July 21, 2021 • 22 mins
The third epside of the Leadership Matters mini-series is with Janet Whitley, Collective Leadership Lead at Scottish Government. Janet discusses the work of Collective leadership Scotland, how they support partners and colleagues from across the public sector in the practice of collaboration and collective leadership and how leaders in the FE sector can become involved.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
Well, hello and welcome to the latest
episode of the Leadership Matters Podcast.
My name is Valerie Jackman and
I'm leadership lead at CDN.
The purpose of this miniseries is to explore
leadership from different perspectives.
What can we learn from the past?
What's required for the future and from
where can we draw inspiration today I am
(00:29):
delighted to be joined by Janet Whitley,
collective leadership lead
at Scottish Government.
Janet is an experienced public service
leader who was undertaken a range
of roles that have enabled her to
directly influence the future shape and
strategic direction of organizations.
She thrives on the challenge of instigating
(00:51):
and delivering organizational development,
finding ways to place people and communities
at the heart of collective leadership work.
Over the next 30 minutes,
Janet and I are going to be chatting
about the work of collective
leadership Scotland and how leaders
in the Fe sector may become involved.
(01:12):
So Janet,
I've been fortunate enough to be
involved in a number of project and
developmental activities offered
by collective leadership,
but for the benefit of the listeners,
what exactly is collective
Leadership Scotland?
Thanks for that,
Valerie and thank you for your introduction,
and I think collectively to ship
(01:32):
for Scotland is really drawing very
much upon the Christie report,
which is as we're all recognizing is now
10 years old and which really put the
ideas of collaboration and participation
right at the center of what we need
to do in terms of our public services.
With a strong emphasis on communities
and how we can work together to
(01:53):
improve those outcomes for communities.
So the work of collective leadership.
Again,
when the Christie report came out
back in in 2011 and it's been a a
gradual evolution since that time,
working very deliberately with partners
and colleagues and organisations
right across public services,
seeking to develop ways of offering
(02:15):
development that can help our partners
and our colleagues in the practice of
collaboration and collective leadership.
So that's that was our origins
and the works developed.
Over time,
to have a really clear strategy
over the last couple of years,
which is is absolutely recognizing
that working and leading in
(02:37):
the times that we're in,
particularly when we're thinking
about the complex societal issues
that that many of us are working on.
It's absolutely clear that none
of us can solve those on her own.
The there's an absolute requirement
to think about bringing partners and
(02:58):
colleagues together around these issues,
and collective leadership offers a
range of practices to support the
development of that collective leadership
to address complex societal issues.
OK,
that that's a.
That's a lovely description,
and if we're to dig down a little bit more
so you're seeing a range of practices,
(03:19):
what kind of practices?
Yes,
I think the practice of leadership
builds on a range of different sorts
of theories which underpin them.
But you're right to draw attention
to the practices,
because for me,
that's actually what
makes very accessible and
very distinctive. What we're offering
through collective leadership.
So there's five key elements in terms
of what we think of in terms of.
(03:41):
The core components of collective leadership.
The first is about practices
that support to self reflection,
and I think you know,
many of us today are experiencing the rapid,
demanding piece of work.
I'm actually taking the time to pause,
to reflect, to have its stillness,
however small,
(04:01):
can make an enormous difference
between being able to think through
maybe a different approach,
or to engage with a partner.
In a different kind of week,
so that would be the first component
building in self reflection building in
that that opportunity to pause and Mr
practices like journaling or or you know,
(04:21):
I guess different different ways of
thinking of building in mindfulness
practice or lots of different things.
But it's all about creating that
pause creating that that stillness
that allow us to be truly present
in the work that we do.
The second is is about,
I suppose understanding that we're
working in complex living systems and
(04:44):
thinking about the practice of leadership
as it applies to complex living systems.
So it's not about our kind of,
UM,
linear approach.
Accepting that a hierarchical and
linear approach is unlikely to provide
us with the solutions when we're
thinking about complex societal issues,
and so embracing ways of working which.
(05:06):
Recognize that they were
working with with uncertainty.
We're working with not knowing in
lots of different sorts of ways
we're working with with some,
I suppose,
a practice that offers us a recognition
that there's not a linear path to
get to an end point is that that
probably requires a different mindset,
(05:27):
so it kind of practiced about working
in complexity and what that might mean.
The third element is about our working
with curiosity and an inquiring stance.
So coming into the situation
losing that sense of being you,
perhaps a hierarchical leader
who has to have the answer.
(05:48):
And recognizing that again,
just keep coming back to to the fact
that we're thinking about really
wicked complex societal issues.
It's not a model of leadership
that applies to every single issue,
but for those sorts of issues.
Recognizing that.
Coming in with with some thoughtful
questions and an openness in terms
(06:10):
of what what other people might
might offer into those questions
is is most likely to to allow us to
make progress around the issues.
So I kind of inquiring stance would
mean we wouldn't have a foregone
conclusion in our minds about what's
going to come out of our particular
meeting or a particular conversation
(06:31):
that we're genuinely listening to
contributions from other partners
and colleagues, and that we.
We have an openness to what comes
from those diverse perspectives so
that that kind of model that we use
within that is action inquiry and
and that really allows us to think
about carefully phrased questions
to delve more deeply into what
(06:52):
the possibilities are.
With a range of partners
and to try stuff out.
It's it's about, you know,
I guess trying things and
learning from that as well.
4th Aspect is about relational practices.
So, so recognizing this is about
human relations in a group,
it's about again listening with
(07:14):
depth and intent surfacing the
diversity of views with with
the weeds that we ask questions,
building relationships,
and recognizing the importance of that,
and so with that that kind
of whole relational strand,
and also recognizing that in
any group that's working on
an you know an issue would be.
(07:34):
Our management group or at your
Community planning partnership.
Whatever the group,
how that functions as a whole array
of human relations dimensions as well.
So just having awareness about all of
those relational different aspects.
And then finally the final practice
is about just recognizing that we're
(07:55):
working with emergence and so having
a comfort and developing a comfort
with working with emergence and
finding ways to take action in uncertainty.
And think about different ways of knowing.
For example,
different practices that allow us to to
perhaps not just think intellectually
about what the the the possibilities are,
(08:15):
but to use different ways of knowing
and working with what we have.
So that's possibly quite a
long winded answer,
but that would be in a nutshell,
what I would say collective leadership is,
well, do you know that's so lovely?
Because I have been involved with
collectively different for number of years,
and I have never.
(08:35):
Before I heard it distilled
down into those five key points,
and I know that because
of my own involvement.
I mean I would say that that the learning
my own learning through collective
leadership has been most the most
significant learning that I've ever done.
You know,
looking at the different
programs that you've offered.
(08:57):
So that's a beautiful insight.
And thank you so much.
Can you give us an example of maybe one of
the projects that you've that you've done?
Yes, I'm really happy to share
something with you family.
I guess what comes to mind was
quickly for me is some work
that we're doing at present.
So a program of work with local
(09:17):
UM groupings of senior leaders
from police and local government.
So at the moment we're working with
two different localities and it's
really an opportunity to work with.
I suppose a blend of the theories and
models and inputs around collective
leadership and what we mean by that.
Really,
really importantly,
offering support in the practices of,
(09:40):
you know the sorts of things that
we've just been talking about.
And supporting colleagues in a group
to work around a real complex issue
that they are actually working on
in their work in that locality,
and so that's really key element
of what we've tended to do with
collective leadership is to recognize
that the learning is most likely
(10:01):
to have the greatest potency.
If it's based on actual real work.
So I don't mean I kind of project
that's that's invented. I mean,
the actual work that people are doing.
Yeah, and so this work with police.
Local government has associates at the moment
were working in two different localities,
and so there's there's senior leaders
(10:23):
from the police and from the local
government come in in that locality
in both instances and sometimes
some other organisations as well.
Learning together and then
practicing together over.
I guess some initial program input and
some supported action inquiry groups
to begin to explore the work together,
(10:44):
I think, UM.
What's been really interesting
about that work is, you know,
gets very quickly a recognition of
how different even some of these
things that we might make quite
sound quite simple when we see them
how different and countercultural
they can feel when you're coming
out of a very different environment,
(11:04):
but also how quickly our group
can really gel.
And at present it's it's offered
online so offered in an online
environment how quickly.
The commonality of experience and and
the ability to really open up to a
new way of doing things can can occur is is,
you know,
it is quite incredible.
(11:25):
So even after the first session,
a full day session,
we would always come in bed.
A reflective questions and in bed
inquiry and in the work that we're doing
we already had participants coming back.
Having gone back to their teams and
come back a few few weeks later
talking about how their teams in
(11:46):
notice they were different how they
were pausing how they were reflecting,
more how they were holding their team,
means meetings in a different kind of way,
how they were holding themselves
back from coming in with answers.
We're in.
In normal circumstances,
they would come straight straight in
with answers and so just it might
sound like quite small changes,
(12:06):
but I suppose what we're interested
in is that those personal reflections.
And then the ripple effects and
how the change in her manager is
or a leisurely in a particular
situation and how they're behaving
with their team can immediately
throw up different possibilities in
terms of what might happen around
the issue that they're working on,
(12:27):
and so that I guess it feels very
real to me because I'm hearing each
of the sessions I'm hearing the very
life accounts from the leaders who
participating in the program of what
is happening differently for them.
In their view,
work and so that's very reassuring,
in a way that that we are on to
something that makes a difference,
(12:49):
and it can make a difference quite
quickly with some quite small changes,
but also absolutely recognizing that
that that's working against the culture.
And I don't know what you value,
but at present it feels as if the
piece of work and the the kind of
rapid expectations that surround us
in much of her work of Rich reached a
(13:11):
kind of dumb.
You know the heightened level that that
that I don't never experienced before,
so I think it would always feel
countercultural to do some of these things,
but actually know it.
Probably even more so than ever before,
and so, I guess, just recognizing
that some of these small changes,
building in some of the practices
can start to illustrate quite quickly
(13:32):
to groups of leaders that there's
something there's something in this
and it can make a real difference
for them and for their teams,
and their potential for their way to work.
Yes, I I think that's just
so necessary for now.
For these times, you know we,
we hear about Luca times or complex times,
(13:53):
but.
As you say,
we we are working in this kind of
heightened sense where we need or
we we feel we need answers and
solutions quicker all the time.
But what you're saying is,
if we're taking the time to
actually listen and explore,
we can come to much and much
more meaningful solutions.
I've got that right.
Yes, no, I think that's exactly right.
(14:14):
Valerie, in terms of, and I suppose,
just that.
That kind of,
UM?
The freeing effect of allowing some
timing seems to be experienced by
and I guess the the work with police
and local government is one example,
but you're right to signal the
role of facilitation as well,
because that's always seemed really,
really important in the work
(14:35):
that we've been doing,
so I suppose it's a recognition
that making these sorts of
changes in a piece of work.
Can be incredibly difficult and
still having some really skilled
facilitation to work alongside a
leadership group or or you know,
group that's working on an issue
can be the game changer in terms of
(14:55):
actually holding the space holding,
uh,
my guess that that kind of
awareness of some of the models
and and and the approaches that
are most likely to be helpful.
Yeah,
I'm trying to really hold back
from the tendency to revert to
the way that we've always done.
Things, yeah,
just we know if we keep on
(15:16):
doing things that we yeah yeah.
We we all know the phrase I think and
what we're looking for now is is better.
It comes actually and the opportunity
to to really appreciate that that
for some of these issues they've
been such long standing issues.
My dogs barking.
Is that gonna ruin the distance?
Not at all. Not at all.
If it wasn't here as it was going to be
(15:38):
minor, somebody elses, so that's lovely.
These sorts of longstanding issues.
There can be a feeling of
hopelessness as well,
so so I guess that kind of sense.
Well, we've tried this,
so we've tried that and
nothing seems to work.
And and you,
the figures are going in
entirely the opposite direction.
(15:59):
So what often?
I think we experiences is our recognition.
Actually,
we need to try something different.
The there's nothing.
Or not, for that seems to be offering.
Route so if it means starting
off a bit more slowly.
I mean what I always think is that
actually by by going more slowly,
the chances are you'll get more
(16:20):
quickly to a better outcome.
In basement in in per reflection
engagement is far more likely to get to.
You are more fitting, UM,
set of progress and you know more
fitting outcome than something
that's just been kind of rapidly.
UM, thought out because somebody
was on a really, really,
(16:41):
really tight time skill.
Yeah, so tell me if if leaders
from the college sector,
then we're interested in becoming involved.
Well, how, how would it could it benefit?
Then what could they potentially bring
up and how would they get involved?
I think there's lots of different ways.
(17:01):
Valerie and I also recognize that
there will be lots of different
kinds of people who are leaders in
in your current network as well,
and there might be different things it would.
You know they would enjoy doing
more than others.
I mean,
there's a number of programs that we offer.
We offer introductory workshops
around collective leadership,
and they're available every month,
(17:21):
and then we offer some workshops around
the practices of collective leadership,
and they're also available every month now,
and we've got a global.
We just ship campfire.
Come online mini festival coming up
on the 1st and 2nd of September.
So with all of these sorts of events
and activities and programs that we
offer that entirely open you deliberately,
(17:43):
entirely open.
But you know these would be some of
the general opportunities for our
colleagues in the college sector
to come along and get involved.
And in terms of the the UM
leadership camp fires, for example,
there's an opportunity to work.
West colleagues, internationally,
they've they've arisen from international
(18:04):
collaborations from colleagues in New
Zealand and in the US and and I guess,
a lot of interesting themes
internationally about collective
leadership and an opportunity to
come together in in the idea of our
campfire conversation around those.
So that might be a particular example.
But over the year we have a lot
(18:24):
of those sorts of opportunities.
So in the spring next year we'll have.
Our another festival of
collective leadership,
which again will be an
opportunity for attending,
participating and hosting a
whole range of different events
around collective leadership.
What people have tried, what we know,
what people have learned,
(18:45):
and sharing examples,
sharing experiences so those would
be a couple of possibilities and
that would be immediately available.
But I would also say is within our team,
in in collective leadership.
We're always curious.
About exploring the strategic
interventions that we can offer and
that we can make with particular
(19:06):
sectors or in particular geographies
where there's an appetite to
do something and we are.
There's an appetite.
You have to be supported
perhaps than some learning,
so that would be another route that would
always be open if there were a group of
college leaders who wanted, you know,
fuller explanation of what we can offer.
Or you know if there was working around a
(19:28):
particular issue or a particular locality.
Then we would always be interested in
exploring what the possibilities are,
and then finally another thing to
perhaps just mention is our facilitation
and leadership development programs.
So that's an in depth in normal
times residential program at present,
and online and full week long program,
(19:51):
which is really going below the
surface in terms of perhaps the the
human relations aspects as well as
all of the different practices.
Around collective leadership,
really recognizing that there's
a role of facilitator,
but there's also a role in terms
of being a facilitative leader,
and that both things can come together.
(20:12):
So that's a further program that
that we offer,
and the next one of those is in November,
but the details are all available
on our website, Valerie,
but I think I would always be
open for our conversation as my
colleagues in the practice team.
If there was anything in particular that
that that it was of interest to explore.
(20:32):
Arthur,
and well I I have I'm there are so many
things there for me that I can see and.
Would be hugely beneficial for
our Fe sector or college sector.
And there's also what our leaders in the
college sector might bring in terms of
their own experience and your knowledge,
and it's connecting to that bigger system.
(20:53):
And as you see, the bigger system isn't
just out with a particular sector.
Now we have to work globally.
And as you say, what you're offering does,
it has that kind of reach that
you're reaching out and sensing it.
What else is there?
So you're saying everything
that you've described?
This now is under website,
so people can go and start to explore
and they can even contact you directly.
(21:14):
Campaign, yes,
that's right.
And and through social media
as well we we tend to provide
links for for what we're up to.
If you want to follow us on Twitter,
you can follow collective leadership,
and that's often a good route to just keep up
to date with anything new that's come out.
But we just try and always make sure
that the website is up to date with with
(21:35):
everything that we're doing as well.
Yeah, well,
that's wonderful.
Thank you so much for sharing that
for giving us an insight as to what
collective leadership for Scotland is,
what it,
what it does,
how how it works and and what you have to
offer to to the sector to the Fe sector.
It's always great to see some further
colleagues starting to get involved,
(21:55):
and I suppose the purpose behind
these sorts of events is is
absolutely as you're describing.
It's not. About a min.
True collective leadership.
Since it's not about us having all
the answers, it's about recognizing
that everyone who participates
has likely got some learning to
offer and something to share.
So it's a very reciprocal kind
(22:16):
of arrangement. OK, Janice,
thank you again for your time today.
I can't believe how quickly
that time has gone and.
Very grateful for what you've
shared with us today tonight.
Thank you very much for the opportunity,
Valerie, thank you, thank you.
Mostly about.
Well, hello and welcome to the latest
episode of the Leadership Matters Podcast.
My name is Valerie Jackman and
I'm leadership lead at CDN.
The purpose of this miniseries is to explore
leadership from different perspectives.
What can we learn from the past?
What's required for the future and from
where can we draw inspiration today I am
(00:29):
delighted to be joined by Janet Whitley,
collective leadership lead
at Scottish Government.
Janet is an experienced public service
leader who was undertaken a range
of roles that have enabled her to
directly influence the future shape and
strategic direction of organizations.
She thrives on the challenge of instigating
(00:51):
and delivering organizational development,
finding ways to place people and communities
at the heart of collective leadership work.
Over the next 30 minutes,
Janet and I are going to be chatting
about the work of collective
leadership Scotland and how leaders
in the Fe sector may become involved.
(01:12):
So Janet,
I've been fortunate enough to be
involved in a number of project and
developmental activities offered
by collective leadership,
but for the benefit of the listeners,
what exactly is collective
Leadership Scotland?
Thanks for that,
Valerie and thank you for your introduction,
and I think collectively to ship
(01:32):
for Scotland is really drawing very
much upon the Christie report,
which is as we're all recognizing is now
10 years old and which really put the
ideas of collaboration and participation
right at the center of what we need
to do in terms of our public services.
With a strong emphasis on communities
and how we can work together to
(01:53):
improve those outcomes for communities.
So the work of collective leadership.
Again,
when the Christie report came out
back in in 2011 and it's been a a
gradual evolution since that time,
working very deliberately with partners
and colleagues and organisations
right across public services,
seeking to develop ways of offering
(02:15):
development that can help our partners
and our colleagues in the practice of
collaboration and collective leadership.
So that's that was our origins
and the works developed.
Over time,
to have a really clear strategy
over the last couple of years,
which is is absolutely recognizing
that working and leading in
(02:37):
the times that we're in,
particularly when we're thinking
about the complex societal issues
that that many of us are working on.
It's absolutely clear that none
of us can solve those on her own.
The there's an absolute requirement
to think about bringing partners and
(02:58):
colleagues together around these issues,
and collective leadership offers a
range of practices to support the
development of that collective leadership
to address complex societal issues.
OK,
that that's a.
That's a lovely description,
and if we're to dig down a little bit more
so you're seeing a range of practices,
(03:19):
what kind of practices?
Yes,
I think the practice of leadership
builds on a range of different sorts
of theories which underpin them.
But you're right to draw attention
to the practices,
because for me,
that's actually what
makes very accessible and
very distinctive. What we're offering
through collective leadership.
So there's five key elements in terms
of what we think of in terms of.
(03:41):
The core components of collective leadership.
The first is about practices
that support to self reflection,
and I think you know,
many of us today are experiencing the rapid,
demanding piece of work.
I'm actually taking the time to pause,
to reflect, to have its stillness,
however small,
(04:01):
can make an enormous difference
between being able to think through
maybe a different approach,
or to engage with a partner.
In a different kind of week,
so that would be the first component
building in self reflection building in
that that opportunity to pause and Mr
practices like journaling or or you know,
(04:21):
I guess different different ways of
thinking of building in mindfulness
practice or lots of different things.
But it's all about creating that
pause creating that that stillness
that allow us to be truly present
in the work that we do.
The second is is about,
I suppose understanding that we're
working in complex living systems and
(04:44):
thinking about the practice of leadership
as it applies to complex living systems.
So it's not about our kind of,
UM,
linear approach.
Accepting that a hierarchical and
linear approach is unlikely to provide
us with the solutions when we're
thinking about complex societal issues,
and so embracing ways of working which.
(05:06):
Recognize that they were
working with with uncertainty.
We're working with not knowing in
lots of different sorts of ways
we're working with with some,
I suppose,
a practice that offers us a recognition
that there's not a linear path to
get to an end point is that that
probably requires a different mindset,
(05:27):
so it kind of practiced about working
in complexity and what that might mean.
The third element is about our working
with curiosity and an inquiring stance.
So coming into the situation
losing that sense of being you,
perhaps a hierarchical leader
who has to have the answer.
(05:48):
And recognizing that again,
just keep coming back to to the fact
that we're thinking about really
wicked complex societal issues.
It's not a model of leadership
that applies to every single issue,
but for those sorts of issues.
Recognizing that.
Coming in with with some thoughtful
questions and an openness in terms
(06:10):
of what what other people might
might offer into those questions
is is most likely to to allow us to
make progress around the issues.
So I kind of inquiring stance would
mean we wouldn't have a foregone
conclusion in our minds about what's
going to come out of our particular
meeting or a particular conversation
(06:31):
that we're genuinely listening to
contributions from other partners
and colleagues, and that we.
We have an openness to what comes
from those diverse perspectives so
that that kind of model that we use
within that is action inquiry and
and that really allows us to think
about carefully phrased questions
to delve more deeply into what
(06:52):
the possibilities are.
With a range of partners
and to try stuff out.
It's it's about, you know,
I guess trying things and
learning from that as well.
4th Aspect is about relational practices.
So, so recognizing this is about
human relations in a group,
it's about again listening with
(07:14):
depth and intent surfacing the
diversity of views with with
the weeds that we ask questions,
building relationships,
and recognizing the importance of that,
and so with that that kind
of whole relational strand,
and also recognizing that in
any group that's working on
an you know an issue would be.
(07:34):
Our management group or at your
Community planning partnership.
Whatever the group,
how that functions as a whole array
of human relations dimensions as well.
So just having awareness about all of
those relational different aspects.
And then finally the final practice
is about just recognizing that we're
(07:55):
working with emergence and so having
a comfort and developing a comfort
with working with emergence and
finding ways to take action in uncertainty.
And think about different ways of knowing.
For example,
different practices that allow us to to
perhaps not just think intellectually
about what the the the possibilities are,
(08:15):
but to use different ways of knowing
and working with what we have.
So that's possibly quite a
long winded answer,
but that would be in a nutshell,
what I would say collective leadership is,
well, do you know that's so lovely?
Because I have been involved with
collectively different for number of years,
and I have never.
(08:35):
Before I heard it distilled
down into those five key points,
and I know that because
of my own involvement.
I mean I would say that that the learning
my own learning through collective
leadership has been most the most
significant learning that I've ever done.
You know,
looking at the different
programs that you've offered.
(08:57):
So that's a beautiful insight.
And thank you so much.
Can you give us an example of maybe one of
the projects that you've that you've done?
Yes, I'm really happy to share
something with you family.
I guess what comes to mind was
quickly for me is some work
that we're doing at present.
So a program of work with local
(09:17):
UM groupings of senior leaders
from police and local government.
So at the moment we're working with
two different localities and it's
really an opportunity to work with.
I suppose a blend of the theories and
models and inputs around collective
leadership and what we mean by that.
Really,
really importantly,
offering support in the practices of,
(09:40):
you know the sorts of things that
we've just been talking about.
And supporting colleagues in a group
to work around a real complex issue
that they are actually working on
in their work in that locality,
and so that's really key element
of what we've tended to do with
collective leadership is to recognize
that the learning is most likely
(10:01):
to have the greatest potency.
If it's based on actual real work.
So I don't mean I kind of project
that's that's invented. I mean,
the actual work that people are doing.
Yeah, and so this work with police.
Local government has associates at the moment
were working in two different localities,
and so there's there's senior leaders
(10:23):
from the police and from the local
government come in in that locality
in both instances and sometimes
some other organisations as well.
Learning together and then
practicing together over.
I guess some initial program input and
some supported action inquiry groups
to begin to explore the work together,
(10:44):
I think, UM.
What's been really interesting
about that work is, you know,
gets very quickly a recognition of
how different even some of these
things that we might make quite
sound quite simple when we see them
how different and countercultural
they can feel when you're coming
out of a very different environment,
(11:04):
but also how quickly our group
can really gel.
And at present it's it's offered
online so offered in an online
environment how quickly.
The commonality of experience and and
the ability to really open up to a
new way of doing things can can occur is is,
you know,
it is quite incredible.
(11:25):
So even after the first session,
a full day session,
we would always come in bed.
A reflective questions and in bed
inquiry and in the work that we're doing
we already had participants coming back.
Having gone back to their teams and
come back a few few weeks later
talking about how their teams in
(11:46):
notice they were different how they
were pausing how they were reflecting,
more how they were holding their team,
means meetings in a different kind of way,
how they were holding themselves
back from coming in with answers.
We're in.
In normal circumstances,
they would come straight straight in
with answers and so just it might
sound like quite small changes,
(12:06):
but I suppose what we're interested
in is that those personal reflections.
And then the ripple effects and
how the change in her manager is
or a leisurely in a particular
situation and how they're behaving
with their team can immediately
throw up different possibilities in
terms of what might happen around
the issue that they're working on,
(12:27):
and so that I guess it feels very
real to me because I'm hearing each
of the sessions I'm hearing the very
life accounts from the leaders who
participating in the program of what
is happening differently for them.
In their view,
work and so that's very reassuring,
in a way that that we are on to
something that makes a difference,
(12:49):
and it can make a difference quite
quickly with some quite small changes,
but also absolutely recognizing that
that that's working against the culture.
And I don't know what you value,
but at present it feels as if the
piece of work and the the kind of
rapid expectations that surround us
in much of her work of Rich reached a
(13:11):
kind of dumb.
You know the heightened level that that
that I don't never experienced before,
so I think it would always feel
countercultural to do some of these things,
but actually know it.
Probably even more so than ever before,
and so, I guess, just recognizing
that some of these small changes,
building in some of the practices
can start to illustrate quite quickly
(13:32):
to groups of leaders that there's
something there's something in this
and it can make a real difference
for them and for their teams,
and their potential for their way to work.
Yes, I I think that's just
so necessary for now.
For these times, you know we,
we hear about Luca times or complex times,
(13:53):
but.
As you say,
we we are working in this kind of
heightened sense where we need or
we we feel we need answers and
solutions quicker all the time.
But what you're saying is,
if we're taking the time to
actually listen and explore,
we can come to much and much
more meaningful solutions.
I've got that right.
Yes, no, I think that's exactly right.
(14:14):
Valerie, in terms of, and I suppose,
just that.
That kind of,
UM?
The freeing effect of allowing some
timing seems to be experienced by
and I guess the the work with police
and local government is one example,
but you're right to signal the
role of facilitation as well,
because that's always seemed really,
really important in the work
(14:35):
that we've been doing,
so I suppose it's a recognition
that making these sorts of
changes in a piece of work.
Can be incredibly difficult and
still having some really skilled
facilitation to work alongside a
leadership group or or you know,
group that's working on an issue
can be the game changer in terms of
(14:55):
actually holding the space holding,
uh,
my guess that that kind of
awareness of some of the models
and and and the approaches that
are most likely to be helpful.
Yeah,
I'm trying to really hold back
from the tendency to revert to
the way that we've always done.
Things, yeah,
just we know if we keep on
(15:16):
doing things that we yeah yeah.
We we all know the phrase I think and
what we're looking for now is is better.
It comes actually and the opportunity
to to really appreciate that that
for some of these issues they've
been such long standing issues.
My dogs barking.
Is that gonna ruin the distance?
Not at all. Not at all.
If it wasn't here as it was going to be
(15:38):
minor, somebody elses, so that's lovely.
These sorts of longstanding issues.
There can be a feeling of
hopelessness as well,
so so I guess that kind of sense.
Well, we've tried this,
so we've tried that and
nothing seems to work.
And and you,
the figures are going in
entirely the opposite direction.
(15:59):
So what often?
I think we experiences is our recognition.
Actually,
we need to try something different.
The there's nothing.
Or not, for that seems to be offering.
Route so if it means starting
off a bit more slowly.
I mean what I always think is that
actually by by going more slowly,
the chances are you'll get more
(16:20):
quickly to a better outcome.
In basement in in per reflection
engagement is far more likely to get to.
You are more fitting, UM,
set of progress and you know more
fitting outcome than something
that's just been kind of rapidly.
UM, thought out because somebody
was on a really, really,
(16:41):
really tight time skill.
Yeah, so tell me if if leaders
from the college sector,
then we're interested in becoming involved.
Well, how, how would it could it benefit?
Then what could they potentially bring
up and how would they get involved?
I think there's lots of different ways.
(17:01):
Valerie and I also recognize that
there will be lots of different
kinds of people who are leaders in
in your current network as well,
and there might be different things it would.
You know they would enjoy doing
more than others.
I mean,
there's a number of programs that we offer.
We offer introductory workshops
around collective leadership,
and they're available every month,
(17:21):
and then we offer some workshops around
the practices of collective leadership,
and they're also available every month now,
and we've got a global.
We just ship campfire.
Come online mini festival coming up
on the 1st and 2nd of September.
So with all of these sorts of events
and activities and programs that we
offer that entirely open you deliberately,
(17:43):
entirely open.
But you know these would be some of
the general opportunities for our
colleagues in the college sector
to come along and get involved.
And in terms of the the UM
leadership camp fires, for example,
there's an opportunity to work.
West colleagues, internationally,
they've they've arisen from international
(18:04):
collaborations from colleagues in New
Zealand and in the US and and I guess,
a lot of interesting themes
internationally about collective
leadership and an opportunity to
come together in in the idea of our
campfire conversation around those.
So that might be a particular example.
But over the year we have a lot
(18:24):
of those sorts of opportunities.
So in the spring next year we'll have.
Our another festival of
collective leadership,
which again will be an
opportunity for attending,
participating and hosting a
whole range of different events
around collective leadership.
What people have tried, what we know,
what people have learned,
(18:45):
and sharing examples,
sharing experiences so those would
be a couple of possibilities and
that would be immediately available.
But I would also say is within our team,
in in collective leadership.
We're always curious.
About exploring the strategic
interventions that we can offer and
that we can make with particular
(19:06):
sectors or in particular geographies
where there's an appetite to
do something and we are.
There's an appetite.
You have to be supported
perhaps than some learning,
so that would be another route that would
always be open if there were a group of
college leaders who wanted, you know,
fuller explanation of what we can offer.
Or you know if there was working around a
(19:28):
particular issue or a particular locality.
Then we would always be interested in
exploring what the possibilities are,
and then finally another thing to
perhaps just mention is our facilitation
and leadership development programs.
So that's an in depth in normal
times residential program at present,
and online and full week long program,
(19:51):
which is really going below the
surface in terms of perhaps the the
human relations aspects as well as
all of the different practices.
Around collective leadership,
really recognizing that there's
a role of facilitator,
but there's also a role in terms
of being a facilitative leader,
and that both things can come together.
(20:12):
So that's a further program that
that we offer,
and the next one of those is in November,
but the details are all available
on our website, Valerie,
but I think I would always be
open for our conversation as my
colleagues in the practice team.
If there was anything in particular that
that that it was of interest to explore.
(20:32):
Arthur,
and well I I have I'm there are so many
things there for me that I can see and.
Would be hugely beneficial for
our Fe sector or college sector.
And there's also what our leaders in the
college sector might bring in terms of
their own experience and your knowledge,
and it's connecting to that bigger system.
(20:53):
And as you see, the bigger system isn't
just out with a particular sector.
Now we have to work globally.
And as you say, what you're offering does,
it has that kind of reach that
you're reaching out and sensing it.
What else is there?
So you're saying everything
that you've described?
This now is under website,
so people can go and start to explore
and they can even contact you directly.
(21:14):
Campaign, yes,
that's right.
And and through social media
as well we we tend to provide
links for for what we're up to.
If you want to follow us on Twitter,
you can follow collective leadership,
and that's often a good route to just keep up
to date with anything new that's come out.
But we just try and always make sure
that the website is up to date with with
(21:35):
everything that we're doing as well.
Yeah, well,
that's wonderful.
Thank you so much for sharing that
for giving us an insight as to what
collective leadership for Scotland is,
what it,
what it does,
how how it works and and what you have to
offer to to the sector to the Fe sector.
It's always great to see some further
colleagues starting to get involved,
(21:55):
and I suppose the purpose behind
these sorts of events is is
absolutely as you're describing.
It's not. About a min.
True collective leadership.
Since it's not about us having all
the answers, it's about recognizing
that everyone who participates
has likely got some learning to
offer and something to share.
So it's a very reciprocal kind
(22:16):
of arrangement. OK, Janice,
thank you again for your time today.
I can't believe how quickly
that time has gone and.
Very grateful for what you've
shared with us today tonight.
Thank you very much for the opportunity,
Valerie, thank you, thank you.
Mostly about.
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