October 26, 2023 • 19 mins
What if there was a way to create a school environment that promotes good behavior, not by punishing the bad, but by positively reinforcing the good? Picture a school in which staff have a substantial say in shaping a framework to maintain discipline and order, a place where rules are clear, expectations are high, and equity is the order of the day. This is the promise of Positive Behavior, Intervention, and Support (PBIS), and that's what we're discussing in this insightful episode.
As we progress, we take the PBIS concept into the classroom, shedding light on the importance of creating rules, designing a behavior matrix, and differentiating between major and minor behaviors. We touch on the essence of a reward system that values experiences over mere trinkets, one that respects teacher autonomy. And as we wrap up this episode, we share our journey of implementing PBIS, underscoring why staff input is invaluable in this process. Plus, we're excited to leave you with a teaser for our next episode, featuring a teacher whose input was instrumental in our PBIS journey right from its inception. Tune in and join the conversation on PBIS, as we endeavor to create better learning environments for our kids.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to PBIS.
Journey to Genius.
Are you in the process ofimplementing PBIS?
Are you wondering where tostart?
You are in the right place.
We are here to support you.
Stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Alright, welcome back everybody.
This is the podcast we puttogether.
My name is Diane Farrell andI'm here with Diane Ruff.
And we have worked together formany years and we have put
together our positive behavior,intervention and support system
and we're going back in time alittle bit, coming forward and
telling you our ups and downsand what has happened and
(00:57):
putting that together.
So our last episode we had lastweek, we interviewed a
principal that was with us atthat time and helped us go
through that change.
And now we're going on to takethe next step Diane, what are we
doing?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well, like you said, the last episode.
The big takeaway from thatepisode was, you know, to focus
on the adults when getting readyto implement PBIS.
Oftentimes, when schooladministrators make a large
scale change, they don'tconsider the staff.
We must honor the fact that allstaff come to an organization
with their own special talent orgenius.
(01:34):
Whether you are bringingschools together or just making
a monumental change, we need towork with the genius within the
staff.
So today we kind of want toexplain what we mean by using a
framework.
What is a PBIS framework?
So we want to talk a little bitabout what goes into a
(01:55):
framework and how you can startputting this together and
tapping into the genius of yourstaff.
So what is a framework?
Diane?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, so many people whenever they start.
When we started PBIS because wewere looking for that answer to
behavior Just to recap a littlebit we were bringing two
buildings together into one andwe had different behavior
systems and we had lots ofdifferent staff that were used
to different things we werelooking for that.
Pbis was coming out into theeducation world and we heard
(02:25):
about it and we were like, okay,so we wanted a manual.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
We did.
We were expecting a manual thatsaid do this, this and this,
step one.
And we found out very quicklythat a framework is not a manual
.
You literally have to createyour framework and all
frameworks are a little bitdifferent.
Our framework at MES is muchdifferent from a framework maybe
in your school or a school thatyou might know about.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So whenever schools a lot of schools understand feel
this way though, when they getit, because they're looking for
that easy manual.
But Diane and I found out thatthat is a little bit of genius
that they don't give it to you,because it does make you develop
what works for you, and thatcan be painful because you just
(03:12):
want an easy teacher's manual.
That's what you want.
You want, this is all I need todo.
I don't want to spend any timeon it and we'll just make this
work, but that's not what reallyworks.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
No, and we're very busy people so we're used to
getting things like that.
So we found out that you haveto develop a framework.
So the very first thing that werealized well, I guess there
are five elements to a framework.
So when developing a framework,you need to think about equity,
how you're going to adaptpractices to meet all the
(03:41):
student needs, and that's allstudents.
You need to think about thesystems in your building the
routines, procedures, stafftraining.
The third you want to have data.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
That's right.
That's a big thing.
We found out that data driveseverything, especially in
ministry.
Yes, so data, data, data, andwe're going to talk about that
too.
But data is very important toevaluate your practices and find
out if they're being successful.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Another one is your practices.
How are you intervening withbehavior?
What are your strategies, andare they backed by research?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Your goal is to improve behavior.
That's what you want.
Social, emotional, academic.
You need to improve thatbehavior.
That's what this is all about.
So how do you do it?
Whenever we started, because wewere talking to some people,
and even people that didn't havePBIS yet in their schools, and
(04:40):
they were like, okay, why do Ieven want to do this?
What is in this for me and howdo I start?
What do I think about?
Because there's not thatteacher's manual.
So Diane and I went togetherand said okay, why do I want to
do this One?
It is to decrease behavior inyour schools Miss behavior.
(05:01):
To improve good behavior and todecrease poor behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That's exactly what you want to do.
The whole focus is preventionand not punishment.
So we got very excited when weheard that because we thought,
all right, this is the road wewant to go down.
We want to start training kids,students, on what we expect and
how we expect them to behave ina school.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So we talked about that before and that Diane and I
have been in education a longtime We've been here for 35 some
years and we decide and it iskids, don't come in with the
behavior that they used to.
They just don't.
The expected behaviors thatwere there in that traditional
classroom when we went to schoolare just not there.
(05:45):
So we can't just throw the kidsout the door.
I mean, we can't keepsuspending them and that was
actually another thing that kindof drove this, I remember, in
the beginning, because there wasa big deterrent for suspension.
So the state of Ohio is likeyou can't just keep kicking them
out, you have something needsto be done.
Suspension is not the answerand we know with elementary
(06:09):
children you can't just sendthem home if parents can't be
there.
So what are you going to do?
So the big thing that we talkedabout in starting this
framework was what are the bigrules?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
that you want to happen in the building, and we
thought, too, that we could justdevelop it Michelle, diane,
myself that we could sit downand start.
Really okay, here's what webelieve the three big rules
should be, or the five big rules, and also we could have sat
down and just started creatingour matrix of expected behaviors
(06:43):
in the building.
But we really didn't want to godown that road again because,
as we talked before withMichelle, it doesn't work well
when you require teachers to dothings without input.
So we had learned a lessonthere, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
If you didn't listen to our podcast before.
Michelle Nervo was ourprincipal at the time that we
were going through this and sherealized that it is very
difficult to tell teachers whatto do all the time and them not
to have input in it.
So we found that out, weunderstood that, we heard it,
and so we wanted them to beinvolved.
(07:20):
So we wanted them, and that'sone of our big takeaways.
We want you all to know is thatthe more staff input you have
in all this, the better.
Right, I mean absolutely thebetter.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
We actually offered an in-service day at the end of
at the end of school into Juneand we put it out to everyone to
come.
And the very first thing we didis we asked our people what do
you want, kids, what big rulesdo you want in our school?
And we gave them some ideas wetalked about you know.
Here's what other schools aredoing.
They talk about because we wantto be positive.
(07:52):
So being safe, beingresponsible, being respectful
and that ended up being ourthree big rules.
Our teachers liked that.
They thought they could getbehind that.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
And they tell you to keep it to three.
So you remember it.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
It's a three to five right, because if you get too,
many.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
if you get too many, after three people go.
Um, that's true, but if you can, you know three is.
Some people go up to five,maybe the middle schools or high
schools, but especially inelementary, three is a great
number because they can rememberthree, and that's what you want
.
You want them to remember.
And also, when you're pickingout rules for areas of the
(08:28):
building, keep it concise too.
If you get too many, thenthat's too much too.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
So you got to what are the big things you want to
happen in all parts of yourbuilding and you need your
teachers to be a part of thatbecause, as we talked before,
teachers make a lot of decisionsevery single day, and so you
know they need to be on boardwith your three big rules and
coming into a consensus.
So that's one of the very firstthings you want to do in
developing your framework.
(08:54):
And then the second thing youwant to do in developing your
framework is to talk about thematrix.
We call it the matrix.
We actually have one on ourwebsite.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It's not a movie, so you can that's true.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
You can take a look at our matrix and we can
actually probably even put amatrix in here.
I think that we can drop it inhere in our notes.
But taking a look at thatmatrix and what the matrix is is
, we are defining behavior,expected behavior throughout the
building, and your teachers areyour resource on that.
They know how they wantchildren to behave throughout
(09:30):
the building, even middle schooland high school.
What do you want your students,how do you want them to act and
behave in the big areas of thebuilding, in the hallways, in
the cafeteria, in the restrooms?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
And it is so important that everybody's on
board with that, because let'sjust even think like in
elementary, we want everyonequiet in the hallways.
That's important becauseelementary students don't always
change classes at the same time, so that way there's some
students in class that aretrying to learn when others are
walking down.
So that's important.
Middle school, that's not asimportant.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
That was the turning point yes, it was.
Because we had a group ofteachers come together anybody
that wanted to be there and whenwe started talking about what
do you want kids to do, how doyou want them to behave, in the
hallway, every single teacher atthe table said we want them to
be quiet.
That was huge buy-in and thatwas kind of like our starting
point.
We're like, okay, we can makethat happen.
And with the matrix, then youhave to actually say the
(10:26):
behavior you're going to see,we're gonna see kids walking.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Everything needs to be said in the positive.
It's just like don't say don'trun down the hall, Say I like
the way you walk down the hallbecause the child's going to do
what you say.
So everything needs to be saidin the positive as to what you
want.
But really those expectedbehaviors and everybody being on
board with them is the only waythat you'll always get them
(10:51):
reinforced.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
And the more teachers you can include in helping you
develop a matrix, the better.
So we're gonna be talking a lotabout the matrix in our next
couple of episodes, but wewanted you to understand what a
matrix is.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
So the first.
So in our advice to gettingstarted, start out with three
big rules, at least that youwant across your building, that
every rule's gonna fall underthose.
Safe, responsible, respectfulare ours, but maybe you come up
with some other catchy ones, butthose are quick, easy and kids
know Is that safe, is thatresponsible, is that respectful?
(11:26):
Second advice is start thatmatrix.
I mean, I think sometimes whenpeople wanna do PBIS they just
get overwhelmed.
They think to the end, likeI've gotta do all this stuff and
Diane and I are here to takeyou through step by step.
It's not, you're not at the endyet.
That took us years.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Start simple and the matrix is your beginning and
really in a year's time, if youcan get your three to five rules
and your matrix and then onemore definitions of major and
minor behaviors so important youare off to a very good start.
And again, all of those thingsneed to be developed with your
staff.
So, definitions of major andminor behaviors, that's huge.
(12:09):
We did a big chart paperbecause some people think that
maybe bringing well back in theday.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I don't know now so much.
We like to say that back in theday, but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
This would have been a good 20 years ago or so.
Kids would be in trouble fornot bringing a pencil to class
or not having a pencil beingsent to the office.
Well, is that really a majormisbehavior?
Is that a need to?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
go to the office.
We think about that and, likeDiannaia, having taught a long
time ago, some teachers willkeep kids in the room for many
behaviors and then when theybring that behavior to the
office, it might be a minorbehavior, but they have had it,
so they want maximum punishment.
Well, as an administrator,that's not fair to you, because
(12:55):
you don't know what's led up tothat and you don't know, whereas
another teacher may just go.
You know, I don't have time forthis, I'm just even minor
behavior.
So it's really important to dothose major and minor behaviors
and everybody to be aware of it.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yes, yes, and so we're going to talk a lot more
about how you know what ourmajor and minors look like, and
how teachers develop it, how weput ours together.
So that will be in futureepisodes.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And really honestly, once that happened, teachers
were released.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And administrators.
I was relieved because now Ihad a guideline to follow too.
We had the matrix in place.
Everywhere you go in thebuilding, everyone knows, from
specials teachers to aides toadministrators, how students are
supposed to behave, and we evenmake our substitutes aware
because we want them followingour matrix as well.
(13:47):
So the matrix is just huge.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Matrix is huge.
Major and minors are huge and,like Diane said, getting those
three big rules and those threethings are the biggest thing you
can get going.
Now the other one that isimportant and if you work on it
that first year is the rewardsystem.
You need something in place foryour whole building, I mean,
(14:12):
because that's going to help allthose other things happen.
And don't get too overwhelmedwith that either.
I mean, we will talk to you alot of in-depth individual
behavior charts and rewards andthings like that that we've got.
But if you just overall startat what does that reward system
like?
If it comes from the office, ifit comes from the classroom,
(14:34):
what is it going to look like?
But again, even though and it'salso important we don't want to
take autonomy away fromteachers.
They want to do little moneysystems in their classrooms.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
That's all okay, teachers can have that autonomy
in their room.
Yeah, you bring up a good point, because the one thing that the
matrix or, I'm sorry, just thewhole framework, it's more
building wide.
It doesn't really get specificinto classrooms and in our
building teachers were afraid wewere going to come into the
(15:08):
classroom and tell them how todiscipline per se.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
So if they wanted to do that money banking system, we
were going to tell them we justhad the and that is not true.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Had this for the school, the matrix for the
school, but then we wantedteachers to also carry through
with be safe, be responsible,respectful and what does that
look like in my classroom?
And then developing that withthe students.
And yes, you have to have thatreward system or acknowledgement
system in place, and we'regoing to talk a lot about what
(15:37):
that looks like For us In aschool wide Look differently for
you.
Individually, and then itdoesn't have to be monetary.
I think a lot of schools thinkthat we have to have a lot of
monetary kinds of prizes orthings, but an acknowledgement
system.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Dain and I are very adamant about, not trinkets and
things like that.
If you, as a teacher, want todo that, more power to you.
I knew teachers who want to getrid of their McDonald's toys.
That's up to you, but we hereat Minerva Elementary always
like to have experiences, and sowe can talk things about that.
But it's just having yourpicture on Facebook or doing
(16:17):
things that are specialprivileges for you to do and
experiences and that's such adifferent type of reward system
Doesn't cost any money and a lotof times it's much more to them
than a little trinket orsomething like that.
So we really like to look atthat type of a reward system.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
So if you're listening and your school does
not have PBIS in place, you canstill put all of these things in
place in your own classroom.
You know you can come up and Iwould do this with your students
and make sure your studentshave buy-in Again.
You don't want to mandate thisto your students, but rather you
could brainstorm one day in aclass meeting what big rules
(16:59):
should we have in our classroomand then what does behavior look
like in our classroom?
And create a small matrix.
I think we had a kindergartenteacher last year create a small
matrix for her kindergartenclassroom.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So, and I think that's awesome, I had a teacher
talk to me about that.
This really wasn't part oftheir school.
She really wanted to start it.
New teachers coming out ofcollege trying to get that
behavioral system in their room,which might not be across the
board yet, but you know what?
Success is contagious.
So like if you start thislittle system in your classroom
(17:36):
and then your neighboringteacher looks over and goes hmm,
you know, I really like whatyou're doing and I take data on
it.
You know how many do not.
You know, don't have it in thebeginning.
How many times did you haveoffice referrals?
How many times did you?
And then start that and thensee what it's like towards your
Christmas or the end of the year.
But if you start doing that andthen your neighbor wants to
(17:57):
jump on board with that, thenanother neighbor, then you're
gonna have administratorslooking at you like, hmm, this
might be a thing we wanna do,building wide.
So don't be afraid to start itin your classroom, in your own
room, in your own room, cause itcan easily be done and your
students, kindergarten to 12thgrade, will like to be a part of
(18:17):
the management of theirclassroom.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
When students are a part of it, they have buy-in,
just like we said with teachers.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
You know when people are a part of it, and that's the
voice behind student councils.
You know all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Voice with a choice, voice with a choice and honoring
the genius within each person.
I love it.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I do, I absolutely do .
Well, diane, are we about atthe end of this podcast?
I think we are.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I just wanted to kind of you know, define what we're
talking about, in case you'renot really sure, because as we
move forward, we're going tohave lots of guests with us and
we're going to continue to talkabout the process, how we
develop certain things, and justgetting that input from the
staff.
I love hearing from the staffand their viewpoint.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
So that was a big thing we wanted to talk about
today, but I'm glad we took aminute.
Like you said, we called thiskind of a nuts and bolts.
Next week I hope you join usbecause we're going to have a
teacher come who was there rightin the beginning.
She was an RTI coach and shehelped with that beginning
framework and what it was likeputting those two buildings
together.
Next week's episode is called avoice with a choice.
(19:22):
We're excited even about thattitle, so I hope you come back
and you talk with us next time.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
My name is Diane Barrow and I'm Diane Ruff, and
we are super glad that youjoined us today.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
All right Journey with two PBIS Journey to Genius.
Welcome to PBIS.
Journey to Genius.
Are you in the process ofimplementing PBIS?
Are you wondering where tostart?
You are in the right place.
We are here to support you.
Stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Alright, welcome back everybody.
This is the podcast we puttogether.
My name is Diane Farrell andI'm here with Diane Ruff.
And we have worked together formany years and we have put
together our positive behavior,intervention and support system
and we're going back in time alittle bit, coming forward and
telling you our ups and downsand what has happened and
(00:57):
putting that together.
So our last episode we had lastweek, we interviewed a
principal that was with us atthat time and helped us go
through that change.
And now we're going on to takethe next step Diane, what are we
doing?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Well, like you said, the last episode.
The big takeaway from thatepisode was, you know, to focus
on the adults when getting readyto implement PBIS.
Oftentimes, when schooladministrators make a large
scale change, they don'tconsider the staff.
We must honor the fact that allstaff come to an organization
with their own special talent orgenius.
(01:34):
Whether you are bringingschools together or just making
a monumental change, we need towork with the genius within the
staff.
So today we kind of want toexplain what we mean by using a
framework.
What is a PBIS framework?
So we want to talk a little bitabout what goes into a
(01:55):
framework and how you can startputting this together and
tapping into the genius of yourstaff.
So what is a framework?
Diane?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, so many people whenever they start.
When we started PBIS because wewere looking for that answer to
behavior Just to recap a littlebit we were bringing two
buildings together into one andwe had different behavior
systems and we had lots ofdifferent staff that were used
to different things we werelooking for that.
Pbis was coming out into theeducation world and we heard
(02:25):
about it and we were like, okay,so we wanted a manual.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
We did.
We were expecting a manual thatsaid do this, this and this,
step one.
And we found out very quicklythat a framework is not a manual
.
You literally have to createyour framework and all
frameworks are a little bitdifferent.
Our framework at MES is muchdifferent from a framework maybe
in your school or a school thatyou might know about.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
So whenever schools a lot of schools understand feel
this way though, when they getit, because they're looking for
that easy manual.
But Diane and I found out thatthat is a little bit of genius
that they don't give it to you,because it does make you develop
what works for you, and thatcan be painful because you just
(03:12):
want an easy teacher's manual.
That's what you want.
You want, this is all I need todo.
I don't want to spend any timeon it and we'll just make this
work, but that's not what reallyworks.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
No, and we're very busy people so we're used to
getting things like that.
So we found out that you haveto develop a framework.
So the very first thing that werealized well, I guess there
are five elements to a framework.
So when developing a framework,you need to think about equity,
how you're going to adaptpractices to meet all the
(03:41):
student needs, and that's allstudents.
You need to think about thesystems in your building the
routines, procedures, stafftraining.
The third you want to have data.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
That's right.
That's a big thing.
We found out that data driveseverything, especially in
ministry.
Yes, so data, data, data, andwe're going to talk about that
too.
But data is very important toevaluate your practices and find
out if they're being successful.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Another one is your practices.
How are you intervening withbehavior?
What are your strategies, andare they backed by research?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Your goal is to improve behavior.
That's what you want.
Social, emotional, academic.
You need to improve thatbehavior.
That's what this is all about.
So how do you do it?
Whenever we started, because wewere talking to some people,
and even people that didn't havePBIS yet in their schools, and
(04:40):
they were like, okay, why do Ieven want to do this?
What is in this for me and howdo I start?
What do I think about?
Because there's not thatteacher's manual.
So Diane and I went togetherand said okay, why do I want to
do this One?
It is to decrease behavior inyour schools Miss behavior.
(05:01):
To improve good behavior and todecrease poor behavior.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That's exactly what you want to do.
The whole focus is preventionand not punishment.
So we got very excited when weheard that because we thought,
all right, this is the road wewant to go down.
We want to start training kids,students, on what we expect and
how we expect them to behave ina school.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So we talked about that before and that Diane and I
have been in education a longtime We've been here for 35 some
years and we decide and it iskids, don't come in with the
behavior that they used to.
They just don't.
The expected behaviors thatwere there in that traditional
classroom when we went to schoolare just not there.
(05:45):
So we can't just throw the kidsout the door.
I mean, we can't keepsuspending them and that was
actually another thing that kindof drove this, I remember, in
the beginning, because there wasa big deterrent for suspension.
So the state of Ohio is likeyou can't just keep kicking them
out, you have something needsto be done.
Suspension is not the answerand we know with elementary
(06:09):
children you can't just sendthem home if parents can't be
there.
So what are you going to do?
So the big thing that we talkedabout in starting this
framework was what are the bigrules?
Speaker 1 (06:22):
that you want to happen in the building, and we
thought, too, that we could justdevelop it Michelle, diane,
myself that we could sit downand start.
Really okay, here's what webelieve the three big rules
should be, or the five big rules, and also we could have sat
down and just started creatingour matrix of expected behaviors
(06:43):
in the building.
But we really didn't want to godown that road again because,
as we talked before withMichelle, it doesn't work well
when you require teachers to dothings without input.
So we had learned a lessonthere, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
If you didn't listen to our podcast before.
Michelle Nervo was ourprincipal at the time that we
were going through this and sherealized that it is very
difficult to tell teachers whatto do all the time and them not
to have input in it.
So we found that out, weunderstood that, we heard it,
and so we wanted them to beinvolved.
(07:20):
So we wanted them, and that'sone of our big takeaways.
We want you all to know is thatthe more staff input you have
in all this, the better.
Right, I mean absolutely thebetter.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
We actually offered an in-service day at the end of
at the end of school into Juneand we put it out to everyone to
come.
And the very first thing we didis we asked our people what do
you want, kids, what big rulesdo you want in our school?
And we gave them some ideas wetalked about you know.
Here's what other schools aredoing.
They talk about because we wantto be positive.
(07:52):
So being safe, beingresponsible, being respectful
and that ended up being ourthree big rules.
Our teachers liked that.
They thought they could getbehind that.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
And they tell you to keep it to three.
So you remember it.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
It's a three to five right, because if you get too,
many.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
if you get too many, after three people go.
Um, that's true, but if you can, you know three is.
Some people go up to five,maybe the middle schools or high
schools, but especially inelementary, three is a great
number because they can rememberthree, and that's what you want
.
You want them to remember.
And also, when you're pickingout rules for areas of the
(08:28):
building, keep it concise too.
If you get too many, thenthat's too much too.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
So you got to what are the big things you want to
happen in all parts of yourbuilding and you need your
teachers to be a part of thatbecause, as we talked before,
teachers make a lot of decisionsevery single day, and so you
know they need to be on boardwith your three big rules and
coming into a consensus.
So that's one of the very firstthings you want to do in
developing your framework.
(08:54):
And then the second thing youwant to do in developing your
framework is to talk about thematrix.
We call it the matrix.
We actually have one on ourwebsite.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It's not a movie, so you can that's true.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
You can take a look at our matrix and we can
actually probably even put amatrix in here.
I think that we can drop it inhere in our notes.
But taking a look at thatmatrix and what the matrix is is
, we are defining behavior,expected behavior throughout the
building, and your teachers areyour resource on that.
They know how they wantchildren to behave throughout
(09:30):
the building, even middle schooland high school.
What do you want your students,how do you want them to act and
behave in the big areas of thebuilding, in the hallways, in
the cafeteria, in the restrooms?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
And it is so important that everybody's on
board with that, because let'sjust even think like in
elementary, we want everyonequiet in the hallways.
That's important becauseelementary students don't always
change classes at the same time, so that way there's some
students in class that aretrying to learn when others are
walking down.
So that's important.
Middle school, that's not asimportant.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
That was the turning point yes, it was.
Because we had a group ofteachers come together anybody
that wanted to be there and whenwe started talking about what
do you want kids to do, how doyou want them to behave, in the
hallway, every single teacher atthe table said we want them to
be quiet.
That was huge buy-in and thatwas kind of like our starting
point.
We're like, okay, we can makethat happen.
And with the matrix, then youhave to actually say the
(10:26):
behavior you're going to see,we're gonna see kids walking.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Everything needs to be said in the positive.
It's just like don't say don'trun down the hall, Say I like
the way you walk down the hallbecause the child's going to do
what you say.
So everything needs to be saidin the positive as to what you
want.
But really those expectedbehaviors and everybody being on
board with them is the only waythat you'll always get them
(10:51):
reinforced.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
And the more teachers you can include in helping you
develop a matrix, the better.
So we're gonna be talking a lotabout the matrix in our next
couple of episodes, but wewanted you to understand what a
matrix is.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
So the first.
So in our advice to gettingstarted, start out with three
big rules, at least that youwant across your building, that
every rule's gonna fall underthose.
Safe, responsible, respectfulare ours, but maybe you come up
with some other catchy ones, butthose are quick, easy and kids
know Is that safe, is thatresponsible, is that respectful?
(11:26):
Second advice is start thatmatrix.
I mean, I think sometimes whenpeople wanna do PBIS they just
get overwhelmed.
They think to the end, likeI've gotta do all this stuff and
Diane and I are here to takeyou through step by step.
It's not, you're not at the endyet.
That took us years.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Start simple and the matrix is your beginning and
really in a year's time, if youcan get your three to five rules
and your matrix and then onemore definitions of major and
minor behaviors so important youare off to a very good start.
And again, all of those thingsneed to be developed with your
staff.
So, definitions of major andminor behaviors, that's huge.
(12:09):
We did a big chart paperbecause some people think that
maybe bringing well back in theday.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I don't know now so much.
We like to say that back in theday, but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
This would have been a good 20 years ago or so.
Kids would be in trouble fornot bringing a pencil to class
or not having a pencil beingsent to the office.
Well, is that really a majormisbehavior?
Is that a need to?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
go to the office.
We think about that and, likeDiannaia, having taught a long
time ago, some teachers willkeep kids in the room for many
behaviors and then when theybring that behavior to the
office, it might be a minorbehavior, but they have had it,
so they want maximum punishment.
Well, as an administrator,that's not fair to you, because
(12:55):
you don't know what's led up tothat and you don't know, whereas
another teacher may just go.
You know, I don't have time forthis, I'm just even minor
behavior.
So it's really important to dothose major and minor behaviors
and everybody to be aware of it.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yes, yes, and so we're going to talk a lot more
about how you know what ourmajor and minors look like, and
how teachers develop it, how weput ours together.
So that will be in futureepisodes.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And really honestly, once that happened, teachers
were released.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And administrators.
I was relieved because now Ihad a guideline to follow too.
We had the matrix in place.
Everywhere you go in thebuilding, everyone knows, from
specials teachers to aides toadministrators, how students are
supposed to behave, and we evenmake our substitutes aware
because we want them followingour matrix as well.
(13:47):
So the matrix is just huge.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Matrix is huge.
Major and minors are huge and,like Diane said, getting those
three big rules and those threethings are the biggest thing you
can get going.
Now the other one that isimportant and if you work on it
that first year is the rewardsystem.
You need something in place foryour whole building, I mean,
(14:12):
because that's going to help allthose other things happen.
And don't get too overwhelmedwith that either.
I mean, we will talk to you alot of in-depth individual
behavior charts and rewards andthings like that that we've got.
But if you just overall startat what does that reward system
like?
If it comes from the office, ifit comes from the classroom,
(14:34):
what is it going to look like?
But again, even though and it'salso important we don't want to
take autonomy away fromteachers.
They want to do little moneysystems in their classrooms.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
That's all okay, teachers can have that autonomy
in their room.
Yeah, you bring up a good point, because the one thing that the
matrix or, I'm sorry, just thewhole framework, it's more
building wide.
It doesn't really get specificinto classrooms and in our
building teachers were afraid wewere going to come into the
(15:08):
classroom and tell them how todiscipline per se.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
So if they wanted to do that money banking system, we
were going to tell them we justhad the and that is not true.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Had this for the school, the matrix for the
school, but then we wantedteachers to also carry through
with be safe, be responsible,respectful and what does that
look like in my classroom?
And then developing that withthe students.
And yes, you have to have thatreward system or acknowledgement
system in place, and we'regoing to talk a lot about what
(15:37):
that looks like For us In aschool wide Look differently for
you.
Individually, and then itdoesn't have to be monetary.
I think a lot of schools thinkthat we have to have a lot of
monetary kinds of prizes orthings, but an acknowledgement
system.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Dain and I are very adamant about, not trinkets and
things like that.
If you, as a teacher, want todo that, more power to you.
I knew teachers who want to getrid of their McDonald's toys.
That's up to you, but we hereat Minerva Elementary always
like to have experiences, and sowe can talk things about that.
But it's just having yourpicture on Facebook or doing
(16:17):
things that are specialprivileges for you to do and
experiences and that's such adifferent type of reward system
Doesn't cost any money and a lotof times it's much more to them
than a little trinket orsomething like that.
So we really like to look atthat type of a reward system.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
So if you're listening and your school does
not have PBIS in place, you canstill put all of these things in
place in your own classroom.
You know you can come up and Iwould do this with your students
and make sure your studentshave buy-in Again.
You don't want to mandate thisto your students, but rather you
could brainstorm one day in aclass meeting what big rules
(16:59):
should we have in our classroomand then what does behavior look
like in our classroom?
And create a small matrix.
I think we had a kindergartenteacher last year create a small
matrix for her kindergartenclassroom.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So, and I think that's awesome, I had a teacher
talk to me about that.
This really wasn't part oftheir school.
She really wanted to start it.
New teachers coming out ofcollege trying to get that
behavioral system in their room,which might not be across the
board yet, but you know what?
Success is contagious.
So like if you start thislittle system in your classroom
(17:36):
and then your neighboringteacher looks over and goes hmm,
you know, I really like whatyou're doing and I take data on
it.
You know how many do not.
You know, don't have it in thebeginning.
How many times did you haveoffice referrals?
How many times did you?
And then start that and thensee what it's like towards your
Christmas or the end of the year.
But if you start doing that andthen your neighbor wants to
(17:57):
jump on board with that, thenanother neighbor, then you're
gonna have administratorslooking at you like, hmm, this
might be a thing we wanna do,building wide.
So don't be afraid to start itin your classroom, in your own
room, in your own room, cause itcan easily be done and your
students, kindergarten to 12thgrade, will like to be a part of
(18:17):
the management of theirclassroom.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
When students are a part of it, they have buy-in,
just like we said with teachers.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
You know when people are a part of it, and that's the
voice behind student councils.
You know all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Voice with a choice, voice with a choice and honoring
the genius within each person.
I love it.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I do, I absolutely do .
Well, diane, are we about atthe end of this podcast?
I think we are.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I just wanted to kind of you know, define what we're
talking about, in case you'renot really sure, because as we
move forward, we're going tohave lots of guests with us and
we're going to continue to talkabout the process, how we
develop certain things, and justgetting that input from the
staff.
I love hearing from the staffand their viewpoint.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
So that was a big thing we wanted to talk about
today, but I'm glad we took aminute.
Like you said, we called thiskind of a nuts and bolts.
Next week I hope you join usbecause we're going to have a
teacher come who was there rightin the beginning.
She was an RTI coach and shehelped with that beginning
framework and what it was likeputting those two buildings
together.
Next week's episode is called avoice with a choice.
(19:22):
We're excited even about thattitle, so I hope you come back
and you talk with us next time.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
My name is Diane Barrow and I'm Diane Ruff, and
we are super glad that youjoined us today.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
All right Journey with two PBIS Journey to Genius.
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