Have you ever thought of buildings as a cinematic experience? Have you considered how architecture is used to welcome people into a space, to promote healing, or to narrate important stories through memorial? This week we’re exploring how the design of our built environments can improve health outcomes and impact our social systems with Michael Murphy of MASS Design, the firm named 2020 Architecture Innovator by Wall Street Journal.
This week's episode features Michael Murphy, Founding Principal and Executive Director at MASS Design Group, an architecture and design firm geared towards improving social equity and health outcomes through design innovation.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
We are experiencing a paradigm shift, a fundamental
change in the way we usually dothings.
We are intentionally choosing tosee the silver lining
opportunity arises.
We can shine a light on thethings that weren't working well
(00:25):
on those things that weren'treally working at all, we can
regroup reevaluate andre-engineer it's time to explore
new patterns and paradigms thosethat inspire us to rise above
the chaos and explore how theconditions of today and take us
(00:47):
to a better tomorrow patternsand paradigms the pattern
podcast from Hudson Valleypattern for progress.
You're listening to season two,episode two, the architecture of
healing and social equity withyour host pattern, president and
CEO, Jonathan, Dropkin
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Welcome to another episode of our podcast.
We hope you enjoyed DianaMason's discussion on where we
are with the war on COVIDcommunity health and other
important issues.
Especially a shout out to thenurses in the frontline.
This week, we pivot toarchitecture.
(01:29):
Joining us is Hudson Valleynative Michael Murphy, the
founder of the mass design groupto listen to our podcast.
All you need to do is continueto subscribe and download
patterns and paradigms whereveryou find your favorite podcasts,
such as Apple, Amazon music,Spotify, and Google.
(01:51):
If you have any ideas for futuretopics and episodes, please send
them to pattern forprogress.org/podcast.
So I was trying to think ofwhere do I want to go for the
next big thing?
And it's sort of like, it's notthe next, but it's definitely
(02:15):
time to reinterpret the deliveryof broadband.
We have learned throughout thepandemic of the critical need
for equal access to broadband,whether it is for remote work,
Calla medicine, online learning,and so much more broadband has
moved from a luxury to witness.
(02:38):
Essity just like electricity.
The goal needs to create theinfrastructure and regulation to
ensure that this actuallyhappens, that everyone has
access to it.
Defining being served is a falsepremise.
How many days are you on yourinternet?
(02:59):
And you're trying to have ameeting or a phone call, and it
is this rough right in themiddle.
You're hanging on a word and yougot to call the person back.
The sun is shining outside.
There's not a cloud in the sky.
Why does this happen?
Or for the family that cannotafford the cost of the internet
(03:22):
or to the family that is told topay for the last mile to carry
broadband to their rural home,the pattern is clear.
The post COVID world can nolonger be divided into the have
and have nots when it comes tobroadband.
What comes next is yet to bedetermined, but we hope all of
(03:45):
our listeners join us andsaying, it's not a luxury.
It's a necessity.
Before I introduce Michael,let's ask Joe Cheika what's up,
Joe, Joe, we had a couple ofgood mentions this week.
Maybe you can elaborate for ourlisteners, just what they were
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Sure we did.
Uh, it's always nice to get goodfeedback on our work.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It is.
I mean, you know, often we workand, you know, we, we deliver
the product, but these are someexceptions that made us all feel
pretty good.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
They, they did.
And the beauty of working withour clients, if you will, is
that we go back and forth withtheir feedback, with our input.
And we come out with a product.
I think that we're both happywith, and that takes a little
extra time.
And I think that's thedifference between us and a lot
of other groups is that wereally incorporate what they're
(04:41):
feeling, what they're doing, whow they know and understand
their audiences.
So, for example, up in the cityof Kingston, we had been working
with them for a good nine or 10months on a project that was
really designed to understandwhat their vacant and abandoned
properties were like in the city, uh, in terms of one, two and
(05:05):
three family homes.
And so we did a lot of fieldwork, uh, actually during COVID,
we were socially distanced.
We went out and wore our masks,and we did a lot of windshield
surveys from the vehicle andwalking around the
neighborhoods.
And we found that the vacantproperties in the city of
Kingston, majority of the one tofour family homes are wooden
(05:27):
structures, but they're not inreally terrible shape, which is
a good thing for a city.
And by the end of, at the end ofthe day, at the end of the
study, we created a series ofrecommendations for them, eight,
eight recommendations.
In fact, and the city mayor,Steve noble, he actually brought
(05:49):
up the fact that we did thestudy in his state of the city
address.
And it was very rewarding for,for our entire team at pattern.
And, um, there were some reallygood recommendations.
I got to say that we came upwith a few of them, they're
going to be putting into place.
Um, so that, that's a reallygood, positive feedback that we
(06:10):
got from the city.
Another good piece ofinformation that we got back was
, uh, from the city of Hudsonway up in Columbia County, uh,
back about three years ago, wedid a series of community
engagement sessions and workingwith a local housing task force.
And we developed something upthere called the strategic
(06:31):
housing action plan, the Shap,if you will.
And that's right where we try toget our acronyms.
So it's kind of a fun thing tosay.
So with the Shap in hand, thecommunity, the city went to a
national organization calledenterprise.
(06:52):
They used our, our study, ourrecommendations as a foundation
to apply for additional dollarsto get our recommendations
actually funded.
And lo and behold, they weresuccessful.
They just received a$1 milliongrant for anti-displacement
(07:13):
activities in the city ofHudson.
They are going to be able tofund a brand new staff position
to help coordinate the efforts,which was a major lacking part
of their system delivery in thecity.
So again, our work setting, thefoundation, our recommendations
(07:33):
really move our work forward inthose communities.
So it's very rewarding to see,and I'm, uh, I'm really looking
forward to actually continuingour work in the city of Houghton
.
They, uh, they're going to haveus start a affordable housing
development plan, which we'rekicking off probably in about a
(07:53):
month and that's going to helpthem identify three, four, maybe
five developable sites forhousing right there in the city.
And so it's rewarding.
And I got to say thesecommunities, they're very
progressive in what they'redoing, and it's good.
It's a good thing to see here inthe Hudson Valley.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Thanks, Joe.
I appreciate you explainingthese things.
They often, you know, could gounnoticed, but it is part of the
infrastructure of thesecommunities, the work that you,
the team of pattern are doing,uh, in order to ensure in this
case housing, which has become,I can't remember in our 14 years
(08:36):
together where this is been astop of mind, the need for
affordable and workforce housingas it is now.
And, and for all the years thatyou have been laying the
foundation for this, um, kudosto you that it is not just being
recognized, but that actuallysome funding absolutely.
(08:57):
Sounds good.
All right, Joe, thanks.
And now on to our guests,Michael Murphy is the executive
director of the mass designgroup, an architecture firm that
leverages buildings as part ofthe design and construction
process to become engines forhealth economic growth and
(09:18):
longterm sustainability.
Michael sits on the boards ofthe Clinton global initiative
advisory committee, the Harvardgraduate school of design alumni
board, the center for healthcaredesign and is an expert in
residents at the Harvardinnovation lab.
(09:39):
Michael is a true visionary, adisruptor before the word became
common.
And most importantly, he hailsfrom Poughkeepsie New York,
Michael, welcome to the podcast.
How you doing?
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Hey, Jonathan.
Nice to be here.
Thanks.
Thanks for this.
I'm I'm doing, uh, okay.
All things considered.
I know that's probably theanswer of a lot of people, but,
uh, you know, we're in a uniquemoment in time and, uh, we're
surviving okay.
Both in my family and at thefirm, but thanks for asking.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Um, sure.
Um, and just on the, from one ofthe things about your firm,
that's so interesting is thatyou have offices all over the
world.
So you were almost, you didn'thave to pivot, you've been
pivoting for years.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Well, and in terms of the, in terms of the zoom
worlds, we, um, if you want tocall it that we have been
working remotely with teamsdispersed across, across the
globe, uh, historically, sothere, wasn't an incredibly
difficult pivot for us to kindof can be completely online.
Although I would say that Icertainly miss, um, connecting
(10:47):
with my team in person.
Um, and you know, I typicallytravel an enormous amount, uh,
especially to project sites andto see the teams and we haven't
been able to do that.
So, um, you know, I am reallylooking forward to the end of
this and being able to workagain with the, you know, my
team and the communities that wework with and just really be in
(11:08):
person has been reallydifferent.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Cool.
I think there's a, you have alot of company there.
So, um, so let me just start bysaying, so it was, uh, last
month in December, I, uh, openup a wall street journal, the
weekend edition, they have theirannual innovators, uh, special
(11:31):
section and there you are.
And I was just, it was anincredible piece.
I learned so much more, I thinkI know a bit about mass design,
but I learned so much more.
How did that come about?
And were you excited?
Pleased?
What, what was your reaction?
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Yeah, I mean, it was an incredible honor and we were
really, really kind of shockedand humbled when we got the
email over the summer, um, thatthey had chosen us as their
architect of the year incrediblecompany.
Um, people we really admireDarren Walker and Titus Kaphar
and, um, just incredible,incredible folks to be in that
(12:14):
company.
So it was a really nice, a niceshock and, um, a pleasant, um,
email to, to open in the middleof this pandemic.
You know, I think it's been,it's been a difficult year to
know if how architects andarchitectural discipline and the
practice is going to survive ifwe're going to see significant
economic downturn.
(12:34):
And, um, if that might affect alot of building projects, um,
but you know, actually we'veseen the opposite.
We've seen growth and a lot ofdemand for new projects.
We've seen incredible effort tokeep a building projects going.
And, uh, and then just a lot offocus on the, on the, on the
role of infection control thatwe have been thinking about for
a long time.
So it was, it was, you know, wewere very appreciative of that
(12:58):
kind of attention and, and, um,and really enjoyed the process
going through it.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So one of the first things in the article was that
at the beginning of COVID, youwere actually called upon by
various organizations to helpthem with the redesign.
I guess one was a homeless groupup in Boston.
Uh, one was one of the majorhospitals that in New York city.
(13:22):
Um, so that you've actually beendirectly using your
architectural skills as a wayfor other organizations to adapt
to the COVID world.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Well, I mean, you know, we've, our organization
began, uh, with thinking aboutdesign's role in addressing
epidemic airborne disease.
In the case of, uh, where we,our first project was with the
organization partners in healthand the government of Rwanda
building a hospital that triedto mitigate and manage, um,
(13:58):
tuberculosis and multi-drugresistant tuberculosis and its
transmission it's airbornetransmission through simple
design measures, like, uh,natural ventilation, uh, careful
planning of, of, uh, uh, ofpatients and staff.
Um, UVG I lied.
So we've been thinking about,and working on infection control
(14:21):
for airborne disease since ourfounding.
So when COVID emerged, uh, andwe were had this experience, you
know, our partners that wealready had quickly reached out
to us recognizing that, Oh, wow,there's a whole spacial
reorganization.
That's necessary to address ourneeds as in a hospital with
(14:43):
serving our constituents.
And, you know, and mass hasexperienced doing that.
So, you know, we got right intoit and developed a lot of, um,
free guidelines to help so manyentities or at least help
organizations think about thespatial and physical
implications of infectioncontrol in any of building that
they might be within or bethinking about addressing.
(15:05):
So, uh, yeah, it happened reallyquickly and we continue to work
on reopening plans,reorganization plans, airflow
strategies, and helping entitiesthink about that today, redesign
their systems.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
It was just incredible to read that.
And they use that as the lead,obviously to connect to COVID.
Um, one of the things that Iespecially enjoy about mass
design is the way that you useyour architecture to invite
people into the space.
And it is something that, youknow, the photographs,
(15:42):
especially if some of thehealth-related facilities and in
Africa are, are just fascinatingto me.
I can, maybe you can help us onhow do you begin that design
process of saying here's acommunity, they have a need of
health, but we need them to notlook at it like a traditional
(16:02):
hospital.
It's somehow built into thelandscape, at least that's my,
you know, untrained, I lookingat it and saying, it's
welcoming.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Oh, thanks for saying that.
I, you know, and it sounds likeyou do have a really good
spacial sense Jones.
I know you do.
And, um, you know, I think theprocess really begins with the,
with the organization that we'retrying to serve and their
constituents, and they oftenhave the answers, uh, and the
kind of ideas that they arelooking to spatialize, but, you
(16:34):
know, need designers andarchitects to join them and
helping articulate that theythink they talk a lot about the
impact of the work, what it willbe.
And, um, architecture can helpaddress those broader impacts by
the way we experience it, youknow, in four dimensions.
So when you talk about welcomingpeople, you know, we think
really, uh, uh, you know, wethink a lot, uh, and quite
(17:00):
critically about what I wouldcall the threshold problem,
which is how do you create anenvironment which brings people
in at many different phases,brings them into a threshold and
allows them to understand theinfrastructure that brings them
further deeper into the space sothat they benefit from its, um,
from what's designed aroundthem.
And it allows them a way out.
I really think about buildingsas a kind of cinematic
(17:21):
experience.
Um, and each of those momentsare moments for information for
in the case of COVID like cleanair, uh, for, uh, creating
spaces that differentiatebetween let's say, contaminated
or clean spaces or anunderstanding why the building
is there and how it's supposedto serve us.
So, you know, I think if wethink about buildings as, as a
(17:43):
journey, every time you're goingthrough them, then the story of
a building, the story of a spaceis really the story of the
organization.
What's the story they're tryingto tell what's the agenda
they're trying to bring to theirconstituents and that, that kind
of narrative, uh, building, Ioften say as a narrative vessel
is how we think about the designthat needs to respond to their
overall aspirations.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Um, although we're dealing with a pandemic and
economic unrest, um, anddisruption, there's also been
something else that clearly tookplace over the, you know, in
2020.
And that was the social unrest.
And, and I would think that thisis a project that people would
run away from.
(18:27):
And yet you ran towards doingthis pre, um, the events of
2020,
Speaker 4 (18:37):
I would say we're always seeking out the thought
leaders and change agents whoare trying to tackle the hardest
issues.
And, um, we started conversationwhere, uh, we asked how we could
be of service.
It's incredible to seearchitecture, you know, be of
service for how we might rethinkmemorials in our communities.
(19:00):
Take down memorials, recognizethat memorialization is itself
fraught with political andsocial impacts and that the
design of the Memorial spaces ormonuments spaces around us is
not a neutral thing.
It's a very complex and, um,conflicted, uh, uh, set of
decisions about power and whodeserves to be recognized and
(19:21):
who deserves to be memorialized.
And so I've been thinking aboutthe role of memorials and
advancing questions of socialand economic and racial justice
before.
And I've been really encouragedby so many small grassroots
organizations who have asked howthey can change the Memorial
landscape of their own towns andtheir communities.
I've, you know, the Mellonfoundation has recently created
(19:43):
an entire fund dedicated tosupporting many of these
initiatives.
Um, so this kind of reckoningabout our national narrative and
who tells the story is longoverdue and what the events of
the last week is, uh, has takenon a new form itself about how
the history will be told.
And, uh, I think we'll be askingthis question for, for decades
(20:06):
to come.
Um, but I hope the work that'sable to be accomplished right
now in the next couple of years,while the attention is fixed on
this question could really be aprofound one to, uh, adjust and
not just adjust and change, butwrite the narrative of the
(20:28):
United States, right?
The narrative of our, of ourhistory and our future to be
more, uh, Johs more equitable,more true.
Um, and hopefully, um, come outof this a little bit better as a
nation,
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I had one experience building a museum, and that was
at Bethel woods at the side ofthe Woodstock festival.
And I got to work with a numberof architects and developing the
ability to tell the story of thesixties and how Woodstock fit
into it.
It is a complex process oftrying to understand what does
(21:05):
the client want?
What does the community wantyour place in history?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
No, we need to understand the history, but we
also need to feel the history.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I think one of the things that I learned about, you
know, at least telling the storyof the sixties is you wanted to
people that pass through thedoors of the museum, you wanted
them to come out for lack of abetter word move.
They needed to feel somethingthat was otherwise in a history
(21:36):
book.
So if I was to read you back,you know, a broad description of
your firm is that it seeks todesign in a way to foster
economic growth, social change,and justice is that, uh, you
know, a fair characterization ofthe work that mass design does.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Uh, yeah, that is, that is how we state our mission
statement.
Uh, and, um, and how we'reconfigured to ask those
questions about how the builtenvironment participates in, in
crushed.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So given the George Floyd moment, are there other
projects that you've beenapproached on to try to say, you
know, I think for most people,they never knew the story of
Tulsa, Oklahoma.
They never knew what happened inWilmington, North Carolina, you
(22:32):
know, when there actually was analmost insurrection and taking
over the local government, theseall seem like they would fall
into this broad category of thework that you do in terms of how
can we tell a story in a waythat moves people?
I still have you been approachedon other projects or ideas?
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Uh, yeah.
I mean, there's, you know, thereare a lot of projects that have
emerged in the last year, um,both in terms of what's coming
into our office, but what wewanted to support other, other
organizations and otherdesigners to accomplish.
You know, I, I've been veryencouraged by again, that
(23:16):
groundswell of re that kind ofawakening to authorship of our
built world and you know, whythe Memorial fund at, at, at
Mellon and some other, uh, grantmaking organizations is why it's
a meaningful is because a lot ofthese ideas are coming out of
small communities who want totell important histories that
(23:37):
have been raised abandoned,hidden, lied about that,
actually reveal kind of keymoments of the American story.
And I would say, you know, as adesigner and architect, you
know, a lot of those storieshave to be spatialized for us to
understand them.
It's not enough to just hearabout them, you know, on, on a
morning news show, we actuallyhave to go and understand what,
(23:59):
how they sit within this broader, uh, legacy, uh, of not just
injustice, but it kind of legacyof narratives that have been
hidden and been, hadn't beenlied about, and that there are
places in this country wheredependent multiplicity of our
backgrounds have been revealed,uh, with all sorts of hope and,
(24:20):
and, and a dignity, dignity, anda dignity at the same time.
Um, and, uh, telling thosestories, I think helps, uh,
helps us understand how each ofour communities has the
possibility to enact change.
And it's not just one singlehero, um, although that's
important to have leadership,um, but you know, for example,
(24:44):
the work we're doing, uh, in theBoston common right now, we're,
we're, we won the competitionwith the great sculptor, Hank
Willis Thomas to design the newMartin Luther King and credit
Scott King sculpture in theBoston common.
It's going to be very exciting,uh, project and hopefully a
national one of its own accord.
(25:04):
Um, but you know, one of thedesign strategies in that was to
say, well, let's not only, youknow, Dr.
King and Coretta's stories areincredibly important to tell and
to memorialize, but the storiesof the community of this city of
Boston who fought for economicand social justice, uh, for
(25:27):
decades and, you know, built themomentum, their stories are
important too.
So we've tried to create aplatform where many more of the
hidden stories are also revealedin a Plaza, which tells the
names of local heroes that areoften not reported outside of
the conditions of the kind ofregional, uh, like, uh, oral
(25:49):
history.
Um, and, you know, while, youknow, the King story is one of
legends international legend,uh, it, it relied on to local
movements in order for thatbroader story to, to be enacted
with, with such profound, youknow, legislative, um, uh,
(26:09):
change.
So I think it's ourresponsibility, not just as
citizens, but, you know, in eachof our professions, ours is in
the spacial disciplines, but toask how we can contribute and
participate and to, and to readour environments a new, you
know, differently.
I think one of the, one of thepositive outcomes of, of the
(26:32):
events of the summer is, is howintrospective communities are
becoming an awakening spatiallyto, to a lot of things.
Spatial awakening is just one ofthem, uh, um, to how injustice
has been steeped into all of oursystems, all of our, um, you
(26:55):
know, all of our processes andhow we have to kind of cut it
out root and STEM, um, uh,together, uh, no matter where we
find it.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So architecture, I mean, that's why I love to give
you credit to say, you didn'tneed this.
So this moment of social unrestto know that this was part of
your mission statement, but doyou think that the disruption
itself, and I think you werestarting to go there was, um, is
(27:24):
going to lead to differences ingeneral for the profession of
architecture to say, maybe weneed to look at how we do
things, or is your sense that,Hey, there were plenty of us
that were getting it rightbefore this, and maybe there'll
be just a few more of us willthink about it.
I guess it's a common questionthat I ask guests, which is
(27:47):
disruption in the positive sensethat everything that occurred
since let's say March of 2020has led to disruption in supply
chain and how we're going to dothings differently, the use of
technology.
So how about architecture?
Is there going to be adisruption of some sort?
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Well, I think there already is, and I think the
disruption is profound.
I think we're in a, in the nextgreat existential shift in the,
in the built environment, Iwould say architecture, but
let's just say the spatialdisciplines.
I think they're going throughthe most significant existential
shift.
And they've experienced probablysince really the full embrace of
(28:31):
let's say, green or sustainableor environmentally focused
architecture.
That's probably the last greatmoment.
This is the next great moment.
And it's a, a moment of, um, notreplacing the environmental
moment adding to it.
You know, the environmentalmoment, it was significant in
that we started to ask of thebuilt environment will what's
(28:53):
his footprint?
Well, now we have to ask what's,you know, what's its
environmental for, but now wehave to ask what's its a human
hand truck, what's the impactit's having on people and on
social systems.
And is it reinforcing systems ofpower or is it liberating them?
There are key questions that arebeing asked right now about the
(29:14):
built environment and how it iscomplicit in reinforcing these
systems of power or how it ispotentially an agent and in
addressing them.
I think that is most evident inthe response to COVID COVID as
most epidemics do reveals howour systems, uh, are broken and
(29:40):
it reveals the cracks in thesystems.
And really it kind of opens themup in a, in a radical way to
reveal kind of where, where thesystem is broken and you know,
COVID is, uh, has, has given usand given me a kind of evidence
that, you know, the world aroundus is it affects our health
(30:00):
every single day, the breathingitself, the ability to breathe
as a spacial problem.
You know, we don't have theright environment, we can't
breathe.
And I mean that both in terms ofare we living in our houses or
our places of work are theyinfecting us, but also to go out
on the street.
And of course the, I can'tbreathe mantra of the fight for
(30:24):
racial justice, um, has not beenlost on those who are arguing
for, um, not just the ability tobreathe, but access to breath
and not just spaces that allowyou to breathe.
But, uh, but, uh, uh, you know,a social system and
infrastructural system, whichgives us the ability to have
access to breath.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I know it's a very subtle analogy to have a
physical human being caughtsaying on a video, I can't
breathe in the midst of apandemic in which people are
saying we can't breathe and itis driving people to, I don't
(31:04):
know if they make the connectionbetween it as, as you just did.
So let me ask you a couple, I,you know, it's fun cause I have
you here.
So, so let me ask you a coupleof questions.
So one, is there a project thatyou looked at the architecture
and you said either I really,really liked that.
(31:25):
It's one of my favorites.
I love what they did there.
So let's start there.
Any favorites that you look ataround the world and say that's
a must and that group or thatperson, they were brilliant and
how they represented whateverthe issue or story they needed
to tell.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
No, it's fine.
When you put people on the spot,you can have mind goes, my mind
goes empty from some of the, forsome of the folks.
I mean, there's so many, I thinkgreat architecture exists all
over and um, you know, it's,this, it's a beautiful
resolution.
Architecture is a resolution ofthe constraints of place that
(32:10):
make it successful.
And so those architects who areable to, um, narrate a story
through their work, um, thatreveals identity of place,
identity of, um, socialconstraints, the aspirations,
you know, sometimes with limitedbudgets, I think are ones that I
gravitate towards, but also tella material story as well.
(32:30):
So one of my F certainly one ofmy favorite architects is, um, I
think of Marlon Blackwell,Marlon Blackwell is in Northwest
Arkansas
Speaker 5 (32:40):
And has built this absolutely just stunning, um,
portfolio of genius work.
That is about that region.
That is about what kind ofapproach to materiality and, and
form that is both heroic as wellas local.
It really changes the way youthink about design.
(33:02):
It's incredible.
I think the American designersin the Southwest, uh, also, uh,
really, uh, really doingincredible things cause they're
dealing with the kind of extremeclimate conditions of the desert
and really finding resolutionsof that, um, of that climate,
which produced like absolutelystunning, uh, regional American
(33:24):
architecture, which is really, Ithink, inspirational, worth,
worth looking at.
Um, there are, yeah, I mean, Ithink I'm always encouraged.
I think architects are given abad rap and there've been
critiqued a lot these days, butI think they're, they're always
struggling with these issues.
It's just whether they have the,um, the kind of audience to
(33:46):
accept it.
The compromises that they'remaking, the advances that
they're pushing forward are notjust formal.
They're not just like formalplay.
I mean, they're seriouslyconsidering environment and
climate and social conditions.
I really encouraged by those whowere able to accomplish that.
So, you know, I, I won't opinetoo much.
That's fine.
(34:06):
It's a diff it's a difficultquestion.
So, all right.
How about, let's try this one,which is so in the aftermath of
nine 11, they struggled a longtime with the appropriate
Memorial to an event of thatmagnitude.
Uh, Oklahoma city bombing alsohas a Memorial to it someday.
(34:31):
Some way someone will want tomake a Memorial or museum to
tell the story of the pandemicof 20, 20, 20, 21.
Let's be honest.
This is a multi-year experience,any early thoughts about how you
would take on a project likethat.
(34:52):
And, and I'm not pinning youdown.
I'm just asking process what,what would go into thinking
about how to tell this story?
Well, funny you ask, we haveactually thought about this
recently.
Um, we, we, um, we, we worked ona proposal actually thinking
(35:20):
that would, this is ahypothetical, but wouldn't it be
interesting to have a, insteadof an audience for Biden's
inauguration have a Memorial toCOVID they're filling the
national mall, what a greatidea.
And so, uh, the amazing GaryHildebrand landscape came up
(35:41):
with a couple of concepts aboutputting up a tree for every
victim on the national mall,instead of a person planting a
forest to commemorate those lostin this horrific tragedy.
(36:04):
Um, and that makes sense,especially since you're not
going to fill the mall with acouple of hundred thousand
people and, you know, actuallytoday, the governor of the state
of New York is delivering hisstate of the state address
virtually.
So is there not something that'sreally cool?
(36:24):
I like that.
That's really clever.
I think in this space ofMemorial design, we have to
think about what we canexperience, but also engaged
locally.
So what I do with these treeswould then be distributed across
the country to all the differentcounties and communities naming
(36:48):
their lost, loved ones.
So, I mean, there's, there'sways, sorry, that's similar to
nine 11.
There are memorials all over,you know, people have their own
remembrance of what occurred onthat day.
This is a malt.
This is frequently people say,you know, the number of people
(37:11):
who died in one day is equal andnow surpassing the number of
people that died on nine 11.
Now the, the audacity of whatoccurred on nine 11 as an
individual experience is onething that the overall two year
it's just that, it's the thingthat history books will write
(37:35):
about for the next 50 to ahundred years know, based on how
long we wrote about the pandemicof 1919, you know?
So, um, how about projects inyour home, you know, uh, in, in
the, bi-weekly sketch out that,you know, your family originally
came from Poughkeepsie and howabout other things you've ever
(37:56):
thought about that you wish youcould do in the Hudson Valley?
Well, you know, as you know, I'ma proud Kipsy, uh, not resident,
but a former particularlyresident grew up there, went to
high school there, middle schoolthere, still call it my
hometown.
And, um, uh, this, this was aquestion that actually someone
(38:19):
posed to me, uh, years ago, andI was working one of our first
projects in Haiti after theearthquake and after the cholera
epidemic there, uh, the amazinglocal leader, Brian Doyle runs a
local nonprofit
Speaker 4 (38:36):
And Poughkeepsie reached out to me, which was an
email and said, you know, great,great to see what you're doing
in Haiti.
We're going to come back toPoughkeepsie and work on stuff
we're dealing with here.
And I, you know, I thought thatwas a really, really powerful
kind of call to arms.
To me.
It was, it was both sobering aswell as encouraging, you know,
(38:59):
that our hometown, which, um,which suffered from, I was
always taught.
It was like someone called it amuseum of failed urban renewal
projects.
Um, was this, uh, landscape of,uh, failed, you know, designs
(39:22):
like designs that were thoughtand were planned to revitalize
renew re-energize reawaken thecity 50 years ago, didn't work.
In fact, they reinforced some ofthe same inequalities that they
might have sought to address.
And often with very progressivepeople at the helm coming up
(39:45):
with those designs, trying toleverage, um, you know, dollars
put from the Johnsonadministration.
So I think the kind of, uh,realm of, um, it's, you know, it
keeps me from me is where Ilearned about the built
environment, uh, failing,failing its citizens.
(40:08):
But it's also where I've learnedthat there are so many
initiatives that have beenwanting to happen for decades
there, that haven't had themoney behind the, the energy
behind them or the designs, uh,really in front of them to, to
build a momentum, to make themhappen.
So, a couple of years ago we,um, set up, uh, an office in
(40:30):
Poughkeepsie, really just a team, uh, to really kind of mind
those stories and mind thoseinitiatives and see if we could
throw our own kind of grit andsupport and connect, you know,
connecting other folks in grantwriting, make some of them
happen.
Um, and five years later, I'mlike pretty encouraged that some
(40:50):
of these huge initiatives, uh,are starting to get traction and
I'd love to see happen in thenext couple of years.
Um, and, um, they were things Ithought about for 30 years, like
, uh, the arterial highways,which are this just horrible
(41:11):
remnant of urban renewaldesigned for a city that would
grow in size by like three times, uh, while the city's
population actually shrunk.
So you have these highways for150,000 people.
Weren't really only, you know,what you need, like a quarter of
what we have in terms ofhighways for the current
population.
And they divided the city andsorry, go on for our
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Listeners, just do what you were about to do, which
is how they, these arterialsactually run right through the
middle, um, and divide the city.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
Yeah.
They really divided the city.
And there was a big move tobuild arterial highways in the
mid century because thinkingthat, Oh, the car we've got to
bring people in to, you know, tothe downtown and then move them
out.
And so there was a big visionthat this would be a progress,
but it actually destroyed somany downtowns and Poughkeepsie
really got beaten up.
(42:04):
So as you know, across thenation cities with more
resources have, you know, beenable to take those arts, same
arterial highway designs andturn them back into
bi-directional streets and, uh,you know, boulevards and, uh,
sometimes eliminate themaltogether.
(42:24):
Um, and you're seeing thosekinds of projects in Buffalo and
Hartford and elsewhere, but itgives you smaller and doesn't
have the resources quite to dothat.
So we need to build momentum.
We need to help peopleunderstand the damage these
highways did to the city and,and also, you know, render a
vision of what it would looklike if we got rid of them or if
we, you know, um, reduced theirsize and the arguments for them
(42:48):
are hilarious.
They're just straight out of akind of mid-century playbook.
Oh, we need to move throughfast.
So we need, you know, we don'twant traffic, you know, we, you
know, there's not enough parkingand these arguments really, um,
are not, actually, they're nottrue arguments.
I mean, you know, when you startto dig into the numbers and
(43:08):
Poughkeepsie has something like75% more parking than it needs,
right.
You start digging into the, asan urbanist or just sort of
looking at the numbers you say,Oh, wow, those are real issues.
It's the amount of their publicrealm committed to parking,
committed to highways could begiven back to the city for
(43:29):
development, for housing, forpublic and social services.
Uh, but we just need to kind ofmove those ideas along, um, uh,
together.
And so something that we've beenworking on trying to push
forward.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah.
Your, your effort toPoughkeepsie, uh, you know,
Chris kroner, uh, just terrific.
Uh, but you mentioned housing.
So I'm going to make this, mylast question, which is, there
is a desperate need foraffordable housing as an
architect.
Have you ever thought or spendtime saying what it could look
(44:03):
like?
So that communities, instead ofsaying, we don't want that
housing in our community andlet's face it, there's a history
of how to build it bad.
Um, but have you ever thoughtabout how to build it in a way
that people would go, wait,wait, wait, I blight that that's
really attractive.
(44:23):
It's interesting.
I know there are costs, elementsinvolved.
It has, I, I know that this isreally not in the, you know,
like the recent wall streetjournal article.
It's not in that you wouldn'tfind it there, but you're a
curious person in the sense thatyou think about lots of
different things.
Have you ever thought aboutaffordable housing?
Speaker 4 (44:42):
Oh yeah.
I mean, we're, we have an entireportfolio of affordable housing
that we're working on right now.
And, uh, we'll probably have ahalf a dozen projects that are
in on the boards.
And, um, our first, uh,initiative in Boston is under
construction is going to beunder construction this year.
Um, and we've been looking ataffordable housing in a number
(45:03):
of different ways.
Um, uh, but in particular, youknow, senior housing or aging in
place housing.
So housing that is wrappingaround services really with
specific, um, uh, social needsand embedding that within the
building itself.
And I think to your point, youknow, we often have, have given
(45:26):
affordable housing, a bad rapbecause we've designed it to be
as cheap as possible.
Absolutely.
The bare minimum cost to serve,you know, the, the most, um,
needy constituents.
And then once we need thehousing the most.
And I think that kind of devil'sbargain is really misplaced.
(45:47):
We, you know, theseorganizations great one in
Poughkeepsie and in Hudson riverhousing, you know, they're
fighting, fighting for grants orfighting for state dollars to
try to build better housing andserve the communities that need
it the most.
And they do a heroic job in ourcommunity, but every community
in a lot of communities, notevery County, a lot of counties
have these housing nonprofitswho are doing their best to
(46:10):
wrestle with very limitedresources to serve the under
housed and the, um, and thehomeless.
And, um, that's only increasedin the pandemic.
And of course, before that wasthe opioid pandemic, which also
increased our need for, um,housing.
And, um, the economic injusticesthat we're facing now is only
going to only further, uh,disenfranchise those in terms of
(46:35):
not just affordable, butappropriate housing for them.
So it's a huge design problem,but it's also a financial
problem.
You know, it's also aboutcreating new, um, uh, new
financial models and mechanismsof paying for, you know,
creative mechanisms to pay forhousing, which serves this
population, which isn't justbased on the current really, I'm
(47:00):
gonna say, um, it's notineffective the current system,
but it's just, it's notobviously meeting the need of
the tax incentives and, youknow, grant and grant support
and, um, and, and a basic, youknow, market-based strategy of
building affordable housing.
It's not really, it's clearlynot serving the need that's out
there.
So we need to come up with newfinancial structures, new models
(47:21):
of paying for this, this work,and then new designs, which
integrate, uh, affordable andmarket-based housing together,
Speaker 5 (47:30):
Uh, refill these downtown districts, which had
been abandoned.
I think there's an incredibleopportunity.
We're seeing this with themarket and Poughkeepsie is for
the first time in 50 years, likeexploding, you're seeing that
all of these old towns aroundthe, around the nation.
So it's an important moment.
I think, an opportunity that wecan take a hold of Michael
Murphy.
Thank you so much for your time.
(47:51):
Thank you for your creativity.
Thank you for your willingnessto take on issues that most
people would run from.
Um, we're, we're fortunate thatyou come from lots and Valley
and, um, we can share a littlebit in, in your, um, disruption
and creativity.
(48:11):
Disruption to me is a good word.
It's not a bad word, so thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you, John.
Thanks for all you all do.
It's really a pleasure to talkwith you and, um, you know, too
much, too much more excitingwork in the Hudson Valley in the
future.
Thanks for including me.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Thank you for tuning in to patterns and paradigms the
pattern podcast.
For more information about thisepisode, visit our website
pattern for progress.org forwardslash podcast.
We are experiencing a paradigm shift, a fundamental
change in the way we usually dothings.
We are intentionally choosing tosee the silver lining
opportunity arises.
We can shine a light on thethings that weren't working well
(00:25):
on those things that weren'treally working at all, we can
regroup reevaluate andre-engineer it's time to explore
new patterns and paradigms thosethat inspire us to rise above
the chaos and explore how theconditions of today and take us
(00:47):
to a better tomorrow patternsand paradigms the pattern
podcast from Hudson Valleypattern for progress.
You're listening to season two,episode two, the architecture of
healing and social equity withyour host pattern, president and
CEO, Jonathan, Dropkin
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Welcome to another episode of our podcast.
We hope you enjoyed DianaMason's discussion on where we
are with the war on COVIDcommunity health and other
important issues.
Especially a shout out to thenurses in the frontline.
This week, we pivot toarchitecture.
(01:29):
Joining us is Hudson Valleynative Michael Murphy, the
founder of the mass design groupto listen to our podcast.
All you need to do is continueto subscribe and download
patterns and paradigms whereveryou find your favorite podcasts,
such as Apple, Amazon music,Spotify, and Google.
(01:51):
If you have any ideas for futuretopics and episodes, please send
them to pattern forprogress.org/podcast.
So I was trying to think ofwhere do I want to go for the
next big thing?
And it's sort of like, it's notthe next, but it's definitely
(02:15):
time to reinterpret the deliveryof broadband.
We have learned throughout thepandemic of the critical need
for equal access to broadband,whether it is for remote work,
Calla medicine, online learning,and so much more broadband has
moved from a luxury to witness.
(02:38):
Essity just like electricity.
The goal needs to create theinfrastructure and regulation to
ensure that this actuallyhappens, that everyone has
access to it.
Defining being served is a falsepremise.
How many days are you on yourinternet?
(02:59):
And you're trying to have ameeting or a phone call, and it
is this rough right in themiddle.
You're hanging on a word and yougot to call the person back.
The sun is shining outside.
There's not a cloud in the sky.
Why does this happen?
Or for the family that cannotafford the cost of the internet
(03:22):
or to the family that is told topay for the last mile to carry
broadband to their rural home,the pattern is clear.
The post COVID world can nolonger be divided into the have
and have nots when it comes tobroadband.
What comes next is yet to bedetermined, but we hope all of
(03:45):
our listeners join us andsaying, it's not a luxury.
It's a necessity.
Before I introduce Michael,let's ask Joe Cheika what's up,
Joe, Joe, we had a couple ofgood mentions this week.
Maybe you can elaborate for ourlisteners, just what they were
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Sure we did.
Uh, it's always nice to get goodfeedback on our work.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
It is.
I mean, you know, often we workand, you know, we, we deliver
the product, but these are someexceptions that made us all feel
pretty good.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
They, they did.
And the beauty of working withour clients, if you will, is
that we go back and forth withtheir feedback, with our input.
And we come out with a product.
I think that we're both happywith, and that takes a little
extra time.
And I think that's thedifference between us and a lot
of other groups is that wereally incorporate what they're
(04:41):
feeling, what they're doing, whow they know and understand
their audiences.
So, for example, up in the cityof Kingston, we had been working
with them for a good nine or 10months on a project that was
really designed to understandwhat their vacant and abandoned
properties were like in the city, uh, in terms of one, two and
(05:05):
three family homes.
And so we did a lot of fieldwork, uh, actually during COVID,
we were socially distanced.
We went out and wore our masks,and we did a lot of windshield
surveys from the vehicle andwalking around the
neighborhoods.
And we found that the vacantproperties in the city of
Kingston, majority of the one tofour family homes are wooden
(05:27):
structures, but they're not inreally terrible shape, which is
a good thing for a city.
And by the end of, at the end ofthe day, at the end of the
study, we created a series ofrecommendations for them, eight,
eight recommendations.
In fact, and the city mayor,Steve noble, he actually brought
(05:49):
up the fact that we did thestudy in his state of the city
address.
And it was very rewarding for,for our entire team at pattern.
And, um, there were some reallygood recommendations.
I got to say that we came upwith a few of them, they're
going to be putting into place.
Um, so that, that's a reallygood, positive feedback that we
(06:10):
got from the city.
Another good piece ofinformation that we got back was
, uh, from the city of Hudsonway up in Columbia County, uh,
back about three years ago, wedid a series of community
engagement sessions and workingwith a local housing task force.
And we developed something upthere called the strategic
(06:31):
housing action plan, the Shap,if you will.
And that's right where we try toget our acronyms.
So it's kind of a fun thing tosay.
So with the Shap in hand, thecommunity, the city went to a
national organization calledenterprise.
(06:52):
They used our, our study, ourrecommendations as a foundation
to apply for additional dollarsto get our recommendations
actually funded.
And lo and behold, they weresuccessful.
They just received a$1 milliongrant for anti-displacement
(07:13):
activities in the city ofHudson.
They are going to be able tofund a brand new staff position
to help coordinate the efforts,which was a major lacking part
of their system delivery in thecity.
So again, our work setting, thefoundation, our recommendations
(07:33):
really move our work forward inthose communities.
So it's very rewarding to see,and I'm, uh, I'm really looking
forward to actually continuingour work in the city of Houghton
.
They, uh, they're going to haveus start a affordable housing
development plan, which we'rekicking off probably in about a
(07:53):
month and that's going to helpthem identify three, four, maybe
five developable sites forhousing right there in the city.
And so it's rewarding.
And I got to say thesecommunities, they're very
progressive in what they'redoing, and it's good.
It's a good thing to see here inthe Hudson Valley.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Thanks, Joe.
I appreciate you explainingthese things.
They often, you know, could gounnoticed, but it is part of the
infrastructure of thesecommunities, the work that you,
the team of pattern are doing,uh, in order to ensure in this
case housing, which has become,I can't remember in our 14 years
(08:36):
together where this is been astop of mind, the need for
affordable and workforce housingas it is now.
And, and for all the years thatyou have been laying the
foundation for this, um, kudosto you that it is not just being
recognized, but that actuallysome funding absolutely.
(08:57):
Sounds good.
All right, Joe, thanks.
And now on to our guests,Michael Murphy is the executive
director of the mass designgroup, an architecture firm that
leverages buildings as part ofthe design and construction
process to become engines forhealth economic growth and
(09:18):
longterm sustainability.
Michael sits on the boards ofthe Clinton global initiative
advisory committee, the Harvardgraduate school of design alumni
board, the center for healthcaredesign and is an expert in
residents at the Harvardinnovation lab.
(09:39):
Michael is a true visionary, adisruptor before the word became
common.
And most importantly, he hailsfrom Poughkeepsie New York,
Michael, welcome to the podcast.
How you doing?
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Hey, Jonathan.
Nice to be here.
Thanks.
Thanks for this.
I'm I'm doing, uh, okay.
All things considered.
I know that's probably theanswer of a lot of people, but,
uh, you know, we're in a uniquemoment in time and, uh, we're
surviving okay.
Both in my family and at thefirm, but thanks for asking.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Um, sure.
Um, and just on the, from one ofthe things about your firm,
that's so interesting is thatyou have offices all over the
world.
So you were almost, you didn'thave to pivot, you've been
pivoting for years.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Well, and in terms of the, in terms of the zoom
worlds, we, um, if you want tocall it that we have been
working remotely with teamsdispersed across, across the
globe, uh, historically, sothere, wasn't an incredibly
difficult pivot for us to kindof can be completely online.
Although I would say that Icertainly miss, um, connecting
(10:47):
with my team in person.
Um, and you know, I typicallytravel an enormous amount, uh,
especially to project sites andto see the teams and we haven't
been able to do that.
So, um, you know, I am reallylooking forward to the end of
this and being able to workagain with the, you know, my
team and the communities that wework with and just really be in
(11:08):
person has been reallydifferent.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Cool.
I think there's a, you have alot of company there.
So, um, so let me just start bysaying, so it was, uh, last
month in December, I, uh, openup a wall street journal, the
weekend edition, they have theirannual innovators, uh, special
(11:31):
section and there you are.
And I was just, it was anincredible piece.
I learned so much more, I thinkI know a bit about mass design,
but I learned so much more.
How did that come about?
And were you excited?
Pleased?
What, what was your reaction?
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Yeah, I mean, it was an incredible honor and we were
really, really kind of shockedand humbled when we got the
email over the summer, um, thatthey had chosen us as their
architect of the year incrediblecompany.
Um, people we really admireDarren Walker and Titus Kaphar
and, um, just incredible,incredible folks to be in that
(12:14):
company.
So it was a really nice, a niceshock and, um, a pleasant, um,
email to, to open in the middleof this pandemic.
You know, I think it's been,it's been a difficult year to
know if how architects andarchitectural discipline and the
practice is going to survive ifwe're going to see significant
economic downturn.
(12:34):
And, um, if that might affect alot of building projects, um,
but you know, actually we'veseen the opposite.
We've seen growth and a lot ofdemand for new projects.
We've seen incredible effort tokeep a building projects going.
And, uh, and then just a lot offocus on the, on the, on the
role of infection control thatwe have been thinking about for
a long time.
So it was, it was, you know, wewere very appreciative of that
(12:58):
kind of attention and, and, um,and really enjoyed the process
going through it.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So one of the first things in the article was that
at the beginning of COVID, youwere actually called upon by
various organizations to helpthem with the redesign.
I guess one was a homeless groupup in Boston.
Uh, one was one of the majorhospitals that in New York city.
(13:22):
Um, so that you've actually beendirectly using your
architectural skills as a wayfor other organizations to adapt
to the COVID world.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Well, I mean, you know, we've, our organization
began, uh, with thinking aboutdesign's role in addressing
epidemic airborne disease.
In the case of, uh, where we,our first project was with the
organization partners in healthand the government of Rwanda
building a hospital that triedto mitigate and manage, um,
(13:58):
tuberculosis and multi-drugresistant tuberculosis and its
transmission it's airbornetransmission through simple
design measures, like, uh,natural ventilation, uh, careful
planning of, of, uh, uh, ofpatients and staff.
Um, UVG I lied.
So we've been thinking about,and working on infection control
(14:21):
for airborne disease since ourfounding.
So when COVID emerged, uh, andwe were had this experience, you
know, our partners that wealready had quickly reached out
to us recognizing that, Oh, wow,there's a whole spacial
reorganization.
That's necessary to address ourneeds as in a hospital with
(14:43):
serving our constituents.
And, you know, and mass hasexperienced doing that.
So, you know, we got right intoit and developed a lot of, um,
free guidelines to help so manyentities or at least help
organizations think about thespatial and physical
implications of infectioncontrol in any of building that
they might be within or bethinking about addressing.
(15:05):
So, uh, yeah, it happened reallyquickly and we continue to work
on reopening plans,reorganization plans, airflow
strategies, and helping entitiesthink about that today, redesign
their systems.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
It was just incredible to read that.
And they use that as the lead,obviously to connect to COVID.
Um, one of the things that Iespecially enjoy about mass
design is the way that you useyour architecture to invite
people into the space.
And it is something that, youknow, the photographs,
(15:42):
especially if some of thehealth-related facilities and in
Africa are, are just fascinatingto me.
I can, maybe you can help us onhow do you begin that design
process of saying here's acommunity, they have a need of
health, but we need them to notlook at it like a traditional
(16:02):
hospital.
It's somehow built into thelandscape, at least that's my,
you know, untrained, I lookingat it and saying, it's
welcoming.
Speaker 4 (16:14):
Oh, thanks for saying that.
I, you know, and it sounds likeyou do have a really good
spacial sense Jones.
I know you do.
And, um, you know, I think theprocess really begins with the,
with the organization that we'retrying to serve and their
constituents, and they oftenhave the answers, uh, and the
kind of ideas that they arelooking to spatialize, but, you
(16:34):
know, need designers andarchitects to join them and
helping articulate that theythink they talk a lot about the
impact of the work, what it willbe.
And, um, architecture can helpaddress those broader impacts by
the way we experience it, youknow, in four dimensions.
So when you talk about welcomingpeople, you know, we think
really, uh, uh, you know, wethink a lot, uh, and quite
(17:00):
critically about what I wouldcall the threshold problem,
which is how do you create anenvironment which brings people
in at many different phases,brings them into a threshold and
allows them to understand theinfrastructure that brings them
further deeper into the space sothat they benefit from its, um,
from what's designed aroundthem.
And it allows them a way out.
I really think about buildingsas a kind of cinematic
(17:21):
experience.
Um, and each of those momentsare moments for information for
in the case of COVID like cleanair, uh, for, uh, creating
spaces that differentiatebetween let's say, contaminated
or clean spaces or anunderstanding why the building
is there and how it's supposedto serve us.
So, you know, I think if wethink about buildings as, as a
(17:43):
journey, every time you're goingthrough them, then the story of
a building, the story of a spaceis really the story of the
organization.
What's the story they're tryingto tell what's the agenda
they're trying to bring to theirconstituents and that, that kind
of narrative, uh, building, Ioften say as a narrative vessel
is how we think about the designthat needs to respond to their
overall aspirations.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Um, although we're dealing with a pandemic and
economic unrest, um, anddisruption, there's also been
something else that clearly tookplace over the, you know, in
2020.
And that was the social unrest.
And, and I would think that thisis a project that people would
run away from.
(18:27):
And yet you ran towards doingthis pre, um, the events of
2020,
Speaker 4 (18:37):
I would say we're always seeking out the thought
leaders and change agents whoare trying to tackle the hardest
issues.
And, um, we started conversationwhere, uh, we asked how we could
be of service.
It's incredible to seearchitecture, you know, be of
service for how we might rethinkmemorials in our communities.
(19:00):
Take down memorials, recognizethat memorialization is itself
fraught with political andsocial impacts and that the
design of the Memorial spaces ormonuments spaces around us is
not a neutral thing.
It's a very complex and, um,conflicted, uh, uh, set of
decisions about power and whodeserves to be recognized and
(19:21):
who deserves to be memorialized.
And so I've been thinking aboutthe role of memorials and
advancing questions of socialand economic and racial justice
before.
And I've been really encouragedby so many small grassroots
organizations who have asked howthey can change the Memorial
landscape of their own towns andtheir communities.
I've, you know, the Mellonfoundation has recently created
(19:43):
an entire fund dedicated tosupporting many of these
initiatives.
Um, so this kind of reckoningabout our national narrative and
who tells the story is longoverdue and what the events of
the last week is, uh, has takenon a new form itself about how
the history will be told.
And, uh, I think we'll be askingthis question for, for decades
(20:06):
to come.
Um, but I hope the work that'sable to be accomplished right
now in the next couple of years,while the attention is fixed on
this question could really be aprofound one to, uh, adjust and
not just adjust and change, butwrite the narrative of the
(20:28):
United States, right?
The narrative of our, of ourhistory and our future to be
more, uh, Johs more equitable,more true.
Um, and hopefully, um, come outof this a little bit better as a
nation,
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I had one experience building a museum, and that was
at Bethel woods at the side ofthe Woodstock festival.
And I got to work with a numberof architects and developing the
ability to tell the story of thesixties and how Woodstock fit
into it.
It is a complex process oftrying to understand what does
(21:05):
the client want?
What does the community wantyour place in history?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
No, we need to understand the history, but we
also need to feel the history.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I think one of the things that I learned about, you
know, at least telling the storyof the sixties is you wanted to
people that pass through thedoors of the museum, you wanted
them to come out for lack of abetter word move.
They needed to feel somethingthat was otherwise in a history
(21:36):
book.
So if I was to read you back,you know, a broad description of
your firm is that it seeks todesign in a way to foster
economic growth, social change,and justice is that, uh, you
know, a fair characterization ofthe work that mass design does.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Uh, yeah, that is, that is how we state our mission
statement.
Uh, and, um, and how we'reconfigured to ask those
questions about how the builtenvironment participates in, in
crushed.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
So given the George Floyd moment, are there other
projects that you've beenapproached on to try to say, you
know, I think for most people,they never knew the story of
Tulsa, Oklahoma.
They never knew what happened inWilmington, North Carolina, you
(22:32):
know, when there actually was analmost insurrection and taking
over the local government, theseall seem like they would fall
into this broad category of thework that you do in terms of how
can we tell a story in a waythat moves people?
I still have you been approachedon other projects or ideas?
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Uh, yeah.
I mean, there's, you know, thereare a lot of projects that have
emerged in the last year, um,both in terms of what's coming
into our office, but what wewanted to support other, other
organizations and otherdesigners to accomplish.
You know, I, I've been veryencouraged by again, that
(23:16):
groundswell of re that kind ofawakening to authorship of our
built world and you know, whythe Memorial fund at, at, at
Mellon and some other, uh, grantmaking organizations is why it's
a meaningful is because a lot ofthese ideas are coming out of
small communities who want totell important histories that
(23:37):
have been raised abandoned,hidden, lied about that,
actually reveal kind of keymoments of the American story.
And I would say, you know, as adesigner and architect, you
know, a lot of those storieshave to be spatialized for us to
understand them.
It's not enough to just hearabout them, you know, on, on a
morning news show, we actuallyhave to go and understand what,
(23:59):
how they sit within this broader, uh, legacy, uh, of not just
injustice, but it kind of legacyof narratives that have been
hidden and been, hadn't beenlied about, and that there are
places in this country wheredependent multiplicity of our
backgrounds have been revealed,uh, with all sorts of hope and,
(24:20):
and, and a dignity, dignity, anda dignity at the same time.
Um, and, uh, telling thosestories, I think helps, uh,
helps us understand how each ofour communities has the
possibility to enact change.
And it's not just one singlehero, um, although that's
important to have leadership,um, but you know, for example,
(24:44):
the work we're doing, uh, in theBoston common right now, we're,
we're, we won the competitionwith the great sculptor, Hank
Willis Thomas to design the newMartin Luther King and credit
Scott King sculpture in theBoston common.
It's going to be very exciting,uh, project and hopefully a
national one of its own accord.
(25:04):
Um, but you know, one of thedesign strategies in that was to
say, well, let's not only, youknow, Dr.
King and Coretta's stories areincredibly important to tell and
to memorialize, but the storiesof the community of this city of
Boston who fought for economicand social justice, uh, for
(25:27):
decades and, you know, built themomentum, their stories are
important too.
So we've tried to create aplatform where many more of the
hidden stories are also revealedin a Plaza, which tells the
names of local heroes that areoften not reported outside of
the conditions of the kind ofregional, uh, like, uh, oral
(25:49):
history.
Um, and, you know, while, youknow, the King story is one of
legends international legend,uh, it, it relied on to local
movements in order for thatbroader story to, to be enacted
with, with such profound, youknow, legislative, um, uh,
(26:09):
change.
So I think it's ourresponsibility, not just as
citizens, but, you know, in eachof our professions, ours is in
the spacial disciplines, but toask how we can contribute and
participate and to, and to readour environments a new, you
know, differently.
I think one of the, one of thepositive outcomes of, of the
(26:32):
events of the summer is, is howintrospective communities are
becoming an awakening spatiallyto, to a lot of things.
Spatial awakening is just one ofthem, uh, um, to how injustice
has been steeped into all of oursystems, all of our, um, you
(26:55):
know, all of our processes andhow we have to kind of cut it
out root and STEM, um, uh,together, uh, no matter where we
find it.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So architecture, I mean, that's why I love to give
you credit to say, you didn'tneed this.
So this moment of social unrestto know that this was part of
your mission statement, but doyou think that the disruption
itself, and I think you werestarting to go there was, um, is
(27:24):
going to lead to differences ingeneral for the profession of
architecture to say, maybe weneed to look at how we do
things, or is your sense that,Hey, there were plenty of us
that were getting it rightbefore this, and maybe there'll
be just a few more of us willthink about it.
I guess it's a common questionthat I ask guests, which is
(27:47):
disruption in the positive sensethat everything that occurred
since let's say March of 2020has led to disruption in supply
chain and how we're going to dothings differently, the use of
technology.
So how about architecture?
Is there going to be adisruption of some sort?
Speaker 4 (28:07):
Well, I think there already is, and I think the
disruption is profound.
I think we're in a, in the nextgreat existential shift in the,
in the built environment, Iwould say architecture, but
let's just say the spatialdisciplines.
I think they're going throughthe most significant existential
shift.
And they've experienced probablysince really the full embrace of
(28:31):
let's say, green or sustainableor environmentally focused
architecture.
That's probably the last greatmoment.
This is the next great moment.
And it's a, a moment of, um, notreplacing the environmental
moment adding to it.
You know, the environmentalmoment, it was significant in
that we started to ask of thebuilt environment will what's
(28:53):
his footprint?
Well, now we have to ask what's,you know, what's its
environmental for, but now wehave to ask what's its a human
hand truck, what's the impactit's having on people and on
social systems.
And is it reinforcing systems ofpower or is it liberating them?
There are key questions that arebeing asked right now about the
(29:14):
built environment and how it iscomplicit in reinforcing these
systems of power or how it ispotentially an agent and in
addressing them.
I think that is most evident inthe response to COVID COVID as
most epidemics do reveals howour systems, uh, are broken and
(29:40):
it reveals the cracks in thesystems.
And really it kind of opens themup in a, in a radical way to
reveal kind of where, where thesystem is broken and you know,
COVID is, uh, has, has given usand given me a kind of evidence
that, you know, the world aroundus is it affects our health
(30:00):
every single day, the breathingitself, the ability to breathe
as a spacial problem.
You know, we don't have theright environment, we can't
breathe.
And I mean that both in terms ofare we living in our houses or
our places of work are theyinfecting us, but also to go out
on the street.
And of course the, I can'tbreathe mantra of the fight for
(30:24):
racial justice, um, has not beenlost on those who are arguing
for, um, not just the ability tobreathe, but access to breath
and not just spaces that allowyou to breathe.
But, uh, but, uh, uh, you know,a social system and
infrastructural system, whichgives us the ability to have
access to breath.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I know it's a very subtle analogy to have a
physical human being caughtsaying on a video, I can't
breathe in the midst of apandemic in which people are
saying we can't breathe and itis driving people to, I don't
(31:04):
know if they make the connectionbetween it as, as you just did.
So let me ask you a couple, I,you know, it's fun cause I have
you here.
So, so let me ask you a coupleof questions.
So one, is there a project thatyou looked at the architecture
and you said either I really,really liked that.
(31:25):
It's one of my favorites.
I love what they did there.
So let's start there.
Any favorites that you look ataround the world and say that's
a must and that group or thatperson, they were brilliant and
how they represented whateverthe issue or story they needed
to tell.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
No, it's fine.
When you put people on the spot,you can have mind goes, my mind
goes empty from some of the, forsome of the folks.
I mean, there's so many, I thinkgreat architecture exists all
over and um, you know, it's,this, it's a beautiful
resolution.
Architecture is a resolution ofthe constraints of place that
(32:10):
make it successful.
And so those architects who areable to, um, narrate a story
through their work, um, thatreveals identity of place,
identity of, um, socialconstraints, the aspirations,
you know, sometimes with limitedbudgets, I think are ones that I
gravitate towards, but also tella material story as well.
(32:30):
So one of my F certainly one ofmy favorite architects is, um, I
think of Marlon Blackwell,Marlon Blackwell is in Northwest
Arkansas
Speaker 5 (32:40):
And has built this absolutely just stunning, um,
portfolio of genius work.
That is about that region.
That is about what kind ofapproach to materiality and, and
form that is both heroic as wellas local.
It really changes the way youthink about design.
(33:02):
It's incredible.
I think the American designersin the Southwest, uh, also, uh,
really, uh, really doingincredible things cause they're
dealing with the kind of extremeclimate conditions of the desert
and really finding resolutionsof that, um, of that climate,
which produced like absolutelystunning, uh, regional American
(33:24):
architecture, which is really, Ithink, inspirational, worth,
worth looking at.
Um, there are, yeah, I mean, Ithink I'm always encouraged.
I think architects are given abad rap and there've been
critiqued a lot these days, butI think they're, they're always
struggling with these issues.
It's just whether they have the,um, the kind of audience to
(33:46):
accept it.
The compromises that they'remaking, the advances that
they're pushing forward are notjust formal.
They're not just like formalplay.
I mean, they're seriouslyconsidering environment and
climate and social conditions.
I really encouraged by those whowere able to accomplish that.
So, you know, I, I won't opinetoo much.
That's fine.
(34:06):
It's a diff it's a difficultquestion.
So, all right.
How about, let's try this one,which is so in the aftermath of
nine 11, they struggled a longtime with the appropriate
Memorial to an event of thatmagnitude.
Uh, Oklahoma city bombing alsohas a Memorial to it someday.
(34:31):
Some way someone will want tomake a Memorial or museum to
tell the story of the pandemicof 20, 20, 20, 21.
Let's be honest.
This is a multi-year experience,any early thoughts about how you
would take on a project likethat.
(34:52):
And, and I'm not pinning youdown.
I'm just asking process what,what would go into thinking
about how to tell this story?
Well, funny you ask, we haveactually thought about this
recently.
Um, we, we, um, we, we worked ona proposal actually thinking
(35:20):
that would, this is ahypothetical, but wouldn't it be
interesting to have a, insteadof an audience for Biden's
inauguration have a Memorial toCOVID they're filling the
national mall, what a greatidea.
And so, uh, the amazing GaryHildebrand landscape came up
(35:41):
with a couple of concepts aboutputting up a tree for every
victim on the national mall,instead of a person planting a
forest to commemorate those lostin this horrific tragedy.
(36:04):
Um, and that makes sense,especially since you're not
going to fill the mall with acouple of hundred thousand
people and, you know, actuallytoday, the governor of the state
of New York is delivering hisstate of the state address
virtually.
So is there not something that'sreally cool?
(36:24):
I like that.
That's really clever.
I think in this space ofMemorial design, we have to
think about what we canexperience, but also engaged
locally.
So what I do with these treeswould then be distributed across
the country to all the differentcounties and communities naming
(36:48):
their lost, loved ones.
So, I mean, there's, there'sways, sorry, that's similar to
nine 11.
There are memorials all over,you know, people have their own
remembrance of what occurred onthat day.
This is a malt.
This is frequently people say,you know, the number of people
(37:11):
who died in one day is equal andnow surpassing the number of
people that died on nine 11.
Now the, the audacity of whatoccurred on nine 11 as an
individual experience is onething that the overall two year
it's just that, it's the thingthat history books will write
(37:35):
about for the next 50 to ahundred years know, based on how
long we wrote about the pandemicof 1919, you know?
So, um, how about projects inyour home, you know, uh, in, in
the, bi-weekly sketch out that,you know, your family originally
came from Poughkeepsie and howabout other things you've ever
(37:56):
thought about that you wish youcould do in the Hudson Valley?
Well, you know, as you know, I'ma proud Kipsy, uh, not resident,
but a former particularlyresident grew up there, went to
high school there, middle schoolthere, still call it my
hometown.
And, um, uh, this, this was aquestion that actually someone
(38:19):
posed to me, uh, years ago, andI was working one of our first
projects in Haiti after theearthquake and after the cholera
epidemic there, uh, the amazinglocal leader, Brian Doyle runs a
local nonprofit
Speaker 4 (38:36):
And Poughkeepsie reached out to me, which was an
email and said, you know, great,great to see what you're doing
in Haiti.
We're going to come back toPoughkeepsie and work on stuff
we're dealing with here.
And I, you know, I thought thatwas a really, really powerful
kind of call to arms.
To me.
It was, it was both sobering aswell as encouraging, you know,
(38:59):
that our hometown, which, um,which suffered from, I was
always taught.
It was like someone called it amuseum of failed urban renewal
projects.
Um, was this, uh, landscape of,uh, failed, you know, designs
(39:22):
like designs that were thoughtand were planned to revitalize
renew re-energize reawaken thecity 50 years ago, didn't work.
In fact, they reinforced some ofthe same inequalities that they
might have sought to address.
And often with very progressivepeople at the helm coming up
(39:45):
with those designs, trying toleverage, um, you know, dollars
put from the Johnsonadministration.
So I think the kind of, uh,realm of, um, it's, you know, it
keeps me from me is where Ilearned about the built
environment, uh, failing,failing its citizens.
(40:08):
But it's also where I've learnedthat there are so many
initiatives that have beenwanting to happen for decades
there, that haven't had themoney behind the, the energy
behind them or the designs, uh,really in front of them to, to
build a momentum, to make themhappen.
So, a couple of years ago we,um, set up, uh, an office in
(40:30):
Poughkeepsie, really just a team, uh, to really kind of mind
those stories and mind thoseinitiatives and see if we could
throw our own kind of grit andsupport and connect, you know,
connecting other folks in grantwriting, make some of them
happen.
Um, and five years later, I'mlike pretty encouraged that some
(40:50):
of these huge initiatives, uh,are starting to get traction and
I'd love to see happen in thenext couple of years.
Um, and, um, they were things Ithought about for 30 years, like
, uh, the arterial highways,which are this just horrible
(41:11):
remnant of urban renewaldesigned for a city that would
grow in size by like three times, uh, while the city's
population actually shrunk.
So you have these highways for150,000 people.
Weren't really only, you know,what you need, like a quarter of
what we have in terms ofhighways for the current
population.
And they divided the city andsorry, go on for our
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Listeners, just do what you were about to do, which
is how they, these arterialsactually run right through the
middle, um, and divide the city.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
Yeah.
They really divided the city.
And there was a big move tobuild arterial highways in the
mid century because thinkingthat, Oh, the car we've got to
bring people in to, you know, tothe downtown and then move them
out.
And so there was a big visionthat this would be a progress,
but it actually destroyed somany downtowns and Poughkeepsie
really got beaten up.
(42:04):
So as you know, across thenation cities with more
resources have, you know, beenable to take those arts, same
arterial highway designs andturn them back into
bi-directional streets and, uh,you know, boulevards and, uh,
sometimes eliminate themaltogether.
(42:24):
Um, and you're seeing thosekinds of projects in Buffalo and
Hartford and elsewhere, but itgives you smaller and doesn't
have the resources quite to dothat.
So we need to build momentum.
We need to help peopleunderstand the damage these
highways did to the city and,and also, you know, render a
vision of what it would looklike if we got rid of them or if
we, you know, um, reduced theirsize and the arguments for them
(42:48):
are hilarious.
They're just straight out of akind of mid-century playbook.
Oh, we need to move throughfast.
So we need, you know, we don'twant traffic, you know, we, you
know, there's not enough parkingand these arguments really, um,
are not, actually, they're nottrue arguments.
I mean, you know, when you startto dig into the numbers and
(43:08):
Poughkeepsie has something like75% more parking than it needs,
right.
You start digging into the, asan urbanist or just sort of
looking at the numbers you say,Oh, wow, those are real issues.
It's the amount of their publicrealm committed to parking,
committed to highways could begiven back to the city for
(43:29):
development, for housing, forpublic and social services.
Uh, but we just need to kind ofmove those ideas along, um, uh,
together.
And so something that we've beenworking on trying to push
forward.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah.
Your, your effort toPoughkeepsie, uh, you know,
Chris kroner, uh, just terrific.
Uh, but you mentioned housing.
So I'm going to make this, mylast question, which is, there
is a desperate need foraffordable housing as an
architect.
Have you ever thought or spendtime saying what it could look
(44:03):
like?
So that communities, instead ofsaying, we don't want that
housing in our community andlet's face it, there's a history
of how to build it bad.
Um, but have you ever thoughtabout how to build it in a way
that people would go, wait,wait, wait, I blight that that's
really attractive.
(44:23):
It's interesting.
I know there are costs, elementsinvolved.
It has, I, I know that this isreally not in the, you know,
like the recent wall streetjournal article.
It's not in that you wouldn'tfind it there, but you're a
curious person in the sense thatyou think about lots of
different things.
Have you ever thought aboutaffordable housing?
Speaker 4 (44:42):
Oh yeah.
I mean, we're, we have an entireportfolio of affordable housing
that we're working on right now.
And, uh, we'll probably have ahalf a dozen projects that are
in on the boards.
And, um, our first, uh,initiative in Boston is under
construction is going to beunder construction this year.
Um, and we've been looking ataffordable housing in a number
(45:03):
of different ways.
Um, uh, but in particular, youknow, senior housing or aging in
place housing.
So housing that is wrappingaround services really with
specific, um, uh, social needsand embedding that within the
building itself.
And I think to your point, youknow, we often have, have given
(45:26):
affordable housing, a bad rapbecause we've designed it to be
as cheap as possible.
Absolutely.
The bare minimum cost to serve,you know, the, the most, um,
needy constituents.
And then once we need thehousing the most.
And I think that kind of devil'sbargain is really misplaced.
(45:47):
We, you know, theseorganizations great one in
Poughkeepsie and in Hudson riverhousing, you know, they're
fighting, fighting for grants orfighting for state dollars to
try to build better housing andserve the communities that need
it the most.
And they do a heroic job in ourcommunity, but every community
in a lot of communities, notevery County, a lot of counties
have these housing nonprofitswho are doing their best to
(46:10):
wrestle with very limitedresources to serve the under
housed and the, um, and thehomeless.
And, um, that's only increasedin the pandemic.
And of course, before that wasthe opioid pandemic, which also
increased our need for, um,housing.
And, um, the economic injusticesthat we're facing now is only
going to only further, uh,disenfranchise those in terms of
(46:35):
not just affordable, butappropriate housing for them.
So it's a huge design problem,but it's also a financial
problem.
You know, it's also aboutcreating new, um, uh, new
financial models and mechanismsof paying for, you know,
creative mechanisms to pay forhousing, which serves this
population, which isn't justbased on the current really, I'm
(47:00):
gonna say, um, it's notineffective the current system,
but it's just, it's notobviously meeting the need of
the tax incentives and, youknow, grant and grant support
and, um, and, and a basic, youknow, market-based strategy of
building affordable housing.
It's not really, it's clearlynot serving the need that's out
there.
So we need to come up with newfinancial structures, new models
(47:21):
of paying for this, this work,and then new designs, which
integrate, uh, affordable andmarket-based housing together,
Speaker 5 (47:30):
Uh, refill these downtown districts, which had
been abandoned.
I think there's an incredibleopportunity.
We're seeing this with themarket and Poughkeepsie is for
the first time in 50 years, likeexploding, you're seeing that
all of these old towns aroundthe, around the nation.
So it's an important moment.
I think, an opportunity that wecan take a hold of Michael
Murphy.
Thank you so much for your time.
(47:51):
Thank you for your creativity.
Thank you for your willingnessto take on issues that most
people would run from.
Um, we're, we're fortunate thatyou come from lots and Valley
and, um, we can share a littlebit in, in your, um, disruption
and creativity.
(48:11):
Disruption to me is a good word.
It's not a bad word, so thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you, John.
Thanks for all you all do.
It's really a pleasure to talkwith you and, um, you know, too
much, too much more excitingwork in the Hudson Valley in the
future.
Thanks for including me.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Thank you for tuning in to patterns and paradigms the
pattern podcast.
For more information about thisepisode, visit our website
pattern for progress.org forwardslash podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.