In this podcast, we speak to David Gourley, Head of Learning and Teaching Enhancement at Perth College. The topic of discussion focusses around providing creative and engaging learning experiences in a post COVID era. David shares views on what this means in practice, the impact that this can have on students, and a range of considerations for lecturers when developing approaches in this area.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast.
The purpose of this podcast is to bring the
force with the key topics of conversation
in relation to learning and teaching,
to discuss, to breakdown aspects
of practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to
integrate these into our daily practice.
Today I'm delighted to be joined by
David Gorley, head of learning and
(00:26):
teaching enhancement at Perth College.
David, how are you? I'm excellent.
How are you? I'm good, thank you.
Not bad for a Monday.
Uh, how's things going?
Your collagen obviously very busy
so far or absolutely very, very,
very busy just trying to get
every student finished and and
successfully achieving their subjects.
(00:47):
This has been a very kind of
interesting and challenging year with
the obviously the COVID pandemic.
No, I think it's the same.
Like the same really across the rest
of the UK and the rest of the world of
wonders with every colleague I talked to,
you know,
has some kind of real challenges in in
the students are always at the front
and center of everything we're trying to do,
which is really interesting because
(01:07):
obviously today's topic is really all about.
So it's about looking at how.
The pandemic how COVID has has,
unless the affected our practice,
but also moving forward.
About how we place creative and engaging
learning at the heart of everything we do,
which I know is the topic of really
kind of interested and keen on.
(01:28):
So I guess just to start with.
What do we mean by that?
What do we mean by creative
and engaging learning, David?
It's all about using imaginative
approaches to making learning more
more interesting and more effective.
If a student doesn't engage
in their learning 100%,
(01:50):
we start off behind the curve.
So it's all about creating a great
learning experience that makes the
students TuneIn and switch on.
To meet them. Get to a bed,
come into college or switch on their their
computer and come in virtually and learn.
(02:10):
That's very interesting.
And how is that gone in the last 14 months
and your experience in your course,
I guess to kind of provide a bit of context,
everyone has spoken to and having been
in college at start of the coded pandemic
was very much a every day was different.
It was pure Survival mode initially.
It's the how do we flip whatever's
happening face to face to online?
And I guess that's then evolved
(02:31):
significantly over time because we've
just got more used to it and our
students have got more used to it and
our staff have got more used to it.
Has that been the same, um,
experience for you and your college?
Absolutely it, you know,
different moments require different methods,
and where we've been successful is where
we've we've looked at reimagining,
learning A and.
(02:55):
Trying to work with the students to
find out what their challenges are
they in order that we can encourage
the learning to happen,
but not just not just learning,
but deeper learning.
No, not really interested.
And I guess the key question that
everybody will be asking is great.
I want to be creative.
I want to be engaging. How do I do it?
(03:15):
Where do I start?
So I guess what's your advice or
what's your views on that?
I think it it starts off with your
own personal mindset, OK?
You know how how you're feeling, you know?
And being reflective in yourself as
an educator, as an online educator,
as a face to face educator,
(03:36):
where are your strengths?
Where are your weaknesses?
You know,
how do you best make learning happen?
No, that's interesting,
I guess.
When talking again,
I when looking really the sector
from a different perspective,
last 12 months it's been I'm gonna
say a lot of noise and a lot of
(03:56):
new information and a lot of a lot
of new ideas which is fantastic.
But at the same time that could
be quite overwhelming you know
for lectures and for managers.
So, so talk about kind of,
but you wouldn't kind of what works for
you and for your students and I guess, yeah.
So is there any advice or any kind
of tips or kind of principles that
you may have come across that kind
of that provides that creative?
(04:19):
Environment or that engaging
learning environment.
Absolutely, it's about.
Even though you're delivering online,
it's about trying to keep the learning
interactive and active for the students
so that so that the students aren't just
sitting back and listening to to you.
Because as we all know that, you know,
(04:41):
if we lecture the students take in about 5%,
if they read something online
they take on about 10%.
But if they're doing more active learning,
then that's the key.
So it's, it's, it's all about mixing it up.
Doing doing a bit of kind of a introductory
kind of lecturing at the start,
(05:02):
but it's all about.
Being inclusive in your teaching,
but being active.
Having having the students perform tasks.
That make them reason,
that make them think, but actually,
most importantly, make them do things.
Yeah,
really interesting and can a lot
(05:23):
of conversation codes recently
been around learning design and
around kind of reflecting on,
on, on,
on the makeup of our curriculum and how we
deliver and how we develop because yeah,
initially,
you know,
especially the start of COVID,
there's a lot of two hour
online sessions where where the
perception was you had to lecture,
you had to.
To to transfer information as opposed to
providing those interactive experiences.
(05:45):
And that was more I think,
because again,
I'm talking kind of broad brush
and large majority here,
people didn't quite know how to do this,
didn't know how to provide
those interactive spaces online
because it was all so new.
There's been a lot of learning
over the last 12 months around.
You know about how we can use
different bits of technology or
different elements within teams
or or different platforms that
(06:06):
people use to provide this.
So I guess what are your thoughts on there?
Are any ideas or any examples that
you've seen actually have worked
really well for some lectures
as to how they have done this?
How will they provide those
interactive experiences for students?
Well, I I think very,
very much we need to strip things
down and reconsider what we're
trying to do in the classroom.
(06:27):
We're not trying to teach.
We're actually trying to
make learning happen.
The teaching is the process,
the learning is the product, as it were.
So we need to strip things down
and. Looking to see right how
for my particular subject,
for this particular topic,
for this particular learning outcome,
(06:48):
can we strip things away?
And what is the best way
to make learning happen?
And that will that will vary
from subject to subject and
and with a lot of subjects,
you're going to be constrained by
the warding bodies a criteria or by
by virtue of the fact that you your
students need to learn a specific.
(07:10):
Competency a certain way.
Putting that aside,
when most subjects are,
there is a lot of freedom and how you can,
how you can make learning happen,
how you can make this the students.
Create their own learning.
With a learner centered approach where
where they actually create meaning and
(07:32):
understanding and that can run at all levels.
It's not just for the higher levels,
it can, it can work at every level.
As I say there,
there is some,
there are some small exceptions,
but moving forward that's what we need to do.
We, we need,
we need to almost strip it all back.
Think,
right,
what are we trying to achieve
(07:53):
today and what's the best way to
do it and what tools do we have?
We've got technology.
But we shouldn't be relying on
technology for technology sake and
and we shouldn't be a be afraid
to A to mix cut an edge electronic
electrical technology with more basic
(08:13):
but effective teaching strategies.
No I think yeah that's that's
fascinating and very much agrees
with kind of my thoughts and views
in terms of first keeping it
really simple everyone I've spoken
to has very different views on.
What digital means?
But to really pair that back and come
back to as you said there, I learn.
(08:33):
I sent an experience of actually
what's right for the students.
How would we make a really
simple and I guess the other?
Uh,
interesting type of conversation
is there's been a lot of narrative
recently in the last two to
three months around how we bring
digital into the classroom.
You know,
I guess my criticism of that is
(08:54):
in that some people are of the the
narrative is rather than some people.
The narrative is that you should
be bringing what you've been doing
online into a traditional classroom,
which for me isn't.
It's not the case whatsoever.
It's how we look at our kind of
learning design or more broadly.
And use the best bit of working remotely,
the best bits of face to face and
(09:14):
how we use that to complement each other,
provide that learning experience.
I know you've had quite the
experience of this in the past,
So what are your thoughts there?
Again,
it's it's looking at stripping
it back and say, right,
what are we trying to make
the students learn today?
What knowledge and skills are they
trying to do within the face to face
(09:34):
classroom on that particular day?
And what is the best tool to use?
How can digitally technology
give us an advantage?
A good example is is is in the
use of 3D technology in the past.
I'm a. I'm a chemist by training,
and I've taught chemistry, uh,
(09:56):
using a 3D graphics where I've taken
people into the that the active site of
a drug targets and showing people how
drugs bind to the active site of the
target using a 3D computer technology.
Something that you can't explain
(10:16):
in the blackboard. You know,
something that that you know is really,
really, really hard.
Explain in words,
but by by using technology to
overcome that visualization problem.
Because you know what I'm trying to show
them isn't microscopic, it's a it's.
(10:37):
Nanoscopic.
So it's using technology when
there's a clear advantage and
it gives you a clear clear.
Learning opportunity.
No, you're absolutely right there and
and again there's a perception it's,
it's making me sound,
(10:58):
it's not meant to be.
There's a perception across the sector
around you've got to use technology
before XY and Z and to be innovative
it's got informed technology.
But no you're absolutely right that's
around how can you use technology to
support and enhance the curriculum
to enhance that learning experience
and as you kind of shared at the
start if technology has a time to
aid and engagement and fantastic
that's the hook straight away.
(11:20):
There is memory retention and
recall and so on and so forth,
then fantastic there as well.
So going back to the kind
of creative and engaging,
you know that's quite a broad
topic and I guess what are your,
your thoughts and values moving
forward into a world whereby we
can choose what our curriculum
(11:40):
looks like in terms of income.
In contrast the last 14 months
where it's being forced,
everyone's had to be remote moving
forward where we can choose we're
kind of keeping really simple,
but other any other kind of key points
to consider to, to provide that.
Creative and that engaging learning
experience where there's a blend of
face to face and online delivery.
(12:02):
The most important thing is to
inspire the learners to, as I say,
to switch them on, to make,
to make them actively engage.
And we need to be inclusive, we need to.
Every class has their extroverts and
every class has their introverts.
A some people just want to come to class.
(12:25):
Set the back of the class,
soak up all the knowledge you know,
go home,
study their notes and things like that.
That's perfect.
But how we can make the experience
better for them as well by by using
these technological levers to make a
more inclusive learning environment
for the people that are shy,
for the people,
(12:45):
for the people that don't necessarily
push themselves forward and things like that.
So it's, it's, it's,
it's using,
it's being creative to reach out to everyone.
No, I didn't.
Wasn't a lot of the topics prior to
today have been around relationships,
you know, and I think again personally.
The the last 14 months has really shone
(13:06):
through from a lectures perspective
about how important relationships
are and how they're curated.
And that links back to what
you're seeing there is really
it's about knowing your learners.
In order to meet the easier learners,
you've got to know your learners and
kind of how they work or or what their
what their needs are as to how you
can include them in their practice.
What are the,
can I touch upon the word levers there?
(13:26):
I guess what are the other levers that
you believe no that will help us be
achieve these effective learning experiences?
The most important lever is the lecture
that themselves, it's their skills,
it's the it's the lecturer
realizing what they're good at.
You know what they're what
(13:47):
their weaknesses are,
what they need to develop a,
and how they can reach out.
You know effectively to the students
to to make learning happen.
A there's also the the use of other resources
using external influencers to inspire people,
(14:09):
from industry entrepreneurs,
a subject specialists.
Now, with with a digital
technologists to technology,
we can reach out across the
world to various people.
We we you know,
you can get people a subject to experts in
San Diego beaming into your your classroom.
(14:30):
Person and things like that,
you know, we we need to think,
you know?
Globally,
as far as how we can influence
our students because now with the
online learning distance is no
object and you can easily get,
you know, guest lecturers in from,
you know, wherever in the world.
And as I say, it's this keyword inspire.
(14:52):
No, I think that's, yeah,
some really interesting points.
And again I've heard different
kinds of different approaches
the culture used to work with.
We had something called the big
picture and also started every session
with the big picture and that just
came back to the inspiring and the hook.
Why am I here?
What am I going to learn today and how
does that help me in my next steps now,
which I think is really important,
(15:13):
what other elements?
So we're talking quite ideal world here.
I mean we're not actually that's a bit harsh,
but these are fundamental things.
Lectures might also say, well,
actually I want to do that.
What else do I need to do I?
How do I start?
Because election can be quite a
lonely role in terms of the working
by themselves typically is when
there was a year with students.
So kind of where do we start
and how else do we do as David?
(15:34):
Well,
you've got in one it's it's the power
of collaboration and synergy working
together with others in their field,
other lecturers,
a people in industry and things like that.
Because one of the main challenges
we we have in college is just
now is that we always try and
reinvent the wheel as far as teaching
(15:55):
material you know a ideas but by working
in collaboration and as I say going back
to the the idea that every lecturer.
Strengths and weaknesses by working
in in in collaborative partnerships
and teams you know we can maximize
the synergy A and a support a,
(16:16):
take the load off work better you know
by working collaboratively not just
within our own colleges but across the
network and even longitudinally and
laterally globally in order to to share
best practice harness best practice.
And give the students the best
(16:37):
possible experience we can get.
So it's all about,
I mean collaboration is the key
and working together, you know,
that's another very,
very important lever and you know.
Over the years, you know,
I've you collaboration is hard.
And so these projects need to be well,
well planned and but they must be based
(17:00):
on trust and respect so that when you
start out that you know what's in it for you,
you know what's in it for your collaborators.
But most importantly,
you know that the end goals are
an inspiring student experience.
You just throw my end goal.
You're absolutely right.
That's what's got to come back
to at the end and I think there's
a bit of work to be done.
I think there's a real appetite.
(17:20):
I'm not sure what this kind
of mirrors your experience,
but I think a lot of people have
been a lot more willing to either
support others or to find out
more because they've had to,
because this has been quite an
alien world for a lot of lectures.
Is that the same experience as well?
Absolutely, absolutely.
It the sense of community and collaboration
and support has been overwhelming,
(17:42):
but also the sense of,
you know, a innovation and a,
you know, being taking risks.
A I think people,
because they felt, you know,
they were really under the cosh,
they felt that some people thought they
could take risks, they could be bold.
They they you know,
they they thought they they could take risks.
(18:03):
They weren't afraid to fail,
you know, because of the circumstances
and we we had to do something.
So people were doing bold things.
Yeah.
I think the key bit moving forward
is to curate those spaces,
as you've said there with
lecturers and with others.
Is not across a couple
(18:24):
of levels of monography.
Firstly,
it's to show or provide
that space for lectures,
to understand how others have done it,
because we're just, we're not before.
It's quite lonely being a lecturer.
You only know what you know,
unless you speak to other lecturers
to understand how they have done it.
And the next bit then is is really
changing mindset and and and this is
I'm a big believer in this in terms of.
(18:44):
For me,
technology can be used to make
us a lot more efficient.
What I mean by that is looking
back like curriculum
and think well, well what do
I need to teach face to face,
what can be taught online.
And that doesn't mean that something
that is lesser can be taught online,
but how we really harness those face
to face interactions and face to face
experiences to make that learning happen,
(19:06):
to consolidate the knowledge
that's being taught online,
but to really develop those knowledge,
those skills and those behaviors
in that face to face environment,
you know, so I think if we're
if as a sector where we think.
Differently about this,
we think actually how can we be efficient,
whether I'll be working, collaborative,
you've said their own Canon,
their materials or resources.
That are there for students online
(19:27):
then that gives us that greater face
to FaceTime of that great a smaller
group interactions with learners
to really develop their knowledge,
to really develop their experience.
So might well be a case of in in some
areas that the face to face although
the the live delivery students might
not be developing new knowledge but
consolidating knowledge that they may
have learned independently but really
(19:49):
in developing and enhancing that knowledge.
What's working?
What?
Your thoughts on that?
Yeah, well,
that's very much touching on the kind
of flipped classroom model, isn't it?
Absolutely.
Uh, and I've seen the flipped classroom
work very well in some situations,
and I've seen it fail spectacularly.
(20:09):
And others?
And when it feels, it feels,
because students feel to engage with
the whole process from the start,
they'll come to the the face to face classes,
but they won't,
they won't do the prior learning,
they won't go online,
they won't do the videos
and things like that.
And it's it's So what can we do to design
(20:30):
the experience so that they, you know,
there there's an overwhelming compulsion.
That they want to go in and learn.
The asynchronous stuff online,
whether it's videos,
whether it's online reading,
whether it's animations,
whether it's it's it's quizzes.
And we need to get that right
(20:51):
to overcome that hurdle.
Otherwise, you know,
flip classroom will die in a ditch.
You know, as I say,
it works in some situations,
lots of situations, it doesn't.
And but we need to,
we need to analyze our practice.
Be quite critical with yourself
value evaluative and say,
well this is working here because of this,
(21:14):
this isn't working here.
Because of this we really need to go and.
Look at evidence based teaching practice.
OK uh,
we need to get away from from considering
a common practice as best practice
because that that isn't necessarily so,
(21:35):
you know,
so so we we need to look at
our evidence based practice.
Unfold the facts and would be fair
to say I'm gonna suggest my view
that there's there's now more
chance than ever to college sector.
And the reason I say that is
because one the term flip learn has
been around for years and years
(21:55):
and years. But Nicole Sector it's not
really been utilized on mass because I
think it's been quite an alien term.
I think people wouldn't quite know
where to start whereas I think they
said the last 14 months has kind of
provide a lot more opportunities.
There's been a lot more.
Element really again talk more broadly
around the staff skills around awareness
around um accessibility to platforms.
(22:18):
You know if we look for example
a lot of people have moved to to
Microsoft Teams in the last 12 months
when it didn't exist prior to that.
So do you think that there might
be more of a a broader move to
that do you think moving forward?
Absolutely.
I mean what we've seen is a kind
of paradigm shift away from face to
face teaching you know where almost.
(22:39):
All lecturers can use one form of
or virtual classroom or another.
Whether it's Webex,
whether it's zoom or whether it's teams.
Uh that is very very important.
Uh, the the the kind of skills
gained by lecturing staff.
You know the the learning curves has
been huge and and these aren't skills
(23:02):
that that that they will forget.
What we've also got to consider
is is we are with Microsoft 365.
Teams, SharePoint and OneDrive.
People are going to have access to
their colleagues, their, their files,
their meetings, anywhere in the world.
They've got an Internet.
Hey connection, this is gonna really?
(23:27):
Global eyes business, uh,
globalized working.
You know in the future may people
are going to are going to be able
to be a financial analyst II and
live on the island of Skye.
You know I and so in our teaching you
know whatever subject we're teaching.
(23:48):
As part of the the the Learning,
the students are going to have
to learn how to use.
Virtual conferencing software.
And it will probably be teams,
you know, I think teams,
teams will become the industry standard and
lots of other software will, will, will.
Will feed away it. It will become it.
(24:10):
It will become the worst.
Like we'll use word today.
Yeah,
in five years time people will
use teams like we use word,
you know, and and other.
You know,
you know how other word processing
software has fallen away?
I I think so it's really important
in the students development of their,
of their life and learning skills that
(24:31):
actually they learn how to operate
in this fashion because the world is
changing and and there's other drivers,
you know,
it's not just the pandemic,
it's global warming.
People are going to be traveling
less you know and so we need to
empower our students with the
skills to interact remotely,
not exclusively remotely.
I I'm not saying that.
(24:52):
You know,
I'm, I'm,
I'm,
I'm because there's always going to
be a place to for face to face learning.
It's just for lots of different subjects.
We're going to be entering a blended
hybrid. Highly flexible.
Educational environment.
Now again, some really interesting
potent haven't been in the last 14
(25:13):
years the key conversation but is, yeah,
what sector are we preparing our students,
you know what is the next five years like?
What's the next 10 years look like?
And now more than ever that's
kind of really escalate.
Who knows what the next five
years looks like in terms of.
In in terms of work patterns and in
the workforce and so on and so forth.
But you're right there.
It it's without doubt that digital will
be at the heart of that moving forward.
(25:35):
And so how we underpin that
and how we develop,
that's part of our our standard
practice for students there.
And that comes back to really the
topic of the conversation around
how we provide and how we develop
those creative and engaging learning
experiences because yeah in this,
in the Christmas students,
there are so many things going on there.
Life has so many distractions and it's about.
(25:56):
Having that having that big picture
help them see their next steps or
wherever they want to go and then use
not teaching strategies and approaches
to harness that and kind of quote
you before to make learning happen.
That's what's ultimately what
we're trying to do in that.
Yeah,
I think the future very much is
blended now how blended that is
for every college and every level,
every course,
it will be very different and I I
(26:18):
kind of really view this broad brush
as I'm going to say two to four year
action research project really around what,
what works, what works.
High level what works by curriculum
area and that would be different
in every college as well,
but to try and understand some
commonalities across schools.
But yeah, I think it's a really,
really interesting space and some of
those levers that you have touched
(26:39):
upon or fundamental and kind of making
this happen as a transition from fully
remote to that blended or hybrid approach,
uh,
kind of really kicks on there.
Sure.
Before we finish off there,
I guess is there any other points or
any other note or or tips or advice for
for managers for lecturers to consider
moving forward into this post COVID
(27:00):
era era of creating those creative
and engaging learning environments?
Absolutely.
And it's the personalization of learning.
We we should use all these new digital tools,
all these.
All these ways of reaching out
and connecting with our students,
(27:22):
uh, to make it a more personalized
learning experience.
You know,
if you if I'm a good comparison I use is
look at the entertainment industry look,
look at in the last.
Few years how Netflix has changed the
way people view entertainment content.
(27:42):
It will actually a it's intelligent.
It will make suggestions for things
that you think that you might like.
We need to harness that ability
as educators and and use that
kind of cognitive understanding,
this this idea of learning learner
analytics to understand where our students.
(28:03):
Friends are and our weaknesses are,
and to point them in the right direction
of ways of enhancing their learning.
It's not about teaching anymore,
it's all about enhancing the students
learning and developing their.
(28:23):
Their knowledge and skills.
But the most important skill
we're going to give, I mean,
you're talking about we don't know
how the sector is going to look.
We don't know how industry is going to look,
employment and things like that.
The best thing we can empower our students
to do is we can empower them to learn,
you know, and we can, we can, you know,
once they leave our institutes,
you know, we, we, we can say, well,
(28:45):
this is how you build on your
knowledge and skills because a,
we are entering an era where
knowledge is cheap, you know?
The knowledge is so readily available.
You know you can you can get both
information in 30 seconds on your smartphone.
But that's not the point.
It's being able to analyze
(29:06):
and evaluate the knowledge.
So so that is going to be the the most
important thing for is not is not
having our students repeat things,
learning by repetition or anything like that.
It's about empowering them to learn
and also empowering them to be.
Critical of the knowledge and analyze it.
(29:28):
You know,
in the way that they're presented with it,
that is going to be the the,
the future, you know.
And that is why we need creative learning.
That's why we need to do more
problem based learning,
more project based learning, less Dietetic.
Siege on the stage type stuff,
we need to be developing our
(29:49):
students rational thinking skills.
No,
I think that's a really good way
to end this discussion.
David, you're absolutely right.
The key bit just to finish off with
is for people listening to this.
I think the power of collaboration
as we talked earlier is probably the
most important bit that they can
they can go away and do right now.
And even that isn't,
that's just talking to different
extras and different managers to
understand what's their views on this,
(30:10):
how are they going to bring this to
life because I know we made different.
Perspectives on this is great,
but where do I stop?
And I think that's the important of
the importance of the collaboration
bit there across the sector is
to have that conversation or how
other people are thinking that.
What's their perspective on this,
how are they going to do it,
but also then when bringing this
to life because talking along the
(30:31):
Netflix of education for example.
It's not about lecturers duplicating
things in many different ways and
many different mediums,
but it's about providing those
opportunities for students to learn
in those different ways,
which I think is kind of really key,
as you've kind of alluded to there.
But they are fantastic, you know,
really, really interesting and some
really kind of powerful points there
for for listeners to consider.
So yeah, so thank you for coming
(30:52):
and sharing your views today.
Thanks. Be a really exciting
journey to watch where this goes
in the next two or three years.
Thank you, David.
Hello and welcome to the latest episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast.
The purpose of this podcast is to bring the
force with the key topics of conversation
in relation to learning and teaching,
to discuss, to breakdown aspects
of practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to
integrate these into our daily practice.
Today I'm delighted to be joined by
David Gorley, head of learning and
(00:26):
teaching enhancement at Perth College.
David, how are you? I'm excellent.
How are you? I'm good, thank you.
Not bad for a Monday.
Uh, how's things going?
Your collagen obviously very busy
so far or absolutely very, very,
very busy just trying to get
every student finished and and
successfully achieving their subjects.
(00:47):
This has been a very kind of
interesting and challenging year with
the obviously the COVID pandemic.
No, I think it's the same.
Like the same really across the rest
of the UK and the rest of the world of
wonders with every colleague I talked to,
you know,
has some kind of real challenges in in
the students are always at the front
and center of everything we're trying to do,
which is really interesting because
(01:07):
obviously today's topic is really all about.
So it's about looking at how.
The pandemic how COVID has has,
unless the affected our practice,
but also moving forward.
About how we place creative and engaging
learning at the heart of everything we do,
which I know is the topic of really
kind of interested and keen on.
(01:28):
So I guess just to start with.
What do we mean by that?
What do we mean by creative
and engaging learning, David?
It's all about using imaginative
approaches to making learning more
more interesting and more effective.
If a student doesn't engage
in their learning 100%,
(01:50):
we start off behind the curve.
So it's all about creating a great
learning experience that makes the
students TuneIn and switch on.
To meet them. Get to a bed,
come into college or switch on their their
computer and come in virtually and learn.
(02:10):
That's very interesting.
And how is that gone in the last 14 months
and your experience in your course,
I guess to kind of provide a bit of context,
everyone has spoken to and having been
in college at start of the coded pandemic
was very much a every day was different.
It was pure Survival mode initially.
It's the how do we flip whatever's
happening face to face to online?
And I guess that's then evolved
(02:31):
significantly over time because we've
just got more used to it and our
students have got more used to it and
our staff have got more used to it.
Has that been the same, um,
experience for you and your college?
Absolutely it, you know,
different moments require different methods,
and where we've been successful is where
we've we've looked at reimagining,
learning A and.
(02:55):
Trying to work with the students to
find out what their challenges are
they in order that we can encourage
the learning to happen,
but not just not just learning,
but deeper learning.
No, not really interested.
And I guess the key question that
everybody will be asking is great.
I want to be creative.
I want to be engaging. How do I do it?
(03:15):
Where do I start?
So I guess what's your advice or
what's your views on that?
I think it it starts off with your
own personal mindset, OK?
You know how how you're feeling, you know?
And being reflective in yourself as
an educator, as an online educator,
as a face to face educator,
(03:36):
where are your strengths?
Where are your weaknesses?
You know,
how do you best make learning happen?
No, that's interesting,
I guess.
When talking again,
I when looking really the sector
from a different perspective,
last 12 months it's been I'm gonna
say a lot of noise and a lot of
(03:56):
new information and a lot of a lot
of new ideas which is fantastic.
But at the same time that could
be quite overwhelming you know
for lectures and for managers.
So, so talk about kind of,
but you wouldn't kind of what works for
you and for your students and I guess, yeah.
So is there any advice or any kind
of tips or kind of principles that
you may have come across that kind
of that provides that creative?
(04:19):
Environment or that engaging
learning environment.
Absolutely, it's about.
Even though you're delivering online,
it's about trying to keep the learning
interactive and active for the students
so that so that the students aren't just
sitting back and listening to to you.
Because as we all know that, you know,
(04:41):
if we lecture the students take in about 5%,
if they read something online
they take on about 10%.
But if they're doing more active learning,
then that's the key.
So it's, it's, it's all about mixing it up.
Doing doing a bit of kind of a introductory
kind of lecturing at the start,
(05:02):
but it's all about.
Being inclusive in your teaching,
but being active.
Having having the students perform tasks.
That make them reason,
that make them think, but actually,
most importantly, make them do things.
Yeah,
really interesting and can a lot
(05:23):
of conversation codes recently
been around learning design and
around kind of reflecting on,
on, on,
on the makeup of our curriculum and how we
deliver and how we develop because yeah,
initially,
you know,
especially the start of COVID,
there's a lot of two hour
online sessions where where the
perception was you had to lecture,
you had to.
To to transfer information as opposed to
providing those interactive experiences.
(05:45):
And that was more I think,
because again,
I'm talking kind of broad brush
and large majority here,
people didn't quite know how to do this,
didn't know how to provide
those interactive spaces online
because it was all so new.
There's been a lot of learning
over the last 12 months around.
You know about how we can use
different bits of technology or
different elements within teams
or or different platforms that
(06:06):
people use to provide this.
So I guess what are your thoughts on there?
Are any ideas or any examples that
you've seen actually have worked
really well for some lectures
as to how they have done this?
How will they provide those
interactive experiences for students?
Well, I I think very,
very much we need to strip things
down and reconsider what we're
trying to do in the classroom.
(06:27):
We're not trying to teach.
We're actually trying to
make learning happen.
The teaching is the process,
the learning is the product, as it were.
So we need to strip things down
and. Looking to see right how
for my particular subject,
for this particular topic,
for this particular learning outcome,
(06:48):
can we strip things away?
And what is the best way
to make learning happen?
And that will that will vary
from subject to subject and
and with a lot of subjects,
you're going to be constrained by
the warding bodies a criteria or by
by virtue of the fact that you your
students need to learn a specific.
(07:10):
Competency a certain way.
Putting that aside,
when most subjects are,
there is a lot of freedom and how you can,
how you can make learning happen,
how you can make this the students.
Create their own learning.
With a learner centered approach where
where they actually create meaning and
(07:32):
understanding and that can run at all levels.
It's not just for the higher levels,
it can, it can work at every level.
As I say there,
there is some,
there are some small exceptions,
but moving forward that's what we need to do.
We, we need,
we need to almost strip it all back.
Think,
right,
what are we trying to achieve
(07:53):
today and what's the best way to
do it and what tools do we have?
We've got technology.
But we shouldn't be relying on
technology for technology sake and
and we shouldn't be a be afraid
to A to mix cut an edge electronic
electrical technology with more basic
(08:13):
but effective teaching strategies.
No I think yeah that's that's
fascinating and very much agrees
with kind of my thoughts and views
in terms of first keeping it
really simple everyone I've spoken
to has very different views on.
What digital means?
But to really pair that back and come
back to as you said there, I learn.
(08:33):
I sent an experience of actually
what's right for the students.
How would we make a really
simple and I guess the other?
Uh,
interesting type of conversation
is there's been a lot of narrative
recently in the last two to
three months around how we bring
digital into the classroom.
You know,
I guess my criticism of that is
(08:54):
in that some people are of the the
narrative is rather than some people.
The narrative is that you should
be bringing what you've been doing
online into a traditional classroom,
which for me isn't.
It's not the case whatsoever.
It's how we look at our kind of
learning design or more broadly.
And use the best bit of working remotely,
the best bits of face to face and
(09:14):
how we use that to complement each other,
provide that learning experience.
I know you've had quite the
experience of this in the past,
So what are your thoughts there?
Again,
it's it's looking at stripping
it back and say, right,
what are we trying to make
the students learn today?
What knowledge and skills are they
trying to do within the face to face
(09:34):
classroom on that particular day?
And what is the best tool to use?
How can digitally technology
give us an advantage?
A good example is is is in the
use of 3D technology in the past.
I'm a. I'm a chemist by training,
and I've taught chemistry, uh,
(09:56):
using a 3D graphics where I've taken
people into the that the active site of
a drug targets and showing people how
drugs bind to the active site of the
target using a 3D computer technology.
Something that you can't explain
(10:16):
in the blackboard. You know,
something that that you know is really,
really, really hard.
Explain in words,
but by by using technology to
overcome that visualization problem.
Because you know what I'm trying to show
them isn't microscopic, it's a it's.
(10:37):
Nanoscopic.
So it's using technology when
there's a clear advantage and
it gives you a clear clear.
Learning opportunity.
No, you're absolutely right there and
and again there's a perception it's,
it's making me sound,
(10:58):
it's not meant to be.
There's a perception across the sector
around you've got to use technology
before XY and Z and to be innovative
it's got informed technology.
But no you're absolutely right that's
around how can you use technology to
support and enhance the curriculum
to enhance that learning experience
and as you kind of shared at the
start if technology has a time to
aid and engagement and fantastic
that's the hook straight away.
(11:20):
There is memory retention and
recall and so on and so forth,
then fantastic there as well.
So going back to the kind
of creative and engaging,
you know that's quite a broad
topic and I guess what are your,
your thoughts and values moving
forward into a world whereby we
can choose what our curriculum
(11:40):
looks like in terms of income.
In contrast the last 14 months
where it's being forced,
everyone's had to be remote moving
forward where we can choose we're
kind of keeping really simple,
but other any other kind of key points
to consider to, to provide that.
Creative and that engaging learning
experience where there's a blend of
face to face and online delivery.
(12:02):
The most important thing is to
inspire the learners to, as I say,
to switch them on, to make,
to make them actively engage.
And we need to be inclusive, we need to.
Every class has their extroverts and
every class has their introverts.
A some people just want to come to class.
(12:25):
Set the back of the class,
soak up all the knowledge you know,
go home,
study their notes and things like that.
That's perfect.
But how we can make the experience
better for them as well by by using
these technological levers to make a
more inclusive learning environment
for the people that are shy,
for the people,
(12:45):
for the people that don't necessarily
push themselves forward and things like that.
So it's, it's, it's,
it's using,
it's being creative to reach out to everyone.
No, I didn't.
Wasn't a lot of the topics prior to
today have been around relationships,
you know, and I think again personally.
The the last 14 months has really shone
(13:06):
through from a lectures perspective
about how important relationships
are and how they're curated.
And that links back to what
you're seeing there is really
it's about knowing your learners.
In order to meet the easier learners,
you've got to know your learners and
kind of how they work or or what their
what their needs are as to how you
can include them in their practice.
What are the,
can I touch upon the word levers there?
(13:26):
I guess what are the other levers that
you believe no that will help us be
achieve these effective learning experiences?
The most important lever is the lecture
that themselves, it's their skills,
it's the it's the lecturer
realizing what they're good at.
You know what they're what
(13:47):
their weaknesses are,
what they need to develop a,
and how they can reach out.
You know effectively to the students
to to make learning happen.
A there's also the the use of other resources
using external influencers to inspire people,
(14:09):
from industry entrepreneurs,
a subject specialists.
Now, with with a digital
technologists to technology,
we can reach out across the
world to various people.
We we you know,
you can get people a subject to experts in
San Diego beaming into your your classroom.
(14:30):
Person and things like that,
you know, we we need to think,
you know?
Globally,
as far as how we can influence
our students because now with the
online learning distance is no
object and you can easily get,
you know, guest lecturers in from,
you know, wherever in the world.
And as I say, it's this keyword inspire.
(14:52):
No, I think that's, yeah,
some really interesting points.
And again I've heard different
kinds of different approaches
the culture used to work with.
We had something called the big
picture and also started every session
with the big picture and that just
came back to the inspiring and the hook.
Why am I here?
What am I going to learn today and how
does that help me in my next steps now,
which I think is really important,
(15:13):
what other elements?
So we're talking quite ideal world here.
I mean we're not actually that's a bit harsh,
but these are fundamental things.
Lectures might also say, well,
actually I want to do that.
What else do I need to do I?
How do I start?
Because election can be quite a
lonely role in terms of the working
by themselves typically is when
there was a year with students.
So kind of where do we start
and how else do we do as David?
(15:34):
Well,
you've got in one it's it's the power
of collaboration and synergy working
together with others in their field,
other lecturers,
a people in industry and things like that.
Because one of the main challenges
we we have in college is just
now is that we always try and
reinvent the wheel as far as teaching
(15:55):
material you know a ideas but by working
in collaboration and as I say going back
to the the idea that every lecturer.
Strengths and weaknesses by working
in in in collaborative partnerships
and teams you know we can maximize
the synergy A and a support a,
(16:16):
take the load off work better you know
by working collaboratively not just
within our own colleges but across the
network and even longitudinally and
laterally globally in order to to share
best practice harness best practice.
And give the students the best
(16:37):
possible experience we can get.
So it's all about,
I mean collaboration is the key
and working together, you know,
that's another very,
very important lever and you know.
Over the years, you know,
I've you collaboration is hard.
And so these projects need to be well,
well planned and but they must be based
(17:00):
on trust and respect so that when you
start out that you know what's in it for you,
you know what's in it for your collaborators.
But most importantly,
you know that the end goals are
an inspiring student experience.
You just throw my end goal.
You're absolutely right.
That's what's got to come back
to at the end and I think there's
a bit of work to be done.
I think there's a real appetite.
(17:20):
I'm not sure what this kind
of mirrors your experience,
but I think a lot of people have
been a lot more willing to either
support others or to find out
more because they've had to,
because this has been quite an
alien world for a lot of lectures.
Is that the same experience as well?
Absolutely, absolutely.
It the sense of community and collaboration
and support has been overwhelming,
(17:42):
but also the sense of,
you know, a innovation and a,
you know, being taking risks.
A I think people,
because they felt, you know,
they were really under the cosh,
they felt that some people thought they
could take risks, they could be bold.
They they you know,
they they thought they they could take risks.
(18:03):
They weren't afraid to fail,
you know, because of the circumstances
and we we had to do something.
So people were doing bold things.
Yeah.
I think the key bit moving forward
is to curate those spaces,
as you've said there with
lecturers and with others.
Is not across a couple
(18:24):
of levels of monography.
Firstly,
it's to show or provide
that space for lectures,
to understand how others have done it,
because we're just, we're not before.
It's quite lonely being a lecturer.
You only know what you know,
unless you speak to other lecturers
to understand how they have done it.
And the next bit then is is really
changing mindset and and and this is
I'm a big believer in this in terms of.
(18:44):
For me,
technology can be used to make
us a lot more efficient.
What I mean by that is looking
back like curriculum
and think well, well what do
I need to teach face to face,
what can be taught online.
And that doesn't mean that something
that is lesser can be taught online,
but how we really harness those face
to face interactions and face to face
experiences to make that learning happen,
(19:06):
to consolidate the knowledge
that's being taught online,
but to really develop those knowledge,
those skills and those behaviors
in that face to face environment,
you know, so I think if we're
if as a sector where we think.
Differently about this,
we think actually how can we be efficient,
whether I'll be working, collaborative,
you've said their own Canon,
their materials or resources.
That are there for students online
(19:27):
then that gives us that greater face
to FaceTime of that great a smaller
group interactions with learners
to really develop their knowledge,
to really develop their experience.
So might well be a case of in in some
areas that the face to face although
the the live delivery students might
not be developing new knowledge but
consolidating knowledge that they may
have learned independently but really
(19:49):
in developing and enhancing that knowledge.
What's working?
What?
Your thoughts on that?
Yeah, well,
that's very much touching on the kind
of flipped classroom model, isn't it?
Absolutely.
Uh, and I've seen the flipped classroom
work very well in some situations,
and I've seen it fail spectacularly.
(20:09):
And others?
And when it feels, it feels,
because students feel to engage with
the whole process from the start,
they'll come to the the face to face classes,
but they won't,
they won't do the prior learning,
they won't go online,
they won't do the videos
and things like that.
And it's it's So what can we do to design
(20:30):
the experience so that they, you know,
there there's an overwhelming compulsion.
That they want to go in and learn.
The asynchronous stuff online,
whether it's videos,
whether it's online reading,
whether it's animations,
whether it's it's it's quizzes.
And we need to get that right
(20:51):
to overcome that hurdle.
Otherwise, you know,
flip classroom will die in a ditch.
You know, as I say,
it works in some situations,
lots of situations, it doesn't.
And but we need to,
we need to analyze our practice.
Be quite critical with yourself
value evaluative and say,
well this is working here because of this,
(21:14):
this isn't working here.
Because of this we really need to go and.
Look at evidence based teaching practice.
OK uh,
we need to get away from from considering
a common practice as best practice
because that that isn't necessarily so,
(21:35):
you know,
so so we we need to look at
our evidence based practice.
Unfold the facts and would be fair
to say I'm gonna suggest my view
that there's there's now more
chance than ever to college sector.
And the reason I say that is
because one the term flip learn has
been around for years and years
(21:55):
and years. But Nicole Sector it's not
really been utilized on mass because I
think it's been quite an alien term.
I think people wouldn't quite know
where to start whereas I think they
said the last 14 months has kind of
provide a lot more opportunities.
There's been a lot more.
Element really again talk more broadly
around the staff skills around awareness
around um accessibility to platforms.
(22:18):
You know if we look for example
a lot of people have moved to to
Microsoft Teams in the last 12 months
when it didn't exist prior to that.
So do you think that there might
be more of a a broader move to
that do you think moving forward?
Absolutely.
I mean what we've seen is a kind
of paradigm shift away from face to
face teaching you know where almost.
(22:39):
All lecturers can use one form of
or virtual classroom or another.
Whether it's Webex,
whether it's zoom or whether it's teams.
Uh that is very very important.
Uh, the the the kind of skills
gained by lecturing staff.
You know the the learning curves has
been huge and and these aren't skills
(23:02):
that that that they will forget.
What we've also got to consider
is is we are with Microsoft 365.
Teams, SharePoint and OneDrive.
People are going to have access to
their colleagues, their, their files,
their meetings, anywhere in the world.
They've got an Internet.
Hey connection, this is gonna really?
(23:27):
Global eyes business, uh,
globalized working.
You know in the future may people
are going to are going to be able
to be a financial analyst II and
live on the island of Skye.
You know I and so in our teaching you
know whatever subject we're teaching.
(23:48):
As part of the the the Learning,
the students are going to have
to learn how to use.
Virtual conferencing software.
And it will probably be teams,
you know, I think teams,
teams will become the industry standard and
lots of other software will, will, will.
Will feed away it. It will become it.
(24:10):
It will become the worst.
Like we'll use word today.
Yeah,
in five years time people will
use teams like we use word,
you know, and and other.
You know,
you know how other word processing
software has fallen away?
I I think so it's really important
in the students development of their,
of their life and learning skills that
(24:31):
actually they learn how to operate
in this fashion because the world is
changing and and there's other drivers,
you know,
it's not just the pandemic,
it's global warming.
People are going to be traveling
less you know and so we need to
empower our students with the
skills to interact remotely,
not exclusively remotely.
I I'm not saying that.
(24:52):
You know,
I'm, I'm,
I'm,
I'm because there's always going to
be a place to for face to face learning.
It's just for lots of different subjects.
We're going to be entering a blended
hybrid. Highly flexible.
Educational environment.
Now again, some really interesting
potent haven't been in the last 14
(25:13):
years the key conversation but is, yeah,
what sector are we preparing our students,
you know what is the next five years like?
What's the next 10 years look like?
And now more than ever that's
kind of really escalate.
Who knows what the next five
years looks like in terms of.
In in terms of work patterns and in
the workforce and so on and so forth.
But you're right there.
It it's without doubt that digital will
be at the heart of that moving forward.
(25:35):
And so how we underpin that
and how we develop,
that's part of our our standard
practice for students there.
And that comes back to really the
topic of the conversation around
how we provide and how we develop
those creative and engaging learning
experiences because yeah in this,
in the Christmas students,
there are so many things going on there.
Life has so many distractions and it's about.
(25:56):
Having that having that big picture
help them see their next steps or
wherever they want to go and then use
not teaching strategies and approaches
to harness that and kind of quote
you before to make learning happen.
That's what's ultimately what
we're trying to do in that.
Yeah,
I think the future very much is
blended now how blended that is
for every college and every level,
every course,
it will be very different and I I
(26:18):
kind of really view this broad brush
as I'm going to say two to four year
action research project really around what,
what works, what works.
High level what works by curriculum
area and that would be different
in every college as well,
but to try and understand some
commonalities across schools.
But yeah, I think it's a really,
really interesting space and some of
those levers that you have touched
(26:39):
upon or fundamental and kind of making
this happen as a transition from fully
remote to that blended or hybrid approach,
uh,
kind of really kicks on there.
Sure.
Before we finish off there,
I guess is there any other points or
any other note or or tips or advice for
for managers for lecturers to consider
moving forward into this post COVID
(27:00):
era era of creating those creative
and engaging learning environments?
Absolutely.
And it's the personalization of learning.
We we should use all these new digital tools,
all these.
All these ways of reaching out
and connecting with our students,
(27:22):
uh, to make it a more personalized
learning experience.
You know,
if you if I'm a good comparison I use is
look at the entertainment industry look,
look at in the last.
Few years how Netflix has changed the
way people view entertainment content.
(27:42):
It will actually a it's intelligent.
It will make suggestions for things
that you think that you might like.
We need to harness that ability
as educators and and use that
kind of cognitive understanding,
this this idea of learning learner
analytics to understand where our students.
(28:03):
Friends are and our weaknesses are,
and to point them in the right direction
of ways of enhancing their learning.
It's not about teaching anymore,
it's all about enhancing the students
learning and developing their.
(28:23):
Their knowledge and skills.
But the most important skill
we're going to give, I mean,
you're talking about we don't know
how the sector is going to look.
We don't know how industry is going to look,
employment and things like that.
The best thing we can empower our students
to do is we can empower them to learn,
you know, and we can, we can, you know,
once they leave our institutes,
you know, we, we, we can say, well,
(28:45):
this is how you build on your
knowledge and skills because a,
we are entering an era where
knowledge is cheap, you know?
The knowledge is so readily available.
You know you can you can get both
information in 30 seconds on your smartphone.
But that's not the point.
It's being able to analyze
(29:06):
and evaluate the knowledge.
So so that is going to be the the most
important thing for is not is not
having our students repeat things,
learning by repetition or anything like that.
It's about empowering them to learn
and also empowering them to be.
Critical of the knowledge and analyze it.
(29:28):
You know,
in the way that they're presented with it,
that is going to be the the,
the future, you know.
And that is why we need creative learning.
That's why we need to do more
problem based learning,
more project based learning, less Dietetic.
Siege on the stage type stuff,
we need to be developing our
(29:49):
students rational thinking skills.
No,
I think that's a really good way
to end this discussion.
David, you're absolutely right.
The key bit just to finish off with
is for people listening to this.
I think the power of collaboration
as we talked earlier is probably the
most important bit that they can
they can go away and do right now.
And even that isn't,
that's just talking to different
extras and different managers to
understand what's their views on this,
(30:10):
how are they going to bring this to
life because I know we made different.
Perspectives on this is great,
but where do I stop?
And I think that's the important of
the importance of the collaboration
bit there across the sector is
to have that conversation or how
other people are thinking that.
What's their perspective on this,
how are they going to do it,
but also then when bringing this
to life because talking along the
(30:31):
Netflix of education for example.
It's not about lecturers duplicating
things in many different ways and
many different mediums,
but it's about providing those
opportunities for students to learn
in those different ways,
which I think is kind of really key,
as you've kind of alluded to there.
But they are fantastic, you know,
really, really interesting and some
really kind of powerful points there
for for listeners to consider.
So yeah, so thank you for coming
(30:52):
and sharing your views today.
Thanks. Be a really exciting
journey to watch where this goes
in the next two or three years.
Thank you, David.
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