February 27, 2024 • 26 mins
Unlock the secrets of innovative student behavior management with Minerva Elementary's reflection room, guided by the wisdom of PBIS principles. Dianne Ferrell and I, Diane Ruff, explore how the calm of reflection can transform student behavior, sharing our "three Rs" strategy that empowers students to reflect, reset, and return to class with a fresh perspective. Our conversation dismantles the myth that PBIS is synonymous with leniency, shining a light on constructive, instructional consequences that pave the way for meaningful behavior change. Inspired by insights from the "Expert Instruction: The Teach by Design" podcast, we reveal how to craft consequences that build, rather than break, a student's ability to thrive in the classroom.
Experience the power of consistency across educational environments, as we delve into the necessity of setting clear behavior expectations for students, underpinned by the mantra "be safe, responsible, and respectful." We offer practical tactics to manage classroom behavior, with a focus on the importance of timing and approach to behavioral instruction. Our reflection room is not just a space—it's a tool for tackling the underlying causes of misbehavior, helping students shift from their "animal brain" to their "thinking brain," and fostering lasting change. Engage with us through email and our social media platforms for more resources, including our PBIS Tips of the Week, as we guide you on this journey to harnessing the genius within every student.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to PBIS.
Journey to Genius.
Are you in the process ofimplementing PBIS?
Are you wondering where tostart?
You are in the right place.
We are here to support you.
Stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back everyone .
Welcome back to our podcast.
I'm Diane Farrell and I'm herewith Diane Ruff.
We are two educators from anerve elementary and we started
a podcast all about PBIS, andDiane and I have been working
together in education for manyyears and the past 14 of those
have been on a PBIS Journey.
This podcast is not only ourstory, but the story of many
(00:55):
other award-winning schoolssharing their insights.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So what we talk about today, diane.
Well, last week we highlightedour reflection room.
That's here at our building atthe Minerva Elementary, and the
reflection room is a place forchildren to go when they need to
come to the office.
So instead of always justsending children straight to the
office, we wanted to get awayfrom that.
(01:19):
We wanted to get children inthe office until we could figure
out exactly what was going onwith their behavior.
So this is kind of a placewhere they can go.
They can calm down, settle down.
We have an aide in there andthen she gets the stories of
teachers and kids alike and thensometimes she's able to just
get them back to class, butother times then it does come to
(01:41):
the office.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And we had never had anything like this ever.
Kids have been just comingstraight to the office and this
is actually, you know, diane'sbeing kind, but this was her
brainchild, so this was herwhole thing.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
We've had it now for probably 14 years.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I think I know, but then you and I go way back.
So when we talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
We never had it.
That's in our early years ofteaching.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
It was always that when kids were, you know,
removed from our room, they weresent to the office.
That's what they did, and sothis was, like I said, diane's
brainchild, and it has beenwonderful for our school.
So we like to think of thereflection room as a time for a
child to reflect, reset andreturn.
So, the three Rs and we like toreteach behaviors for them to
(02:30):
return.
But we found that this isreally fitting into the PBIS
philosophies of appropriateconsequences.
But Diane highlighted that forme in a podcast she was
listening to Talk about that.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yes, there are other podcasts out there, although we
hope you continue to listen tous and only us.
No, that's not true, but thereis a podcast out of Oregon
called expert instruction, theteach by design podcast.
It is a PBIS podcast andepisode 35, called myth busters,
that PBIS has no consequences,actually talks a little bit
(03:09):
about this idea of consequencesand what are consequences, when
should consequences occur?
And also the fact thatconsequences don't fix the
behavior.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, a lot of times people will go and we have heard
this.
Educators will say well, youknow, pbs, all they do is give
them candy and then they sendthem back.
There's no real consequencesfor the students when they're
removed from the classroom and Iknow that that whole
acknowledgement system that'swhat we call it.
Not giving them candy is oneway of changing behavior.
(03:46):
I mean acknowledging the good.
We all like that.
Adults love that whenever we'reacknowledged for the good
things we do.
But sometimes that doesn'tchange the negative behavior by
just bringing out the positive.
You know, sometimes it doesn't.
So I think PBS has gotten.
Has gotten like a raw dealwhenever they've said well,
there's no consequence, youdon't do anything.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So this podcast if you get a chance to listen to it
like Diane you know turned meon to it and I really enjoyed it
.
So we're going to kind of usethe information from that
podcast today and we're going toalign it to our reflection room
, which we feel addresses thatidea, that busting that myth.
So they say right.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
So you know consequences should be
instructional as much aspossible.
So yes, I mean students.
If they're misbehaving on theplayground, they've hurt someone
.
There's been some kicking orpunching or whatever.
Definitely being removed fromthe playground, that's a
consequence.
Usually you lose a playgroundor a recess the next day.
That's a consequence.
(04:52):
But we don't stop there.
We then go over the expectedbehaviors.
We teach what needs to happen.
Sometimes, like our aid talkedabout, you know we'll teach
behaviors through games orwatching a video of appropriate
behavior.
Sometimes writing an apologyletter is teaching Time to think
(05:14):
the right behavior.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So you really need to listen to last week's episode
about our reflection room evenbefore you listen to this one,
if you get a chance, because ouraide does a really good job of
telling you what she actuallydoes in that reflection room.
But what?
Talking about removing astudent?
Yes, removing a student isimportant.
(05:37):
Sometimes, like now, there areall kinds of strategies that
teachers use to keep fromremoving a student.
There's redirection, there isaccenting the positive, there is
all kinds of things you knowthat toolbox teachers have.
But when that's not working andthe student needs removed, then
we have to think is justremoving them going to change
(06:01):
that behavior?
Because it usually doesn'treally, and sometimes it can be
a reward.
Yeah, sometimes childrenactually want to be removed,
because then they don't have toread, they don't have to do the
work, or they don't have to dothe work you know, and they get
out, and if they get to hang inthe office with the secretary,
that can even be more fun, andif they know that, so really
really removing a student allyou've really told that student
(06:24):
is, if I do this behavior.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I get out.
I remember when I first becamea teacher, and actually when I
was growing up, the bigconsequence was just, you know,
for elementary kids was to sitout in the hallway.
We were thrown out of theclassroom.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
We don't do that much .
Speaker 1 (06:39):
In Borbo we used to Do you remember, yeah, actually,
when I was growing up and evenwhen I first started teaching,
kids would be removed to thehallway because it was a
punishment to not be in theclassroom.
But really, really most of thekids that would end up sitting
in the hallway enjoyed that.
It was a busy place becausethey could watch everyone walk
up and down the hallway.
They didn't care so much abouttheir schoolwork.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
So we'll talk to them .
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I am so glad that we've gotten very far away from
that we have gotten very faraway from that, but that is
where it used to be.
We don't send kids into thehallway.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
If it wasn't the office, it was, it was the
hallway.
Another thing that the podcasttalked about, which I thought
was really interesting, Diane,is that sometimes, okay,
teachers are saying, okay, theyneed to be removed from my room.
That gives the student a break,that gives me break, that gives
the other students a break, butthen I don't really know what.
Like maybe I think nothinghappens to them.
(07:31):
That's why there's noconsequences, like they just get
to go down there into thisabyss of an office.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right, I've sent them to the office, but nothing
happened, nothing happened.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
So Diane's going to talk a little bit about the
Swiss program and why thataddresses that and what we do
with those reports.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Right.
So when in our building, whenit's time to send a student down
our reflection room aid, as shetalked about she usually has
the teacher fill out a form thatkind of states what's going on.
Because we always want theteacher's side of the story
first.
We're not going to listen tothe student tell us what
happened.
We want to know what reallyhappened from the teacher and
(08:10):
then when we get the child down,our reflection roommate will
get the child's side of thestory.
Listen to the child, because alot of times we're removing
because they're melting down forsome reason and we want to know
why they're melting down.
It's important to get their sidetoo.
It is so, you know, oncethey're down in the reflection
room and this student calms down, she gets their side of the
story.
That's where it will help usdig down deep into that
(08:33):
antecedent, which what actuallyled into the removal.
After that it usually comesdirectly to myself or the
assistant principal and then wemake a phone call home because
that's part of the consequence.
We want the parent to knowexactly what's going on.
We also record all of it inwhat we call we've talked about
(08:56):
this before our Swiss and theteacher gets a printout of.
You know what the consequenceis.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
That's the key, right there, Because when they were
talking in that's the genius.
That's the genius Because whenthey were talking in that
podcast, they said that withoutthat communication that teacher
has no way of knowing what wasdone.
So with that Swiss report thatyou give that well the
reflection, roommate does, orthe principal, if they're the
(09:23):
one doing the behavior, if it'sa major behavior, that teacher
gets a copy in her mailbox.
So now she knows exactly whatwas done and there's no nothing
was done, Like they know whatthat consequence was.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yes, yes, so you know , we also a lot of times we'll,
if it comes to the principal, alot of times we'll walk the
student back up to class andwe'll briefly, you know, check
in with the teacher quickly, butit's all recorded on the Swiss
paper that they can see that.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
And, like she said, the teacher gets a copy of it.
It goes, of course, on theSwiss documentation, the school
counselor because, if you don'tknow from us, I am a retired
school counselor.
I was part of the schoolcounseling system for the past
many years and I would get acopy of this too.
Now you say, well, what doesthe school counselor do with
that every time?
Well, I didn't do anything withit, but it was information Like
(10:18):
, and then I could see if I gotseveral of those something's
going on.
So then maybe I did need tointeract, you know, get a hold
of the student and find out ifthere was a bigger problem.
So it's all about information,and in the podcast they talked
about the fact of just the moreinformation, the better you know
(10:38):
, and when people aren'tinformed about that, they think
nothing's happening.
Nothing's happening.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
And that's not true.
So a lot of times when we haveto actually remove a child out
of the classroom, it is a tempertantrum of some sort.
So after we get the student tocalm down and we've talked to
the parent and there might besome consequence in there, a lot
of times talking to the parentis the consequence, though, you
know.
(11:04):
But then the next step is toreally determine what is causing
the meltdown.
What is that in a seatant, andthen moving to start helping the
child.
We're dealing with a childright now that gets very upset,
overwhelmed with the workload.
A young student getsoverwhelmed with the workload
(11:26):
and so, you know, takes a lookat whatever's required and then
they don't wanna do it, they getdefiant, and part of this is a
trauma situation.
So we know, with trauma kids,they wanna try to control their
environment as much as possible.
So how do we help this child?
Give them control, stop themeltdowns and do the work okay?
(11:50):
So there's lots of thingsinvolved there.
If we were just punishing, wewouldn't be helping this child
at all.
So one of the things we've beenlooking at is we've adjusted
the academics.
We're doing some pre-teachingso the child isn't overwhelmed
when they see the next conceptcoming up.
They've already have beenbriefed on it, so it's not a big
(12:12):
surprise.
The re-teaching comes intocoping skills.
How am I going to when I startto feel frustrated?
And we've talked about well Idon't know if we've talked-
about zones of regulation.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So much here.
We have not talked yet.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But we use zones of regulation here and so teaching
kids to recognize and verbalizehow they're feeling, and then so
, working with this student, shebegins to feel very frustrated.
So then she's got places thatshe could look at on her.
She's got a chart in front ofher for coping skills to help
(12:46):
her.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So those are tools.
So those are tools.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
So we're teaching and we're spending time outside of
the academics to teach that.
So, again, because we want herto stay in the classroom, Be
successful and stay in the room.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
So, at the end of the day, removing that student from
the room is probably not goingto change that behavior.
Just removal will not changeJust removal will not.
Because she's still going to befrustrated with a large workload
Whether you take her down tothe office or not, and she's
probably gonna like being in theoffice because now she doesn't
have to do the work.
So you know it's a win-win forher.
But removing that studentshouldn't be the end of the
(13:25):
interaction.
It should only be the beginning, and so that's what Diane is
just talking about strategies tohelp them be back in that
classroom, because that's whatyou want.
You want them to be back in theclassroom.
Another thing we talked aboutlast week that I thought was
really important to bring up isyour established procedure for
(13:46):
removal.
So we go back to that T-chartagain.
That's very important.
So that's classroom-managedbehaviors, you know,
office-managed behaviors and theflow chart that goes with that,
so that everybody is on thesame page about when the
reflection roommate is to becalled, when she needs to come
(14:07):
in.
If you listened to that lastweek, she's great.
So you need to listen to thatwhen she talks about what she
does when she comes to the roomto assess the situation, to get
the student to come with her fora little bit, and all that kind
of thing.
But, knowing that predeterminedprocedure, have a plan.
What is the plan?
We're not gonna lead by emotion, because emotion is I'm fed up
(14:31):
with this and I'm just calling.
You know, get them out.
But that's not the way it needsto happen.
And the and that T chart thatpredetermined that flow chart,
that is really, really important.
Most of you should have that'spart of your tier one, but the
reflection room in our flowchart is a big piece of that.
When does that come into playNow?
(14:53):
Um, we talked about consistencyamongst classrooms.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yes, and so this is really a big deal, especially
maybe at the high school level,middle school level and upper
elementary, when students areswitching classes, Because you
know you can have your commonrules throughout the building.
Ours is be safe, responsibleand respectful, but each teacher
has their own way of doingthings and, um, maybe you know,
(15:20):
in an English class they doliterature circles and they're
allowed to talk to each otherand share ideas.
All those conversations, thosesidebar conversations, but in
another classroom, maybe in inmath class or social studies,
it's supposed to be much quieterand really no talking going on.
Uh, so you know, our studentsneed to know the expectations
(15:42):
and be reminded of themconstantly.
I know here in our building too.
They come from gym class wherethey're allowed to run around
scream, yell and scream.
Yes, but then getting them backinto transitioning back into the
classroom, the teacher needs todo a little reminder of all
right the expectations in theclassroom are and then rattle
off the expectations at thebeginning, because that will
(16:05):
stop any confusion with students.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And I think sometimes we take for granted, just like
we do with PBIS rules, that oncetaught, always learned, and
that's not the, that's not thetruth.
And so when those students comeback into you, you know from
another classroom or whateverand you have your expectations
for your class.
I'm not saying that kids aren'tgoing to break those rules and
(16:28):
I'm not saying they're not goingto all do what they're supposed
to be doing, and some kids arejust going to do what they're
supposed to do every time theycome in because they just will.
But reminding that, having thatfront loading, like Diane was
talking about, as soon as youall sit down, now remember,
let's remember the rules of theroom and then having that just
putting that out there with thembefore it even starts and they
(16:50):
said that in this podcast and Ithought that was really good.
And you know, just because evenwhen we go to workshops and
things like that, you don't youdon't even know what it's going
to be like until the presentertells you what is it, you know?
Speaker 1 (17:05):
and they will get up and go to the bathroom.
They do, they set theparameters, you know a lot of
times.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So we think about that.
As adults, we want to know whatam I going to be allowed to do
here?
Well, I think we just assumechildren can do that.
So so that was in the podcast.
I really liked it that theytalked about that and I think
you know us as educators, andteachers should just take those
couple you know minutes to frontload our kids again about the
(17:31):
expectations of the room or thelesson you know and what we were
going to do before behaviorstarts.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
It really needs to be done almost daily, because
children are children.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Children are children and each lesson can be
different.
Yes, yeah.
You know, in this lesson this isgoing to be allowed, but then
maybe this lesson is gonna bemore lecture.
So just thinking about that,you know, out there as just
another way to handle behaviorsand kind of, you know, put those
expectations out, just like weput expectations out in the
(18:05):
building.
You know everything as we werelooking at the podcast again.
Another thing they talked aboutis thinking of instruction, not
retribution, and I like thattoo, not kicking a student out,
yelling at them, humiliatingthem.
You know they talked about evenlabeling them as a troublemaker
(18:27):
.
You know, really, that is notgonna change any of that
behavior long-term.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
No, it really doesn't .
You need to address thebehavior, administer the
consequence, but then you needto figure out why that behavior
is happening and begin to helpthat student change their
behavior through reteaching orcoping skills and getting them
to recognize how they're feeling.
Just like I, you know a middleschooler can feel very
frustrated and have an outburst,and the teacher might not even
(18:57):
know that the student's havingfrustration.
Right yeah, so you know.
And then outbursts are notallowed.
So what can you do differentlywhen you're feeling frustrated
and our middle school.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
She just said middle school has put the reflection,
so they have taken our model ofour reflection room.
And what is it?
Speaker 1 (19:15):
two years now, I think so They've done it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I think they have done that model over there,
helping middle school kids, youknow, redirect their behavior,
rethink, reflect and front loadbefore they go back in the room.
So, again, it is removal, youknow it is, but it's removal
with instruction, and I thinkthat that is so key and what I
(19:40):
saw really aligned with thisPBIS.
It's genius.
It's genius, isn't it?
Well, diane and remember I'mnot here anymore, but I'm loving
to hear what goes on here andtalk about it with you all is
talking about not only doingthat in the moment, but then
doing that as an actual setaside time to do it.
(20:02):
And I guess you know Diane wasalways good at telling me about
the animal brain and thethinking brain she used to tell
me about that all the time.
Are we in our animal brain?
Okay, so we have to think aboutwhen a student comes down to
the reflection room to have thatreteaching might not be the
best time.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Exactly Because we are in our animal brain right
now.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So the only thing we want our reflection is to get
them into a thinking brain andthen maybe later.
So talk about your idea ofinstruction later.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Well, yes, so our instruction later, you know
happens at a certain time of day, just like you would send kids
to get reading instruction fromtitle and it happens every day
at 10 o'clock or something.
So you know a student thatneeds to reteach their behavior
and it needs to be one specificbehavior.
(20:55):
Right, we can't teach everythingat one time If we want to teach
a student to raise their handbefore just blurting out or
following directions.
So if we're doing a blurtingout, I think that last week
Nicole talked about having theyplaying a game and having the
student raise their hand.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It can.
Just, you know, teaching thatbehavior.
Yes, like what is expected.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
What are we doing?
Following direction seems to bea big one for younger students.
So playing board games wherethey have to follow directions,
and we do this for 10 minutes 10to 15 minutes, is it and then
get them back to class.
But we do it at a differenttime of day, when the child is
in their thinking brain and whenwe can also talk about feelings
.
And how do you feel now, asopposed to how did you feel
(21:38):
yesterday when there was themeltdown?
We use pictures, but reallyanybody middle school, high
school.
If students are allowed to justsit and talk with somebody at a
later time, when they're intheir thinking brain, they can
analyze how they felt, whatcaused them to feel that way and
then what can we do to preventthat from happening again.
So lots of reteaching.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I know that whenever we were looking at when school
psychologists would ask me aboutspecific behaviors that I was
very worried about, they wouldwant data on it.
So it's a very cool thing, Iwould think as you start this to
you have your data about howmany times that child has had a
poor choice marker removed fromthe office or whatever, and then
(22:20):
you start this instruction andsay you do it every day for 10
minutes per.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Two weeks, two weeks okay.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
We're not talking a year.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
No.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Okay, we're just talking five days, two weeks, 10
days, whatever, and then see ifthat eliminates the referrals
afterwards, If they transferthat knowledge that way they
were in their thinking brainback to the classroom.
Because I think you're gonnasee it will.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Absolutely.
And you know, a big part ofthis too is the teacher needs to
be on board, because what we'reteaching down here or when they
go for a reteach to managetheir behavior, we wanna share
the same language with theteacher and we want the teacher
to be watching for that.
So if we have a student thatgets very frustrated and then
(23:07):
throws a temper tantrum, butwe've taught that student some
coping skills, the teacher needsto be a part of that plan, know
the coping skills.
And also, as the child startsto, if she sees, or the teacher
sees, that the child's startingto escalate and feel frustrated,
the teacher knows hey, howabout we try?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
whatever what we've talked about, whatever coping
skill yeah, teacher's part ofthat.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
So teachers have to be a part of it to make it work,
Otherwise it won't work.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
So in our building, teachers are a big part of those
plans.
So there's a coach at everygrade level and we've talked
about that before and we've hadsome of our great coaches here
and those coaches help work andhave meetings with the teachers,
with the reflection roommate,to make sure that everybody's
what is being taught again, soteachers are not left out.
What is being taught in thosesessions, what is the behavior
(24:01):
that the student is havingtrouble with and how can we
change that?
How can we change the behavior.
And that's what PBS is allabout changing the behavior.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Positive behavior interventions and supports.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
So I guess we've talked a lot today about the
criticism of PBIS, which weheard about it when we started
that there are no consequences,we're just giving kids treats
all the time and there's nothingelse.
But I really enjoyed thispodcast.
I liked a chance for us to talkabout it and to relate it to
our reflection room which, likeI said, was Diane's brainchild.
(24:38):
But it has really made adifference in, because if you're
sitting there listening to thisand going, how am I gonna do
that?
Like the principal doesn't havetime, it doesn't have time.
But this is a way to make thathappen and it's really been
great for us.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yes, and so that podcast we keep referring to is
called Expert Instruction, theTeach by Design podcast, episode
35, which I think I'm able tolink into our show notes.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Okay, all right, that'd be great.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I'll try to do that.
Yes, I'm still learning how todo a podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yes, well, hey, we're learning something new every
day.
Well, I guess that's all wehave for today.
So thank you so much forjoining us, and if you've ever
had that idea, or somebody saidthat to you, that PBI's doesn't
have any consequences, and maybeafter listening today, you've
taken away a little a haze aboutwhat those consequences are
(25:29):
really like, and that punitiveand those don't always change
behaviors.
It's all about changingbehavior, and this is what we
want, because we want studentsthat can be in class absolutely
and can learn.
That's where they learn.
Yes, that's right and we wouldreally love to hear from you.
We had a couple emails thatwe'd gotten and responded to and
that's been awesome, so we knowwe have listeners out there.
(25:51):
Please refer to our Facebookpage and or our Instagram page,
because I post our shows onthere and notes, and then we
have PBS Tips of the Week onthere that come from our shows,
so all kinds of things to linkus back and to get and you can
(26:12):
email us at.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Absolutely.
Email us at PBISjourneyToGeniusat gmailcom.
I'm Diane Ruff.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
And I'm Diane Farrell , and thanks for listening, and
thanks for listening to PBISJourney to Genius.
Thank you, you.
Welcome to PBIS.
Journey to Genius.
Are you in the process ofimplementing PBIS?
Are you wondering where tostart?
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Speaker 2 (00:33):
Welcome back everyone .
Welcome back to our podcast.
I'm Diane Farrell and I'm herewith Diane Ruff.
We are two educators from anerve elementary and we started
a podcast all about PBIS, andDiane and I have been working
together in education for manyyears and the past 14 of those
have been on a PBIS Journey.
This podcast is not only ourstory, but the story of many
(00:55):
other award-winning schoolssharing their insights.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
So what we talk about today, diane.
Well, last week we highlightedour reflection room.
That's here at our building atthe Minerva Elementary, and the
reflection room is a place forchildren to go when they need to
come to the office.
So instead of always justsending children straight to the
office, we wanted to get awayfrom that.
(01:19):
We wanted to get children inthe office until we could figure
out exactly what was going onwith their behavior.
So this is kind of a placewhere they can go.
They can calm down, settle down.
We have an aide in there andthen she gets the stories of
teachers and kids alike and thensometimes she's able to just
get them back to class, butother times then it does come to
(01:41):
the office.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And we had never had anything like this ever.
Kids have been just comingstraight to the office and this
is actually, you know, diane'sbeing kind, but this was her
brainchild, so this was herwhole thing.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
We've had it now for probably 14 years.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I think I know, but then you and I go way back.
So when we talk about.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
We never had it.
That's in our early years ofteaching.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
It was always that when kids were, you know,
removed from our room, they weresent to the office.
That's what they did, and sothis was, like I said, diane's
brainchild, and it has beenwonderful for our school.
So we like to think of thereflection room as a time for a
child to reflect, reset andreturn.
So, the three Rs and we like toreteach behaviors for them to
(02:30):
return.
But we found that this isreally fitting into the PBIS
philosophies of appropriateconsequences.
But Diane highlighted that forme in a podcast she was
listening to Talk about that.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yes, there are other podcasts out there, although we
hope you continue to listen tous and only us.
No, that's not true, but thereis a podcast out of Oregon
called expert instruction, theteach by design podcast.
It is a PBIS podcast andepisode 35, called myth busters,
that PBIS has no consequences,actually talks a little bit
(03:09):
about this idea of consequencesand what are consequences, when
should consequences occur?
And also the fact thatconsequences don't fix the
behavior.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, a lot of times people will go and we have heard
this.
Educators will say well, youknow, pbs, all they do is give
them candy and then they sendthem back.
There's no real consequencesfor the students when they're
removed from the classroom and Iknow that that whole
acknowledgement system that'swhat we call it.
Not giving them candy is oneway of changing behavior.
(03:46):
I mean acknowledging the good.
We all like that.
Adults love that whenever we'reacknowledged for the good
things we do.
But sometimes that doesn'tchange the negative behavior by
just bringing out the positive.
You know, sometimes it doesn't.
So I think PBS has gotten.
Has gotten like a raw dealwhenever they've said well,
there's no consequence, youdon't do anything.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So this podcast if you get a chance to listen to it
like Diane you know turned meon to it and I really enjoyed it
.
So we're going to kind of usethe information from that
podcast today and we're going toalign it to our reflection room
, which we feel addresses thatidea, that busting that myth.
So they say right.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
So you know consequences should be
instructional as much aspossible.
So yes, I mean students.
If they're misbehaving on theplayground, they've hurt someone
.
There's been some kicking orpunching or whatever.
Definitely being removed fromthe playground, that's a
consequence.
Usually you lose a playgroundor a recess the next day.
That's a consequence.
(04:52):
But we don't stop there.
We then go over the expectedbehaviors.
We teach what needs to happen.
Sometimes, like our aid talkedabout, you know we'll teach
behaviors through games orwatching a video of appropriate
behavior.
Sometimes writing an apologyletter is teaching Time to think
(05:14):
the right behavior.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So you really need to listen to last week's episode
about our reflection room evenbefore you listen to this one,
if you get a chance, because ouraide does a really good job of
telling you what she actuallydoes in that reflection room.
But what?
Talking about removing astudent?
Yes, removing a student isimportant.
(05:37):
Sometimes, like now, there areall kinds of strategies that
teachers use to keep fromremoving a student.
There's redirection, there isaccenting the positive, there is
all kinds of things you knowthat toolbox teachers have.
But when that's not working andthe student needs removed, then
we have to think is justremoving them going to change
(06:01):
that behavior?
Because it usually doesn'treally, and sometimes it can be
a reward.
Yeah, sometimes childrenactually want to be removed,
because then they don't have toread, they don't have to do the
work, or they don't have to dothe work you know, and they get
out, and if they get to hang inthe office with the secretary,
that can even be more fun, andif they know that, so really
really removing a student allyou've really told that student
(06:24):
is, if I do this behavior.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I get out.
I remember when I first becamea teacher, and actually when I
was growing up, the bigconsequence was just, you know,
for elementary kids was to sitout in the hallway.
We were thrown out of theclassroom.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
We don't do that much .
Speaker 1 (06:39):
In Borbo we used to Do you remember, yeah, actually,
when I was growing up and evenwhen I first started teaching,
kids would be removed to thehallway because it was a
punishment to not be in theclassroom.
But really, really most of thekids that would end up sitting
in the hallway enjoyed that.
It was a busy place becausethey could watch everyone walk
up and down the hallway.
They didn't care so much abouttheir schoolwork.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
So we'll talk to them .
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I am so glad that we've gotten very far away from
that we have gotten very faraway from that, but that is
where it used to be.
We don't send kids into thehallway.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
If it wasn't the office, it was, it was the
hallway.
Another thing that the podcasttalked about, which I thought
was really interesting, Diane,is that sometimes, okay,
teachers are saying, okay, theyneed to be removed from my room.
That gives the student a break,that gives me break, that gives
the other students a break, butthen I don't really know what.
Like maybe I think nothinghappens to them.
(07:31):
That's why there's noconsequences, like they just get
to go down there into thisabyss of an office.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right, I've sent them to the office, but nothing
happened, nothing happened.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
So Diane's going to talk a little bit about the
Swiss program and why thataddresses that and what we do
with those reports.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Right.
So when in our building, whenit's time to send a student down
our reflection room aid, as shetalked about she usually has
the teacher fill out a form thatkind of states what's going on.
Because we always want theteacher's side of the story
first.
We're not going to listen tothe student tell us what
happened.
We want to know what reallyhappened from the teacher and
(08:10):
then when we get the child down,our reflection roommate will
get the child's side of thestory.
Listen to the child, because alot of times we're removing
because they're melting down forsome reason and we want to know
why they're melting down.
It's important to get their sidetoo.
It is so, you know, oncethey're down in the reflection
room and this student calms down, she gets their side of the
story.
That's where it will help usdig down deep into that
(08:33):
antecedent, which what actuallyled into the removal.
After that it usually comesdirectly to myself or the
assistant principal and then wemake a phone call home because
that's part of the consequence.
We want the parent to knowexactly what's going on.
We also record all of it inwhat we call we've talked about
(08:56):
this before our Swiss and theteacher gets a printout of.
You know what the consequenceis.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
That's the key, right there, Because when they were
talking in that's the genius.
That's the genius Because whenthey were talking in that
podcast, they said that withoutthat communication that teacher
has no way of knowing what wasdone.
So with that Swiss report thatyou give that well the
reflection, roommate does, orthe principal, if they're the
(09:23):
one doing the behavior, if it'sa major behavior, that teacher
gets a copy in her mailbox.
So now she knows exactly whatwas done and there's no nothing
was done, Like they know whatthat consequence was.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yes, yes, so you know , we also a lot of times we'll,
if it comes to the principal, alot of times we'll walk the
student back up to class andwe'll briefly, you know, check
in with the teacher quickly, butit's all recorded on the Swiss
paper that they can see that.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
And, like she said, the teacher gets a copy of it.
It goes, of course, on theSwiss documentation, the school
counselor because, if you don'tknow from us, I am a retired
school counselor.
I was part of the schoolcounseling system for the past
many years and I would get acopy of this too.
Now you say, well, what doesthe school counselor do with
that every time?
Well, I didn't do anything withit, but it was information Like
(10:18):
, and then I could see if I gotseveral of those something's
going on.
So then maybe I did need tointeract, you know, get a hold
of the student and find out ifthere was a bigger problem.
So it's all about information,and in the podcast they talked
about the fact of just the moreinformation, the better you know
(10:38):
, and when people aren'tinformed about that, they think
nothing's happening.
Nothing's happening.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
And that's not true.
So a lot of times when we haveto actually remove a child out
of the classroom, it is a tempertantrum of some sort.
So after we get the student tocalm down and we've talked to
the parent and there might besome consequence in there, a lot
of times talking to the parentis the consequence, though, you
know.
(11:04):
But then the next step is toreally determine what is causing
the meltdown.
What is that in a seatant, andthen moving to start helping the
child.
We're dealing with a childright now that gets very upset,
overwhelmed with the workload.
A young student getsoverwhelmed with the workload
(11:26):
and so, you know, takes a lookat whatever's required and then
they don't wanna do it, they getdefiant, and part of this is a
trauma situation.
So we know, with trauma kids,they wanna try to control their
environment as much as possible.
So how do we help this child?
Give them control, stop themeltdowns and do the work okay?
(11:50):
So there's lots of thingsinvolved there.
If we were just punishing, wewouldn't be helping this child
at all.
So one of the things we've beenlooking at is we've adjusted
the academics.
We're doing some pre-teachingso the child isn't overwhelmed
when they see the next conceptcoming up.
They've already have beenbriefed on it, so it's not a big
(12:12):
surprise.
The re-teaching comes intocoping skills.
How am I going to when I startto feel frustrated?
And we've talked about well Idon't know if we've talked-
about zones of regulation.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So much here.
We have not talked yet.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But we use zones of regulation here and so teaching
kids to recognize and verbalizehow they're feeling, and then so
, working with this student, shebegins to feel very frustrated.
So then she's got places thatshe could look at on her.
She's got a chart in front ofher for coping skills to help
(12:46):
her.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So those are tools.
So those are tools.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
So we're teaching and we're spending time outside of
the academics to teach that.
So, again, because we want herto stay in the classroom, Be
successful and stay in the room.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
So, at the end of the day, removing that student from
the room is probably not goingto change that behavior.
Just removal will not changeJust removal will not.
Because she's still going to befrustrated with a large workload
Whether you take her down tothe office or not, and she's
probably gonna like being in theoffice because now she doesn't
have to do the work.
So you know it's a win-win forher.
But removing that studentshouldn't be the end of the
(13:25):
interaction.
It should only be the beginning, and so that's what Diane is
just talking about strategies tohelp them be back in that
classroom, because that's whatyou want.
You want them to be back in theclassroom.
Another thing we talked aboutlast week that I thought was
really important to bring up isyour established procedure for
(13:46):
removal.
So we go back to that T-chartagain.
That's very important.
So that's classroom-managedbehaviors, you know,
office-managed behaviors and theflow chart that goes with that,
so that everybody is on thesame page about when the
reflection roommate is to becalled, when she needs to come
(14:07):
in.
If you listened to that lastweek, she's great.
So you need to listen to thatwhen she talks about what she
does when she comes to the roomto assess the situation, to get
the student to come with her fora little bit, and all that kind
of thing.
But, knowing that predeterminedprocedure, have a plan.
What is the plan?
We're not gonna lead by emotion, because emotion is I'm fed up
(14:31):
with this and I'm just calling.
You know, get them out.
But that's not the way it needsto happen.
And the and that T chart thatpredetermined that flow chart,
that is really, really important.
Most of you should have that'spart of your tier one, but the
reflection room in our flowchart is a big piece of that.
When does that come into playNow?
(14:53):
Um, we talked about consistencyamongst classrooms.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yes, and so this is really a big deal, especially
maybe at the high school level,middle school level and upper
elementary, when students areswitching classes, Because you
know you can have your commonrules throughout the building.
Ours is be safe, responsibleand respectful, but each teacher
has their own way of doingthings and, um, maybe you know,
(15:20):
in an English class they doliterature circles and they're
allowed to talk to each otherand share ideas.
All those conversations, thosesidebar conversations, but in
another classroom, maybe in inmath class or social studies,
it's supposed to be much quieterand really no talking going on.
Uh, so you know, our studentsneed to know the expectations
(15:42):
and be reminded of themconstantly.
I know here in our building too.
They come from gym class wherethey're allowed to run around
scream, yell and scream.
Yes, but then getting them backinto transitioning back into the
classroom, the teacher needs todo a little reminder of all
right the expectations in theclassroom are and then rattle
off the expectations at thebeginning, because that will
(16:05):
stop any confusion with students.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And I think sometimes we take for granted, just like
we do with PBIS rules, that oncetaught, always learned, and
that's not the, that's not thetruth.
And so when those students comeback into you, you know from
another classroom or whateverand you have your expectations
for your class.
I'm not saying that kids aren'tgoing to break those rules and
(16:28):
I'm not saying they're not goingto all do what they're supposed
to be doing, and some kids arejust going to do what they're
supposed to do every time theycome in because they just will.
But reminding that, having thatfront loading, like Diane was
talking about, as soon as youall sit down, now remember,
let's remember the rules of theroom and then having that just
putting that out there with thembefore it even starts and they
(16:50):
said that in this podcast and Ithought that was really good.
And you know, just because evenwhen we go to workshops and
things like that, you don't youdon't even know what it's going
to be like until the presentertells you what is it, you know?
Speaker 1 (17:05):
and they will get up and go to the bathroom.
They do, they set theparameters, you know a lot of
times.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
So we think about that.
As adults, we want to know whatam I going to be allowed to do
here?
Well, I think we just assumechildren can do that.
So so that was in the podcast.
I really liked it that theytalked about that and I think
you know us as educators, andteachers should just take those
couple you know minutes to frontload our kids again about the
(17:31):
expectations of the room or thelesson you know and what we were
going to do before behaviorstarts.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
It really needs to be done almost daily, because
children are children.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Children are children and each lesson can be
different.
Yes, yeah.
You know, in this lesson this isgoing to be allowed, but then
maybe this lesson is gonna bemore lecture.
So just thinking about that,you know, out there as just
another way to handle behaviorsand kind of, you know, put those
expectations out, just like weput expectations out in the
(18:05):
building.
You know everything as we werelooking at the podcast again.
Another thing they talked aboutis thinking of instruction, not
retribution, and I like thattoo, not kicking a student out,
yelling at them, humiliatingthem.
You know they talked about evenlabeling them as a troublemaker
(18:27):
.
You know, really, that is notgonna change any of that
behavior long-term.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
No, it really doesn't .
You need to address thebehavior, administer the
consequence, but then you needto figure out why that behavior
is happening and begin to helpthat student change their
behavior through reteaching orcoping skills and getting them
to recognize how they're feeling.
Just like I, you know a middleschooler can feel very
frustrated and have an outburst,and the teacher might not even
(18:57):
know that the student's havingfrustration.
Right yeah, so you know.
And then outbursts are notallowed.
So what can you do differentlywhen you're feeling frustrated
and our middle school.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
She just said middle school has put the reflection,
so they have taken our model ofour reflection room.
And what is it?
Speaker 1 (19:15):
two years now, I think so They've done it.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I think they have done that model over there,
helping middle school kids, youknow, redirect their behavior,
rethink, reflect and front loadbefore they go back in the room.
So, again, it is removal, youknow it is, but it's removal
with instruction, and I thinkthat that is so key and what I
(19:40):
saw really aligned with thisPBIS.
It's genius.
It's genius, isn't it?
Well, diane and remember I'mnot here anymore, but I'm loving
to hear what goes on here andtalk about it with you all is
talking about not only doingthat in the moment, but then
doing that as an actual setaside time to do it.
(20:02):
And I guess you know Diane wasalways good at telling me about
the animal brain and thethinking brain she used to tell
me about that all the time.
Are we in our animal brain?
Okay, so we have to think aboutwhen a student comes down to
the reflection room to have thatreteaching might not be the
best time.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Exactly Because we are in our animal brain right
now.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So the only thing we want our reflection is to get
them into a thinking brain andthen maybe later.
So talk about your idea ofinstruction later.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Well, yes, so our instruction later, you know
happens at a certain time of day, just like you would send kids
to get reading instruction fromtitle and it happens every day
at 10 o'clock or something.
So you know a student thatneeds to reteach their behavior
and it needs to be one specificbehavior.
(20:55):
Right, we can't teach everythingat one time If we want to teach
a student to raise their handbefore just blurting out or
following directions.
So if we're doing a blurtingout, I think that last week
Nicole talked about having theyplaying a game and having the
student raise their hand.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It can.
Just, you know, teaching thatbehavior.
Yes, like what is expected.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
What are we doing?
Following direction seems to bea big one for younger students.
So playing board games wherethey have to follow directions,
and we do this for 10 minutes 10to 15 minutes, is it and then
get them back to class.
But we do it at a differenttime of day, when the child is
in their thinking brain and whenwe can also talk about feelings
.
And how do you feel now, asopposed to how did you feel
(21:38):
yesterday when there was themeltdown?
We use pictures, but reallyanybody middle school, high
school.
If students are allowed to justsit and talk with somebody at a
later time, when they're intheir thinking brain, they can
analyze how they felt, whatcaused them to feel that way and
then what can we do to preventthat from happening again.
So lots of reteaching.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I know that whenever we were looking at when school
psychologists would ask me aboutspecific behaviors that I was
very worried about, they wouldwant data on it.
So it's a very cool thing, Iwould think as you start this to
you have your data about howmany times that child has had a
poor choice marker removed fromthe office or whatever, and then
(22:20):
you start this instruction andsay you do it every day for 10
minutes per.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Two weeks, two weeks okay.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
We're not talking a year.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
No.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Okay, we're just talking five days, two weeks, 10
days, whatever, and then see ifthat eliminates the referrals
afterwards, If they transferthat knowledge that way they
were in their thinking brainback to the classroom.
Because I think you're gonnasee it will.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Absolutely.
And you know, a big part ofthis too is the teacher needs to
be on board, because what we'reteaching down here or when they
go for a reteach to managetheir behavior, we wanna share
the same language with theteacher and we want the teacher
to be watching for that.
So if we have a student thatgets very frustrated and then
(23:07):
throws a temper tantrum, butwe've taught that student some
coping skills, the teacher needsto be a part of that plan, know
the coping skills.
And also, as the child startsto, if she sees, or the teacher
sees, that the child's startingto escalate and feel frustrated,
the teacher knows hey, howabout we try?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
whatever what we've talked about, whatever coping
skill yeah, teacher's part ofthat.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
So teachers have to be a part of it to make it work,
Otherwise it won't work.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
So in our building, teachers are a big part of those
plans.
So there's a coach at everygrade level and we've talked
about that before and we've hadsome of our great coaches here
and those coaches help work andhave meetings with the teachers,
with the reflection roommate,to make sure that everybody's
what is being taught again, soteachers are not left out.
What is being taught in thosesessions, what is the behavior
(24:01):
that the student is havingtrouble with and how can we
change that?
How can we change the behavior.
And that's what PBS is allabout changing the behavior.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Positive behavior interventions and supports.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
So I guess we've talked a lot today about the
criticism of PBIS, which weheard about it when we started
that there are no consequences,we're just giving kids treats
all the time and there's nothingelse.
But I really enjoyed thispodcast.
I liked a chance for us to talkabout it and to relate it to
our reflection room which, likeI said, was Diane's brainchild.
(24:38):
But it has really made adifference in, because if you're
sitting there listening to thisand going, how am I gonna do
that?
Like the principal doesn't havetime, it doesn't have time.
But this is a way to make thathappen and it's really been
great for us.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yes, and so that podcast we keep referring to is
called Expert Instruction, theTeach by Design podcast, episode
35, which I think I'm able tolink into our show notes.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Okay, all right, that'd be great.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I'll try to do that.
Yes, I'm still learning how todo a podcast.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yes, well, hey, we're learning something new every
day.
Well, I guess that's all wehave for today.
So thank you so much forjoining us, and if you've ever
had that idea, or somebody saidthat to you, that PBI's doesn't
have any consequences, and maybeafter listening today, you've
taken away a little a haze aboutwhat those consequences are
(25:29):
really like, and that punitiveand those don't always change
behaviors.
It's all about changingbehavior, and this is what we
want, because we want studentsthat can be in class absolutely
and can learn.
That's where they learn.
Yes, that's right and we wouldreally love to hear from you.
We had a couple emails thatwe'd gotten and responded to and
that's been awesome, so we knowwe have listeners out there.
(25:51):
Please refer to our Facebookpage and or our Instagram page,
because I post our shows onthere and notes, and then we
have PBS Tips of the Week onthere that come from our shows,
so all kinds of things to linkus back and to get and you can
(26:12):
email us at.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Absolutely.
Email us at PBISjourneyToGeniusat gmailcom.
I'm Diane Ruff.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
And I'm Diane Farrell , and thanks for listening, and
thanks for listening to PBISJourney to Genius.
Thank you, you.
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