Beyond the Hustle: When Success Covers Unhealed Pain with Isaiah Pettway - Episode #96 - Peace & Prosperity Podcast

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Like I became hyper fixated on being the best.
I became hyper fixated onachieving and oh, I can't get a
B.
I gotta be the best.
I it all of all of the things,right?
You I can't to your pointthough, like I can't go out the
house and just throw on at-shirt and sweatpant.
Like I have to, and the thepressure of that, who can handle

(00:23):
that 24-7?

SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
Welcome to the Peace and Prosperity Podcast, where we
talk mental wellness,confidence, and real life tools
to help high achievers thrive.
I'm your host, Jason Phillips,licensed therapist, speaker,
coach, and I'm glad you're here.
Let's get into the episode.
And we've known each other.

SPEAKER_00 (00:53):
Dude, 20, it would be 1998.
Yeah.
98.
That is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
The thing is, man, you don't look that much
different.
I thought I look that muchdifferent, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
No, we we we we pretty much, we pretty much my
my son picks me all the time.
He said, You didn't age.
You've been you've he said youlook like a grown man since you
was 12.
Such is life.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Um he's picking up on it now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
This is this is good.
So I wanted to talk about blackmen and mental health because
even though we've known eachother for like 30 years or
something, we weren't thinkingabout at least we weren't
talking about mental health likewe are now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33):
So things that we were experiencing, things that
we were going through, yeah, wejust kind of kept it in, or at
least that's what I did.
What about you?

SPEAKER_00 (01:41):
No, same thing, man.
You know, I I startedexperiencing trauma at a very
young age.
Both of my biological parentswere deceased by the time I was
11.
And, you know, that caused a lotof trauma in and of itself.
And then being an orphan and andtrying to figure out that whole
thing, going from one family toanother family, and and then

(02:04):
just the the natural sort ofkind of progression of growing
and and trying to trying tobecome, if you will, and the
pressures that come with thatwas a lot.
And so, no, it was not talkedabout.
And I found myself, you know,really having to deal with a lot
of issues because there wasn't aspace for me to express, or at

(02:24):
least I didn't feel there was uhspace for me to express that.
And that's tough, man.

SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
You know, I lost my parents.
Well, my dad around 18, but mymom, who I was much closer with,
and raised me around 30, Ibelieve.
So, or 31, 32.
But you said you've lost bothyour parents by 11.

SPEAKER_00 (02:41):
Yes, yes.
My my dad died of cancer, andthen my mom actually uh had a
massive heart attack, and shedied in my arms.
Uh, so I was, you know, I wasthe last one with her.
So imagine being 11 and youknow, you know, having to having
to deal with that, man.
And I was brought up in a very,in some ways, a very traditional

(03:02):
male-dominated family.
And so it was be a man, suck itup, move on with life.
And, you know, and so you try todo that.
You try to acclimate to thenorms, if you will.
And not to mention growing up inthe church, and it's the whole,
you know, just pray about it,or, you know, just give it to
God.
And but, you know, and you'reyou're trying to do all of that,

(03:23):
but at the same time, you haveall of these feelings, you have
all of these emotions.
You're you're confused, you, youfeel abandoned, you feel, and
these things fester, and and youconvince yourself that, you
know, oh, I can deal with it, Ican handle it.
I'm just, and then they manifestin in other ways that are
destructive.
So you then develop destructivebehaviors that are are really at

(03:43):
the root of them, are thoseunresolved issues that come from
the loss of a parent, you know,the feeling of abandonment and
lack of safety and things ofthat sort.
So it was it was a rough ride,man.
It was it was it was a struggle.

SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
Uh did your parents or your your caregivers at the
time, because your grand, yourgrandmother stepped in?

SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
My grandmother stepped in for a minute, and
then uh right before, rightbefore high school, my my older
half-brother, he and his wife uhtook on guardianship of me, and
I I moved with them.
So between between both ofthose.

SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
Did they recommend therapy at the time?

SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
No.
And I think that that was, anddon't get me wrong, the amazing
people, I think people respondto situations based on the
capacity that they have at thetime.
But no, it was not, it was not athing.
I think it was very much of, oh,you know, he just he needs to
find something to do.
He needs to, you know, findsomething to direct his energy
to energy towards and all ofthat.

(04:41):
And so, no, it was not a, it wasnot a thing.
It was not until my actually mysenior year in high school, I
attempted to commit suicide.
It was, interestingly enough, itwas right before, it was right
before um our uh Castec, uh, oursenior fashion, talent fashion
show.
And we some stuff was going onat home and just all of the

(05:04):
stuff bubbling up.
And I I attempted and I wasunsuccessful, thank God.
But it was it wasn't until then,um, and the resources that I was
getting was actually fromschool.
Um uh Miss English, uh, youknow, she knew about it, and she
she was she was able to talk tosome of the resources that we
had at CAS, and you know, Istart seeing a counselor at

(05:26):
school regularly and things likethat.
So it wasn't until then uh thatin a formal way, you know, I was
able to start really processingwhat was going on.

SPEAKER_01 (05:35):
Look, you lost both your parents by age 11.
You keep going through school,do well, you're at the one of
the best schools in New York,and then you get to the very
end, we're about to graduate,senior year, you attempt
suicide, and that's when youfirst started to see a formal
counselor, not a teacher, not apastor, yeah, not a mentor.

(05:57):
But it was until you were reallyat the very end.

SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
Yes, yes.
And I I can't imagine, I well, Ican't imagine.
If I would have had thatopportunity earlier, I think
there are a lot of things that II dealt with, went through that
I could have avoided.
Just having that space, thatnon, that non-judgmental, that
non-pressure forming space ofbeing able to just say, like not

(06:22):
even necessarily needing just aresolution per se, just to be
able to express it, right, wasreally was really important.
And you think about spaces likethe barbershop or church or
places like that, and you know,I in our in our community, in
African American community, alot of people say, oh, you know,
those are our therapy spaces,which to a large degree they

(06:45):
are.
But you also have to take intoconsideration that those spaces
are also hyper masculine,they're hyper, well, you know,
man in the way of we men, youknow, that kind of and so if
you're dealing with a level ofvulnerability, you know, therapy
and and making that that'sthat's vulnerability.
And we haven't put those kindsof things in those spaces.

SPEAKER_01 (07:07):
And there's also stoicism in those spaces, but uh
they're public.
Yes.
Like even though the barbershopis great, and I, you know, I
talk to my barber, especiallythe one I have now, you know, we
have a close relationship, butit's public spaces.
Yes, yeah, and you don't know,like it's not confidentiality.
There's no HIPAA in thebarbershop.
Yeah, and there's really noHIPAA in the church either.

SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
None whatsoever.
And that is, I remember I was ina church service with a pastor
that I knew very well, and hewas up preaching, and he didn't
say names, but he startedtalking about a situation with
some individuals that was goingon in church, and I knew about
it.
And immediately in that moment,I said to myself, you'll never

(07:49):
get like, like, I'll never havethis conversation with you
because you're never, I'm nevergonna be the one up there that
you're talking about.
Like, you know, yeah.
So if those spaces, if I wouldhave had an opportunity, I think
earlier on, there's a lot ofmistakes that I made that I I
think I could have avoidedbecause they were a function of
me trying to process somethingin me that I did not have

(08:11):
another way to do, to do that.
And so I think it's importantfor us to figure out ways to um
to manage that.
But even like you were talkingearlier about this happened and
then I was doing well, going tothe best high school, and I
still think the number one highschool in the world, but you
know, we we can talk about that.
But the other thing that Irealized was that part of my

(08:32):
response to the trauma that Iwas experiencing was it was an
achievement response.
Like I became hyper fixated onbeing the best.
I became hyper-fixated onachieving and oh, I can't get a
B.
I gotta be the best.
I it all of the all of thethings, right?

(08:52):
You I can't, to your pointthough, like I can't go out the
house and just throw on at-shirt and sweatpant.
Like I have to, and the thepressure of that, who can handle
that 24-7, right?
And I think not being able todeal with that until I was good
and grown was part of thestruggle.

SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
What would you what do you think are some of the
reasons why we as black mendon't seek out therapy at the
same rate as like ourcounterparts?

SPEAKER_00 (09:20):
Good question.
I think that in the the blackcommunity in particular,
hypermasculinity is at a higherrate than any other group.
And I think, you know, it goesback to our our historical
happenings, right?
During the slavery era and JimCrow, the the masculinity of the
black man was was undermined inso many ways.

(09:43):
And uh, you know, trying just tobe taken away.
So that pendulum's, I feel likethat pendulum has swung to the
extreme opposite end, right?
Where now we we we have to behypermascular, we have to be
hyper-vigilant.
And so that space, being able toprocess those things in a very
healthy way is just notsomething that has been a part
of our societal norm, if youwill.

(10:04):
But I think that the other partof it is that we have to dispel
the myth that doing so equatesto weakness.
That that there is not, thatthat's not weak.
Like it is not weak toacknowledge your emotions.
It's not weak to deal with howyou're feeling and be able to

(10:25):
process that.
I I would argue that it'sactually the extreme opposite of
that.
It it shows a great degree ofstrength to be able to do that,
because in doing so, you allowyour space, yourself the space
to to improve and to get betteras opposed to blowing up on your
family, being angry all thetime.
Like, you know, I was jokingwith my brother.

(10:46):
It's like some some dudes, man,like, do you ever smile?
Like, do you like you mad?
You just woke up, you mad overbacon?
Like it's the first thing in themorning.
Like, you know, but a lot ofthat is because we've been given
this idea that we have to bethat way.
And and I think that havingconversations like this and and
and and you know, having uhpractitioners such as yourself

(11:08):
and and others, you know,infusing our community with this
understanding is so vital and soimportant.

SPEAKER_01 (11:14):
And you having a son too.
What have you taught PJ aroundhis emotions, his mental health,
uh how to balance it all?

SPEAKER_00 (11:21):
Man, it is, it it was trying to be intentional
about that was very important.
So we started PJ in therapy whenhe was maybe seven years old.
And it was it was a couple ofthings.
As my my ex-wife and I were knewwe were moving towards a
divorce, we said, listen, weneed to create some normalcy for

(11:42):
him with the therapist to beable to process this so that
when we do finally bring thisinformation to him, he already
has a structure to be able toprocess and deal with, you know,
whatever he's gonna go through,whatever he's gonna deal with.
And so we were very intentionalabout that.
But the other part of it was wejust wanted to get the have
someone to give us the skill setto also create a space outside
of therapy for him.

(12:03):
And I remember we we we don't doit as much now, but him and his
therapist created this thingthat was called the safety
bubble.
And so, and the thing with thesafety bubble was he would come
to us and he would say, I needto get in the safety bubble.
And what it was was he was freeto say whatever, however he felt
whatever he needed to say, hecouldn't get in trouble, we

(12:24):
couldn't get angry.
Like it was that.
And so, and it helped so much.
Like there were so many thingsthat we were able to process
with him, even beyond just thechange in our marital situation,
but just giving him the space tobe able to say, Listen, I need
to say this to you.
And I need to say it without thefear of I'm gonna get in trouble
or it's gonna be a problem.
So he would say, he would comeand say, I need to get in the

(12:45):
safety bubble.
He knew, he knew, he would, youknow, and and it it actually
became a really great way toteach him how to manage that.
The other thing was beingintentional with stuff, man, the
movie inside out.
I tell parents all the time,like Yeah, oh my God.
It is it is an amazing way tosort of kind of navigate a

(13:07):
conversation with your childabout all of the emotions that
they're feeling and what do theymean, and getting them to see
that the same emotions that theyhave other people have.
And so we we we were we weredivorced by this time, and we
took him to see the movietogether.
Like we were like, we need, youknow, we're gonna collaborate,
get you to.
Because we want our commitmentis to raise as much as we can to

(13:31):
raise a well-rounded young manwho knows that there are
opportunities to deal withwhatever life presents you with.

SPEAKER_01 (13:40):
So I'm gonna go back a little bit.
You started counselor, you sawyour first counselor in high
school.
I'm gonna guess this was afemale counselor.

SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
It was.
It was.

SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
How important is it, or do you think it's important
for men to have male, black,black male therapists?

SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
So my first experience with a black male
therapist was the start ofCOVID.
And I actually started with himright before COVID hit.
And I had, I he's still, he's mytherapist till till today.
And I didn't realize how much ofa difference it made until I had

(14:21):
one.
Honest, honest to, honest toGod, like I did.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So one, so I've had in in thecourse of my therapy experience,
I've had a Caucasian female, twoAfrican-American females, and a
Caucasian male.
And now I'm I'm with theAfrican-American male.
And what I found is that in allof those experiences, because of

(14:44):
the various intersections that Ihave, there were parts of my
experience that there was a lackof awareness of.
So it hindered the ability of,in my opinion, it hindered the
ability of my various therapiststo assist me in sort of kind of
navigating in a holistic way myexperience.
Not that they weren't productivein parts of my experience, but

(15:08):
from a holistic standpoint, toso that I can I can leave a
session feeling like, oh, me asa whole person is being dealt
with.
Me in a whole sense is beingdealt with.
And so, and and to varyingdegrees, I think the furthest
away from my experience wouldhave been the Caucasian female.
And she was wonderful, don't getme wrong, but just being able to
process my experience, she shecould not understand.

(15:31):
So we spent a lot of time, Ifelt like I spent a lot of time
trying to create a context forher to understand what I was
dealing with instead of justdealing with what you know I was
dealing with, which is anotherlayer of struggle.
But now there are days where Igo into therapy and you know,
I'm sitting there across there,and I don't even have to

(15:51):
communicate.
Like it's just, you know, it'salmost like you just see it and
you know, you know the look.
You know, and I think thatthere's power in that, not to
mention the similar livedexperience.
You you're dealing with aprofessional, you're dealing
with a father, you're dealingwith an African-American man who
has to to function in spaceswhere he's the minority and

(16:13):
dealing with the the societalpressures of just all of that.
I think that in and of itselfcreates, as our our buzzword
today, creates a safe space,right?
To be able to process in aholistic way.

SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
When we don't have safe spaces, when we don't take
care of our mental health, whatdo you think are some of the
fallouts?

SPEAKER_00 (16:34):
Yeah.
I think one is unfulfillment andregret.
I I think there are so manytimes where I come in contact
with black men in particular,and they they're describing this
feeling that they have in life.
Um, and they they can't tellwhere it comes from.
And what it what it comes downto is regret and unfulfillment.

(16:56):
Uh regret of things that they'vedone or things that they haven't
done, regret in the ways inwhich they've behaved,
unfulfillment, you know, becauseof uh their processing, lack,
lack of discipline, like they'rethey're unfulfilled in their
lives, right?
And so um I think that thatstarts it, and then we see the
ripple effect of that.

(17:17):
We have broken relationships, wehave, you know, you're you're
unable to show up for the peoplein your community, your, your,
your wives, your girlfriends,your your mothers, your sons,
your daughters, you know, you'renot able to show up in the most
real way.
You know, I remember for me,there was a time where I stopped
going to therapy just because ofwe we grinding.
So it's it's it's we're busy.

(17:39):
So, you know, that's on a backburner.
And I was doing so much andtrying to pro, I was just being,
I was just under pressure and Iwas being so mean to my son.
Like every little thing that he,and he was just being a kid.
Every little thing that he did,I was going from zero to a
hundred.
Like, and I literally, I'llnever forget it.
I was in a car one day and Ilooked back at him, and he just

(18:01):
had this look on his face oflike just trepidation, like,
like I can't move.
I can't, you know, I don't wantto get in trouble.
And I'm like, why?
You're you're making him feelthat way.
And for me, it was I need to goto therapy because I need to be
able to process what's going onwith me so that I can better
show up as a father, I canbetter show up as a pastor, I

(18:22):
can better show uh show up inall of these other areas of my
life.
And so I think that when wedon't, we deny ourselves the
reality of who we can be in allof the areas of our lives
because we have not givenourselves the permission to be
in a place where we can reallyprocess what's going on with us,
right?
And I think that that'simportant to understand.

SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
That one really spoke to me.
Um seriously.
I want to ask.
You talking, you mean youtouched on so much.
You touched on so much.
Now, Isaiah, what somebody'sgonna be watching this or
listening to it, and they'restill gonna be on the fence
about our therapy.
What do you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
I think what do you stand to lose kind of situation?
In that for me, therapy wasnever something that, you know,
if I do this, I'm gonna suffer.
To me, there was only thepossibility of a benefit.
Either I was gonna still be atground zero and still be dealing
with whatever I was dealingwith, or I was going to get
better.
I didn't, I didn't see it as away to contribute to my

(19:26):
circumstances getting worse.
And so what I would say to themis if it is something that
you're on a fence about, try itand give yourself space to
really commit to it, to see thebenefits of it.
And the other part of that is ifyou don't, what other options do
you have?
I think that one of the thingsthat we have to grapple with is

(19:48):
what do we really want out ofour life experience?
And if we're if we're saying wereally want our life experience
to be whole, we want it to bepositive, we want to grow, we
want success, then we have to dothe things that are necessary to
get to that end.
And so if that is what you'resaying you want out of your
life, why not put the buildingblocks in place to make sure

(20:09):
that that is there?
And for me, and I think foreveryone, really, therapy has to
be one of those building blocks.
Because life, as the young folkssay, life is gonna be life.
Like it it, I don't care howmuch money you have, I don't
care your background, I don'tcare where you come from, life
is going to present you withchallenges.
And especially if you're tryingto do anything.

(20:30):
If you if you're trying to makeprogress in your life, you're
trying to grow, you're trying tobe successful, you're trying to
get a degree, you're trying tohave a successful marriage,
build a family.
Life is going to happen, and youneed a space to be able to
process those happenings thatwill allow you not to lose
ground.

SPEAKER_01 (20:48):
Hold on.
The whole well, one of thereasons we haven't talked about,
and this won't be on my list,the intersection of God and
therapy.
Yeah.
How do you advocate for therapyas someone who is a man of God?
Yeah, what is that like?
And how do you how do youpersonally manage it?
And then how do you teach it tothose who come to to serve with

(21:12):
you?

SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Absolutely.
I I think that they're one andthe same.
So let me start there.
I my advocacy for to otherpeople is the same level of
advocacy that I have with it formyself, in that I believe, oh,
for example, when when when wetalk about God, we believe God
for healing, right?
We're gonna go to the doctor andwe're we're gonna we're gonna

(21:32):
let the doctor check us out.
We're gonna we're gonna get onthe medication.
The doctor says, you know, weneed surgery, we're gonna get
surgery.
Why?
Because we believe that God canuse that surgeon, we believe
that God can use that doctor, webelieve that God can use that
medication to help heal us.
Well, if if we believe that inin that regard, in my mind, it's
the same thing with therapy.

(21:52):
If if I believe that, if I'mpraying and asking God to
deliver me from depression or tohelp me feel fulfilled and joy
in my life, or to help me dealwith my anger issues.
Well, guess what?
There's a professional that canassist us with that.
And and and God can use themjust the way that God can use
that medical doctor, right?

(22:13):
And so I believe that we giveourselves over to the
understanding that themiracle-working power of God in
the earth comes through people.
And that's say that one more.
The miracle-working power of Godin the earth comes through
people.
That we we believe that we arethe hands and the feet of God,

(22:33):
that if we're gonna demonstratethe love of God, it comes from
me showing it to you.
If God wants to provide for thehomeless, we we do it.
Why?
Because we believe that we arethe hands and feet of God.
Because the miracle workingpower of God in the earth comes
through us.
So it's the same thing inregards to therapy.
If I'm expecting God to show upfor me in my mental health, I

(22:55):
can believe God to do thatthrough my therapist.
And so for me, it was in, I hadto be intentional about Lord,
direct me to the righttherapist.
Lord, help me understand andgive me the strength to go into
these therapy sessions and beforthcoming and to be honest and
open, right?
And so being able to say that Ithink is important.
The other thing is I thinkthere's a biblical context for

(23:18):
it.
For example, the the prophetJeremiah is considered the
weeping prophet.
No one ever asked themselves,why was he always crying?
Well, if you study scripture,you will see that he often dealt
with being depressed, right?
And God was, in in speakingdirectly to him, God was always
sending him into a context to beable to discuss what he was

(23:40):
filling with others, giving himothers to talk to.
Like, so there's a biblicalcontext for it.
Or the prophet Elijah, when hewas had just defeated the
prophets of Baal and Jezebel waschasing him, and he runs and he
goes to a brook and he's theresleeping because he's depressed.
And the Bible says that Godsends a raven to feed him and
tells him, get up, shakeyourself off, get you something

(24:01):
to eat, and go talk to somebody.
You get what I'm saying?
So, so that in and of itselfgives me a context to know that
even in my relationship withGod, even in God's hand being on
my life and him using me, thatthere are still moments where
the emotional impact of all ofthat is going to weigh on me.

(24:22):
And I need a context to be ableto process that and deal with
that.
And so that's what I believe,that's what I teach as a pastor.
I tell people all the time,although I have pastoral
counseling credentials, I am nota therapist.
And so I will, you can come andtalk to me, share with me, but
I'm also going to give youresources to go see an actual

(24:42):
therapist to sit down with thembecause that's not my that's not
my area of expertise.
And I think that one of thedisservices that we've done in
the black church is we've triedto act like we're the end-all,
be-all when it comes to likepastors and stuff.
I'm not.
This is an issue, you need totalk to somebody.
And I'm gonna give you aresource to do so.

SPEAKER_01 (25:00):
That sparked a memory, though.
I remember you did our pastoralcounselor, yeah.
I forgot about that.
I did, but it was really helpfulthough.

SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
It was and I think part of it is being able to
understand the degree to whichyou can help somebody.
Like there are things, ofcourse, there are things that I
can offer, but at the point atwhich it's like, okay, this is a
little deeper than what I cando, you got to be able to
provide those resources topeople.
And so I think that faith andtherapy honestly are one and the

(25:28):
same.

SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
Man, I say I appreciate you.
Of course, man.
This is this is good.
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
Thanks for tuning in to thePeace and Prosperity Podcast.
If today's episode brought youclarity, encouragement, or even
a moment of calm, share it withsomeone who needs to hear it

(25:51):
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Beyond the Hustle: When Success Covers Unhealed Pain with Isaiah Pettway - Episode #96

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Beyond the Hustle: When Success Covers Unhealed Pain with Isaiah Pettway - Episode #96