February 27, 2025 • 44 mins
Years ago, a young sculptor named Jory Morgan Walker helped shape the design of iconic Las Vegas landmarks like the Luxor, Paris, and Mandalay Bay through his fine arts expertise. Today, that same classically trained artist leads one of the West’s most prominent architectural firms, Beecher Walker Architects, blending art, technology, and architecture to create top-performing spaces for commercial real estate investors. Walker shares how to harness the power of design and functionality to boost ROI in even the most challenging market conditions. Discover his insights and strategies for success in today's dynamic environment.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Peaks and Portfolios presented by PEG
Companies, your go-to podcastfor all things commercial real
estate investment.
I'm Rachel oh, and togetherwe're diving into current events
, trends, issues andopportunities impacting the CRE
investment space, fromdissecting the latest market
moves to sharing insights ontoday's commercial real estate
(00:25):
landscape.
It's time to maximizeportfolios here in the Peaks of
the Mountain West and beyond.
Okay, welcome everybody fromthe Peaks of the Mountain West.
Thank you so much for joiningus today for this week's episode
.
I am particularly excited aboutour guest that we have today
(00:46):
joining us, our longtime PEGpartner and esteemed guest, jory
Morgan Walker, who is theprincipal architect and
president of Beecher Walker, anaward-winning architectural firm
here in Salt Lake City, utah.
So, jory, welcome today.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Hey, thank you, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
You know I was reviewing some of the notes for
today that the team has puttogether, and again I am just so
excited to be speaking with you.
We try to cover very differenttopics and we rarely talk about
design and art, and so I'mhoping that you can kind of take
us to a whole new level.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Perfect.
I would love to.
I'd like to explain what kindof what we do and how we get
there.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, no, no, thank you.
So for those of you that maynot be as familiar, beecher
Walker is a very prominentarchitectural firm here in Salt
Lake.
We have done I don't know, tonsof projects together.
Right, right, right, joy, likeeven our building that we're in.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Oh yeah, I started with you guys in the very
beginning, so we've probablydone close to over a million a
million square feet of officeand retail and apartments and
hotels and just have worked withyou guys for about 20, 20 plus
years.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Wow, you've just dated yourself, by the way, but
I'm not that crazy, no, no, no,but that's so great.
Well, not only that, you know,when I was looking at your
biography and everything, itsounds like you're well-versed
in not only the architecturalside, but the art side.
So you have three degrees,right?
You've got two bachelor's onein fine arts, one in
(02:17):
architecture, and then you alsohave a master's in architecture
from the University of Utah.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's correct.
Yeah, but that's correct.
Yeah, but I went to school it'skind of a crazy story so I've
always wanted to be an artistand so both my parents are
concert pianists.
So growing up we had to singand dance and all that kind of
weird stuff, and so by the timeI was in high school I'd done
like 75 musicals and plays.
Oh my gosh, and so when I gotback to my mission, I got a full
(02:42):
scholarship to go to a schoolin Missouri that was an art
school that had a mule barntheater that while you're going
to school there you get yourequity points.
So you get your equity card andI got a full scholarship in
theater and dance.
But I always wanted to be anartist.
So I went there and I playedTony in West Side Story.
We played at the Kennedy Centerin DC, Wow.
(03:06):
And while I was there I got myart portfolio going.
And so then I transferred fromthere to University of Utah and
got my undergrad degree insculpture and painting and my
wife was like you need to get areal job, I'll be famous someday
.
I'm going to be a famoussculptor and make a lot of money
.
And we had, like you know,three little boys and she was
working nights as a nurse.
She's like you can get a realjob, and so I went back to
school and got my bachelor's inarchitecture, my master's in
(03:28):
architecture, and then startedmy firm about 28 years ago in my
basement, wow, and now you'reone of the biggest and most
prominent firms here in Utah andwe're going to talk a little
bit more about that.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
But a return on investment isn't just costs and
interest rates and whatnot, butit's also the quality and design
of what we're building, andthen that, I think that I think,
impacts the rents andeverything that we're able to
capture.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So one of my favorite things.
I tell clients all the time Isaid it doesn't cost any more to
stack bricks right as it doesto stack them wrong.
Yeah.
What I mean by that is everybuilding's got bricks and stone
and concrete and footings andwalls and glass.
But spending a little more timeon the design and getting the
design done right is one of thethings that increases the value
(04:17):
greatly on a project.
If the design's done well, youcan walk into a project and say
you know it wasn't designed verywell, but it pretty much costs
the same or more than a projectthat is designed very well.
You can walk into a project andsay you know it wasn't designed
very well, but it pretty muchcosts the same or more than a
project that is designed verywell.
So it just takes a little moretime to stack the bricks right
instead of stacking them wrong.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, no, I 1000% agree with that.
I just think that you know,when I look, when we work with
investors and investors, by theway, they very much care about
what something looks like.
You know they they haveownership and they're proud to
be able to drive by something.
It's like that's my building.
You know they may have like afractional share of ownership,
but you know when they're proudabout and I think beauty is
(04:58):
universal Like people get what,something when something is
well-designed, they can see ifsomething is not well-designed
and something that is.
And so I wanted to back up andkind of talk a little bit about
you know, I think yourbackground to me is so unique in
that you're not just a straightarchitect.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, I think that's really important to understand
because I believe thatarchitecture and art really
interrelate.
And when I was in sculptingschool, we would have a live
model on a stand in the middleof the room right, and we would
have our clay that we weresculpting on a little stand in
front of us and they would turnthe model like 10% turn and keep
(05:38):
rotating the model and youwould turn your piece as you
were sculpting and you wouldkeep adding and subtracting the
clay and looking at the profile,looking what you're looking at
and while they're turning themodel, pretty soon what you're
working on became what you wereseeing, and it's a process of of
looking at something, making adecision, changing it, going
(06:01):
back and forth and having theability to have that eye.
I taught University of UtahSchool of Architecture a couple
semesters ago and I was tellingthe students that I can't teach
you how to see, and seeing takesreally traveling.
You just said you just traveled.
My wife and I just got backfrom Prague and Poland and we
(06:24):
went to Montforte in Italy andthen went to Turin and we're
gone about a month and I tell mystudents that you've got to
learn to see, and what I mean bythat is you've got to spend
hundreds of hours looking inbooks.
I remember as a young child mymother had these beautiful large
art table books.
One was Leonardo da Vinci.
It was like two and a half feet, like one foot six by about six
(06:48):
inches thick.
And I remember when I was alittle boy she would let me wash
my hands first and then I couldspend time looking through her
art books and I spent hundredsof hours looking and seeing.
And I think that's what makesarchitecture so cool is now,
when I design, I designeverything three-dimensionally
(07:08):
and I'm constantly looking at it, turning it, putting
perspective, turning the shadowson it, and I tell people all
the time it's crazy, but as Idesign, the decisions I make
just keep progressing.
It's kind of like painting.
You add a layer and then youadd another layer, another layer
, and pretty soon it startsgoing the right direction.
(07:29):
And when it goes the rightdirection you get a chill on
your back and a chill on yourspine and you know you hit it,
you know you're going the rightdirection.
I tell people all the time whendesign is right, it will feel
peaceful and good.
When it's not right, you'llkind of feel a little angst and
a little bit of attention aboutit.
And so as I work with clientsand work people, it's this
(07:49):
ability to see and that's whyyou know understanding that as
an architect, as an artist, I'mconstantly looking at what I'm
designing, rotating in 3D, andthen modify and changing and
going back and forth, and thenwhen it starts clicking, I get
so excited, I just can't stopand it just keeps flowing and
going, and so to me that's whereit makes a lot of um, big
(08:13):
difference.
But what's really cool aboutarchitecture?
Now I tell the story.
I think it's a really goodanalogy.
So, back in the, you know amason, you're a Catholic priest
or Catholic, and you hired thismason to design a cathedral for
you, and that mason would take apiece of clay and he would draw
(08:36):
a floor plan of what thecathedral would look like, and
then he would draw a section ofwhat the cathedral would look
like.
We use that archaic conventionof portraying architecture
almost to this day.
Most people don't understandplan section elevations.
(08:56):
It's something that you've gotto kind of learn.
But if I create a languagethat's a 3D language that you
can understand and see, then youand I can be on the same page
and I can help you understandwhy I'm doing and why it's
important and why this works andwhy this doesn't work.
And so, by creating everythingwe do now in 3D, it forces us to
(09:17):
look at it and create alanguage that the client and the
developer and the investor canunderstand, so they understand
why I'm making these choices andwhy we're doing it this way and
why this works and why itdoesn't work.
And so to me that's really animportant aspect of how we
design today.
It's even got to a point nowthat you know I will do
(09:39):
everything in 3D and then I'vegot a software where I'll do
animations and renderings, putmaterials on it.
But the other cool thing aboutit is there's a new program
called Revit that came out aboutseven or eight years ago, where
we actually build the entirebuilding three-dimensionally in
the computer with actual studs,bricks, concrete foundations,
(10:00):
and so it forces us asarchitects to solve the problem,
to really think through to theend.
Because, remember, there was alot of times before that I'd go
to a building and go oh my gosh,I had no idea that duct and
beam were in the same place.
You wouldn't really know untilyou were actually building it.
But since we build it today inthe computer and all 3D, we have
(10:21):
the ability to reallyunderstand what's going on.
Even our structural engineersand our mechanic engineers build
their models in 3D.
We put them inside each otherand then the software has what's
called clash detection, whereit can see if there's issues, if
there's a beam running througha duct or if there's a toilet
sitting on a beam or those kindof things.
So what it does is it reallyhas helped us, as architects,
(10:43):
become more problem solvers andproblem creators.
Yeah, a lot of times there'sthe you go to the job site and
the contractor would be would becussing the architect, sure you
know, because why?
Oh my gosh, what was?
he thinking yeah, yeah and todaywe really have an ability to if
really understand fully, yeahwhat the building's going to be
when it's being built.
And the other cool thing aboutthat is for construction, the
(11:07):
contractors today can take ourmodels because they have
building information called BIMbuilding information modeling in
them and they can plug it intotheir computers and do takeoffs
and know exactly how many studsor how much concrete or how much
sheetrock or how much glass.
So even their estimating andtheir cost takeoffs are much
more correct because all theinformation we can now give them
(11:30):
.
So it's changed how we dothings.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah and so okay.
So I love that and I love howtechnology is aiding in all of
this and there's collaboration,and then to your point, how
there's hopefully less frictionright between the architects and
the developers or in theconstruction group, because you
know you're not making misstepsin the way.
So does that mean then,everything is more efficient,
(11:53):
that we can be more costefficient, that things are
shorter?
like things take much shorterthan they used to Like.
Help me, because, again, thisis, you know, we are listening
bases, investors, and so howdoes that impact then?
Just the overall investment?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Well, a couple of things it really does.
You know, for us as architects,it costs me more.
I've got to hire more advanced,technically advanced and more
technically trained people.
You don't really have justdraftsmen anymore.
You know it used to be.
You know, in Frank LloydWright's day, if you've seen
some pictures of the studiosthey were in, there'd be a
studio with 150 men or womenleaning over a desk with lights,
(12:32):
things on their arms to keeptheir dirty hands and stuff off
the drawings, and they weredrawing everything by hand.
Wow.
And today we can do that sameamount of work with about 10
people Wow.
And today we can do that sameamount of work with about 10
people Wow.
So it's really it's.
It's.
It's helped the profession alot, but it's also made it so
it's a lot harder profession toget into, because you need less
(12:53):
people to do the work, but alsoyou need smarter people, because
you can't have just people thataren't trained, just picking up
red lines.
You got to have somebody whoreally understands architecture
and how it works.
And even when I was teaching thedesign school at the University
of Utah, I even told the guyseven if you're not doing the
design, design goes all the waythrough the project.
(13:15):
So even though I might designthe initial concept for the
project, if you're working on it, you've got to keep all these
design ideas in your mind whyyou're doing the detailing, why
you're doing other things.
So the design goes all the waythrough the project.
And then what's really coolabout it, too, is also we can
even put a virtual headset onand you can actually walk into
(13:36):
the building today wow, you knowand really look around, so
there's no way it's reallygotten kind of crazy, but it
really has helped us becomebecome better at justifying why
we're doing what we're doing,instead of saying you just got
to trust me, it's going to becool.
I can show you why it's cool andwhy it works, and why it's
worth doing it this way.
(13:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
So okay.
So now let's bring it down tokind of a real life, real world
example.
You know costs are higher nowthan they've been in a while.
You know labor is expensive,materials et cetera, interest
rates and I'm just talking about, you know, in our world of
construction and development,interest rates are such that
(14:22):
financing now is much moreexpensive than it used to be,
and so we just have to betighter and smarter all around.
How do you like, if a groupcomes to you and says, hey, we
need to build this, but this isyour budget and, by the way, we
want it to look best in class,world class?
How do you accommodate, youknow real budgets and needs and
still not sacrifice yourarchitectural principles?
I mean, what do you do todeliver on that?
(14:43):
Because that probably happensevery day.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, I'll be honest with you, that is.
You know.
That is kind of what my gift is.
I tell people all the time youknow why do we have so much work
, why do we have so much underconstruction?
That's because I have theability to look at and know what
we need to do to get it inbudget.
I'll give you a great example.
You know we've been workingwith your staff working on the
(15:05):
Freedom Commons apartments whichis a bus, building your office
building.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yes, and we've worked on it for a couple of years now
.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
And you know.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
And you know we want to push that, we want to be top
of rents, we want to deliversomething that is going to be
aspirational and hopefully pushthe rents.
But go on, go on.
But we have to make it work.
So just curious.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So we've gone through probably 15 different versions
and renditions.
But what's great about it isI'm really quickly at pulling
together a concept and so we cancreate drawings to a schematic
level pretty quickly that thecontractor and developer then
can put some numbers to and seewhere the budget gets.
(15:43):
What's really struggling now isour price of concrete here in
Utah has almost tripled.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So the cost of parking and parking structures
and podiums has just gottencrazy.
Yeah, the cost of parking andparking structures and podiums
has just gotten crazy, crazy,yeah, so it's forced.
You think about it.
We've gone from $18,000 a stallto $38,000 a stall for parking
structures, wow, and so it's oneof those things that's made it
very, very difficult to makeespecially apartments work.
Because you do apartments, youthink about it.
(16:12):
Every bed needs to have aparking stall.
Yeah, yeah.
So if you're doing 225 units,you might have 450 beds.
Yeah.
Well, all of a sudden you havethat many parking stalls and
then you double the cost of thatparking stall.
How do you make that pencil?
Yeah, and so really interesting.
So we've been having theopportunity to really try to
think out of the box and reallytry to think of different
(16:32):
solutions and different ways ofdoing things.
And so I think what makes thiswork really well is the ability
to 3D model it, look at it, givethe client something to
visually look at, but then giveto the estimators enough
information that they can do ajustified guess to make sure
we're going the right direction.
And I think that's the key andthat's what we've been doing a
(16:55):
lot of now is designing, workingwith the estimators, because
what happens is you know, it'san interesting world we're
living in right now.
You think about the cost ofmoney, and the cap rate is kind
of the amount of investmentyou're going to make on your
investment kind of thing, right?
Well, what's happening rightnow is that banks are offering,
(17:17):
if you do a T-bill, you can get5.5% on your money without any
risk, right?
So if you're going to invest insomething, it's going to be a
two to three year payout, right?
You want to at least get maybea six, maybe a six and a half,
maybe even a seven.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Seven is the going minimum, but yes, yes, yeah, so
you need that to make it work?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
or why would you invest in something and not
knowing that it might not payoff?
and it might be a couple ofyears Right.
So the challenge is, with thecost of construction so high,
the cost of money so high, Ithink that's the trick.
And so it's thinking out of thebox, thinking differently and
then creating scenarios veryquickly that we can put numbers
(17:57):
to and start steering ourselvesin the right direction.
And so, on the FreedomApartments, we've really gone
back and forth from doing twolevels of podium parking with
the podium with the buildings ontop, to saying, oh gosh, that's
38,000 installed.
That's pushing us out of thebox.
So what's something else wecould do?
How can we make it work?
(18:17):
And so we've come up with asolution now where we've got a
standalone parking structure inthe middle, because a standalone
parking structure is cheaperthan the podium parking
structures, and then kind ofplugging the buildings into it,
and I think we're going in areally cool direction.
I think we're finding solutions.
But that's what it takes inthis market.
It does you.
But that's what it takes inthis market.
(18:38):
It does you know it's crazy.
I've got about $600 millionright now under construction,
but it's all stuff that wasfinanced and budgeted before.
Before the rates it was a year,year and a half ago, even though
it's under construction now.
Yeah, and that's what peopledon't understand as investors.
Yeah, if you want to be underconstruction in six months to a
year, we need to start right now.
(18:59):
We have to design it, get itbudgeted, get the entitlements,
which are the approvals from thecity.
Well, that's the other thingtoo right Cities are not.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I mean, you're on their timetable, so that delays
things.
Yeah, you've got that wholeelement.
That's.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
The tricky part is that you know, all of a sudden
the markets let's say in fourmonths, five months, the markets
kick in, the election's over,the rates come down.
There's like $22 trillionsitting on the sidelines.
People are ready, there's a tonof need.
So all of a sudden that breaksloose and you guys call me, say
Jory, let's go.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Well, we're six months to a year before you're
going to put sticks in theground.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And so that's where I feel right now we're starting
to get busy again, becausepeople are saying you know what?
We got to have things teed upfor the next three or four
months, because that's whenthings are going to start
cranking again.
And in order to tee them up,we've got to start designing it,
we've got to work with the city, we've got to start figuring
out how it's going to work, whatit's going to cost, start
getting the approvals, gettingthe budgets figured out.
(19:58):
And so it's tricky, becauseright now people think well,
gosh, that's four or five, sixmonths away, but it takes us at
least four or five months to getthe project approved.
You see that things are turning.
It's almost too late to jump in.
You already kind of missed theboat a little bit.
(20:27):
So it's one thing we're seeing alot of.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, we really believe that this time period
will be a vintage year for realestate.
The numbers don't necessarilypencil that, but the supply and
demand, and actually it seguesso well into what I wanted to
talk about next, which is, youknow, this economy and
lifestyles have created, youknow, what we believe is more of
(20:52):
a generation of renters.
Right, Today's, those folksthat are entering into family
formation stages and whatnot aredelayed, you know, by a decade.
Almost two People are, you know, valuing experience over, like,
ownership.
We have more renters by choicethan ever before.
It's not because of income, butbecause they don't necessarily
(21:14):
want to be strapped with amortgage and obviously mortgage
rates are such that it's not asaccretive to them.
So, you know, we talk about, ifthat's the case, we need to as
a real estate.
You know, investment firm, lookat more multifamily, look at
more residential.
That includes single familyrentals.
And there's, you know, nowwe're catering to a whole
(21:36):
different type of renter whichreally values experiences.
Right, they want to live inspaces that are conducive to
their lifestyle.
They care about design, right,Like nowadays.
You know, because I'm anInstagram person, I Instagram, I
scroll, I look, so I am exposedto so much more design than I
(21:59):
ever have in my life.
Like I follow interiordesigners, I follow architects,
I you know, and obviously in thebusiness that I am but now it's
like, oh, I don't have to livein someplace ugly, I can live in
a beautiful place like thatperson.
And so now there's you know,when people choose, they can
choose beautiful spaces.
You know when people choose,they can choose beautiful spaces
(22:20):
.
And so, anyway, I'd love tohear your thoughts on I imagine
other groups are approaching youwith this like we need to think
more thoughtfully about thespaces we need to think through,
like you know, working fromhome, we need to think through
the different amenities that wewant to bring.
Tell me how that has changed orevolved over the last decade or
several years and how that'simpacting the way you're
(22:40):
approaching, let's say, any kindof residential design.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Well, it's really interesting.
I'll give you a littlebackground.
So 10 years ago I've done overnine million square feet of
office.
So I've done a crap littleoffice.
10, 15 years ago the interiordesign of the offices was pretty
basic.
We'd do some corporate ceilings, nice furniture, nice carpeting
, a nice lobby, but it waspretty basic.
(23:06):
It was nice, it was elegant,but it wasn't anything crazy.
Then the dot-com boom happenedand all of a sudden you had all
these young guys, young womenand they're making these
incredible businesses thatwanted their spaces to speak
about them, and it changedeverything on office.
All of a sudden you hadcafeterias and places to hang
(23:26):
out and places to play ball andplay games and, you know,
full-on gyms and people werespending a ton of money to
create experiences for theiremployees to want to be at their
space and because there wassuch competition to grab these
people, they were trying toreally create this environment.
These people really wanted tobe there.
(23:47):
Now let's fast forward.
We've got the pandemic, we'vegot all these things that are
going to happen and it's kind ofchanged office when all of a
sudden, office people or somepeople are working from home and
some people are working, youknow, in our office.
We work Monday through Thursdayand everybody doesn't come in
on Friday, saturday, sunday.
Right.
I work 10 to 3 and work fromhome most of the time if I want
to.
We've kind of changed how wedeal with that.
(24:09):
Yeah.
The other thing that we'vechanged is we learned that
people are willing to live in alot less space if they can feel
like they're living in a resort,yep.
If they feel like they'reliving out of four seasons, yeah
, and there's an incredible pooland there's incredible areas
and space and beautiful areas tohang out and do things that
people are much more about.
(24:31):
I'd rather travel and be goneand do other things than to have
a three-bedroom home in Draper.
Yeah, and it's changed howpeople see things.
They've also seen people who'vegotten way upside down because
of the up and downs of themortgages, and so people are
looking and saying, well, gosh,that doesn't make any sense to
me, yeah, well, and they caninvest that money too, right,
(24:55):
exactly, yeah, it's a wholedifferent mindset.
But what we're doing?
We just finished a cool projectcalled Holiday Hills, or it's
called the Grandeur.
It's over on the old CottonwoodMall site.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I know it exactly Right by my neighborhood.
And I've been walking, I walkedthat area.
So which one did you do themultifamily there?
What did you guys do?
We did the multifamily.
What did you guys do?
We did the multifamily.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
We did Block D.
We did the big building there,okay, and so it's got the two
levels of parking.
Then it's got four levels ofapartments and the top level is
high-end condos.
Okay, it's got some restaurantsand stuff and the amenities for
that place are freaking rockstar.
The condos on top were vanillashell.
They were selling for $1,000 asquare foot and sold out in two
(25:36):
weeks.
Crazy, because people aresaying I'm willing to live in an
apartment kind of setting if Ican have a terrible pool and gym
and concierge and all that kindof stuff.
So people are saying I'd muchrather have that kind of
lifestyle where I can be moreflexible and do more things.
And so we've looked at it.
How can we bring that kind ofenvironment?
(25:58):
You know, as a young architect,when I first got out of school
with my degree in sculpture, Igot hired to work in a firm that
did all the sculpture andtheming for all the hotels in
Vegas.
Oh yes, I saw that yeah like.
Mandalay.
Bay.
Yeah, I did Luxor, mandalay Bay,paris, okay, and being an
(26:19):
architect and a sculptor, I waslike the dream come true for
these guys.
Yeah, because we had 25sculptors back in the shop that
were sculpting things.
And then I was the interfacebetween all these high-end
designers, like Dougal Designout of LA and Jeffrey Beers out
of New York, and I was workingwith these world-class designers
doing all this crazy designstuff, and so I saw how taking
(26:43):
an idea and a theme and creatinga space that people want to be
in really draws people andbrings people there.
And so as we started looking,trying to apply that more to
apartment living and to more ofthat, or condo living and
apartment living what things dopeople want to see?
What do they want to do?
So I think having those thingsand they make people everything
(27:06):
from a dog wash to places wherethere's been, like bike repair
centers, part of the apartment.
We've done things where you'llhave full on theater that you
can go reserve for your familyto come down and see a movie in
a theater.
You know we've got full onareas where you can reserve it
(27:27):
to have your birthday party withyour whole family there.
Maybe your apartment's only 600square feet, but there's a 2000
square foot great room with TVsand a kitchen and you rent that
space for your apartment's only600 square feet.
But there's a 2,000 square footgreat room with TVs and a
kitchen and you rent that spacefor your family's birthday or
something.
And so by getting them thosespaces, they're much willing to
live in a smaller space becausethere's so many other places
they can hang out and be.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Did you build pickleball courts?
That's my big question.
Yes, it's a little trickythough, because there's been a
lot of um stuff about noise andso like on the freedom, but they
do like the I heard they likeaddress it with like a felt um,
felt paddles, and well it's more, but it's more that it's so fun
(28:09):
that people are pretty vocalwhen they're playing.
Oh gotcha.
So it's less about the pingingand the no, it's more about what
it's so fun.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah , yeah, no, that kind of stuff.
So, like on the FreedomApartments, we're actually
putting the tickle ball courtson top of the parking structure.
Yeah, yeah, so they're out ofthe way so that they aren't
going to be noisy for theresidents.
Because when you're in these um, these, these um deck and
(28:37):
rooftop plazas or areas that arein between the hotel, in
between hotels or apartments, um, you want to have a sense of
some privacy, sure, a sense ofsome noise control, sure?
Um, you don't want to havepeople outside your window
partying, you know?
So you want to.
You want to create these.
We actually create these nodesand pockets where people can
gather that are somewhat moreprivate.
So it's almost like theselittle cabanas, these little
(28:57):
gathering spots and hanging outareas where there are these
really cool spaces and yourapartment opens up to the
amenity space.
How do you create some sense ofdivision between that amenity
(29:19):
space and your deck and yourapartment?
So we've done things we'll do,like a three-foot planter wall.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Just to soften that and have.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
The people that have their private deck have a little
bit of sense of this is mine, alittle bit of privacy and those
kinds of things.
So it's balancing all of thatbut giving everybody what they
want.
You know, making places to dooutdoor yoga has really been
really big and places to go.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Health and wellness is a big theme right now.
Yeah, absolutely Big thingright now.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
And so I think those are things that you do, but I
think also by providing reallygood design in the unit, really
making sure the space is notwasted If you've got 600 square
feet, that every inch of it isworking and cool and feels good,
we will do things.
We'll lay furniture in and do3D renderings of the space just
(30:09):
to make sure we figure it outand get it right.
We've even done things.
We've given them a little bitmore height.
Instead of like an 8, eightfoot or a seven foot six ceiling
, we might do a nine footceiling to give them a little
more height, a little morevolume, those kinds of things.
But I think those are reallyimportant aspects of it all to
make it all work.
And the other thing that'sreally important with these
kinds of developments is makingsure they're connected, do other
(30:29):
things they can do.
If I was living in a downtownapartment and I could walk to a
really cool restaurant or a baror a really cool bookstore,
having that connection and thatflexibility is what really
creates neighborhoods.
Ninth and Ninth is a real goodexample of this.
There's other areas downtownthat really made that happen.
It's not just living in theapartment.
(30:51):
How do we connect them to theneighborhood and create a whole
sense of neighborhood within anapartment setting?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, no, I love the walkability piece.
Like you mentioned, 9th and 9thand for those who don't know
Salt Lake as well, it's justkind of an eclectic neighborhood
.
But, as you were saying before,I'm guilty of what you just
mentioned about resort likeamenities appealing to people,
because I lived in earlier on inmy life.
I lived in Southern Californiaand I lived in a box apartment
(31:24):
but the resort or sorry, thepool was absolutely drop dead
gorgeous.
Like you said, it was like itcame out of a Four Seasons and
so and I paid a lot of moneyjust to live there because I
wanted to be at that pool everySaturday and exactly Fast
forward and that was.
You know, I'm dating myself, butthat was 20 years ago and now
(31:44):
you know I want my living spaceto be that way.
You know my home and etc.
That's just different.
But I'm also the generationit's like where you scrimp and
you save and you buy a home andyou stay in it forever and
that's how you build wealth andthen you sell it whatever.
But this generation and I getit, I get it they probably can
make more money if they rent andthen they invest that money
(32:06):
into other things and then theycan be nomadic.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
They've seen their parents struggle.
I mean, my parents had.
You know.
I grew up in a house inKalamazoo, michigan that was
Henderson Castle.
That was 18,000 square feet,had a ballroom on the third
floor, you know.
They lived there and then theymoved here and bought a big
house down in Provo.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I'm sorry your parents lived you grew up in an
18,000 square foot home.
Is that what you just said?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, it was cool.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
It was built in 1860.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, it was cool.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
It was built in 1860.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
That's not normal.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
You know that right.
That's not normal.
You know that right.
I know it was on six acres.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Six acres in downtown Kalamazoo, okay.
And it was built by a guy whomade uniforms for the Civil War
Okay, he made a crap load ofmoney.
It was their arms and regaliacompany and it was called the
Henderson Castle.
It was a Victorian, 1860s,1870s castle.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
And the ballroom on the third floor was really cool
but it had a little outcroppingoff it that I made my art studio
and then it had servants'quarters and that's where I
lived, in the servants' quarterson the third floor.
But on my senior year in highschool we had a Christmas
cotillion in the ballroom at myhouse Wow.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
And it was in the yearbook.
It was pretty funny.
That's amazing, I think I— butwhat happens?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
is people live in those kind of big houses and my
parents in their old age did areverse mortgage and had nothing
left.
I mean, we've seen our parentssuffer through having these mini
mansions and seeing how itreally doesn't make sense and I
think the younger generation islooking at that and saying you
know, I don't want that lotRight, right.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I want to experience.
I want to go to differentcountries.
I want to kind of move aroundand so long as I have my nice
resort pool and a pickleballcourt, I'm good, exactly Okay,
well, I, good, okay, well, I,you know, super, appreciate that
, because that's very helpful.
I wanted to talk a little bitabout some trends that we're
(34:03):
seeing.
Well, we've been talking alittle bit about office.
You know, I think in certainmarkets and we know class A
office is still, you know, stillreally works.
In fact that's where people areflocking to.
So then you've got these olderoffice buildings that are more,
you know, they're not asinhabited.
Obviously it depends by market,but there is this trend to, you
(34:26):
know, reuse, renovate.
You know PEG has done a couple.
We bought a building indowntown Phoenix and we
converted it an office buildinginto a hotel, and then we've
also converted an officebuilding, a smaller one down in
Mill Creek, into apartments.
Neither project was easy orstraightforward.
(34:49):
Nation are trying to do becauseyou've got these old historic
buildings that are sitting onprime real estate in these urban
downtown areas and they aredoing the conversions right now.
So I know there's a big onegoing on up in Salt Lake
downtown.
I haven't followed it as wellthat Heinz has been doing, but
I'm just curious what have youbeen seeing?
(35:09):
Are you involved in that asmuch?
What are your thoughts?
Because that is definitely atheme that we're seeing right
now.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, we are still getting involved in that.
It's one of those things wherepeople are asking us to look at
it Because, you know, withoffice changing its dynamics
quite a bit, I think we'rere-looking at things.
I know for a while Peg wasbuying old resident inns that
were just deteriorating andfalling apart and converting
them into apartments becausethey were, they were close.
(35:36):
You know that they had goodbones yeah great, and they the
whole um, the whole idea ofresidence inns kind of changed.
They used to be kind of littleapartments you'd rent yeah and
now they've kind of made theminto a part hotels with a with
more of a kitchen amenity, andso their their marketing has
changed and their long-term stayidea has changed.
They had tons of these oldthree-story walk-ups, garden
(36:03):
style things that were kind ofbad and ugly, but taking those
and retrofitting was really abrilliant thing that PEG did.
So I think they peg for a longtime has had foresight.
you know, one thing I appreciateabout peg as a development
company is they they have to bedeveloping and making good
(36:24):
choices to keep working yeahthere are some developers out
there who don't need to reallyworry about making money every
day because they have a largeportfolio or they have a large
bankroll, but Peg has always hadto keep the ball rolling.
A bunch of young, smart guysare like okay, how do we shuck
(36:44):
and jive to adapt to this market?
And that's something that I'vealways appreciated is that it's
kind of like for us asarchitects.
my payroll is like 400,000 amonth and I've got to need a lot
of architecture to keep allthese guys fed guys and gals fed
.
And so to understand thatsometimes we've got to rethink
(37:06):
how we're doing things, thinkout of the box, try some
different ideas and thoughts,look at property differently,
you know.
So I think that's really a bigthing.
What we're doing a lot of, too,now is looking at different
properties more in the downtownarea and tearing down a lot of
small old little houses anddoing some cool.
(37:28):
I guess two real cool productsthat are in the old baseball
district One's called Traditionand one's called so I that are
just studio apartments withreally cool amenities, um some
cool retail stuff, but in thosemore downtown areas and trying
to in that transition from, youknow, really um bad, depleted
(37:49):
housing, trying to bring someenergy and stuff back to those
areas.
Yeah, that's been really big.
We're doing quite a bit of thatright now, which has really
kind of changed how we do things.
But I think, having the abilityto look at what's happening and,
instead of being scared by it,move with it, that's what I
think Peg's been doing is saying, hey, right now, maybe this
(38:11):
podium, two levels podium, fivelevel, stick, which you're
seeing built all over.
Maybe that's not counselingright now, but what else is?
Yeah.
And what else can we look at?
Yeah.
And what else can we make work?
Because you don't want to sitand just wait and hope that it's
all going to go back the way itwas.
Because it's probably not.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, no, definitely.
Things have changed and I lovethat you're helping us figure
that out.
I've heard a lot about thisproject and we want to move
forward.
We know that it's the rightlocation.
We know that it's the righttime.
It's just how do we make itwork?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
So we really appreciate having you.
You talked about your love ofInstagram, those kind of things.
You know we've actually doneprojects now where we're doing
things to make them, so they'reInstagram worthy.
Yeah.
We're doing things, you have to.
We have to.
I just did a really cool muraldown at Trolley Square where we
recreated like you're lookingback in time and looking through
this mural and you're seeingthe old trolley cars and they've
(39:10):
got, we've got the trolley carsand the conductors and the
people are all painted in thistrompe l'oeil which looks
three-dimensional, so it lookslike it's going back in space.
And then there's a conductor infront who would be conducting
one of the trains and there's aplace you can stand, take a
picture of yourself by thisconductor with this trompe
(39:31):
l'oeil train in the background,and then people are posting that
and posting about trolley.
At our Holiday Hills we havethese large murals on the
outside of the parking garageswhere we've done different kinds
of art that people can stand infront of, take pictures of and
tag themselves in it.
It's getting that buzz that theyounger generation says, oh my
(39:53):
gosh, I want to check that outor I want to see that or I want
to be in that.
You've seen those big wingsthat they've done on buildings
where people will stand in frontof them and post the big wings?
Oh yeah, you got to have wingssomewhere or something, some
sort of background, but the ideais is how do you create that
Instagram buzz with yourapartment project so that people
(40:14):
say this is just different?
Yeah.
And I want to be part of this.
This is cool.
Yeah.
So I think that's a reallyimportant thing.
So, as our amenities, as thedesign, the things we do, we
want to make sure that peoplethink it's cool and post about
it, right?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Right, right, right, which the traditional you know.
You know my, my, some of theguys may not fully appreciate
the power of Instagram, right,because they're not necessarily
on it that's not their jam, butI try to explain to them.
But your renters are, andactually Cameron's really great,
he loves social media and he'slike he knows the importance of
it.
But just as you described, it'sthat extra layer that you know
(40:51):
we didn't have a few years agoeven right, that wasn't as
important.
But now every little piece isimportant, down to the
Instagrammable worthiness of aproject.
So I love that you understandthat and that you incorporate
that into your designs.
Okay, well, no, listen.
(41:11):
As I said, I was super excitedto speak with you.
You've kind of reiteratedthings I've always thought, but
it's nice to hear it fromsomeone who's been in going
through it.
I wanted to just leave with onelast question to you.
You know we're in a challengingreal estate environment.
Real estate assets valuationsare down, mainly because of the
(41:33):
things I described before Fromyour vantage point, and you work
with so many different groups.
What are just some last nuggetsthat you would share with
investors today as it relates tothe developers that you work
with, the different projectsthat you're working with across
the region and nationally.
What are just some thoughts.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, I had a friend tell me once.
He said, jory, only invest inthings you understand or things
you can control.
And I always thought that wasreally good advice, because I
don't have a lot of money in thestock market, because I just
don't get it.
And so I think, as an investor,make sure you put two things
invest in things you understandand put smart people around you.
(42:16):
Yeah.
And that's what Peg has done isthey've hired the smartest minds
anywhere in Utah, probably fromaround the United States, to be
around them and don't be scaredof having somebody smarter than
you around you, oh no.
You know and have them, and soI think that is finding the
right people and putting theright people around you.
Oh no, you know, yeah, and havethem, and so I think that is
finding the right people andputting the right people around
you.
And then I've had to make surethat you understand what you're
(42:40):
investing in.
Yeah.
Is it really exceeding my mind?
Yeah, because once youunderstand that, then you
understand how it's going towork and how it's going to flow
and which ones are really goodones, which ones aren't really
good ones.
But to me that's kind of howwe've done it.
And then I think it's alsounderstanding the team.
What we've done and this iswhere we found a ton of success
(43:01):
is we have a team, we have PEG,we have Beecher Walker, we have
Hunt Electric, we have CCIMechanical, we have groups that
we've done hundreds of millionsof dollars of work together with
.
So we kind of know what toexpect and we know what we're
going to get, and I think havingthe right team together makes
all the difference.
And so look at the team,because that's really what
(43:25):
you're buying when you'reinvesting.
You're investing in people, andmake sure that the right people
are there and the right team isthere, because that is how
you're going to ensure thatyou're getting out of the
investment what you need.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Yeah, again, we are so grateful to have bright minds
like yourselves that havehelped to innovate and to make
an impact as we've built alongthe Wasatch Front and beyond,
and so we're so grateful thatyou know to have a team member
like yourself, like BeecherWalker, to help us on this
journey.
So maybe we'll have apost-mortem after our freedom
(43:59):
project.
What do?
You think Okay cool, okay, sothank you, listeners, for
joining.
We so appreciate you um fromthe peaks of the mountain West
until next time.
Welcome to Peaks and Portfolios presented by PEG
Companies, your go-to podcastfor all things commercial real
estate investment.
I'm Rachel oh, and togetherwe're diving into current events
, trends, issues andopportunities impacting the CRE
investment space, fromdissecting the latest market
moves to sharing insights ontoday's commercial real estate
(00:25):
landscape.
It's time to maximizeportfolios here in the Peaks of
the Mountain West and beyond.
Okay, welcome everybody fromthe Peaks of the Mountain West.
Thank you so much for joiningus today for this week's episode
.
I am particularly excited aboutour guest that we have today
(00:46):
joining us, our longtime PEGpartner and esteemed guest, jory
Morgan Walker, who is theprincipal architect and
president of Beecher Walker, anaward-winning architectural firm
here in Salt Lake City, utah.
So, jory, welcome today.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Hey, thank you, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
You know I was reviewing some of the notes for
today that the team has puttogether, and again I am just so
excited to be speaking with you.
We try to cover very differenttopics and we rarely talk about
design and art, and so I'mhoping that you can kind of take
us to a whole new level.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Perfect.
I would love to.
I'd like to explain what kindof what we do and how we get
there.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, no, no, thank you.
So for those of you that maynot be as familiar, beecher
Walker is a very prominentarchitectural firm here in Salt
Lake.
We have done I don't know, tonsof projects together.
Right, right, right, joy, likeeven our building that we're in.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Oh yeah, I started with you guys in the very
beginning, so we've probablydone close to over a million a
million square feet of officeand retail and apartments and
hotels and just have worked withyou guys for about 20, 20 plus
years.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Wow, you've just dated yourself, by the way, but
I'm not that crazy, no, no, no,but that's so great.
Well, not only that, you know,when I was looking at your
biography and everything, itsounds like you're well-versed
in not only the architecturalside, but the art side.
So you have three degrees,right?
You've got two bachelor's onein fine arts, one in
(02:17):
architecture, and then you alsohave a master's in architecture
from the University of Utah.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's correct.
Yeah, but that's correct.
Yeah, but I went to school it'skind of a crazy story so I've
always wanted to be an artistand so both my parents are
concert pianists.
So growing up we had to singand dance and all that kind of
weird stuff, and so by the timeI was in high school I'd done
like 75 musicals and plays.
Oh my gosh, and so when I gotback to my mission, I got a full
(02:42):
scholarship to go to a schoolin Missouri that was an art
school that had a mule barntheater that while you're going
to school there you get yourequity points.
So you get your equity card andI got a full scholarship in
theater and dance.
But I always wanted to be anartist.
So I went there and I playedTony in West Side Story.
We played at the Kennedy Centerin DC, Wow.
(03:06):
And while I was there I got myart portfolio going.
And so then I transferred fromthere to University of Utah and
got my undergrad degree insculpture and painting and my
wife was like you need to get areal job, I'll be famous someday
.
I'm going to be a famoussculptor and make a lot of money
.
And we had, like you know,three little boys and she was
working nights as a nurse.
She's like you can get a realjob, and so I went back to
school and got my bachelor's inarchitecture, my master's in
(03:28):
architecture, and then startedmy firm about 28 years ago in my
basement, wow, and now you'reone of the biggest and most
prominent firms here in Utah andwe're going to talk a little
bit more about that.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
But a return on investment isn't just costs and
interest rates and whatnot, butit's also the quality and design
of what we're building, andthen that, I think that I think,
impacts the rents andeverything that we're able to
capture.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So one of my favorite things.
I tell clients all the time Isaid it doesn't cost any more to
stack bricks right as it doesto stack them wrong.
Yeah.
What I mean by that is everybuilding's got bricks and stone
and concrete and footings andwalls and glass.
But spending a little more timeon the design and getting the
design done right is one of thethings that increases the value
(04:17):
greatly on a project.
If the design's done well, youcan walk into a project and say
you know it wasn't designed verywell, but it pretty much costs
the same or more than a projectthat is designed very well.
You can walk into a project andsay you know it wasn't designed
very well, but it pretty muchcosts the same or more than a
project that is designed verywell.
So it just takes a little moretime to stack the bricks right
instead of stacking them wrong.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, no, I 1000% agree with that.
I just think that you know,when I look, when we work with
investors and investors, by theway, they very much care about
what something looks like.
You know they they haveownership and they're proud to
be able to drive by something.
It's like that's my building.
You know they may have like afractional share of ownership,
but you know when they're proudabout and I think beauty is
(04:58):
universal Like people get what,something when something is
well-designed, they can see ifsomething is not well-designed
and something that is.
And so I wanted to back up andkind of talk a little bit about
you know, I think yourbackground to me is so unique in
that you're not just a straightarchitect.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, I think that's really important to understand
because I believe thatarchitecture and art really
interrelate.
And when I was in sculptingschool, we would have a live
model on a stand in the middleof the room right, and we would
have our clay that we weresculpting on a little stand in
front of us and they would turnthe model like 10% turn and keep
(05:38):
rotating the model and youwould turn your piece as you
were sculpting and you wouldkeep adding and subtracting the
clay and looking at the profile,looking what you're looking at
and while they're turning themodel, pretty soon what you're
working on became what you wereseeing, and it's a process of of
looking at something, making adecision, changing it, going
(06:01):
back and forth and having theability to have that eye.
I taught University of UtahSchool of Architecture a couple
semesters ago and I was tellingthe students that I can't teach
you how to see, and seeing takesreally traveling.
You just said you just traveled.
My wife and I just got backfrom Prague and Poland and we
(06:24):
went to Montforte in Italy andthen went to Turin and we're
gone about a month and I tell mystudents that you've got to
learn to see, and what I mean bythat is you've got to spend
hundreds of hours looking inbooks.
I remember as a young child mymother had these beautiful large
art table books.
One was Leonardo da Vinci.
It was like two and a half feet, like one foot six by about six
(06:48):
inches thick.
And I remember when I was alittle boy she would let me wash
my hands first and then I couldspend time looking through her
art books and I spent hundredsof hours looking and seeing.
And I think that's what makesarchitecture so cool is now,
when I design, I designeverything three-dimensionally
(07:08):
and I'm constantly looking at it, turning it, putting
perspective, turning the shadowson it, and I tell people all
the time it's crazy, but as Idesign, the decisions I make
just keep progressing.
It's kind of like painting.
You add a layer and then youadd another layer, another layer
, and pretty soon it startsgoing the right direction.
(07:29):
And when it goes the rightdirection you get a chill on
your back and a chill on yourspine and you know you hit it,
you know you're going the rightdirection.
I tell people all the time whendesign is right, it will feel
peaceful and good.
When it's not right, you'llkind of feel a little angst and
a little bit of attention aboutit.
And so as I work with clientsand work people, it's this
(07:49):
ability to see and that's whyyou know understanding that as
an architect, as an artist, I'mconstantly looking at what I'm
designing, rotating in 3D, andthen modify and changing and
going back and forth, and thenwhen it starts clicking, I get
so excited, I just can't stopand it just keeps flowing and
going, and so to me that's whereit makes a lot of um, big
(08:13):
difference.
But what's really cool aboutarchitecture?
Now I tell the story.
I think it's a really goodanalogy.
So, back in the, you know amason, you're a Catholic priest
or Catholic, and you hired thismason to design a cathedral for
you, and that mason would take apiece of clay and he would draw
(08:36):
a floor plan of what thecathedral would look like, and
then he would draw a section ofwhat the cathedral would look
like.
We use that archaic conventionof portraying architecture
almost to this day.
Most people don't understandplan section elevations.
(08:56):
It's something that you've gotto kind of learn.
But if I create a languagethat's a 3D language that you
can understand and see, then youand I can be on the same page
and I can help you understandwhy I'm doing and why it's
important and why this works andwhy this doesn't work.
And so, by creating everythingwe do now in 3D, it forces us to
(09:17):
look at it and create alanguage that the client and the
developer and the investor canunderstand, so they understand
why I'm making these choices andwhy we're doing it this way and
why this works and why itdoesn't work.
And so to me that's really animportant aspect of how we
design today.
It's even got to a point nowthat you know I will do
(09:39):
everything in 3D and then I'vegot a software where I'll do
animations and renderings, putmaterials on it.
But the other cool thing aboutit is there's a new program
called Revit that came out aboutseven or eight years ago, where
we actually build the entirebuilding three-dimensionally in
the computer with actual studs,bricks, concrete foundations,
(10:00):
and so it forces us asarchitects to solve the problem,
to really think through to theend.
Because, remember, there was alot of times before that I'd go
to a building and go oh my gosh,I had no idea that duct and
beam were in the same place.
You wouldn't really know untilyou were actually building it.
But since we build it today inthe computer and all 3D, we have
(10:21):
the ability to reallyunderstand what's going on.
Even our structural engineersand our mechanic engineers build
their models in 3D.
We put them inside each otherand then the software has what's
called clash detection, whereit can see if there's issues, if
there's a beam running througha duct or if there's a toilet
sitting on a beam or those kindof things.
So what it does is it reallyhas helped us, as architects,
(10:43):
become more problem solvers andproblem creators.
Yeah, a lot of times there'sthe you go to the job site and
the contractor would be would becussing the architect, sure you
know, because why?
Oh my gosh, what was?
he thinking yeah, yeah and todaywe really have an ability to if
really understand fully, yeahwhat the building's going to be
when it's being built.
And the other cool thing aboutthat is for construction, the
(11:07):
contractors today can take ourmodels because they have
building information called BIMbuilding information modeling in
them and they can plug it intotheir computers and do takeoffs
and know exactly how many studsor how much concrete or how much
sheetrock or how much glass.
So even their estimating andtheir cost takeoffs are much
more correct because all theinformation we can now give them
(11:30):
.
So it's changed how we dothings.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah and so okay.
So I love that and I love howtechnology is aiding in all of
this and there's collaboration,and then to your point, how
there's hopefully less frictionright between the architects and
the developers or in theconstruction group, because you
know you're not making misstepsin the way.
So does that mean then,everything is more efficient,
(11:53):
that we can be more costefficient, that things are
shorter?
like things take much shorterthan they used to Like.
Help me, because, again, thisis, you know, we are listening
bases, investors, and so howdoes that impact then?
Just the overall investment?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Well, a couple of things it really does.
You know, for us as architects,it costs me more.
I've got to hire more advanced,technically advanced and more
technically trained people.
You don't really have justdraftsmen anymore.
You know it used to be.
You know, in Frank LloydWright's day, if you've seen
some pictures of the studiosthey were in, there'd be a
studio with 150 men or womenleaning over a desk with lights,
(12:32):
things on their arms to keeptheir dirty hands and stuff off
the drawings, and they weredrawing everything by hand.
Wow.
And today we can do that sameamount of work with about 10
people Wow.
And today we can do that sameamount of work with about 10
people Wow.
So it's really it's.
It's.
It's helped the profession alot, but it's also made it so
it's a lot harder profession toget into, because you need less
(12:53):
people to do the work, but alsoyou need smarter people, because
you can't have just people thataren't trained, just picking up
red lines.
You got to have somebody whoreally understands architecture
and how it works.
And even when I was teaching thedesign school at the University
of Utah, I even told the guyseven if you're not doing the
design, design goes all the waythrough the project.
(13:15):
So even though I might designthe initial concept for the
project, if you're working on it, you've got to keep all these
design ideas in your mind whyyou're doing the detailing, why
you're doing other things.
So the design goes all the waythrough the project.
And then what's really coolabout it, too, is also we can
even put a virtual headset onand you can actually walk into
(13:36):
the building today wow, you knowand really look around, so
there's no way it's reallygotten kind of crazy, but it
really has helped us becomebecome better at justifying why
we're doing what we're doing,instead of saying you just got
to trust me, it's going to becool.
I can show you why it's cool andwhy it works, and why it's
worth doing it this way.
(13:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
So okay.
So now let's bring it down tokind of a real life, real world
example.
You know costs are higher nowthan they've been in a while.
You know labor is expensive,materials et cetera, interest
rates and I'm just talking about, you know, in our world of
construction and development,interest rates are such that
(14:22):
financing now is much moreexpensive than it used to be,
and so we just have to betighter and smarter all around.
How do you like, if a groupcomes to you and says, hey, we
need to build this, but this isyour budget and, by the way, we
want it to look best in class,world class?
How do you accommodate, youknow real budgets and needs and
still not sacrifice yourarchitectural principles?
I mean, what do you do todeliver on that?
(14:43):
Because that probably happensevery day.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, I'll be honest with you, that is.
You know.
That is kind of what my gift is.
I tell people all the time youknow why do we have so much work
, why do we have so much underconstruction?
That's because I have theability to look at and know what
we need to do to get it inbudget.
I'll give you a great example.
You know we've been workingwith your staff working on the
(15:05):
Freedom Commons apartments whichis a bus, building your office
building.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yes, and we've worked on it for a couple of years now
.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
And you know.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
And you know we want to push that, we want to be top
of rents, we want to deliversomething that is going to be
aspirational and hopefully pushthe rents.
But go on, go on.
But we have to make it work.
So just curious.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
So we've gone through probably 15 different versions
and renditions.
But what's great about it isI'm really quickly at pulling
together a concept and so we cancreate drawings to a schematic
level pretty quickly that thecontractor and developer then
can put some numbers to and seewhere the budget gets.
(15:43):
What's really struggling now isour price of concrete here in
Utah has almost tripled.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
So the cost of parking and parking structures
and podiums has just gottencrazy.
Yeah, the cost of parking andparking structures and podiums
has just gotten crazy, crazy,yeah, so it's forced.
You think about it.
We've gone from $18,000 a stallto $38,000 a stall for parking
structures, wow, and so it's oneof those things that's made it
very, very difficult to makeespecially apartments work.
Because you do apartments, youthink about it.
(16:12):
Every bed needs to have aparking stall.
Yeah, yeah.
So if you're doing 225 units,you might have 450 beds.
Yeah.
Well, all of a sudden you havethat many parking stalls and
then you double the cost of thatparking stall.
How do you make that pencil?
Yeah, and so really interesting.
So we've been having theopportunity to really try to
think out of the box and reallytry to think of different
(16:32):
solutions and different ways ofdoing things.
And so I think what makes thiswork really well is the ability
to 3D model it, look at it, givethe client something to
visually look at, but then giveto the estimators enough
information that they can do ajustified guess to make sure
we're going the right direction.
And I think that's the key andthat's what we've been doing a
(16:55):
lot of now is designing, workingwith the estimators, because
what happens is you know, it'san interesting world we're
living in right now.
You think about the cost ofmoney, and the cap rate is kind
of the amount of investmentyou're going to make on your
investment kind of thing, right?
Well, what's happening rightnow is that banks are offering,
(17:17):
if you do a T-bill, you can get5.5% on your money without any
risk, right?
So if you're going to invest insomething, it's going to be a
two to three year payout, right?
You want to at least get maybea six, maybe a six and a half,
maybe even a seven.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Seven is the going minimum, but yes, yes, yeah, so
you need that to make it work?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
or why would you invest in something and not
knowing that it might not payoff?
and it might be a couple ofyears Right.
So the challenge is, with thecost of construction so high,
the cost of money so high, Ithink that's the trick.
And so it's thinking out of thebox, thinking differently and
then creating scenarios veryquickly that we can put numbers
(17:57):
to and start steering ourselvesin the right direction.
And so, on the FreedomApartments, we've really gone
back and forth from doing twolevels of podium parking with
the podium with the buildings ontop, to saying, oh gosh, that's
38,000 installed.
That's pushing us out of thebox.
So what's something else wecould do?
How can we make it work?
(18:17):
And so we've come up with asolution now where we've got a
standalone parking structure inthe middle, because a standalone
parking structure is cheaperthan the podium parking
structures, and then kind ofplugging the buildings into it,
and I think we're going in areally cool direction.
I think we're finding solutions.
But that's what it takes inthis market.
It does you.
But that's what it takes inthis market.
(18:38):
It does you know it's crazy.
I've got about $600 millionright now under construction,
but it's all stuff that wasfinanced and budgeted before.
Before the rates it was a year,year and a half ago, even though
it's under construction now.
Yeah, and that's what peopledon't understand as investors.
Yeah, if you want to be underconstruction in six months to a
year, we need to start right now.
(18:59):
We have to design it, get itbudgeted, get the entitlements,
which are the approvals from thecity.
Well, that's the other thingtoo right Cities are not.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I mean, you're on their timetable, so that delays
things.
Yeah, you've got that wholeelement.
That's.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
The tricky part is that you know, all of a sudden
the markets let's say in fourmonths, five months, the markets
kick in, the election's over,the rates come down.
There's like $22 trillionsitting on the sidelines.
People are ready, there's a tonof need.
So all of a sudden that breaksloose and you guys call me, say
Jory, let's go.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Well, we're six months to a year before you're
going to put sticks in theground.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And so that's where I feel right now we're starting
to get busy again, becausepeople are saying you know what?
We got to have things teed upfor the next three or four
months, because that's whenthings are going to start
cranking again.
And in order to tee them up,we've got to start designing it,
we've got to work with the city, we've got to start figuring
out how it's going to work, whatit's going to cost, start
getting the approvals, gettingthe budgets figured out.
(19:58):
And so it's tricky, becauseright now people think well,
gosh, that's four or five, sixmonths away, but it takes us at
least four or five months to getthe project approved.
You see that things are turning.
It's almost too late to jump in.
You already kind of missed theboat a little bit.
(20:27):
So it's one thing we're seeing alot of.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, we really believe that this time period
will be a vintage year for realestate.
The numbers don't necessarilypencil that, but the supply and
demand, and actually it seguesso well into what I wanted to
talk about next, which is, youknow, this economy and
lifestyles have created, youknow, what we believe is more of
(20:52):
a generation of renters.
Right, Today's, those folksthat are entering into family
formation stages and whatnot aredelayed, you know, by a decade.
Almost two People are, you know, valuing experience over, like,
ownership.
We have more renters by choicethan ever before.
It's not because of income, butbecause they don't necessarily
(21:14):
want to be strapped with amortgage and obviously mortgage
rates are such that it's not asaccretive to them.
So, you know, we talk about, ifthat's the case, we need to as
a real estate.
You know, investment firm, lookat more multifamily, look at
more residential.
That includes single familyrentals.
And there's, you know, nowwe're catering to a whole
(21:36):
different type of renter whichreally values experiences.
Right, they want to live inspaces that are conducive to
their lifestyle.
They care about design, right,Like nowadays.
You know, because I'm anInstagram person, I Instagram, I
scroll, I look, so I am exposedto so much more design than I
(21:59):
ever have in my life.
Like I follow interiordesigners, I follow architects,
I you know, and obviously in thebusiness that I am but now it's
like, oh, I don't have to livein someplace ugly, I can live in
a beautiful place like thatperson.
And so now there's you know,when people choose, they can
choose beautiful spaces.
You know when people choose,they can choose beautiful spaces
(22:20):
.
And so, anyway, I'd love tohear your thoughts on I imagine
other groups are approaching youwith this like we need to think
more thoughtfully about thespaces we need to think through,
like you know, working fromhome, we need to think through
the different amenities that wewant to bring.
Tell me how that has changed orevolved over the last decade or
several years and how that'simpacting the way you're
(22:40):
approaching, let's say, any kindof residential design.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Well, it's really interesting.
I'll give you a littlebackground.
So 10 years ago I've done overnine million square feet of
office.
So I've done a crap littleoffice.
10, 15 years ago the interiordesign of the offices was pretty
basic.
We'd do some corporate ceilings, nice furniture, nice carpeting
, a nice lobby, but it waspretty basic.
(23:06):
It was nice, it was elegant,but it wasn't anything crazy.
Then the dot-com boom happenedand all of a sudden you had all
these young guys, young womenand they're making these
incredible businesses thatwanted their spaces to speak
about them, and it changedeverything on office.
All of a sudden you hadcafeterias and places to hang
(23:26):
out and places to play ball andplay games and, you know,
full-on gyms and people werespending a ton of money to
create experiences for theiremployees to want to be at their
space and because there wassuch competition to grab these
people, they were trying toreally create this environment.
These people really wanted tobe there.
(23:47):
Now let's fast forward.
We've got the pandemic, we'vegot all these things that are
going to happen and it's kind ofchanged office when all of a
sudden, office people or somepeople are working from home and
some people are working, youknow, in our office.
We work Monday through Thursdayand everybody doesn't come in
on Friday, saturday, sunday.
Right.
I work 10 to 3 and work fromhome most of the time if I want
to.
We've kind of changed how wedeal with that.
(24:09):
Yeah.
The other thing that we'vechanged is we learned that
people are willing to live in alot less space if they can feel
like they're living in a resort,yep.
If they feel like they'reliving out of four seasons, yeah
, and there's an incredible pooland there's incredible areas
and space and beautiful areas tohang out and do things that
people are much more about.
(24:31):
I'd rather travel and be goneand do other things than to have
a three-bedroom home in Draper.
Yeah, and it's changed howpeople see things.
They've also seen people who'vegotten way upside down because
of the up and downs of themortgages, and so people are
looking and saying, well, gosh,that doesn't make any sense to
me, yeah, well, and they caninvest that money too, right,
(24:55):
exactly, yeah, it's a wholedifferent mindset.
But what we're doing?
We just finished a cool projectcalled Holiday Hills, or it's
called the Grandeur.
It's over on the old CottonwoodMall site.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I know it exactly Right by my neighborhood.
And I've been walking, I walkedthat area.
So which one did you do themultifamily there?
What did you guys do?
We did the multifamily.
What did you guys do?
We did the multifamily.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
We did Block D.
We did the big building there,okay, and so it's got the two
levels of parking.
Then it's got four levels ofapartments and the top level is
high-end condos.
Okay, it's got some restaurantsand stuff and the amenities for
that place are freaking rockstar.
The condos on top were vanillashell.
They were selling for $1,000 asquare foot and sold out in two
(25:36):
weeks.
Crazy, because people aresaying I'm willing to live in an
apartment kind of setting if Ican have a terrible pool and gym
and concierge and all that kindof stuff.
So people are saying I'd muchrather have that kind of
lifestyle where I can be moreflexible and do more things.
And so we've looked at it.
How can we bring that kind ofenvironment?
(25:58):
You know, as a young architect,when I first got out of school
with my degree in sculpture, Igot hired to work in a firm that
did all the sculpture andtheming for all the hotels in
Vegas.
Oh yes, I saw that yeah like.
Mandalay.
Bay.
Yeah, I did Luxor, mandalay Bay,paris, okay, and being an
(26:19):
architect and a sculptor, I waslike the dream come true for
these guys.
Yeah, because we had 25sculptors back in the shop that
were sculpting things.
And then I was the interfacebetween all these high-end
designers, like Dougal Designout of LA and Jeffrey Beers out
of New York, and I was workingwith these world-class designers
doing all this crazy designstuff, and so I saw how taking
(26:43):
an idea and a theme and creatinga space that people want to be
in really draws people andbrings people there.
And so as we started looking,trying to apply that more to
apartment living and to more ofthat, or condo living and
apartment living what things dopeople want to see?
What do they want to do?
So I think having those thingsand they make people everything
(27:06):
from a dog wash to places wherethere's been, like bike repair
centers, part of the apartment.
We've done things where you'llhave full on theater that you
can go reserve for your familyto come down and see a movie in
a theater.
You know we've got full onareas where you can reserve it
(27:27):
to have your birthday party withyour whole family there.
Maybe your apartment's only 600square feet, but there's a 2000
square foot great room with TVsand a kitchen and you rent that
space for your apartment's only600 square feet.
But there's a 2,000 square footgreat room with TVs and a
kitchen and you rent that spacefor your family's birthday or
something.
And so by getting them thosespaces, they're much willing to
live in a smaller space becausethere's so many other places
they can hang out and be.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Did you build pickleball courts?
That's my big question.
Yes, it's a little trickythough, because there's been a
lot of um stuff about noise andso like on the freedom, but they
do like the I heard they likeaddress it with like a felt um,
felt paddles, and well it's more, but it's more that it's so fun
(28:09):
that people are pretty vocalwhen they're playing.
Oh gotcha.
So it's less about the pingingand the no, it's more about what
it's so fun.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah , yeah, no, that kind of stuff.
So, like on the FreedomApartments, we're actually
putting the tickle ball courtson top of the parking structure.
Yeah, yeah, so they're out ofthe way so that they aren't
going to be noisy for theresidents.
Because when you're in these um, these, these um deck and
(28:37):
rooftop plazas or areas that arein between the hotel, in
between hotels or apartments, um, you want to have a sense of
some privacy, sure, a sense ofsome noise control, sure?
Um, you don't want to havepeople outside your window
partying, you know?
So you want to.
You want to create these.
We actually create these nodesand pockets where people can
gather that are somewhat moreprivate.
So it's almost like theselittle cabanas, these little
(28:57):
gathering spots and hanging outareas where there are these
really cool spaces and yourapartment opens up to the
amenity space.
How do you create some sense ofdivision between that amenity
(29:19):
space and your deck and yourapartment?
So we've done things we'll do,like a three-foot planter wall.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Just to soften that and have.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
The people that have their private deck have a little
bit of sense of this is mine, alittle bit of privacy and those
kinds of things.
So it's balancing all of thatbut giving everybody what they
want.
You know, making places to dooutdoor yoga has really been
really big and places to go.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Health and wellness is a big theme right now.
Yeah, absolutely Big thingright now.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
And so I think those are things that you do, but I
think also by providing reallygood design in the unit, really
making sure the space is notwasted If you've got 600 square
feet, that every inch of it isworking and cool and feels good,
we will do things.
We'll lay furniture in and do3D renderings of the space just
(30:09):
to make sure we figure it outand get it right.
We've even done things.
We've given them a little bitmore height.
Instead of like an 8, eightfoot or a seven foot six ceiling
, we might do a nine footceiling to give them a little
more height, a little morevolume, those kinds of things.
But I think those are reallyimportant aspects of it all to
make it all work.
And the other thing that'sreally important with these
kinds of developments is makingsure they're connected, do other
(30:29):
things they can do.
If I was living in a downtownapartment and I could walk to a
really cool restaurant or a baror a really cool bookstore,
having that connection and thatflexibility is what really
creates neighborhoods.
Ninth and Ninth is a real goodexample of this.
There's other areas downtownthat really made that happen.
It's not just living in theapartment.
(30:51):
How do we connect them to theneighborhood and create a whole
sense of neighborhood within anapartment setting?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, no, I love the walkability piece.
Like you mentioned, 9th and 9thand for those who don't know
Salt Lake as well, it's justkind of an eclectic neighborhood
.
But, as you were saying before,I'm guilty of what you just
mentioned about resort likeamenities appealing to people,
because I lived in earlier on inmy life.
I lived in Southern Californiaand I lived in a box apartment
(31:24):
but the resort or sorry, thepool was absolutely drop dead
gorgeous.
Like you said, it was like itcame out of a Four Seasons and
so and I paid a lot of moneyjust to live there because I
wanted to be at that pool everySaturday and exactly Fast
forward and that was.
You know, I'm dating myself, butthat was 20 years ago and now
(31:44):
you know I want my living spaceto be that way.
You know my home and etc.
That's just different.
But I'm also the generationit's like where you scrimp and
you save and you buy a home andyou stay in it forever and
that's how you build wealth andthen you sell it whatever.
But this generation and I getit, I get it they probably can
make more money if they rent andthen they invest that money
(32:06):
into other things and then theycan be nomadic.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
They've seen their parents struggle.
I mean, my parents had.
You know.
I grew up in a house inKalamazoo, michigan that was
Henderson Castle.
That was 18,000 square feet,had a ballroom on the third
floor, you know.
They lived there and then theymoved here and bought a big
house down in Provo.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I'm sorry your parents lived you grew up in an
18,000 square foot home.
Is that what you just said?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Yeah, it was cool.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
It was built in 1860.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, it was cool.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
It was built in 1860.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
That's not normal.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
You know that right.
That's not normal.
You know that right.
I know it was on six acres.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Six acres in downtown Kalamazoo, okay.
And it was built by a guy whomade uniforms for the Civil War
Okay, he made a crap load ofmoney.
It was their arms and regaliacompany and it was called the
Henderson Castle.
It was a Victorian, 1860s,1870s castle.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
And the ballroom on the third floor was really cool
but it had a little outcroppingoff it that I made my art studio
and then it had servants'quarters and that's where I
lived, in the servants' quarterson the third floor.
But on my senior year in highschool we had a Christmas
cotillion in the ballroom at myhouse Wow.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
And it was in the yearbook.
It was pretty funny.
That's amazing, I think I— butwhat happens?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
is people live in those kind of big houses and my
parents in their old age did areverse mortgage and had nothing
left.
I mean, we've seen our parentssuffer through having these mini
mansions and seeing how itreally doesn't make sense and I
think the younger generation islooking at that and saying you
know, I don't want that lotRight, right.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
I want to experience.
I want to go to differentcountries.
I want to kind of move aroundand so long as I have my nice
resort pool and a pickleballcourt, I'm good, exactly Okay,
well, I, good, okay, well, I,you know, super, appreciate that
, because that's very helpful.
I wanted to talk a little bitabout some trends that we're
(34:03):
seeing.
Well, we've been talking alittle bit about office.
You know, I think in certainmarkets and we know class A
office is still, you know, stillreally works.
In fact that's where people areflocking to.
So then you've got these olderoffice buildings that are more,
you know, they're not asinhabited.
Obviously it depends by market,but there is this trend to, you
(34:26):
know, reuse, renovate.
You know PEG has done a couple.
We bought a building indowntown Phoenix and we
converted it an office buildinginto a hotel, and then we've
also converted an officebuilding, a smaller one down in
Mill Creek, into apartments.
Neither project was easy orstraightforward.
(34:49):
Nation are trying to do becauseyou've got these old historic
buildings that are sitting onprime real estate in these urban
downtown areas and they aredoing the conversions right now.
So I know there's a big onegoing on up in Salt Lake
downtown.
I haven't followed it as wellthat Heinz has been doing, but
I'm just curious what have youbeen seeing?
(35:09):
Are you involved in that asmuch?
What are your thoughts?
Because that is definitely atheme that we're seeing right
now.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, we are still getting involved in that.
It's one of those things wherepeople are asking us to look at
it Because, you know, withoffice changing its dynamics
quite a bit, I think we'rere-looking at things.
I know for a while Peg wasbuying old resident inns that
were just deteriorating andfalling apart and converting
them into apartments becausethey were, they were close.
(35:36):
You know that they had goodbones yeah great, and they the
whole um, the whole idea ofresidence inns kind of changed.
They used to be kind of littleapartments you'd rent yeah and
now they've kind of made theminto a part hotels with a with
more of a kitchen amenity, andso their their marketing has
changed and their long-term stayidea has changed.
They had tons of these oldthree-story walk-ups, garden
(36:03):
style things that were kind ofbad and ugly, but taking those
and retrofitting was really abrilliant thing that PEG did.
So I think they peg for a longtime has had foresight.
you know, one thing I appreciateabout peg as a development
company is they they have to bedeveloping and making good
(36:24):
choices to keep working yeahthere are some developers out
there who don't need to reallyworry about making money every
day because they have a largeportfolio or they have a large
bankroll, but Peg has always hadto keep the ball rolling.
A bunch of young, smart guysare like okay, how do we shuck
(36:44):
and jive to adapt to this market?
And that's something that I'vealways appreciated is that it's
kind of like for us asarchitects.
my payroll is like 400,000 amonth and I've got to need a lot
of architecture to keep allthese guys fed guys and gals fed
.
And so to understand thatsometimes we've got to rethink
(37:06):
how we're doing things, thinkout of the box, try some
different ideas and thoughts,look at property differently,
you know.
So I think that's really a bigthing.
What we're doing a lot of, too,now is looking at different
properties more in the downtownarea and tearing down a lot of
small old little houses anddoing some cool.
(37:28):
I guess two real cool productsthat are in the old baseball
district One's called Traditionand one's called so I that are
just studio apartments withreally cool amenities, um some
cool retail stuff, but in thosemore downtown areas and trying
to in that transition from, youknow, really um bad, depleted
(37:49):
housing, trying to bring someenergy and stuff back to those
areas.
Yeah, that's been really big.
We're doing quite a bit of thatright now, which has really
kind of changed how we do things.
But I think, having the abilityto look at what's happening and,
instead of being scared by it,move with it, that's what I
think Peg's been doing is saying, hey, right now, maybe this
(38:11):
podium, two levels podium, fivelevel, stick, which you're
seeing built all over.
Maybe that's not counselingright now, but what else is?
Yeah.
And what else can we look at?
Yeah.
And what else can we make work?
Because you don't want to sitand just wait and hope that it's
all going to go back the way itwas.
Because it's probably not.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, no, definitely.
Things have changed and I lovethat you're helping us figure
that out.
I've heard a lot about thisproject and we want to move
forward.
We know that it's the rightlocation.
We know that it's the righttime.
It's just how do we make itwork?
Speaker 2 (38:47):
So we really appreciate having you.
You talked about your love ofInstagram, those kind of things.
You know we've actually doneprojects now where we're doing
things to make them, so they'reInstagram worthy.
Yeah.
We're doing things, you have to.
We have to.
I just did a really cool muraldown at Trolley Square where we
recreated like you're lookingback in time and looking through
this mural and you're seeingthe old trolley cars and they've
(39:10):
got, we've got the trolley carsand the conductors and the
people are all painted in thistrompe l'oeil which looks
three-dimensional, so it lookslike it's going back in space.
And then there's a conductor infront who would be conducting
one of the trains and there's aplace you can stand, take a
picture of yourself by thisconductor with this trompe
(39:31):
l'oeil train in the background,and then people are posting that
and posting about trolley.
At our Holiday Hills we havethese large murals on the
outside of the parking garageswhere we've done different kinds
of art that people can stand infront of, take pictures of and
tag themselves in it.
It's getting that buzz that theyounger generation says, oh my
(39:53):
gosh, I want to check that outor I want to see that or I want
to be in that.
You've seen those big wingsthat they've done on buildings
where people will stand in frontof them and post the big wings?
Oh yeah, you got to have wingssomewhere or something, some
sort of background, but the ideais is how do you create that
Instagram buzz with yourapartment project so that people
(40:14):
say this is just different?
Yeah.
And I want to be part of this.
This is cool.
Yeah.
So I think that's a reallyimportant thing.
So, as our amenities, as thedesign, the things we do, we
want to make sure that peoplethink it's cool and post about
it, right?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Right, right, right, which the traditional you know.
You know my, my, some of theguys may not fully appreciate
the power of Instagram, right,because they're not necessarily
on it that's not their jam, butI try to explain to them.
But your renters are, andactually Cameron's really great,
he loves social media and he'slike he knows the importance of
it.
But just as you described, it'sthat extra layer that you know
(40:51):
we didn't have a few years agoeven right, that wasn't as
important.
But now every little piece isimportant, down to the
Instagrammable worthiness of aproject.
So I love that you understandthat and that you incorporate
that into your designs.
Okay, well, no, listen.
(41:11):
As I said, I was super excitedto speak with you.
You've kind of reiteratedthings I've always thought, but
it's nice to hear it fromsomeone who's been in going
through it.
I wanted to just leave with onelast question to you.
You know we're in a challengingreal estate environment.
Real estate assets valuationsare down, mainly because of the
(41:33):
things I described before Fromyour vantage point, and you work
with so many different groups.
What are just some last nuggetsthat you would share with
investors today as it relates tothe developers that you work
with, the different projectsthat you're working with across
the region and nationally.
What are just some thoughts.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, I had a friend tell me once.
He said, jory, only invest inthings you understand or things
you can control.
And I always thought that wasreally good advice, because I
don't have a lot of money in thestock market, because I just
don't get it.
And so I think, as an investor,make sure you put two things
invest in things you understandand put smart people around you.
(42:16):
Yeah.
And that's what Peg has done isthey've hired the smartest minds
anywhere in Utah, probably fromaround the United States, to be
around them and don't be scaredof having somebody smarter than
you around you, oh no.
You know and have them, and soI think that is finding the
right people and putting theright people around you.
Oh no, you know, yeah, and havethem, and so I think that is
finding the right people andputting the right people around
you.
And then I've had to make surethat you understand what you're
(42:40):
investing in.
Yeah.
Is it really exceeding my mind?
Yeah, because once youunderstand that, then you
understand how it's going towork and how it's going to flow
and which ones are really goodones, which ones aren't really
good ones.
But to me that's kind of howwe've done it.
And then I think it's alsounderstanding the team.
What we've done and this iswhere we found a ton of success
(43:01):
is we have a team, we have PEG,we have Beecher Walker, we have
Hunt Electric, we have CCIMechanical, we have groups that
we've done hundreds of millionsof dollars of work together with
.
So we kind of know what toexpect and we know what we're
going to get, and I think havingthe right team together makes
all the difference.
And so look at the team,because that's really what
(43:25):
you're buying when you'reinvesting.
You're investing in people, andmake sure that the right people
are there and the right team isthere, because that is how
you're going to ensure thatyou're getting out of the
investment what you need.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Yeah, again, we are so grateful to have bright minds
like yourselves that havehelped to innovate and to make
an impact as we've built alongthe Wasatch Front and beyond,
and so we're so grateful thatyou know to have a team member
like yourself, like BeecherWalker, to help us on this
journey.
So maybe we'll have apost-mortem after our freedom
(43:59):
project.
What do?
You think Okay cool, okay, sothank you, listeners, for
joining.
We so appreciate you um fromthe peaks of the mountain West
until next time.
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