July 14, 2021 • 28 mins
The second epside of the Leadership Matters mini-series is with Anthony Willoughby. Anthony is an author, explorer and founder of the Nomadic School of Business. During this episode, we chat about what Anthony has learned about leadership from living and working with indigenous communities across the world. We discuss the importance of personal leadership and the collective first, as well as the visionary tool Anthony uses to help people understand their territories.
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(00:07):
Well, hello and welcome to the latest
episode of the Leadership Matters Podcast.
My name is Valerie Jackman and
I'm the leadership lead at CDM.
The purpose of this mini series
podcast is to explore leadership
from different perspectives.
But what can we learn from the past?
What's required for the future,
(00:28):
and where can we draw inspiration from?
Today I am delighted to be
joined by Anthony Willoughby.
Anthony is an author and explorer
and entrepreneur and founder of
the Nomadic School of Business.
Anthony was brought up in Africa and
he has lived and worked and studied
with nomadic families and indigenous
(00:49):
communities from all over the world.
And over the past decades,
Anthony has been working on a visualizing
process called territory mapping.
A process that encourages future thinking
leaders and organizations to tackle the
most complex business and personal solutions.
(01:10):
Over the next 30 minutes,
Anthony and I are going to be
chatting about his journey and life,
his work and what he believes is
important for 21st century leaders.
So welcome, Anthony.
It's an absolute delight to have you here.
Valerie, thanks so much for inviting me.
That's very kind of you.
Much appreciated.
And I've heard some of your story before,
(01:32):
and it's an absolutely fascinating story.
Can you just start by sharing a
little bit of your background?
Yeah, I mean I'm sort of an
eighth generation expatriate.
I was brought up,
as you kindly said,
in Africa when I had a wonderful time,
sort of running around bare feet and
thinking life was wonderful and getting
sent off to an English boarding school,
(01:54):
which I absolutely loathed and couldn't
understand what I was doing there.
But really it's been my background is,
is when I was 22 I set off Japan with a one
way ticket on the Trans Siberian Express.
You know, in search of adventure,
fun, opportunities and excitement.
And you know,
(02:14):
6050 years later,
I'm still on that same journey.
But it's really on these journeys
that I started going off from Japan on
different trips and to Kenya and elsewhere.
And that's when I first sort
of saw the marsai.
And what I really saw is that they had
absolute substance without arrogance.
(02:34):
But I thought,
why on Earth are we at school simply taught
how to be arrogant without substance?
And I sort of thought,
what is it that we've lost?
Why don't we have that natural presence?
And really,
that was 40 years ago,
and it's really been the last 40
years that I've been trying to
understand what it is we've lost.
(02:55):
Probably even the greatest challenge
is how can we get people to
value what we've lost?
How can we actually get people to value?
The past.
And as Nola, my Aboriginal friend,
says,
you know,
we've got to think of ourselves
as being good ancestors.
What does it mean to be a good ancestor?
(03:17):
Do we think about it?
And that importance of thinking
about Collective first?
We spent so much time thinking me,
me, me, because that's our education,
that's what we've been taught.
But indigenous people have spent a lifetime,
thousands of years, first thinking about
the collective but obviously thinking
about their individual contribution.
(03:39):
So sorry about it was a little
bit of a long introduction.
But no, it's lovely,
it's lovely and it's really interesting.
But tell me,
so where's the connection with leadership?
Well, I think that the the real connection
with leadership is that it's not even
talked about in an indigenous community
because everybody knows they're a leader.
(04:00):
I think every single person is
told from the age of three,
in Africa or in Papua New Guinea,
a child is given a goat or in
Papua New Guinea, it's a pig.
Look after that and then the whole
community will be safe, will be valued,
and they know the values,
they know what they're protecting
and they know what they're doing.
(04:22):
And therefore it's not really leadership,
it's just a natural living by
the values and contributing.
And in a way, what it is,
is you've got the power of your personality,
the wealth of your life experience,
and you know how you contribute. OK.
So that's, yeah, that's really interesting.
So at the so at the age of three or
(04:43):
four you start to have responsibility.
Yeah, and the guys through your life,
when you realize that if you contribute,
you will be able to sit around the table
because you have the wisdom to contribute.
And that's what you have to learn.
And as they say in Kenya, you know you,
you can't have someone else to
hold your shield.
(05:04):
You've got to do it yourself.
And so it does teach people that it's
all around contribution and protection.
OK so and then if we take that so I
love that idea but if we take it into.
The here and now and just say,
for example, within the college sector.
(05:26):
Or within the education sector,
how does that then translate?
How, how, what,
how is that relevant to to leadership there?
It's a leadership.
I think it just gives people a sense
that they've got to start realizing
that they're part of an ecosystem.
They're not just on their own,
it is wouldn't they be happier
(05:47):
and feel if they understood
more about how they contribute,
what the bigger picture is,
and ultimately think about
the essence of the children,
that all the students that are within their,
you know, how are they creating leadership,
because how do you give
people trust and hope?
Because that is what I'm told the
(06:08):
ultimate ability of a leader is,
is to give people hope.
Now you might think, well,
that's a bit wishy washy,
but without hope we can't have trust,
and without clarity we can't have trust.
So the question is,
how do you make people feel relevant?
And that is what I think we need today.
It's not how you are answer a question,
(06:31):
it's how do you make people feel relevant,
valued and with a purpose and
therefore they have an identity.
OK,
so I'm starting to weave it
together in my head now, so.
There's something about encouraging
and nurturing individual leadership,
so the leader in everybody.
But also being aware as a
(06:52):
leader of a community like that,
that it is the community and it
is about building that trust and
and supporting that community.
Very much so. But I mean The thing
is you can't sort of have everybody
suddenly thinking they're going to
be communistic and you can't have
everybody thinking they're going to be,
you know, Donald Trump.
(07:12):
And I think it is just making people
aware that there is a gap in between.
And it's not just what you say.
I mean I've been working on this nomadic
crust wheel that, you know you've got.
It's, it's, it's a circle.
It's like the earth and
the northern hemisphere.
You've got what you have to know.
That is the most important.
You have to know your territory.
(07:33):
Your wealth and how you're going to grow it,
that is absolutely essential.
But what you then have is the
southern part of that wheel,
which is around your invisible leadership,
how you contribute your humanity,
your humility.
And this is what is not taught,
and that is what I think is the
essence of what people need today,
(07:55):
is that ability to make people,
as I was saying earlier,
to make them feel relevant.
And they've got their essence
of how they can contribute.
And these are skills that
I've seen are just not taught.
It is just not taught to people on how
you can be relevant in your power to
actually make a difference to people's lives.
(08:17):
This is sounding really inspirational.
Tell me about the, UM,
the visualization tool that you've developed.
Visualization tool is
called territory mapping.
It was a little bit of a story behind it.
And having been with the Masahisa
saying earlier in northern Kenya
and seeing them with their spear.
(08:38):
And I thought, wow,
this is fascinating.
What is it they've got?
And that's when I went to meet the Papa
New Guinea ambassador in Tokyo and I said,
sort of what is it you've
got that we've lost?
You said, why didn't you go
to my territory and find out?
So I went off to Papa New Guinea
into his village.
And I saw people there with feathers
(08:59):
and Spears and Shields, and I said,
So what is it that you've got?
He said, well, the big man has many feathers.
A bigger man can hand out his feathers.
It's about how you contribute to your
community that you have the essence.
And I started to realize that.
And then you have to earn your spear.
You can't buy it. You can't sell it.
But when I got back to Tokyo,
(09:19):
I asked the ambassador what is the
most important thing in your life?
And he looked at me and he said,
it is my territory.
And I know from the age of three
how to protect it. The identity.
My identity comes from looking after
my territory, that is my culture.
And I realize I had no concept
of what was my territory,
(09:40):
what was my identity.
It came from what I owned.
It didn't come from who I was.
And I became fascinated by that.
And that encouraged me to go off
on some journeys and expeditions,
to climb high mountains and do other things.
And then opened the first outdoor team
building center in Japan and China.
Called. I will not complain because I saw
(10:01):
complainers completely destroy morale.
But what I saw is people still said
where do I fit in, where do I belong,
where am I recognized?
Who am I? What's important?
And that's when I realized that
actually every indigenous tribe
has absolute clarity who they are,
what their priorities are
and what their purpose is.
And so I had this idea since they all had a
(10:23):
map and everybody operated off the same map,
I then thought,
what would company employees.
Role and I was asked by Thomson Reuters
to draw get two teams together.
They didn't know each other so
I simply said can I try asking
them to draw their territory.
And what I found absolutely amazing
was everybody could draw a map
(10:44):
of their territory and once they
could draw their territory,
the rivers, mountains, deserts,
swamps, what they were hunting.
Then everybody could share this idea
with each other and once people
could share each other's ideas and.
Hopes and fears,
then they could start working together.
So what I've been doing with this,
(11:04):
visualizing the core territory mapping
is literally to let people draw a
map of how they see their world.
Because then they can articulate
what's important,
why are they trying to do things,
and where everybody else is on the map.
And the trouble is,
there are three things that come out
(11:25):
in every mapping territory mapping
session or territories under threat.
The leaders are isolated.
An internal lack of communication
will probably affect properties
during the first two.
So once you can get people to agree what
their fears are, what their hopes are,
then you can come up with a solution.
So that is really what the mapping
actually does and that visualizing technique,
(11:48):
it unleashes what we have inside us so
we can talk with identity and purpose.
And I like that that you see it.
And this is what we have inside us.
Because it's not as if nobody else can
tell me what my territory map looks like.
It's only me who can who can draw that?
And it's only me who can who can share that.
(12:10):
Absolutely.
And that is it everybody.
But The thing is,
in in an indigenous community,
everybody would know you because
they know what you protected.
They know what you what you were thinking.
And therefore,
every all conversations have got context.
So you're absolutely right.
In the West we've,
we don't know people's territory,
we don't know their hopes.
We they've got a job,
(12:32):
but we don't know who they are
or what they feel is important
or what their values are.
But this process enables people to talk
about what they're passionate about,
whether that's individually or
whether that's collectively.
And and that collective piece
is really important because.
I know from my own experience.
(12:53):
I have my own territory.
Other people have theirs.
And actually there's a gap.
I don't know where their territory is.
So it means that there is in
terms of us communicating and
understanding and working together.
If we, if we're not able to share
and articulate the things that we
see as challenges or the things
that we believe are important.
(13:14):
Then communication is impacted, isn't it?
Well, I don't think you can articulate
something unless you've got a map,
because there's no context
to what you're saying.
We've got to go and find some new customers.
We've got to go and do something.
There's no context,
whether it's in our own life.
And I think that's what we've always had.
(13:34):
And now what we are,
we're robbed from these points of reference.
We're robbed from talking
about what is important.
Because in any indigenous community,
you know, every conversation has context.
The hyenas are coming today.
The weather is changing,
the floods are coming,
the grass is growing and these are
the decisions that then everybody
(13:56):
understands what they need to do.
So by having a map,
it provides that sense of clarity.
And you've worked with some interesting
organizations and got people to
draw maps and share their maps.
Can you tell,
can you give us an example of of what,
what's come out from that kind of work?
One of the most sort of interesting ones
(14:17):
for me was working with the Gates Foundation.
We've done some work with
Bill Gates and Warren Buffett,
some team building on the Great Wall.
And then we worked with the Gates Foundation
and they drew maps at about 6:00 or 7 people,
and everybody drew a different map.
The challenges.
Dealing with the Chinese government,
the China challenge of dealing
with the Gates Foundation,
bridges not built.
(14:38):
And then the head of it drew a map
showing Seattle on one side in America
China over here and Africa down below
and with ropes and and and so then
why couldn't we come up with a plan.
That helps work with the Chinese
(14:59):
government to raise Africa.
And everybody thought,
wow,
that's a fascinating idea.
What could we do that would be
so big an idea?
And they came up with the idea that
why don't we mobilize resources with
the Gates Foundation and with China
to eradicate polio around the world.
(15:21):
And that is the plan that
they actually came up with.
So that's probably one of
the sort of the bigger ones.
But whether we're working with Ferrari,
I mean, you know, they sort of draw.
And mammoths,
they've got everybody attacking them.
They've got.
Rolls Royce private jets trying
to get to that that spend,
how do they protect a lot of the the
(15:44):
maps show the rivers they show you know,
the chairman saying they're
heading for paradise but all the
employees see is ********
bridge fantasy applications,
everybody off on a different island.
So whether they're working with Ferrari,
the Gates Foundation,
Dyson used it when they were setting up
their new ways of using their Air Products.
(16:06):
Because it was a new territory
for the salespeople,
so it cuts through all of the
traditional rationale and gets to
the emotional perceptions and drivers
that that drive people's behaviors.
Wow, that's fascinating.
I know that you are really interested
in bringing this to education,
(16:28):
both in terms of.
Leaders within education.
But I know you're also passionate
about bringing this concept to young
people so that they can get a greater
sense of self and their own territory.
What work have you been doing in that area?
Well, this is where it's really surprised
me because how often people say,
Oh well, young children,
they wouldn't know what they're doing,
(16:49):
but we've actually done it with
11 year olds in Dubai and a
school there and they all drew
these incredible maps about what?
They want to do with their lives,
they want to save people,
they wanna build hospitals,
they want to do things.
And I think this is something that
(17:09):
people really, really don't talk about.
We've also just been running
it for a school in Norfolk,
and we're asking people to think big.
What is it you want to achieve in your
life now that you want to become a doctor?
What do you really want to be known for?
They've never thought about,
they're saying they're struggling.
They've never thought beyond university,
(17:30):
they've never thought about
life is about contribution.
They've never thought that wealth
is beyond owning a Ferrari.
And this is just not taught.
And what we find out is especially
when we involve Emmanuel Mancora,
my marsai friend Krishna,
who's climbed Everest from Nepal
and then joined the Gurkhas in SAS.
(17:51):
Once we bring in people like that,
they start to. Begin to redefine wealth.
Because I think what we have
to do is what is wealth?
Wealth is breathing.
Everyday wealth is being able
to appreciate the day that you
have and really being able to
appreciate you can contribute.
(18:11):
And really they're saying civilization
exists by splitting power,
wealth and status,
and people are always trying to get
the third one or the second one.
But what they have in an indigenous
community as the power of their personality,
the wealth of the life experience and the
status that they know how to contribute.
And this is obviously repeating myself,
(18:32):
but I just think it is so important for
students to realize that if they contribute,
they have identity.
That is what people want today.
They want to have community
building and that is a bigger
skill that I think is lacking.
In schools at the moment
or anywhere in the world,
(18:52):
we're not taught how to build a community.
That is what the one thing that is
taught to everybody in an indigenous
community is how do you contribute
to your community?
And obviously there are
negatives about that.
It becomes nepotistic,
it becomes dictatorial.
There are all sorts of habits
that people don't like.
(19:12):
I'm not saying we've become tribal,
I'm simply saying it provides
another context for conversation.
I love that line, you know,
how do we learn from an early
age how to build a community?
Well, that's my belief.
And that's the one thing that I really
passionately believe is so important.
(19:33):
I really, really do.
So if you are, if you were to
give advice or share your wisdom,
hand out your feathers to young,
emerging leaders.
What are the things that you'd
you'd want to share with them?
I think it's around dream big.
I mean, when I was seventeen I was
(19:54):
writing to every newspaper in London,
in England saying can you
send me to a desert island?
You know I want to do it.
I I want to taking my photographs
along to people saying look,
look at my photographs.
Will you publish it?
I think it's just being ambitious,
being brave,
realizing that life is an adventure.
(20:15):
It's not sitting there getting your exams,
that's a tiny part of of really.
That what you're gonna fulfill in your life.
And it's giving people that hope
beyond school that it's it's
not what you're going to be.
It's just how you're going to
enjoy that journey there and make
them realize and appreciate it.
(20:35):
And for leaders, so for leaders who are.
Just say appointed to their first
or their second leadership role.
And and they and they want to do.
They want to progress in those roles,
but they want to make a really
meaningful leadership contribution.
What would you say to them? Find out.
(20:56):
I mean the lovely expression with the,
marsai once said.
Who's the leader here?
And they looked at me in disbelief.
They said,
what is the problem you're trying to solve?
We have many leaders.
And I think really for leadership now,
the future is not around telling people,
leaders can't know what
they're meant to be doing,
especially if they've just
been appointed there.
The question is how do you get other
(21:18):
people to think they're your ideas?
So how do you say, how would you do this?
What do you think the problem is?
How do you think we did this in the past?
What is the best way of doing it?
That is what leadership is.
It's not telling people.
I mean,
this whole idea of leadership's
gotta be out and know everything.
It just is not true.
(21:38):
The future leader, I believe,
as I said,
is someone who makes people feel relevant,
gives them hope and can talk
about a shared vision and can
articulate what they mean and
what they're passionate about.
And I think we've got to stop
being ashamed by being curious and
being passionate and that we want
to be seen as being courageous.
There's nothing wrong with that.
(22:00):
And humility is a courage.
Oh, that's lovely.
That's wonderful.
So if we're to sum that up,
it's Nyon impossible for me.
But there's there's something at
the core of it about we're part
of a bigger community.
We're and that collective first,
(22:20):
if we can. From an early age,
if we can start to take responsibility
for ourselves and for our community,
but that's leading.
That's leading in a sense.
But we also need to be courageous.
We need to be brave.
We need to be humble.
And that lovely line that you
used about having substance?
(22:40):
We need to be authentic. I'm curious.
And, and really that's what you're seeing.
In order to be a leader for the future,
these are the things that we need to have.
I think so.
I mean, it's what people have taught me.
I mean, I don't know.
I mean I I've no idea.
I mean, every day one worries
about is 1 making a mistake?
Has one got the ideas right?
(23:02):
Does anybody believe me?
I mean, I'm 70.
I'm still worried about exactly
the same things I think it is
sort of enjoying the swamps.
One finds oneself in that.
Sense of inadequacy, insecurity.
We're never gonna get over it.
But I think we just need
people to realize that is fun.
That is life.
(23:23):
That's that's the essence of who we are.
And it's not what you know.
It's how you deal with adversity
and inspire and give others hope.
That's what I think leadership is.
It's it's not knowing something.
It's knowing how to be kind to
people and building relationships.
(23:43):
No, that's music to my ears.
So that is,
that's just absolutely before we finish,
there's one thing that you mentioned
actually that I want to pick up on and
it's about you mentioned something about,
I will not complain.
Let me just a little bit more about that.
Yeah, I can definitely do that.
Basically,
I've been to Papua New Guinea a couple of
(24:03):
times and I then went to see the ambassador.
I've seen a book called
Fly to See Big Rivers,
which are two of the big
rivers in Papua New Guinea.
And basically the spine of Papua
New Guinea is all mountainous.
And so I the two rivers go,
so I sort of thought I'll walk across it.
So I got a an alpha map, aeronautical map,
gave it to the ambassador.
(24:23):
We had about 10 beers and he drew a
line across it, said that's your route.
So I said yes Sir.
So I've seen that there are
villages marked on this map,
this aeronautical map.
So I thought, well,
food is not going to be a problem.
But I was overweight at the time,
so I thought the only problem is, is wine.
So we had 24 bottles of wine, no food.
And I was.
(24:44):
Unaware that actually in Papua
New Guinea there was a meter and
1/2 of rain every month and we'd
arrived in the rainy season.
And so we turn up there with our with
our wine and we head off into the
jungle with extra porters carrying
off 24 bottles of wine for us.
And what happened was one
(25:06):
bloke started complaining,
there was my wife to be, my best man to be,
and a fellow called Phillip and
Phillip complained, complained.
Complained and complained.
And I saw that it just undermines,
destroys morale.
You can't lead, you can't make a
decision if you've got a complainer.
And when I got back to Tokyo,
(25:26):
I mean the fellow had been to the
British ambassador saying will it be
left me for dead, you know, etcetera.
It was quite funny.
But what I saw is I then invited the crime,
a 7000 metre mountain in Western China,
which is the height of Everest S coal.
And I've never climbed a mountain.
So I thought I better go and learn in Africa.
Do Africa.
Three 5000 metre beats Kilimanjaro,
(25:47):
Kenya and Stanley certainly
have my mother-in-law.
My father-in-law.
Everybody wanted to come so I thought right,
how do I keep them?
So I was with my father and I
said how do I keep people off,
complainers off because I don't know,
it's terrible people.
So we came up with a list.
I will not complain and this
list still exists and you know I
got people to sign the document.
(26:09):
I will not complain if I get
eaten or trodden on by animals,
if extra porters employed to carry wine.
If overall the trip has a general
air of British amateurism,
if the trip does not get a
plan and if I complain,
I can be sent home and you know, or I
discover I've got prima Donna tendencies.
Because I just think we need
(26:31):
this philosophy in life.
We can't blame, we can't.
We can't be a victim every time.
We can't have that as an excuse.
You have to realize life is a journey.
We all make mistakes and that
is what we have to do.
We cannot complain.
We have to make observations,
we have to make changes if they're wrong,
(26:51):
but we've got to come up with solutions.
We can't blame other people.
We have to come up with that solution.
And you know, realize, you know,
that life.
I think, you know,
the one thing on life is
Churchill's definition of success.
And success in life to Churchill was
stumbling from one disaster to another
(27:13):
while maintaining one's enthusiasm.
And that is, I think, the essence of life.
That is leadership,
being able to to smile in
adversity and and get on with it.
Anthony will be.
You are inspirational.
And you, you lift, you lift my spirit.
(27:33):
And I just love that idea of not complaining.
Actually, I might be sharing that
with my 12 year old daughter.
I will have to get a bag for her.
But yeah, absolutely.
Anyway, she'll be wearing that in Mongolia.
Yes.
But it makes absolute sense because
it does take the energy and it
does make it difficult to lead.
(27:53):
Absolutely.
Anthony,
we've come to the end of our time for today.
It's been really love it
and thank you for sharing
all that and.
It's been really inspirational
because it's it's real.
It's real, isn't it?
Thank you very much.
Doing very much. Beautiful.
(28:19):
About.
Well, hello and welcome to the latest
episode of the Leadership Matters Podcast.
My name is Valerie Jackman and
I'm the leadership lead at CDM.
The purpose of this mini series
podcast is to explore leadership
from different perspectives.
But what can we learn from the past?
What's required for the future,
(00:28):
and where can we draw inspiration from?
Today I am delighted to be
joined by Anthony Willoughby.
Anthony is an author and explorer
and entrepreneur and founder of
the Nomadic School of Business.
Anthony was brought up in Africa and
he has lived and worked and studied
with nomadic families and indigenous
(00:49):
communities from all over the world.
And over the past decades,
Anthony has been working on a visualizing
process called territory mapping.
A process that encourages future thinking
leaders and organizations to tackle the
most complex business and personal solutions.
(01:10):
Over the next 30 minutes,
Anthony and I are going to be
chatting about his journey and life,
his work and what he believes is
important for 21st century leaders.
So welcome, Anthony.
It's an absolute delight to have you here.
Valerie, thanks so much for inviting me.
That's very kind of you.
Much appreciated.
And I've heard some of your story before,
(01:32):
and it's an absolutely fascinating story.
Can you just start by sharing a
little bit of your background?
Yeah, I mean I'm sort of an
eighth generation expatriate.
I was brought up,
as you kindly said,
in Africa when I had a wonderful time,
sort of running around bare feet and
thinking life was wonderful and getting
sent off to an English boarding school,
(01:54):
which I absolutely loathed and couldn't
understand what I was doing there.
But really it's been my background is,
is when I was 22 I set off Japan with a one
way ticket on the Trans Siberian Express.
You know, in search of adventure,
fun, opportunities and excitement.
And you know,
(02:14):
6050 years later,
I'm still on that same journey.
But it's really on these journeys
that I started going off from Japan on
different trips and to Kenya and elsewhere.
And that's when I first sort
of saw the marsai.
And what I really saw is that they had
absolute substance without arrogance.
(02:34):
But I thought,
why on Earth are we at school simply taught
how to be arrogant without substance?
And I sort of thought,
what is it that we've lost?
Why don't we have that natural presence?
And really,
that was 40 years ago,
and it's really been the last 40
years that I've been trying to
understand what it is we've lost.
(02:55):
Probably even the greatest challenge
is how can we get people to
value what we've lost?
How can we actually get people to value?
The past.
And as Nola, my Aboriginal friend,
says,
you know,
we've got to think of ourselves
as being good ancestors.
What does it mean to be a good ancestor?
(03:17):
Do we think about it?
And that importance of thinking
about Collective first?
We spent so much time thinking me,
me, me, because that's our education,
that's what we've been taught.
But indigenous people have spent a lifetime,
thousands of years, first thinking about
the collective but obviously thinking
about their individual contribution.
(03:39):
So sorry about it was a little
bit of a long introduction.
But no, it's lovely,
it's lovely and it's really interesting.
But tell me,
so where's the connection with leadership?
Well, I think that the the real connection
with leadership is that it's not even
talked about in an indigenous community
because everybody knows they're a leader.
(04:00):
I think every single person is
told from the age of three,
in Africa or in Papua New Guinea,
a child is given a goat or in
Papua New Guinea, it's a pig.
Look after that and then the whole
community will be safe, will be valued,
and they know the values,
they know what they're protecting
and they know what they're doing.
(04:22):
And therefore it's not really leadership,
it's just a natural living by
the values and contributing.
And in a way, what it is,
is you've got the power of your personality,
the wealth of your life experience,
and you know how you contribute. OK.
So that's, yeah, that's really interesting.
So at the so at the age of three or
(04:43):
four you start to have responsibility.
Yeah, and the guys through your life,
when you realize that if you contribute,
you will be able to sit around the table
because you have the wisdom to contribute.
And that's what you have to learn.
And as they say in Kenya, you know you,
you can't have someone else to
hold your shield.
(05:04):
You've got to do it yourself.
And so it does teach people that it's
all around contribution and protection.
OK so and then if we take that so I
love that idea but if we take it into.
The here and now and just say,
for example, within the college sector.
(05:26):
Or within the education sector,
how does that then translate?
How, how, what,
how is that relevant to to leadership there?
It's a leadership.
I think it just gives people a sense
that they've got to start realizing
that they're part of an ecosystem.
They're not just on their own,
it is wouldn't they be happier
(05:47):
and feel if they understood
more about how they contribute,
what the bigger picture is,
and ultimately think about
the essence of the children,
that all the students that are within their,
you know, how are they creating leadership,
because how do you give
people trust and hope?
Because that is what I'm told the
(06:08):
ultimate ability of a leader is,
is to give people hope.
Now you might think, well,
that's a bit wishy washy,
but without hope we can't have trust,
and without clarity we can't have trust.
So the question is,
how do you make people feel relevant?
And that is what I think we need today.
It's not how you are answer a question,
(06:31):
it's how do you make people feel relevant,
valued and with a purpose and
therefore they have an identity.
OK,
so I'm starting to weave it
together in my head now, so.
There's something about encouraging
and nurturing individual leadership,
so the leader in everybody.
But also being aware as a
(06:52):
leader of a community like that,
that it is the community and it
is about building that trust and
and supporting that community.
Very much so. But I mean The thing
is you can't sort of have everybody
suddenly thinking they're going to
be communistic and you can't have
everybody thinking they're going to be,
you know, Donald Trump.
(07:12):
And I think it is just making people
aware that there is a gap in between.
And it's not just what you say.
I mean I've been working on this nomadic
crust wheel that, you know you've got.
It's, it's, it's a circle.
It's like the earth and
the northern hemisphere.
You've got what you have to know.
That is the most important.
You have to know your territory.
(07:33):
Your wealth and how you're going to grow it,
that is absolutely essential.
But what you then have is the
southern part of that wheel,
which is around your invisible leadership,
how you contribute your humanity,
your humility.
And this is what is not taught,
and that is what I think is the
essence of what people need today,
(07:55):
is that ability to make people,
as I was saying earlier,
to make them feel relevant.
And they've got their essence
of how they can contribute.
And these are skills that
I've seen are just not taught.
It is just not taught to people on how
you can be relevant in your power to
actually make a difference to people's lives.
(08:17):
This is sounding really inspirational.
Tell me about the, UM,
the visualization tool that you've developed.
Visualization tool is
called territory mapping.
It was a little bit of a story behind it.
And having been with the Masahisa
saying earlier in northern Kenya
and seeing them with their spear.
(08:38):
And I thought, wow,
this is fascinating.
What is it they've got?
And that's when I went to meet the Papa
New Guinea ambassador in Tokyo and I said,
sort of what is it you've
got that we've lost?
You said, why didn't you go
to my territory and find out?
So I went off to Papa New Guinea
into his village.
And I saw people there with feathers
(08:59):
and Spears and Shields, and I said,
So what is it that you've got?
He said, well, the big man has many feathers.
A bigger man can hand out his feathers.
It's about how you contribute to your
community that you have the essence.
And I started to realize that.
And then you have to earn your spear.
You can't buy it. You can't sell it.
But when I got back to Tokyo,
(09:19):
I asked the ambassador what is the
most important thing in your life?
And he looked at me and he said,
it is my territory.
And I know from the age of three
how to protect it. The identity.
My identity comes from looking after
my territory, that is my culture.
And I realize I had no concept
of what was my territory,
(09:40):
what was my identity.
It came from what I owned.
It didn't come from who I was.
And I became fascinated by that.
And that encouraged me to go off
on some journeys and expeditions,
to climb high mountains and do other things.
And then opened the first outdoor team
building center in Japan and China.
Called. I will not complain because I saw
(10:01):
complainers completely destroy morale.
But what I saw is people still said
where do I fit in, where do I belong,
where am I recognized?
Who am I? What's important?
And that's when I realized that
actually every indigenous tribe
has absolute clarity who they are,
what their priorities are
and what their purpose is.
And so I had this idea since they all had a
(10:23):
map and everybody operated off the same map,
I then thought,
what would company employees.
Role and I was asked by Thomson Reuters
to draw get two teams together.
They didn't know each other so
I simply said can I try asking
them to draw their territory.
And what I found absolutely amazing
was everybody could draw a map
(10:44):
of their territory and once they
could draw their territory,
the rivers, mountains, deserts,
swamps, what they were hunting.
Then everybody could share this idea
with each other and once people
could share each other's ideas and.
Hopes and fears,
then they could start working together.
So what I've been doing with this,
(11:04):
visualizing the core territory mapping
is literally to let people draw a
map of how they see their world.
Because then they can articulate
what's important,
why are they trying to do things,
and where everybody else is on the map.
And the trouble is,
there are three things that come out
(11:25):
in every mapping territory mapping
session or territories under threat.
The leaders are isolated.
An internal lack of communication
will probably affect properties
during the first two.
So once you can get people to agree what
their fears are, what their hopes are,
then you can come up with a solution.
So that is really what the mapping
actually does and that visualizing technique,
(11:48):
it unleashes what we have inside us so
we can talk with identity and purpose.
And I like that that you see it.
And this is what we have inside us.
Because it's not as if nobody else can
tell me what my territory map looks like.
It's only me who can who can draw that?
And it's only me who can who can share that.
(12:10):
Absolutely.
And that is it everybody.
But The thing is,
in in an indigenous community,
everybody would know you because
they know what you protected.
They know what you what you were thinking.
And therefore,
every all conversations have got context.
So you're absolutely right.
In the West we've,
we don't know people's territory,
we don't know their hopes.
We they've got a job,
(12:32):
but we don't know who they are
or what they feel is important
or what their values are.
But this process enables people to talk
about what they're passionate about,
whether that's individually or
whether that's collectively.
And and that collective piece
is really important because.
I know from my own experience.
(12:53):
I have my own territory.
Other people have theirs.
And actually there's a gap.
I don't know where their territory is.
So it means that there is in
terms of us communicating and
understanding and working together.
If we, if we're not able to share
and articulate the things that we
see as challenges or the things
that we believe are important.
(13:14):
Then communication is impacted, isn't it?
Well, I don't think you can articulate
something unless you've got a map,
because there's no context
to what you're saying.
We've got to go and find some new customers.
We've got to go and do something.
There's no context,
whether it's in our own life.
And I think that's what we've always had.
(13:34):
And now what we are,
we're robbed from these points of reference.
We're robbed from talking
about what is important.
Because in any indigenous community,
you know, every conversation has context.
The hyenas are coming today.
The weather is changing,
the floods are coming,
the grass is growing and these are
the decisions that then everybody
(13:56):
understands what they need to do.
So by having a map,
it provides that sense of clarity.
And you've worked with some interesting
organizations and got people to
draw maps and share their maps.
Can you tell,
can you give us an example of of what,
what's come out from that kind of work?
One of the most sort of interesting ones
(14:17):
for me was working with the Gates Foundation.
We've done some work with
Bill Gates and Warren Buffett,
some team building on the Great Wall.
And then we worked with the Gates Foundation
and they drew maps at about 6:00 or 7 people,
and everybody drew a different map.
The challenges.
Dealing with the Chinese government,
the China challenge of dealing
with the Gates Foundation,
bridges not built.
(14:38):
And then the head of it drew a map
showing Seattle on one side in America
China over here and Africa down below
and with ropes and and and so then
why couldn't we come up with a plan.
That helps work with the Chinese
(14:59):
government to raise Africa.
And everybody thought,
wow,
that's a fascinating idea.
What could we do that would be
so big an idea?
And they came up with the idea that
why don't we mobilize resources with
the Gates Foundation and with China
to eradicate polio around the world.
(15:21):
And that is the plan that
they actually came up with.
So that's probably one of
the sort of the bigger ones.
But whether we're working with Ferrari,
I mean, you know, they sort of draw.
And mammoths,
they've got everybody attacking them.
They've got.
Rolls Royce private jets trying
to get to that that spend,
how do they protect a lot of the the
(15:44):
maps show the rivers they show you know,
the chairman saying they're
heading for paradise but all the
employees see is ********
bridge fantasy applications,
everybody off on a different island.
So whether they're working with Ferrari,
the Gates Foundation,
Dyson used it when they were setting up
their new ways of using their Air Products.
(16:06):
Because it was a new territory
for the salespeople,
so it cuts through all of the
traditional rationale and gets to
the emotional perceptions and drivers
that that drive people's behaviors.
Wow, that's fascinating.
I know that you are really interested
in bringing this to education,
(16:28):
both in terms of.
Leaders within education.
But I know you're also passionate
about bringing this concept to young
people so that they can get a greater
sense of self and their own territory.
What work have you been doing in that area?
Well, this is where it's really surprised
me because how often people say,
Oh well, young children,
they wouldn't know what they're doing,
(16:49):
but we've actually done it with
11 year olds in Dubai and a
school there and they all drew
these incredible maps about what?
They want to do with their lives,
they want to save people,
they wanna build hospitals,
they want to do things.
And I think this is something that
(17:09):
people really, really don't talk about.
We've also just been running
it for a school in Norfolk,
and we're asking people to think big.
What is it you want to achieve in your
life now that you want to become a doctor?
What do you really want to be known for?
They've never thought about,
they're saying they're struggling.
They've never thought beyond university,
(17:30):
they've never thought about
life is about contribution.
They've never thought that wealth
is beyond owning a Ferrari.
And this is just not taught.
And what we find out is especially
when we involve Emmanuel Mancora,
my marsai friend Krishna,
who's climbed Everest from Nepal
and then joined the Gurkhas in SAS.
(17:51):
Once we bring in people like that,
they start to. Begin to redefine wealth.
Because I think what we have
to do is what is wealth?
Wealth is breathing.
Everyday wealth is being able
to appreciate the day that you
have and really being able to
appreciate you can contribute.
(18:11):
And really they're saying civilization
exists by splitting power,
wealth and status,
and people are always trying to get
the third one or the second one.
But what they have in an indigenous
community as the power of their personality,
the wealth of the life experience and the
status that they know how to contribute.
And this is obviously repeating myself,
(18:32):
but I just think it is so important for
students to realize that if they contribute,
they have identity.
That is what people want today.
They want to have community
building and that is a bigger
skill that I think is lacking.
In schools at the moment
or anywhere in the world,
(18:52):
we're not taught how to build a community.
That is what the one thing that is
taught to everybody in an indigenous
community is how do you contribute
to your community?
And obviously there are
negatives about that.
It becomes nepotistic,
it becomes dictatorial.
There are all sorts of habits
that people don't like.
(19:12):
I'm not saying we've become tribal,
I'm simply saying it provides
another context for conversation.
I love that line, you know,
how do we learn from an early
age how to build a community?
Well, that's my belief.
And that's the one thing that I really
passionately believe is so important.
(19:33):
I really, really do.
So if you are, if you were to
give advice or share your wisdom,
hand out your feathers to young,
emerging leaders.
What are the things that you'd
you'd want to share with them?
I think it's around dream big.
I mean, when I was seventeen I was
(19:54):
writing to every newspaper in London,
in England saying can you
send me to a desert island?
You know I want to do it.
I I want to taking my photographs
along to people saying look,
look at my photographs.
Will you publish it?
I think it's just being ambitious,
being brave,
realizing that life is an adventure.
(20:15):
It's not sitting there getting your exams,
that's a tiny part of of really.
That what you're gonna fulfill in your life.
And it's giving people that hope
beyond school that it's it's
not what you're going to be.
It's just how you're going to
enjoy that journey there and make
them realize and appreciate it.
(20:35):
And for leaders, so for leaders who are.
Just say appointed to their first
or their second leadership role.
And and they and they want to do.
They want to progress in those roles,
but they want to make a really
meaningful leadership contribution.
What would you say to them? Find out.
(20:56):
I mean the lovely expression with the,
marsai once said.
Who's the leader here?
And they looked at me in disbelief.
They said,
what is the problem you're trying to solve?
We have many leaders.
And I think really for leadership now,
the future is not around telling people,
leaders can't know what
they're meant to be doing,
especially if they've just
been appointed there.
The question is how do you get other
(21:18):
people to think they're your ideas?
So how do you say, how would you do this?
What do you think the problem is?
How do you think we did this in the past?
What is the best way of doing it?
That is what leadership is.
It's not telling people.
I mean,
this whole idea of leadership's
gotta be out and know everything.
It just is not true.
(21:38):
The future leader, I believe,
as I said,
is someone who makes people feel relevant,
gives them hope and can talk
about a shared vision and can
articulate what they mean and
what they're passionate about.
And I think we've got to stop
being ashamed by being curious and
being passionate and that we want
to be seen as being courageous.
There's nothing wrong with that.
(22:00):
And humility is a courage.
Oh, that's lovely.
That's wonderful.
So if we're to sum that up,
it's Nyon impossible for me.
But there's there's something at
the core of it about we're part
of a bigger community.
We're and that collective first,
(22:20):
if we can. From an early age,
if we can start to take responsibility
for ourselves and for our community,
but that's leading.
That's leading in a sense.
But we also need to be courageous.
We need to be brave.
We need to be humble.
And that lovely line that you
used about having substance?
(22:40):
We need to be authentic. I'm curious.
And, and really that's what you're seeing.
In order to be a leader for the future,
these are the things that we need to have.
I think so.
I mean, it's what people have taught me.
I mean, I don't know.
I mean I I've no idea.
I mean, every day one worries
about is 1 making a mistake?
Has one got the ideas right?
(23:02):
Does anybody believe me?
I mean, I'm 70.
I'm still worried about exactly
the same things I think it is
sort of enjoying the swamps.
One finds oneself in that.
Sense of inadequacy, insecurity.
We're never gonna get over it.
But I think we just need
people to realize that is fun.
That is life.
(23:23):
That's that's the essence of who we are.
And it's not what you know.
It's how you deal with adversity
and inspire and give others hope.
That's what I think leadership is.
It's it's not knowing something.
It's knowing how to be kind to
people and building relationships.
(23:43):
No, that's music to my ears.
So that is,
that's just absolutely before we finish,
there's one thing that you mentioned
actually that I want to pick up on and
it's about you mentioned something about,
I will not complain.
Let me just a little bit more about that.
Yeah, I can definitely do that.
Basically,
I've been to Papua New Guinea a couple of
(24:03):
times and I then went to see the ambassador.
I've seen a book called
Fly to See Big Rivers,
which are two of the big
rivers in Papua New Guinea.
And basically the spine of Papua
New Guinea is all mountainous.
And so I the two rivers go,
so I sort of thought I'll walk across it.
So I got a an alpha map, aeronautical map,
gave it to the ambassador.
(24:23):
We had about 10 beers and he drew a
line across it, said that's your route.
So I said yes Sir.
So I've seen that there are
villages marked on this map,
this aeronautical map.
So I thought, well,
food is not going to be a problem.
But I was overweight at the time,
so I thought the only problem is, is wine.
So we had 24 bottles of wine, no food.
And I was.
(24:44):
Unaware that actually in Papua
New Guinea there was a meter and
1/2 of rain every month and we'd
arrived in the rainy season.
And so we turn up there with our with
our wine and we head off into the
jungle with extra porters carrying
off 24 bottles of wine for us.
And what happened was one
(25:06):
bloke started complaining,
there was my wife to be, my best man to be,
and a fellow called Phillip and
Phillip complained, complained.
Complained and complained.
And I saw that it just undermines,
destroys morale.
You can't lead, you can't make a
decision if you've got a complainer.
And when I got back to Tokyo,
(25:26):
I mean the fellow had been to the
British ambassador saying will it be
left me for dead, you know, etcetera.
It was quite funny.
But what I saw is I then invited the crime,
a 7000 metre mountain in Western China,
which is the height of Everest S coal.
And I've never climbed a mountain.
So I thought I better go and learn in Africa.
Do Africa.
Three 5000 metre beats Kilimanjaro,
(25:47):
Kenya and Stanley certainly
have my mother-in-law.
My father-in-law.
Everybody wanted to come so I thought right,
how do I keep them?
So I was with my father and I
said how do I keep people off,
complainers off because I don't know,
it's terrible people.
So we came up with a list.
I will not complain and this
list still exists and you know I
got people to sign the document.
(26:09):
I will not complain if I get
eaten or trodden on by animals,
if extra porters employed to carry wine.
If overall the trip has a general
air of British amateurism,
if the trip does not get a
plan and if I complain,
I can be sent home and you know, or I
discover I've got prima Donna tendencies.
Because I just think we need
(26:31):
this philosophy in life.
We can't blame, we can't.
We can't be a victim every time.
We can't have that as an excuse.
You have to realize life is a journey.
We all make mistakes and that
is what we have to do.
We cannot complain.
We have to make observations,
we have to make changes if they're wrong,
(26:51):
but we've got to come up with solutions.
We can't blame other people.
We have to come up with that solution.
And you know, realize, you know,
that life.
I think, you know,
the one thing on life is
Churchill's definition of success.
And success in life to Churchill was
stumbling from one disaster to another
(27:13):
while maintaining one's enthusiasm.
And that is, I think, the essence of life.
That is leadership,
being able to to smile in
adversity and and get on with it.
Anthony will be.
You are inspirational.
And you, you lift, you lift my spirit.
(27:33):
And I just love that idea of not complaining.
Actually, I might be sharing that
with my 12 year old daughter.
I will have to get a bag for her.
But yeah, absolutely.
Anyway, she'll be wearing that in Mongolia.
Yes.
But it makes absolute sense because
it does take the energy and it
does make it difficult to lead.
(27:53):
Absolutely.
Anthony,
we've come to the end of our time for today.
It's been really love it
and thank you for sharing
all that and.
It's been really inspirational
because it's it's real.
It's real, isn't it?
Thank you very much.
Doing very much. Beautiful.
(28:19):
About.
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