January 12, 2023 • 23 mins
To be successful in business, it's important to have a high EQ — that is, your emotional intelligence. But what about your writing EQ? To connect with your audience and write persuasively, you need to sharpen your writing skills. Join Erin Lebacqz and host Shari Simpson as they discuss some tips to help you improve your business writing EQ.
Guest: Erin Lebacqz is an International Educator: Teacher | Author | Speaker with High-Value Writing
Erin Lebacqz has been teaching writing for 25 years, both in the United States and internationally. Erin created the High-Value Writing program to help business writers develop more clarity and confidence in their writing. Erin's book and YouTube channel provide down-to-earth strategies and examples to help readers learn to write with clarity, confidence, and emotional intelligence.
Mentioned in the episode:
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinlebacqz/
- Website: High-Value Writing https://www.highvaluewriting.com/
- YouTube: Top 10 Writing Tips for Business Writers: https://youtu.be/QgNVT-SKSps
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
(upbeat music)
- Hey, and welcome to PCTY Talks.
I'm your host, Shari Simpson.
During our time together,
we'll stay close to the news and info
you need to succeed as an HR pro.
And together, we'll explore topics
around HR thought leadership, compliance,
and real life HR situationswe face every day.
(00:28):
On today's podcast, I havewith me, Erin Lebacqz.
She is an internationaleducator, teacher, author,
and speaker with "High-Value Writing".
So Erin, thanks for jumping on with me.
- Yeah, Shari, thanksso much for having me.
I'm happy to be here today.
- So I'm always fascinatedwhen I talk to authors
and how they started their career,
and like what got you into talking about,
(00:49):
you know, "High-Value Writing"?
- Yeah, well you know,I really was motivated
to write that book because of my students.
I've been teaching writingsince the late 90s,
always to, I did a littlebit of high school,
but after that it was mainly university
before I switched to teachingadults in businesses.
And along that route, Iwould start to observe,
(01:10):
"Oh, okay, the people who are confident
about their writing have alot more opportunity in life."
They can say yes to being on a committee.
They can apply for an internship.
They can help people who, helptheir direct reports grow,
because they have all these opportunities
that we find through when we'reable to write purposefully.
And so "High-Value Writing"is the intention behind that
(01:31):
is to help peoplerecognize that we can write
with intention and purposeand meet our goals.
Writing doesn't have tofeel like it controls us.
We can take charge.
And, you know, over the years,
one of the biggest issuesmy students and participants
have had is confidence in writing.
And so a lot of it is just around,
well how can we beindependent and in charge,
(01:52):
and we learn to know the rightwriting decisions to make
in any scenario.
And so that's what"High-Value Writing" is about,
is logically analyzing thesituation that we're in,
and making purposeful writingchoices to achieve our goals.
- I think that leads rightinto my next question.
You talk about writing EQ.
Explain that a little bit to me
(02:13):
as we dive into this topic today.
How do we think about writing EQ
and is it a muscle we can learn?
- You know, I think it is, Shari.
I think that's a good way to put it.
Kind of like how we canlearn emotional intelligence
in other areas of our life.
Any of us who are parents have worked
on emotional intelligenceabout how we react to our kids.
(02:33):
Any of us who are or have been supervisors
have learned those muscles
with our direct reports.
And of course, we've allalso learned to adapt
the way we behave when we'rearound supervisors or areas,
where we're trying tomeet some kind of a goal.
And so we can learn those same types
of skills in our writing.
And I think we just haveto kind of remember,
(02:55):
oh yeah, there's a human
who's gonna open this up and read it.
And when we're talking face to face,
it's really easy to rememberthat that human's there,
because they're right in frontof us and we see their face,
but when we write, it's stillthat same human opening it up.
And so that's why I'veencouraged people to realize,
and honestly, I didn't put this together
(03:16):
until about 15 years intomy career teaching writing.
But unless we arejournaling or taking notes,
we are pretty much neverwriting for ourselves.
We're almost always writing for others.
We are writing to inform them,to help them, to guide them,
to persuade them, to critiquethem, whatever it might be.
Our writing is almost neverused by our own selves,
(03:40):
which means we better bringsome emotional intelligence
into how we do our writing,
because we are using it for others
and to build relationshipsand trust with others.
And so, I encouragepeople to kind of develop
an utter focus in writing,
and look a little bit at whether we need
to self-manage as we write,you know, kind of control
our own instincts of maybe, for example,
(04:02):
how much detail we wanna give in an email,
let's say, and think,"Well, but my reader -
how much detail do they want?"
I need to start there.
And so it is a little bitof flipping the mindset
that it's not for me -it's for someone else.
So let me try my bestto get into their shoes
and perceive thismessage from their angle.
- When it comes tobuilding trust in writing,
(04:24):
that's something thatI've definitely grown
in my own career as an HR professional.
I'm sure that those are listening
are thinking through the same things.
You know, when I started my career off,
I had this mindset of Ihave to be very direct,
I have to get to the point,I have to ask what I want,
I don't put a lot of fluffinto my communication.
And I got some great coaching
from a supervisor along theway and the feedback was like,
(04:46):
"Hey, your communication is great.
It's detailed, but it's verydry and I don't feel like,
I'm not hearing you as a personcome out in your writing,
and I know you don't talk like that."
So why doesn't that show up in my writing?
How do we mold those?
How do we get to the pointwhere our personality
and the way that we speakshows up in our writing
(05:06):
that can be direct but is compassionate,
and like you said hasthis human approach to it?
- Yeah, I think we can workto be concise and nice,
you know, we can, writingis always a balancing act
and that's one of the ways,
where we need to be direct and clear,
but also human and supportive.
And I really appreciate your story
about how you started out, because that's,
(05:27):
I think what happens with most of us.
I think we have an idea in our minds
that there's one wayto sound professional -
whatever professional means,and it's been modeled to us.
We've read bureaucraticpapers, we've read textbooks,
we've been coached in school to write
in a dry, passive manner often.
(05:49):
And then we see it sometimes when we get
into the workforce too,this idea where people feel
that in order to feelsophisticated or worthy of respect,
we have to use thisbureaucratic dry writing
with a bunch of big vocab words.
But that is not utter focus, right?
That's not oriented to the reader -
it's just what all ofus being earnest, right?
(06:09):
When we start out.
We're like, well, I've seenwhat, quote, "professional" is,
and I'm gonna do it too.
But those are myths often, you know,
those are just exampleswhere we've learned,
we've tried to do our best in school,
we've tried to do ourbest in our applications
and develop that tone.
But when we really arewriting to people at work,
they need to use theinformation that we send them -
(06:30):
not just see it.
So we have to really kind of let go
of those worries and those habits,
and realize it's okay toshow me in my writing.
And so we can do that.
We can still be direct,because you're right,
everybody wants concise writing.
Readers are not looking formultiple paragraphs in an email
(06:50):
if they can avoid it, right?
So we do need to be concise,
but I think we can stay away a little bit
from over formalized language,
and we can, I always tellpeople it's all about the verbs,
where you can be conciseand also set a tone.
For example, I couldsound official and say,
"We request that you attend the seminar."
(07:13):
Or I could sound more human and say,
"We hope you'll join us for the seminar."
And request and attend werethe verbs in the first one
and you can hear how formal that sounds.
And it makes me kind of not wanna go
if someone requested that I attend,
am I gonna sit in the back andcheck off my name, you know?
But if someone says, "We hope you join,"
(07:34):
I'm kind of like, "Oh,they want Erin to come."
You know, I might evenget to do something.
And those, again, are verbs.
So as we write our direct,clear, concise messages,
we can then go back andsay, "Ooh, could I just swap
this verb out for something friendlier?"
I'd still be super concise,but that one word will set
a tone that's maybe morewelcoming or more casual
(07:56):
depending on our writing goals.
- Do you think that's a goodplace for someone to start?
If they're listening andthey're like, "Oh my gosh."
And I love that you used
the word "professional" in air quotes.
I know you guys can'tobviously see that listening,
but I was laughing becausethat's exactly how I felt,
like professional writinglooks a certain way
and it has words like request,and it's very directive.
(08:19):
Is there, you know, some tips as
or is that a good place to get started?
Just looking at the verbswhen you are tackling,
trying to increase your writing EQ?
- I do, I would say if wewanna get to really good
sentence level strategies toreally good ones are that,
to look at your verbs, becausethose are your opportunity
to set tone withoutmessing up your sentence
(08:40):
or making it longer, 'causewe're just swapping verbs
for a friendlier tone.
And the other opportunityis with who you use
as the who of your sentence.
Who and if listeners likegrammar, that's your subject.
If you're not a grammar person,
it's kind of like who is doingsomething in your sentence?
Who's your doer?
And that's anotheropportunity to put attention
(09:02):
where we want it and to putrespect where we want it.
So for example, if I were backto that idea of requesting
that somebody come to something,if I were inviting people,
I could say the name of the institution,
you know, maybe I'm gonna say like,
"Caring County requests yourpresence at this and that."
Now I've made my sentenceall about the county -
(09:24):
maybe that's what I want.
But what if I wanted my sentence
to be about the people coming?
I could say, "You are all welcome to come
to Caring County's session,"
and then I put you in the front that time.
So that's the other opportunity.
The verb is setting the tone
and who you make your sentence be the,
who's your main character of your sentence
shows who matters too.
(09:46):
So those are great ways tokind of purposefully think,
"Ooh, who am I gonna put in that,"
really important doer subject role to show
that they are being highlightedand I care about them.
And even with that example ofCaring County wants you there
versus you are welcome, wecan also see the first one
is a little top down and the second one
is a little bottom up.
(10:06):
So we get to flex again who matters.
And that's part of EQtoo - is putting people,
representing people in a waythat's respectful to them,
and shows that they're important.
- The examples you gave really highlight
I think how a company's culture can come
to life in their communications.
You know, we spend way more time in email
(10:27):
than any of us would like to admit.
And email is often everybodyelse's to-do list for you,
but we do need to grab richinformation from it often.
How have you coached leaders to think
about email differently,
think about it more as building community
with their words and lettingthat culture come to life
rather than just thisvery dry information?
(10:50):
- Well, I'm really glad you asked that,
because I've been thinkinga lot about the contribution
that communication makes to culture.
And in some ways,culture is communication.
I mean there aren't, what else is it?
Behavior, I guess.
But communication is a lot of it.
And sometimes, I've seen a team,
or a company, or a leadership group
(11:10):
spend a lot of money on cultural change,
bringing in change management,
culture experts doing a whole lot
of great things to improve their culture.
And yet, if the nextweek, one of those leaders
sends out an email thatsounds condescending,
it's all over, you know thatit wouldn't have worked.
And so the communicationis where culture manifests
(11:32):
or shows up, right?
It's where we see andfeel what is the culture.
And so, I think it's awonderful opportunity
to set culture every day.
In a recent leadershipdevelopment program,
some young managers, newmanagers asked me specifically
the same question you did -how can we build community
(11:54):
as an example for this great opportunity
we have as we write?
And we brainstormed a lotof great ways to do that.
You know, from kind of referring back
to what I had just said about
who is the star of yoursentence - that's a way too,
where if I'm a team lead andI'm writing a weekly update,
instead of saying, "Let'sdiscuss X, Y, and Z
(12:14):
at our next meeting," I couldsay, "Let's discuss X and Y,
which Shari brought up last week,
and then I wanna touchon Raul's concept for C."
And I could bring in, "You know,
this is not me with amillion great ideas -
it was Shari and Raulwho had these ideas."
I can even just stopusing words like I and my,
and use words like we andour and things like that.
(12:39):
And just again, kind of giveimport and attention to people
that we think might be feelinglonely or not included,
and try to talk more with thatutter focus about the team,
and try to take out that sort of top down
I speak a little bit.
And so we do have thatcommunity to really,
I'm sorry, that opportunityto boost our culture
(12:59):
and community through careful wording.
I also had mentioned as an example
if an email is condescending,
that's not setting a good culture.
Often, we accidentally write something
that puts the reader in aposition they don't wanna be in,
like takes their choice away,or sounds condescending,
or sounds like they didn't know something.
(13:20):
That's where we wanna be really careful
is what position we put people in
and making sure we leavethem with power and choice,
and don't dismiss them throughour sentences accidentally.
- Performance reviews aredefinitely what I'm thinking about
as you talk about howwe think about language.
You know, I'm sure we'veall been in that situation,
(13:41):
where we've read a performance review,
and we're like, "Are wetalking about the same person?
Is this me?
I had no idea."
And some of it could be accurate,
stuff you haven't heardfrom your supervisor,
but what if it is stuff that you've heard
and it was never articulated
in the same way that they wrote it down.
Is that they didn't tell youcorrectly and the situation is,
you know, more dire than you thought?
Or is it poor choice ofwording on their end,
(14:03):
because they were trying to be direct,
quote, "professional".
What coaching have you givenHR professionals and managers
in this space aroundperformance review writing?
- Yeah, that's a huge one.
And talk about somethingthat sets a tone, right?
Or sets a culture and sotherefore, a huge opportunity.
When I work with companieswho've got their 80 managers
(14:25):
practicing writing performance reviews,
we talk about, oh wow, wecould actually use this
in an actionable useful way -
to build culture and direct change.
But I think what I think thatdisconnect that you mentioned
between maybe what I thinkmy manager feels about me
versus what I read when I get my review,
(14:46):
usually the difference there
is that we have often been too abstract
when we give people advice.
And so, when we're not very tangible
and we say something like, "You know,
Erin needs to improve her communication,"
that, and if maybe someone had said to me,
"Hey, you're doing great,
but let's work on your communication.
(15:06):
You still need to improveyour communication a little."
I'm left wondering two things,which communication - emails,
DMs, you know, whatever it might be,
speaking on the phone, I don't know.
And I'm also left wondering, in what way?
Should I improve?
Do I need to be a better listener?
Do I need to be more clear?
Do my emails not have a main point?
(15:27):
Do I not make eye contact when I listen?
I have no idea.
And so, but it's reallyeasy to say something
that's accidentallyabstract, because of course,
we, as the writer, knowwhat we want them to change
about their communication, butwe're all pretty accustomed
to saying things that aresort of black and white
like communicate better.
Good or bad, right?
(15:48):
But we need to get tangible.
And so what we can dowith a performance review
is really ensure thatwe choose a verb well,
that sets the righttone, and is actionable.
Not something like, "Be better."
But clarify your pointin your email, Erin.
Not be better at communicating, Erin.
(16:08):
But be more, you know, weneed to say something tangible
in what situations, in what way,
always answering the questionhow when we write those.
And I think when we receivetangible, actionable feedback,
we feel a little bit more optimistic,
because we've been givensomething to work with
versus just kind of the idea
that we aren't doing well enough,
(16:29):
and we're stuck trying to figure out how.
- That is the worst place to be in.
When you get that very generic feedback,
you know, be X.
And you're like, "Okay,I would love to be X,
but what exactly is X?"
So those were reallygreat examples I think
that we can provide to ourmanagement team around,
you know, how you providethat next level of clarity.
(16:50):
Because the reality is ourmanagers know it, right?
They just need to get it on paper.
Have you found that by coachingmanagers that in this way
of communicating in performance reviews
that it's become less of a chore for them,
that they see it in a different way?
- I have, yes.
And I think even justtalking about it at all
gives the opportunity to realize how much,
(17:11):
how helpful these can be versus a chore.
But one of the waysI've tried to help folks
see it as less of a chore
is also by using a formula to start with.
Because exactly like you just said, Shari,
the manager knows the information,
but getting it on paper in a way
that's gonna be super clear,
and you know you're dealingwith all that stress
(17:31):
when you're writing it, right?
Like, "This is going downin posterity, oh my god."
And so I encourage peopleto write who plus what
plus the word "by", and then how.
So who, what, how, andyou use the word "by"
to connect that how on there.
So it could be like,Raul listens effectively
(17:54):
by making eye contact and paraphrasing -
something like that.
So the by is forcing meto say something tangible
and observable - thatalso helps us make sure
that they feel fair to somebodythat their evidence-based.
And then with that verb,it's that one I talked about
Raul listens or Raul makes eye contact -
(18:14):
verbs that show somethingvisible versus is.
Raul is a good listener -that doesn't help anybody.
And it also worries me when we use is,
because that can soundlike someone's opinion.
What if it was Raul isnot a good listener?
Now that sounds like anopinion that we don't like.
And so using a verb that's not is or was,
(18:36):
will help ensure that your writing
is evidence-based and feels fair.
And then that who, what, howformula helps kind of ensure,
just keep us honest,like are we putting in
actionable advice?
It has to come after the word "by".
And when people have that sort of formula
in mind as a basis, it's less stressful,
because at least we kind ofknow how to meet the goal,
(18:58):
and then we can always alter the sentences
a little bit afterwards.
- I feel like we could spend all day
with the tips and tricks you have
and all these little different things,
ways of thinking aboutwriting differently,
and they're not rocket science,
and they're not rocket science,
they're very, very practical.
And you've got this greatYouTube channel out there.
(19:18):
There is a ton of amazing videos.
I will make sure to putthe link in the show notes
to your YouTube channel, andyour book, and your website.
But there's one out therein particular called,
"The Top 10 Tips for Business Writers"
and I'd love, maybe as wewrap up our conversation,
for you to dive into some of those tips
and why they're so important.
- Yeah, sure.
Yeah, I was kind of excited tosort of bring things together
(19:41):
to one spot for people with that video.
And I'll tell you,folks, a lot of the tips,
and you can check it out on the channel,
but a lot of them have to do with adapting
to the situation and to your purpose.
So I'd like to focus on twosort of metaphors, I guess,
that I use to help me remember that.
One is the work of makingwriting intelligible
(20:05):
needs to be done by somebody.
I could write a sloppyemail, and I was in a hurry,
and I didn't put it in ahandy order for my reader,
and I just send it off.
Now my reader has to dothe work of figuring out
what I meant and what the order is.
I could have done that work myself.
So one tip is do the work,because somebody will.
(20:27):
And if we don't do the workand sort it out as writers,
we are actually makingthe reader do the work,
which is not reallyemotionally intelligent
or supportive, right?
Because we're the one whoknows about the topic.
It would be a lot easierfor us to do the work
of presenting things in an order
that's relevant for the reader,
in a tone that's effective for our goals
and the the situation.
(20:48):
And towards that end, I usethe metaphor of being a host.
If we write a document ora multi-paragraph email,
we are hosting someoneat our document or email.
When I host someone at my house,
you know when you have a party, you say,
"Hey, here's the restroom."
"Here's the drinks and snacks."
"Let me introduce you to somebody."
(21:08):
Well, when someone comes to our document,
they also need to know how to get around.
They don't need to know wherethe food and the bathroom are,
but they need to knowwhere the examples are,
where the data is, where the,
how one idea transitions to another.
So I try to keep in mind,
"Hey, I'm hosting somebody right now,"
that means I need to set this up in a way
that will be easy for them to navigate,
(21:30):
and that helps me a lot too.
So kind of broadly speaking,those are some of the big tips.
And then there are also a few
that are sort of sentence level
and real actionableand easy to start with.
For example, to beconcise - it doesn't say,
this part on here, I'll add in.
Lead your sentence withwho's doing something
(21:51):
and what they're doing.
Do not start your sentencewith it is or there are,
or other slow starts is on there.
When we start a sentence with"It is important to consider",
"I am writing to inform you","There are many reasons",
blah, blah, we are only delaying content
and delaying information and meaning
until maybe eight wordsinto that sentence,
(22:13):
which gives the reader theopportunity to get confused,
to maybe stop reading,because they're super busy.
It's always better to front load.
Don't bury the lead, putthe main point up top,
and even at the sentence level,
put the important informationtowards the beginning,
like who's doing somethingand what are they doing?
Because something like it is or there are
(22:33):
is not actually meaningful.
Those are just habits we've developed
usually from writing for school.
- I also find that women a lot will use
some of those filler words.
You know, I read something longago that talked about women
using the word "just".
I just wanna dot, dot, dot.
And I've worked reallyhard to pull that out
of my own writing, becauselike, just like you said,
(22:55):
let's get concise, let's get to the point.
But man, what great adviceyou have for our listeners.
I mean, we barely touch thesurface of the great content
you have on your YouTube channel.
So I highly recommend if you'relistening to check it out,
And Erin's book, "High-Value Writing".
So thanks for taking a few minutes
of your day to chat with me.
- Thanks so much for having me, Shari.
(23:15):
I had a great time talking to you.
Thanks, everybody.
- This podcast is broughtto you by Paylocity,
a leading HCM provider that frees you
from the task of today,so you can focus more
on the promise of tomorrow.
If you'd like to submit atopic or appear as a guest
on a future episode, email usat pctytalks@paylocity.com.
(23:37):
(upbeat music)
(upbeat music)
- Hey, and welcome to PCTY Talks.
I'm your host, Shari Simpson.
During our time together,
we'll stay close to the news and info
you need to succeed as an HR pro.
And together, we'll explore topics
around HR thought leadership, compliance,
and real life HR situationswe face every day.
(00:28):
On today's podcast, I havewith me, Erin Lebacqz.
She is an internationaleducator, teacher, author,
and speaker with "High-Value Writing".
So Erin, thanks for jumping on with me.
- Yeah, Shari, thanksso much for having me.
I'm happy to be here today.
- So I'm always fascinatedwhen I talk to authors
and how they started their career,
and like what got you into talking about,
(00:49):
you know, "High-Value Writing"?
- Yeah, well you know,I really was motivated
to write that book because of my students.
I've been teaching writingsince the late 90s,
always to, I did a littlebit of high school,
but after that it was mainly university
before I switched to teachingadults in businesses.
And along that route, Iwould start to observe,
(01:10):
"Oh, okay, the people who are confident
about their writing have alot more opportunity in life."
They can say yes to being on a committee.
They can apply for an internship.
They can help people who, helptheir direct reports grow,
because they have all these opportunities
that we find through when we'reable to write purposefully.
And so "High-Value Writing"is the intention behind that
(01:31):
is to help peoplerecognize that we can write
with intention and purposeand meet our goals.
Writing doesn't have tofeel like it controls us.
We can take charge.
And, you know, over the years,
one of the biggest issuesmy students and participants
have had is confidence in writing.
And so a lot of it is just around,
well how can we beindependent and in charge,
(01:52):
and we learn to know the rightwriting decisions to make
in any scenario.
And so that's what"High-Value Writing" is about,
is logically analyzing thesituation that we're in,
and making purposeful writingchoices to achieve our goals.
- I think that leads rightinto my next question.
You talk about writing EQ.
Explain that a little bit to me
(02:13):
as we dive into this topic today.
How do we think about writing EQ
and is it a muscle we can learn?
- You know, I think it is, Shari.
I think that's a good way to put it.
Kind of like how we canlearn emotional intelligence
in other areas of our life.
Any of us who are parents have worked
on emotional intelligenceabout how we react to our kids.
(02:33):
Any of us who are or have been supervisors
have learned those muscles
with our direct reports.
And of course, we've allalso learned to adapt
the way we behave when we'rearound supervisors or areas,
where we're trying tomeet some kind of a goal.
And so we can learn those same types
of skills in our writing.
And I think we just haveto kind of remember,
(02:55):
oh yeah, there's a human
who's gonna open this up and read it.
And when we're talking face to face,
it's really easy to rememberthat that human's there,
because they're right in frontof us and we see their face,
but when we write, it's stillthat same human opening it up.
And so that's why I'veencouraged people to realize,
and honestly, I didn't put this together
(03:16):
until about 15 years intomy career teaching writing.
But unless we arejournaling or taking notes,
we are pretty much neverwriting for ourselves.
We're almost always writing for others.
We are writing to inform them,to help them, to guide them,
to persuade them, to critiquethem, whatever it might be.
Our writing is almost neverused by our own selves,
(03:40):
which means we better bringsome emotional intelligence
into how we do our writing,
because we are using it for others
and to build relationshipsand trust with others.
And so, I encouragepeople to kind of develop
an utter focus in writing,
and look a little bit at whether we need
to self-manage as we write,you know, kind of control
our own instincts of maybe, for example,
(04:02):
how much detail we wanna give in an email,
let's say, and think,"Well, but my reader -
how much detail do they want?"
I need to start there.
And so it is a little bitof flipping the mindset
that it's not for me -it's for someone else.
So let me try my bestto get into their shoes
and perceive thismessage from their angle.
- When it comes tobuilding trust in writing,
(04:24):
that's something thatI've definitely grown
in my own career as an HR professional.
I'm sure that those are listening
are thinking through the same things.
You know, when I started my career off,
I had this mindset of Ihave to be very direct,
I have to get to the point,I have to ask what I want,
I don't put a lot of fluffinto my communication.
And I got some great coaching
from a supervisor along theway and the feedback was like,
(04:46):
"Hey, your communication is great.
It's detailed, but it's verydry and I don't feel like,
I'm not hearing you as a personcome out in your writing,
and I know you don't talk like that."
So why doesn't that show up in my writing?
How do we mold those?
How do we get to the pointwhere our personality
and the way that we speakshows up in our writing
(05:06):
that can be direct but is compassionate,
and like you said hasthis human approach to it?
- Yeah, I think we can workto be concise and nice,
you know, we can, writingis always a balancing act
and that's one of the ways,
where we need to be direct and clear,
but also human and supportive.
And I really appreciate your story
about how you started out, because that's,
(05:27):
I think what happens with most of us.
I think we have an idea in our minds
that there's one wayto sound professional -
whatever professional means,and it's been modeled to us.
We've read bureaucraticpapers, we've read textbooks,
we've been coached in school to write
in a dry, passive manner often.
(05:49):
And then we see it sometimes when we get
into the workforce too,this idea where people feel
that in order to feelsophisticated or worthy of respect,
we have to use thisbureaucratic dry writing
with a bunch of big vocab words.
But that is not utter focus, right?
That's not oriented to the reader -
it's just what all ofus being earnest, right?
(06:09):
When we start out.
We're like, well, I've seenwhat, quote, "professional" is,
and I'm gonna do it too.
But those are myths often, you know,
those are just exampleswhere we've learned,
we've tried to do our best in school,
we've tried to do ourbest in our applications
and develop that tone.
But when we really arewriting to people at work,
they need to use theinformation that we send them -
(06:30):
not just see it.
So we have to really kind of let go
of those worries and those habits,
and realize it's okay toshow me in my writing.
And so we can do that.
We can still be direct,because you're right,
everybody wants concise writing.
Readers are not looking formultiple paragraphs in an email
(06:50):
if they can avoid it, right?
So we do need to be concise,
but I think we can stay away a little bit
from over formalized language,
and we can, I always tellpeople it's all about the verbs,
where you can be conciseand also set a tone.
For example, I couldsound official and say,
"We request that you attend the seminar."
(07:13):
Or I could sound more human and say,
"We hope you'll join us for the seminar."
And request and attend werethe verbs in the first one
and you can hear how formal that sounds.
And it makes me kind of not wanna go
if someone requested that I attend,
am I gonna sit in the back andcheck off my name, you know?
But if someone says, "We hope you join,"
(07:34):
I'm kind of like, "Oh,they want Erin to come."
You know, I might evenget to do something.
And those, again, are verbs.
So as we write our direct,clear, concise messages,
we can then go back andsay, "Ooh, could I just swap
this verb out for something friendlier?"
I'd still be super concise,but that one word will set
a tone that's maybe morewelcoming or more casual
(07:56):
depending on our writing goals.
- Do you think that's a goodplace for someone to start?
If they're listening andthey're like, "Oh my gosh."
And I love that you used
the word "professional" in air quotes.
I know you guys can'tobviously see that listening,
but I was laughing becausethat's exactly how I felt,
like professional writinglooks a certain way
and it has words like request,and it's very directive.
(08:19):
Is there, you know, some tips as
or is that a good place to get started?
Just looking at the verbswhen you are tackling,
trying to increase your writing EQ?
- I do, I would say if wewanna get to really good
sentence level strategies toreally good ones are that,
to look at your verbs, becausethose are your opportunity
to set tone withoutmessing up your sentence
(08:40):
or making it longer, 'causewe're just swapping verbs
for a friendlier tone.
And the other opportunityis with who you use
as the who of your sentence.
Who and if listeners likegrammar, that's your subject.
If you're not a grammar person,
it's kind of like who is doingsomething in your sentence?
Who's your doer?
And that's anotheropportunity to put attention
(09:02):
where we want it and to putrespect where we want it.
So for example, if I were backto that idea of requesting
that somebody come to something,if I were inviting people,
I could say the name of the institution,
you know, maybe I'm gonna say like,
"Caring County requests yourpresence at this and that."
Now I've made my sentenceall about the county -
(09:24):
maybe that's what I want.
But what if I wanted my sentence
to be about the people coming?
I could say, "You are all welcome to come
to Caring County's session,"
and then I put you in the front that time.
So that's the other opportunity.
The verb is setting the tone
and who you make your sentence be the,
who's your main character of your sentence
shows who matters too.
(09:46):
So those are great ways tokind of purposefully think,
"Ooh, who am I gonna put in that,"
really important doer subject role to show
that they are being highlightedand I care about them.
And even with that example ofCaring County wants you there
versus you are welcome, wecan also see the first one
is a little top down and the second one
is a little bottom up.
(10:06):
So we get to flex again who matters.
And that's part of EQtoo - is putting people,
representing people in a waythat's respectful to them,
and shows that they're important.
- The examples you gave really highlight
I think how a company's culture can come
to life in their communications.
You know, we spend way more time in email
(10:27):
than any of us would like to admit.
And email is often everybodyelse's to-do list for you,
but we do need to grab richinformation from it often.
How have you coached leaders to think
about email differently,
think about it more as building community
with their words and lettingthat culture come to life
rather than just thisvery dry information?
(10:50):
- Well, I'm really glad you asked that,
because I've been thinkinga lot about the contribution
that communication makes to culture.
And in some ways,culture is communication.
I mean there aren't, what else is it?
Behavior, I guess.
But communication is a lot of it.
And sometimes, I've seen a team,
or a company, or a leadership group
(11:10):
spend a lot of money on cultural change,
bringing in change management,
culture experts doing a whole lot
of great things to improve their culture.
And yet, if the nextweek, one of those leaders
sends out an email thatsounds condescending,
it's all over, you know thatit wouldn't have worked.
And so the communicationis where culture manifests
(11:32):
or shows up, right?
It's where we see andfeel what is the culture.
And so, I think it's awonderful opportunity
to set culture every day.
In a recent leadershipdevelopment program,
some young managers, newmanagers asked me specifically
the same question you did -how can we build community
(11:54):
as an example for this great opportunity
we have as we write?
And we brainstormed a lotof great ways to do that.
You know, from kind of referring back
to what I had just said about
who is the star of yoursentence - that's a way too,
where if I'm a team lead andI'm writing a weekly update,
instead of saying, "Let'sdiscuss X, Y, and Z
(12:14):
at our next meeting," I couldsay, "Let's discuss X and Y,
which Shari brought up last week,
and then I wanna touchon Raul's concept for C."
And I could bring in, "You know,
this is not me with amillion great ideas -
it was Shari and Raulwho had these ideas."
I can even just stopusing words like I and my,
and use words like we andour and things like that.
(12:39):
And just again, kind of giveimport and attention to people
that we think might be feelinglonely or not included,
and try to talk more with thatutter focus about the team,
and try to take out that sort of top down
I speak a little bit.
And so we do have thatcommunity to really,
I'm sorry, that opportunityto boost our culture
(12:59):
and community through careful wording.
I also had mentioned as an example
if an email is condescending,
that's not setting a good culture.
Often, we accidentally write something
that puts the reader in aposition they don't wanna be in,
like takes their choice away,or sounds condescending,
or sounds like they didn't know something.
(13:20):
That's where we wanna be really careful
is what position we put people in
and making sure we leavethem with power and choice,
and don't dismiss them throughour sentences accidentally.
- Performance reviews aredefinitely what I'm thinking about
as you talk about howwe think about language.
You know, I'm sure we'veall been in that situation,
(13:41):
where we've read a performance review,
and we're like, "Are wetalking about the same person?
Is this me?
I had no idea."
And some of it could be accurate,
stuff you haven't heardfrom your supervisor,
but what if it is stuff that you've heard
and it was never articulated
in the same way that they wrote it down.
Is that they didn't tell youcorrectly and the situation is,
you know, more dire than you thought?
Or is it poor choice ofwording on their end,
(14:03):
because they were trying to be direct,
quote, "professional".
What coaching have you givenHR professionals and managers
in this space aroundperformance review writing?
- Yeah, that's a huge one.
And talk about somethingthat sets a tone, right?
Or sets a culture and sotherefore, a huge opportunity.
When I work with companieswho've got their 80 managers
(14:25):
practicing writing performance reviews,
we talk about, oh wow, wecould actually use this
in an actionable useful way -
to build culture and direct change.
But I think what I think thatdisconnect that you mentioned
between maybe what I thinkmy manager feels about me
versus what I read when I get my review,
(14:46):
usually the difference there
is that we have often been too abstract
when we give people advice.
And so, when we're not very tangible
and we say something like, "You know,
Erin needs to improve her communication,"
that, and if maybe someone had said to me,
"Hey, you're doing great,
but let's work on your communication.
(15:06):
You still need to improveyour communication a little."
I'm left wondering two things,which communication - emails,
DMs, you know, whatever it might be,
speaking on the phone, I don't know.
And I'm also left wondering, in what way?
Should I improve?
Do I need to be a better listener?
Do I need to be more clear?
Do my emails not have a main point?
(15:27):
Do I not make eye contact when I listen?
I have no idea.
And so, but it's reallyeasy to say something
that's accidentallyabstract, because of course,
we, as the writer, knowwhat we want them to change
about their communication, butwe're all pretty accustomed
to saying things that aresort of black and white
like communicate better.
Good or bad, right?
(15:48):
But we need to get tangible.
And so what we can dowith a performance review
is really ensure thatwe choose a verb well,
that sets the righttone, and is actionable.
Not something like, "Be better."
But clarify your pointin your email, Erin.
Not be better at communicating, Erin.
(16:08):
But be more, you know, weneed to say something tangible
in what situations, in what way,
always answering the questionhow when we write those.
And I think when we receivetangible, actionable feedback,
we feel a little bit more optimistic,
because we've been givensomething to work with
versus just kind of the idea
that we aren't doing well enough,
(16:29):
and we're stuck trying to figure out how.
- That is the worst place to be in.
When you get that very generic feedback,
you know, be X.
And you're like, "Okay,I would love to be X,
but what exactly is X?"
So those were reallygreat examples I think
that we can provide to ourmanagement team around,
you know, how you providethat next level of clarity.
(16:50):
Because the reality is ourmanagers know it, right?
They just need to get it on paper.
Have you found that by coachingmanagers that in this way
of communicating in performance reviews
that it's become less of a chore for them,
that they see it in a different way?
- I have, yes.
And I think even justtalking about it at all
gives the opportunity to realize how much,
(17:11):
how helpful these can be versus a chore.
But one of the waysI've tried to help folks
see it as less of a chore
is also by using a formula to start with.
Because exactly like you just said, Shari,
the manager knows the information,
but getting it on paper in a way
that's gonna be super clear,
and you know you're dealingwith all that stress
(17:31):
when you're writing it, right?
Like, "This is going downin posterity, oh my god."
And so I encourage peopleto write who plus what
plus the word "by", and then how.
So who, what, how, andyou use the word "by"
to connect that how on there.
So it could be like,Raul listens effectively
(17:54):
by making eye contact and paraphrasing -
something like that.
So the by is forcing meto say something tangible
and observable - thatalso helps us make sure
that they feel fair to somebodythat their evidence-based.
And then with that verb,it's that one I talked about
Raul listens or Raul makes eye contact -
(18:14):
verbs that show somethingvisible versus is.
Raul is a good listener -that doesn't help anybody.
And it also worries me when we use is,
because that can soundlike someone's opinion.
What if it was Raul isnot a good listener?
Now that sounds like anopinion that we don't like.
And so using a verb that's not is or was,
(18:36):
will help ensure that your writing
is evidence-based and feels fair.
And then that who, what, howformula helps kind of ensure,
just keep us honest,like are we putting in
actionable advice?
It has to come after the word "by".
And when people have that sort of formula
in mind as a basis, it's less stressful,
because at least we kind ofknow how to meet the goal,
(18:58):
and then we can always alter the sentences
a little bit afterwards.
- I feel like we could spend all day
with the tips and tricks you have
and all these little different things,
ways of thinking aboutwriting differently,
and they're not rocket science,
and they're not rocket science,
they're very, very practical.
And you've got this greatYouTube channel out there.
(19:18):
There is a ton of amazing videos.
I will make sure to putthe link in the show notes
to your YouTube channel, andyour book, and your website.
But there's one out therein particular called,
"The Top 10 Tips for Business Writers"
and I'd love, maybe as wewrap up our conversation,
for you to dive into some of those tips
and why they're so important.
- Yeah, sure.
Yeah, I was kind of excited tosort of bring things together
(19:41):
to one spot for people with that video.
And I'll tell you,folks, a lot of the tips,
and you can check it out on the channel,
but a lot of them have to do with adapting
to the situation and to your purpose.
So I'd like to focus on twosort of metaphors, I guess,
that I use to help me remember that.
One is the work of makingwriting intelligible
(20:05):
needs to be done by somebody.
I could write a sloppyemail, and I was in a hurry,
and I didn't put it in ahandy order for my reader,
and I just send it off.
Now my reader has to dothe work of figuring out
what I meant and what the order is.
I could have done that work myself.
So one tip is do the work,because somebody will.
(20:27):
And if we don't do the workand sort it out as writers,
we are actually makingthe reader do the work,
which is not reallyemotionally intelligent
or supportive, right?
Because we're the one whoknows about the topic.
It would be a lot easierfor us to do the work
of presenting things in an order
that's relevant for the reader,
in a tone that's effective for our goals
and the the situation.
(20:48):
And towards that end, I usethe metaphor of being a host.
If we write a document ora multi-paragraph email,
we are hosting someoneat our document or email.
When I host someone at my house,
you know when you have a party, you say,
"Hey, here's the restroom."
"Here's the drinks and snacks."
"Let me introduce you to somebody."
(21:08):
Well, when someone comes to our document,
they also need to know how to get around.
They don't need to know wherethe food and the bathroom are,
but they need to knowwhere the examples are,
where the data is, where the,
how one idea transitions to another.
So I try to keep in mind,
"Hey, I'm hosting somebody right now,"
that means I need to set this up in a way
that will be easy for them to navigate,
(21:30):
and that helps me a lot too.
So kind of broadly speaking,those are some of the big tips.
And then there are also a few
that are sort of sentence level
and real actionableand easy to start with.
For example, to beconcise - it doesn't say,
this part on here, I'll add in.
Lead your sentence withwho's doing something
(21:51):
and what they're doing.
Do not start your sentencewith it is or there are,
or other slow starts is on there.
When we start a sentence with"It is important to consider",
"I am writing to inform you","There are many reasons",
blah, blah, we are only delaying content
and delaying information and meaning
until maybe eight wordsinto that sentence,
(22:13):
which gives the reader theopportunity to get confused,
to maybe stop reading,because they're super busy.
It's always better to front load.
Don't bury the lead, putthe main point up top,
and even at the sentence level,
put the important informationtowards the beginning,
like who's doing somethingand what are they doing?
Because something like it is or there are
(22:33):
is not actually meaningful.
Those are just habits we've developed
usually from writing for school.
- I also find that women a lot will use
some of those filler words.
You know, I read something longago that talked about women
using the word "just".
I just wanna dot, dot, dot.
And I've worked reallyhard to pull that out
of my own writing, becauselike, just like you said,
(22:55):
let's get concise, let's get to the point.
But man, what great adviceyou have for our listeners.
I mean, we barely touch thesurface of the great content
you have on your YouTube channel.
So I highly recommend if you'relistening to check it out,
And Erin's book, "High-Value Writing".
So thanks for taking a few minutes
of your day to chat with me.
- Thanks so much for having me, Shari.
(23:15):
I had a great time talking to you.
Thanks, everybody.
- This podcast is broughtto you by Paylocity,
a leading HCM provider that frees you
from the task of today,so you can focus more
on the promise of tomorrow.
If you'd like to submit atopic or appear as a guest
on a future episode, email usat pctytalks@paylocity.com.
(23:37):
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