The legendary Penn Jillette joins the podcast to discuss his new book "Felony Juggler," sharing stories from his adventurous past when he lived the nomadic lifestyle Bob Dylan only pretended to have. Penn reveals how he hitchhiked across America, hopped trains, and worked as a street performer - all inspired by Dylan's fictional autobiography.
• Penn's passion for diverse music and concerns about today's algorithm-driven cultural isolation
• The surprising revelation that Penn actually lived out Bob Dylan's made-up nomadic lifestyle
• How street performing was financially rewarding, paying more than his early Off-Broadway career
• Penn's unique relationship with Teller, revealing they rarely socialize despite 50 years as partners
• Modern clowning and performers like Puddles Pity Party who are reinventing the art form
• The distinction between Penn's chosen nomadic youth and actual homelessness
Join Penn Jillette for a book signing at Capital Books in Sacramento on August 4th at 7pm. Get your tickets at capitalbooksonscom.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome my friends to the Pats Peeps podcast number
306.
It's a Mondayay, july 28th, andas I look out my studio windows
into the beautiful foothills ofnorthern california, it's a
lovely day and again not as hotas you would see this time of
(00:38):
year in july absolutely amazing.
My name is pat walsh.
I'm the host of the Pat WalshShow, as heard on KFBK Radio in
Sacramento, 93.1 FM, 1530 AM,streaming live everywhere on all
of your streaming platforms,including, of course, the
iHeartRadio platform.
We are owned by iHeart there.
(00:59):
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Just do yourself a favor, justgo to patspeepscom.
If we can get the othercomponent of this business going
(01:20):
, it would be so helpful to meand to all of these businesses
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(01:42):
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So just type in patspeepscomand look at our little mall.
Our next Pat's Peeps gatheringwe're going to have a Pat's
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has a business to bring some oftheir goods and show them to
(02:04):
people who then, you know, canpurchase them or look at them or
learn more about them.
So I'm very excited.
Speaking of excited, today hereon Pat's Peeps 306, we have a
special guest.
I've really been enjoyinglately bringing in special
guests.
You know, what's happening isI'm now getting people asking me
(02:28):
versus me saying, hey, you knowI'm looking for this person.
They're now asking me how wouldyou like to have this person on
your podcast?
We enjoy your podcast, thankyou, the latest being Penn
Jillette of Penn and Teller someof the greatest magicians ever
and I had the opportunity tospeak with Penn Gillette.
He's got a new book out FelonyJuggler.
(02:50):
He's coming to Sacramento andwe thought, you know what, let's
have him on the show.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Hello, this is Penn.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Penn, what a pleasure to meet you, man.
I'm doing fine.
Thank you very much for asking.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
How are you today?
I'm doing fine.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Thank you very much for asking.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I'm doing well.
Thank you, I'm doing well.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I love that you're coming to town.
I guess you know Mark S Allenpretty well, huh.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, well, I used to introduce him a lot on Comedy
Central, so that's ourconnection there.
He did Short Attention, spamTheater and I was always the
voice of Comedy Central in thosedays.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Oh, and that's right.
I remember you were the voiceof Comedy Central.
Yeah, whatever happened withthat?
As we're talking with PennJillette of Penn Teller, I've
got so many things.
What happened to the ComedyCentral gig?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Well, it was a one-year job, job that went
eight years, so it went prettywell.
I I made it through um threechanges of management, which is
not bad, and by that time it wasmostly in new york and by that
time I'd moved out to vegas doit?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
does everyone that you that interviews, you have as
a conversation with you?
Do they give you the standardintro?
Do you know your standard introthat I was given?
I could do that.
I have a better intro, but Ihave the standard intro.
If you'd like to hear that, dowhatever you want.
Ladies and gentlemen, here's thestandard intro for this man who
I've been a fan of, and I'vegot a little quick story I want
to share with you too bengillette joining us, who is just
(04:22):
a super cool guy, by the way,who, with Penn and Teller, have
now had the longest residency Imean, I know you hear that all
the time in Las Vegas.
So here's our intro.
Our guest tonight is half ofone of the most legendary magic
duos on the planet.
An author, a podcaster, a manwho's made skepticism cooler
than pulling a rabbit out of thehat.
He's fooled audiences, fooledmagiciansians and somehow
(04:44):
convinced us he doesn't talk toomuch, despite writing a brand
new book called felony juggleruh, please welcome.
Also known, the one that talksis pen gillette, or, as I like
to say, the former drummer ofloud hate.
That's where you probably knowwell, thank you.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Thank you for the uh, for the introduction yeah,
certainly you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I you know one thing I love about you and I could, we
could talk about the fact thatyou are coming, your new book,
welcome.
One thing I love about you andwe can talk about the fact that
you are coming, your new book.
You're going to be here andyou're going to be in Sacramento
, capital Books.
You're going to be signing yourbooks the Felony Juggler, which
is a portion of your life,which is super interesting, that
I want to talk about that and Ijust think it's really cool
that you wrote about this.
(05:23):
It's going to be happening onthe 4th of August, 7 pm, capital
Books, here in Sacramento.
You know, one thing I knowabout you is that you and I
started with the drummer thingbecause I know you're a fan of
music.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, I'm a big fan.
I play upright bass.
I'm mostly playing jazz now.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Oh well, you know, I think, that you and I have
something in common in terms ofmusic and that is a fondness for
that you'd hear like theaverage white band, and it
(06:05):
really exposed us, I think thoseof us who love music like you
do.
It exposed us to so manydifferent genres of music.
How important was that to youwhen you were growing up?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh, that was very, very important.
I mean also all the Motownstuff, and James Brown was just
mixed in with, you know, withstuff, all the 70s not as much,
but stuff like the Beatles andyou know the Eagles were on the
same, you know the same radiostation as Soul.
(06:39):
And we've broken down ourdemographics.
You know my children are 19 and20.
And music to them is targetedso exactly, even though we have
now the Internet which gives usaccess to all music.
(07:00):
I mean, when I was growing up ina small town I had to like
order Edgar Barret's, you know20th century classical weird
stuff, stravinsky I had to orderand then wait weeks.
The Lenny Bruce records I hadto wait for.
You know I could get the stuffthat was more mainstream, which
(07:21):
is to say like the Mother'sInvention and so on.
But it's remarkable that whatwe have available to us is so
much greater and yet what wehave desire for has been made
more limited.
They've done so much in ourculture and I think part of the
(07:44):
fault of this is the internetgetting so good at learning
about us that even though wehave more available to us, we
tend to stay even tighter withinour group, and I think that's
doing a lot of damage musically,culturally, all of art and
certainly all of politics, andsociety has broken it down.
(08:07):
So there's even more lonelinessand less expansiveness and I
think it'll turn around, but itmight take a while.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, I mean those are very good points.
And, as you're saying, vareseand Stravinsky, I'm thinking I
wonder if he's a Zappa fan.
And then you say Mothers ofAdventure Like I'm a huge Frank
fan.
And when you said those namesI'm like I wonder if he's a
Zappa fan.
And then you say Mothers ofInvention Like I'm a huge Frank
fan.
And when you said those namesI'm like oh, those are both
Frank influences big time.
And then you mentioned theMothers of Invention, which,
well, I was fortunate.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I was fortunate to have.
I did not know him well, but Ihad dinner and spent a rather
long evening with Frank and itwas a wonderful experience to
talk music with Frank and heplayed me some stuff.
It was pretty great.
I know Moon a little bit nowand we get to talk about her dad
(08:56):
, so that's nice.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, I've had the opportunity to speak with
Dweezil on numerous occasionsand introduce his band.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Oh yeah, he's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
He's such a good guy I mean, this guy is so caring
about his fans, Penn, that hesits there and he signs
autographs until there's no oneleft out there and I could just
tell you were a music fan.
So I really hope you don't mindthat I started with that rather
than magic, Not at all.
You know, if I may share a story.
This is so funny.
This is probably that's notreally funny, but it was
(09:27):
interesting to me.
So, um, I don't know, maybe it's20 years ago, something like
that a buddy and I were up insouth lake tahoe and we decide
you know, hey, we're going to goto this brunch, and we so we
hear that harrah's has a verygood brunch, and you got to go
up the elevator to one of thetop floors I don't remember how
high up there was and on thisparticular morning the brunch
was very full, a lot of peopleand they said, well, we have a
(09:48):
table in the back, and so theytake us back to this back area
and sitting right next to myfriend and I are Penn and Teller
.
And I look at my friend and I gothis is Penn and Teller, and
we're the only ones in this area, and we were sitting there and
we were so fascinated by thefact that it was you guys and
(10:10):
and that teller was speaking.
You were having thisconversation and I remember us
thinking, wow, how many of otherpeople have really even heard
him speak?
Uh, so that was a fond memorythat you were unaware of, but I
have in my mind.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, you know, that's actually fairly rare
because, you know, teller and Icare very much about our show
but we don't socialize veryoften, so it's very rare.
We probably eat a meal together, maybe, you know, four or five
times a year.
Whoa, so that was a.
(10:45):
You really caught us on a rareoccasion.
But yeah, we're still goingstrong.
You know 50 years and we'restill banging out the shows.
Bob Dylan said me.
I'm still on the road headingfor another joint.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Which let's get into your book, which I just love.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ithink this is like a time of
your life, maybe when you were alate teenager somewhere, I
don't know 17, 18 years old, andyou're kind of living
vicariously, in a way, throughBob Dylan music, and here you
are thinking you're living thislifestyle that Bob Dylan would
(11:26):
love and he's telling the worldhe's living this lifestyle and
this is the segment of time thatyou're writing about in your
new book.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, you know, bob went from the University of
Minnesota to spokesperson forhis generation in about six
months and he was asked to writea quick bio for his first
record and he said that hehitchhiked around the country
and hopped trains and worked incarnivals.
(11:56):
And he made all this up becauseall he'd really ever done was,
you know, been at his father'shardware store and been to
Minnesota, to college, toMinneapolis, and you know he met
Woody and he did a little bitof traveling, but very little.
But I read that and didn't knowthat Bob had made it up.
(12:16):
So I lived it.
I actually did hop trains, Iactually did hitchhike, I
actually did work carnivals andfor years I thought I was
following in Bob Dylan'sfootsteps and he just made it up
.
So if you read about what BobDylan did in his early days,
that is years that I lived, justyou know, sleeping rough,
(12:50):
sleeping bags, sleeping on theground, hopping trains,
hitchhiking, and it was a timein my life that I've never
really talked about much.
So I put it in a story that'scompletely autobiographical,
except that I added a bankrobbery and a murder.
It did not happen.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
All right, that's pretty good.
Well, what else can I add?
How about a bank robbery and amurder?
I can only imagine.
Now, obviously, these aredifferent times.
This is a different era whenyou're hitchhiking and riding in
trains and all that differentera when you're hitchhiking and
riding the trains and all that,uh.
But I I can only imagine, uh,that the there's got to be some,
because I did a littlehitchhiking in the 70s, you know
(13:30):
, and I I'll tell you what itwas scary.
I can only imagine there's gotto be some stories.
Are you sharing some of thosestories within the book?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
like, oh, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, although you know,
uh, the thing that we, um, wedon't seem to understand, and
it's because of the way news ispresented to us everything is
safer now than it was in the 70s, but we don't know it because
we have a constant news andthings that are very, very rare
(14:00):
to happen, dangerous things wehear about constantly Mouse, we
think it's more dangerous.
It was actually more dangerousin the 70s and more dangerous
was not very dangerous.
I mean, yes, I had adventuresand yes, there were many scary
things.
Hopping a train alone is veryscary, but you know, I got to if
(14:23):
anything.
all the hitchhiking and all theliving on the streets got me
very much trusting people andbeing more open.
Being from a small town youtend to be rather insular and
living in kind of all the UnitedStates at once kind of opened
(14:44):
me up and also got me to learnto perform.
You know, I was a very goodjuggler by the time I got out of
high school.
Notice, I don't use the wordgraduated.
By the time I got out of highschool I was a very good juggler
and so I had to learn toperform and present that.
And when you are juggling onthe streets for people who can
(15:04):
just walk away and you'rejuggling in front of bands where
no one wants to see you, youlearn how to get people's
attention and hold it and Ithink I believe that served me
fairly well over the next 50years.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
We're talking with Penn Gillette.
He's got a new book, felonyJuggler.
He is going to be at the 4th ofAugust, 7pm, capital Books in
Sacramento.
Check out Capital Books oncapecom if you want to get
tickets to this, which is.
I love that you're coming toour area as a street performer.
You're talking about theseyears as a street performer, you
(15:43):
know.
I think most people might havethe thought that yo, he's a
street performer, and this is aperson who's desperate, you know
.
You imagine a guy with asuitcase out there and people
throwing coins in there.
Truth is, though, as Iunderstand it, you, like you
were blowing people away duringthis time, money-wise, like you
were doing just fine.
Thank you right, isn't that?
Oh yeah that's.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
You know that?
That's the funny thing.
Um, when I was uh, when I wasuh going off broadway to
broadway, I would get all theseinterviews and like people
magazine and stuff saying youknow, you went from street
performing to uh, to offbroadway and I guess, uh, that
must have been a huge change.
You must have been strugglingand the you must have been
struggling and the truth of thematter is I was actually making
(16:27):
more money juggling on thestreets than I did off Broadway.
It wasn't until we got toBroadway that we crossed that
amount.
So I was doing very, very well.
I was.
Everything was by choice, andthat's why you might notice that
I've avoided using the wordhomeless in my hitchhiking
around, because I was not peoplethat are.
(16:49):
I was a teenager, I was healthy, I was sober, I had money and I
was just choosing to not livesomewhere, and that's a very,
very different thing.
I don't want to bedisrespectful to those who are
having a very hard time.
It's a very different thingthan what I was doing.
(17:09):
Mine was playful, recreational.
I had parents that would havewelcomed me back any second.
I talked to them all the timeon the phone.
I was very loved.
I was very taken care of.
I just didn't want to stay inGreenfield, massachusetts, right
, right loved.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I was very taken care of.
I just didn't want to stay ingreenfield, massachusetts, right
, right, geez, you move out ofmassachusetts and look at this
incredible career.
Then you meet teller, who Ibelieve his name was originally,
is it?
I mean, I think he actuallychanged his name to teller, is
it joe teller?
Is that his actual?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
name.
No, no, that's his father, buthe's just teller.
He's just teller.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Passport it's just Teller His passport.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It's his passport, his driver's license, all his
documentation is just Teller.
He's always wanted to have thatone name.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Well, you know what I ?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
But Joe was his dad.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Okay, okay, you know, one thing I appreciate about
you so much and there's a lot ofthings that I appreciate about
you is the fact that you knowyou're not really a political
guy.
You're not polarizing that way.
You know you chose to live yourlife in a very you know clean
way in terms of no drugs andthings like that.
I really, truly admire that.
(18:14):
I admire the fact that you arean incredible magician one of
the best I have ever seen in mylife, the fact that you are an
author all of these things.
You're extremely talented.
You at one point went to clowncollege.
Now I happen to be maybe I'mthe last person in the world
Penn that appreciates a clown.
Whatever happened to clowns?
(18:35):
Why does everyone seem to hateclowns these days?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I mean, I know they're in movies.
We can blame John Wayne, gacyand Stephen King, I think I
don't know.
You know clowns were.
I was never particularly good,you know, I was always too
verbal, you know.
Now we have.
And if you wonder what'shappening to clowns, we now have
one of the best.
(19:00):
I mean, puddle's Pity Party istaking some of the classic ideas
of clowning and putting ittogether beautifully with
wonderful singing and great wit.
But that idea, that idea of theoutsider represented with
grease paint in the symbolic,surrealistic environment, is
(19:24):
something that has been sodeeply usurped by movies and
television that it is kind of ananachronistic art form.
But if you're looking forsomebody that's doing clowning,
you have Puddle's Pity Party andthere's also a movie I have
coming out called the Big Whoop,which stars three fabulous
(19:50):
clowns out of LA.
So it still happens.
It still happens.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
It's funny you mention Puddles.
I mean, this guy is supertalented.
I don't even know how manypeople you know are aware of who
you're talking about, but he issuper talented.
He does a version of FolsomPrison Blues mixed with the who,
and it is just absolutelyphenomenal.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
He's been opening for Weird Al.
He just played Madden SquareGarden, so three nights at
Madden Square Garden.
A few people will be hearingabout puddles.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'm sure, that's great.
Well, pen pen gillette,everyone please go check him out
.
Like I said, uh, this is goingto be, uh, the 4th of august, 7
pm, capital books.
I really appreciate the timeand I really appreciate the
conversation today and I thankyou for that wonderful talking
to you, man.
All right, thank you, you toobye-bye, pen gillette's felony
(20:46):
juggler a quote, mostly trueaccount of the pen and teller
magician's life story.
And again, he's going to becoming to capital books in
sacramento.
Uh, this is going to be thefourth of august, 7 pm, and if
you like tickets, go tocapitalbooksonkcom.
You'll get your tickets rightthere and it looks like we might
(21:09):
be giving away some tickets,okay, on my radio show, the Pat
Walsh Show on KFPK Radio.
So if that's the case, we'll bestarting that here this evening
.
So, as I'm thinking, as I wrapit up and I do appreciate his
time I'm thinking like what songcomes to mind first?
What Is it?
(21:30):
Frank Zappa?
No, no, no, even though wetalked about Frank no, no, no,
no.
Or Varese, or Stravinsky?
No, no, no, no, no.
Or what could it be?
A magic, of course.
We didn't really talk that muchmagic right there, by the way.
So I'm going to play this song,which is not.
I do have this in my recordcollection, my rare 45s, but
(21:57):
this is not from there.
I would have had to gone overthere because now they're kind
of out of order.
So I'm being honest with you,like I always am, and I I did
not go out and pluck this frommy record collections.
I'm just going to pull this oneup because I'm thinking all
right, what song is going tocome to mind first when it comes
into magic and things like that?
It could be so many differentsongs, but the first one that
pops into my mind in regards tomagic is a song that was used
(22:23):
and abused, in my opinion, on TV.
So much so did it just.
Of course, I'm not going to sayit makes me mad, but they just
ruined it, and this started in2018.
I would imagine that there arepeople who know the original
(22:44):
song and when they think of theoriginal song, even if they like
it or even if they don't likeit, whatever, I like it.
It's very commercial, it's verypop, it's from the 70s, but even
as I think a 15-, uh, 14 or 15year old, I still liked it.
But then they start using it ina tv commercial.
You know what I'm talking about, right, I bet you do.
(23:07):
Pharmaceutical company NovoNovo Nordisk, in 2018, began
using this song in its ads forthis now wildly popular product
that is being used for ways thatit was not intentionally used
for to begin with.
But this is an injectable drug.
Can you imagine you sell out tothis drug company?
(23:29):
I mean, if you need money?
I mean, you only had one hit,they only had one hit.
So I can't necessarily blamethem for making millions of
dollars for selling out here Ireally can't, but it just kind
of.
In a way, it didn't ruin thesong, but it makes you think of
this, and people who don't knowthe original probably don't even
know there was a song that hadthe.
There was an original, it was areal song.
(23:50):
They just know this ad or thisjingle, whatever you want to
call it.
But this is an injectable drugwhich is originally intended for
people with type 2 diabetes,which became very popular for
its off label use as a weightloss drug.
You know I'm talking aboutozempic.
David payton was asked to returnto the abbey road studios to
(24:10):
record a new version of the songwhich, from a vocal standpoint,
is a little more than hissinging the opening line
replacing words it's magic, withozempic otherwise adding
nonverbal singing.
So after all of these years andthis is since 1974, he goes in
(24:39):
and recuts this.
So when you hear that, oh, oh,oh, oh, zampik, that's the same
guy just went and recut it.
But this is the original and itjust seemed appropriate for
Penn and Teller.
Penn Jillette.
Thank you for listening toPat's Peeps.
206.
(25:00):
See you on the radio.
Make that 306, not 206, 306.
I'm not going to sell myselfshort like that.
(25:31):
Cleaning on my pillow in themorning.
Lazy day in bed, music in myhead, crazy music playing in the
morning light.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Oh, oh, oh.
It's magic, you know, Neverbelieve it's not so.
It's magic, you know, neverbelieve it's not so.
Welcome my friends to the Pats Peeps podcast number
306.
It's a Mondayay, july 28th, andas I look out my studio windows
into the beautiful foothills ofnorthern california, it's a
lovely day and again not as hotas you would see this time of
(00:38):
year in july absolutely amazing.
My name is pat walsh.
I'm the host of the Pat WalshShow, as heard on KFBK Radio in
Sacramento, 93.1 FM, 1530 AM,streaming live everywhere on all
of your streaming platforms,including, of course, the
iHeartRadio platform.
We are owned by iHeart there.
(00:59):
So, yeah, check out my show ifyou have not.
Also, we are now going to startasking you every single time,
because we're getting more andmore businesses that I'm going
to ask you to please, please,support our businesses.
Just do yourself a favor, justgo to patspeepscom.
If we can get the othercomponent of this business going
(01:20):
, it would be so helpful to meand to all of these businesses
and mostly important to you,because for you, what it means
is that you're going to savemoney on local businesses.
Since we had our Pats Peepsgathering a few nights ago, I've
got three or four newbusinesses that we're going to
be putting up, so we're gettingall kinds of different types of
businesses.
You know, and pretty soonyou're going to see more and
(01:42):
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We got a little mall.
It's the Pat's Peeps mall.
So just type in patspeepscomand look at our little mall.
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(02:04):
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learn more about them.
So I'm very excited.
Speaking of excited, today hereon Pat's Peeps 306, we have a
special guest.
I've really been enjoyinglately bringing in special
guests.
You know, what's happening isI'm now getting people asking me
(02:28):
versus me saying, hey, you knowI'm looking for this person.
They're now asking me how wouldyou like to have this person on
your podcast?
We enjoy your podcast, thankyou, the latest being Penn
Jillette of Penn and Teller someof the greatest magicians ever
and I had the opportunity tospeak with Penn Gillette.
He's got a new book out FelonyJuggler.
(02:50):
He's coming to Sacramento andwe thought, you know what, let's
have him on the show.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Hello, this is Penn.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Penn, what a pleasure to meet you, man.
I'm doing fine.
Thank you very much for asking.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
How are you today?
I'm doing fine.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Thank you very much for asking.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I'm doing well.
Thank you, I'm doing well.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I love that you're coming to town.
I guess you know Mark S Allenpretty well, huh.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Yeah, well, I used to introduce him a lot on Comedy
Central, so that's ourconnection there.
He did Short Attention, spamTheater and I was always the
voice of Comedy Central in thosedays.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Oh, and that's right.
I remember you were the voiceof Comedy Central.
Yeah, whatever happened withthat?
As we're talking with PennJillette of Penn Teller, I've
got so many things.
What happened to the ComedyCentral gig?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Well, it was a one-year job, job that went
eight years, so it went prettywell.
I I made it through um threechanges of management, which is
not bad, and by that time it wasmostly in new york and by that
time I'd moved out to vegas doit?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
does everyone that you that interviews, you have as
a conversation with you?
Do they give you the standardintro?
Do you know your standard introthat I was given?
I could do that.
I have a better intro, but Ihave the standard intro.
If you'd like to hear that, dowhatever you want.
Ladies and gentlemen, here's thestandard intro for this man who
I've been a fan of, and I'vegot a little quick story I want
to share with you too bengillette joining us, who is just
(04:22):
a super cool guy, by the way,who, with Penn and Teller, have
now had the longest residency Imean, I know you hear that all
the time in Las Vegas.
So here's our intro.
Our guest tonight is half ofone of the most legendary magic
duos on the planet.
An author, a podcaster, a manwho's made skepticism cooler
than pulling a rabbit out of thehat.
He's fooled audiences, fooledmagiciansians and somehow
(04:44):
convinced us he doesn't talk toomuch, despite writing a brand
new book called felony juggleruh, please welcome.
Also known, the one that talksis pen gillette, or, as I like
to say, the former drummer ofloud hate.
That's where you probably knowwell, thank you.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Thank you for the uh, for the introduction yeah,
certainly you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I you know one thing I love about you and I could, we
could talk about the fact thatyou are coming, your new book,
welcome.
One thing I love about you andwe can talk about the fact that
you are coming, your new book.
You're going to be here andyou're going to be in Sacramento
, capital Books.
You're going to be signing yourbooks the Felony Juggler, which
is a portion of your life,which is super interesting, that
I want to talk about that and Ijust think it's really cool
that you wrote about this.
(05:23):
It's going to be happening onthe 4th of August, 7 pm, capital
Books, here in Sacramento.
You know, one thing I knowabout you is that you and I
started with the drummer thingbecause I know you're a fan of
music.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, I'm a big fan.
I play upright bass.
I'm mostly playing jazz now.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Oh well, you know, I think, that you and I have
something in common in terms ofmusic and that is a fondness for
that you'd hear like theaverage white band, and it
(06:05):
really exposed us, I think thoseof us who love music like you
do.
It exposed us to so manydifferent genres of music.
How important was that to youwhen you were growing up?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Oh, that was very, very important.
I mean also all the Motownstuff, and James Brown was just
mixed in with, you know, withstuff, all the 70s not as much,
but stuff like the Beatles andyou know the Eagles were on the
same, you know the same radiostation as Soul.
(06:39):
And we've broken down ourdemographics.
You know my children are 19 and20.
And music to them is targetedso exactly, even though we have
now the Internet which gives usaccess to all music.
(07:00):
I mean, when I was growing up ina small town I had to like
order Edgar Barret's, you know20th century classical weird
stuff, stravinsky I had to orderand then wait weeks.
The Lenny Bruce records I hadto wait for.
You know I could get the stuffthat was more mainstream, which
(07:21):
is to say like the Mother'sInvention and so on.
But it's remarkable that whatwe have available to us is so
much greater and yet what wehave desire for has been made
more limited.
They've done so much in ourculture and I think part of the
(07:44):
fault of this is the internetgetting so good at learning
about us that even though wehave more available to us, we
tend to stay even tighter withinour group, and I think that's
doing a lot of damage musically,culturally, all of art and
certainly all of politics, andsociety has broken it down.
(08:07):
So there's even more lonelinessand less expansiveness and I
think it'll turn around, but itmight take a while.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, I mean those are very good points.
And, as you're saying, vareseand Stravinsky, I'm thinking I
wonder if he's a Zappa fan.
And then you say Mothers ofAdventure Like I'm a huge Frank
fan.
And when you said those namesI'm like I wonder if he's a
Zappa fan.
And then you say Mothers ofInvention Like I'm a huge Frank
fan.
And when you said those namesI'm like oh, those are both
Frank influences big time.
And then you mentioned theMothers of Invention, which,
well, I was fortunate.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
I was fortunate to have.
I did not know him well, but Ihad dinner and spent a rather
long evening with Frank and itwas a wonderful experience to
talk music with Frank and heplayed me some stuff.
It was pretty great.
I know Moon a little bit nowand we get to talk about her dad
(08:56):
, so that's nice.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, I've had the opportunity to speak with
Dweezil on numerous occasionsand introduce his band.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Oh yeah, he's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
He's such a good guy I mean, this guy is so caring
about his fans, Penn, that hesits there and he signs
autographs until there's no oneleft out there and I could just
tell you were a music fan.
So I really hope you don't mindthat I started with that rather
than magic, Not at all.
You know, if I may share a story.
This is so funny.
This is probably that's notreally funny, but it was
(09:27):
interesting to me.
So, um, I don't know, maybe it's20 years ago, something like
that a buddy and I were up insouth lake tahoe and we decide
you know, hey, we're going to goto this brunch, and we so we
hear that harrah's has a verygood brunch, and you got to go
up the elevator to one of thetop floors I don't remember how
high up there was and on thisparticular morning the brunch
was very full, a lot of peopleand they said, well, we have a
(09:48):
table in the back, and so theytake us back to this back area
and sitting right next to myfriend and I are Penn and Teller
.
And I look at my friend and I gothis is Penn and Teller, and
we're the only ones in this area, and we were sitting there and
we were so fascinated by thefact that it was you guys and
(10:10):
and that teller was speaking.
You were having thisconversation and I remember us
thinking, wow, how many of otherpeople have really even heard
him speak?
Uh, so that was a fond memorythat you were unaware of, but I
have in my mind.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Well, you know, that's actually fairly rare
because, you know, teller and Icare very much about our show
but we don't socialize veryoften, so it's very rare.
We probably eat a meal together, maybe, you know, four or five
times a year.
Whoa, so that was a.
(10:45):
You really caught us on a rareoccasion.
But yeah, we're still goingstrong.
You know 50 years and we'restill banging out the shows.
Bob Dylan said me.
I'm still on the road headingfor another joint.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Which let's get into your book, which I just love.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ithink this is like a time of
your life, maybe when you were alate teenager somewhere, I
don't know 17, 18 years old, andyou're kind of living
vicariously, in a way, throughBob Dylan music, and here you
are thinking you're living thislifestyle that Bob Dylan would
(11:26):
love and he's telling the worldhe's living this lifestyle and
this is the segment of time thatyou're writing about in your
new book.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, you know, bob went from the University of
Minnesota to spokesperson forhis generation in about six
months and he was asked to writea quick bio for his first
record and he said that hehitchhiked around the country
and hopped trains and worked incarnivals.
(11:56):
And he made all this up becauseall he'd really ever done was,
you know, been at his father'shardware store and been to
Minnesota, to college, toMinneapolis, and you know he met
Woody and he did a little bitof traveling, but very little.
But I read that and didn't knowthat Bob had made it up.
(12:16):
So I lived it.
I actually did hop trains, Iactually did hitchhike, I
actually did work carnivals andfor years I thought I was
following in Bob Dylan'sfootsteps and he just made it up
.
So if you read about what BobDylan did in his early days,
that is years that I lived, justyou know, sleeping rough,
(12:50):
sleeping bags, sleeping on theground, hopping trains,
hitchhiking, and it was a timein my life that I've never
really talked about much.
So I put it in a story that'scompletely autobiographical,
except that I added a bankrobbery and a murder.
It did not happen.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
All right, that's pretty good.
Well, what else can I add?
How about a bank robbery and amurder?
I can only imagine.
Now, obviously, these aredifferent times.
This is a different era whenyou're hitchhiking and riding in
trains and all that differentera when you're hitchhiking and
riding the trains and all that,uh.
But I I can only imagine, uh,that the there's got to be some,
because I did a littlehitchhiking in the 70s, you know
(13:30):
, and I I'll tell you what itwas scary.
I can only imagine there's gotto be some stories.
Are you sharing some of thosestories within the book?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
like, oh, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, although you know,
uh, the thing that we, um, wedon't seem to understand, and
it's because of the way news ispresented to us everything is
safer now than it was in the 70s, but we don't know it because
we have a constant news andthings that are very, very rare
(14:00):
to happen, dangerous things wehear about constantly Mouse, we
think it's more dangerous.
It was actually more dangerousin the 70s and more dangerous
was not very dangerous.
I mean, yes, I had adventuresand yes, there were many scary
things.
Hopping a train alone is veryscary, but you know, I got to if
(14:23):
anything.
all the hitchhiking and all theliving on the streets got me
very much trusting people andbeing more open.
Being from a small town youtend to be rather insular and
living in kind of all the UnitedStates at once kind of opened
(14:44):
me up and also got me to learnto perform.
You know, I was a very goodjuggler by the time I got out of
high school.
Notice, I don't use the wordgraduated.
By the time I got out of highschool I was a very good juggler
and so I had to learn toperform and present that.
And when you are juggling onthe streets for people who can
(15:04):
just walk away and you'rejuggling in front of bands where
no one wants to see you, youlearn how to get people's
attention and hold it and Ithink I believe that served me
fairly well over the next 50years.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
We're talking with Penn Gillette.
He's got a new book, felonyJuggler.
He is going to be at the 4th ofAugust, 7pm, capital Books in
Sacramento.
Check out Capital Books oncapecom if you want to get
tickets to this, which is.
I love that you're coming toour area as a street performer.
You're talking about theseyears as a street performer, you
(15:43):
know.
I think most people might havethe thought that yo, he's a
street performer, and this is aperson who's desperate, you know
.
You imagine a guy with asuitcase out there and people
throwing coins in there.
Truth is, though, as Iunderstand it, you, like you
were blowing people away duringthis time, money-wise, like you
were doing just fine.
Thank you right, isn't that?
Oh yeah that's.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
You know that?
That's the funny thing.
Um, when I was uh, when I wasuh going off broadway to
broadway, I would get all theseinterviews and like people
magazine and stuff saying youknow, you went from street
performing to uh, to offbroadway and I guess, uh, that
must have been a huge change.
You must have been strugglingand the you must have been
struggling and the truth of thematter is I was actually making
(16:27):
more money juggling on thestreets than I did off Broadway.
It wasn't until we got toBroadway that we crossed that
amount.
So I was doing very, very well.
I was.
Everything was by choice, andthat's why you might notice that
I've avoided using the wordhomeless in my hitchhiking
around, because I was not peoplethat are.
(16:49):
I was a teenager, I was healthy, I was sober, I had money and I
was just choosing to not livesomewhere, and that's a very,
very different thing.
I don't want to bedisrespectful to those who are
having a very hard time.
It's a very different thingthan what I was doing.
(17:09):
Mine was playful, recreational.
I had parents that would havewelcomed me back any second.
I talked to them all the timeon the phone.
I was very loved.
I was very taken care of.
I just didn't want to stay inGreenfield, massachusetts, right
, right loved.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I was very taken care of.
I just didn't want to stay ingreenfield, massachusetts, right
, right, geez, you move out ofmassachusetts and look at this
incredible career.
Then you meet teller, who Ibelieve his name was originally,
is it?
I mean, I think he actuallychanged his name to teller, is
it joe teller?
Is that his actual?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
name.
No, no, that's his father, buthe's just teller.
He's just teller.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Passport it's just Teller His passport.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It's his passport, his driver's license, all his
documentation is just Teller.
He's always wanted to have thatone name.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Well, you know what I ?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
But Joe was his dad.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Okay, okay, you know, one thing I appreciate about
you so much and there's a lot ofthings that I appreciate about
you is the fact that you knowyou're not really a political
guy.
You're not polarizing that way.
You know you chose to live yourlife in a very you know clean
way in terms of no drugs andthings like that.
I really, truly admire that.
(18:14):
I admire the fact that you arean incredible magician one of
the best I have ever seen in mylife, the fact that you are an
author all of these things.
You're extremely talented.
You at one point went to clowncollege.
Now I happen to be maybe I'mthe last person in the world
Penn that appreciates a clown.
Whatever happened to clowns?
(18:35):
Why does everyone seem to hateclowns these days?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
I mean, I know they're in movies.
We can blame John Wayne, gacyand Stephen King, I think I
don't know.
You know clowns were.
I was never particularly good,you know, I was always too
verbal, you know.
Now we have.
And if you wonder what'shappening to clowns, we now have
one of the best.
(19:00):
I mean, puddle's Pity Party istaking some of the classic ideas
of clowning and putting ittogether beautifully with
wonderful singing and great wit.
But that idea, that idea of theoutsider represented with
grease paint in the symbolic,surrealistic environment, is
(19:24):
something that has been sodeeply usurped by movies and
television that it is kind of ananachronistic art form.
But if you're looking forsomebody that's doing clowning,
you have Puddle's Pity Party andthere's also a movie I have
coming out called the Big Whoop,which stars three fabulous
(19:50):
clowns out of LA.
So it still happens.
It still happens.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
It's funny you mention Puddles.
I mean, this guy is supertalented.
I don't even know how manypeople you know are aware of who
you're talking about, but he issuper talented.
He does a version of FolsomPrison Blues mixed with the who,
and it is just absolutelyphenomenal.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
He's been opening for Weird Al.
He just played Madden SquareGarden, so three nights at
Madden Square Garden.
A few people will be hearingabout puddles.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'm sure, that's great.
Well, pen pen gillette,everyone please go check him out
.
Like I said, uh, this is goingto be, uh, the 4th of august, 7
pm, capital books.
I really appreciate the timeand I really appreciate the
conversation today and I thankyou for that wonderful talking
to you, man.
All right, thank you, you toobye-bye, pen gillette's felony
(20:46):
juggler a quote, mostly trueaccount of the pen and teller
magician's life story.
And again, he's going to becoming to capital books in
sacramento.
Uh, this is going to be thefourth of august, 7 pm, and if
you like tickets, go tocapitalbooksonkcom.
You'll get your tickets rightthere and it looks like we might
(21:09):
be giving away some tickets,okay, on my radio show, the Pat
Walsh Show on KFPK Radio.
So if that's the case, we'll bestarting that here this evening
.
So, as I'm thinking, as I wrapit up and I do appreciate his
time I'm thinking like what songcomes to mind first?
What Is it?
(21:30):
Frank Zappa?
No, no, no, even though wetalked about Frank no, no, no,
no.
Or Varese, or Stravinsky?
No, no, no, no, no.
Or what could it be?
A magic, of course.
We didn't really talk that muchmagic right there, by the way.
So I'm going to play this song,which is not.
I do have this in my recordcollection, my rare 45s, but
(21:57):
this is not from there.
I would have had to gone overthere because now they're kind
of out of order.
So I'm being honest with you,like I always am, and I I did
not go out and pluck this frommy record collections.
I'm just going to pull this oneup because I'm thinking all
right, what song is going tocome to mind first when it comes
into magic and things like that?
It could be so many differentsongs, but the first one that
pops into my mind in regards tomagic is a song that was used
(22:23):
and abused, in my opinion, on TV.
So much so did it just.
Of course, I'm not going to sayit makes me mad, but they just
ruined it, and this started in2018.
I would imagine that there arepeople who know the original
(22:44):
song and when they think of theoriginal song, even if they like
it or even if they don't likeit, whatever, I like it.
It's very commercial, it's verypop, it's from the 70s, but even
as I think a 15-, uh, 14 or 15year old, I still liked it.
But then they start using it ina tv commercial.
You know what I'm talking about, right, I bet you do.
(23:07):
Pharmaceutical company NovoNovo Nordisk, in 2018, began
using this song in its ads forthis now wildly popular product
that is being used for ways thatit was not intentionally used
for to begin with.
But this is an injectable drug.
Can you imagine you sell out tothis drug company?
(23:29):
I mean, if you need money?
I mean, you only had one hit,they only had one hit.
So I can't necessarily blamethem for making millions of
dollars for selling out here Ireally can't, but it just kind
of.
In a way, it didn't ruin thesong, but it makes you think of
this, and people who don't knowthe original probably don't even
know there was a song that hadthe.
There was an original, it was areal song.
(23:50):
They just know this ad or thisjingle, whatever you want to
call it.
But this is an injectable drugwhich is originally intended for
people with type 2 diabetes,which became very popular for
its off label use as a weightloss drug.
You know I'm talking aboutozempic.
David payton was asked to returnto the abbey road studios to
(24:10):
record a new version of the songwhich, from a vocal standpoint,
is a little more than hissinging the opening line
replacing words it's magic, withozempic otherwise adding
nonverbal singing.
So after all of these years andthis is since 1974, he goes in
(24:39):
and recuts this.
So when you hear that, oh, oh,oh, oh, zampik, that's the same
guy just went and recut it.
But this is the original and itjust seemed appropriate for
Penn and Teller.
Penn Jillette.
Thank you for listening toPat's Peeps.
206.
(25:00):
See you on the radio.
Make that 306, not 206, 306.
I'm not going to sell myselfshort like that.
(25:31):
Cleaning on my pillow in themorning.
Lazy day in bed, music in myhead, crazy music playing in the
morning light.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Oh, oh, oh.
It's magic, you know, Neverbelieve it's not so.
It's magic, you know, neverbelieve it's not so.
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