April 22, 2025 • 43 mins
The Peace & Prosperity Podcast is a bi-weekly conversation with Jason Phillips, LCSW, licensed therapist and confidence expert in Raleigh, NC, discussing all things related to self-love and self-confidence, and how we can improve ourselves personally and professionally.
From teenage mom of five to trauma expert, Lisa Maaca Bartlette shares her powerful journey of resilience, healing, and purpose. She breaks down the science of adolescent brain development and how trauma impacts decision-making, offering practical tools like the “Five C’s” model to help adults better connect with and support young people. At the core of her message? Validation over judgment builds confidence, connection, and emotional growth in the next generation. Plus, remember to join our podcast community—like, share, subscribe, and let us know what topics you want us to cover next. Engage with us, send a DM, or leave a review. Let's continue this journey towards peace and prosperity together.
To stay connected with Jason and learn about coaching, connect with Jason on social media:
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Visit Jason's website for a consultation:
Website -https://www.jasonlphillips.com
To book Jason to speak to your team or organization:
https://peaceprosperitycoaching.hbportal.co/public/660d8068c9d2d600253b215b/1-Inquiry
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right well, welcome to another episode of
the Peace and Prosperity Podcast.
I'm joined with one of mycolleagues.
Actually, we met in thedoctoral social work program.
Lisa, super glad to have you.
Thank you for being here.
Do you want to introduceyourself?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I really appreciate the invitation.
This is, I think, the thirdtime.
Well, we've met in person onceyou happen to be out here in LA
but we met repeatedly on Zoomcalls for the program and during
that program got to know eachother a little bit.
So I'm just really excited tobe here, lisa Mayock-Bartlett,
coming to you from SouthernCalifornia, orange County
(00:44):
specifically.
But I am a Midwestern girl,born and raised Ohio, notably,
and Minnesota, and so I call anera of my life that began in
adolescence trauma drama.
That was me, mama, fivechildren by the age of 26.
And that piece of my life hasso shaped who I've become and
(01:08):
what I've done in my life and mywork.
So social work was not on thetrajectory for me.
I didn't get around to mymaster's work until age 42.
And when I did, I accepted afull scholarship at Case Western
Reserve University in Cleveland, ohio.
It just happened to be insocial sciences, so I had like
Googled what can you do withthat degree?
(01:29):
And there was all kinds ofpossibilities which worked well
for me.
So, yeah, I then got kind ofbaptized by fire I call it into
child welfare public governmentagency work in in Ohio.
So that was in 2016, when Igraduated with my master's and I
continued child welfare socialwork practice in Ohio or in
(01:51):
California.
I've been in California now forseven and a half years,
practiced in two counties hereand then, like a lot of people
in the world, resigned myposition in 2020 to go back to
school.
So, before we met, I began PhDwork at Claremont Graduate
University here in Los AngelesCounty, and that was under kind
(02:12):
of the program of positiveorganizational development and I
thought that I wanted toconduct research.
Turns out, not at all.
I love research, like you do.
Right, we love studying andreading what the sciences are
saying, but I am more of anapplied practitioner.
I distill the stories that cometo us from science and from
(02:36):
people right, distilling thestories of shared experiences
and translate those to audiencesso they can understand what the
science is saying, right topeople who aren't scientists and
aren't neuroscience researchnerds like I am.
In 2021, I started my company,lisa Miyaka Inc.
And we exist to transformtrauma, first in our own lives
(03:00):
and then in the lives of others.
Yeah, so I've worked now formyself for several years and
built an organization thatprovides workforce training
right now all over California tojuvenile probation officers and
staff, as well as child welfare, social work practitioners and
leadership and agencies.
(03:21):
So that's kind of right now thebulk of my work.
I do some keynote speeches,workshops and things like that,
and a TED Talk in 2024.
Yes, thank you for mentioningthat the power of putting people
first.
So really my work, like yours,is all on resolving and healing
(03:44):
traumatic experiences.
I do most of that now at themezzo and the macro level, not
in direct practice.
One-on-one Can you break?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
that down a little bit and then we'll go back to so
, because a lot of thepractitioners I've had on the
podcast have been moreone-on-one doing micro work.
Can you explain the mezzo andmacro, what that looks like?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, absolutely so.
My master's was in directpractice.
That's where the scholarshipopportunity was, so I took it,
even though my mind works at themacro level.
So that's kind of the larger,like organizational level right,
looking at big issues from thelarge perspective.
(04:27):
So whether that be agency,state, federal right, or looking
at issues that affect an entirepopulation, those are that's
like macro.
Mezzo is between macro andmicro.
It's this kind of the grouplevel and that's kind of where I
spend most of my time.
(04:47):
I train groups, cohorts, newstaff or existing staff on kind
of the 30 to 50 people in theaudience range.
I also facilitate groupconversations and connection
circles with groups.
So that's what mezzo is right,kind of this in-between that has
(05:08):
so much effect on the directpractice, the one-on-one, but
it's directed by the macropolicies right, and the leaders
that shape our opportunities todo direct practice or mezzo
practice.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Very helpful, very helpful Funny story.
Once, this was years ago, I wasa friend of mine.
She said basically I should bedoing macro level work and the
micro didn't matter.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Interesting.
How did you take that?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I was offended.
Yeah, I mean I was highlyoffended, especially that was
like 15 years ago, so I'm moreappreciative of all spaces and
what we do.
But I want to highlight you andgo back a little bit, because
you said you had five kids by 26.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yes, want to know the story leading up to that.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Sure go ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, I've been an academic I think, since the day
I was born.
I came into this world kind ofwired for curiosity.
I was a very high achiever allthrough elementary and high
school, graduated top of myclass.
I had almost what do you callit a photographic memory.
So part of my brain workedreally really well, very fast
processing speed and all of that.
(06:21):
So I was on the trajectory ofHarvard, actually accepted there
I was.
I had full scholarships to afew other notable universities
and two weeks after giving myvaledictory speech to a crowded
Christian school auditorium, Iwas pregnant.
So to solve the problem thatwas Lisa.
(06:43):
My family planned my weddingand by fall of that year I
married a father of that one andthen he became the father of
all five of my children.
And, yeah, I just had children,had children, had children and
got really stuck Right, which iswhat trauma does it's in fact,
I think it's Britt Frank,another clinician does it's, in
(07:05):
fact, I think it's Britt Frank,another clinician.
She calls trauma the science ofstuck.
So there were parts of my brainthat had tremendous capacity,
but there were other parts of meright neurobiologically that
had some stuckness from sexualabuse in childhood, sexual abuse
in childhood and so until goingto school with you and my
(07:26):
master's work, my life didn'tmake a lot of sense to a lot of
people watching me, observersright and to myself.
So this has been this beautifulunfolding of an understanding
of who I am, why I made some ofthe choices I made.
It helps me frame thosestruggles and really give myself
(07:50):
a lot of grace and forgivenessfor the parenting that I did
before I was ready and all ofthat so interestingly, now fast
forward.
I, of course, got into the workof child welfare and began to
study brain development and theneurobiology of trauma, which
has led me to create trainingsand have lots of conversations
(08:12):
about that.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
So you probably loved our first class where we
studied the neurobiology oftrauma.
That was probably like sofascinating for you.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So fascinating, and I think that was the.
Are you talking about DrJennifer Williams course?
Oh, that was the.
Are you talking about DrJennifer Williams course?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Oh, that was our second class.
The first two stand out for me.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, and I honed very quickly in on adolescent
brain development.
Something in that class sparkedmore curiosity.
I also had just accepted arequest to write curriculum for
juvenile probation here inSouthern California and I was
like I want to teach aboutadolescent brain development.
(08:51):
The more we understand theamazing capacity of the
adolescent brain, but also thestruggles right that adolescents
have in bouncing between theirchildhood selves and their
adolescent selves justfascinated me and again I had
some of my own internalawakening as well as have been
(09:12):
able to now help those who helpadolescents better navigate how
to do that.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So we're going to get into the work that you do for
sure, but I want to ask thisquestion because I think it will
help a lot of people how didyou get unstuck when you said I
mean you've made some bigdecisions.
What was that like?
How did you come to get unstuck?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Well, I think healing is lifelong.
So let me just say that some ofus we stay stuck or we get a
little unstuck, and my stucknessjust had me.
It had me unable to thinkoutside of the crisis or the
moment, or raising these kids.
I just lost hope that I wouldmove on in life and accomplish
(09:58):
anything else, and so really, itwas another kind of tragedy
that helped me get unstuck, andso I stayed married for 20 years
to the father of my children,but we eventually divorced, and
in that divorce I had fiveteenagers at the time, and so,
recognizing the impact andnavigating us through that, I
(10:22):
realized I've been, I'm stuck atthe age that they are, and so I
was motivated to just live mylife right.
To just live my life, whichmeant going back to school,
which felt very, very scary,very, very scary.
At 37 years of age, I went tocollege.
(10:46):
The same year, my oldestdaughter went to college, and I
spent weekends in anon-traditional program.
I'd go to class Friday nightfrom 6 to 10 pm.
I'd get up and do class 8 to 4on Saturday every other weekend,
and those happened to be theweekends I didn't have parenting
responsibilities.
Post-divorce, those happened tobe the weekends I didn't have
(11:06):
parenting responsibilitiespost-divorce.
I stayed in a little dorm in atiny little Northeastern Ohio
college.
And I was like the oldest ladyin the room.
So you were like a differentworld.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
The TV show.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I mean, I was shaken in my boots, I felt a lot of
imposter syndrome, inadequacy,inferiority and like.
What the hell are you thinking,lisa?
Like who does this?
Who goes back to school at thisage?
What helped you get?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
through that, because that is a lot I mean to go back
to school to start from.
So you're saying at 37, that'swhen you started your bachelor's
career, bachelor's degree.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, and it took me five years going to school every
other weekend.
I had a daughter and a songraduate college while I was in
college and I had a daughterthat had moved from my home in
Cleveland to Denver so I wasflying back and forth to see her
and then I got this opportunityto do master's work after that.
(12:12):
So along the way, there areshining lights, there are
glimmers of in the form ofpeople, a couple professors that
looked at me and saw my lightand my gift and just gave me the
support, cheerleading, offeringto meet outside of class and
(12:33):
connect the assignments to, youknow, my real life that I'm just
trying to figure out.
So again, I think just findingmyself back into a childhood
dream, right or notion, findingthe academic again helped me get
, I guess, unstuck and open tomore possibilities.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, that's huge.
I didn't know that about youand your college career.
I mean, this is awesome becauseI know so many people.
I'm 40.
So a lot of my peers are aroundthe age you were when you were
just going to get your master's.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Just starting.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Just starting too.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Just starting and that again I was like there was
also this.
I mean I'm sure you rememberyou're 19 and 20 and 21 and 22.
21 and 22, like for traditionalfolks that get to go to college
or party and do all thosethings Like I couldn't and
didn't.
I had all these children and soI was forced to kind of grow up
(13:34):
that way.
But there were parts of me thathad moved through that time of
exploration and so I did that inmy early forties, which maybe
doesn't look as good on a 40year old as it did on a 15 year
old, but that's how we getunstuck, we move through those
phases that we were stuck inbefore.
(13:55):
And so again, support ofprofessors, individuals that
kept seeing my light and shininga light on it, non-judgmental
friends.
I met several of them in theprocess of going through school,
a few others that were midlifeattendees, and I took some risks
At Hiram College, which iswhere I got my bachelor's degree
(14:17):
.
They had an idea competition andsince my minor was
entrepreneurial studies, Ientered this idea competition
with a whole bunch oftraditional students that had
like really great ideas formaking money and, you know,
putting business things outthere in the world.
I had an idea to save theorphans in Ukraine, where I had
(14:41):
visited in 2006 and 2008.
Ukraine, where I had visited in2006 and 2008.
And so I pitched this idea fora nonprofit organization to
intervene on behalf ofgraduating seniors in Ukraine,
because there's nothing for themafter that.
So again, I picked a populationright that was the same age as
(15:02):
I was when I got stuck and I wonthe competition and went on and
won the next level of thecompetition and got $5,000 in my
pocket and so I started anorganization and I just really
started believing in myself.
I'm like, well, if my messageresounds with other people, then
so those plans helped.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
They helped you grow your own confidence.
So has this led you to studyand become really interested in
adolescent brain development?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I think less about brain development until we had
that class together at thedoctoral level, but more about
what interventions can servethis very, very, very vulnerable
population.
So I think there's two times inchildhood that are extremely
vulnerable and necessary forcertain types of environmental
(15:56):
conditions, notably zero tothree.
And then this adolescent timewhere society has this age of
emancipation at 18, thisexpectation that you're ready to
go into the world.
Right, you can.
I don't know.
What can you do at 18?
Smoke, cigarettes?
Yeah, all those things yeah,tattoo yeah, but are you really
(16:22):
ready?
Right?
I think it's actually a timewhere you need as much support
as possible in a different wayand now that I know the
neuroscience, I get it becausepart of our brains are rapidly
maturing during adolescence, butdon't reach maturity until
about age 25 or 26.
And what do you?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
think that you know, given today's age, especially
with social media being such abig role in our lives, what do
you think, how do you think,that impacts with our brain
development and maturation level?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
It's such a great question and I want to be clear.
I'm not a neuroscientist but Ido, of course, read a lot, a lot
, and I'll actually.
I have one book right here I'llmake mention of, because you
asked the question thisGeneration, by Jonathan Haidt,
how the great rewiring ofchildhood is causing an epidemic
of mental illness.
So he posits that the wiring iswhat's happened when we have
(17:24):
moved away from a play basedchildhood into a phone based
childhood and so this is a bit.
So I don't know about you alittle bit.
So I don't know about you.
I'm a little bit older than you, a lot older, but my childhood
consisted of being sent outdoorsto run amok with the
neighborhood place until afterdark, right, and come in in time
(17:48):
for the dinner table, whichmeant we sat around and we
looked at each other.
There were no devices.
I was raised without atelevision even.
That's a play-based childhood,right, where play is the
foundation for learning andexploring the world, versus
device-based or phone-basedchildhood.
(18:10):
And we're seeing this a lot fora lot of probably valid reasons,
right?
Little ones that go intonursery school and schools, you
know, elementary school aregiven iPads and devices to begin
their educational journeythrough stimulating programs and
things like that.
But at the same time, we'realso seeing additional device
(18:33):
use in the home, right as ababysitter, when parents are
cooking dinner or what have you.
And so what we've we've noticedin the clinical world is a lot
of like addiction to thosedevices.
It's become harder and harderto extract children and
adolescents away from the deviceright, and put boundaries in
(18:53):
place.
Jonathan Haidt contends thatthis very thing has led to the
mental health epidemic that wesee in adolescents right now.
So it's an interestingconversation.
I'm still reading his book andlooking at that research, but
we've got other markers thatshow again.
I'm not saying devices are bad.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I think there's something to it, though, where
it's like you know, having a sixmonth old that when I'm if the
TV's on, she's like glued to it.
So now we have to turn the TVoff a lot more, make sure she's
not.
You know, we don't give herscreen time or anything,
especially at six months, butit's so easy and almost natural
to say, oh, you want to look atwhat I'm looking at or you enjoy
(19:38):
this.
But the research is where mywife and I my wife's an
educational psychologist, soshe's really into the data as
well that we need to make surethat we don't have screen time
and we limit our TV watching soour daughter's not addicted or
impacted by, you know, all ofthese things that are so readily
(19:58):
available to us and it seemslike second nature.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Your daughter is so lucky to have you both as
parents and awareness of that,because, yeah, I think children
learn what they see and whatthey're around there.
And but here's the sciencebehind that and I think you know
this one because we talkedabout this in Dr Williams' class
.
Right, we've got this part ofour brain called our mirror
neuron system, so a mirror likelooking in the mirror neuron.
(20:23):
Right, those are the parts ofour brain.
We're born with 100 billion ofthem that wire and fire together
to help us learn and develop.
And so there's this system ofmirror neurons that gets
stimulated by interaction andlive eyeball to eyeball
connection.
Right, and they begindevelopment at birth.
(20:45):
So your little one, right whenthey came into the world and
started opening their eyes,could only see about this far
right, about 10 inches.
And so that mirror neuronsystem is stimulated early on
when the parent holds and coosback at the child and gives them
that direct interaction.
And then think about whathappens as little ones start to
(21:07):
toddle and move away.
This part of their brain isstill rapidly developing.
The mirror neuron system is thecenter for our development of
empathy.
So when this connection betweentwo humans gets disconnected or
interrupted by something like ascreen or a device or the
(21:27):
moving pixelation.
It's a fascinating piece thatgives the brain some dopamine
hits and we need more and wantmore and want more to stay
stimulated.
But it doesn't fire the mirrorneuron system.
So the interruption of ourability to connect with other
humans has us in a strugglelater on, notably adolescence,
(21:52):
that can affect who we become inadulthood too.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, and because I'm a little bit younger than you
not by much, but I know some ofmy peers where I've been around
them and they may be like gluedto their phone and if they're
not into that device it's almostlike they have a hard time
connecting with other people,and even like their family or
loved ones too.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, we know this one well, having studied only on
Zoom, and I do a ton of work onZoom and during the pandemic, I
mean, the only way we could seeand talk to people was on Zoom,
which kept us connected, but itdoesn't have the same impact on
our brain firing as it doeswhen we're in person.
There's something, there'ssomething about sensing right.
(22:40):
The other senses that we have,and notably our vagus nerve,
which is the 10th cranial nerve,touches every major organ in
our body and it is toned andstimulated by and it can feel
(23:01):
the energy of others.
So it's really vital right tohave that human to human
connection because we are wiredfor that when we come into the
world and it shapes how wesocially connect for the rest of
our lives.
So the interruption of a devicethat doesn't isn't boundaried.
(23:22):
Again, I love what you'rethinking about is how much time
the little one is looking at ascreen or watching you watch a
screen, because I'm not sayingscreens are bad, that's not the
conclusion.
The American Academy ofPediatrics has some
recommendations on this as well.
(23:43):
As far as the time limits forscreens.
As your children age, so intoddlerhood, of course, they're
saying screens aren't bad, butbe with the child and do
whatever they're doing on thescreen with them, and limit it
to like an hour a day.
So there's some recommendationsout there that contribute to
healthier development.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And I know even for myself.
On this topic of screens, Iremember when online class was a
thing, like when it was firstbeing introduced, and I would
always go for in-person, becauseI just felt like I learned
better, I would pay attentionmore.
It was just better for me.
And even our class even thoughit is, you know, on Zoom I made
(24:22):
sure I wanted some type ofcomponent where I could see the
professor and my peers, becauseat least now I get a chance to
meet you when you're taking iton.
If we didn't have thisin-person component or virtual
component, I wouldn't even knowyou would have this same
relationship.
Yeah, so we wouldn't meet in LA, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Right, right, right, right.
And again, this is connection.
It's just not as stimulating aconnection as in-person because
of how we are neurobiologicallywired for connection.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, so let's move how we are neurobiologically
wired for connection.
Yeah, so let's move you.
A lot of topics that I coverinclude self-esteem,
self-confidence.
How would you say that ourbrain development, or the
adolescent's brain development,is impacted, or how does that
impact their confidence level?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Gosh, this is such a great question because the
adolescent brain has remarkablecapacity.
I mean, think about all thatyou learned during your
adolescence.
And let me define adolescence.
So World Health Organizationdefines adolescence as ages 10
to 19.
However, that may expand nowthat neuroscience is informing
prefrontal cortex isn't fullymature until about age 25 or 26.
(25:31):
Neuroscience is informingprefrontal cortex isn't fully
mature until about age 25 or 26.
So when I say adolescence, I'mtalking about about age 10 or 12
, about the time puberty occurs,till 25 or 26.
So a larger time period.
So, if you think about all ofthe things you learn during that
(25:57):
time period, right, this iswhen we move into middle school
and high school.
We start specializing, takingelectives, we are picking up
sports, we're learning languages, we're gravitating towards peer
groups that have a much largerimpact on who we become than our
family of origin.
Right, because we're expandinginto the world and then we go on
to specialize at college,unless you're me and you get
(26:19):
stuck, right.
So it's this incredibleopportunity.
And the brain, meanwhile, is inits prefrontal cortex, is
maturing all through that time.
Why is that important to know?
This is the part of brainresponsible for risk taking,
vision making, problem solving.
(26:41):
And so because the part of thebrain that's responsible for
emotional reaction, the limbicsystem, has reached maturity by
about age 10.
That part of the brain, matureand conditioned by whatever
environmental cues came its wayin early childhood, this part of
(27:02):
the brain, prefrontal cortex,responsible for all those higher
order decision-making,emotional regulation, that's
still in maturity, right, it'sstill maturing.
It hasn't finished its job.
So this is why we see such adance, if you will, an
adolescence, between maybeacting out and behaving Right.
(27:25):
Think about like they'redriving cars but they're still
coming home and slamming doorsand throwing temper tantrums and
those sort of-.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
So this is a sidebar, I mean, because you you're
talking about the originalquestion, but it's the long way
there, no no, no, no, that's.
This is all great information,and it's good to put into
context too, because when youthink about somebody who's 18 or
even 21, and they're makingcertain decisions, sometimes
(27:53):
you're like you're an adult.
Why would you do that?
But when you think about thebrain development, this makes
sense for a lot of things, a lotof reasons.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, the paper I wrote in that class was based on
some research that happened inthe 2008, 2009 range.
If you want it for your shownotes, I can get it to you later
, but it really speaks of thisneurobiological model.
So adolescents have a maturelimbic system but a not yet
(28:23):
mature prefrontal cortex system.
So when they are in emotionallycharged or salient situations,
their brain is biased, defaultsto the emotional center of the
brain.
So this is why youth may knowbetter In fact, you might have
seen them do better 10 minutesbefore but because of the
(28:47):
salience, the emotional chargeof the situation, their brain is
just by default biased to anemotional reaction.
We ought to expect that, becausethat's how we're wired.
You who have had trauma inearly childhood will have an
even harder time regulating andreaching their higher ordered
(29:09):
brain because their limbicsystem that biases them in those
situations is actually enlarged.
The amygdala inside the limbicsystem is bigger than it's
supposed to be and it staysbigger for their life.
We see this in neuroimaging nowand better understand that not
every youth is going to be ableto get it together like the
(29:33):
adults around them want them to.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
You know that makes me think about the people that
we see on TV, the athletes, theentertainers, the celebrities,
and when they make certaindecisions.
So I'm a basketball fan andright now what's happening in
the NBA?
Certain players are beinglooked at closer because of
their decisions with certainwomen and having children and
(29:56):
they're like well, why would youdo this?
Why would you have all thesekids at 21 and you don't want to
be a father, but you're stillhaving unprotected sex.
But this kind of it doesn'texcuse the behavior, but it does
explain things, especially whenthey've come from really
challenging upbringings and hadjust traumatic things happen to
them.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, jason, what a great example right of how,
first of all how judgy we are.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Right, when we're watching these situations, I was
judgy of my own life, buteveryone around, too, was like
how could she accomplish so muchhere but make such bad
decisions here?
And that's what you're speakingof, right.
They're professional athletes,they're incredibly gifted, they
know they're being seen by theworld and those are the choices
(30:45):
they're making.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So, yes, those are the choices they're making.
Those are the choices that, forwhatever reasons but part of
the reason is where they're atin their neurobiological
development.
Really kind of reflecting onthe question should we treat
juvenile offenders under adultterms when they commit some of
those harsh crimes, knowing whatwe know about brain development
(31:26):
?
Her research shows that themajority of youth who offend in
adolescence don't offend oncetheir brains are mature.
So there's natural progressionthat gives us greater capacity
for making better decisions.
Our prefrontal cortex right hasa lot more power to be in
(31:49):
charge of those decisions as weage, because it's maturing.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
That's good to know as well.
So I want to ask this, as we'retalking about trauma and
confidence how, in your ownexperience, personal and
professional, how would you saythat the trauma someone endures
impacts their long-termconfidence?
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yes, so trauma is an individualized thing, first of
all it's so I think we'relimited if we just kind of
generalize it.
So trauma is, of course, is thestuckness that happens in our
nervous system because of thingsthat come our way, or the lack
of things that we need, that wedon't get right, and so that
(32:33):
absolutely limits a person'scapacity to move into the world
and to do so with an open heartand open mind.
Because trauma keeps us stuck inrigidity, it keeps us
constricted, it keeps us hidingand not opening, it literally
limits our brain's capacity forlearning, it literally limits
(32:56):
our brain's capacity forlearning.
And so if we are moving intospaces where we're being asked
and demanded of to do what ourpeers are doing, to measure up,
to accomplish, to achieve, thenthat trauma is going to keep us
from having not only theconfidence but the capability,
(33:19):
keep us from having not only theconfidence but the capability.
And then, if there's shameadded to that right, when an
adolescent chooses not toperform or enter the ring or
whatever it is, or they make thedecisions that some of the
basketball players are makingand that I made right, then you
face the harsh judgment, thefinger pointing, the
stigmatizing that further keepsus stuck.
(33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So now, because there's parents and teachers,
educators who are listening,they're working with adolescents
.
What are some tips orstrategies you would give them
to manage or not well, notmanage, but to help the
adolescent, Like if they have ateenager or a young adult who's
struggling with decisions.
What would you say to them?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
First of all, better understanding that there's
always a reason for the behavior.
So all the behaviors thatfrustrate us, that we see as
adults in the youth that we'reraising or serving, right Back
away from what's wrong with you,question and start asking I
wonder what happened or ishappening inside of you right
(34:28):
now that that's what you'reshowing up with.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
So that's my first just I love that build your own
self-awareness a lot of times welook to like judge them or say
well, you know better, I raisedyou better, or I didn't do this,
so why are you, why are youdoing that?
And I think that type oflanguage can really be hurtful
and further push them awayabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
In fact, that's what we call invalidation.
So, and children and youth whogrow up in invalidating
environments by, particularly bythe people that are there to
love them, nurture them and carefor them and a lot of us, as
parents, say those thingswell-intentioned, but what we're
doing is we are absolutelyinvalidating our youth.
(35:15):
But what we're doing is we areabsolutely invalidating our
youth.
So what we're saying is thattheir feelings and thoughts are
not okay and what theyinternalize is shame.
I'm not okay.
And so if I carry that inside ofme, jason, and try to move into
the world, but I believe nowthat I'm not okay, right, I'm
(35:37):
not going to have confidence totry anything or move into
another sphere of people.
I'm not going to stand up andgive a speech, right?
So parents have so much powerhere in re parents and other,
support people in reshaping yourlanguage with your youth so
that you are validating.
(35:58):
So validation is not approvalof behaviors, it's not what it
is.
Validation is approval offeelings and thoughts, right?
So it's saying gosh, given whathappened at school today, it
makes sense right now that youare upset and you're throwing.
You know you're throwing theslamming the door shut, but what
(36:19):
I didn't say is it's okay thatyou slam the door?
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Right, right, there's a difference.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
The big difference, because what a child hears or
youth hears, then is it's okayto feel what I'm feeling,
because that nervous system isgoing to feel what it's feeling,
whether you let them feel it ornot.
If a parent does not allow andcreate the space for that, those
feelings are going to getrepressed and everything we
repress eventually comes outugly and then that ugliness will
(36:48):
spew forth and then the parent,or the person that's the adult,
is going to further shame andblame them for the behavior that
they inspired through aninvalidating environment.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
After they create the space, after they validate.
Is there anything else youwould suggest recommend?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, I love this, what we call the five C's model.
This comes from our work inbehavior management in both
child welfare and juvenileprobation.
So in the five C's model we'vegot five words that start with C
Competence as the ability andskill to deal with challenges,
confidence, which you're talkingabout, and focus on this
(37:26):
positive belief in one's ownworth and efficacy.
Thirdly, connection, so thepower of one positive
relationship can last a lifetime.
I mean, I think if you thinkback, I think back to our
teenage years we can probablyclose our eyes and think of at
least one person that helpedshape who we are today in a
(37:48):
positive way.
So the power of mentoring andconnection and having at least
one validating adult is reallypowerful and necessary.
The fourth C is character right.
So these standards of behaviorthat promote social functioning
in societies we can example,role model, good character right
(38:10):
and therefore pass thosepossibilities on to our youth.
So let's not tell them, do as Isay, not as I do.
Let's show them how we wantthem to grow in this world.
And then fifthly is caring, orcompassion, because adolescents
have a huge capacity for thisand I think this generation
(38:30):
particularly is desperate anddesires to feel in a way that
previous generations maybedidn't because it wasn't in our
vernacular like it is now.
Going to therapy is morenormalized.
Asking for help and strugglingand having a diagnosis is a
(38:50):
little bit more normative now,or allowable now.
So when we look at these fiveC's, ask yourself how can I help
a youth with one of those?
Because that's what's beingshaped during adolescence.
Can you recap?
Speaker 1 (39:05):
the five Okay, confidence.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Confidence, competence, right.
So how can you move youth intosomething that they're
passionate about or good at,create more spaces for?
I don't know, if they like tobeat a drum, how about a drum
lesson, instead of stymieingthem or limiting them?
Connection, so the power ofpersonal connection, not social
(39:28):
media.
Connection, character andcompassion, I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I love it.
Lisa, this was an amazinginterview, one of the best, I
think.
Yeah, is there anything that Idid not ask you, that you think
that people should know, eitherabout yourself or about the work
that you do?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
because I just think it matters so much.
Our words are powerful and thewords we use to describe youth,
no matter their age, can againpush people away or create
(40:05):
inviting spaces.
So I talked about theperson-first language, using a
person-first language indescribing, and so many of our
youth are getting diagnosed,younger and younger, with things
like ADHD or bipolar disorder,oppositional, whatever right we
have all these names.
They're labels, they're just.
They're just pathways to help.
(40:27):
But when we call people bytheir diagnosis or we call them
the problem they're strugglingwith, we're really setting them
up for more struggle and we areactually moving away from them
and pushing them away from us.
So instead of calling somebodya bipolar, this is a person
(40:49):
who's been diagnosed and isstruggling with bipolar disorder
.
Feels like it's not a bigdifference.
It's a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
And I think that's where we connect.
That's a big trauma-informedapproach for sure.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah, yeah.
So our youth that have offended.
We don't want to call themoffenders or juveniles, foster
youth.
No, this is a human being who'shappened to move through the
foster care system.
Because youth internalize theselabels profoundly.
(41:23):
Adolescence is a time of reallyidentifying who I am.
Who do I want to be in theworld, and when other people
tell us who we are, Other peopletell us who we are.
That limits us and keeps usstuck.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
I love it.
Lisa, where can one thank youagain for just sharing so much
of your wisdom, so much of yourpersonal experiences?
Where can people find you book,you connect with you, all of
that?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Thank you for asking, so my website is my first and
middle name, lisa L-A-S-A,mayaka M-A-A-C-Acom, and that's
the source of all things thework that we're doing, as well
as how you could book me for akeynote or a workshop or a
podcast conversation like this.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Awesome, and I'll put that all in the show notes as
well.
Lisa, thank you so much, andthank you all for listening to
another episode of the Peace andProsperity Podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Thanks, Jason.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Thank you all for listening to another episode of
the Peace and Prosperity Podcast.
Again, if you are feeling like,hey, I'm experiencing high
functioning anxiety, are feelinglike, hey, I'm experiencing
high functioning anxiety, don'tbeat yourself up about it.
It is okay.
We all experience anxiety fromtime to time and I gave you a
couple of things that you can doon your own, but don't hesitate
(42:48):
to reach out to a professionalto better manage what you're
going through.
Okay, and lastly, make sure, ifyou have not like share,
subscribe to the podcast andsend this out to a friend.
And if you want to hear certainepisodes or have certain
conversations, let me know.
(43:08):
You can shoot me a DM or justleave a review and I will
definitely follow up.
All right, y'all.
Be blessed, peace.
All right well, welcome to another episode of
the Peace and Prosperity Podcast.
I'm joined with one of mycolleagues.
Actually, we met in thedoctoral social work program.
Lisa, super glad to have you.
Thank you for being here.
Do you want to introduceyourself?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I really appreciate the invitation.
This is, I think, the thirdtime.
Well, we've met in person onceyou happen to be out here in LA
but we met repeatedly on Zoomcalls for the program and during
that program got to know eachother a little bit.
So I'm just really excited tobe here, lisa Mayock-Bartlett,
coming to you from SouthernCalifornia, orange County
(00:44):
specifically.
But I am a Midwestern girl,born and raised Ohio, notably,
and Minnesota, and so I call anera of my life that began in
adolescence trauma drama.
That was me, mama, fivechildren by the age of 26.
And that piece of my life hasso shaped who I've become and
(01:08):
what I've done in my life and mywork.
So social work was not on thetrajectory for me.
I didn't get around to mymaster's work until age 42.
And when I did, I accepted afull scholarship at Case Western
Reserve University in Cleveland, ohio.
It just happened to be insocial sciences, so I had like
Googled what can you do withthat degree?
(01:29):
And there was all kinds ofpossibilities which worked well
for me.
So, yeah, I then got kind ofbaptized by fire I call it into
child welfare public governmentagency work in in Ohio.
So that was in 2016, when Igraduated with my master's and I
continued child welfare socialwork practice in Ohio or in
(01:51):
California.
I've been in California now forseven and a half years,
practiced in two counties hereand then, like a lot of people
in the world, resigned myposition in 2020 to go back to
school.
So, before we met, I began PhDwork at Claremont Graduate
University here in Los AngelesCounty, and that was under kind
(02:12):
of the program of positiveorganizational development and I
thought that I wanted toconduct research.
Turns out, not at all.
I love research, like you do.
Right, we love studying andreading what the sciences are
saying, but I am more of anapplied practitioner.
I distill the stories that cometo us from science and from
(02:36):
people right, distilling thestories of shared experiences
and translate those to audiencesso they can understand what the
science is saying, right topeople who aren't scientists and
aren't neuroscience researchnerds like I am.
In 2021, I started my company,lisa Miyaka Inc.
And we exist to transformtrauma, first in our own lives
(03:00):
and then in the lives of others.
Yeah, so I've worked now formyself for several years and
built an organization thatprovides workforce training
right now all over California tojuvenile probation officers and
staff, as well as child welfare, social work practitioners and
leadership and agencies.
(03:21):
So that's kind of right now thebulk of my work.
I do some keynote speeches,workshops and things like that,
and a TED Talk in 2024.
Yes, thank you for mentioningthat the power of putting people
first.
So really my work, like yours,is all on resolving and healing
(03:44):
traumatic experiences.
I do most of that now at themezzo and the macro level, not
in direct practice.
One-on-one Can you break?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
that down a little bit and then we'll go back to so
, because a lot of thepractitioners I've had on the
podcast have been moreone-on-one doing micro work.
Can you explain the mezzo andmacro, what that looks like?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, absolutely so.
My master's was in directpractice.
That's where the scholarshipopportunity was, so I took it,
even though my mind works at themacro level.
So that's kind of the larger,like organizational level right,
looking at big issues from thelarge perspective.
(04:27):
So whether that be agency,state, federal right, or looking
at issues that affect an entirepopulation, those are that's
like macro.
Mezzo is between macro andmicro.
It's this kind of the grouplevel and that's kind of where I
spend most of my time.
(04:47):
I train groups, cohorts, newstaff or existing staff on kind
of the 30 to 50 people in theaudience range.
I also facilitate groupconversations and connection
circles with groups.
So that's what mezzo is right,kind of this in-between that has
(05:08):
so much effect on the directpractice, the one-on-one, but
it's directed by the macropolicies right, and the leaders
that shape our opportunities todo direct practice or mezzo
practice.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Very helpful, very helpful Funny story.
Once, this was years ago, I wasa friend of mine.
She said basically I should bedoing macro level work and the
micro didn't matter.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Interesting.
How did you take that?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I was offended.
Yeah, I mean I was highlyoffended, especially that was
like 15 years ago, so I'm moreappreciative of all spaces and
what we do.
But I want to highlight you andgo back a little bit, because
you said you had five kids by 26.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yes, want to know the story leading up to that.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Sure go ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Well, I've been an academic I think, since the day
I was born.
I came into this world kind ofwired for curiosity.
I was a very high achiever allthrough elementary and high
school, graduated top of myclass.
I had almost what do you callit a photographic memory.
So part of my brain workedreally really well, very fast
processing speed and all of that.
(06:21):
So I was on the trajectory ofHarvard, actually accepted there
I was.
I had full scholarships to afew other notable universities
and two weeks after giving myvaledictory speech to a crowded
Christian school auditorium, Iwas pregnant.
So to solve the problem thatwas Lisa.
(06:43):
My family planned my weddingand by fall of that year I
married a father of that one andthen he became the father of
all five of my children.
And, yeah, I just had children,had children, had children and
got really stuck Right, which iswhat trauma does it's in fact,
I think it's Britt Frank,another clinician does it's, in
(07:05):
fact, I think it's Britt Frank,another clinician.
She calls trauma the science ofstuck.
So there were parts of my brainthat had tremendous capacity,
but there were other parts of meright neurobiologically that
had some stuckness from sexualabuse in childhood, sexual abuse
in childhood and so until goingto school with you and my
(07:26):
master's work, my life didn'tmake a lot of sense to a lot of
people watching me, observersright and to myself.
So this has been this beautifulunfolding of an understanding
of who I am, why I made some ofthe choices I made.
It helps me frame thosestruggles and really give myself
(07:50):
a lot of grace and forgivenessfor the parenting that I did
before I was ready and all ofthat so interestingly, now fast
forward.
I, of course, got into the workof child welfare and began to
study brain development and theneurobiology of trauma, which
has led me to create trainingsand have lots of conversations
(08:12):
about that.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
So you probably loved our first class where we
studied the neurobiology oftrauma.
That was probably like sofascinating for you.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
So fascinating, and I think that was the.
Are you talking about DrJennifer Williams course?
Oh, that was the.
Are you talking about DrJennifer Williams course?
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Oh, that was our second class.
The first two stand out for me.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, and I honed very quickly in on adolescent
brain development.
Something in that class sparkedmore curiosity.
I also had just accepted arequest to write curriculum for
juvenile probation here inSouthern California and I was
like I want to teach aboutadolescent brain development.
(08:51):
The more we understand theamazing capacity of the
adolescent brain, but also thestruggles right that adolescents
have in bouncing between theirchildhood selves and their
adolescent selves justfascinated me and again I had
some of my own internalawakening as well as have been
(09:12):
able to now help those who helpadolescents better navigate how
to do that.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So we're going to get into the work that you do for
sure, but I want to ask thisquestion because I think it will
help a lot of people how didyou get unstuck when you said I
mean you've made some bigdecisions.
What was that like?
How did you come to get unstuck?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Well, I think healing is lifelong.
So let me just say that some ofus we stay stuck or we get a
little unstuck, and my stucknessjust had me.
It had me unable to thinkoutside of the crisis or the
moment, or raising these kids.
I just lost hope that I wouldmove on in life and accomplish
(09:58):
anything else, and so really, itwas another kind of tragedy
that helped me get unstuck, andso I stayed married for 20 years
to the father of my children,but we eventually divorced, and
in that divorce I had fiveteenagers at the time, and so,
recognizing the impact andnavigating us through that, I
(10:22):
realized I've been, I'm stuck atthe age that they are, and so I
was motivated to just live mylife right.
To just live my life, whichmeant going back to school,
which felt very, very scary,very, very scary.
At 37 years of age, I went tocollege.
(10:46):
The same year, my oldestdaughter went to college, and I
spent weekends in anon-traditional program.
I'd go to class Friday nightfrom 6 to 10 pm.
I'd get up and do class 8 to 4on Saturday every other weekend,
and those happened to be theweekends I didn't have parenting
responsibilities.
Post-divorce, those happened tobe the weekends I didn't have
(11:06):
parenting responsibilitiespost-divorce.
I stayed in a little dorm in atiny little Northeastern Ohio
college.
And I was like the oldest ladyin the room.
So you were like a differentworld.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
The TV show.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I mean, I was shaken in my boots, I felt a lot of
imposter syndrome, inadequacy,inferiority and like.
What the hell are you thinking,lisa?
Like who does this?
Who goes back to school at thisage?
What helped you get?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
through that, because that is a lot I mean to go back
to school to start from.
So you're saying at 37, that'swhen you started your bachelor's
career, bachelor's degree.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, and it took me five years going to school every
other weekend.
I had a daughter and a songraduate college while I was in
college and I had a daughterthat had moved from my home in
Cleveland to Denver so I wasflying back and forth to see her
and then I got this opportunityto do master's work after that.
(12:12):
So along the way, there areshining lights, there are
glimmers of in the form ofpeople, a couple professors that
looked at me and saw my lightand my gift and just gave me the
support, cheerleading, offeringto meet outside of class and
(12:33):
connect the assignments to, youknow, my real life that I'm just
trying to figure out.
So again, I think just findingmyself back into a childhood
dream, right or notion, findingthe academic again helped me get
, I guess, unstuck and open tomore possibilities.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, that's huge.
I didn't know that about youand your college career.
I mean, this is awesome becauseI know so many people.
I'm 40.
So a lot of my peers are aroundthe age you were when you were
just going to get your master's.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Just starting.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Just starting too.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Just starting and that again I was like there was
also this.
I mean I'm sure you rememberyou're 19 and 20 and 21 and 22.
21 and 22, like for traditionalfolks that get to go to college
or party and do all thosethings Like I couldn't and
didn't.
I had all these children and soI was forced to kind of grow up
(13:34):
that way.
But there were parts of me thathad moved through that time of
exploration and so I did that inmy early forties, which maybe
doesn't look as good on a 40year old as it did on a 15 year
old, but that's how we getunstuck, we move through those
phases that we were stuck inbefore.
(13:55):
And so again, support ofprofessors, individuals that
kept seeing my light and shininga light on it, non-judgmental
friends.
I met several of them in theprocess of going through school,
a few others that were midlifeattendees, and I took some risks
At Hiram College, which iswhere I got my bachelor's degree
(14:17):
.
They had an idea competition andsince my minor was
entrepreneurial studies, Ientered this idea competition
with a whole bunch oftraditional students that had
like really great ideas formaking money and, you know,
putting business things outthere in the world.
I had an idea to save theorphans in Ukraine, where I had
(14:41):
visited in 2006 and 2008.
Ukraine, where I had visited in2006 and 2008.
And so I pitched this idea fora nonprofit organization to
intervene on behalf ofgraduating seniors in Ukraine,
because there's nothing for themafter that.
So again, I picked a populationright that was the same age as
(15:02):
I was when I got stuck and I wonthe competition and went on and
won the next level of thecompetition and got $5,000 in my
pocket and so I started anorganization and I just really
started believing in myself.
I'm like, well, if my messageresounds with other people, then
so those plans helped.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
They helped you grow your own confidence.
So has this led you to studyand become really interested in
adolescent brain development?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I think less about brain development until we had
that class together at thedoctoral level, but more about
what interventions can servethis very, very, very vulnerable
population.
So I think there's two times inchildhood that are extremely
vulnerable and necessary forcertain types of environmental
(15:56):
conditions, notably zero tothree.
And then this adolescent timewhere society has this age of
emancipation at 18, thisexpectation that you're ready to
go into the world.
Right, you can.
I don't know.
What can you do at 18?
Smoke, cigarettes?
Yeah, all those things yeah,tattoo yeah, but are you really
(16:22):
ready?
Right?
I think it's actually a timewhere you need as much support
as possible in a different wayand now that I know the
neuroscience, I get it becausepart of our brains are rapidly
maturing during adolescence, butdon't reach maturity until
about age 25 or 26.
And what do you?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
think that you know, given today's age, especially
with social media being such abig role in our lives, what do
you think, how do you think,that impacts with our brain
development and maturation level?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
It's such a great question and I want to be clear.
I'm not a neuroscientist but Ido, of course, read a lot, a lot
, and I'll actually.
I have one book right here I'llmake mention of, because you
asked the question thisGeneration, by Jonathan Haidt,
how the great rewiring ofchildhood is causing an epidemic
of mental illness.
So he posits that the wiring iswhat's happened when we have
(17:24):
moved away from a play basedchildhood into a phone based
childhood and so this is a bit.
So I don't know about you alittle bit.
So I don't know about you.
I'm a little bit older than you, a lot older, but my childhood
consisted of being sent outdoorsto run amok with the
neighborhood place until afterdark, right, and come in in time
(17:48):
for the dinner table, whichmeant we sat around and we
looked at each other.
There were no devices.
I was raised without atelevision even.
That's a play-based childhood,right, where play is the
foundation for learning andexploring the world, versus
device-based or phone-basedchildhood.
(18:10):
And we're seeing this a lot fora lot of probably valid reasons,
right?
Little ones that go intonursery school and schools, you
know, elementary school aregiven iPads and devices to begin
their educational journeythrough stimulating programs and
things like that.
But at the same time, we'realso seeing additional device
(18:33):
use in the home, right as ababysitter, when parents are
cooking dinner or what have you.
And so what we've we've noticedin the clinical world is a lot
of like addiction to thosedevices.
It's become harder and harderto extract children and
adolescents away from the deviceright, and put boundaries in
(18:53):
place.
Jonathan Haidt contends thatthis very thing has led to the
mental health epidemic that wesee in adolescents right now.
So it's an interestingconversation.
I'm still reading his book andlooking at that research, but
we've got other markers thatshow again.
I'm not saying devices are bad.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I think there's something to it, though, where
it's like you know, having a sixmonth old that when I'm if the
TV's on, she's like glued to it.
So now we have to turn the TVoff a lot more, make sure she's
not.
You know, we don't give herscreen time or anything,
especially at six months, butit's so easy and almost natural
to say, oh, you want to look atwhat I'm looking at or you enjoy
(19:38):
this.
But the research is where mywife and I my wife's an
educational psychologist, soshe's really into the data as
well that we need to make surethat we don't have screen time
and we limit our TV watching soour daughter's not addicted or
impacted by, you know, all ofthese things that are so readily
(19:58):
available to us and it seemslike second nature.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Your daughter is so lucky to have you both as
parents and awareness of that,because, yeah, I think children
learn what they see and whatthey're around there.
And but here's the sciencebehind that and I think you know
this one because we talkedabout this in Dr Williams' class
.
Right, we've got this part ofour brain called our mirror
neuron system, so a mirror likelooking in the mirror neuron.
(20:23):
Right, those are the parts ofour brain.
We're born with 100 billion ofthem that wire and fire together
to help us learn and develop.
And so there's this system ofmirror neurons that gets
stimulated by interaction andlive eyeball to eyeball
connection.
Right, and they begindevelopment at birth.
(20:45):
So your little one, right whenthey came into the world and
started opening their eyes,could only see about this far
right, about 10 inches.
And so that mirror neuronsystem is stimulated early on
when the parent holds and coosback at the child and gives them
that direct interaction.
And then think about whathappens as little ones start to
(21:07):
toddle and move away.
This part of their brain isstill rapidly developing.
The mirror neuron system is thecenter for our development of
empathy.
So when this connection betweentwo humans gets disconnected or
interrupted by something like ascreen or a device or the
(21:27):
moving pixelation.
It's a fascinating piece thatgives the brain some dopamine
hits and we need more and wantmore and want more to stay
stimulated.
But it doesn't fire the mirrorneuron system.
So the interruption of ourability to connect with other
humans has us in a strugglelater on, notably adolescence,
(21:52):
that can affect who we become inadulthood too.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, and because I'm a little bit younger than you
not by much, but I know some ofmy peers where I've been around
them and they may be like gluedto their phone and if they're
not into that device it's almostlike they have a hard time
connecting with other people,and even like their family or
loved ones too.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, we know this one well, having studied only on
Zoom, and I do a ton of work onZoom and during the pandemic, I
mean, the only way we could seeand talk to people was on Zoom,
which kept us connected, but itdoesn't have the same impact on
our brain firing as it doeswhen we're in person.
There's something, there'ssomething about sensing right.
(22:40):
The other senses that we have,and notably our vagus nerve,
which is the 10th cranial nerve,touches every major organ in
our body and it is toned andstimulated by and it can feel
(23:01):
the energy of others.
So it's really vital right tohave that human to human
connection because we are wiredfor that when we come into the
world and it shapes how wesocially connect for the rest of
our lives.
So the interruption of a devicethat doesn't isn't boundaried.
(23:22):
Again, I love what you'rethinking about is how much time
the little one is looking at ascreen or watching you watch a
screen, because I'm not sayingscreens are bad, that's not the
conclusion.
The American Academy ofPediatrics has some
recommendations on this as well.
(23:43):
As far as the time limits forscreens.
As your children age, so intoddlerhood, of course, they're
saying screens aren't bad, butbe with the child and do
whatever they're doing on thescreen with them, and limit it
to like an hour a day.
So there's some recommendationsout there that contribute to
healthier development.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And I know even for myself.
On this topic of screens, Iremember when online class was a
thing, like when it was firstbeing introduced, and I would
always go for in-person, becauseI just felt like I learned
better, I would pay attentionmore.
It was just better for me.
And even our class even thoughit is, you know, on Zoom I made
(24:22):
sure I wanted some type ofcomponent where I could see the
professor and my peers, becauseat least now I get a chance to
meet you when you're taking iton.
If we didn't have thisin-person component or virtual
component, I wouldn't even knowyou would have this same
relationship.
Yeah, so we wouldn't meet in LA, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Right, right, right, right.
And again, this is connection.
It's just not as stimulating aconnection as in-person because
of how we are neurobiologicallywired for connection.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, so let's move how we are neurobiologically
wired for connection.
Yeah, so let's move you.
A lot of topics that I coverinclude self-esteem,
self-confidence.
How would you say that ourbrain development, or the
adolescent's brain development,is impacted, or how does that
impact their confidence level?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Gosh, this is such a great question because the
adolescent brain has remarkablecapacity.
I mean, think about all thatyou learned during your
adolescence.
And let me define adolescence.
So World Health Organizationdefines adolescence as ages 10
to 19.
However, that may expand nowthat neuroscience is informing
prefrontal cortex isn't fullymature until about age 25 or 26.
(25:31):
Neuroscience is informingprefrontal cortex isn't fully
mature until about age 25 or 26.
So when I say adolescence, I'mtalking about about age 10 or 12
, about the time puberty occurs,till 25 or 26.
So a larger time period.
So, if you think about all ofthe things you learn during that
(25:57):
time period, right, this iswhen we move into middle school
and high school.
We start specializing, takingelectives, we are picking up
sports, we're learning languages, we're gravitating towards peer
groups that have a much largerimpact on who we become than our
family of origin.
Right, because we're expandinginto the world and then we go on
to specialize at college,unless you're me and you get
(26:19):
stuck, right.
So it's this incredibleopportunity.
And the brain, meanwhile, is inits prefrontal cortex, is
maturing all through that time.
Why is that important to know?
This is the part of brainresponsible for risk taking,
vision making, problem solving.
(26:41):
And so because the part of thebrain that's responsible for
emotional reaction, the limbicsystem, has reached maturity by
about age 10.
That part of the brain, matureand conditioned by whatever
environmental cues came its wayin early childhood, this part of
(27:02):
the brain, prefrontal cortex,responsible for all those higher
order decision-making,emotional regulation, that's
still in maturity, right, it'sstill maturing.
It hasn't finished its job.
So this is why we see such adance, if you will, an
adolescence, between maybeacting out and behaving Right.
(27:25):
Think about like they'redriving cars but they're still
coming home and slamming doorsand throwing temper tantrums and
those sort of-.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
So this is a sidebar, I mean, because you you're
talking about the originalquestion, but it's the long way
there, no no, no, no, that's.
This is all great information,and it's good to put into
context too, because when youthink about somebody who's 18 or
even 21, and they're makingcertain decisions, sometimes
(27:53):
you're like you're an adult.
Why would you do that?
But when you think about thebrain development, this makes
sense for a lot of things, a lotof reasons.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, the paper I wrote in that class was based on
some research that happened inthe 2008, 2009 range.
If you want it for your shownotes, I can get it to you later
, but it really speaks of thisneurobiological model.
So adolescents have a maturelimbic system but a not yet
(28:23):
mature prefrontal cortex system.
So when they are in emotionallycharged or salient situations,
their brain is biased, defaultsto the emotional center of the
brain.
So this is why youth may knowbetter In fact, you might have
seen them do better 10 minutesbefore but because of the
(28:47):
salience, the emotional chargeof the situation, their brain is
just by default biased to anemotional reaction.
We ought to expect that, becausethat's how we're wired.
You who have had trauma inearly childhood will have an
even harder time regulating andreaching their higher ordered
(29:09):
brain because their limbicsystem that biases them in those
situations is actually enlarged.
The amygdala inside the limbicsystem is bigger than it's
supposed to be and it staysbigger for their life.
We see this in neuroimaging nowand better understand that not
every youth is going to be ableto get it together like the
(29:33):
adults around them want them to.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
You know that makes me think about the people that
we see on TV, the athletes, theentertainers, the celebrities,
and when they make certaindecisions.
So I'm a basketball fan andright now what's happening in
the NBA?
Certain players are beinglooked at closer because of
their decisions with certainwomen and having children and
(29:56):
they're like well, why would youdo this?
Why would you have all thesekids at 21 and you don't want to
be a father, but you're stillhaving unprotected sex.
But this kind of it doesn'texcuse the behavior, but it does
explain things, especially whenthey've come from really
challenging upbringings and hadjust traumatic things happen to
them.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, jason, what a great example right of how,
first of all how judgy we are.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Right, when we're watching these situations, I was
judgy of my own life, buteveryone around, too, was like
how could she accomplish so muchhere but make such bad
decisions here?
And that's what you're speakingof, right.
They're professional athletes,they're incredibly gifted, they
know they're being seen by theworld and those are the choices
(30:45):
they're making.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So, yes, those are the choices they're making.
Those are the choices that, forwhatever reasons but part of
the reason is where they're atin their neurobiological
development.
Really kind of reflecting onthe question should we treat
juvenile offenders under adultterms when they commit some of
those harsh crimes, knowing whatwe know about brain development
(31:26):
?
Her research shows that themajority of youth who offend in
adolescence don't offend oncetheir brains are mature.
So there's natural progressionthat gives us greater capacity
for making better decisions.
Our prefrontal cortex right hasa lot more power to be in
(31:49):
charge of those decisions as weage, because it's maturing.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
That's good to know as well.
So I want to ask this, as we'retalking about trauma and
confidence how, in your ownexperience, personal and
professional, how would you saythat the trauma someone endures
impacts their long-termconfidence?
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yes, so trauma is an individualized thing, first of
all it's so I think we'relimited if we just kind of
generalize it.
So trauma is, of course, is thestuckness that happens in our
nervous system because of thingsthat come our way, or the lack
of things that we need, that wedon't get right, and so that
(32:33):
absolutely limits a person'scapacity to move into the world
and to do so with an open heartand open mind.
Because trauma keeps us stuck inrigidity, it keeps us
constricted, it keeps us hidingand not opening, it literally
limits our brain's capacity forlearning, it literally limits
(32:56):
our brain's capacity forlearning.
And so if we are moving intospaces where we're being asked
and demanded of to do what ourpeers are doing, to measure up,
to accomplish, to achieve, thenthat trauma is going to keep us
from having not only theconfidence but the capability,
(33:19):
keep us from having not only theconfidence but the capability.
And then, if there's shameadded to that right, when an
adolescent chooses not toperform or enter the ring or
whatever it is, or they make thedecisions that some of the
basketball players are makingand that I made right, then you
face the harsh judgment, thefinger pointing, the
stigmatizing that further keepsus stuck.
(33:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
So now, because there's parents and teachers,
educators who are listening,they're working with adolescents
.
What are some tips orstrategies you would give them
to manage or not well, notmanage, but to help the
adolescent, Like if they have ateenager or a young adult who's
struggling with decisions.
What would you say to them?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
First of all, better understanding that there's
always a reason for the behavior.
So all the behaviors thatfrustrate us, that we see as
adults in the youth that we'reraising or serving, right Back
away from what's wrong with you,question and start asking I
wonder what happened or ishappening inside of you right
(34:28):
now that that's what you'reshowing up with.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
So that's my first just I love that build your own
self-awareness a lot of times welook to like judge them or say
well, you know better, I raisedyou better, or I didn't do this,
so why are you, why are youdoing that?
And I think that type oflanguage can really be hurtful
and further push them awayabsolutely.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
In fact, that's what we call invalidation.
So, and children and youth whogrow up in invalidating
environments by, particularly bythe people that are there to
love them, nurture them and carefor them and a lot of us, as
parents, say those thingswell-intentioned, but what we're
doing is we are absolutelyinvalidating our youth.
(35:15):
But what we're doing is we areabsolutely invalidating our
youth.
So what we're saying is thattheir feelings and thoughts are
not okay and what theyinternalize is shame.
I'm not okay.
And so if I carry that inside ofme, jason, and try to move into
the world, but I believe nowthat I'm not okay, right, I'm
(35:37):
not going to have confidence totry anything or move into
another sphere of people.
I'm not going to stand up andgive a speech, right?
So parents have so much powerhere in re parents and other,
support people in reshaping yourlanguage with your youth so
that you are validating.
(35:58):
So validation is not approvalof behaviors, it's not what it
is.
Validation is approval offeelings and thoughts, right?
So it's saying gosh, given whathappened at school today, it
makes sense right now that youare upset and you're throwing.
You know you're throwing theslamming the door shut, but what
(36:19):
I didn't say is it's okay thatyou slam the door?
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Right, right, there's a difference.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
The big difference, because what a child hears or
youth hears, then is it's okayto feel what I'm feeling,
because that nervous system isgoing to feel what it's feeling,
whether you let them feel it ornot.
If a parent does not allow andcreate the space for that, those
feelings are going to getrepressed and everything we
repress eventually comes outugly and then that ugliness will
(36:48):
spew forth and then the parent,or the person that's the adult,
is going to further shame andblame them for the behavior that
they inspired through aninvalidating environment.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
After they create the space, after they validate.
Is there anything else youwould suggest recommend?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, I love this, what we call the five C's model.
This comes from our work inbehavior management in both
child welfare and juvenileprobation.
So in the five C's model we'vegot five words that start with C
Competence as the ability andskill to deal with challenges,
confidence, which you're talkingabout, and focus on this
(37:26):
positive belief in one's ownworth and efficacy.
Thirdly, connection, so thepower of one positive
relationship can last a lifetime.
I mean, I think if you thinkback, I think back to our
teenage years we can probablyclose our eyes and think of at
least one person that helpedshape who we are today in a
(37:48):
positive way.
So the power of mentoring andconnection and having at least
one validating adult is reallypowerful and necessary.
The fourth C is character right.
So these standards of behaviorthat promote social functioning
in societies we can example,role model, good character right
(38:10):
and therefore pass thosepossibilities on to our youth.
So let's not tell them, do as Isay, not as I do.
Let's show them how we wantthem to grow in this world.
And then fifthly is caring, orcompassion, because adolescents
have a huge capacity for thisand I think this generation
(38:30):
particularly is desperate anddesires to feel in a way that
previous generations maybedidn't because it wasn't in our
vernacular like it is now.
Going to therapy is morenormalized.
Asking for help and strugglingand having a diagnosis is a
(38:50):
little bit more normative now,or allowable now.
So when we look at these fiveC's, ask yourself how can I help
a youth with one of those?
Because that's what's beingshaped during adolescence.
Can you recap?
Speaker 1 (39:05):
the five Okay, confidence.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Confidence, competence, right.
So how can you move youth intosomething that they're
passionate about or good at,create more spaces for?
I don't know, if they like tobeat a drum, how about a drum
lesson, instead of stymieingthem or limiting them?
Connection, so the power ofpersonal connection, not social
(39:28):
media.
Connection, character andcompassion, I love it.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I love it.
Lisa, this was an amazinginterview, one of the best, I
think.
Yeah, is there anything that Idid not ask you, that you think
that people should know, eitherabout yourself or about the work
that you do?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
because I just think it matters so much.
Our words are powerful and thewords we use to describe youth,
no matter their age, can againpush people away or create
(40:05):
inviting spaces.
So I talked about theperson-first language, using a
person-first language indescribing, and so many of our
youth are getting diagnosed,younger and younger, with things
like ADHD or bipolar disorder,oppositional, whatever right we
have all these names.
They're labels, they're just.
They're just pathways to help.
(40:27):
But when we call people bytheir diagnosis or we call them
the problem they're strugglingwith, we're really setting them
up for more struggle and we areactually moving away from them
and pushing them away from us.
So instead of calling somebodya bipolar, this is a person
(40:49):
who's been diagnosed and isstruggling with bipolar disorder
.
Feels like it's not a bigdifference.
It's a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
And I think that's where we connect.
That's a big trauma-informedapproach for sure.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah, yeah.
So our youth that have offended.
We don't want to call themoffenders or juveniles, foster
youth.
No, this is a human being who'shappened to move through the
foster care system.
Because youth internalize theselabels profoundly.
(41:23):
Adolescence is a time of reallyidentifying who I am.
Who do I want to be in theworld, and when other people
tell us who we are, Other peopletell us who we are.
That limits us and keeps usstuck.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
I love it.
Lisa, where can one thank youagain for just sharing so much
of your wisdom, so much of yourpersonal experiences?
Where can people find you book,you connect with you, all of
that?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Thank you for asking, so my website is my first and
middle name, lisa L-A-S-A,mayaka M-A-A-C-Acom, and that's
the source of all things thework that we're doing, as well
as how you could book me for akeynote or a workshop or a
podcast conversation like this.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Awesome, and I'll put that all in the show notes as
well.
Lisa, thank you so much, andthank you all for listening to
another episode of the Peace andProsperity Podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Thanks, Jason.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Thank you all for listening to another episode of
the Peace and Prosperity Podcast.
Again, if you are feeling like,hey, I'm experiencing high
functioning anxiety, are feelinglike, hey, I'm experiencing
high functioning anxiety, don'tbeat yourself up about it.
It is okay.
We all experience anxiety fromtime to time and I gave you a
couple of things that you can doon your own, but don't hesitate
(42:48):
to reach out to a professionalto better manage what you're
going through.
Okay, and lastly, make sure, ifyou have not like share,
subscribe to the podcast andsend this out to a friend.
And if you want to hear certainepisodes or have certain
conversations, let me know.
(43:08):
You can shoot me a DM or justleave a review and I will
definitely follow up.
All right, y'all.
Be blessed, peace.
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