
Murphy (03:58):
So let's go into a little background and what
motivated you to join the SkiPatrol.
So, first of all, what drew youto join the Ski Patrol?
So first of all, what drew youto join the Ski Patrol?
You know you were out flyingplanes in the wild blue yonder
watching the movie Catch Me Ifyou Can, and then go.
Okay, I'm going to join the SkiPatrol.
What precipitated that?
Carl Peecher (04:18):
Well, it goes back in time as a young man, when I
was leaving high school, I waslooking for a next big challenge
.
I was a runner in high school,a long distance man.
When I was leaving high school,I was looking for a next big
challenge.
I was a runner in high school,a long-distance runner, and I
was looking for something tochallenge me, and that drew me
to the Marine Corps.
And when I got to the Corps, Ifound this group of people that
were very mission-oriented,teamwork-oriented, worked
together and it felt like youwere part of something fantastic
(04:40):
.
You were getting somewhere anddoing more.
When I went off and I went tothe Navy Reserve, I found a
little different environment andit was very true, I was drawn
to that first.
So what drew me to patrol is,as I found myself on the hill, I
kept looking at the patrollersand admiring what they were
doing.
I would see them setting up thehill, getting things ready.
I would see them on scenetaking care of someone in need,
(05:04):
and that was something that drewme to it and I just was excited
to be part of that and my dutyto give back and be something,
part of bigger, part of thesolution, and so that's kind of
what did it, and it also givesme a pretty good opportunity to
learn.
I've learned much more aboutskiing and outdoor survival and
skills in snow conditions than Iknew, didn't know, I didn't
(05:27):
know how about that?
Murphy (05:28):
Yeah, that does happen.
So how has your perspectivechanged on skiing in the ski
community since you joined thepatrol?
I mean, you looked at it from,you know, the brochure side,
let's call it and now you'vebeen in the patrol for five
years.
What's changed?
Carl Peecher (05:43):
Well, with knowledge comes perspective, and
with perspective you can seethings that you didn't see
before.
And you know, from my point ofview I see threats now that I
didn't see before, I didn't evenknow they existed.
And also, you know personallyand morally now I feel more
confident when I'm out hiking orin the wilderness or anything
else with another partner that Icould actually help them if
(06:06):
there was a problem.
So that's kind of that's theperspective changed is.
You know, I have moreperspective, I have a bigger
picture of what is what'savailable.
Murphy (06:18):
Okay, that's good, I like that.
So you know being a pilot andyou know being a former Marine
Corps and Navy pilot.
Now you're in patrol.
How do you balance all of that?
You know work, because being apilot is not an easy job.
You're gone, you're away fromhome, you come back and then you
got to go to the mountain andthen come back.
So I mean your wife is probablya winter widow at some point.
Carl Peecher (06:42):
Well, she's a big skier as well.
So we come up to CrystalMountain and basically, and
we're snowbirds, we are truesnowbirds, though we leave Squim
, where it's sunny all summer,and then we go to the mountains
when it starts snowing.
So we live in our forestservice cabin up there over the
winter and just ski all winterlong.
And so, you know, a pilot iseclectic, to say the best.
(07:04):
My work, I don't know holidays,I don't know weekends, I don't
know anything else.
I just I work when the systemneeds me.
So I often have a Tuesday,wednesday, thursday, friday off,
or I'll have a Thursday throughMonday off, and so what it
works out is effectively oneweekend a month.
That we're patrolling is asmall hit compared to the time
(07:25):
that we still get up on themountain and ski.
So, yes, it is a little bit ofa winter widow in the sense of
on that weekend I'm busy and offand that's somewhat frustrating
, but for me it is a greatoutlet and a place to go.
Murphy (07:38):
So how come I've never met your wife at the mountain?
Does she ski at Crystal?
Carl Peecher (07:42):
She does.
Yeah, she's up there andusually wearing teal from top to
bottom.
Murphy (07:47):
I think I have introduced you at some point,
but you were probably teaching aclass or something like that.
Carl Peecher (07:51):
That's painful, It'd be like me.
I get introduced to so manypeople and I look and I'm like I
know you, but I'm struggling.
I just don't remember
Jodie (08:03):
You're going to have to make up for that next
introduction.
I know right, I'm going to haveto be really vigorous.
Murphy (08:09):
I was leaving the swimming pool the other day and
this woman was walking out withme and I said I know you Do, you
do triathlons whatever.
No, no, no.
And she finally goes hey, I'm alifeguard here and I went.
Oh, that's where I know youfrom.
Carl Peecher (08:24):
It's like yeah, I can recognize the face, but I
just couldn't put the name there, and you know our listeners
can't see this, but if you looknormally, what we see of a skier
is this you see your eyes andyour nose and that's it, and
that's behind a goggle.
So you take all that off andyou're in person.
It's like who are?
Jodie (08:39):
you.
Carl Peecher (08:41):
Yeah, I ran into Charlie just a couple of days
ago up at the hill, one of thepros running the mountain, and
he looked at me like hey, howare you?
Thankfully he had his namepatch on because I had to put it
all together Like yes, you'reCharlie.
Oh, that's funny, yeah, so whatsimilarities do you see between
(09:05):
you know, in the teamwork aspect, between aviation and the
mountain?
Oh, immense.
So that and that is reallywhere I'm kind of focusing my
thoughts In teamwork in aviationis critical.
We take a 65 year old and a 23year old and put them in a small
little plane and tell them togo do one of the most complex
tasks possible, and at anymoment during that task
something can go wrong and theycould be in a crisis.
So in patrol it's very similarwe don't know who's going to be
(09:27):
on scene, and so that teamworkand the way things put together,
you just have to.
Everybody has to be prepared atany given moment to work
together.
So, as far as I think yourquestion was around checklists,
yeah, Well, we're going to gothere.
Murphy (09:40):
Yeah, this is kind of my follow-up question is so you're
bringing some of theseprocesses that we've had and I
just have to tell everybody thatI wound up being the benefit of
going to a 737 simulator withCarl and my daughter, and he
taught us how to fly a 737.
Of course, my daughter didbetter than I did.
Of course, but the procedures of?
(10:05):
And Carl asked me this Do youwant to fire up the airplane?
I go, yeah, let's go from startto actual flying.
And so he had my daughter flipon a million buttons and
actually go through the wholepre-flight deal.
And so you know, as you bringthat into patrol, I guess what
(10:26):
was the idea that got youthinking hey, you know, I'm
taking this thing and I do itall the time.
The Ski Patrol has been aroundsince 1938, yet we don't have
certain checklists where I thinkthey should have checklists.
Carl Peecher (10:43):
I mean, how did that happen and come to fruition
Well.
So this has been a lifetimegoal.
So you know, when I joined theMarine Corps in 92, and I went
into the aviation community ofthe Marine Corps, they were
still in a pretty violenttransition from the 70s.
In the 70s a concept of CRM,crew resource management was
developed.
So crew resource management andangled carrier decks came in at
(11:05):
that same time and in thatconcept the idea was this
leveling the playing field.
Everybody in the solution,everybody in the game, is part
of the solution and we don'thave a single person who is the
one runner of it all, who is thegod of the system.
So the idea is that theyoungest, most inexperienced
person can see a threat, pointout a threat and stop the
(11:28):
operation as necessary to makeit work.
Well, I saw that transitiongoing and the airlines are
actually catching up with it inthe late 90s.
That's when they really startedand it's still being developed
now.
This whole concept was observedby a risk management PhD
candidate some years back andwhen he looked at it he started
(11:49):
to look at the whole system andsay, well, how do we mitigate
problems?
How do I make things better?
And when he looked at it hewent well, let's go to the
airline world, because they dothis complex task with these
multi-hundred thousand orhundred thousand pound plus
aircraft and then they go dosomething out there and they do
it safely, routinely.
What do they do differently?
And he went and studied theairlines and found this all out
(12:11):
and in the process he realizedthat this could go into other
industries.
In particular, it went intomedicine and there's a book
called the Checklist Manifestoand that book was a concept and
it was.
If you go back and you remember,there were lawsuits about
doctors making mistakes insurgery, doing the surgery on
the wrong side of the body orleaving devices in bodies,
(12:34):
things like that when they weredoing the surgery.
And part of that was it came toas simple as introducing
yourself when you get into thesurgery room and introducing hi,
I'm Dr Carl, I'm going to bedoing this.
Hi, I'm nurse Susie.
I'm going to do this.
I'm Steve.
I'm the anesthesiologist.
Do that introduction process.
Jodie (12:52):
And a timeout.
I work as an ER nurse, so, yes,when you do procedures, it's
timeout, and they've advanced itto when EMS brings in a patient
.
We were supposed to give acritical timeout, so everyone
listens.
Carl Peecher (13:07):
Yes, and that's the key.
Jodie (13:09):
Still has to grow, but yes, Right.
Carl Peecher (13:14):
And that timeout exactly, Jodie, is where you get
the concept where the mostexperienced and knowledgeable
person in the room probably thedoctor still doesn't have the
skills, proficiency and currencyto do many of the tasks that
are required, and may not havethe proficiency and knowledge to
know why that subordinate taskyou know, subordinate in a grand
(13:35):
scheme is so critical to thesuccess of what he's going to do
or she's going to do.
So that's where that timeoutcomes in is being able to make
sure that things go right andhow they are manifesting out.
I think I might've answeredyour question, but I'm not sure
if I strayed off a little bitthere.
Jodie (13:51):
Oh no, I'm going to interject real quick on this,
because we talked two years ago,Carl, when we were talking
about things in safety and stuffand I shared and this is
because that exactly spot on, Iwant to say it was late 90s I
was a flight nurse out inMontana and that's when the crew
resource, uh sort of concept,came in and I hadn't seen it
(14:14):
working in the hospitals as muchuntil probably, I want to say
in the last 15 years, but Icould be off.
But it was a huge thing becausewhen on the rotor of the
helicopter it was sort ofinspiring that any, like you
said, anyone, if it was even agut feeling and needed to abort,
(14:35):
you abort.
And it was interesting becausethe fixed wing aspect hadn't
quite accepted that as much.
But within about five years itwas equally so.
It's real interesting to hearthat.
Yeah.
Carl Peecher (14:51):
And the key to what you're saying, Jodie yeah,
exactly, is it's never complete,you're always moving towards
better.
And it gets difficult becausepeople want to say I've reached
the apex of my profession and Idon't need to learn anything
more, I don't need to improveanymore, I don't need to change
anymore.
And that is the dangerous place.
The most dangerous person to meis the person that comes out so
confident that they say I knoweverything.
(15:14):
They're the ones that scare theheck out of me, especially in
the pilot world, right, becauseif you stop learning, that's
when you should be done withthat career.
And if we all approach medicineor emergency care or aviation
or any complex skill that we'redoing from the point of view is
I still have something to learn,then we're improving and our
brain is active, all thesnapsies are working and you're
(15:36):
learning something and makingbetter.
So it's critical.
Murphy (15:41):
So you know, to this end of coming up a checklist, I
guess, Do you have an example ofa checklist that you've
instituted that's now being usedat the mountain and what has it
done to improve safety andefficiency on the hill?
Carl Peecher (15:55):
Yeah, so change is hard.
Right, change is really hardand I do have an answer to your
question, murph, but that'sreally good.
When we're changing somethingor nudging and that's really the
way I've approached this isthis has to be a gentle nudge.
We can't do a sudden change.
So things I've instituted Ihave had long discussions with
our patrol director and ourassistant patrol director and
(16:17):
others about concepts.
One of the things that hasreally changed is our sign and
sweep runs have been cleaned upmajorly so that they're written
clearly and they define wherewe're going.
And in that conversation we'veeven got and they define where
we're going and in thatconversation we've even got to
the point where we'recommunicating effectively.
Like when I first joined, it wasa race to get to the bottom of
the hill at the end of the dayand it wasn't a criticality to
(16:41):
stop and actually wait for yourpartner on the other side of the
hill to get there.
I was routinely as the slow kidbecause I was still learning
the mountain and figuring my wayout and I still call myself a
newbie right now when I am butit was common that I would be at
my wave off point lookingacross the hill waiting for my
partner over there and they'relong sits gone at the base area,
and so there was a lot of callsand, if you remember, we had
(17:04):
some conversations about stopmaking so many I'm here calls or
where are you calls.
Well, that has changed in thesense that people are actually
following the procedure of whatwe're supposed to do waiting at
that point and what that does.
That's safety for the guests,that's safety for the patrollers
, it's safety for everybodyinvolved, because now nobody
gets left behind.
(17:24):
You know we had a pro patrollerwhat two years ago?
Get wrapped into avalanche,yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know not that thatcould have been changed, but
imagine if that person wassweeping down and got below rock
face and their wave off waswaiting up looking out them but
didn't wait and just kept goingand got wrapped into it and
(17:45):
couldn't communicate.
When are they going to findthat person?
Probably not.
Murphy (17:50):
In the spring, in the spring.
Jodie (17:52):
Exactly so you know this is my point Tree, wells et
cetera.
Carl Peecher (17:56):
Exactly.
So the following of theprocedure and I'm using sign and
sweeps because that was kind ofthe first thing I really
pointed out I was like we don'tknow the mountain.
Remember, mountain fluency wasthe thing I pointed out a few
years ago.
I wrote a big mountain fluencydeal.
Just be fluent with the hillenough that you know where you
are and where you're going andif you don't know, raise your
hand and say help me.
So there's that.
It's not a race.
(18:16):
That's the kind of thing is.
Checklists are not a race,they're a process, and by doing
the process we all are faster,safer and better.
So for when you instituted that.
Jodie (18:28):
so, for both Murph and you, I heard one key thing there
that I really wanted to expandout, and that was to raise your
hand and ask a question.
Yes, do you feel that, sinceyou have?
Carl Peecher (18:52):
instituted that a little bit more more people are
willing to speak up and go.
Well, you know I'm the newbieor whatever, and not wanting to
be shot down, how do you feelthat that has changed so
immensely?
And for lack of better things,I feel pretty vetted in my life.
I don't mind saying I'm adum-dum.
And so what I did is I modeledthe behavior that I was hoping
to institute and so I raised myhand repeatedly publicly and
said, hey, I need help.
Will somebody take me out hereand show me Northway?
Will someone do this?
And I did it publicly andpurposely.
(19:13):
And when I made a mistake, Ispoke up about it.
I said, hey, this is what I did.
Let's all learn from thismistake I made.
And there were several pointswhere some of the things I did,
you know, as a young patroller,you do some dumb, dumb things
and you just make mistakes, youmake wrong calls.
You got to learn that way.
You got to learn and the onlyway to learn is to admit it and
acknowledge it.
You know so in that process,yeah, three years ago I got put
(19:41):
into this role of the safetyliaison and Christian's got an
idea to change it to a littlebit broader name now and again
I'm not a title person.
So I said, if that helps you,great, I'm going to do this.
But in that time I have had somany side conversations and
people were initially coming upto me quietly and saying thank
you or saying, hey, can we go dothis?
I had patrollers several years,my senior saying, hey, carl,
(20:02):
can we go explore out toPowderstache or can we go out
here and do this?
Yeah, let's go.
And both of us didn't know itperfectly well.
But we pull out the map and westart figuring it out and we
made some connections and what Ifound is contrary to the
masculine side of our community,because we're a very type, a
(20:27):
strong personality there were alot of people who did not know
and didn't understand the hillas well as they were expected to
or thought to, and that's justthat.
So, yes, people are doing it.
And now we're getting more andmore and I see it constantly and
against a little nudge, but I'mseeing more people raise their
hand and say help me, I'm notsure, I don't know.
(20:49):
And what I've also noticed isyou know, I had talks with some
of the patrol leaders, the propatrol leaders in particular,
and they are also very mucheager to help.
You know the Forests, the PaulHarringtons.
They're more than happy If youraise your hand and say help me,
they'll stop what they're doingand guide you to what they want
you to do.
Jodie (21:09):
That is crucial yeah exactly Okay.
Murphy (21:15):
So that's all on the good side.
I like that, but on the otherside.
So how do you respond to?
Or are you getting pushback tomake this thing a structured
process, because I know a lot ofpeople in patrol like to be.
You know I could do this.
I've been doing this for, youknow, 20 years.
I don't need to be toldanything.
Are you seeing some of thesepeople that are older patrollers
(21:38):
kind of touched on this,embracing this?
Or are you getting, you know,pushback where we don't need to
do this?
We've done it, you know the oldway for 30 years and it's
worked just fine.
Carl Peecher (21:51):
I've gotten very mixed messaging on that and some
individuals have addressed this.
These changes and suggestionsI'm making from both
perspectives that you just said,murph the same human, but the
Vast Pretoria are on one camp orthe other where they're yeah,
we don't need this stuff, we'vebeen fine all this time.
We don't need to change theother where they're yeah, we
don't need this stuff, we'vebeen fine all this time, we
don't need to change.
(22:11):
Well, I say, great, you don'tmaybe need this because you are
experienced in knowledge, butthe bulk of us do.
And the only way to keep thisin the future going is that we
train and mentor those who arecoming up and learning, and we
have to give them the grace andthe space to actually learn.
So, yes, I am seeing thepredominance of our patrol is
telling me yes, please, thankyou, they like this.
(22:33):
But there are some still thathave approached me like do we
really have this problem?
Do we really have acommunication problem?
Like, well, it's not a problemper se, but we could be better.
We could do more effectivementorship, leadership and
guidance.
We could do better on the hillwith each other, and that's all
we're nudging towards.
Murphy (22:51):
That's awesome, so yeah.
So in your opinion, what's thedifference between a good
patroller and a great patroller?
Carl Peecher (23:03):
A good patroller is competent in all their skills
and tasks.
They are current and proficient, right so.
A good patroller is current, asin.
They've done all their skillsand tasks.
They are current and proficient, right so.
A good patroller is current, asin they've done all their
training, they know what they'redoing, they've done their
studies, they are there andthey're proficient at doing the
task.
I've got a dislocated shoulder.
They know how to sling it.
They know how to swat it.
They know how to deal with abroken femur.
They know how to do the tasksat hand.
(23:25):
A great patroller is one thatwill be on scene and quietly
mentor the person who is lead,rather than taking over and
allow some maybe derivationsfrom the way they would approach
the problem.
But you then use that as alearning opportunity for the
future and, of course, you can'tlet a person bleed out.
Jodie (23:46):
Now, that's not my intent at all.
Murphy (23:47):
Right, That'd be bad.
Carl Peecher (23:48):
Yeah, that would be bad.
When you see something goingcatastrophically wrong, the
person with the knowledge needsto step in.
But what I'm talking about issomething that is minor, that
can be used as a learningopportunity.
It is much more effective foran adult learner to be guided
through it, right?
So in patrol or in scouting, weuse the edge method we explain,
(24:10):
demonstrate, guide, enable.
So we explain what we're doing,we demonstrate it, then we
guide them, then we enable them.
Well, after we've done theexplain and demonstrate, through
the OEC process and our initialassessment, now we're in the
guide and enable.
And the guide and enable is thedifficult part is where the
great patroller will step backand actually allow some slight
(24:30):
deviations.
They might see something andthey might come up and whisper
in the lead patroller's ear andsay have you thought about this?
Or let's go this way?
Or, even better yet, they'lljust take care of it, they'll
just do it and then later ondebrief it and talk about it in
the future.
Right, because debriefing iswhere the gold is, and that is
the thing.
If we could instill somethingconsistently is a debrief from
(24:53):
every single event run process,and it doesn't have to be like
okay, I did this, you did this.
It's not a negative, it's apositive.
It is this occurred what isright, not who is right.
This is what we should do.
What would I do differentlynext time?
Murphy (25:08):
Exactly so, without using any names, right to
protect the innocent.
Give me an example of like amemorable rescue or a shift
where you've employed thesechanges using the edge method,
and what's been the result andwhat's been the?
Carl Peecher (25:26):
result.
Sure, I could think of severalof them, one in particular we
had.
It was back that was mostlikely broken, suspected lower
back injury center midline.
So it was that and onepatroller was on scene and
called for help and four or fiveother people showed up and when
(25:48):
I got there I was about thefifth or sixth patroller, I
can't remember exactly which.
It was just below Rex, at thewashout above upper BS, and if
you know, there right below theRex Tower line, there's a big
turn of trees and a lot ofpeople like to come around that
corner.
It's where we put that L-shapedrope and then come around that
corner with vigor and leap off.
Well, the injury was just belowthat.
(26:10):
So there we got on scene andeverybody was.
You know, a bunch, ball is,bunch, ball is when soccer is
played and all the seven oreight year olds, everybody goes
to the ball.
Well, every single patrollerwas on the ball and nobody was
looking at the bigger picture,nobody was looking out and going
above.
So, rather than adding one morebody to the fray, I went up and
(26:33):
started isolating above us andgetting that area cleared out,
and so, as you do that, I gotanother patrol agency and got
them to take over, and we wentdown and we started talking
about this, and it's just amatter of seeing what tasks need
to be done next.
So in that case, there wereseveral tasks that had not been
yet completed and weren'tprepared for, and so we were
just kind of guiding it alongand moving it along that way.
Murphy (26:56):
Right.
And I do remember after thatincident our patrol leader wound
up talking about hillmanagement.
When you're into a scene andyou've got a blind spot or
you're coming over a knoll orsomething and people forgetting
to manage uphill Because peopledo it at a jump, that's just
(27:18):
second nature.
Okay, we've got to jump, we'vegot to block that off.
But we have a number of areasin the hill where you're coming
across.
Just like you said, people getspeed, they wind up hitting a
little roll and they can getairborne and it's impossible to
stop once you're committed.
Carl Peecher (27:35):
Exactly, and that's where the injuries are
gonna occur, because wherepeople are doing the big motions
is where people are gonna gethurt.
Murphy (27:41):
Absolutely Secondary injuries.
Today's guest is Carl Peacher from the Crystal
Mountain Ski Patrol.
Carl's currently on the SkiPatrol and, ironically, carl's
on patrol with me.
So we're bringing in Carl as aspecial guest because Carl does
a lot for safety and patrolwellness and he's done a bunch
of great videos with the CrystalMountain Ski Patrol.
(00:21):
So my partner in crime, Jodie,talked to her and we were saying
you know, this would be a greatguest to bring on and have
conversations with, because, aswe all know, Jodie is very deep
into the safety and wellnessprogram here at the Pacific
Northwest Division.
So, Carl, start out byintroducing yourself.
Tell us you know who you are,what you do, tell us your
(00:43):
patroller number and give aquick introduction.
Carl Peecher (00:47):
Oh goodness, patroller number.
I don't have that one memorized.
I probably should, but I canstart right there.
I've already failed one step.
I'm Carl Peacher.
I joined patrol in the COVIDyears, so it was kind of a
unique time.
So this is.
I just finished my fifth seasonin patrol and this will be
coming into my sixth.
I was in the United StatesMarine Corps when I started my
life.
After high school and collegeWent off, moved to the Navy
(01:11):
Reserve when I got off activeduty and then came back to the
Northwest in 2005 and startedskiing with vigor at that point
and that's when I really startedskiing.
So I'm an older learner and Ifly for Alaska Airlines and fly
some little planes on my own andjust have a great time with
that.
Like I said, I've beenpatrolling now for my sixth
season.
Jodie (01:32):
I like how he says I just fly with Alaska.
Yeah, I fly for Alaska, Justfly.
Carl Peecher (01:38):
Yeah, I'm a tech airman for Alaska, so actually
this topic that we're going tocover and what I've been
bringing patrol, as we'll getinto it is very dear and near to
me because I take vetted pilotsand teach them how to work
together more effectively, andsafety and crew coordination and
communication is critical toall that and we'll talk it
(01:58):
through.
But that's where the foundationof what I do and what I'm
bringing here for it and it'svery similar to what I did
within the core.
Wow, is that my number?
Jodie (02:08):
you just know yes it is, that is your number to memorize.
There you go.
So we're going to ask you doyou have a national number?
Murphy (02:17):
Oh, sorry, I was talking over you.
Do you have a national number,carl?
Carl Peecher (02:20):
I believe so no, I guess not.
Murphy (02:23):
That's okay we ask just because you know a national
number is a special number thatthey pass out for Don't worry, I
don't have one either that theypass out to folks that have
contributed a lot of time,energy, to the patrol over many
years.
A couple people, let's see onour patrol.
(02:43):
Evan has a national number andit's a okay a number in addition
to your normal ski patrolnumber, right?
So I've got my number and thenyou've got a national number
that they give you and there'sonly 10.
Where are they up to Jodie?
10 to 11,000.
So there's 250,000 that havebeen patrollers since 1938.
(03:09):
But there's 10,000 people thathave a national number, so a few
.
So anyway.
Carl Peecher (03:18):
So that's a very interesting topic.
It'll probably come into thisas well.
But for me personally, mymotivation to do everything that
I do is not about awards,honors, numbers or anything else
.
It is just being part ofsomething bigger.
So often those sorts of thingsin my little brain just kind of
drift off to the side.
Is that just rather be part ofthe system?
So I often personally kind ofput that to the back and that's
(03:40):
probably why I don't have thosethings memorized.
Jodie (03:50):
You're fine and that's like Murphy and I have talked
many a times.
We're not here for therecognition, and it's nice when
something happens by far and youfeel honored, but it's that's
not why we're here.
Carl Peecher (03:56):
Correct yes, ma'am .
Murphy (03:58):
So let's go into a little background and what
motivated you to join the SkiPatrol.
So, first of all, what drew youto join the Ski Patrol?
So first of all, what drew youto join the Ski Patrol?
You know you were out flyingplanes in the wild blue yonder
watching the movie Catch Me Ifyou Can, and then go.
Okay, I'm going to join the SkiPatrol.
What precipitated that?
Carl Peecher (04:18):
Well, it goes back in time as a young man, when I
was leaving high school, I waslooking for a next big challenge
.
I was a runner in high school,a long distance man.
When I was leaving high school,I was looking for a next big
challenge.
I was a runner in high school,a long-distance runner, and I
was looking for something tochallenge me, and that drew me
to the Marine Corps.
And when I got to the Corps, Ifound this group of people that
were very mission-oriented,teamwork-oriented, worked
together and it felt like youwere part of something fantastic
(04:40):
.
You were getting somewhere anddoing more.
When I went off and I went tothe Navy Reserve, I found a
little different environment andit was very true, I was drawn
to that first.
So what drew me to patrol is,as I found myself on the hill, I
kept looking at the patrollersand admiring what they were
doing.
I would see them setting up thehill, getting things ready.
I would see them on scenetaking care of someone in need,
(05:04):
and that was something that drewme to it and I just was excited
to be part of that and my dutyto give back and be something,
part of bigger, part of thesolution, and so that's kind of
what did it, and it also givesme a pretty good opportunity to
learn.
I've learned much more aboutskiing and outdoor survival and
skills in snow conditions than Iknew, didn't know, I didn't
(05:27):
know how about that?
Murphy (05:28):
Yeah, that does happen.
So how has your perspectivechanged on skiing in the ski
community since you joined thepatrol?
I mean, you looked at it from,you know, the brochure side,
let's call it and now you'vebeen in the patrol for five
years.
What's changed?
Carl Peecher (05:43):
Well, with knowledge comes perspective, and
with perspective you can seethings that you didn't see
before.
And you know, from my point ofview I see threats now that I
didn't see before, I didn't evenknow they existed.
And also, you know personallyand morally now I feel more
confident when I'm out hiking orin the wilderness or anything
else with another partner that Icould actually help them if
(06:06):
there was a problem.
So that's kind of that's theperspective changed is.
You know, I have moreperspective, I have a bigger
picture of what is what'savailable.
Murphy (06:18):
Okay, that's good, I like that.
So you know being a pilot andyou know being a former Marine
Corps and Navy pilot.
Now you're in patrol.
How do you balance all of that?
You know work, because being apilot is not an easy job.
You're gone, you're away fromhome, you come back and then you
got to go to the mountain andthen come back.
So I mean your wife is probablya winter widow at some point.
Carl Peecher (06:42):
Well, she's a big skier as well.
So we come up to CrystalMountain and basically, and
we're snowbirds, we are truesnowbirds, though we leave Squim
, where it's sunny all summer,and then we go to the mountains
when it starts snowing.
So we live in our forestservice cabin up there over the
winter and just ski all winterlong.
And so, you know, a pilot iseclectic, to say the best.
(07:04):
My work, I don't know holidays,I don't know weekends, I don't
know anything else.
I just I work when the systemneeds me.
So I often have a Tuesday,wednesday, thursday, friday off,
or I'll have a Thursday throughMonday off, and so what it
works out is effectively oneweekend a month.
That we're patrolling is asmall hit compared to the time
(07:25):
that we still get up on themountain and ski.
So, yes, it is a little bit ofa winter widow in the sense of
on that weekend I'm busy and offand that's somewhat frustrating
, but for me it is a greatoutlet and a place to go.
Murphy (07:38):
So how come I've never met your wife at the mountain?
Does she ski at Crystal?
Carl Peecher (07:42):
She does.
Yeah, she's up there andusually wearing teal from top to
bottom.
Murphy (07:47):
I think I have introduced you at some point,
but you were probably teaching aclass or something like that.
Carl Peecher (07:51):
That's painful, It'd be like me.
I get introduced to so manypeople and I look and I'm like I
know you, but I'm struggling.
I just don't remember
Jodie (08:03):
You're going to have to make up for that next
introduction.
I know right, I'm going to haveto be really vigorous.
Murphy (08:09):
I was leaving the swimming pool the other day and
this woman was walking out withme and I said I know you Do, you
do triathlons whatever.
No, no, no.
And she finally goes hey, I'm alifeguard here and I went.
Oh, that's where I know youfrom.
Carl Peecher (08:24):
It's like yeah, I can recognize the face, but I
just couldn't put the name there, and you know our listeners
can't see this, but if you looknormally, what we see of a skier
is this you see your eyes andyour nose and that's it, and
that's behind a goggle.
So you take all that off andyou're in person.
It's like who are?
Jodie (08:39):
you.
Carl Peecher (08:41):
Yeah, I ran into Charlie just a couple of days
ago up at the hill, one of thepros running the mountain, and
he looked at me like hey, howare you?
Thankfully he had his namepatch on because I had to put it
all together Like yes, you'reCharlie.
Oh, that's funny, yeah, so whatsimilarities do you see between
(09:05):
you know, in the teamwork aspect, between aviation and the
mountain?
Oh, immense.
So that and that is reallywhere I'm kind of focusing my
thoughts In teamwork in aviationis critical.
We take a 65 year old and a 23year old and put them in a small
little plane and tell them togo do one of the most complex
tasks possible, and at anymoment during that task
something can go wrong and theycould be in a crisis.
So in patrol it's very similarwe don't know who's going to be
(09:27):
on scene, and so that teamworkand the way things put together,
you just have to.
Everybody has to be prepared atany given moment to work
together.
So, as far as I think yourquestion was around checklists,
yeah, Well, we're going to gothere.
Murphy (09:40):
Yeah, this is kind of my follow-up question is so you're
bringing some of theseprocesses that we've had and I
just have to tell everybody thatI wound up being the benefit of
going to a 737 simulator withCarl and my daughter, and he
taught us how to fly a 737.
Of course, my daughter didbetter than I did.
Of course, but the procedures of?
(10:05):
And Carl asked me this Do youwant to fire up the airplane?
I go, yeah, let's go from startto actual flying.
And so he had my daughter flipon a million buttons and
actually go through the wholepre-flight deal.
And so you know, as you bringthat into patrol, I guess what
(10:26):
was the idea that got youthinking hey, you know, I'm
taking this thing and I do itall the time.
The Ski Patrol has been aroundsince 1938, yet we don't have
certain checklists where I thinkthey should have checklists.
Carl Peecher (10:43):
I mean, how did that happen and come to fruition
Well.
So this has been a lifetimegoal.
So you know, when I joined theMarine Corps in 92, and I went
into the aviation community ofthe Marine Corps, they were
still in a pretty violenttransition from the 70s.
In the 70s a concept of CRM,crew resource management was
developed.
So crew resource management andangled carrier decks came in at
(11:05):
that same time and in thatconcept the idea was this
leveling the playing field.
Everybody in the solution,everybody in the game, is part
of the solution and we don'thave a single person who is the
one runner of it all, who is thegod of the system.
So the idea is that theyoungest, most inexperienced
person can see a threat, pointout a threat and stop the
(11:28):
operation as necessary to makeit work.
Well, I saw that transitiongoing and the airlines are
actually catching up with it inthe late 90s.
That's when they really startedand it's still being developed
now.
This whole concept was observedby a risk management PhD
candidate some years back andwhen he looked at it he started
(11:49):
to look at the whole system andsay, well, how do we mitigate
problems?
How do I make things better?
And when he looked at it hewent well, let's go to the
airline world, because they dothis complex task with these
multi-hundred thousand orhundred thousand pound plus
aircraft and then they go dosomething out there and they do
it safely, routinely.
What do they do differently?
And he went and studied theairlines and found this all out
(12:11):
and in the process he realizedthat this could go into other
industries.
In particular, it went intomedicine and there's a book
called the Checklist Manifestoand that book was a concept and
it was.
If you go back and you remember,there were lawsuits about
doctors making mistakes insurgery, doing the surgery on
the wrong side of the body orleaving devices in bodies,
(12:34):
things like that when they weredoing the surgery.
And part of that was it came toas simple as introducing
yourself when you get into thesurgery room and introducing hi,
I'm Dr Carl, I'm going to bedoing this.
Hi, I'm nurse Susie.
I'm going to do this.
I'm Steve.
I'm the anesthesiologist.
Do that introduction process.
Jodie (12:52):
And a timeout.
I work as an ER nurse, so, yes,when you do procedures, it's
timeout, and they've advanced itto when EMS brings in a patient
.
We were supposed to give acritical timeout, so everyone
listens.
Carl Peecher (13:07):
Yes, and that's the key.
Jodie (13:09):
Still has to grow, but yes, Right.
Carl Peecher (13:14):
And that timeout exactly, Jodie, is where you get
the concept where the mostexperienced and knowledgeable
person in the room probably thedoctor still doesn't have the
skills, proficiency and currencyto do many of the tasks that
are required, and may not havethe proficiency and knowledge to
know why that subordinate taskyou know, subordinate in a grand
(13:35):
scheme is so critical to thesuccess of what he's going to do
or she's going to do.
So that's where that timeoutcomes in is being able to make
sure that things go right andhow they are manifesting out.
I think I might've answeredyour question, but I'm not sure
if I strayed off a little bitthere.
Jodie (13:51):
Oh no, I'm going to interject real quick on this,
because we talked two years ago,Carl, when we were talking
about things in safety and stuffand I shared and this is
because that exactly spot on, Iwant to say it was late 90s I
was a flight nurse out inMontana and that's when the crew
resource, uh sort of concept,came in and I hadn't seen it
(14:14):
working in the hospitals as muchuntil probably, I want to say
in the last 15 years, but Icould be off.
But it was a huge thing becausewhen on the rotor of the
helicopter it was sort ofinspiring that any, like you
said, anyone, if it was even agut feeling and needed to abort,
(14:35):
you abort.
And it was interesting becausethe fixed wing aspect hadn't
quite accepted that as much.
But within about five years itwas equally so.
It's real interesting to hearthat.
Yeah.
Carl Peecher (14:51):
And the key to what you're saying, Jodie yeah,
exactly, is it's never complete,you're always moving towards
better.
And it gets difficult becausepeople want to say I've reached
the apex of my profession and Idon't need to learn anything
more, I don't need to improveanymore, I don't need to change
anymore.
And that is the dangerous place.
The most dangerous person to meis the person that comes out so
confident that they say I knoweverything.
(15:14):
They're the ones that scare theheck out of me, especially in
the pilot world, right, becauseif you stop learning, that's
when you should be done withthat career.
And if we all approach medicineor emergency care or aviation
or any complex skill that we'redoing from the point of view is
I still have something to learn,then we're improving and our
brain is active, all thesnapsies are working and you're
(15:36):
learning something and makingbetter.
So it's critical.
Murphy (15:41):
So you know, to this end of coming up a checklist, I
guess, Do you have an example ofa checklist that you've
instituted that's now being usedat the mountain and what has it
done to improve safety andefficiency on the hill?
Carl Peecher (15:55):
Yeah, so change is hard.
Right, change is really hardand I do have an answer to your
question, murph, but that'sreally good.
When we're changing somethingor nudging and that's really the
way I've approached this isthis has to be a gentle nudge.
We can't do a sudden change.
So things I've instituted Ihave had long discussions with
our patrol director and ourassistant patrol director and
(16:17):
others about concepts.
One of the things that hasreally changed is our sign and
sweep runs have been cleaned upmajorly so that they're written
clearly and they define wherewe're going.
And in that conversation we'veeven got and they define where
we're going and in thatconversation we've even got to
the point where we'recommunicating effectively.
Like when I first joined, it wasa race to get to the bottom of
the hill at the end of the dayand it wasn't a criticality to
(16:41):
stop and actually wait for yourpartner on the other side of the
hill to get there.
I was routinely as the slow kidbecause I was still learning
the mountain and figuring my wayout and I still call myself a
newbie right now when I am butit was common that I would be at
my wave off point lookingacross the hill waiting for my
partner over there and they'relong sits gone at the base area,
and so there was a lot of callsand, if you remember, we had
(17:04):
some conversations about stopmaking so many I'm here calls or
where are you calls.
Well, that has changed in thesense that people are actually
following the procedure of whatwe're supposed to do waiting at
that point and what that does.
That's safety for the guests,that's safety for the patrollers
, it's safety for everybodyinvolved, because now nobody
gets left behind.
(17:24):
You know we had a pro patrollerwhat two years ago?
Get wrapped into avalanche,yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know not that thatcould have been changed, but
imagine if that person wassweeping down and got below rock
face and their wave off waswaiting up looking out them but
didn't wait and just kept goingand got wrapped into it and
(17:45):
couldn't communicate.
When are they going to findthat person?
Probably not.
Murphy (17:50):
In the spring, in the spring.
Jodie (17:52):
Exactly so you know this is my point Tree, wells et
cetera.
Carl Peecher (17:56):
Exactly.
So the following of theprocedure and I'm using sign and
sweeps because that was kind ofthe first thing I really
pointed out I was like we don'tknow the mountain.
Remember, mountain fluency wasthe thing I pointed out a few
years ago.
I wrote a big mountain fluencydeal.
Just be fluent with the hillenough that you know where you
are and where you're going andif you don't know, raise your
hand and say help me.
So there's that.
It's not a race.
(18:16):
That's the kind of thing is.
Checklists are not a race,they're a process, and by doing
the process we all are faster,safer and better.
So for when you instituted that.
Jodie (18:28):
so, for both Murph and you, I heard one key thing there
that I really wanted to expandout, and that was to raise your
hand and ask a question.
Yes, do you feel that, sinceyou have?
Carl Peecher (18:52):
instituted that a little bit more more people are
willing to speak up and go.
Well, you know I'm the newbieor whatever, and not wanting to
be shot down, how do you feelthat that has changed so
immensely?
And for lack of better things,I feel pretty vetted in my life.
I don't mind saying I'm adum-dum.
And so what I did is I modeledthe behavior that I was hoping
to institute and so I raised myhand repeatedly publicly and
said, hey, I need help.
Will somebody take me out hereand show me Northway?
Will someone do this?
And I did it publicly andpurposely.
(19:13):
And when I made a mistake, Ispoke up about it.
I said, hey, this is what I did.
Let's all learn from thismistake I made.
And there were several pointswhere some of the things I did,
you know, as a young patroller,you do some dumb, dumb things
and you just make mistakes, youmake wrong calls.
You got to learn that way.
You got to learn and the onlyway to learn is to admit it and
acknowledge it.
You know so in that process,yeah, three years ago I got put
(19:41):
into this role of the safetyliaison and Christian's got an
idea to change it to a littlebit broader name now and again
I'm not a title person.
So I said, if that helps you,great, I'm going to do this.
But in that time I have had somany side conversations and
people were initially coming upto me quietly and saying thank
you or saying, hey, can we go dothis?
I had patrollers several years,my senior saying, hey, carl,
(20:02):
can we go explore out toPowderstache or can we go out
here and do this?
Yeah, let's go.
And both of us didn't know itperfectly well.
But we pull out the map and westart figuring it out and we
made some connections and what Ifound is contrary to the
masculine side of our community,because we're a very type, a
(20:27):
strong personality there were alot of people who did not know
and didn't understand the hillas well as they were expected to
or thought to, and that's justthat.
So, yes, people are doing it.
And now we're getting more andmore and I see it constantly and
against a little nudge, but I'mseeing more people raise their
hand and say help me, I'm notsure, I don't know.
(20:49):
And what I've also noticed isyou know, I had talks with some
of the patrol leaders, the propatrol leaders in particular,
and they are also very mucheager to help.
You know the Forests, the PaulHarringtons.
They're more than happy If youraise your hand and say help me,
they'll stop what they're doingand guide you to what they want
you to do.
Jodie (21:09):
That is crucial yeah exactly Okay.
Murphy (21:15):
So that's all on the good side.
I like that, but on the otherside.
So how do you respond to?
Or are you getting pushback tomake this thing a structured
process, because I know a lot ofpeople in patrol like to be.
You know I could do this.
I've been doing this for, youknow, 20 years.
I don't need to be toldanything.
Are you seeing some of thesepeople that are older patrollers
(21:38):
kind of touched on this,embracing this?
Or are you getting, you know,pushback where we don't need to
do this?
We've done it, you know the oldway for 30 years and it's
worked just fine.
Carl Peecher (21:51):
I've gotten very mixed messaging on that and some
individuals have addressed this.
These changes and suggestionsI'm making from both
perspectives that you just said,murph the same human, but the
Vast Pretoria are on one camp orthe other where they're yeah,
we don't need this stuff, we'vebeen fine all this time.
We don't need to change theother where they're yeah, we
don't need this stuff, we'vebeen fine all this time, we
don't need to change.
(22:11):
Well, I say, great, you don'tmaybe need this because you are
experienced in knowledge, butthe bulk of us do.
And the only way to keep thisin the future going is that we
train and mentor those who arecoming up and learning, and we
have to give them the grace andthe space to actually learn.
So, yes, I am seeing thepredominance of our patrol is
telling me yes, please, thankyou, they like this.
(22:33):
But there are some still thathave approached me like do we
really have this problem?
Do we really have acommunication problem?
Like, well, it's not a problemper se, but we could be better.
We could do more effectivementorship, leadership and
guidance.
We could do better on the hillwith each other, and that's all
we're nudging towards.
Murphy (22:51):
That's awesome, so yeah.
So in your opinion, what's thedifference between a good
patroller and a great patroller?
Carl Peecher (23:03):
A good patroller is competent in all their skills
and tasks.
They are current and proficient, right so.
A good patroller is current, asin.
They've done all their skillsand tasks.
They are current and proficient, right so.
A good patroller is current, asin they've done all their
training, they know what they'redoing, they've done their
studies, they are there andthey're proficient at doing the
task.
I've got a dislocated shoulder.
They know how to sling it.
They know how to swat it.
They know how to deal with abroken femur.
They know how to do the tasksat hand.
(23:25):
A great patroller is one thatwill be on scene and quietly
mentor the person who is lead,rather than taking over and
allow some maybe derivationsfrom the way they would approach
the problem.
But you then use that as alearning opportunity for the
future and, of course, you can'tlet a person bleed out.
Jodie (23:46):
Now, that's not my intent at all.
Murphy (23:47):
Right, That'd be bad.
Carl Peecher (23:48):
Yeah, that would be bad.
When you see something goingcatastrophically wrong, the
person with the knowledge needsto step in.
But what I'm talking about issomething that is minor, that
can be used as a learningopportunity.
It is much more effective foran adult learner to be guided
through it, right?
So in patrol or in scouting, weuse the edge method we explain,
(24:10):
demonstrate, guide, enable.
So we explain what we're doing,we demonstrate it, then we
guide them, then we enable them.
Well, after we've done theexplain and demonstrate, through
the OEC process and our initialassessment, now we're in the
guide and enable.
And the guide and enable is thedifficult part is where the
great patroller will step backand actually allow some slight
(24:30):
deviations.
They might see something andthey might come up and whisper
in the lead patroller's ear andsay have you thought about this?
Or let's go this way?
Or, even better yet, they'lljust take care of it, they'll
just do it and then later ondebrief it and talk about it in
the future.
Right, because debriefing iswhere the gold is, and that is
the thing.
If we could instill somethingconsistently is a debrief from
(24:53):
every single event run process,and it doesn't have to be like
okay, I did this, you did this.
It's not a negative, it's apositive.
It is this occurred what isright, not who is right.
This is what we should do.
What would I do differentlynext time?
Murphy (25:08):
Exactly so, without using any names, right to
protect the innocent.
Give me an example of like amemorable rescue or a shift
where you've employed thesechanges using the edge method,
and what's been the result andwhat's been the?
Carl Peecher (25:26):
result.
Sure, I could think of severalof them, one in particular we
had.
It was back that was mostlikely broken, suspected lower
back injury center midline.
So it was that and onepatroller was on scene and
called for help and four or fiveother people showed up and when
(25:48):
I got there I was about thefifth or sixth patroller, I
can't remember exactly which.
It was just below Rex, at thewashout above upper BS, and if
you know, there right below theRex Tower line, there's a big
turn of trees and a lot ofpeople like to come around that
corner.
It's where we put that L-shapedrope and then come around that
corner with vigor and leap off.
Well, the injury was just belowthat.
(26:10):
So there we got on scene andeverybody was.
You know, a bunch, ball is,bunch, ball is when soccer is
played and all the seven oreight year olds, everybody goes
to the ball.
Well, every single patrollerwas on the ball and nobody was
looking at the bigger picture,nobody was looking out and going
above.
So, rather than adding one morebody to the fray, I went up and
(26:33):
started isolating above us andgetting that area cleared out,
and so, as you do that, I gotanother patrol agency and got
them to take over, and we wentdown and we started talking
about this, and it's just amatter of seeing what tasks need
to be done next.
So in that case, there wereseveral tasks that had not been
yet completed and weren'tprepared for, and so we were
just kind of guiding it alongand moving it along that way.
Murphy (26:56):
Right.
And I do remember after thatincident our patrol leader wound
up talking about hillmanagement.
When you're into a scene andyou've got a blind spot or
you're coming over a knoll orsomething and people forgetting
to manage uphill Because peopledo it at a jump, that's just
(27:18):
second nature.
Okay, we've got to jump, we'vegot to block that off.
But we have a number of areasin the hill where you're coming
across.
Just like you said, people getspeed, they wind up hitting a
little roll and they can getairborne and it's impossible to
stop once you're committed.
Carl Peecher (27:35):
Exactly, and that's where the injuries are
gonna occur, because wherepeople are doing the big motions
is where people are gonna gethurt.
Murphy (27:41):
Absolutely Secondary injuries.
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