May 21, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of 'Paws, Reflect, and Heal', Dr. Kevin Toman and I discuss our parallel journeys in veterinary medicine, while exploring the shift from traditional Western medicine to holistic practices, the significance of wellness and longevity in veterinary care, and the evolving role of telemedicine in providing accessible veterinary services. We talk about how it's necessary to build strong relationships with pet owners and the impact of lifestyle choices on pet health. We also explore the challenges of navigating veterinary prescriptions in a telemedicine context and delve into the promising potential of rapamycin as a longevity drug for pets.
Main Takeaways to Note
- Curcumin is a natural remedy with proven benefits.
- Veterinarians need to focus on long-term wellness rather than just immediate problem-solving.
- Telemedicine is becoming an essential tool in veterinary care.
- Building relationships with pet owners is crucial for effective care.
- The importance of a holistic view of health applies to both pets and their owners. There is a significant need for trust between pet parents and veterinarians.
- Veterinarians should provide written assessments to pet parents after consultations.
- Rapamycin shows promise in extending pet longevity and improving health outcomes.
- Understanding the quality and efficacy of supplements is vital for pet health.
- Passion and dedication in veterinary care can significantly impact pet health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 02 (00:00):
And you know, when I said, well, you know, we we
want to check a little bit ofblood work, possibly get some
some some radiographs or somex-rays, uh sometimes they look
at me a scale and go, like,well, I thought you were a
natural veterinarian.
I go, you know, I'm anintegrated veterinarian.
And I do the same reminder thatyou do that um we utilize all
the I utilize all the tools.
And uh there's definite placefor a lot of this to happen, uh,
(00:22):
but there are certainly placesfor the things, the other
things, the other options thatwe can offer, which is really
neat.
Welcome everybody to PAWSReflect & Heal with Dr.
Randy.
Uh we have a great podcastepisode coming towards you
(00:43):
today.
Um I I told this guy, actually,I it was a misspelling on my
email to him, but I told himthat I think he's a brother from
a different mother.
And uh only because our ourlives in veterinary medicine had
very parallel courses, um, butI'm very excited to introduce
you to Dr.
Kevin Toman.
Um he is going to give you hisa little bit of his background
(01:05):
and bio, and we're gonna talk uha lot about integrative
medicine, um, quite a bit aboutsome new uh things coming down
the pike that you really shouldknow about.
Uh and uh, you know, we alwayswe we remind you that you can
answer uh we can answer anyquestions you want on
drrandypetvet.com for myself orDr.
Toman.
And uh we also have uh Dr.
(01:27):
Toman's contact informationposted on this when we get their
show notes up.
Kevin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 00 (01:33):
Well, thank you very much, Dr.
Aronson.
I appreciate your time and yourknowledge.
Speaker 02 (01:37):
Uh just just let's do Randy, if that's okay.
Speaker 00 (01:40):
Okay, all right.
Randy works just fine.
And likewise, Kevin.
I mean, uh all my life I'vejust been known as Kevin, inside
the clinic and out.
And so perfectly okay with thatas well.
Speaker 02 (01:51):
Perfect.
Tell our listeners a little bitabout your uh your your past
and you know how you got intoveterinary medicine and kind of
what a little bit about yourpractice, and then we'll talk
about what's happening today.
Speaker 00 (02:02):
Okay.
Well, my name is Dr.
Kevin Toman.
I uh have been a veterinariansince the dark ages of 1986.
I graduated from UC Davis wayback when.
And it honestly it was the onlything I ever wanted to do.
I'm one of those guys, forbetter or for worse.
And once I got uh out of Davis,I spent some time up in uh the
(02:22):
hills of Northern California,then 20 years of Colorado for
uh, well, once I turned about 55or so, that snow was a little
bit less attractive to me.
So I moved back to the centralcoast of California because
snow's a lot less out here, andthis is where I've lived since
uh 2011.
Speaker 02 (02:40):
Beautiful area.
We love uh visiting that area.
We just had some friends thatgot married a little bit inland
um and just enjoyed the heck outof it.
So um, so you um you you and II graduated a little bit before
you, um, but not too much.
So I always tell people it'sbefore the light bulb was was
invented uh for us.
Um but I think we're parallelin the fact that I, you know,
(03:03):
it's really all I wanted to doalso.
Um I had uh went toundergraduate school in in um in
pre-med, and there were nopre-veterinarians at this
program, and everybody waswondering, oh, you know, you
must be going into veterinarymedicine because you don't
really like people.
And as you and I know, thatcouldn't have been farther from
the truth.
So uh I think the fact that youand I are doing this today
(03:27):
shows our our love for um ourour pet parents, but especially
our pets that we that we want totake care of.
So talk a little bit about umso in the early days, um,
probably like myself, you weredoing a lot of Western or
allopathic medicine.
What happened or where wasthere what was there a switch or
(03:48):
was there something that cameabout for you that said, you
know, I need to be looking alittle bit more outside the box?
Speaker 00 (03:54):
Well, uh I'll give you a little bit more detail.
And I actually started back uhwhen I first got out of school,
I was a large animalveterinarian, horses and cattle
primarily.
And yet I found that sometimesthe economics of the veterinary
profession uh dictating whethera pet, whether an animal
survived or not, that was prettydifficult for me to uh to live
(04:14):
with.
And so I uh gradually made atransition into small animal
clinic and have been happy thereever since.
In answer to your question, uhuh until about uh let me do the
math here, uh until about 2001or so, I was pretty much a
Western uh medicine guy.
You and I were likely trainedin the same way, for better or
(04:36):
for worse, because I can speakto some of the deficits in that
in the veterinary training thatI received anyway at UC Davis,
in particular, no dental uh careat all back in the day.
I mean, just none.
Uh, you know, no, and certainlyno no dental radiographs, none
of the things that you and Itake for granted as part of the
diagnostic workup these days.
And yet, in in to answer thatquestion of yours, um uh a few
(05:01):
years ago, 15, well, a littlebit longer, but 17 or 18 years
ago now, uh spent a lot of timein the gym, went in for routine
blood work, Randy, and mycreatine was a little elevated.
And so my GP at that point intime in rural Colorado uh
ordered a full blood panel ofand including serum
electrophoresis, and come tofind out I had a uh
(05:23):
pre-malignant disease called uhmonoclonal gamopathy of, quote,
unknown significance, MGUS.
And that is a precursor for uhthe fatal cancer myeloma.
And so you can imagine it tookme uh took took my attention and
uh I ended up working through alot of diagnostics because I
(05:43):
was being told by the local docsthat I did have myeloma, and I
self-referred down to a mayoclinic in Scottsdale, Arizona,
and went through a completeworkup, including bone marrow
biopsy down there, and foundthat this was in fact a
precursor, but not a malignancy.
And the interesting part ofthis, I'm circling back around
to your question, there's onlyone substance that has been
(06:06):
proven to help slow thetransition of this MGUS
precursor into myeloma, andthat's a natural herb called
curcumin.
There are no chemotherapydrugs, there are no allopathic
drugs, no Western medicines thatare uh that are proven to work.
And so that that was my uh thatopened the door into
(06:29):
integrative therapy for mebecause all of a sudden, you
know, the antibiotics, theanesthetics, the things that you
and I have in our back pocketall day long had been proven
ineffective.
And in their place was uh anatural herb that had been used
for centuries uh by by differentcivilizations.
And so that that kind ofcracked the door open into
(06:50):
herbal medicine, and then fromthere I expanded into uh an
acupuncture practice, a laserpractice, and and eventually
into prescription longevitydrugs, which is where your path
and mine uh crossed.
Speaker 02 (07:03):
Really cool.
And you know, it's amazing howfor for for many of us um it's
really uh kind of like you haddescribed uh self-necessity or
self-awareness to kind of lookoutside the box when something
comes up.
I didn't have quite that umthat bit of a journey.
Um I uh just to give you alittle background, for me, uh I
(07:26):
was practicing um after um I Ispent a year um I graduated Penn
and then I spent a year doing arotating internship in medicine
and surgery.
I also went there thinking Iwas gonna be an equine surgeon
until I saw the economics ofwhat happened with racehorses
and how insurance money deemedeverything.
And it was just not why I wentinto vending medicine.
(07:48):
So after that year internshipand uh in medicine and surgery,
I went to the Animal MedicalCenter in New York City.
Um the reason for me is I'm I'ma visual learner, I can read 10
times.
If I see something once, I'mgood.
And so, you know, having 60,000cases a year uh was amazing,
and I was doing endoscopy andlaparoscopy there, which was
(08:10):
really fun.
Um But I got out to to Tucson,which is where I ended up uh
starting my practice, and Iprobably it was about 10 years
into the practice that Irealized for me that all I was
doing was putting out fires.
Um I could be I was a greatdiagnostician.
I I'm I'm not you know givingmyself any any you know rubs on
(08:30):
the back, but it was I was doinggreat.
I mean I I was far above whatwas out in medicine at the time
just because of my training.
Uh but um I didn't feel like Iwas getting anywhere towards
wellness and especially nothealth span or longevity.
So um heard about this guy,Andrew Weill in Tucson.
Dr.
Weil is uh you know a veryfamous MD that really started
(08:54):
laying the groundwork forlooking at herbal medicine and
Chinese herbs.
And and I um I went and gottraining in Albuquerque for uh
what I thought was addingChinese herbs to my practice,
only to learn I had to learnChinese medicine, which was
another whole paradigm shift inmy life, uh, which led to the
acupuncture certification andherbal certification, and then
(09:16):
from there um rehabcertification because of you
know what I saw my practice as anecessity for a lot of our
senior pets and and obviouslyrecoveries from surgeries and
whatnot.
So it was a great pathway, uh,but it really took a long time,
and I'm sure, like yourself, youknow, there was a lot of
reticence from the veterinarycommunity about what was going
(09:38):
on.
I I actually um to kind ofprove my point, started this
radio show in Tucson, went for10 years on Saturdays for two
hours asking QA, and most of itwas what you and I know about
basically, you know, how comemethylcobalamine helps the
bowel?
Or, you know, why am I, youknow, and and then you know,
basically pet owners would go totheir their veterinarians and
(10:01):
they'd be calling me and saying,like, well, what are you
telling this person?
You know, I don't even knowanything about this.
Yeah.
So it was an educationalprocess, but uh well worth it.
I mean, obviously.
And and then, you know, I I'msure for you started seeing some
amazing results in practice.
You know, things that I couldnot put my finger on.
You know, we were I I had thisongoing argument with the
(10:25):
oncologist here in town about uhusing um turkey tail for
mastell tumors.
And I told her that it workedas well as prednisone.
I just I kept on harping on it.
And then like five years intothis argument between the two of
us, Penn releases a study onturkey tail versus prednisone,
and that you know the resultswere equal, you know.
(10:46):
So uh it's nice, I think, forboth of us to have things borne
out.
But I think like you probably,and and I and I'd love you to
address this, the proof isseeing the benefit to our pet
payer you know, patients.
I mean, to see what we can doum to help them, especially not
only to work on disease, butalso on longevity health span
(11:09):
and wellness.
Speaker 00 (11:10):
Yeah, I could approach that in a couple
different ways.
Number one, um, I think as youpointed out, most veterinarians
are very good at solvingproblems.
Uh, you know, if if Annabelle,my my my aforementioned
11-month-old golden retriever,comes in with a uh a cut pad,
you and I are very good atsewing that up.
If she gets parable, we're verygood day in and day out at
(11:32):
solving that.
But what we aren't so good atis trying to develop a plan, uh
an integrated plan that looksdown the road and says, well,
how do I help this 11-month-oldgolden retriever as an example?
A breed that we know isabsolutely prone to cancer,
absolutely prone to orthopedicdisease, absolutely prone to
allergies.
How do I help that dog or thatpatient live their very best
(11:54):
life?
And what I found early on wasthat people were coming to me
because they had heard that Iwas a natural doc, a natural
naturopath.
And one of the first things Itold them was, well, in fact,
that's incorrect.
You know, um, I listen, I dobelieve in the value of herbal
therapy.
I do believe in the value of aclass four laser, but I also
(12:16):
believe in the value of surgeryand steroids and and you know,
the occasional vaccine.
It's just that in I think thatmany folks, whether they be
veterinarians, whether they bepet owners, tend to limit
themselves to one approach ortwo approaches and think that
they're doing all they can fortheir pet.
And when I'm asked thosequestions, I start waving my
(12:38):
arms around and say, well, youknow, we can use uh uh immune
suppressants over here, we canuse the turkey tail mushrooms
over here, we can cut thatrascal out.
You know, I mean there'sthere's a lot of different ways
to approach wellness for a pet.
And in in general terms, I liketo think, you know, it's the
same approach to wellness that Iuse.
You know, I I try to stay inshape, I try to eat right day in
(13:00):
and day out.
Um I'm not opposed to taking uhallopathic medicines, but I'm
also taking the prescriptionlongevity drugs that you and I
might get around to at somepoint in time.
I take herbal medications aswell.
And so I think it's a uh it's atotal lifestyle.
And I think that as, you know,I'm 65 at this point in time,
(13:20):
and as folks of our demographicuh kind of grow up, Randy, you
know, and and and maybe facemortality, um, all of a sudden,
you know, I think it's there'sincreasing interest, I think, in
in taking uh an integrated andall-encompassing view of our own
health, and that translatesvery well to our pet patients.
Speaker 02 (13:40):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And you know, I think on on thepersonal note, I'm on this very
similar pathway.
I mean, I love I I work outthree days a week in in the gym.
I actually have a gym in my hamy garage.
Um but I and I also bike threedays a week.
And um and I found that um evenjust recently, this is kind of
an interesting personal thing, Idon't mind being transparent,
(14:02):
but um, you know, I wasn'tfeeling that well.
There was a lot of pain andaches that I didn't feel like
should have been normal, and Iwasn't going to take um, you
know, a lot of the pain typemedications and whatnot.
And reached uh found a doctorwho I think like uh a guy named
Peter Utia that many of ourlisteners may know about
practices what I call medicine3.0, and that is really being
(14:25):
proactive about, you know, Irealized that after doing a DEXA
scan, I had way too muchvisceral fat.
Uh I was eating too many carbs.
And you know, after thatnutritional recycle for me and
um and and kind of doing a lotof biohacks, some biohacks, and
and obviously raphamycin, whichwe're gonna talk about in a
(14:47):
little bit, uh it's beenamazing.
Uh you know, I lost uh 25pounds.
Uh I feel so much better.
And this is kind of what I lookat for my pet uh patients,
because uh many times I have adog that's coming in uh for most
of my cases now, my practice ormy telemedicine cases are all
(15:08):
second and third opinions.
So I have a dog that you knowis a golden retriever who's
gotten to 10 years old, but he'shaving a very hard time getting
up.
Uh he's um he's not he doesn'tseem to be feeling well, he's
maybe a little bit more grumpyor aggressive.
And um I think my clients startthey're a little bit amazed in
(15:29):
the fact that the first thing Italk about is diet and and uh
supplements.
And we talk a little bit aboutsome of the other things like
like you mentioned class fourlaser, we have PEMF, which is
post-electric magnetic therapy,we have underwater treadmills,
um, trying to get these guysinto uh a situation where you
know I make them aware that thedog is obese and and needs to
(15:52):
lose weight body score, youknow, of seven and needs to be
at five.
Uh and all of a suddeneverything starts getting
better.
Uh and and the you know, thepet parent just is like so
thrilled, and of course I'malways so thrilled to see what's
going on.
Uh, and then I've added somenewer things and we can talk
about in a little bit using uhmicrobiome work uh that has
(16:13):
really been impressive with someof the allergy looking, you
know, looking at some of theallergy stuff.
Uh, and it's been great.
It's been just been a godsend.
Speaker 00 (16:23):
Yeah, I understand.
And uh, you know, one of thethings that you and I spoke of
before is the fact that many petparents have a tendency to
reach towards the the newestshiny object, you know, the uh
whatever whatever is in the newsuh as a basis for their pet's
health care.
And the reality is so often itcomes back down to the basics,
uh the same things that you andI speak of, whether it be
(16:44):
exercise or nutrition or for forsmall dogs and kitties, the you
know, the dental care that uhthat eliminates both pain and
long-term inflammation, youknow, and the old in the larger
dogs paying a little bit moreattention to orthopedics or
alpha allergic disease, uh, youknow, early cancer detection,
etc.
And some of these things arevery simple to take care of and
(17:06):
and oftentimes very cheap.
But the reality is that um theyplay a vital role for our pet
parents and keeping our theirpets healthy.
Speaker 02 (17:13):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Um talk a little bit about umso you uh I know you you had a
um a practice that you had soldnot not that long ago.
Um how what did you see as faras where you were going with
with this?
I mean, did you visualize youbeing um in uh the longevity
(17:34):
space?
Did you visualize this being atelemedicine consult kind of
thing for you to happen and andand exactly like tell our
listeners what you're doing now?
That would be great.
Speaker 00 (17:43):
Well, it's it's been an evolution.
I um I'm kind of a serialentrepreneur, and so uh through
the years, and uh you know, Ikind of migrated to wherever
wherever there were either wavesor trap.
That was kind of one of thedefining uh uh uh uh
characteristics of the placesthat I used to live.
And so I I came to San LuisObispo when I got tired of the
(18:05):
snow and and built uh what atthat point in time was a just a
one-dock practice and and grewit to uh a five, five and a half
doc practice and you know 25,30 some odd employees.
And I just um uh and and thento be candid with you, uh that
was back in in 2018, and and asyou probably know, that was kind
(18:26):
of the beginning of the privateequity move, the venture
capital move into veterinarymedicine.
And and I could talk at lengthabout that um from both a pro
but also a lot of cons.
And the reality is that I wasmade that proverbial offer that
I could not refuse.
We had kind of a little bit ofa referral uh practice going on
(18:46):
at that point in time, and so wehad a pretty good reputation,
and and I just knew that uh asmy practice enlarged, I was
losing one of the things thatmattered most to me, and that
was the the contact with theindividual.
You know, I spent more time asan administrator, I guess, at
the end of the day, to cut youknow, to get right to the chase
here.
(19:06):
I spent more time doing thepaperwork and keeping the
hospital running than thansolving things, you know, and uh
that's one of the things thatthat I hold hold myself to be as
a little bit of a fixer.
And uh I had lost thatcomponent of my day-to-day work,
and so I just uh I took thatoffer that I could not receive,
or could not uh turn down, Ishould say.
(19:28):
And that freed me up to goahead and explore the part of
veterinary medicine that Ireally love, which is building
that relationship, building thatone-on-one relationship with an
individual pet parent, andbeing able to say, listen, I'm
gonna follow your pet, not justfor the days associated with uh,
you know, a vaccine or asurgical procedure, but for for
(19:49):
weeks or months or years in aneffort to really provide them
the very best care.
And these days, you know,California has incrementally
liberalized their uh theirtelemedicine uh statutes as a
result probably of COVID.
And I'm trying to take fulladvantage of that because you
know we were laughing about it.
Um I've I was talking withanother uh pretty savvy
(20:13):
individual um about businessdevelopment, and he said, you
know, really one of the thingswe're trying to do is
democratize veterinary medicine.
And that sounds kind of funny,but not everybody lives in in
the Tucsons or or Phoenixes orSan Fernando Valleys, the San
Luis Obispo of the world.
I mean, some folks live in uhin the wise river, Montanas, or
(20:34):
the Scow Vegans, Mains.
And I think that telemedicine,the access to a veterinarian
like yourself who really caresabout not just solving a
problem, but about trying tobuild a longevity plan for this
particular patient, can make allthe difference in the world in
today's uh internet age, whereyou know, social media isn't you
you can get opinions all over,but what you can't develop is a
(20:57):
relationship with somebody.
And that that is my goal uhwith some of the things that I'm
doing right now.
Speaker 02 (21:03):
Uh it's you know, couldn't have said it better.
I mean that's that's amazingthat um you know uh again, I I
think the evolution for both ofus was very similar.
Um I do remind my clients, likeyou know, we used to get
initially people come in andsay, Well, I just want
acupuncture for my dog.
And I go, Well, I I can do theacupuncture, but let's just see
(21:24):
what the situation is here sothat we can figure out why we're
doing that or what thenecessity or what our plan is.
Like you said, planning isalways very important.
And you know, when I said,Well, you know, we we want to
check a little bit of bloodwork, possibly get some some
some radiographs or some x-rays,uh sometimes they look at me as
you and go, like, well, Ithought you were a natural
veterinarian.
I go, you know, I'm anintegrated veterinarian.
(21:46):
And I do the same reminder thatyou do that um we utilize all
the I utilize all the tools.
And um there is definite placefor a lot of this to happen, uh,
but there are certainly placesfor the things, the other
things, the other options thatwe can offer, which is really
neat.
Um so so um you sold thepractice, you started um this um
(22:08):
was it beginning intelemedicine?
Is that how it started for you?
Or or was it?
Speaker 00 (22:13):
No, I was uh kind of the uh mail order practice uh
mail order, you know, basicallyjust selling supplements back in
the day.
Uh because you know, I I I tookmy initial interest in curcumin
and and really did the researchnecessary to kind of um find
you know without putting a salesspin on it.
I I I did the researchnecessary to find what I thought
(22:34):
were the very best ingredients,the very most effective
ingredients around.
And there's there's a lot ofsmoke and mirrors in the pet
supplement world, you know, alot of marketing um spin by
folks that have never set footinto a veterinary clinic.
And what I tried to do is tooffer folks a little bit
different approach.
And I tried to look at things,you know, I I I don't I don't
(22:55):
sell, I don't even talk aboutthings that don't have any
science behind them.
You know, I think the really aPubMed study or two is kind of
the entry, the the door throughwhich any supplement has to
strive before I'll I'll have alook at it.
And I think that uh uh therethere was there was a need.
People were receptive to that.
Uh and you know, I I agree thatbusiness one person at a time.
(23:18):
You know, there are some somelean times uh to go along with
it, but the reality is that uhnow we seem to have developed a
little bit of word of mouth,folks that are kind of uh that
the type of medicine that youpractice resonates with them,
and and so uh much like you,there's there's a receptive
audience out there.
Speaker 02 (23:37):
So talk a little bit to our listeners um about one,
how people find you andbasically kind of what your
goals are going forward fromwhere you are right now.
Speaker 00 (23:50):
Well, again, I I don't want to make this uh an
advertisement for myself.
Speaker 02 (23:54):
I'm asking.
I'm asking.
Speaker 00 (23:56):
Yeah, okay.
Well, I run I run a couple ofuh websites.
I guess um the the one thatmost folks know me through is
just helpingpets livelonger.com.
And on that uh there's a mix ofof both prescription longevity
drugs uh that are availablethrough by prescription from
other veterinarians or after aconsult with me.
Uh some of the provensupplements that we've
(24:17):
discussed.
And then I'm I'm really tryingto expand the consult part of
things because I think there issuch a need for pet parents to
develop a relationship withsomebody that they can trust,
somebody who's in this not justfor days or weeks, but for the
long term.
So that you know, there'sthere's nothing more satisfying
to me, uh Randy, than uh, youknow, seeing a uh you know the
(24:39):
puppy, the proverbial puppy thatyou and I take care of.
Uh, you know, we can givevaccines, eight, twelve, sixteen
weeks of age or whatever, guidethem through middle age and and
eventually, you know, approachpalliative care with them and
sometimes get you know the nextgeneration of pets uh coming.
And and that to me is is reallywhy I got into veterinary
medicine.
And so um I I acknowledge thefact that you know there are
(25:03):
many supplement uh suppliers outthere, and and that field's
probably gonna get a little bitmore crowded over time, as you
and I've talked about.
But one thing I don't thinkwill ever get uh get too crowded
is the ability to look somebodyin the eye, even if it's on
Zoom, and say, listen, you know,this this is this is what I
think we need to do.
This is this is how you and I,by working together, can help
(25:24):
our pet.
And I and I think that's veryimportant.
Speaker 02 (25:27):
I do too.
Well said.
And um I you know theinteresting thing um that I uh
allude to a lot of my uh petparents when they come to see me
is a lot of what you said asfar as the the you know what
what they're picking as far assupplements and why and and you
know, uh many, many times I Irefer to Google, Dr.
(25:49):
Google as the N of one.
Meaning like, you know, I hadthis golden retriever, it had
this, and I gave this, and it,you know, this is the best
product in the world.
You know, this Dr.
Google's an N of one, andpeople like you and I have N of
hundreds.
And we look at, you know, thetumor products, let's say, that
are out there, or the curcuminproducts that are out there, and
know how it's made and know thequality and know the efficacy.
(26:11):
Same with the othersupplements.
And I'm with you.
I I you know I um I I thinkwithout any kind of research or
or back background, um, I'm moreapt to be a little skeptical
until proven otherwise.
And um I think that reallyhelps.
Um do you do a lot of yourtelemedicine cases by Zoom or do
you do mostly phone calls, orhow does that work for you?
Speaker 00 (26:34):
I try to do Zoom calls where I can.
And the reality is that I Ilike to look at the yeah at the
parent, pet parents that I'mtalking with.
I like to be able to look at apet, you know, as goofy as that
sounds, you know, becausesometimes what what a pet parent
will say uh will describesometimes uh is different uh is
(26:55):
looks different to me.
Looks different to me, youknow.
Uh whether it be a pet beinglame on on one leg, you know,
and maybe they maybe they turnout to be painful on another, or
you and I might describe uh anarea of baldness or or hair loss
or the like a little bitdifferently than a pet parent
will.
And so in in answer to your indirect answer to your question,
(27:17):
I start with a four-page pethealth questionnaire that I
would ask you to fill out.
Uh, you know, where did you getyour pet?
What is their lifestyle like?
I mean, when when they gooutside, where do they spend
time?
How many pets, how many otheranimals do they come in contact
with?
Uh, you know, we discuss uh youknow preventive care, et
cetera, you know, the heartworm,the flea and tick medications,
(27:38):
et cetera.
And and then I get veryspecific, you know, what is your
specific concern?
You know, what have you triedin the past?
What are you what uh what hasyour local veterinarian helped?
And and if uh I mean, do youhave problems with your local
veterinarian?
Is there something that youfeel like you guys just simply
aren't connecting with?
Uh, because all that is vitalinformation if you're really
trying to get to the bottom ofthings.
(27:59):
And and then I I do ask for thelast two years of a PET's
veterinary records as well,including all images and lab
work, just to get a handle on onwhat has gone on.
And then the third component ofthat of that three-legged stool
is is in fact trying to set upa Zoom call.
Speaker 02 (28:16):
Perfect.
It sounds great.
Yeah, so you you know thatthat's the thing that I think a
lot of people like to know isthat um, you know, Dr.
Tolman going in is welleducated on what's going on with
your pet and and basically whatyou're looking for, and and can
think about what the optionsmight be laid out after that's
all assessed, which is great.
Yeah, I think that's reallyimportant.
Speaker 00 (28:37):
Um Yeah, and again, and I will and I'm I'm sorry
Randy to interrupt you, but Ishould mention that the other
part of things that that I'vedone even in veterinary practice
is uh I'm I made a habit.
I I've I uh I forced all thesepoor doctors that worst worked
with me.
We always uh sent a writtenletter home for every every sick
(29:00):
pet that we saw, sick orinjured pet.
Now, this is not the standardyou know Spay or Newter uh
post-op instructions, but um Ibelieve pet parents are entitled
to to that written umexplanation of lab work, to to
an idea as to uh a written ideaas to prognosis or what the next
step is.
Because listen, when I go to mydentist or when I go to a
(29:22):
doctor, you know, I listen likehell.
You know, I'm I'm I'm payingattention just to the I'm paying
rapt attention.
But then I get home and Ithink, hmm, what what exactly
was said there?
And so that's part of it, whatthat's part of my philosophy
around these consults, too, isthat at the end of the day, uh a
pet parent will get anywherebetween a page and and sometimes
(29:45):
two or three pages of a writtenassessment of their pet's
health, not just where they'reat right now, but what uh where
they're headed, in my opinion.
Speaker 02 (29:53):
Perfect.
Perfect.
Um do these um do yourtelemedicine consults are they
usually are like an hour inlength or
Speaker 00 (30:00):
Is there any specific time frame or yeah,
well the the uh uh the homeworkis done ahead of that.
Sure.
But yeah, then then the theZoom consults themselves are set
up on the hour.
Perfect.
Um so yeah, I I try to givefolks just as much as much time
and room as they need to runwith this.
Speaker 02 (30:17):
How do you get around the um the issue?
I often get this question onmedicine, um, actual
prescriptions of medicine whenyou're doing these.
Speaker 00 (30:26):
Um Well, uh, you know, I I can prescribe within
within the the state ofCalifornia, but the reality is
that outside the state, um, youknow, that uh current veterinary
laws, whether they and you andI could talk all day long about
some of this, to be candid withyou, but uh current veterinary
(30:47):
laws prevent uh a veterinarianfrom prescribing outside their
their state.
And so uh, you know, I try towork with local veterinarians,
and many times, you know, peoplealready have a cabinet full of
medications, it's that they'renot quite sure how to use them
or when to use them.
And so there are a lot ofdifferent ways to to work with
that, but I'm not it I want tobe absolutely clear.
(31:10):
My goal is not to alienate oror to uh ostracize the local
vet.
My goal is to is to doeverything we can.
Again, you know, work work withspecialists.
Uh, you know, I have a littlespecialist network that you and
I can talk a little bit moreabout.
Uh uh so I try to bringspecialists in as needed, but
work with a local vet.
Sometimes, you know, the rehabvets, the physical therapy
(31:32):
folks, in an effort to establisha healthcare team for these
pets, a healthcare team insteadof a one-man band.
Speaker 02 (31:39):
Perfect.
Perfect, perfect.
Um, let's take a little time,if you don't mind, um, and talk
about rapamycin and and how thiscame about for you and and kind
of what you see it situationand and what it looks like in
the future.
Speaker 00 (31:55):
Okay.
Well, yeah, rapamycin isprobably the single most widely
studied and widely usedprescription longevity drug in
the world right now.
Um, you know, and as as a lotof folks realize, it came into
human medicine actually as animmune suppressant, and in
particular for uh for transplantmedicine.
But what they found is that atlower doses it had pretty
(32:18):
profound uh metabolic benefits.
And at this point, uh I I thinkI can say categorically that it
has extended life in everyspecies study to date, and in
mammal species, uh typically byabout four uh by up to about 14%
or so.
And of course, that anythingthat extends life by what could
(32:39):
be a you know up to a decade forfor a schmo like you or me, um,
or you know, a year, a year anda half, or two years for a pet.
Now, listen, there are noguarantees.
I don't think any medicationworks for everybody, but the
potential for actually a safeintervention uh into helping our
pets or helping ourselves livelonger, I mean, that's awful
(33:00):
appealing for a lot of folks,uh, folks like me.
Speaker 01 (33:02):
Sure.
Speaker 00 (33:03):
And so I began using rapamycin in my clinical
practice back in 2016, 2017,primarily in an oncology
setting, because you and I bothknow that um it's difficult
sometimes to uh to have anoncologist or have a general uh
GP doc just say, Oh, there'snothing you can do.
(33:23):
And there's pretty compellinguh studies in human medicine for
a variety of differentdiseases, lymphomas, the various
sarcomas of the world, mammarycancer, melanomas, uh in our
case, anal glandadenocarcinomas, the rapamycin
has has a benefit for thesepatients.
And I I saw some prettysubstantial results, um,
especially with melanoma, oralmelanomas, and the and anal
(33:47):
gland cancer.
And uh so uh based on that anda safety record, I eventually
began taking it myself in candorand then made that switch.
I mean, so many people um youknow the last thing in the world
that that a pet parent wants tohear is that your pet is
growing old and there is nothingwe can do.
There is nothing we can do.
(34:09):
And uh listen, there are a lotof lifestyle change uh uh
components to this, as you'vealready alluded to.
There's a lot of standard medicmedical uh therapies like
dental care or you know,sometimes vaccines or whatever
that can that can help a pet.
But um if if you truly loveyour pet, like you and I do, or
like many, many pet parents do,uh, you'll stop at nothing.
(34:32):
You know, and and rapamycin hasbeen proven safe.
Uh, you know, the studiessupport its use uh uh for both
longevity and well, it haslongevity, it has anti-cancer
and anti-inflammatory benefits.
And I'm gonna talk a little bitmore about cardiac care in just
one minute.
And to this point, it's it'sbeen an off-label use for both
(34:54):
dogs and for cats.
But there was a study that cameout, uh put out by a company
called Trivium, an Irish uhveterinary uh products company
called Trivium, about a year anda half ago that showed that
rachamycin has the potential toslow, stop, and occasionally
even reverse a fatal cardiacdisease in kidneys known as
(35:15):
hypertrophic cardiomyopathy orHCM.
And why is this so important?
Well, because HCM is the singlemost common cardiac disease
that cats run into.
And I'm gonna be honest withyou, in the 40 years that I've
been in veterinary practice, upuntil now, it has been a uniform
death sentence.
If I told you that your cat hadHCM, it was equivalent to
(35:36):
telling you, go out and dig ahole.
Go out and dig a hole.
And now rapamycin is a safealternative that, again, does
not work for every cat, but Iwould tell you that in our hands
and in the cats that we've hadrechecked by uh echo exam by
veterinary cardiologists, aboutthree-quarters of those cats
have either stabilized or in afew instances, 10 to 15 percent,
(35:58):
actually improved.
And this is borne out by astudy that uh by a wider study
that has been done at and Ithink completed at this point at
North Carolina StateUniversity.
And so it's a fascinating timeto be uh a veterinarian who's
interested in longevity medicinebecause in in addition to the
(36:18):
lifestyle and the herbalsupplements and and uh the
physical therapy that uh thatyou and I are very versed in,
now we have a a whole differentuh a whole different arm of
medicine.
We have a totally different wayto help our pet parents uh help
their pets live longer.
And that's pretty that's prettyexciting to me.
Speaker 02 (36:38):
Absolutely.
Um we're kind of running out oftime, and I'm really sad
because I think we have I haveso much more that I wanted to
talk to you about.
Hopefully, maybe we could dothis again.
Um if that would be okay withyou.
Um is there anything you wantto leave uh our listeners with?
Anything new on the horizon foryou or anything changing?
Uh of course, I'm gonna haveall your contact information if
(36:59):
our listeners want to uh want toget a hold of Dr.
Tolman, want to get atelemedicine uh consult set up.
Um but any any uh any closingthoughts, Kevin, at all?
Speaker 00 (37:10):
No, not really.
I just appreciate uh Iappreciate your work and the
skill and time that you broughtinto veterinary medicine because
I can tell you that uh peoplewith your passion, people with
with your dedication to uh tohealing pets, I mean, they're
rare in our profession.
I mean sometimes it's easy totake it take the easy way out,
(37:30):
sometimes it's easy to limityourself to to what you were
taught in school 20 or 30 or 40years ago.
And it seems like you're on thecutting edge of all this.
And so I think that uh youryour clients, your pet parents
are very lucky to have you aspart of their healthcare team.
Speaker 02 (37:44):
Well, and back at you because I, you know, after I
got to to know a little bitabout you and and especially
with this conversation, I'm soimpressed.
I mean, I I you know uh I'm alittle older than you are, but
the two of us are still kickingand and wanting to do this, and
the passion is really there.
One of the things I thoughtabout is uh at some point it'd
be fun uh for you and I to gospeak somewhere and and do
(38:06):
something like this in inperson.
Uh we can reach out to some youknow pet organizations or
whatever, but it would be reallykind of cool to kind of uh
piggyback off of each otherbecause I think it works
amazingly well.
So uh maybe we can pull thatoff.
Speaker 00 (38:20):
Yeah, you know, I've often thought that there was
room to establish kind of a petlongevity conference, and it's
it's funny that um uh I I cameacross uh a human longevity.
I try to pay a lot of attentionto some of the human longevity
conferences, and there was onein um in Switzerland, and I
think it was Lucerne or or or uhdon't quote me on Lucerne, but
(38:41):
the reality is that uh there wasa human uh uh longevity summit
in Switzerland that you and Ijust missed.
It just happened this lastweek.
And their statement is thatthey're putting together a pet
longevity summit in Switzerlandfor next summer.
And so yeah, there's uh that'sthat's an intriguing thought, my
friend.
It's an intriguing thought.
Speaker 02 (39:02):
It'd be it would be a nice trip and uh we could uh
we could have fun kind kind oflaying out the the pathwork for
our our our pet parents and andfor people that would listen.
Kevin, I can't thank you enoughum again for all that you do.
Um I do have um definitely havesome some rapamycing people who
want to talk to you and and umI you know I um I want to keep
(39:24):
on I as in in all transparency Ialso take it.
Um I only I don't have my dogson it at this point, but I'm I'm
working towards that.
Um had a little trouble with itprescription wise.
I I will bounce that off ofyou, I think.
Um but uh um I really reallyappreciate all that you've done.
And um it is uh for ourlisteners, this is really
(39:45):
cutting edge stuff.
Um spread the word, check outDr.
Thoman on his website, uhcontact him if you'd like to
have a telemedicine consult, uh,and um we'll come back with
with more uh Pause ReflectingHeel soon.
Kevin, thanks again, buddy.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 00 (40:01):
All right, Dr.
Andrew, have a great day.
And you know, when I said, well, you know, we we
want to check a little bit ofblood work, possibly get some
some some radiographs or somex-rays, uh sometimes they look
at me a scale and go, like,well, I thought you were a
natural veterinarian.
I go, you know, I'm anintegrated veterinarian.
And I do the same reminder thatyou do that um we utilize all
the I utilize all the tools.
And uh there's definite placefor a lot of this to happen, uh,
(00:22):
but there are certainly placesfor the things, the other
things, the other options thatwe can offer, which is really
neat.
Welcome everybody to PAWSReflect & Heal with Dr.
Randy.
Uh we have a great podcastepisode coming towards you
(00:43):
today.
Um I I told this guy, actually,I it was a misspelling on my
email to him, but I told himthat I think he's a brother from
a different mother.
And uh only because our ourlives in veterinary medicine had
very parallel courses, um, butI'm very excited to introduce
you to Dr.
Kevin Toman.
Um he is going to give you hisa little bit of his background
(01:05):
and bio, and we're gonna talk uha lot about integrative
medicine, um, quite a bit aboutsome new uh things coming down
the pike that you really shouldknow about.
Uh and uh, you know, we alwayswe we remind you that you can
answer uh we can answer anyquestions you want on
drrandypetvet.com for myself orDr.
Toman.
And uh we also have uh Dr.
(01:27):
Toman's contact informationposted on this when we get their
show notes up.
Kevin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 00 (01:33):
Well, thank you very much, Dr.
Aronson.
I appreciate your time and yourknowledge.
Speaker 02 (01:37):
Uh just just let's do Randy, if that's okay.
Speaker 00 (01:40):
Okay, all right.
Randy works just fine.
And likewise, Kevin.
I mean, uh all my life I'vejust been known as Kevin, inside
the clinic and out.
And so perfectly okay with thatas well.
Speaker 02 (01:51):
Perfect.
Tell our listeners a little bitabout your uh your your past
and you know how you got intoveterinary medicine and kind of
what a little bit about yourpractice, and then we'll talk
about what's happening today.
Speaker 00 (02:02):
Okay.
Well, my name is Dr.
Kevin Toman.
I uh have been a veterinariansince the dark ages of 1986.
I graduated from UC Davis wayback when.
And it honestly it was the onlything I ever wanted to do.
I'm one of those guys, forbetter or for worse.
And once I got uh out of Davis,I spent some time up in uh the
(02:22):
hills of Northern California,then 20 years of Colorado for
uh, well, once I turned about 55or so, that snow was a little
bit less attractive to me.
So I moved back to the centralcoast of California because
snow's a lot less out here, andthis is where I've lived since
uh 2011.
Speaker 02 (02:40):
Beautiful area.
We love uh visiting that area.
We just had some friends thatgot married a little bit inland
um and just enjoyed the heck outof it.
So um, so you um you you and II graduated a little bit before
you, um, but not too much.
So I always tell people it'sbefore the light bulb was was
invented uh for us.
Um but I think we're parallelin the fact that I, you know,
(03:03):
it's really all I wanted to doalso.
Um I had uh went toundergraduate school in in um in
pre-med, and there were nopre-veterinarians at this
program, and everybody waswondering, oh, you know, you
must be going into veterinarymedicine because you don't
really like people.
And as you and I know, thatcouldn't have been farther from
the truth.
So uh I think the fact that youand I are doing this today
(03:27):
shows our our love for um ourour pet parents, but especially
our pets that we that we want totake care of.
So talk a little bit about umso in the early days, um,
probably like myself, you weredoing a lot of Western or
allopathic medicine.
What happened or where wasthere what was there a switch or
(03:48):
was there something that cameabout for you that said, you
know, I need to be looking alittle bit more outside the box?
Speaker 00 (03:54):
Well, uh I'll give you a little bit more detail.
And I actually started back uhwhen I first got out of school,
I was a large animalveterinarian, horses and cattle
primarily.
And yet I found that sometimesthe economics of the veterinary
profession uh dictating whethera pet, whether an animal
survived or not, that was prettydifficult for me to uh to live
(04:14):
with.
And so I uh gradually made atransition into small animal
clinic and have been happy thereever since.
In answer to your question, uhuh until about uh let me do the
math here, uh until about 2001or so, I was pretty much a
Western uh medicine guy.
You and I were likely trainedin the same way, for better or
(04:36):
for worse, because I can speakto some of the deficits in that
in the veterinary training thatI received anyway at UC Davis,
in particular, no dental uh careat all back in the day.
I mean, just none.
Uh, you know, no, and certainlyno no dental radiographs, none
of the things that you and Itake for granted as part of the
diagnostic workup these days.
And yet, in in to answer thatquestion of yours, um uh a few
(05:01):
years ago, 15, well, a littlebit longer, but 17 or 18 years
ago now, uh spent a lot of timein the gym, went in for routine
blood work, Randy, and mycreatine was a little elevated.
And so my GP at that point intime in rural Colorado uh
ordered a full blood panel ofand including serum
electrophoresis, and come tofind out I had a uh
(05:23):
pre-malignant disease called uhmonoclonal gamopathy of, quote,
unknown significance, MGUS.
And that is a precursor for uhthe fatal cancer myeloma.
And so you can imagine it tookme uh took took my attention and
uh I ended up working through alot of diagnostics because I
(05:43):
was being told by the local docsthat I did have myeloma, and I
self-referred down to a mayoclinic in Scottsdale, Arizona,
and went through a completeworkup, including bone marrow
biopsy down there, and foundthat this was in fact a
precursor, but not a malignancy.
And the interesting part ofthis, I'm circling back around
to your question, there's onlyone substance that has been
(06:06):
proven to help slow thetransition of this MGUS
precursor into myeloma, andthat's a natural herb called
curcumin.
There are no chemotherapydrugs, there are no allopathic
drugs, no Western medicines thatare uh that are proven to work.
And so that that was my uh thatopened the door into
(06:29):
integrative therapy for mebecause all of a sudden, you
know, the antibiotics, theanesthetics, the things that you
and I have in our back pocketall day long had been proven
ineffective.
And in their place was uh anatural herb that had been used
for centuries uh by by differentcivilizations.
And so that that kind ofcracked the door open into
(06:50):
herbal medicine, and then fromthere I expanded into uh an
acupuncture practice, a laserpractice, and and eventually
into prescription longevitydrugs, which is where your path
and mine uh crossed.
Speaker 02 (07:03):
Really cool.
And you know, it's amazing howfor for for many of us um it's
really uh kind of like you haddescribed uh self-necessity or
self-awareness to kind of lookoutside the box when something
comes up.
I didn't have quite that umthat bit of a journey.
Um I uh just to give you alittle background, for me, uh I
(07:26):
was practicing um after um I Ispent a year um I graduated Penn
and then I spent a year doing arotating internship in medicine
and surgery.
I also went there thinking Iwas gonna be an equine surgeon
until I saw the economics ofwhat happened with racehorses
and how insurance money deemedeverything.
And it was just not why I wentinto vending medicine.
(07:48):
So after that year internshipand uh in medicine and surgery,
I went to the Animal MedicalCenter in New York City.
Um the reason for me is I'm I'ma visual learner, I can read 10
times.
If I see something once, I'mgood.
And so, you know, having 60,000cases a year uh was amazing,
and I was doing endoscopy andlaparoscopy there, which was
(08:10):
really fun.
Um But I got out to to Tucson,which is where I ended up uh
starting my practice, and Iprobably it was about 10 years
into the practice that Irealized for me that all I was
doing was putting out fires.
Um I could be I was a greatdiagnostician.
I I'm I'm not you know givingmyself any any you know rubs on
(08:30):
the back, but it was I was doinggreat.
I mean I I was far above whatwas out in medicine at the time
just because of my training.
Uh but um I didn't feel like Iwas getting anywhere towards
wellness and especially nothealth span or longevity.
So um heard about this guy,Andrew Weill in Tucson.
Dr.
Weil is uh you know a veryfamous MD that really started
(08:54):
laying the groundwork forlooking at herbal medicine and
Chinese herbs.
And and I um I went and gottraining in Albuquerque for uh
what I thought was addingChinese herbs to my practice,
only to learn I had to learnChinese medicine, which was
another whole paradigm shift inmy life, uh, which led to the
acupuncture certification andherbal certification, and then
(09:16):
from there um rehabcertification because of you
know what I saw my practice as anecessity for a lot of our
senior pets and and obviouslyrecoveries from surgeries and
whatnot.
So it was a great pathway, uh,but it really took a long time,
and I'm sure, like yourself, youknow, there was a lot of
reticence from the veterinarycommunity about what was going
(09:38):
on.
I I actually um to kind ofprove my point, started this
radio show in Tucson, went for10 years on Saturdays for two
hours asking QA, and most of itwas what you and I know about
basically, you know, how comemethylcobalamine helps the
bowel?
Or, you know, why am I, youknow, and and then you know,
basically pet owners would go totheir their veterinarians and
(10:01):
they'd be calling me and saying,like, well, what are you
telling this person?
You know, I don't even knowanything about this.
Yeah.
So it was an educationalprocess, but uh well worth it.
I mean, obviously.
And and then, you know, I I'msure for you started seeing some
amazing results in practice.
You know, things that I couldnot put my finger on.
You know, we were I I had thisongoing argument with the
(10:25):
oncologist here in town about uhusing um turkey tail for
mastell tumors.
And I told her that it workedas well as prednisone.
I just I kept on harping on it.
And then like five years intothis argument between the two of
us, Penn releases a study onturkey tail versus prednisone,
and that you know the resultswere equal, you know.
(10:46):
So uh it's nice, I think, forboth of us to have things borne
out.
But I think like you probably,and and I and I'd love you to
address this, the proof isseeing the benefit to our pet
payer you know, patients.
I mean, to see what we can doum to help them, especially not
only to work on disease, butalso on longevity health span
(11:09):
and wellness.
Speaker 00 (11:10):
Yeah, I could approach that in a couple
different ways.
Number one, um, I think as youpointed out, most veterinarians
are very good at solvingproblems.
Uh, you know, if if Annabelle,my my my aforementioned
11-month-old golden retriever,comes in with a uh a cut pad,
you and I are very good atsewing that up.
If she gets parable, we're verygood day in and day out at
(11:32):
solving that.
But what we aren't so good atis trying to develop a plan, uh
an integrated plan that looksdown the road and says, well,
how do I help this 11-month-oldgolden retriever as an example?
A breed that we know isabsolutely prone to cancer,
absolutely prone to orthopedicdisease, absolutely prone to
allergies.
How do I help that dog or thatpatient live their very best
(11:54):
life?
And what I found early on wasthat people were coming to me
because they had heard that Iwas a natural doc, a natural
naturopath.
And one of the first things Itold them was, well, in fact,
that's incorrect.
You know, um, I listen, I dobelieve in the value of herbal
therapy.
I do believe in the value of aclass four laser, but I also
(12:16):
believe in the value of surgeryand steroids and and you know,
the occasional vaccine.
It's just that in I think thatmany folks, whether they be
veterinarians, whether they bepet owners, tend to limit
themselves to one approach ortwo approaches and think that
they're doing all they can fortheir pet.
And when I'm asked thosequestions, I start waving my
(12:38):
arms around and say, well, youknow, we can use uh uh immune
suppressants over here, we canuse the turkey tail mushrooms
over here, we can cut thatrascal out.
You know, I mean there'sthere's a lot of different ways
to approach wellness for a pet.
And in in general terms, I liketo think, you know, it's the
same approach to wellness that Iuse.
You know, I I try to stay inshape, I try to eat right day in
(13:00):
and day out.
Um I'm not opposed to taking uhallopathic medicines, but I'm
also taking the prescriptionlongevity drugs that you and I
might get around to at somepoint in time.
I take herbal medications aswell.
And so I think it's a uh it's atotal lifestyle.
And I think that as, you know,I'm 65 at this point in time,
(13:20):
and as folks of our demographicuh kind of grow up, Randy, you
know, and and and maybe facemortality, um, all of a sudden,
you know, I think it's there'sincreasing interest, I think, in
in taking uh an integrated andall-encompassing view of our own
health, and that translatesvery well to our pet patients.
Speaker 02 (13:40):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And you know, I think on on thepersonal note, I'm on this very
similar pathway.
I mean, I love I I work outthree days a week in in the gym.
I actually have a gym in my hamy garage.
Um but I and I also bike threedays a week.
And um and I found that um evenjust recently, this is kind of
an interesting personal thing, Idon't mind being transparent,
(14:02):
but um, you know, I wasn'tfeeling that well.
There was a lot of pain andaches that I didn't feel like
should have been normal, and Iwasn't going to take um, you
know, a lot of the pain typemedications and whatnot.
And reached uh found a doctorwho I think like uh a guy named
Peter Utia that many of ourlisteners may know about
practices what I call medicine3.0, and that is really being
(14:25):
proactive about, you know, Irealized that after doing a DEXA
scan, I had way too muchvisceral fat.
Uh I was eating too many carbs.
And you know, after thatnutritional recycle for me and
um and and kind of doing a lotof biohacks, some biohacks, and
and obviously raphamycin, whichwe're gonna talk about in a
(14:47):
little bit, uh it's beenamazing.
Uh you know, I lost uh 25pounds.
Uh I feel so much better.
And this is kind of what I lookat for my pet uh patients,
because uh many times I have adog that's coming in uh for most
of my cases now, my practice ormy telemedicine cases are all
(15:08):
second and third opinions.
So I have a dog that you knowis a golden retriever who's
gotten to 10 years old, but he'shaving a very hard time getting
up.
Uh he's um he's not he doesn'tseem to be feeling well, he's
maybe a little bit more grumpyor aggressive.
And um I think my clients startthey're a little bit amazed in
(15:29):
the fact that the first thing Italk about is diet and and uh
supplements.
And we talk a little bit aboutsome of the other things like
like you mentioned class fourlaser, we have PEMF, which is
post-electric magnetic therapy,we have underwater treadmills,
um, trying to get these guysinto uh a situation where you
know I make them aware that thedog is obese and and needs to
(15:52):
lose weight body score, youknow, of seven and needs to be
at five.
Uh and all of a suddeneverything starts getting
better.
Uh and and the you know, thepet parent just is like so
thrilled, and of course I'malways so thrilled to see what's
going on.
Uh, and then I've added somenewer things and we can talk
about in a little bit using uhmicrobiome work uh that has
(16:13):
really been impressive with someof the allergy looking, you
know, looking at some of theallergy stuff.
Uh, and it's been great.
It's been just been a godsend.
Speaker 00 (16:23):
Yeah, I understand.
And uh, you know, one of thethings that you and I spoke of
before is the fact that many petparents have a tendency to
reach towards the the newestshiny object, you know, the uh
whatever whatever is in the newsuh as a basis for their pet's
health care.
And the reality is so often itcomes back down to the basics,
uh the same things that you andI speak of, whether it be
(16:44):
exercise or nutrition or for forsmall dogs and kitties, the you
know, the dental care that uhthat eliminates both pain and
long-term inflammation, youknow, and the old in the larger
dogs paying a little bit moreattention to orthopedics or
alpha allergic disease, uh, youknow, early cancer detection,
etc.
And some of these things arevery simple to take care of and
(17:06):
and oftentimes very cheap.
But the reality is that um theyplay a vital role for our pet
parents and keeping our theirpets healthy.
Speaker 02 (17:13):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Um talk a little bit about umso you uh I know you you had a
um a practice that you had soldnot not that long ago.
Um how what did you see as faras where you were going with
with this?
I mean, did you visualize youbeing um in uh the longevity
(17:34):
space?
Did you visualize this being atelemedicine consult kind of
thing for you to happen and andand exactly like tell our
listeners what you're doing now?
That would be great.
Speaker 00 (17:43):
Well, it's it's been an evolution.
I um I'm kind of a serialentrepreneur, and so uh through
the years, and uh you know, Ikind of migrated to wherever
wherever there were either wavesor trap.
That was kind of one of thedefining uh uh uh uh
characteristics of the placesthat I used to live.
And so I I came to San LuisObispo when I got tired of the
(18:05):
snow and and built uh what atthat point in time was a just a
one-dock practice and and grewit to uh a five, five and a half
doc practice and you know 25,30 some odd employees.
And I just um uh and and thento be candid with you, uh that
was back in in 2018, and and asyou probably know, that was kind
(18:26):
of the beginning of the privateequity move, the venture
capital move into veterinarymedicine.
And and I could talk at lengthabout that um from both a pro
but also a lot of cons.
And the reality is that I wasmade that proverbial offer that
I could not refuse.
We had kind of a little bit ofa referral uh practice going on
(18:46):
at that point in time, and so wehad a pretty good reputation,
and and I just knew that uh asmy practice enlarged, I was
losing one of the things thatmattered most to me, and that
was the the contact with theindividual.
You know, I spent more time asan administrator, I guess, at
the end of the day, to cut youknow, to get right to the chase
here.
(19:06):
I spent more time doing thepaperwork and keeping the
hospital running than thansolving things, you know, and uh
that's one of the things thatthat I hold hold myself to be as
a little bit of a fixer.
And uh I had lost thatcomponent of my day-to-day work,
and so I just uh I took thatoffer that I could not receive,
or could not uh turn down, Ishould say.
(19:28):
And that freed me up to goahead and explore the part of
veterinary medicine that Ireally love, which is building
that relationship, building thatone-on-one relationship with an
individual pet parent, andbeing able to say, listen, I'm
gonna follow your pet, not justfor the days associated with uh,
you know, a vaccine or asurgical procedure, but for for
(19:49):
weeks or months or years in aneffort to really provide them
the very best care.
And these days, you know,California has incrementally
liberalized their uh theirtelemedicine uh statutes as a
result probably of COVID.
And I'm trying to take fulladvantage of that because you
know we were laughing about it.
Um I've I was talking withanother uh pretty savvy
(20:13):
individual um about businessdevelopment, and he said, you
know, really one of the thingswe're trying to do is
democratize veterinary medicine.
And that sounds kind of funny,but not everybody lives in in
the Tucsons or or Phoenixes orSan Fernando Valleys, the San
Luis Obispo of the world.
I mean, some folks live in uhin the wise river, Montanas, or
(20:34):
the Scow Vegans, Mains.
And I think that telemedicine,the access to a veterinarian
like yourself who really caresabout not just solving a
problem, but about trying tobuild a longevity plan for this
particular patient, can make allthe difference in the world in
today's uh internet age, whereyou know, social media isn't you
you can get opinions all over,but what you can't develop is a
(20:57):
relationship with somebody.
And that that is my goal uhwith some of the things that I'm
doing right now.
Speaker 02 (21:03):
Uh it's you know, couldn't have said it better.
I mean that's that's amazingthat um you know uh again, I I
think the evolution for both ofus was very similar.
Um I do remind my clients, likeyou know, we used to get
initially people come in andsay, Well, I just want
acupuncture for my dog.
And I go, Well, I I can do theacupuncture, but let's just see
(21:24):
what the situation is here sothat we can figure out why we're
doing that or what thenecessity or what our plan is.
Like you said, planning isalways very important.
And you know, when I said,Well, you know, we we want to
check a little bit of bloodwork, possibly get some some
some radiographs or some x-rays,uh sometimes they look at me as
you and go, like, well, Ithought you were a natural
veterinarian.
I go, you know, I'm anintegrated veterinarian.
(21:46):
And I do the same reminder thatyou do that um we utilize all
the I utilize all the tools.
And um there is definite placefor a lot of this to happen, uh,
but there are certainly placesfor the things, the other
things, the other options thatwe can offer, which is really
neat.
Um so so um you sold thepractice, you started um this um
(22:08):
was it beginning intelemedicine?
Is that how it started for you?
Or or was it?
Speaker 00 (22:13):
No, I was uh kind of the uh mail order practice uh
mail order, you know, basicallyjust selling supplements back in
the day.
Uh because you know, I I I tookmy initial interest in curcumin
and and really did the researchnecessary to kind of um find
you know without putting a salesspin on it.
I I I did the researchnecessary to find what I thought
(22:34):
were the very best ingredients,the very most effective
ingredients around.
And there's there's a lot ofsmoke and mirrors in the pet
supplement world, you know, alot of marketing um spin by
folks that have never set footinto a veterinary clinic.
And what I tried to do is tooffer folks a little bit
different approach.
And I tried to look at things,you know, I I I don't I don't
(22:55):
sell, I don't even talk aboutthings that don't have any
science behind them.
You know, I think the really aPubMed study or two is kind of
the entry, the the door throughwhich any supplement has to
strive before I'll I'll have alook at it.
And I think that uh uh therethere was there was a need.
People were receptive to that.
Uh and you know, I I agree thatbusiness one person at a time.
(23:18):
You know, there are some somelean times uh to go along with
it, but the reality is that uhnow we seem to have developed a
little bit of word of mouth,folks that are kind of uh that
the type of medicine that youpractice resonates with them,
and and so uh much like you,there's there's a receptive
audience out there.
Speaker 02 (23:37):
So talk a little bit to our listeners um about one,
how people find you andbasically kind of what your
goals are going forward fromwhere you are right now.
Speaker 00 (23:50):
Well, again, I I don't want to make this uh an
advertisement for myself.
Speaker 02 (23:54):
I'm asking.
I'm asking.
Speaker 00 (23:56):
Yeah, okay.
Well, I run I run a couple ofuh websites.
I guess um the the one thatmost folks know me through is
just helpingpets livelonger.com.
And on that uh there's a mix ofof both prescription longevity
drugs uh that are availablethrough by prescription from
other veterinarians or after aconsult with me.
Uh some of the provensupplements that we've
(24:17):
discussed.
And then I'm I'm really tryingto expand the consult part of
things because I think there issuch a need for pet parents to
develop a relationship withsomebody that they can trust,
somebody who's in this not justfor days or weeks, but for the
long term.
So that you know, there'sthere's nothing more satisfying
to me, uh Randy, than uh, youknow, seeing a uh you know the
(24:39):
puppy, the proverbial puppy thatyou and I take care of.
Uh, you know, we can givevaccines, eight, twelve, sixteen
weeks of age or whatever, guidethem through middle age and and
eventually, you know, approachpalliative care with them and
sometimes get you know the nextgeneration of pets uh coming.
And and that to me is is reallywhy I got into veterinary
medicine.
And so um I I acknowledge thefact that you know there are
(25:03):
many supplement uh suppliers outthere, and and that field's
probably gonna get a little bitmore crowded over time, as you
and I've talked about.
But one thing I don't thinkwill ever get uh get too crowded
is the ability to look somebodyin the eye, even if it's on
Zoom, and say, listen, you know,this this is this is what I
think we need to do.
This is this is how you and I,by working together, can help
(25:24):
our pet.
And I and I think that's veryimportant.
Speaker 02 (25:27):
I do too.
Well said.
And um I you know theinteresting thing um that I uh
allude to a lot of my uh petparents when they come to see me
is a lot of what you said asfar as the the you know what
what they're picking as far assupplements and why and and you
know, uh many, many times I Irefer to Google, Dr.
(25:49):
Google as the N of one.
Meaning like, you know, I hadthis golden retriever, it had
this, and I gave this, and it,you know, this is the best
product in the world.
You know, this Dr.
Google's an N of one, andpeople like you and I have N of
hundreds.
And we look at, you know, thetumor products, let's say, that
are out there, or the curcuminproducts that are out there, and
know how it's made and know thequality and know the efficacy.
(26:11):
Same with the othersupplements.
And I'm with you.
I I you know I um I I thinkwithout any kind of research or
or back background, um, I'm moreapt to be a little skeptical
until proven otherwise.
And um I think that reallyhelps.
Um do you do a lot of yourtelemedicine cases by Zoom or do
you do mostly phone calls, orhow does that work for you?
Speaker 00 (26:34):
I try to do Zoom calls where I can.
And the reality is that I Ilike to look at the yeah at the
parent, pet parents that I'mtalking with.
I like to be able to look at apet, you know, as goofy as that
sounds, you know, becausesometimes what what a pet parent
will say uh will describesometimes uh is different uh is
(26:55):
looks different to me.
Looks different to me, youknow.
Uh whether it be a pet beinglame on on one leg, you know,
and maybe they maybe they turnout to be painful on another, or
you and I might describe uh anarea of baldness or or hair loss
or the like a little bitdifferently than a pet parent
will.
And so in in answer to your indirect answer to your question,
(27:17):
I start with a four-page pethealth questionnaire that I
would ask you to fill out.
Uh, you know, where did you getyour pet?
What is their lifestyle like?
I mean, when when they gooutside, where do they spend
time?
How many pets, how many otheranimals do they come in contact
with?
Uh, you know, we discuss uh youknow preventive care, et
cetera, you know, the heartworm,the flea and tick medications,
(27:38):
et cetera.
And and then I get veryspecific, you know, what is your
specific concern?
You know, what have you triedin the past?
What are you what uh what hasyour local veterinarian helped?
And and if uh I mean, do youhave problems with your local
veterinarian?
Is there something that youfeel like you guys just simply
aren't connecting with?
Uh, because all that is vitalinformation if you're really
trying to get to the bottom ofthings.
(27:59):
And and then I I do ask for thelast two years of a PET's
veterinary records as well,including all images and lab
work, just to get a handle on onwhat has gone on.
And then the third component ofthat of that three-legged stool
is is in fact trying to set upa Zoom call.
Speaker 02 (28:16):
Perfect.
It sounds great.
Yeah, so you you know thatthat's the thing that I think a
lot of people like to know isthat um, you know, Dr.
Tolman going in is welleducated on what's going on with
your pet and and basically whatyou're looking for, and and can
think about what the optionsmight be laid out after that's
all assessed, which is great.
Yeah, I think that's reallyimportant.
Speaker 00 (28:37):
Um Yeah, and again, and I will and I'm I'm sorry
Randy to interrupt you, but Ishould mention that the other
part of things that that I'vedone even in veterinary practice
is uh I'm I made a habit.
I I've I uh I forced all thesepoor doctors that worst worked
with me.
We always uh sent a writtenletter home for every every sick
(29:00):
pet that we saw, sick orinjured pet.
Now, this is not the standardyou know Spay or Newter uh
post-op instructions, but um Ibelieve pet parents are entitled
to to that written umexplanation of lab work, to to
an idea as to uh a written ideaas to prognosis or what the next
step is.
Because listen, when I go to mydentist or when I go to a
(29:22):
doctor, you know, I listen likehell.
You know, I'm I'm I'm payingattention just to the I'm paying
rapt attention.
But then I get home and Ithink, hmm, what what exactly
was said there?
And so that's part of it, whatthat's part of my philosophy
around these consults, too, isthat at the end of the day, uh a
pet parent will get anywherebetween a page and and sometimes
(29:45):
two or three pages of a writtenassessment of their pet's
health, not just where they'reat right now, but what uh where
they're headed, in my opinion.
Speaker 02 (29:53):
Perfect.
Perfect.
Um do these um do yourtelemedicine consults are they
usually are like an hour inlength or
Speaker 00 (30:00):
Is there any specific time frame or yeah,
well the the uh uh the homeworkis done ahead of that.
Sure.
But yeah, then then the theZoom consults themselves are set
up on the hour.
Perfect.
Um so yeah, I I try to givefolks just as much as much time
and room as they need to runwith this.
Speaker 02 (30:17):
How do you get around the um the issue?
I often get this question onmedicine, um, actual
prescriptions of medicine whenyou're doing these.
Speaker 00 (30:26):
Um Well, uh, you know, I I can prescribe within
within the the state ofCalifornia, but the reality is
that outside the state, um, youknow, that uh current veterinary
laws, whether they and you andI could talk all day long about
some of this, to be candid withyou, but uh current veterinary
(30:47):
laws prevent uh a veterinarianfrom prescribing outside their
their state.
And so uh, you know, I try towork with local veterinarians,
and many times, you know, peoplealready have a cabinet full of
medications, it's that they'renot quite sure how to use them
or when to use them.
And so there are a lot ofdifferent ways to to work with
that, but I'm not it I want tobe absolutely clear.
(31:10):
My goal is not to alienate oror to uh ostracize the local
vet.
My goal is to is to doeverything we can.
Again, you know, work work withspecialists.
Uh, you know, I have a littlespecialist network that you and
I can talk a little bit moreabout.
Uh uh so I try to bringspecialists in as needed, but
work with a local vet.
Sometimes, you know, the rehabvets, the physical therapy
(31:32):
folks, in an effort to establisha healthcare team for these
pets, a healthcare team insteadof a one-man band.
Speaker 02 (31:39):
Perfect.
Perfect, perfect.
Um, let's take a little time,if you don't mind, um, and talk
about rapamycin and and how thiscame about for you and and kind
of what you see it situationand and what it looks like in
the future.
Speaker 00 (31:55):
Okay.
Well, yeah, rapamycin isprobably the single most widely
studied and widely usedprescription longevity drug in
the world right now.
Um, you know, and as as a lotof folks realize, it came into
human medicine actually as animmune suppressant, and in
particular for uh for transplantmedicine.
But what they found is that atlower doses it had pretty
(32:18):
profound uh metabolic benefits.
And at this point, uh I I thinkI can say categorically that it
has extended life in everyspecies study to date, and in
mammal species, uh typically byabout four uh by up to about 14%
or so.
And of course, that anythingthat extends life by what could
(32:39):
be a you know up to a decade forfor a schmo like you or me, um,
or you know, a year, a year anda half, or two years for a pet.
Now, listen, there are noguarantees.
I don't think any medicationworks for everybody, but the
potential for actually a safeintervention uh into helping our
pets or helping ourselves livelonger, I mean, that's awful
(33:00):
appealing for a lot of folks,uh, folks like me.
Speaker 01 (33:02):
Sure.
Speaker 00 (33:03):
And so I began using rapamycin in my clinical
practice back in 2016, 2017,primarily in an oncology
setting, because you and I bothknow that um it's difficult
sometimes to uh to have anoncologist or have a general uh
GP doc just say, Oh, there'snothing you can do.
(33:23):
And there's pretty compellinguh studies in human medicine for
a variety of differentdiseases, lymphomas, the various
sarcomas of the world, mammarycancer, melanomas, uh in our
case, anal glandadenocarcinomas, the rapamycin
has has a benefit for thesepatients.
And I I saw some prettysubstantial results, um,
especially with melanoma, oralmelanomas, and the and anal
(33:47):
gland cancer.
And uh so uh based on that anda safety record, I eventually
began taking it myself in candorand then made that switch.
I mean, so many people um youknow the last thing in the world
that that a pet parent wants tohear is that your pet is
growing old and there is nothingwe can do.
There is nothing we can do.
(34:09):
And uh listen, there are a lotof lifestyle change uh uh
components to this, as you'vealready alluded to.
There's a lot of standard medicmedical uh therapies like
dental care or you know,sometimes vaccines or whatever
that can that can help a pet.
But um if if you truly loveyour pet, like you and I do, or
like many, many pet parents do,uh, you'll stop at nothing.
(34:32):
You know, and and rapamycin hasbeen proven safe.
Uh, you know, the studiessupport its use uh uh for both
longevity and well, it haslongevity, it has anti-cancer
and anti-inflammatory benefits.
And I'm gonna talk a little bitmore about cardiac care in just
one minute.
And to this point, it's it'sbeen an off-label use for both
(34:54):
dogs and for cats.
But there was a study that cameout, uh put out by a company
called Trivium, an Irish uhveterinary uh products company
called Trivium, about a year anda half ago that showed that
rachamycin has the potential toslow, stop, and occasionally
even reverse a fatal cardiacdisease in kidneys known as
(35:15):
hypertrophic cardiomyopathy orHCM.
And why is this so important?
Well, because HCM is the singlemost common cardiac disease
that cats run into.
And I'm gonna be honest withyou, in the 40 years that I've
been in veterinary practice, upuntil now, it has been a uniform
death sentence.
If I told you that your cat hadHCM, it was equivalent to
(35:36):
telling you, go out and dig ahole.
Go out and dig a hole.
And now rapamycin is a safealternative that, again, does
not work for every cat, but Iwould tell you that in our hands
and in the cats that we've hadrechecked by uh echo exam by
veterinary cardiologists, aboutthree-quarters of those cats
have either stabilized or in afew instances, 10 to 15 percent,
(35:58):
actually improved.
And this is borne out by astudy that uh by a wider study
that has been done at and Ithink completed at this point at
North Carolina StateUniversity.
And so it's a fascinating timeto be uh a veterinarian who's
interested in longevity medicinebecause in in addition to the
(36:18):
lifestyle and the herbalsupplements and and uh the
physical therapy that uh thatyou and I are very versed in,
now we have a a whole differentuh a whole different arm of
medicine.
We have a totally different wayto help our pet parents uh help
their pets live longer.
And that's pretty that's prettyexciting to me.
Speaker 02 (36:38):
Absolutely.
Um we're kind of running out oftime, and I'm really sad
because I think we have I haveso much more that I wanted to
talk to you about.
Hopefully, maybe we could dothis again.
Um if that would be okay withyou.
Um is there anything you wantto leave uh our listeners with?
Anything new on the horizon foryou or anything changing?
Uh of course, I'm gonna haveall your contact information if
(36:59):
our listeners want to uh want toget a hold of Dr.
Tolman, want to get atelemedicine uh consult set up.
Um but any any uh any closingthoughts, Kevin, at all?
Speaker 00 (37:10):
No, not really.
I just appreciate uh Iappreciate your work and the
skill and time that you broughtinto veterinary medicine because
I can tell you that uh peoplewith your passion, people with
with your dedication to uh tohealing pets, I mean, they're
rare in our profession.
I mean sometimes it's easy totake it take the easy way out,
(37:30):
sometimes it's easy to limityourself to to what you were
taught in school 20 or 30 or 40years ago.
And it seems like you're on thecutting edge of all this.
And so I think that uh youryour clients, your pet parents
are very lucky to have you aspart of their healthcare team.
Speaker 02 (37:44):
Well, and back at you because I, you know, after I
got to to know a little bitabout you and and especially
with this conversation, I'm soimpressed.
I mean, I I you know uh I'm alittle older than you are, but
the two of us are still kickingand and wanting to do this, and
the passion is really there.
One of the things I thoughtabout is uh at some point it'd
be fun uh for you and I to gospeak somewhere and and do
(38:06):
something like this in inperson.
Uh we can reach out to some youknow pet organizations or
whatever, but it would be reallykind of cool to kind of uh
piggyback off of each otherbecause I think it works
amazingly well.
So uh maybe we can pull thatoff.
Speaker 00 (38:20):
Yeah, you know, I've often thought that there was
room to establish kind of a petlongevity conference, and it's
it's funny that um uh I I cameacross uh a human longevity.
I try to pay a lot of attentionto some of the human longevity
conferences, and there was onein um in Switzerland, and I
think it was Lucerne or or or uhdon't quote me on Lucerne, but
(38:41):
the reality is that uh there wasa human uh uh longevity summit
in Switzerland that you and Ijust missed.
It just happened this lastweek.
And their statement is thatthey're putting together a pet
longevity summit in Switzerlandfor next summer.
And so yeah, there's uh that'sthat's an intriguing thought, my
friend.
It's an intriguing thought.
Speaker 02 (39:02):
It'd be it would be a nice trip and uh we could uh
we could have fun kind kind oflaying out the the pathwork for
our our our pet parents and andfor people that would listen.
Kevin, I can't thank you enoughum again for all that you do.
Um I do have um definitely havesome some rapamycing people who
want to talk to you and and umI you know I um I want to keep
(39:24):
on I as in in all transparency Ialso take it.
Um I only I don't have my dogson it at this point, but I'm I'm
working towards that.
Um had a little trouble with itprescription wise.
I I will bounce that off ofyou, I think.
Um but uh um I really reallyappreciate all that you've done.
And um it is uh for ourlisteners, this is really
(39:45):
cutting edge stuff.
Um spread the word, check outDr.
Thoman on his website, uhcontact him if you'd like to
have a telemedicine consult, uh,and um we'll come back with
with more uh Pause ReflectingHeel soon.
Kevin, thanks again, buddy.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 00 (40:01):
All right, Dr.
Andrew, have a great day.
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