January 26, 2023 • 18 mins
Layoffs are never easy, and it’s especially difficult when it comes to supporting employees who may be affected. Unfortunately, in today’s business climate, layoffs often become necessary for various reasons. While the decision is always hard on those involved, there are some strategies and approaches you can take as a manager or part of human resources that will help both those being laid off feel supported during this time, as well as alleviate stress from others in your department or organization.
Join host Shari Simpson and guest Kate Grimaldi as they explore some tips for helping employees through layoffs with compassion and care so that everyone can emerge from the experience feeling heard and supported.
Guest: Kate Grimaldi, Senior Director of Enterprise Talent Strategy at Paylocity
Kate is a seasoned HR professional with over a decade of experience in various industries. Starting in 2017 at Paylocity, Kate made an impact quickly, rising through the ranks and propelling company HR initiatives forward. Today, she lends her skills to multiple projects, including speaking at local and national conferences, working closely with the C-Suite on HR and business alignment, updating the company of more than 5,000 employees with important announcements weekly, and cultivating an inclusive culture that supports the modern workforce.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
(upbeat music)
- Hey, and welcome to PCTY Talks.
I'm your host, Shari Simpson.
During our time together, we'll stay close
to the news and info youneed to succeed as an HR pro.
And together,
we'll explore topics aroundHR thought leadership,
compliance, and real life HRsituations we face every day.
(00:25):
(upbeat music)
Joining me on the podcasttoday is Kate Grimaldi.
She is our Senior Directorof Enterprise People Strategy
here at Paylocity
and a familiar voice forthose who are listening.
We're glad to have herback on the podcast today.
- Thanks for having me,Shari, love being back.
- So I wanna talk about today, layoffs,
(00:46):
and I know that I'm laughing,but that's not a funny topic
but it's something that we in HR,
I feel like are inundatedand even more so having gone
through the last two and ahalf years with the pandemic.
- Yeah, absolutely.
Now more than ever, we'reseeing, you know, whether
maybe it's not our own companies
but we're seeing our colleagues
we're seeing our friends,we're seeing acquaintances,
(01:07):
people in the industryeither talking about layoffs,
being laid off, tryingto connect other people.
It's a very hot topic right now
and a very stressful one at that.
- My brother was recentlylaid off and you know
it's interesting, he'smuch younger in his career
and we were talking aboutthe conversation that was had
with him and you know, hewasn't offered severance,
(01:29):
he wasn't really givena good exit strategy.
In fact, he was told during the discussion
that there was potentiallyanother role available
with him in the org and thatwas actually not the case.
So he got wrong informationduring that conversation.
And just to see him go
through that amount of stressand what am I gonna do?
And you know, all the otherlike tactical questions, right?
(01:51):
Like am I getting severanced?
Is my PTO getting paid out?
How am I going to messagethis to other people?
You know, there was a big concern
that if he found a job before, you know
his technical end date,
he's like, did I, does that mean I quit?
Does it go on my record?
Like that's a lot for somebody to digest.
- Yeah, it's also confusing.
I hate to hear thatpeople don't understand
what's happening.
(02:12):
They don't understand eitherthe benefits available
or not available to them.
Sometimes it's even confusingas to you pointed out
what is my last day, what does that mean?
What do I do with my stuff?
Can I tell my nextemployer I was laid off?
What happens when somebodyasks me about my resume,
what do I say?
All of these things thatalmost feel like education
(02:34):
that isn't there.
It's tough, it's tough to hear
and it's tough to watch people
especially, you know, I'man avid LinkedIn user.
People are always postingabout layoffs and you know
the things I scroll past,the larger comments,
the things that I getstuck on where people are
asking the community for help.
Hey, I don't know what these things mean.
I don't know what I'm supposed to say.
(02:55):
Or I haven't had to lookfor a job in 12 years.
I was really happy at mycompany, what do I do?
The job landscape has changed and it's,
it's a lot to take in.
- How do we support eachother during this time?
You know, I think, andwhat I mean by each other
I mean each other inHR but also our peers.
You know, just people thatwe're interacting with
(03:16):
in our everyday life becausewe do have a little bit
of a peek behind the curtainto give them some advice.
- Yeah, you know
I actually had a networkingconversation yesterday morning
with someone in the HR industry.
She was referred to methrough a mutual friend
and I wasn't exactly sure what she needed
made the time to sit down
with her and she was veryhonest from the beginning, Hey
(03:37):
this is what was happeningwith the company,
I was laid off.
I'm looking for my next opportunity.
But what I really wanna talk
to you about today is your HR journey.
I wanna learn a little bitmore about what you did.
Take some, you know, take some feedback.
And, we kind of gotthrough it and I looked
at her resume, she asked fortips on her LinkedIn profile
and I actually ended up connecting her
with another colleague for asimilar but different purpose.
(04:00):
And you know, for me, I guess when I think
about helping other people,it's things like that.
Making the time to spend30 minutes to give someone
some insight, makingthe time to connect them
with someone else.
You know, I love whenI see people commenting
on LinkedIn like, hey,commenting for reach or you know
I will tag people in posts thatare hiring a specific people
that I know have saidI'm looking for a job.
(04:22):
I think just remindingpeople that just because like
I'm in a situation whereI'm not being laid off,
I don't have a concern for my job.
Like I can give, even ifI can only give my time
sometimes that time is actually more than
you know, more than whatanybody could ask for
- And listening, right.
During that time, I like that you shared
(04:43):
about that conversationyou had because it was,
she came to you to seek some information
but I suspect you walkedaway with something,
some knowledge there too, right?
Listening to the thingsthat she was considering.
- It was interesting whereI, what I walked away with
that I hadn't anticipatedwas learning more
about the difficultyof being in a position
(05:03):
and in a employmentlandscape where we hear
about how many layoffs are happening,
we also hear about how manyjobs are available and how
there's not enough talentfor all the jobs available.
What I walked away withwas the idea of like
that's gotta be reallyconfusing for someone like her.
She's got great skills,she has a great background.
(05:24):
There's really nothingabout her that I could find
that I would say Iwouldn't hire her if I had
had a role open, I would'vea hundred percent said,
hey we should actuallyconsider her for this role.
And so I walked away thinking, wow
it's probably really confusing'cause all you hear in the
news is how there's more jobs available
than there are talent.
And in the same breath,this company just laid
(05:44):
off 10% of its workforce,20%, 15,000 people here.
And it's hard to wrap your mind
around what you're supposed todo with all that information
especially how that might impact you.
So yeah, I definitely learned something.
And I think too, I alwaystake away little nuggets
around experience and communication.
So, you know, one of the things
I took away from her was, all right,
if I ever am in thatposition where I need to
(06:06):
have a tough conversationand I need to lay someone off
one of the things I need tobe clear about, it's like
what does this mean foryou getting another job?
Because that is the first thingsomebody's thinking about.
So it was a good, I hadn'texpected to learn that
so it was definitely helpful.
- Do you think with all theselayoffs that are happening
you know, and you mentioned a few of them
and I feel like every time I jump online
(06:27):
it's another tech companylaying off, you know
tens of thousands of people.
Do you think that's changingpeople's feels about work?
- I think it's changing people'sfeels about their employer.
And the reason why Isay employer over work
is people feel the same way about work.
Most people want to have a job that is,
(06:47):
that brings them joy,that they find value in
that they're compensatedwhat they believe they
should be compensated for,
and that they don't mindgoing to work every day.
You know that they enjoy it,
they find things about it that they like.
I think the layoffs is, it's really
I think causing a bridge in trust.
I was talking to someonerecently who was struggling
with someone on their team and they said
(07:07):
this person keeps mentioningtrust, trust is an issue.
And she said, I'm not surewhat, where she's getting that,
what she's feeling it from.
I can't, I've asked her,she can't pinpoint it.
I think that's a great example.
I think it's changing how people feel
about their employers in terms of
you tell me that you'renot going to do layoffs.
How do I actually know that?
(07:28):
How do I know that I have job security?
And I think it's changingthe way people look
at what job security actually means
and then what kind of jobeither are you willing to take
what kind of job you know,do you feel valued in?
I think there's alsochanging the way people look
at their next step.
Maybe their next step isn't as, it doesn't
(07:50):
need to be as complicatedas they originally thought.
For some people now have reached out to me
they've said, hey, my nextstep is I need to make X amount
of money to support my family and I'm okay
if that's a step back, ifthat's not a leadership role
if it's in a differentindustry, et cetera.
- Which brings up the point
of how could we capitalizeon all these layoffs?
And maybe that's a terriblething to say, but I think
(08:11):
that if we're thinking strategicallyabout our organizations
and we know that there'sthis talent pool out there
how are we changing theway we think about work?
You know, we've had a lot
of conversations around skills, right?
Can we think differentlyabout people who are
in this space and theskills that they bring
to the table that might not bethe exact job, like you said
(08:32):
that they've had before or in the past.
- I think one of the ways we capitalize
on that is you go back and you look
at your own talent strategyand you say, you know
what am I doing to preventhaving to lay anybody
off at my company?
I know how bad that feels.
So what's a preventativemeasure I can take?
Can I do a skills inventory?
Is there a job that'sopen that I'm holding
onto because I'm soafraid that it's going to
I'm not gonna be able to fill it
(08:53):
or saving it just in case.
Is there an opportunity tolook at that and say, hey,
can a couple people whoalready work here actually
do that job and can I usethat budget somewhere else?
Or you know, is there aproject I can say no to?
And by saying no to it
that actually means thatI'm, I'm not at, you know,
I don't need to do anythingdifferent with my headcount.
(09:15):
I think when people look atthe word capitalize, right
their immediate, when yousaid the word capitalized
my immediately thought went
to money and profit and all of that.
I think we miss out sometimes
on another definition ofcapitalize, which is, you know
how can we benefit, right?
How do we benefit from layoffs?
Well, to me it's the sameway I benefited from leaders
(09:36):
in my past that I haven'tnecessarily always
found the most valuable,
which is I can always learnsomething from a leader
even if I don't like their style.
We can capitalize on layoffs even
if that doesn't mean wecan hire all the people
they laid off.
We capitalize by benefiting onhow, what was their strategy.
You know we hear about inthe news how some people just
get mass emailed, hundredsof people mass email
(10:00):
bye today's your last day.
Well, to me, I capitalize onthat by saying note to self,
don't mass email all thepeople that you wanna lay off.
Right, you think it's simple.
You think you've probablyalready known that.
I think that, you know, forme, I also think about how
do we capitalize on itwith our leaders in terms
of teaching them aboutmore, maybe I'm trying to,
(10:22):
I'm losing the word, likestrategic ways of dealing
with their issues andtheir headcount and maybe
just providing, to yourpoint earlier about listening
just spending more time.
I think another benefit atleast for me is, you know
whether it's listening orreading the LinkedIn posts,
it's really helpful becauseit helps me coordinate
(10:42):
our talent strategy to bemore robust and preventative.
Because, you know, I havebeen at companies where
I've had to lay off a lot of people.
You know, I will never saythat it was worse than actually
being the person laid off,
but it's not enjoyableand I don't recommend it.
- And having thoseconversations with leaders
about all the possibilitiesI think is really important
(11:02):
for us to lead in HR.
Because sometimes I thinkwe go to, you know what
it's gotta be headcount, right?
We gotta cut headcount.
There are other thingsavailable to us like right
maybe we decide, you know what
we're gonna stop matching 401k.
And the the headache thatyou're gonna experience
from that conversationwith your employees will
be way less than the experienceyou're gonna have by saying
(11:24):
we're gonna lay off evenif it's 10 people, right?
Like there is a component of transparency
though when it comes to layoffs.
Like you mentioned, likedon't send an email,
don't send a meme.
Don't do a, everybodyjump on the Zoom call
and like you just fire everybody that way.
Like there's gotta bethat compassion to it.
But it does open upyour opportunity to have
(11:45):
more strategic conversationswith your business
leaders about the business, right?
About making money and how that affects
your talent strategy.
- Yeah, absolutely.
It's interesting when you said a lot
of times when people go to saving money
their immediate thought is cut heads,
cut head count and you know, I agree.
(12:05):
I mean I think there's themore severe ways to save money.
Like you said, stop matching401k, you don't do raises.
I also think there's things
like look at your traveland expense budget.
You know, are therethings that, you know what
yes in the pandemiceveryone went to virtual
but are there things you'relike, hey, you know what
we're not actually gonnahave that meeting live
(12:26):
cause it's gonna save X amount of dollars
and it's gonna allow us tosave those two headcount.
I would guess that ifyou polled your employees
and you said, do you eitherwanna have this meeting
or do you want two ofyour friends to be let go?
My guess is they're gonna say, I would,
I'm okay with cancelingthe meeting if that means
that two of my friendsget to keep their jobs.
I think when you thinkabout things like that
from a different perspective,asking your employees
(12:48):
would you rather nobody get araise or would you rather half
of you don't show up at work tomorrow?
I think you're gonna see theend of the day people are more,
most people are morefocused on the greater good.
Like, I want a long lasting company.
I want the person next to meto still be there tomorrow.
If I have to forego something extra
that I wasn't planning onanyway, I'm okay with that.
(13:09):
So there's quite a bitof opportunity out there
to capitalize on thethings that we're seeing
in the market that we don't love.
And then you call a spade a spade,
there's also really great talent out there
that unfortunately theircompanies couldn't keep them.
Go scoop those people up.
I mean, interview the heck out
of as many people as you can find.
(13:30):
You'd be surprised what kind
of great talent just happened to be
in the department that happened
to no longer be needed at that company.
- As I wrap up ourconversation, how do you
or how have you supportedyour fellow coworkers
in your space, not atyour, at your location
but I mean the, therelationships that you've built
(13:51):
with other HR practitioners
as they're going throughthese layoff scenarios.
Because it can be, it can beheartbreaking for them, right?
If you've developed relationships
with some employees and you value them
and now you're the onedelivering the message
or supporting the delivery of the message
which I know you've been in that scenario
what advice do you have for them?
- Yeah, I mean what I'vetold people in the past is
(14:14):
I think there's a couple things.
One is you gotta save space for yourself.
So, and I don't mean that to be selfish
but it's gonna be toughto have a conversation
like that with someone.
You have to be in theright head space for it.
You can't be completely stressed out.
People can read that.
I am, I know you all can't see my face
but I am one who's told ona regular basis that you
know exactly what I'm thinkingbased on the look on my face.
(14:35):
If I'm gonna go lay someoneoff, I'm gonna be very
very focused and givemyself that space 'cause I
want to go in there very composed.
And the other thing Ialways remind people too
is you might be, you might besorry that this is happening
but in the moment tellingsomeone, oh I'm so sorry.
Most people we say sorryfor ourselves, we don't
(14:57):
actually say, sorry, doesn'thelp the other person.
It helps you, you know
feel better about whatever's happened.
Telling someone that you're
you're getting rid of their position
and that you're essentiallyupending their life,
sorry, isn't actually gonna cut it.
The better thing is come with resources,
come with plans, be very clear.
(15:18):
And the last thing is givepeople time to process
not in the moment and say
I'm not gonna go over everysingle detail with you.
Here are the high level things.
I'm gonna give this information to you.
I'm gonna set up time for us
in a couple days for you tocome back with questions.
I want you to come back with questions.
I want you to think about it.
I want you to think about whatelse you might wanna know.
(15:40):
Have answers, come withresources, have the information.
Give people time to process.
Especially people who youknow you're blindsiding them
nobody processes in the moment.
You have no idea what's goingon in their personal life.
Don't assume that they have somebody else
at home to lean on
whether it is for financialor emotional support.
Give 'em that space andhave resources ready.
(16:04):
The worst thing you can do
in my opinion as an employer is to lay off
a bunch of people in your workforce
and give them zero resourcesfor any of those things.
And I'm not talking just severanceand benefits, I'm talking
about job placement, resumewriting, emotional support.
It's to basically just sayyou meant absolutely nothing.
'cause that leads to the trust issues
we talked about before.
(16:26):
- Yeah, I couldn't agreemore about, you know, don't
make the assumptions and don'tleave them stranded right.
If you get anything from this episode
those are the two things Iwould say walk away with.
You know, and, and like you said
resources don'tnecessarily mean severance.
You might not be
in a situation where that'spart of the, you know
exit strategy that you guyshave during the layoff.
And so what are the thingsyou can provide and some
(16:48):
of the basics, like how do Italk about this going forward?
You know, the coachingI gave my brother is
you say you were laid off likeit wasn't your fault, right?
It's simple, but sometimesit's not as easy as that.
You know, if there's only a couple of you
or like why does your particularposition get eliminated?
So I really appreciate that.
I think there's a lotfor us to think about
(17:08):
the humanity when it comes to this
and just really listeningand supporting each other.
- Yeah, I think the lastthing I would leave you
with Shari too is you said your brother
made me think of, you know
my cousin's actually been laid off two
or three times in his careerand the last conversation him
and I had is, how do I say that
I've been laid off multiple times
(17:28):
and people not connect it tome like I did something wrong?
And I said, you know
that's where you comewith the company profile.
That's where you come with what's going
on with the companyand you have the facts.
And the only thing Iwould leave people with
is if that is you andyou're listening to this
like I know it's hard,don't take it personally.
(17:48):
Like don't own that
as something that becomes apart of you or your identity.
It's something that happenedto you and you know what?
Like you will get past it
and you will find a way andyou have to own it, you know?
And it's okay to own it withfacts and it's okay to own it
with confidence that you will overcome it.
- Such wise words.Kate, thank you so much.
- Thanks for having me, Shari.
(18:10):
- This podcast is broughtto you by Paylocity
a leading HCM provider thatfrees you from the task
of today so you can focus moreon the promise of tomorrow.
If you'd like to submit atopic or appear as a guest
on a future episode, email usat PCTYtalks@paylocity.com.
(upbeat music)
- Hey, and welcome to PCTY Talks.
I'm your host, Shari Simpson.
During our time together, we'll stay close
to the news and info youneed to succeed as an HR pro.
And together,
we'll explore topics aroundHR thought leadership,
compliance, and real life HRsituations we face every day.
(00:25):
(upbeat music)
Joining me on the podcasttoday is Kate Grimaldi.
She is our Senior Directorof Enterprise People Strategy
here at Paylocity
and a familiar voice forthose who are listening.
We're glad to have herback on the podcast today.
- Thanks for having me,Shari, love being back.
- So I wanna talk about today, layoffs,
(00:46):
and I know that I'm laughing,but that's not a funny topic
but it's something that we in HR,
I feel like are inundatedand even more so having gone
through the last two and ahalf years with the pandemic.
- Yeah, absolutely.
Now more than ever, we'reseeing, you know, whether
maybe it's not our own companies
but we're seeing our colleagues
we're seeing our friends,we're seeing acquaintances,
(01:07):
people in the industryeither talking about layoffs,
being laid off, tryingto connect other people.
It's a very hot topic right now
and a very stressful one at that.
- My brother was recentlylaid off and you know
it's interesting, he'smuch younger in his career
and we were talking aboutthe conversation that was had
with him and you know, hewasn't offered severance,
(01:29):
he wasn't really givena good exit strategy.
In fact, he was told during the discussion
that there was potentiallyanother role available
with him in the org and thatwas actually not the case.
So he got wrong informationduring that conversation.
And just to see him go
through that amount of stressand what am I gonna do?
And you know, all the otherlike tactical questions, right?
(01:51):
Like am I getting severanced?
Is my PTO getting paid out?
How am I going to messagethis to other people?
You know, there was a big concern
that if he found a job before, you know
his technical end date,
he's like, did I, does that mean I quit?
Does it go on my record?
Like that's a lot for somebody to digest.
- Yeah, it's also confusing.
I hate to hear thatpeople don't understand
what's happening.
(02:12):
They don't understand eitherthe benefits available
or not available to them.
Sometimes it's even confusingas to you pointed out
what is my last day, what does that mean?
What do I do with my stuff?
Can I tell my nextemployer I was laid off?
What happens when somebodyasks me about my resume,
what do I say?
All of these things thatalmost feel like education
(02:34):
that isn't there.
It's tough, it's tough to hear
and it's tough to watch people
especially, you know, I'man avid LinkedIn user.
People are always postingabout layoffs and you know
the things I scroll past,the larger comments,
the things that I getstuck on where people are
asking the community for help.
Hey, I don't know what these things mean.
I don't know what I'm supposed to say.
(02:55):
Or I haven't had to lookfor a job in 12 years.
I was really happy at mycompany, what do I do?
The job landscape has changed and it's,
it's a lot to take in.
- How do we support eachother during this time?
You know, I think, andwhat I mean by each other
I mean each other inHR but also our peers.
You know, just people thatwe're interacting with
(03:16):
in our everyday life becausewe do have a little bit
of a peek behind the curtainto give them some advice.
- Yeah, you know
I actually had a networkingconversation yesterday morning
with someone in the HR industry.
She was referred to methrough a mutual friend
and I wasn't exactly sure what she needed
made the time to sit down
with her and she was veryhonest from the beginning, Hey
(03:37):
this is what was happeningwith the company,
I was laid off.
I'm looking for my next opportunity.
But what I really wanna talk
to you about today is your HR journey.
I wanna learn a little bitmore about what you did.
Take some, you know, take some feedback.
And, we kind of gotthrough it and I looked
at her resume, she asked fortips on her LinkedIn profile
and I actually ended up connecting her
with another colleague for asimilar but different purpose.
(04:00):
And you know, for me, I guess when I think
about helping other people,it's things like that.
Making the time to spend30 minutes to give someone
some insight, makingthe time to connect them
with someone else.
You know, I love whenI see people commenting
on LinkedIn like, hey,commenting for reach or you know
I will tag people in posts thatare hiring a specific people
that I know have saidI'm looking for a job.
(04:22):
I think just remindingpeople that just because like
I'm in a situation whereI'm not being laid off,
I don't have a concern for my job.
Like I can give, even ifI can only give my time
sometimes that time is actually more than
you know, more than whatanybody could ask for
- And listening, right.
During that time, I like that you shared
(04:43):
about that conversationyou had because it was,
she came to you to seek some information
but I suspect you walkedaway with something,
some knowledge there too, right?
Listening to the thingsthat she was considering.
- It was interesting whereI, what I walked away with
that I hadn't anticipatedwas learning more
about the difficultyof being in a position
(05:03):
and in a employmentlandscape where we hear
about how many layoffs are happening,
we also hear about how manyjobs are available and how
there's not enough talentfor all the jobs available.
What I walked away withwas the idea of like
that's gotta be reallyconfusing for someone like her.
She's got great skills,she has a great background.
(05:24):
There's really nothingabout her that I could find
that I would say Iwouldn't hire her if I had
had a role open, I would'vea hundred percent said,
hey we should actuallyconsider her for this role.
And so I walked away thinking, wow
it's probably really confusing'cause all you hear in the
news is how there's more jobs available
than there are talent.
And in the same breath,this company just laid
(05:44):
off 10% of its workforce,20%, 15,000 people here.
And it's hard to wrap your mind
around what you're supposed todo with all that information
especially how that might impact you.
So yeah, I definitely learned something.
And I think too, I alwaystake away little nuggets
around experience and communication.
So, you know, one of the things
I took away from her was, all right,
if I ever am in thatposition where I need to
(06:06):
have a tough conversationand I need to lay someone off
one of the things I need tobe clear about, it's like
what does this mean foryou getting another job?
Because that is the first thingsomebody's thinking about.
So it was a good, I hadn'texpected to learn that
so it was definitely helpful.
- Do you think with all theselayoffs that are happening
you know, and you mentioned a few of them
and I feel like every time I jump online
(06:27):
it's another tech companylaying off, you know
tens of thousands of people.
Do you think that's changingpeople's feels about work?
- I think it's changing people'sfeels about their employer.
And the reason why Isay employer over work
is people feel the same way about work.
Most people want to have a job that is,
(06:47):
that brings them joy,that they find value in
that they're compensatedwhat they believe they
should be compensated for,
and that they don't mindgoing to work every day.
You know that they enjoy it,
they find things about it that they like.
I think the layoffs is, it's really
I think causing a bridge in trust.
I was talking to someonerecently who was struggling
with someone on their team and they said
(07:07):
this person keeps mentioningtrust, trust is an issue.
And she said, I'm not surewhat, where she's getting that,
what she's feeling it from.
I can't, I've asked her,she can't pinpoint it.
I think that's a great example.
I think it's changing how people feel
about their employers in terms of
you tell me that you'renot going to do layoffs.
How do I actually know that?
(07:28):
How do I know that I have job security?
And I think it's changingthe way people look
at what job security actually means
and then what kind of jobeither are you willing to take
what kind of job you know,do you feel valued in?
I think there's alsochanging the way people look
at their next step.
Maybe their next step isn't as, it doesn't
(07:50):
need to be as complicatedas they originally thought.
For some people now have reached out to me
they've said, hey, my nextstep is I need to make X amount
of money to support my family and I'm okay
if that's a step back, ifthat's not a leadership role
if it's in a differentindustry, et cetera.
- Which brings up the point
of how could we capitalizeon all these layoffs?
And maybe that's a terriblething to say, but I think
(08:11):
that if we're thinking strategicallyabout our organizations
and we know that there'sthis talent pool out there
how are we changing theway we think about work?
You know, we've had a lot
of conversations around skills, right?
Can we think differentlyabout people who are
in this space and theskills that they bring
to the table that might not bethe exact job, like you said
(08:32):
that they've had before or in the past.
- I think one of the ways we capitalize
on that is you go back and you look
at your own talent strategyand you say, you know
what am I doing to preventhaving to lay anybody
off at my company?
I know how bad that feels.
So what's a preventativemeasure I can take?
Can I do a skills inventory?
Is there a job that'sopen that I'm holding
onto because I'm soafraid that it's going to
I'm not gonna be able to fill it
(08:53):
or saving it just in case.
Is there an opportunity tolook at that and say, hey,
can a couple people whoalready work here actually
do that job and can I usethat budget somewhere else?
Or you know, is there aproject I can say no to?
And by saying no to it
that actually means thatI'm, I'm not at, you know,
I don't need to do anythingdifferent with my headcount.
(09:15):
I think when people look atthe word capitalize, right
their immediate, when yousaid the word capitalized
my immediately thought went
to money and profit and all of that.
I think we miss out sometimes
on another definition ofcapitalize, which is, you know
how can we benefit, right?
How do we benefit from layoffs?
Well, to me it's the sameway I benefited from leaders
(09:36):
in my past that I haven'tnecessarily always
found the most valuable,
which is I can always learnsomething from a leader
even if I don't like their style.
We can capitalize on layoffs even
if that doesn't mean wecan hire all the people
they laid off.
We capitalize by benefiting onhow, what was their strategy.
You know we hear about inthe news how some people just
get mass emailed, hundredsof people mass email
(10:00):
bye today's your last day.
Well, to me, I capitalize onthat by saying note to self,
don't mass email all thepeople that you wanna lay off.
Right, you think it's simple.
You think you've probablyalready known that.
I think that, you know, forme, I also think about how
do we capitalize on itwith our leaders in terms
of teaching them aboutmore, maybe I'm trying to,
(10:22):
I'm losing the word, likestrategic ways of dealing
with their issues andtheir headcount and maybe
just providing, to yourpoint earlier about listening
just spending more time.
I think another benefit atleast for me is, you know
whether it's listening orreading the LinkedIn posts,
it's really helpful becauseit helps me coordinate
(10:42):
our talent strategy to bemore robust and preventative.
Because, you know, I havebeen at companies where
I've had to lay off a lot of people.
You know, I will never saythat it was worse than actually
being the person laid off,
but it's not enjoyableand I don't recommend it.
- And having thoseconversations with leaders
about all the possibilitiesI think is really important
(11:02):
for us to lead in HR.
Because sometimes I thinkwe go to, you know what
it's gotta be headcount, right?
We gotta cut headcount.
There are other thingsavailable to us like right
maybe we decide, you know what
we're gonna stop matching 401k.
And the the headache thatyou're gonna experience
from that conversationwith your employees will
be way less than the experienceyou're gonna have by saying
(11:24):
we're gonna lay off evenif it's 10 people, right?
Like there is a component of transparency
though when it comes to layoffs.
Like you mentioned, likedon't send an email,
don't send a meme.
Don't do a, everybodyjump on the Zoom call
and like you just fire everybody that way.
Like there's gotta bethat compassion to it.
But it does open upyour opportunity to have
(11:45):
more strategic conversationswith your business
leaders about the business, right?
About making money and how that affects
your talent strategy.
- Yeah, absolutely.
It's interesting when you said a lot
of times when people go to saving money
their immediate thought is cut heads,
cut head count and you know, I agree.
(12:05):
I mean I think there's themore severe ways to save money.
Like you said, stop matching401k, you don't do raises.
I also think there's things
like look at your traveland expense budget.
You know, are therethings that, you know what
yes in the pandemiceveryone went to virtual
but are there things you'relike, hey, you know what
we're not actually gonnahave that meeting live
(12:26):
cause it's gonna save X amount of dollars
and it's gonna allow us tosave those two headcount.
I would guess that ifyou polled your employees
and you said, do you eitherwanna have this meeting
or do you want two ofyour friends to be let go?
My guess is they're gonna say, I would,
I'm okay with cancelingthe meeting if that means
that two of my friendsget to keep their jobs.
I think when you thinkabout things like that
from a different perspective,asking your employees
(12:48):
would you rather nobody get araise or would you rather half
of you don't show up at work tomorrow?
I think you're gonna see theend of the day people are more,
most people are morefocused on the greater good.
Like, I want a long lasting company.
I want the person next to meto still be there tomorrow.
If I have to forego something extra
that I wasn't planning onanyway, I'm okay with that.
(13:09):
So there's quite a bitof opportunity out there
to capitalize on thethings that we're seeing
in the market that we don't love.
And then you call a spade a spade,
there's also really great talent out there
that unfortunately theircompanies couldn't keep them.
Go scoop those people up.
I mean, interview the heck out
of as many people as you can find.
(13:30):
You'd be surprised what kind
of great talent just happened to be
in the department that happened
to no longer be needed at that company.
- As I wrap up ourconversation, how do you
or how have you supportedyour fellow coworkers
in your space, not atyour, at your location
but I mean the, therelationships that you've built
(13:51):
with other HR practitioners
as they're going throughthese layoff scenarios.
Because it can be, it can beheartbreaking for them, right?
If you've developed relationships
with some employees and you value them
and now you're the onedelivering the message
or supporting the delivery of the message
which I know you've been in that scenario
what advice do you have for them?
- Yeah, I mean what I'vetold people in the past is
(14:14):
I think there's a couple things.
One is you gotta save space for yourself.
So, and I don't mean that to be selfish
but it's gonna be toughto have a conversation
like that with someone.
You have to be in theright head space for it.
You can't be completely stressed out.
People can read that.
I am, I know you all can't see my face
but I am one who's told ona regular basis that you
know exactly what I'm thinkingbased on the look on my face.
(14:35):
If I'm gonna go lay someoneoff, I'm gonna be very
very focused and givemyself that space 'cause I
want to go in there very composed.
And the other thing Ialways remind people too
is you might be, you might besorry that this is happening
but in the moment tellingsomeone, oh I'm so sorry.
Most people we say sorryfor ourselves, we don't
(14:57):
actually say, sorry, doesn'thelp the other person.
It helps you, you know
feel better about whatever's happened.
Telling someone that you're
you're getting rid of their position
and that you're essentiallyupending their life,
sorry, isn't actually gonna cut it.
The better thing is come with resources,
come with plans, be very clear.
(15:18):
And the last thing is givepeople time to process
not in the moment and say
I'm not gonna go over everysingle detail with you.
Here are the high level things.
I'm gonna give this information to you.
I'm gonna set up time for us
in a couple days for you tocome back with questions.
I want you to come back with questions.
I want you to think about it.
I want you to think about whatelse you might wanna know.
(15:40):
Have answers, come withresources, have the information.
Give people time to process.
Especially people who youknow you're blindsiding them
nobody processes in the moment.
You have no idea what's goingon in their personal life.
Don't assume that they have somebody else
at home to lean on
whether it is for financialor emotional support.
Give 'em that space andhave resources ready.
(16:04):
The worst thing you can do
in my opinion as an employer is to lay off
a bunch of people in your workforce
and give them zero resourcesfor any of those things.
And I'm not talking just severanceand benefits, I'm talking
about job placement, resumewriting, emotional support.
It's to basically just sayyou meant absolutely nothing.
'cause that leads to the trust issues
we talked about before.
(16:26):
- Yeah, I couldn't agreemore about, you know, don't
make the assumptions and don'tleave them stranded right.
If you get anything from this episode
those are the two things Iwould say walk away with.
You know, and, and like you said
resources don'tnecessarily mean severance.
You might not be
in a situation where that'spart of the, you know
exit strategy that you guyshave during the layoff.
And so what are the thingsyou can provide and some
(16:48):
of the basics, like how do Italk about this going forward?
You know, the coachingI gave my brother is
you say you were laid off likeit wasn't your fault, right?
It's simple, but sometimesit's not as easy as that.
You know, if there's only a couple of you
or like why does your particularposition get eliminated?
So I really appreciate that.
I think there's a lotfor us to think about
(17:08):
the humanity when it comes to this
and just really listeningand supporting each other.
- Yeah, I think the lastthing I would leave you
with Shari too is you said your brother
made me think of, you know
my cousin's actually been laid off two
or three times in his careerand the last conversation him
and I had is, how do I say that
I've been laid off multiple times
(17:28):
and people not connect it tome like I did something wrong?
And I said, you know
that's where you comewith the company profile.
That's where you come with what's going
on with the companyand you have the facts.
And the only thing Iwould leave people with
is if that is you andyou're listening to this
like I know it's hard,don't take it personally.
(17:48):
Like don't own that
as something that becomes apart of you or your identity.
It's something that happenedto you and you know what?
Like you will get past it
and you will find a way andyou have to own it, you know?
And it's okay to own it withfacts and it's okay to own it
with confidence that you will overcome it.
- Such wise words.Kate, thank you so much.
- Thanks for having me, Shari.
(18:10):
- This podcast is broughtto you by Paylocity
a leading HCM provider thatfrees you from the task
of today so you can focus moreon the promise of tomorrow.
If you'd like to submit atopic or appear as a guest
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