July 7, 2021 • 32 mins
A slight change to the format, we're going to run 4 episodes entitled, 'Leadership Matters', exploring leadership from different perspectives. The first in the series introduces Grant Ritchie – former Principal at Dundee and Angus College and Fellow with CDN. During this podcast Grant discusses his leadership journey, what helped and hindered him on that journey, and what advice he would give to emerging leaders.
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(00:07):
Well, and. Hello and welcome to the first
episode of Leadership Matters Podcast.
The purpose of this mini series of
podcasts is to explore leadership
from different perspectives.
So what can we learn from the past?
What's required for the future,
and where can we draw inspiration from?
(00:28):
And today I am delighted to
be joined by Grant Ritchie.
Grant is a fellow and associate
director of CDN and a former principal
at Dundee and Angus College.
He sits on a range of boards and committees,
and he was awarded the SQA
Fellowship in 2017.
Grant is really passionate about the
ways that colleges can transform the
(00:49):
lives of people in the community,
and he wants to see colleges driving
economic recovery and working with
businesses to make sure that the right
skills are in the right place, right.
And of course, that takes leadership.
Now, over the next 30 minutes,
Grant and I will be chatting
about his leadership journey,
what helped and hindered that journey,
(01:12):
and what advice he'd give to
emerging leaders. So welcome, grant.
Thank you very much indeed, Valerie. Thanks.
I'm delighted to be asked to do this.
And it's just, it's just great to have you,
but you've spent many years working
in education and particularly in
the college sector, both sector,
both as a lecturer and laterally
as a college principal.
(01:33):
Tell us a bit about your leadership journey.
I think my leadership journey started
as soon as I kind of walked through
the doors of the colleges lecture.
I came in a very small department
and it was called life and social
skills at that point.
And we were teaching,
we're teaching life and social skills,
communication and all of that,
to largely YTS kits.
This was the mid 80s.
(01:53):
There was a lot of YTS programs coming
into colleges and it was a tiny department.
It was only me and one other one other
person but but with a department leader
and the department leader was a phenomenon.
You know,
and it was actually Linda McKay who ended up
becoming principal at Forth Valley College,
Chair of the The Trossachs
(02:14):
National Park and and you know,
and a whole lot of other things
and and she was tremendous.
And I was just struck from the
minute I walked in by just the
way Linda got things done.
You know,
and to be operating in a tiny department
in a college which was kind of hostile
largely to things like YTS at that point.
Colleges still some sort of
(02:35):
very academic organizations,
you know, and teaching.
Was exam set syllabus and all
this kind of stuff.
So it would be doing the types
of work that we were doing,
which was very kind of community based,
very experiential and all that.
You know, it wasn't really the done thing.
But the way that Linda got things
done and the way that she just
exercised leadership and you
know was not scared to
(02:56):
go national with ideas and bring people into
college with a kind of a national level.
It was to me it was just stunning
and it opened up watching her then
progress and the progression of our.
Department watching all that just
kind of opened up for me that
you can do anything in college.
You know there's there's there's no
limit to what you can achieve if you
(03:18):
really set your mind to it and if you
get the right conditions and if you
get the right team and if you get the
right ideas then there's absolutely
no limit to what you can achieve.
So I think my leadership journey
started absolutely at that point.
You know within the first couple of
weeks when watching Linda operate just
just kind of opened my eyes to what
college could do and I think I was lucky.
(03:38):
In that, you know I mean I I ended
up with the same culture all of
my kind of career which is highly
unusual but it's the way it works.
But there was a series of really
good leaders that I came across.
You know,
one was the deputy principal at the
same time I was there in in Dundee,
David White,
who was terrific and Ian Evans who
came in as a principal when the
(03:58):
principal that had originally there
left was a terrific principle and had
great ideas and and knew how to lead.
You know so Christina Potter
and followed him.
So I've seen a series of really,
really.
Worked very closely with a series
of really good leaders you know
and it made me actually really
contemplate and think very hard
about leadership you know and and
and begin to exercise it myself.
(04:19):
You know from a very very kind of
early age you know but just try to
seize the initiative on somethings
and just try and be bold you know be
bold and and and try and make things
go in a certain direction and and
see if you can do it you know and
you pick up skills along the way and
you I I ended up formally studying.
Educational leadership.
(04:40):
Many years later,
I did a kind of masters in educational
leadership and that was quite interesting.
You know, came of course a lot
of interesting stuff there.
So, you know, it's,
I'm not saying I set out to be
a college leader and, you know,
it was a path I had absolutely,
you know, decided I was definitely
going to do it just kind of opened up.
But I was found myself tremendously
(05:01):
influenced by really good people around me,
you know, and by watching I'm,
I'm really,
I'm really inspired by that.
It's genuinely really inspired by that.
That you could look around and that you
could see people who were good leaders,
and then that inspired you to be a leader.
But so you named a few.
But tell me,
what was it about them that made
them good? Well, I think you know,
this is a really interesting principal.
(05:22):
You died just a couple of years
ago and he was a complete kind of
workaholic you know and he did
loads of work for Escalade it loads
of work called the Scotland or
whatever it was called at that point.
You know, he was he was constantly
working and constantly on things
and he was a pretty difficult guy
to kind of get along with.
He didn't suffer fools at all you
(05:43):
know and he if he didn't like it
you knew you know and he I could,
I've seen him be.
Pretty brutal to people you know in
meetings you know and and because
he the way he operated you know he
operated he this level all the time
you know and if you fell below that you
know he soon kind of sussed you out.
So there was a kind of a a sense
(06:04):
with him that I he was a bit
scary you know as a leader.
But also the ideas that you had and the
way he presented them and his desire
always to be ahead of the game and
thinking of the next thing and and you know.
Developing the next idea and
developing the next idea and taking
on government over that,
(06:24):
taking on the funding Council over that,
making sure that you know the
the voice of the collector was
heard and all that kind of stuff.
That was really impressive you know and
I I thought he was really impressive.
He had this reputation as being quite fierce.
But when he went in to talk to staff
and big groups and presented you know
there was something about the the
strength of his ideas really that I
(06:45):
thought was really good and really important.
I remember seeing them at some
point when he was doing.
A series of briefings, you know and he was,
he was doing a lot of work with the,
the,
the crowds that were coming in and
he was getting a lot of Q&A and he
was getting a lot of people in groups
and talking and thinking and actually
said to him make sure you get plenty
of yourself in in these presentations
(07:06):
because him doing his thing was just
so interesting and and so powerful you know.
And he really looked and talked
as if he was you know,
straight ahead everybody else,
you know.
In terms of his knowledge and in
terms of where the sector was going
and his knowledge of where the sector
was going and all that kind of stuff,
and that I think that was really
(07:27):
influential to me in terms of a,
in terms of the range of things that
he was involved in, made me think, right.
I need to get involved in some
of these things.
You know,
I need to get involved in
some of these national things.
I need to work out,
you know, where to put my energies
and I'm going to develop the skills
to become a leader, you know,
because you ain't going to do it
in your own college, full stop.
You need to go out and you need to
(07:48):
connect to different organizations.
And what first career for years
various kind of do various jobs various
communities for them changing things
and leading qualification development.
I set up a couple of international
projects that that got industry
and and colleges together.
You know and went out and convinced
everybody to be a part of it.
Convinced colleges to be a part of it,
convinced the funding Council
to support it and all that.
(08:09):
And all these things where I I
don't think I'd have got anywhere
near doing these things I hadn't
seen you know Linda McKay doing
similar stuff that Ian Evans the
way that he just managed to make.
Things happen, you know,
I remember he was giving me a
lift at one point to Sterling.
You know,
we'll go to some event and sterling
and I was going to meet in the next day
and with kind of head industry bodies.
(08:31):
And I said to him,
I've got a meeting all these industry
bodies and it's about this college project.
I'm trying to get all the
colleges together to support it.
And I haven't really got all
the colleges together.
There's only two or three
that she interested in this,
but I'm going to just tell
them you've got them Grant.
You know,
just you tell them you have
got the colleges behind you,
you know because if you win.
These guys over all the
(08:51):
colleges will flood in.
You know, it was just that be bold,
you know, be bold,
get out there, get out there,
talk up the sector and you know,
you, you, you'll get there.
You'll get people supporting you,
you'll get that support to come.
So there was a kind of confidence in his
approach, which I, you know, learned.
You know, it wasn't natural to me,
but I kind of learned it from,
(09:12):
from him, I think, you know.
So there's a few things coming out there.
There's one, one is about authenticity
as a leader and it sounds as if Ian.
Was authentic and also future thinking.
Yeah.
And, and, you know,
sounds a bit a bit fearless,
you know, prepared to take risk,
I should say, rather than fearless.
Yeah. Well, that's absolutely right.
(09:34):
Absolutely.
But there's some,
there's something else because I read
a report recently or it was a piece
of research and it was talking about leaders,
about CEOs.
And there was research done around what are
the treats that are common among CEO's.
And actually there was one that was
outstanding and it was political
(09:54):
acumen and it was knowing that.
And and for me what you've explained
there about when someone said,
you know,
just tell them they've got to get,
get the energy on board,
get these people behind.
There's a bit of political acumen that
comes into play there, isn't there?
There's undoubtedly political acumen.
You need to, you need to think through.
You know what? Uh, whoever it is
that you're trying to go on board.
(10:15):
You know, I had a conversation this
morning with a very influential
kind of civil servant around a
project that I'm involved in.
And, you know, even now I'm thinking, right.
You know, from her point of view,
what is going to be the successful here?
What is really going to push her buttons in
terms of getting involved with this project?
You know, so you have to have
(10:35):
your political antennae,
you know, alert,
and you have to really think things through,
you know, if I've also been in,
in, pretty disastrous.
Conversations when I've gone into
too cocky are assuming that people
would be interested and you find that
they're not really interested, too.
So yeah,
you need to be aware of what the
interests of the people are that you
are trying to get on board, you know?
(10:57):
And you need to be able to,
you know, sell your idea,
sell your college and sell
whatever thing you're trying to,
you know, make happen in a way
that's really going to appeal.
And that takes a lot of thinking.
Sometimes, you know,
just because your college is good
at something doesn't matter.
You know,
if if you're going to sell something to
somebody and you want their influence,
that you want investment,
(11:18):
you've gotta tell them what
you're called is brilliant.
But you've also got to tell them
why that's absolutely critical for
them and why it links into this
latest piece of government thinking,
why it links into this latest
piece of international thinking.
You know,
you need to actually push all of those
buttons to kind of to get through,
you know, and to get noticed.
And I suppose that applies at
(11:38):
a number of levels,
even if you're a first line manager,
if you're a lecturer, if you're a support.
Bruce staff and you have an idea and
you're passionate about something.
You need to sell it by letting
other people know how it,
how it benefits them as well as you.
And absolutely.
And and you need to sell it within the
context of the world that you're living in.
You know.
And I've seen loads of brilliant
ideas and people have come and pitched
(12:00):
great ideas to me in the college about right.
We should be doing this.
You know, listen really good idea.
But actually the conditions probably
aren't there for that to happen
that to happen and that to happen,
you know, so you have to sort of save people.
I don't.
It's a great idea but I don't
think it's gonna work.
What you're going to do first is this,
and then this and then this and then
maybe your idea will come along.
(12:20):
You know, so it's being realistic
about what will actually work and
and and trying to get people to kind
of think through all the angles.
You know, there are a lot of people
in the colleges that get carried
away with their own enthusiasm about
how fantastic things are and they
just assume that will translate to
others and we'll invest others.
Now you've got to think about how
it relates beyond your borders.
(12:41):
You know, for it really to kind
of impressive. Of people,
for it really to be meaningful for folk,
you know well, I think that's,
I think that's a real nugget because I
know in the past I've been passionate
about things and really driven.
And and some of them took off and some
of them didn't and I was thinking no.
But as you say it's just that bigger
picture and seeing how it fits in and
being able to communicate as and and
(13:03):
and and the way that you do that.
The way that you can get good at that
is just by being interested you know
and then reading and thinking and
fall and it's a lot of it's boring
work you know but you know if if a
big report comes out front of Council
of the government is something really
you don't have to read the whole lot.
It's gonna you know pick up the ideas
(13:24):
which way is the world moving with us.
You know and and begin to adopt those ideas,
adopt the language,
adopt the ways of operating,
you know and and you can you can soon
build the skills that allow you to
really connect in other people and
connect in other organizations and
and take take ideas beyond your own.
You know beyond your own world.
So I've heard you talk about other
(13:45):
leaders who were inspirational and
and there you're talking about make
sure you read.
Make sure you learn, make sure you're.
You get to know what that bigger,
bigger picture is in terms of your
own leadership journey.
What else helped that?
I think,
I think the fact that you know I
was working in in a good college
with good people. You know it helps.
(14:07):
You know I think the fact that a
couple people I think recognized
that I had kind of talent or some you
know I could actually help develop
things and make things work and all
that was good and and the college
itself was a good one I think so there's,
there's there's a lot of areas where
you can find help if you can target
the right people and just get to know
them and and and understand them you
(14:28):
know you can find that you can learn.
So much from other people and
just from how they work, you know,
but I think one of, the, one of the.
Best lessons of all is do not get sucked in.
To those who can't see the way forward,
you know, colleges,
all organisations are full of people
who can really push it on and really
(14:50):
make it work and really make it happen.
But also the full of a lot of people
who are maybe great at their job,
you know, great teachers,
great administrators, whatever,
but they become quite kind of jaded
and they become quite cynical and
they can't see the way forward.
And I've seen a lot of good people
in my time getting sucked into that,
you know, and sucked into that.
(15:11):
Never work kind of syndrome,
you know, why bother trying that?
I tried to do that 10 years ago and
it didn't work. You know, there's.
There's a mindset that you have
to avoid at all costs.
You know, colleges are big, complicated,
people are complicated places.
You know,
the history of of trying to make things
happen in the college sector is complicated.
(15:31):
You know, we, you know,
we tend to find ourselves on
the receiving end of cuts of,
of regionalization and all that.
It's been better in the last
kind of a couple of years.
But, you know,
there was a lot of years there where
it looked like the world was against
the college sector and you were
never going to make things happen,
you know, and at times.
Projects fell apart and at times
other partners let you down.
(15:52):
At times you found you'd read it wrong,
you know,
and but the the temptation to
get disappointed and to say,
well, that's that you know,
this is never going to work.
This is just rubbish.
Avoid it at all costs.
If you're the leader,
you have to continue to see that way forward,
no matter how disappointing
things have happened.
No matter if some decision comes in that
you've built up a project for three years,
(16:13):
you've got everybody in the right place,
and then a decision comes down the
line that knocks it sideways, you know?
Don't be disappointed.
You know that happens.
You know, it happens in life.
It happens in big organizations,
it happens in the political world, you know?
So do not let yourself be disappointed.
Always look for the next thing.
Always look for the next idea of
(16:33):
two or three in your back pocket.
So there's always something else
that can come along and get you
excited and get you moving, you know?
So have I got you right in terms
of saying that one of the things
that you need to do as a leader
is to build resilience so that
you can actually just take?
That.
But not take that as a hit and get,
you know,
and just get down about something if
it's not working or it's not taken
(16:55):
off or something that you don't,
but you build the resilience to kind of say,
right, let's look for the next,
let's look to the future rather than.
The big picture,
don't lose sight of the big picture.
You know, you'll get,
you will get bumps along the way.
You'll get things that don't work.
But you know,
what is your absolute big picture?
You know? And my big picture was always,
you know, I want to college to be,
(17:16):
you know, one of the leading
colleges in terms of performance.
I want us to be known as innovators.
I want, I want to encourage all the people
that I've got ideas to use those ideas.
You know, I want to gather people
around me and get the people going who
really want to get a buzz out working
in a college and making it happen,
you know?
And so that was always.
The game and and it was let's grow,
(17:36):
let's grow, let's grow.
Let's never retreat you know and let's
let's let's look for the next thing.
All the time.
Sometimes there's people in my own
college who were like ohh you know
not another initiative you know
and there's it takes all sorts and
in a successful management team
and a successful executive team,
you know and there are people who
just want to get stuff done and
are brilliant process and brilliant
(17:57):
actually making things happen.
And you know I early on you know
I remember somebody saying to me,
yeah you're all about just building
a project.
When you leave it and you go into
something else and it's like that.
Yeah, but the point is, you know,
building something up and getting
people running it and then you
move on to something else,
it's fine because it wouldn't happen
if you hadn't done it, you know.
Yeah.
And so you need to do it and you need
(18:18):
to be constantly looking for what's
the next thing and what's the next thing,
what's the next thing and have a range.
The next things you know that
you're pushing on, you know it's.
And that way you don't get jaded, you know,
that way if out of five big ideas,
two get knocked back, three you get back,
you're still got two, you know,
you still got two shown with, you know and.
Never get disappointed.
(18:38):
You know you'll get disappointed with people.
You'll get disappointed with organizations
because you know you get let down.
But just do not let that become
the defining characteristic.
You crack on, you know and and so far,
so far we've spoken about sort
of leading projects,
leading an organization that
that type of leading,
but when it comes to leading people.
(19:01):
Yep. Tell us what about you?
I think it's about it's
about understanding them.
It's about understanding what
drives them and it's about trying
to make sure that you're getting
the right person in the right slot,
you know and and that comes through
talking and talking, talking,
talking,
talking and beginning to understand
who the doers are,
beginning to understand who the
(19:22):
ones that will actually deliver and
spotting them early in their careers.
I think is is so important.
You know, if you can see the doers and
the ones who are the problem solvers.
And the ones who will actually get on
and do it, find a way to promote them.
You know, find a way to get them
into influential positions as
quickly as you possibly can.
You know, that sounds quite tough and
(19:43):
but sometimes means inventing things
doesn't always mean getting rid of people,
not at all. You know,
people come and people go, you know.
But if you get, if you begin to spot
and then there was a period just.
And before I retired,
it was six or eight months or
so before I left to college.
Or maybe it was just maybe a
bit longer than that,
maybe a year before that, of course.
But I remember being in a room with
(20:05):
a group of kind of a lot of people
who were just into senior management,
you know, and just listening to them
talking and they were talking about, right.
We tried that last year.
That didn't work.
We're going to do this.
We're going to do that.
Now, if I do that,
you'll have to do that.
You'll have to connect to that and
the energy and the sense of natural
improvers being in management positions.
Just gonna struck me, you know,
(20:27):
and they were all in the late 30s, you know,
and I actually thought you've cracked it,
you know,
job done because that's the people,
they are the people who are going to
take on the College in the next 10-15,
twenty years and make sure it
stays where it is, you know,
so developing people is absolutely critical.
And if you're a principal,
(20:47):
the way you develop them is
by giving them time.
You know,
the most important thing you can give them
is time that is like talking to them,
you know, it doesn't.
And it doesn't have to be,
you know, earnest life lessons,
but just talking to them,
talking about what they're doing,
talking about the call,
showing them the attention,
showing them that you really care,
showing them you think they're good,
you know, and telling them they,
they think the work they're
(21:08):
doing is really good.
It's the best possible way.
Encourage people on, you know,
there's anything to do, something great.
Tell them, you know,
go and seek them out, you know,
write them a note with,
you know,
and what about so that that's
kind of leading so that you're
developing future leaders.
What about the people who
maybe don't want to be leaders?
Yeah, I mean,
I think those who don't want to be leaders,
(21:29):
you need to develop the narrative.
That they. At least accept.
You know,
they may not buy into it and say
I want to be a leader in this
organization and I'm going to,
I'm going to sing the college song
and I'm going to become, you know,
100% committed to it, you know.
But if you can,
even with those that are really
tough to reach, you know,
(21:50):
and those that are determinedly
anti management, you know,
and you still have to talk to them
and you still have to say to them,
This is why we're doing what we're doing,
you know, and the way I always
characterize most things work,
that thing I said earlier on about
trying to always make the college.
To go try and make it bigger.
Where's the next idea that'll make it bigger?
Where can we get additional
(22:11):
credits from the funding Council?
Where can we get resource
to grow and grow and grow.
You know if I found that that you
know there were a couple of black
holes and the callers like serious
black holes and I would take any
opportunity to get down and and
talk to them and and and get them
in the room and I remember we're
launched a couple of kind of big.
Project things that we launched
at a member saying, well,
(22:32):
let's launch it with this group 1st and
that group first so they could go in
and actively confront the kind of the.
The difficulties that people
would put in your path, you know,
and I would not,
it was the way that I tried to do it with,
with, you know, difficult staff was just.
The purpose of this is to make
(22:52):
the college grow.
The purpose of this is to keep you in a job.
The purpose of this is to keep your
kids in a job and to be taking old
people and be making sure that
far more people than can benefit
from the college now can benefit
from the College in the future.
That's why we're doing this,
you know, so the you need to nail
the overall purpose of this is,
(23:13):
you know,
and if you can sell it as being something
positive for them and for everybody else,
then you'll you'll you'll have a chance,
I mean. I mean,
it's not all selling positive and big ideas,
you know?
I've had to run and.
Savings plans,
you know where in fact for about
three years that was all it did.
You know you say right we have to
start this year saving £1,000,000,
it's terrible but we've just got
(23:34):
to do it you know and then next
year sorry folks again we're having
to save £1,000,000 you know,
and you just have to get out
there and be honest open,
you know and and but you know
keep a kind of an idea alive of
where you want the college to go.
You know we're needing to do this
because we need to put push it forward
and we need to maintain our reputation,
we need to push on in this area.
(23:55):
So it's dealing with those who are difficult,
dealing with those that have got no
stake in it is it's just psychology,
you know,
you need to think through how am I
going to get these people
inside and you won't.
When you know you won't get them on site,
if you can get them not
being actively oppositional,
then that's maybe the best you can get,
(24:17):
you know. And that's OK because
there's enough people being positive
normally in the course where you going.
And So what I hear you saying
really strongly there is that,
you know, it's not about individuals,
it's not about you or it's
not about any individual,
it's about that shared common purpose.
You know probably there for and.
(24:38):
Trying to make sure that you achieve
that rather than meet everybody's
individual needs and listen to.
Absolutely. Try to address the stuff that.
Individuals aren't happy with.
Yeah, exactly.
And the thing I could do is you
can't do that often enough.
And I said that to people.
We spent all loads of time,
you know,
actually talking to groups of staff
like inordinate amounts of time.
You know,
(24:58):
we would do briefings kind of 3/4 times
a year and because we're multicampus
would do it three times in each campus.
So I was doing,
you know,
kind of similar kind of presentation
maybe 11-12 times over the course
of the fortnight or something like,
you know, just to go in.
But I would nearly always talk
about the successes of the college,
what we've developed and.
Basically say that you have done this.
You know it's not me.
(25:19):
You know you've done this.
You know the fact that we are known
as innovators and learning teaching
us absolutely nothing to do with me.
You know that's you you know you
are the ones that are getting the
great results with the students.
You're the ones are face to
face with the students.
I've got all kinds of difficulties
and you're solving the problems
and you're getting them through.
You know you are gold dust.
You know you are magic.
You know the magic in this college
(25:40):
happens between the teachers
and the and the the students,
you know because if they're successful
you're doing your job properly
and and that that's where the.
The strength of the courts
come from go out and you can't
tell people that often enough.
You know,
and you you the time you devote to doing
that is the best time you'll spend,
you know,
in terms of trying to lead a college
and help people actually go with you.
(26:00):
You know, don't spend all your
time talking to politicians.
You know,
don't spend all your time talking
to the funding Council government.
Speak to your own staff as
often as you possibly can.
And you know with 1000 staff across,
you know, five different campuses,
it's dead hard,
but just you've just got
even more time into doing it.
Yeah.
And just to finish up then,
so there's some lovely bits of,
(26:21):
there's some lovely Nuggets there for me,
the thing about being authentic
and being honest and being
politically astute and.
Really to, you know,
being able to identify the people
who have ideas and who have the
energy and you know, nurturing them,
but also giving other people a voice
and and and letting them know that
(26:42):
what the purpose is and what the,
you know, the collective intention is.
So just to finish up, if you were to,
if you were to give some real advice or
guidance to young leaders that are coming
up now and they're going to be facing these.
You know the challenges that we've got that
we've never seen anything like it before.
(27:03):
What would be the just the key Nuggets
of advice that you want to get off?
That's tough.
It's tough to kind of summarize it.
You know they need to watch and learn.
You know, they need to watch
people who are really good,
watch people are really good and learn,
you know and be prepared to change,
don't get fixed ideas about what
leadership in the college sector is
(27:24):
going to be like or it's like this now.
Therefore it's going to be like this
in 10 years time because it it.
You know,
things are changing to such an extent.
You know the the, the amount of time
people now need to talk in partnership.
I noticed, I noticed that and.
Dumfries and Galloway border scholars have
launched a kind of joint digital initiative.
You know, I mean, a few years ago,
(27:44):
colleges didn't do joint
initiatives like that.
You know, they were competing for students,
you know, so the world changes quickly.
So try to get yourself into the position
where you're protecting that change.
You know where you're thinking, right?
I think this is where this is going to lead.
So let's start doing that.
You know, so try and get ahead of the game.
You know, look around you learn.
Learn from the people that are good,
(28:05):
learn from the projects that are good
and really try to get ahead of the game.
Try to get.
At the forefront of thought and and
and in the sector you know and if you
can if you get a chance of getting
anywhere near that you get a chance
to talk to people who are doing that
kind of stuff then you'll learn and
then you'll see how the world is
changing and how you can fit into
that and and and and make it work.
(28:26):
So it's it's about looking forward-looking
forward absorbing you know learning
looking forward and trying to think
what you know often often if you
think I think it would be a really
good idea this happened right.
Well that is the idea then you know.
What what do you need to do to
make that happen?
You know, and go off and do it.
You know,
you often do it, you know,
(28:46):
yeah,
I heard someone talk about leadership
and they said the future is on the horizon.
And and if we look,
we can see it.
If we wait for it to come, then it,
you know, we need to be on that horizon.
That's where we need to be looking
and that's where we need to be
focusing our energies.
We need to be pushing on,
you know, and I remember,
(29:08):
you know, one of the times I
launched something in the college,
right, we're going to do this.
It was almost like staff, some staff.
This is like initiative overload, you know?
And it's like, yeah,
but actually if we don't push that
on and we don't push that forward,
we start going backwards, you know?
Yeah.
So, yeah, be on the front foot.
You know in terms of and I I kind of
I I go right back to where I started
(29:29):
there talking about Linda McKay,
you know,
in this tiny weed department and college,
which should only be in for two minutes.
You know and but she was demanding,
she was bringing people in,
national people in and all
this kind of stuff.
She was running exhibitions for them
with the work that was going on.
She was just pushing on,
you know,
and it struck me that as I said that
(29:49):
the confidence in what you're doing,
confidence to put it in front of
people and confidence to go for the next.
2nd is that that it to me that that's
what marks out kind of real leaders.
You know,
it's good taking people with
you at the same time obviously,
but you know that you're going
for the next thing and being
able to kind of shift everybody
with you as is so important.
(30:10):
OK.
I think that has been the fastest
half an hour that I've had in a
very long time and it flies by,
that's for sure.
Really enjoyed it and I really
appreciate those little Nuggets that
you've given and and the honesty.
And just the fact that you've
come on and you've had to share
(30:32):
those little bits of wisdom.
Like I said it's genuinely a pleasure
to do it you know and I'm I'm I'm
happy you know working with CDN is,
is really good and the opportunity to
talk to people and the opportunity
to talk to people who are starting
their journey and people who
are really thinking about it.
You know it's great and it's
it's a great thing we do you know
and I mean you can only,
you can only throw ideas out
(30:53):
of people you know people have
to kind of find their own way.
You don't have to find their own
kind of style and their own their
own drivers you know but that's
one of the things that we've been.
Grand is we've been working with
the nomadic School of Business and
we've been working on their preparing
for executive leadership program.
We've had a Masai elder come and
(31:13):
tell us about leadership and how
it works in these community and and
he said you know there is no such
thing as retiring.
You know Amasai elder never retires
because they have all the wisdom
but the elder does is they they
hand out their feathers of wisdom.
So I think that's beautiful because that's
what you're doing just now and it's great.
(31:34):
It's great. That you're continuing to
do that with CDN and in other ways,
because I know you're involved
in a lot of other things,
but that all that wisdom that you've
gathered that you're prepared to
pass out those feathers to the.
That comparison, Amasai Elder,
I'll have that one, yeah.
OK. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.
(31:56):
Thank you very much. OK, cheers. Bye.
About.
Well, and. Hello and welcome to the first
episode of Leadership Matters Podcast.
The purpose of this mini series of
podcasts is to explore leadership
from different perspectives.
So what can we learn from the past?
What's required for the future,
and where can we draw inspiration from?
(00:28):
And today I am delighted to
be joined by Grant Ritchie.
Grant is a fellow and associate
director of CDN and a former principal
at Dundee and Angus College.
He sits on a range of boards and committees,
and he was awarded the SQA
Fellowship in 2017.
Grant is really passionate about the
ways that colleges can transform the
(00:49):
lives of people in the community,
and he wants to see colleges driving
economic recovery and working with
businesses to make sure that the right
skills are in the right place, right.
And of course, that takes leadership.
Now, over the next 30 minutes,
Grant and I will be chatting
about his leadership journey,
what helped and hindered that journey,
(01:12):
and what advice he'd give to
emerging leaders. So welcome, grant.
Thank you very much indeed, Valerie. Thanks.
I'm delighted to be asked to do this.
And it's just, it's just great to have you,
but you've spent many years working
in education and particularly in
the college sector, both sector,
both as a lecturer and laterally
as a college principal.
(01:33):
Tell us a bit about your leadership journey.
I think my leadership journey started
as soon as I kind of walked through
the doors of the colleges lecture.
I came in a very small department
and it was called life and social
skills at that point.
And we were teaching,
we're teaching life and social skills,
communication and all of that,
to largely YTS kits.
This was the mid 80s.
(01:53):
There was a lot of YTS programs coming
into colleges and it was a tiny department.
It was only me and one other one other
person but but with a department leader
and the department leader was a phenomenon.
You know,
and it was actually Linda McKay who ended up
becoming principal at Forth Valley College,
Chair of the The Trossachs
(02:14):
National Park and and you know,
and a whole lot of other things
and and she was tremendous.
And I was just struck from the
minute I walked in by just the
way Linda got things done.
You know,
and to be operating in a tiny department
in a college which was kind of hostile
largely to things like YTS at that point.
Colleges still some sort of
(02:35):
very academic organizations,
you know, and teaching.
Was exam set syllabus and all
this kind of stuff.
So it would be doing the types
of work that we were doing,
which was very kind of community based,
very experiential and all that.
You know, it wasn't really the done thing.
But the way that Linda got things
done and the way that she just
exercised leadership and you
know was not scared to
(02:56):
go national with ideas and bring people into
college with a kind of a national level.
It was to me it was just stunning
and it opened up watching her then
progress and the progression of our.
Department watching all that just
kind of opened up for me that
you can do anything in college.
You know there's there's there's no
limit to what you can achieve if you
(03:18):
really set your mind to it and if you
get the right conditions and if you
get the right team and if you get the
right ideas then there's absolutely
no limit to what you can achieve.
So I think my leadership journey
started absolutely at that point.
You know within the first couple of
weeks when watching Linda operate just
just kind of opened my eyes to what
college could do and I think I was lucky.
(03:38):
In that, you know I mean I I ended
up with the same culture all of
my kind of career which is highly
unusual but it's the way it works.
But there was a series of really
good leaders that I came across.
You know,
one was the deputy principal at the
same time I was there in in Dundee,
David White,
who was terrific and Ian Evans who
came in as a principal when the
(03:58):
principal that had originally there
left was a terrific principle and had
great ideas and and knew how to lead.
You know so Christina Potter
and followed him.
So I've seen a series of really,
really.
Worked very closely with a series
of really good leaders you know
and it made me actually really
contemplate and think very hard
about leadership you know and and
and begin to exercise it myself.
(04:19):
You know from a very very kind of
early age you know but just try to
seize the initiative on somethings
and just try and be bold you know be
bold and and and try and make things
go in a certain direction and and
see if you can do it you know and
you pick up skills along the way and
you I I ended up formally studying.
Educational leadership.
(04:40):
Many years later,
I did a kind of masters in educational
leadership and that was quite interesting.
You know, came of course a lot
of interesting stuff there.
So, you know, it's,
I'm not saying I set out to be
a college leader and, you know,
it was a path I had absolutely,
you know, decided I was definitely
going to do it just kind of opened up.
But I was found myself tremendously
(05:01):
influenced by really good people around me,
you know, and by watching I'm,
I'm really,
I'm really inspired by that.
It's genuinely really inspired by that.
That you could look around and that you
could see people who were good leaders,
and then that inspired you to be a leader.
But so you named a few.
But tell me,
what was it about them that made
them good? Well, I think you know,
this is a really interesting principal.
(05:22):
You died just a couple of years
ago and he was a complete kind of
workaholic you know and he did
loads of work for Escalade it loads
of work called the Scotland or
whatever it was called at that point.
You know, he was he was constantly
working and constantly on things
and he was a pretty difficult guy
to kind of get along with.
He didn't suffer fools at all you
(05:43):
know and he if he didn't like it
you knew you know and he I could,
I've seen him be.
Pretty brutal to people you know in
meetings you know and and because
he the way he operated you know he
operated he this level all the time
you know and if you fell below that you
know he soon kind of sussed you out.
So there was a kind of a a sense
(06:04):
with him that I he was a bit
scary you know as a leader.
But also the ideas that you had and the
way he presented them and his desire
always to be ahead of the game and
thinking of the next thing and and you know.
Developing the next idea and
developing the next idea and taking
on government over that,
(06:24):
taking on the funding Council over that,
making sure that you know the
the voice of the collector was
heard and all that kind of stuff.
That was really impressive you know and
I I thought he was really impressive.
He had this reputation as being quite fierce.
But when he went in to talk to staff
and big groups and presented you know
there was something about the the
strength of his ideas really that I
(06:45):
thought was really good and really important.
I remember seeing them at some
point when he was doing.
A series of briefings, you know and he was,
he was doing a lot of work with the,
the,
the crowds that were coming in and
he was getting a lot of Q&A and he
was getting a lot of people in groups
and talking and thinking and actually
said to him make sure you get plenty
of yourself in in these presentations
(07:06):
because him doing his thing was just
so interesting and and so powerful you know.
And he really looked and talked
as if he was you know,
straight ahead everybody else,
you know.
In terms of his knowledge and in
terms of where the sector was going
and his knowledge of where the sector
was going and all that kind of stuff,
and that I think that was really
(07:27):
influential to me in terms of a,
in terms of the range of things that
he was involved in, made me think, right.
I need to get involved in some
of these things.
You know,
I need to get involved in
some of these national things.
I need to work out,
you know, where to put my energies
and I'm going to develop the skills
to become a leader, you know,
because you ain't going to do it
in your own college, full stop.
You need to go out and you need to
(07:48):
connect to different organizations.
And what first career for years
various kind of do various jobs various
communities for them changing things
and leading qualification development.
I set up a couple of international
projects that that got industry
and and colleges together.
You know and went out and convinced
everybody to be a part of it.
Convinced colleges to be a part of it,
convinced the funding Council
to support it and all that.
(08:09):
And all these things where I I
don't think I'd have got anywhere
near doing these things I hadn't
seen you know Linda McKay doing
similar stuff that Ian Evans the
way that he just managed to make.
Things happen, you know,
I remember he was giving me a
lift at one point to Sterling.
You know,
we'll go to some event and sterling
and I was going to meet in the next day
and with kind of head industry bodies.
(08:31):
And I said to him,
I've got a meeting all these industry
bodies and it's about this college project.
I'm trying to get all the
colleges together to support it.
And I haven't really got all
the colleges together.
There's only two or three
that she interested in this,
but I'm going to just tell
them you've got them Grant.
You know,
just you tell them you have
got the colleges behind you,
you know because if you win.
These guys over all the
(08:51):
colleges will flood in.
You know, it was just that be bold,
you know, be bold,
get out there, get out there,
talk up the sector and you know,
you, you, you'll get there.
You'll get people supporting you,
you'll get that support to come.
So there was a kind of confidence in his
approach, which I, you know, learned.
You know, it wasn't natural to me,
but I kind of learned it from,
(09:12):
from him, I think, you know.
So there's a few things coming out there.
There's one, one is about authenticity
as a leader and it sounds as if Ian.
Was authentic and also future thinking.
Yeah.
And, and, you know,
sounds a bit a bit fearless,
you know, prepared to take risk,
I should say, rather than fearless.
Yeah. Well, that's absolutely right.
(09:34):
Absolutely.
But there's some,
there's something else because I read
a report recently or it was a piece
of research and it was talking about leaders,
about CEOs.
And there was research done around what are
the treats that are common among CEO's.
And actually there was one that was
outstanding and it was political
(09:54):
acumen and it was knowing that.
And and for me what you've explained
there about when someone said,
you know,
just tell them they've got to get,
get the energy on board,
get these people behind.
There's a bit of political acumen that
comes into play there, isn't there?
There's undoubtedly political acumen.
You need to, you need to think through.
You know what? Uh, whoever it is
that you're trying to go on board.
(10:15):
You know, I had a conversation this
morning with a very influential
kind of civil servant around a
project that I'm involved in.
And, you know, even now I'm thinking, right.
You know, from her point of view,
what is going to be the successful here?
What is really going to push her buttons in
terms of getting involved with this project?
You know, so you have to have
(10:35):
your political antennae,
you know, alert,
and you have to really think things through,
you know, if I've also been in,
in, pretty disastrous.
Conversations when I've gone into
too cocky are assuming that people
would be interested and you find that
they're not really interested, too.
So yeah,
you need to be aware of what the
interests of the people are that you
are trying to get on board, you know?
(10:57):
And you need to be able to,
you know, sell your idea,
sell your college and sell
whatever thing you're trying to,
you know, make happen in a way
that's really going to appeal.
And that takes a lot of thinking.
Sometimes, you know,
just because your college is good
at something doesn't matter.
You know,
if if you're going to sell something to
somebody and you want their influence,
that you want investment,
(11:18):
you've gotta tell them what
you're called is brilliant.
But you've also got to tell them
why that's absolutely critical for
them and why it links into this
latest piece of government thinking,
why it links into this latest
piece of international thinking.
You know,
you need to actually push all of those
buttons to kind of to get through,
you know, and to get noticed.
And I suppose that applies at
(11:38):
a number of levels,
even if you're a first line manager,
if you're a lecturer, if you're a support.
Bruce staff and you have an idea and
you're passionate about something.
You need to sell it by letting
other people know how it,
how it benefits them as well as you.
And absolutely.
And and you need to sell it within the
context of the world that you're living in.
You know.
And I've seen loads of brilliant
ideas and people have come and pitched
(12:00):
great ideas to me in the college about right.
We should be doing this.
You know, listen really good idea.
But actually the conditions probably
aren't there for that to happen
that to happen and that to happen,
you know, so you have to sort of save people.
I don't.
It's a great idea but I don't
think it's gonna work.
What you're going to do first is this,
and then this and then this and then
maybe your idea will come along.
(12:20):
You know, so it's being realistic
about what will actually work and
and and trying to get people to kind
of think through all the angles.
You know, there are a lot of people
in the colleges that get carried
away with their own enthusiasm about
how fantastic things are and they
just assume that will translate to
others and we'll invest others.
Now you've got to think about how
it relates beyond your borders.
(12:41):
You know, for it really to kind
of impressive. Of people,
for it really to be meaningful for folk,
you know well, I think that's,
I think that's a real nugget because I
know in the past I've been passionate
about things and really driven.
And and some of them took off and some
of them didn't and I was thinking no.
But as you say it's just that bigger
picture and seeing how it fits in and
being able to communicate as and and
(13:03):
and and the way that you do that.
The way that you can get good at that
is just by being interested you know
and then reading and thinking and
fall and it's a lot of it's boring
work you know but you know if if a
big report comes out front of Council
of the government is something really
you don't have to read the whole lot.
It's gonna you know pick up the ideas
(13:24):
which way is the world moving with us.
You know and and begin to adopt those ideas,
adopt the language,
adopt the ways of operating,
you know and and you can you can soon
build the skills that allow you to
really connect in other people and
connect in other organizations and
and take take ideas beyond your own.
You know beyond your own world.
So I've heard you talk about other
(13:45):
leaders who were inspirational and
and there you're talking about make
sure you read.
Make sure you learn, make sure you're.
You get to know what that bigger,
bigger picture is in terms of your
own leadership journey.
What else helped that?
I think,
I think the fact that you know I
was working in in a good college
with good people. You know it helps.
(14:07):
You know I think the fact that a
couple people I think recognized
that I had kind of talent or some you
know I could actually help develop
things and make things work and all
that was good and and the college
itself was a good one I think so there's,
there's there's a lot of areas where
you can find help if you can target
the right people and just get to know
them and and and understand them you
(14:28):
know you can find that you can learn.
So much from other people and
just from how they work, you know,
but I think one of, the, one of the.
Best lessons of all is do not get sucked in.
To those who can't see the way forward,
you know, colleges,
all organisations are full of people
who can really push it on and really
(14:50):
make it work and really make it happen.
But also the full of a lot of people
who are maybe great at their job,
you know, great teachers,
great administrators, whatever,
but they become quite kind of jaded
and they become quite cynical and
they can't see the way forward.
And I've seen a lot of good people
in my time getting sucked into that,
you know, and sucked into that.
(15:11):
Never work kind of syndrome,
you know, why bother trying that?
I tried to do that 10 years ago and
it didn't work. You know, there's.
There's a mindset that you have
to avoid at all costs.
You know, colleges are big, complicated,
people are complicated places.
You know,
the history of of trying to make things
happen in the college sector is complicated.
(15:31):
You know, we, you know,
we tend to find ourselves on
the receiving end of cuts of,
of regionalization and all that.
It's been better in the last
kind of a couple of years.
But, you know,
there was a lot of years there where
it looked like the world was against
the college sector and you were
never going to make things happen,
you know, and at times.
Projects fell apart and at times
other partners let you down.
(15:52):
At times you found you'd read it wrong,
you know,
and but the the temptation to
get disappointed and to say,
well, that's that you know,
this is never going to work.
This is just rubbish.
Avoid it at all costs.
If you're the leader,
you have to continue to see that way forward,
no matter how disappointing
things have happened.
No matter if some decision comes in that
you've built up a project for three years,
(16:13):
you've got everybody in the right place,
and then a decision comes down the
line that knocks it sideways, you know?
Don't be disappointed.
You know that happens.
You know, it happens in life.
It happens in big organizations,
it happens in the political world, you know?
So do not let yourself be disappointed.
Always look for the next thing.
Always look for the next idea of
(16:33):
two or three in your back pocket.
So there's always something else
that can come along and get you
excited and get you moving, you know?
So have I got you right in terms
of saying that one of the things
that you need to do as a leader
is to build resilience so that
you can actually just take?
That.
But not take that as a hit and get,
you know,
and just get down about something if
it's not working or it's not taken
(16:55):
off or something that you don't,
but you build the resilience to kind of say,
right, let's look for the next,
let's look to the future rather than.
The big picture,
don't lose sight of the big picture.
You know, you'll get,
you will get bumps along the way.
You'll get things that don't work.
But you know,
what is your absolute big picture?
You know? And my big picture was always,
you know, I want to college to be,
(17:16):
you know, one of the leading
colleges in terms of performance.
I want us to be known as innovators.
I want, I want to encourage all the people
that I've got ideas to use those ideas.
You know, I want to gather people
around me and get the people going who
really want to get a buzz out working
in a college and making it happen,
you know?
And so that was always.
The game and and it was let's grow,
(17:36):
let's grow, let's grow.
Let's never retreat you know and let's
let's let's look for the next thing.
All the time.
Sometimes there's people in my own
college who were like ohh you know
not another initiative you know
and there's it takes all sorts and
in a successful management team
and a successful executive team,
you know and there are people who
just want to get stuff done and
are brilliant process and brilliant
(17:57):
actually making things happen.
And you know I early on you know
I remember somebody saying to me,
yeah you're all about just building
a project.
When you leave it and you go into
something else and it's like that.
Yeah, but the point is, you know,
building something up and getting
people running it and then you
move on to something else,
it's fine because it wouldn't happen
if you hadn't done it, you know.
Yeah.
And so you need to do it and you need
(18:18):
to be constantly looking for what's
the next thing and what's the next thing,
what's the next thing and have a range.
The next things you know that
you're pushing on, you know it's.
And that way you don't get jaded, you know,
that way if out of five big ideas,
two get knocked back, three you get back,
you're still got two, you know,
you still got two shown with, you know and.
Never get disappointed.
(18:38):
You know you'll get disappointed with people.
You'll get disappointed with organizations
because you know you get let down.
But just do not let that become
the defining characteristic.
You crack on, you know and and so far,
so far we've spoken about sort
of leading projects,
leading an organization that
that type of leading,
but when it comes to leading people.
(19:01):
Yep. Tell us what about you?
I think it's about it's
about understanding them.
It's about understanding what
drives them and it's about trying
to make sure that you're getting
the right person in the right slot,
you know and and that comes through
talking and talking, talking,
talking,
talking and beginning to understand
who the doers are,
beginning to understand who the
(19:22):
ones that will actually deliver and
spotting them early in their careers.
I think is is so important.
You know, if you can see the doers and
the ones who are the problem solvers.
And the ones who will actually get on
and do it, find a way to promote them.
You know, find a way to get them
into influential positions as
quickly as you possibly can.
You know, that sounds quite tough and
(19:43):
but sometimes means inventing things
doesn't always mean getting rid of people,
not at all. You know,
people come and people go, you know.
But if you get, if you begin to spot
and then there was a period just.
And before I retired,
it was six or eight months or
so before I left to college.
Or maybe it was just maybe a
bit longer than that,
maybe a year before that, of course.
But I remember being in a room with
(20:05):
a group of kind of a lot of people
who were just into senior management,
you know, and just listening to them
talking and they were talking about, right.
We tried that last year.
That didn't work.
We're going to do this.
We're going to do that.
Now, if I do that,
you'll have to do that.
You'll have to connect to that and
the energy and the sense of natural
improvers being in management positions.
Just gonna struck me, you know,
(20:27):
and they were all in the late 30s, you know,
and I actually thought you've cracked it,
you know,
job done because that's the people,
they are the people who are going to
take on the College in the next 10-15,
twenty years and make sure it
stays where it is, you know,
so developing people is absolutely critical.
And if you're a principal,
(20:47):
the way you develop them is
by giving them time.
You know,
the most important thing you can give them
is time that is like talking to them,
you know, it doesn't.
And it doesn't have to be,
you know, earnest life lessons,
but just talking to them,
talking about what they're doing,
talking about the call,
showing them the attention,
showing them that you really care,
showing them you think they're good,
you know, and telling them they,
they think the work they're
(21:08):
doing is really good.
It's the best possible way.
Encourage people on, you know,
there's anything to do, something great.
Tell them, you know,
go and seek them out, you know,
write them a note with,
you know,
and what about so that that's
kind of leading so that you're
developing future leaders.
What about the people who
maybe don't want to be leaders?
Yeah, I mean,
I think those who don't want to be leaders,
(21:29):
you need to develop the narrative.
That they. At least accept.
You know,
they may not buy into it and say
I want to be a leader in this
organization and I'm going to,
I'm going to sing the college song
and I'm going to become, you know,
100% committed to it, you know.
But if you can,
even with those that are really
tough to reach, you know,
(21:50):
and those that are determinedly
anti management, you know,
and you still have to talk to them
and you still have to say to them,
This is why we're doing what we're doing,
you know, and the way I always
characterize most things work,
that thing I said earlier on about
trying to always make the college.
To go try and make it bigger.
Where's the next idea that'll make it bigger?
Where can we get additional
(22:11):
credits from the funding Council?
Where can we get resource
to grow and grow and grow.
You know if I found that that you
know there were a couple of black
holes and the callers like serious
black holes and I would take any
opportunity to get down and and
talk to them and and and get them
in the room and I remember we're
launched a couple of kind of big.
Project things that we launched
at a member saying, well,
(22:32):
let's launch it with this group 1st and
that group first so they could go in
and actively confront the kind of the.
The difficulties that people
would put in your path, you know,
and I would not,
it was the way that I tried to do it with,
with, you know, difficult staff was just.
The purpose of this is to make
(22:52):
the college grow.
The purpose of this is to keep you in a job.
The purpose of this is to keep your
kids in a job and to be taking old
people and be making sure that
far more people than can benefit
from the college now can benefit
from the College in the future.
That's why we're doing this,
you know, so the you need to nail
the overall purpose of this is,
(23:13):
you know,
and if you can sell it as being something
positive for them and for everybody else,
then you'll you'll you'll have a chance,
I mean. I mean,
it's not all selling positive and big ideas,
you know?
I've had to run and.
Savings plans,
you know where in fact for about
three years that was all it did.
You know you say right we have to
start this year saving £1,000,000,
it's terrible but we've just got
(23:34):
to do it you know and then next
year sorry folks again we're having
to save £1,000,000 you know,
and you just have to get out
there and be honest open,
you know and and but you know
keep a kind of an idea alive of
where you want the college to go.
You know we're needing to do this
because we need to put push it forward
and we need to maintain our reputation,
we need to push on in this area.
(23:55):
So it's dealing with those who are difficult,
dealing with those that have got no
stake in it is it's just psychology,
you know,
you need to think through how am I
going to get these people
inside and you won't.
When you know you won't get them on site,
if you can get them not
being actively oppositional,
then that's maybe the best you can get,
(24:17):
you know. And that's OK because
there's enough people being positive
normally in the course where you going.
And So what I hear you saying
really strongly there is that,
you know, it's not about individuals,
it's not about you or it's
not about any individual,
it's about that shared common purpose.
You know probably there for and.
(24:38):
Trying to make sure that you achieve
that rather than meet everybody's
individual needs and listen to.
Absolutely. Try to address the stuff that.
Individuals aren't happy with.
Yeah, exactly.
And the thing I could do is you
can't do that often enough.
And I said that to people.
We spent all loads of time,
you know,
actually talking to groups of staff
like inordinate amounts of time.
You know,
(24:58):
we would do briefings kind of 3/4 times
a year and because we're multicampus
would do it three times in each campus.
So I was doing,
you know,
kind of similar kind of presentation
maybe 11-12 times over the course
of the fortnight or something like,
you know, just to go in.
But I would nearly always talk
about the successes of the college,
what we've developed and.
Basically say that you have done this.
You know it's not me.
(25:19):
You know you've done this.
You know the fact that we are known
as innovators and learning teaching
us absolutely nothing to do with me.
You know that's you you know you
are the ones that are getting the
great results with the students.
You're the ones are face to
face with the students.
I've got all kinds of difficulties
and you're solving the problems
and you're getting them through.
You know you are gold dust.
You know you are magic.
You know the magic in this college
(25:40):
happens between the teachers
and the and the the students,
you know because if they're successful
you're doing your job properly
and and that that's where the.
The strength of the courts
come from go out and you can't
tell people that often enough.
You know,
and you you the time you devote to doing
that is the best time you'll spend,
you know,
in terms of trying to lead a college
and help people actually go with you.
(26:00):
You know, don't spend all your
time talking to politicians.
You know,
don't spend all your time talking
to the funding Council government.
Speak to your own staff as
often as you possibly can.
And you know with 1000 staff across,
you know, five different campuses,
it's dead hard,
but just you've just got
even more time into doing it.
Yeah.
And just to finish up then,
so there's some lovely bits of,
(26:21):
there's some lovely Nuggets there for me,
the thing about being authentic
and being honest and being
politically astute and.
Really to, you know,
being able to identify the people
who have ideas and who have the
energy and you know, nurturing them,
but also giving other people a voice
and and and letting them know that
(26:42):
what the purpose is and what the,
you know, the collective intention is.
So just to finish up, if you were to,
if you were to give some real advice or
guidance to young leaders that are coming
up now and they're going to be facing these.
You know the challenges that we've got that
we've never seen anything like it before.
(27:03):
What would be the just the key Nuggets
of advice that you want to get off?
That's tough.
It's tough to kind of summarize it.
You know they need to watch and learn.
You know, they need to watch
people who are really good,
watch people are really good and learn,
you know and be prepared to change,
don't get fixed ideas about what
leadership in the college sector is
(27:24):
going to be like or it's like this now.
Therefore it's going to be like this
in 10 years time because it it.
You know,
things are changing to such an extent.
You know the the, the amount of time
people now need to talk in partnership.
I noticed, I noticed that and.
Dumfries and Galloway border scholars have
launched a kind of joint digital initiative.
You know, I mean, a few years ago,
(27:44):
colleges didn't do joint
initiatives like that.
You know, they were competing for students,
you know, so the world changes quickly.
So try to get yourself into the position
where you're protecting that change.
You know where you're thinking, right?
I think this is where this is going to lead.
So let's start doing that.
You know, so try and get ahead of the game.
You know, look around you learn.
Learn from the people that are good,
(28:05):
learn from the projects that are good
and really try to get ahead of the game.
Try to get.
At the forefront of thought and and
and in the sector you know and if you
can if you get a chance of getting
anywhere near that you get a chance
to talk to people who are doing that
kind of stuff then you'll learn and
then you'll see how the world is
changing and how you can fit into
that and and and and make it work.
(28:26):
So it's it's about looking forward-looking
forward absorbing you know learning
looking forward and trying to think
what you know often often if you
think I think it would be a really
good idea this happened right.
Well that is the idea then you know.
What what do you need to do to
make that happen?
You know, and go off and do it.
You know,
you often do it, you know,
(28:46):
yeah,
I heard someone talk about leadership
and they said the future is on the horizon.
And and if we look,
we can see it.
If we wait for it to come, then it,
you know, we need to be on that horizon.
That's where we need to be looking
and that's where we need to be
focusing our energies.
We need to be pushing on,
you know, and I remember,
(29:08):
you know, one of the times I
launched something in the college,
right, we're going to do this.
It was almost like staff, some staff.
This is like initiative overload, you know?
And it's like, yeah,
but actually if we don't push that
on and we don't push that forward,
we start going backwards, you know?
Yeah.
So, yeah, be on the front foot.
You know in terms of and I I kind of
I I go right back to where I started
(29:29):
there talking about Linda McKay,
you know,
in this tiny weed department and college,
which should only be in for two minutes.
You know and but she was demanding,
she was bringing people in,
national people in and all
this kind of stuff.
She was running exhibitions for them
with the work that was going on.
She was just pushing on,
you know,
and it struck me that as I said that
(29:49):
the confidence in what you're doing,
confidence to put it in front of
people and confidence to go for the next.
2nd is that that it to me that that's
what marks out kind of real leaders.
You know,
it's good taking people with
you at the same time obviously,
but you know that you're going
for the next thing and being
able to kind of shift everybody
with you as is so important.
(30:10):
OK.
I think that has been the fastest
half an hour that I've had in a
very long time and it flies by,
that's for sure.
Really enjoyed it and I really
appreciate those little Nuggets that
you've given and and the honesty.
And just the fact that you've
come on and you've had to share
(30:32):
those little bits of wisdom.
Like I said it's genuinely a pleasure
to do it you know and I'm I'm I'm
happy you know working with CDN is,
is really good and the opportunity to
talk to people and the opportunity
to talk to people who are starting
their journey and people who
are really thinking about it.
You know it's great and it's
it's a great thing we do you know
and I mean you can only,
you can only throw ideas out
(30:53):
of people you know people have
to kind of find their own way.
You don't have to find their own
kind of style and their own their
own drivers you know but that's
one of the things that we've been.
Grand is we've been working with
the nomadic School of Business and
we've been working on their preparing
for executive leadership program.
We've had a Masai elder come and
(31:13):
tell us about leadership and how
it works in these community and and
he said you know there is no such
thing as retiring.
You know Amasai elder never retires
because they have all the wisdom
but the elder does is they they
hand out their feathers of wisdom.
So I think that's beautiful because that's
what you're doing just now and it's great.
(31:34):
It's great. That you're continuing to
do that with CDN and in other ways,
because I know you're involved
in a lot of other things,
but that all that wisdom that you've
gathered that you're prepared to
pass out those feathers to the.
That comparison, Amasai Elder,
I'll have that one, yeah.
OK. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.
(31:56):
Thank you very much. OK, cheers. Bye.
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