July 28, 2021 • 37 mins
The final epside of the Leadership Matters mini-series is with Roddy Millar – Founder and CEO of ideas for leaders, and Co-Founder of the Scottish Leadership Institute. Roddy discusses his work as a writer and publisher in the fields of executive education, management and leadership. Roddy works with international business schools and we will be exploring the emerging trends in leadership practice across the world.
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(00:08):
Hello and welcome to the latest
episode of Leadership Matters.
My name is Valerie Jackman and
I'm leadership leader at CDN.
The purpose of this miniseries is to explore
leadership from different perspectives.
What can we learn from the past?
What's required for the future,
and where can we draw inspiration from?
Today I'm delighted to be
(00:28):
joined by Roddy Miller,
Rudy's founder and CEO of Ideas for leaders.
Which works with research faculty
and thought leaders from the
top global business schools and
consultancies across the world.
But he's also co-founder of the
Scottish Leadership Institute,
an organization focused on increasing
(00:49):
awareness and impact of good leadership
practice on organizations performance.
Welcome Rudy. Thank you, Valerie.
Great to be here.
Roddy,
tell us a bit about this work that
you do then with ideas for leaders.
Well, I mean it comes from an increasing
passion that I have around leadership
(01:10):
and behavior of people in organization.
I suppose it dials back to my work
in the 1990s with a a publishers
in London and I found myself editor
of a large term on executive
education that needed to have some
articles put around it to make it
(01:32):
a little bit more exciting and.
Um,
that put me in touch with working
with these big global business
schools all around the world.
And in fact I took over that business
or that publication in the early
2000s and we set it up independently
and and took it online and.
(01:53):
Since then I I've been working with lots of.
Leading faculty at at business
schools around the world,
the likes of Wharton and Chicago
and Kellogg and the States and
London Business School, Oxford said.
And and others here in Europe and.
Increasingly drawn to the work that
(02:13):
they do and the research that they've
been uncovering and investigating on,
on the leadership side on on how
people work together in organizations.
And so that's where ideas for
leaders grew out of it.
It summarizes academic papers
and academic papers and journals
(02:34):
can be pretty turgid.
Not even academics really like reading them,
but.
The fact that there's a there's a statistic
somewhere that says on average six people
read an Business School academic papers,
which is a fairly appalling statistic.
But they do contain,
many of them do contain some really
(02:54):
interesting and applicable information.
And that's what we try and capture,
those ones which have a real
relevance to society and business.
And there are plenty that don't,
but that we try and capture the
ones that do and summarize them
down and make them easy to access.
And digest for people outside academia.
And as I say,
(03:16):
quite a lot of people inside academia too.
Right.
Oh, that's wonderful.
So tell me how then if I wanted to
access those, how do I access them?
So they're all largely free to
access on ideas for leaders.com.
So just go to ideasforleaders.com and hope,
hopefully the the website should
(03:36):
spring open in front of you.
And it's it's supposed to be reasonably
intuitive to find your way around that,
there's a good search function and
you can type in whatever topics.
That that seem relevant and and
we've now got very nearly 1000 of
these short summaries available.
So there should be something if it's
(03:57):
work related that that that pops up.
So for me, I'm getting a sense that you're.
Connecting with people who are doing
research who are starting to be able
to sense into or be aware of what.
Is going to be required of our
leaders for the 21st century,
(04:17):
our future leaders.
What are the kind of trends and things
that you're picking up from there?
I think.
I think I'm in in in a really privileged
position because I get to speak to
all sorts of thinkers and and as I
say academics and researchers who
who are exploring these ideas and
(04:39):
as editor of of ideas for leaders
and also the the magazine developing
leaders that we published to.
You know I get exposed to lots
of different perspectives around
this but what is really clear is.
That.
We are moving away dramatically
(04:59):
from command and control,
which was the 19th and 20th centuries.
Where a staggering period for humanity,
particularly in the Western world,
in the increase in efficiency that.
We we created,
and the progress and the increase
in wealth that has come with that
(05:19):
is is truly staggering if you
look at it compared to,
you know,
the changes over centuries before
where you know people 567 generations
previous to anyone would be living at
a fairly similar existence to them.
But you know,
you only need to look one generation back,
let alone two or three,
and see how how our lives have transformed
(05:40):
in terms of air travel or digital Internet,
whatever it may be.
Umm.
SO1920 centuries were were extraordinary,
but and one of the things that
drove them forward was, you know,
the creation of these large organizations
which have now become extraordinarily large
(06:01):
organizations with income and power much,
much greater than.
Many small countries. But.
With size comes huge complexity and
the way that we tackle complexity
in these organizations is putting
in lots of process and lots of
(06:21):
layers and layers and process.
Effectively dehumanize our our roles in
organizations and people lose their sense of.
Purpose in them and if you don't have
a sense of purpose then you you you
slightly lose your energy around this.
So the 21st century is going to is very
(06:41):
different and the demands on on 21st century.
Organizations are to be much more creative,
much more innovative.
I was speaking to Martin Reeves,
who's the chairman of the Boston
Consulting Group's Henderson Institute,
their internal think tank,
BCG being the the Big Strategic Global
(07:02):
Strategic company earlier this week.
In fact,
I've got a very good podcast with them,
so I'll put a plug in for that.
But he,
he was saying that you know what he
calls the fade rate of organizations,
which is how how quickly they
peak and and then then disappear.
Again,
is just increasing all the time
and 2020 years ago if you were
(07:24):
in the top 10% of organizations,
if if your organization is one of
the top top 10% of organizations,
there was a fair chance there was
a 70% chance that in 20 years
time or 10101020 years time,
you'd still still be in that position,
whereas that's now.
Gone down to below 20%.
So big organizations are disappearing
(07:46):
quickly that your your time at
the top is very limited and.
The reason is because innovation is
coming thick and fast and and and and
change is is increasing rapidly and
and So what do organizations need?
Organizations need people who can
adapt and be innovative and creative
(08:08):
and and that doesn't tend to happen
in the heavily structured matrix
organizations and of of the last century.
So there's a big shift there and and.
So that's what that's what we're seeing.
Sort of taking place now that that that
that's the change that's required and
and it's a big mental shift as well
(08:29):
as being a an organizational shift.
So it fascinates me around you
know how that's being implemented.
I was speaking to HR practitioner
this morning actually who was talking
about the the changes and that even
from a recruitment perspective there
are things that we will need to factor
(08:50):
in that we haven't factored in before
because of how quickly things change
and the skills that people will need
and the competencies that people will
need to be able to work going forward.
Even being able to work from home,
being able to work remotely,
being able to to iterate and
reiterate quite quickly so.
And that kind of kind of aligns
(09:10):
with what you're what you're seeing
there absolutely and and and yeah we
see on these surveys of what what
capacities and skills are being
required of organizations now we're
seeing far more around critical
thinking and and agility and and the
and being resilient and self starter
(09:30):
the ship and and things like that.
And then the really interesting
thing is that you know we've just
been through this most.
Extraordinary period of that.
We haven't quite got that got out of it,
but hopefully we're about
to start coming out of it.
Extraordinary period over the last
15 months with the pandemic and.
(09:51):
Before 15 months ago.
Organizations thought the idea of
having people working out of out
of their line of sight was a crazy
idea and couldn't be done.
And there was this lack of trust,
lack of faith in people at all levels and.
(10:15):
Then it was forced upon us,
and and lo and behold.
The productivity rate in in in many
respects in many areas of those
people you know not everyone can
work from home and and and clearly
there are there there are jobs and
careers that they have to happen in
a place of work but we've seen that
those people who can work from home.
(10:37):
Stepped up to not I stepped up to
the mark but but really blossomed
in this and and and found that
freedom that autonomy that agency to
manage their day manage their lives.
Was quite energizing and and and
increased their ability or their
levels of productivity.
So the fact that you may want to go and.
Put some the clothes in in the washing
(10:58):
machine or go and collect the child
from school or something like that.
Mundane which has to be done in any case,
but you can fit it into your working day.
That, you know,
between telephone calls and it's good to
stand up from your desk and walk about.
So you might as well go and do that.
Yeah.
You know,
that actually becomes something
(11:20):
pretty positive.
And so there's this realization that that
people are working because they want to work,
not because you just get paid
at the end of the month.
It's a spectrum.
And clearly there are going to be instances
that that that doesn't happen on,
but the vast majority of people
want to do a good job.
(11:43):
Again,
I had a conversation with
somebody in the college
sector recently about trust
and about trusting people,
trusting colleagues.
And there has been such a
shift in in the Fe sector.
So people are working from home,
they're teaching from home.
And and exactly what what you said
(12:03):
there I've seen happen in that people.
Might need to walk the dog or nip up
to take TK Maxx to return something,
or you know, go to being queue to
pick up a tin of paint or whatever,
but they'll fit that into their their day.
Not at the cost of the
work that they're doing,
(12:23):
but they'll work it around it
so that they can actually show
up better when they need to and
and focus and better when they,
when they need to and when they can.
And I think there's another,
there's another layer thin layer to
that too which is and and and you know
this because I think you do walking
meditation and stuff for people.
I think you mentioned that
(12:45):
to me before but you know.
You probably don't get much time to
do that at work because there's an
element of being appraised watched
of what you're doing in the office.
But if you go off and walk the
dog when you've just had a quite a
heavy conversation about something,
something work related,
that gives you the time to percolate
(13:07):
those thoughts and distill them and
and and come up with some fresh ideas.
So it may may be quite generative.
Again, you know,
it's not going to be always the case.
It's not, it's not a rule,
but that I think it creates this
my my definition of leadership of
people who create the conditions for
(13:28):
for others to do their best work.
And,
and I think we've created slightly
inadvertently this condition where
others can do really good work.
From home.
And it's by giving them that that
sense of autonomy and that sense of
agency and and sense of responsibility.
Yeah, yeah.
And trust,
(13:48):
that idea of trust really sits
at the heart of it as well.
I have a question for you,
just in all the people that
you've spoken to and all the
the research you've done,
I think most people will get it that they're,
you know, that we're, we're,
we're in a time of change.
Not we're moving into a time of change,
but we're in a time of Iraq change
(14:10):
where we do need to be adaptable and
flexible and lean and agile and all these
things and we need to be comfortable.
But in many organizations,
there are cultures that
are very different to that.
So in your own research,
is there anything and the different
interviews that you've had?
(14:31):
So if I'm a leader in an organization
that has been quite hierarchical,
top down command and control,
quite bureaucratic,
how am I going to even start to think
about supporting the workforce?
So that we can make the shift
to a different
(14:52):
kind of culture.
That that's a brilliant question.
And it is. It is it by and large,
the big question.
It alternately has to be sanctioned
and approved from the top it.
It's very difficult to
try and have this more.
Fluid sort of devolved leadership.
(15:15):
If it's not,
if it's not flowing from the top, so.
You you you're going to struggle.
Otherwise,
if if your senior leaders think everyone
needs to show up in Serried ranks
and and and carry out the instructions,
then try trying to.
(15:35):
Get around that in in any
significant way is probably
quite a dangerous thing to do.
But so it it's beholden on the
senior leadership as I said to
create the conditions where this
can happen because we know we have
empirical proof now that it works
(15:58):
that you know we've just seen it
for the 15 month experiment the
ongoing experiment what you can do
is enable it in your in your teens
you can start it at at a lower
level in in smaller pockets and.
Um.
And and give people more autonomy and
and it's really invigorating to do it too.
(16:20):
It's a.
I mean, there there are two clear benefits.
I mean there there are many clear benefits,
but there are two very sort of sweet,
easily identifiable ones.
One is that if you give people
a bit more remit to make their
own decisions and responsibility.
You see whether they step up to
the mark and and and whether they
(16:41):
embrace it and if they do they will.
You know they're bringing additional
energy and and ideas into the
workplace and that and that at the
at the same time they're taking
work off the leaders shoulders.
So if if you had to sort of.
Peer over people's shoulders before to
(17:02):
check that they're doing it right now.
Now by giving them a bit more space,
they you know that that burden is removed,
which gives the lead up more time
to to do other other things,
and that there are plenty of other things
that leaders probably should be doing,
like like mentoring and and and.
And bringing people forward.
(17:23):
That are time consuming too.
So it it takes a very changed
type of mindset to do that.
You can do that.
In in your small group if,
if if you're you know.
Given the opportunity to but it it's
quite difficult to do it upwards as it were.
If you haven't been given that latitude then
(17:44):
it's probably dangerous to try and take it.
But you can have the conversations
with people and see how how they,
how they react to it.
These changes don't happen overnight.
Something else that I've been aware of
through the pandemic is that we have,
we're starting to have a much more
(18:05):
human centered. Approach to leadership.
We you know,
we can't turn a blind eye or we can't
look at our colleagues or our team.
And just see them for the role they fulfill.
We are more and more aware of the
conditions that they live in and what's
happening with them in their own lives.
(18:27):
You know,
to to to a greater or lesser extent,
but we know if if.
If it's challenging to work
from home we know if they're,
if they've been trying to manage home
schooling and or you know whatever
it is that's going on, we tend.
I think we have a bigger sense of who
the human beings that we're working,
(18:49):
I've been doing some work with.
Paul Brown professor Paul Brown is an
applied neuroscientist and he. Is that?
Absolutely clear that. The next.
The way we're going to improve.
(19:09):
Productivity at work that the success what
he calls the 21st century sustainable
organization is by taking in this
more holistic approach to people.
If you just look at people as a
expert in this single field and
that's what they do in this bit of
the of the organization then you're
(19:30):
you're missing out on on so much and
and you're you're you're failing
to leverage the potential there.
So we we've got to look at it look at it
much more holistically and and to your point.
Go back, yeah.
Families and and and and other
stresses and strains that people have.
I remember a conversation I had with
a a professor at the Spanish Business
(19:50):
School ESA in in Barcelona and he was
a an expert on expats working overseas
and he just done some research and.
It was.
It showed that the majority of people
who were sent on to overseas assignments.
(20:13):
Failed that the the the ones who
failed failed not because of the
individual or the work they had to do.
They failed because the family that
came with them hadn't integrated
properly into the overseas world.
And the reason they had they went
back to the home country is because
(20:33):
of the personal family reason and
and and and that's I think that that
that encapsulates it in a very clear
idea of how what goes on around us.
Totally impacts what we do at work
and it always stuck with me.
It's in the same way that,
you know, we look at.
Mergers and acquisitions
(20:55):
and in across across all,
all industries and sectors.
And the bankers and the consultants
come up with lovely spreadsheets that
show how how much money is going to
be saved and and where all the the,
the synchronicity is by merging
these two organizations.
So on paper it looks absolutely fine
and then you put the two cultures
(21:17):
together and there's a there's
no fit whatsoever.
So it's the people,
it's always the people that.
That, that,
that cools the the difficulty and so
we've got to be much more aware of.
What makes people work optimally?
OK.
Something I'm aware of as well is,
is some of the work that I've been
(21:39):
observing and some of the studies
that I've been doing myself.
I'm picking up a sense that.
We need to be. We do need to be quick.
So we need to, not necessarily.
Neil something down and say this
is our strategy for the next five
years and and blinkers on and that's
(22:00):
what we're going for but we need to.
Be able to decide on a path.
Look to try and develop ideas in
response to what's going on internally
and most importantly externally,
you know, in that bigger,
bigger global context. But that?
There, there, there seems to.
There needs to be something parallel going
(22:21):
on where we're constantly reiterating,
where we're trying new things,
introducing new ways,
but getting feedback on what's working for
people and what's not working for people.
So very different the this is,
this is the policy and procedure
and how it's done,
and this is what we're going to be using.
Are you picking up on that at all?
Yeah, I mean,
I think there's a sense certainly
(22:42):
that we frequently in organizations.
Have our eyes down too much and
are not scanning the horizon so we
we don't see the bigger picture
from that point of view and and
and in order to get the job done,
you know there needs to be a focus on
on the path immediately in front of you
as well as where the path is leading.
(23:03):
So it's a balance like all these things, the.
We might touch on the Scottish
Leadership Institute at some point,
a point today, which is another,
another passion of mine,
but I I started it with.
Jim may that the former Scottish
(23:25):
Government minister and he has,
he likes to use this metaphor of
the 19th Century railroad handcart,
the thing that you have two men on,
usually in sort of Harold Lloyd film,
black and white silent movies,
pumping furiously,
going up and down in order to move it along.
(23:45):
But, but his point being that in order
to get progress you you need to find you.
You need to have a bit of yin and
Yang that there needs to be something
on both sides and you're always
trying to achieve balance in between.
So if you're if you just push down on one
side it doesn't you you don't go anywhere.
So it it is trying to get this
balance between what needs to get
(24:07):
done now but also having your eyes
up and I and I think and scanning
the horizon and I think there's.
Probably less of a mindset of horizon
scanning than there should be,
and that's something I'm really
keen to to try and cultivate that,
the opportunity for that to happen.
I don't know if that answers
(24:27):
your question or not.
Well, it's a it's a great answer.
And it was a lovely introduction to
the Scottish Leadership Institute
because you know,
we've spoken initially about the
global work that you do where you're
getting a sense of of what's going on,
on a global scale, but then you're,
as you mentioned,
your co-founder of the Scottish
Leadership Institute.
What sort of?
(24:50):
I mean it comes from.
An awareness that having worked with
the leadership development sector mean
principally business schools globally
but also lots of consultants both
the the Big International premier
consultants like Boston Consulting
(25:10):
Group and and the you know the the
big accounting firms do but there's a
a mass of others out there a plethora
of small excellent little boutique.
Consultants doing leadership work as well
and it's very fragmented and if you're not?
(25:32):
Fully immersed in it.
It's very difficult to identify who
who the right people that to help
help you and and I think there's.
Also a large sector of.
Scottish business and and and
public sector to public sector
slightly better provided but the
(25:52):
Scottish business sector who?
Don't.
Focus enough on leadership because they've
got other priorities and and it's,
it's, it's too confusing that to
look at this fragmented world.
So the Scottish Leadership Institute is,
is in part that.
Just to raise the awareness of
the benefits of good leadership.
And there's plenty of research
(26:13):
to show that good leadership,
good good management of people
makes is the single most effective.
Factor in in in improving performance
in an organization.
So even if your organization is doing well,
by improving the leadership approach
and and and the management of people
(26:36):
within it you you can increase that.
So it's very difficult for lots
of organizations who may not.
But large enough to have their
own expertise around leadership
within them in the organization,
which is going to be most organizations,
only very large ones that can do that.
Then where where to look for that?
(26:58):
So the Scottish Leadership Institute is, is.
Going to be a place that they can come and.
Be supported in increasing the focus on
leadership within their organization
and it also provides a navigation and
a map for identifying appropriate.
Providers that to help develop people
(27:21):
and and it'll also be at its core a
sort of greater a pathway for people to.
Develop their own leadership career
so you can sort of map it through
through the Scottish Leadership
Institute and and engage in.
Events and and discussions with
(27:43):
other people who who also have
an interest in it and that will
support support their their journey.
So it it's still at an early stage
but we're keen for people to know
there's a Scottish leadership.
Dot Org website and people to get
get involved with that and and and
find out more and get in touch
(28:04):
with us if they if they want to
participate in this it's it's really
trying to build a movement I suppose
because that is where I should have
started and from an organizational
perspective so organizations can be
can engage with Scottish Leadership
Institute but also individuals.
So from what you're seeing you know I
could if I if I if I thought right well I
actually wanted to take responsibility.
(28:28):
Yeah, it's a membership.
Ownership will be individual.
And and and the advantage of that is
that if you change jobs or or or roles
within an organization you can continue.
Your association with it and and and
that that will carry forward through
your career because leadership is,
(28:50):
is, is often.
The the the only sort of structured
thinking we get around leadership often
it happens in in short programs of a
day a couple of days a week whatever
it may be and and then you don't touch
it again for for months on end or
years on it and and we want to make a
little bit more continuous than that
and and keep keep people thinking and
(29:12):
raising their awareness around but.
The principal way of trying to reach these
individuals will be through organizations.
So we're we're very keen for organizations
to be engaging with us and and
saying yes it would be great to have.
X many of our our leaders our managers
on this journey together and and and
(29:34):
support that and again this goes
back to you know the conversation
we had earlier which is you know
if if it's supported from the top
within an organization then it has
a great deal more impact so.
Where where?
We're wanting to speak to both organizations,
but absolutely individuals as well.
(29:54):
OK, that's really interesting and
and lovely to hear that it's a,
it's a,
it's a Scottish leadership
institute because I think.
I think one of the things that I've
picked up sort of very clearly from
executive working with executive
education provision that these big
business schools around the world is.
(30:15):
The be people tend to buy into
these expensive programs on on the
basis of the brand of the the the
university or the Business School,
the opportunity to have a famous faculty
member standing in front of them and.
Perhaps going on can on onto
one of these campuses,
you know you go to Oxford or something
(30:35):
and and you get this certificate
and all of which is extremely nice
but none of it in fact changes.
You're learning.
What changes you're learning is the
is the the fact that they've convened
a group of like minded people and
created a space where you can have
these structured thinking and discussion.
And so that's the bit that we're trying
trying to foster but the other part
(30:57):
that the business schools do very well is.
Customized programs and programs just
for single companies is make it relevant
for the participants and that may be
around their particular strategy or whatever,
but I think that there's a Scottish
relevancy there too and that,
you know, we've got a rich,
rich history of.
Philosophy around leadership in
(31:17):
Scotland and practice and and and
particularly around community and I
think there are all sorts of threads
that we can we can draw out about that,
that will resonate with people
in Scotland and I and I'm really,
really excited to to have
the opportunity to do that.
I'm. I'm excited to see,
to see what comes of that.
(31:37):
Roddy. We're very close to time.
I'm going to ask if.
So if I'm a leader and I'm thinking
about what's required for the future
if if there were three things.
What do I need to be really focusing on?
Well, the. The first big event we've
(31:59):
run at Scottish Leadership Institute
was with this extraordinary chap
called Bob Chapman, who was a.
We inherited a as a manufacturing
business in the Midwest US when he
was quite young, in his late 20s.
His father died quite suddenly and he by
(32:20):
this stage had become a trained accountant.
He'd been to Business School and got an MBA,
and he was very much of the.
Slash and burn sort of approach of cost
cutting and and managing organizations
on us by spreadsheet and he tried and
the company was not in good Nick.
Any inherited it and he tried it for
(32:40):
four or five years. That approach.
It clearly wasn't working and he
came over to us just weeks before
the the lockdown started and and.
And gave this amazing presentation
that explained how he developed his
what he calls truly human leadership
(33:00):
style which is a people centric
human centric approach where you
see everybody that you work with as
individuals with families and and and
his slightly folksy Midwest phrase is
somebody somebody's precious child.
And so it's understanding.
(33:21):
And yeah,
that comes across as a bit
schmaltzy perhaps for us,
but the effect of it is
utterly extraordinary.
And he has run this business on
this basis for the last 25 years
and he's had a stellar performance,
so I think.
Point number one is look,
look at everybody as a you know as
(33:42):
a as a fully fledged human being who
who has something to give and sit and
and develop a people centric style.
I think the second point is.
Be aware of your influence as a leader,
and I think lots of us.
Just go to go to work and and possibly
(34:05):
and everyone's different but you
know possibly failed to appreciate
what impact they have in their role
on others and so taking a moment.
Not all the time, but you know,
once, once a fortnight anyway,
just the the thing, you know how, how?
(34:26):
What I do is that impacting on the
people I I do it with and for and
around and seeing that and if it the
the more scene you are senior you are,
the greater you need to reflect on that.
And the third part I know is,
is probably just enjoy it.
I think there's, there's,
there's a great deal to be done from
(34:49):
enjoying what you do in the present.
We spend a great deal of time.
Being stressed and there's a great piece
of work by someone from the Center for
Creative leadership around the fact that
most stresses it comes from rumination.
It's because we ponder on the things
(35:10):
that stresses that too much and and and
happiness and and being in the flow.
You know that moment when everything
is just going well and time zips past.
It's because you're absolutely
in the present.
It's the reason we love going to well maybe
I shouldn't be saying this in Scotland.
That that that that the Members
would have going to football matches
or we love going to the theater.
You can't do either but it's because
(35:32):
you're completely tied up in the present
and that that's where enjoyment flows.
So see if you can create moments in
your day when you're you know you're
you're in the present and energy
flows from that I'm you know and
and that that's contagious I think.
Alrighty, that's lovely.
What an inspirational way to finish,
(35:53):
because we don't often talk about
bringing the joy or looking for the joy.
And so I'm I'm grateful that you
added that it's part of this,
this awareness of of work has
just been an integral,
woven part of our lives.
And if we're not in it,
we spend more time at work than
we do anywhere else.
So we should try and enjoy
it as much as we can.
(36:13):
It's it shouldn't just be to put
put some money in the bank account
at the end of the end of the month.
Well I have heard someone say that
you know we spend a lot of time
where we you're we're quite cautious
about how we spend our money.
We think about it,
you know it's our money,
it's our resource,
we think about how we spend it.
So and in terms of in terms of spending
our time and spending our time at work.
(36:35):
If we could think about how we can
bring our best selves and make
our best contribution and come
from that sort of place.
Sounds like a good place to be.
OK, buddy,
thank you so much for sharing your
wisdom and your insights with us today.
Thanks very much.
It's a great conversation.
I really enjoyed.
OK,
thank you.
(36:58):
About.
Hello and welcome to the latest
episode of Leadership Matters.
My name is Valerie Jackman and
I'm leadership leader at CDN.
The purpose of this miniseries is to explore
leadership from different perspectives.
What can we learn from the past?
What's required for the future,
and where can we draw inspiration from?
Today I'm delighted to be
(00:28):
joined by Roddy Miller,
Rudy's founder and CEO of Ideas for leaders.
Which works with research faculty
and thought leaders from the
top global business schools and
consultancies across the world.
But he's also co-founder of the
Scottish Leadership Institute,
an organization focused on increasing
(00:49):
awareness and impact of good leadership
practice on organizations performance.
Welcome Rudy. Thank you, Valerie.
Great to be here.
Roddy,
tell us a bit about this work that
you do then with ideas for leaders.
Well, I mean it comes from an increasing
passion that I have around leadership
(01:10):
and behavior of people in organization.
I suppose it dials back to my work
in the 1990s with a a publishers
in London and I found myself editor
of a large term on executive
education that needed to have some
articles put around it to make it
(01:32):
a little bit more exciting and.
Um,
that put me in touch with working
with these big global business
schools all around the world.
And in fact I took over that business
or that publication in the early
2000s and we set it up independently
and and took it online and.
(01:53):
Since then I I've been working with lots of.
Leading faculty at at business
schools around the world,
the likes of Wharton and Chicago
and Kellogg and the States and
London Business School, Oxford said.
And and others here in Europe and.
Increasingly drawn to the work that
(02:13):
they do and the research that they've
been uncovering and investigating on,
on the leadership side on on how
people work together in organizations.
And so that's where ideas for
leaders grew out of it.
It summarizes academic papers
and academic papers and journals
(02:34):
can be pretty turgid.
Not even academics really like reading them,
but.
The fact that there's a there's a statistic
somewhere that says on average six people
read an Business School academic papers,
which is a fairly appalling statistic.
But they do contain,
many of them do contain some really
(02:54):
interesting and applicable information.
And that's what we try and capture,
those ones which have a real
relevance to society and business.
And there are plenty that don't,
but that we try and capture the
ones that do and summarize them
down and make them easy to access.
And digest for people outside academia.
And as I say,
(03:16):
quite a lot of people inside academia too.
Right.
Oh, that's wonderful.
So tell me how then if I wanted to
access those, how do I access them?
So they're all largely free to
access on ideas for leaders.com.
So just go to ideasforleaders.com and hope,
hopefully the the website should
(03:36):
spring open in front of you.
And it's it's supposed to be reasonably
intuitive to find your way around that,
there's a good search function and
you can type in whatever topics.
That that seem relevant and and
we've now got very nearly 1000 of
these short summaries available.
So there should be something if it's
(03:57):
work related that that that pops up.
So for me, I'm getting a sense that you're.
Connecting with people who are doing
research who are starting to be able
to sense into or be aware of what.
Is going to be required of our
leaders for the 21st century,
(04:17):
our future leaders.
What are the kind of trends and things
that you're picking up from there?
I think.
I think I'm in in in a really privileged
position because I get to speak to
all sorts of thinkers and and as I
say academics and researchers who
who are exploring these ideas and
(04:39):
as editor of of ideas for leaders
and also the the magazine developing
leaders that we published to.
You know I get exposed to lots
of different perspectives around
this but what is really clear is.
That.
We are moving away dramatically
(04:59):
from command and control,
which was the 19th and 20th centuries.
Where a staggering period for humanity,
particularly in the Western world,
in the increase in efficiency that.
We we created,
and the progress and the increase
in wealth that has come with that
(05:19):
is is truly staggering if you
look at it compared to,
you know,
the changes over centuries before
where you know people 567 generations
previous to anyone would be living at
a fairly similar existence to them.
But you know,
you only need to look one generation back,
let alone two or three,
and see how how our lives have transformed
(05:40):
in terms of air travel or digital Internet,
whatever it may be.
Umm.
SO1920 centuries were were extraordinary,
but and one of the things that
drove them forward was, you know,
the creation of these large organizations
which have now become extraordinarily large
(06:01):
organizations with income and power much,
much greater than.
Many small countries. But.
With size comes huge complexity and
the way that we tackle complexity
in these organizations is putting
in lots of process and lots of
(06:21):
layers and layers and process.
Effectively dehumanize our our roles in
organizations and people lose their sense of.
Purpose in them and if you don't have
a sense of purpose then you you you
slightly lose your energy around this.
So the 21st century is going to is very
(06:41):
different and the demands on on 21st century.
Organizations are to be much more creative,
much more innovative.
I was speaking to Martin Reeves,
who's the chairman of the Boston
Consulting Group's Henderson Institute,
their internal think tank,
BCG being the the Big Strategic Global
(07:02):
Strategic company earlier this week.
In fact,
I've got a very good podcast with them,
so I'll put a plug in for that.
But he,
he was saying that you know what he
calls the fade rate of organizations,
which is how how quickly they
peak and and then then disappear.
Again,
is just increasing all the time
and 2020 years ago if you were
(07:24):
in the top 10% of organizations,
if if your organization is one of
the top top 10% of organizations,
there was a fair chance there was
a 70% chance that in 20 years
time or 10101020 years time,
you'd still still be in that position,
whereas that's now.
Gone down to below 20%.
So big organizations are disappearing
(07:46):
quickly that your your time at
the top is very limited and.
The reason is because innovation is
coming thick and fast and and and and
change is is increasing rapidly and
and So what do organizations need?
Organizations need people who can
adapt and be innovative and creative
(08:08):
and and that doesn't tend to happen
in the heavily structured matrix
organizations and of of the last century.
So there's a big shift there and and.
So that's what that's what we're seeing.
Sort of taking place now that that that
that's the change that's required and
and it's a big mental shift as well
(08:29):
as being a an organizational shift.
So it fascinates me around you
know how that's being implemented.
I was speaking to HR practitioner
this morning actually who was talking
about the the changes and that even
from a recruitment perspective there
are things that we will need to factor
(08:50):
in that we haven't factored in before
because of how quickly things change
and the skills that people will need
and the competencies that people will
need to be able to work going forward.
Even being able to work from home,
being able to work remotely,
being able to to iterate and
reiterate quite quickly so.
And that kind of kind of aligns
(09:10):
with what you're what you're seeing
there absolutely and and and yeah we
see on these surveys of what what
capacities and skills are being
required of organizations now we're
seeing far more around critical
thinking and and agility and and the
and being resilient and self starter
(09:30):
the ship and and things like that.
And then the really interesting
thing is that you know we've just
been through this most.
Extraordinary period of that.
We haven't quite got that got out of it,
but hopefully we're about
to start coming out of it.
Extraordinary period over the last
15 months with the pandemic and.
(09:51):
Before 15 months ago.
Organizations thought the idea of
having people working out of out
of their line of sight was a crazy
idea and couldn't be done.
And there was this lack of trust,
lack of faith in people at all levels and.
(10:15):
Then it was forced upon us,
and and lo and behold.
The productivity rate in in in many
respects in many areas of those
people you know not everyone can
work from home and and and clearly
there are there there are jobs and
careers that they have to happen in
a place of work but we've seen that
those people who can work from home.
(10:37):
Stepped up to not I stepped up to
the mark but but really blossomed
in this and and and found that
freedom that autonomy that agency to
manage their day manage their lives.
Was quite energizing and and and
increased their ability or their
levels of productivity.
So the fact that you may want to go and.
Put some the clothes in in the washing
(10:58):
machine or go and collect the child
from school or something like that.
Mundane which has to be done in any case,
but you can fit it into your working day.
That, you know,
between telephone calls and it's good to
stand up from your desk and walk about.
So you might as well go and do that.
Yeah.
You know,
that actually becomes something
(11:20):
pretty positive.
And so there's this realization that that
people are working because they want to work,
not because you just get paid
at the end of the month.
It's a spectrum.
And clearly there are going to be instances
that that that doesn't happen on,
but the vast majority of people
want to do a good job.
(11:43):
Again,
I had a conversation with
somebody in the college
sector recently about trust
and about trusting people,
trusting colleagues.
And there has been such a
shift in in the Fe sector.
So people are working from home,
they're teaching from home.
And and exactly what what you said
(12:03):
there I've seen happen in that people.
Might need to walk the dog or nip up
to take TK Maxx to return something,
or you know, go to being queue to
pick up a tin of paint or whatever,
but they'll fit that into their their day.
Not at the cost of the
work that they're doing,
(12:23):
but they'll work it around it
so that they can actually show
up better when they need to and
and focus and better when they,
when they need to and when they can.
And I think there's another,
there's another layer thin layer to
that too which is and and and you know
this because I think you do walking
meditation and stuff for people.
I think you mentioned that
(12:45):
to me before but you know.
You probably don't get much time to
do that at work because there's an
element of being appraised watched
of what you're doing in the office.
But if you go off and walk the
dog when you've just had a quite a
heavy conversation about something,
something work related,
that gives you the time to percolate
(13:07):
those thoughts and distill them and
and and come up with some fresh ideas.
So it may may be quite generative.
Again, you know,
it's not going to be always the case.
It's not, it's not a rule,
but that I think it creates this
my my definition of leadership of
people who create the conditions for
(13:28):
for others to do their best work.
And,
and I think we've created slightly
inadvertently this condition where
others can do really good work.
From home.
And it's by giving them that that
sense of autonomy and that sense of
agency and and sense of responsibility.
Yeah, yeah.
And trust,
(13:48):
that idea of trust really sits
at the heart of it as well.
I have a question for you,
just in all the people that
you've spoken to and all the
the research you've done,
I think most people will get it that they're,
you know, that we're, we're,
we're in a time of change.
Not we're moving into a time of change,
but we're in a time of Iraq change
(14:10):
where we do need to be adaptable and
flexible and lean and agile and all these
things and we need to be comfortable.
But in many organizations,
there are cultures that
are very different to that.
So in your own research,
is there anything and the different
interviews that you've had?
(14:31):
So if I'm a leader in an organization
that has been quite hierarchical,
top down command and control,
quite bureaucratic,
how am I going to even start to think
about supporting the workforce?
So that we can make the shift
to a different
(14:52):
kind of culture.
That that's a brilliant question.
And it is. It is it by and large,
the big question.
It alternately has to be sanctioned
and approved from the top it.
It's very difficult to
try and have this more.
Fluid sort of devolved leadership.
(15:15):
If it's not,
if it's not flowing from the top, so.
You you you're going to struggle.
Otherwise,
if if your senior leaders think everyone
needs to show up in Serried ranks
and and and carry out the instructions,
then try trying to.
(15:35):
Get around that in in any
significant way is probably
quite a dangerous thing to do.
But so it it's beholden on the
senior leadership as I said to
create the conditions where this
can happen because we know we have
empirical proof now that it works
(15:58):
that you know we've just seen it
for the 15 month experiment the
ongoing experiment what you can do
is enable it in your in your teens
you can start it at at a lower
level in in smaller pockets and.
Um.
And and give people more autonomy and
and it's really invigorating to do it too.
(16:20):
It's a.
I mean, there there are two clear benefits.
I mean there there are many clear benefits,
but there are two very sort of sweet,
easily identifiable ones.
One is that if you give people
a bit more remit to make their
own decisions and responsibility.
You see whether they step up to
the mark and and and whether they
(16:41):
embrace it and if they do they will.
You know they're bringing additional
energy and and ideas into the
workplace and that and that at the
at the same time they're taking
work off the leaders shoulders.
So if if you had to sort of.
Peer over people's shoulders before to
(17:02):
check that they're doing it right now.
Now by giving them a bit more space,
they you know that that burden is removed,
which gives the lead up more time
to to do other other things,
and that there are plenty of other things
that leaders probably should be doing,
like like mentoring and and and.
And bringing people forward.
(17:23):
That are time consuming too.
So it it takes a very changed
type of mindset to do that.
You can do that.
In in your small group if,
if if you're you know.
Given the opportunity to but it it's
quite difficult to do it upwards as it were.
If you haven't been given that latitude then
(17:44):
it's probably dangerous to try and take it.
But you can have the conversations
with people and see how how they,
how they react to it.
These changes don't happen overnight.
Something else that I've been aware of
through the pandemic is that we have,
we're starting to have a much more
(18:05):
human centered. Approach to leadership.
We you know,
we can't turn a blind eye or we can't
look at our colleagues or our team.
And just see them for the role they fulfill.
We are more and more aware of the
conditions that they live in and what's
happening with them in their own lives.
(18:27):
You know,
to to to a greater or lesser extent,
but we know if if.
If it's challenging to work
from home we know if they're,
if they've been trying to manage home
schooling and or you know whatever
it is that's going on, we tend.
I think we have a bigger sense of who
the human beings that we're working,
(18:49):
I've been doing some work with.
Paul Brown professor Paul Brown is an
applied neuroscientist and he. Is that?
Absolutely clear that. The next.
The way we're going to improve.
(19:09):
Productivity at work that the success what
he calls the 21st century sustainable
organization is by taking in this
more holistic approach to people.
If you just look at people as a
expert in this single field and
that's what they do in this bit of
the of the organization then you're
(19:30):
you're missing out on on so much and
and you're you're you're failing
to leverage the potential there.
So we we've got to look at it look at it
much more holistically and and to your point.
Go back, yeah.
Families and and and and other
stresses and strains that people have.
I remember a conversation I had with
a a professor at the Spanish Business
(19:50):
School ESA in in Barcelona and he was
a an expert on expats working overseas
and he just done some research and.
It was.
It showed that the majority of people
who were sent on to overseas assignments.
(20:13):
Failed that the the the ones who
failed failed not because of the
individual or the work they had to do.
They failed because the family that
came with them hadn't integrated
properly into the overseas world.
And the reason they had they went
back to the home country is because
(20:33):
of the personal family reason and
and and and that's I think that that
that encapsulates it in a very clear
idea of how what goes on around us.
Totally impacts what we do at work
and it always stuck with me.
It's in the same way that,
you know, we look at.
Mergers and acquisitions
(20:55):
and in across across all,
all industries and sectors.
And the bankers and the consultants
come up with lovely spreadsheets that
show how how much money is going to
be saved and and where all the the,
the synchronicity is by merging
these two organizations.
So on paper it looks absolutely fine
and then you put the two cultures
(21:17):
together and there's a there's
no fit whatsoever.
So it's the people,
it's always the people that.
That, that,
that cools the the difficulty and so
we've got to be much more aware of.
What makes people work optimally?
OK.
Something I'm aware of as well is,
is some of the work that I've been
(21:39):
observing and some of the studies
that I've been doing myself.
I'm picking up a sense that.
We need to be. We do need to be quick.
So we need to, not necessarily.
Neil something down and say this
is our strategy for the next five
years and and blinkers on and that's
(22:00):
what we're going for but we need to.
Be able to decide on a path.
Look to try and develop ideas in
response to what's going on internally
and most importantly externally,
you know, in that bigger,
bigger global context. But that?
There, there, there seems to.
There needs to be something parallel going
(22:21):
on where we're constantly reiterating,
where we're trying new things,
introducing new ways,
but getting feedback on what's working for
people and what's not working for people.
So very different the this is,
this is the policy and procedure
and how it's done,
and this is what we're going to be using.
Are you picking up on that at all?
Yeah, I mean,
I think there's a sense certainly
(22:42):
that we frequently in organizations.
Have our eyes down too much and
are not scanning the horizon so we
we don't see the bigger picture
from that point of view and and
and in order to get the job done,
you know there needs to be a focus on
on the path immediately in front of you
as well as where the path is leading.
(23:03):
So it's a balance like all these things, the.
We might touch on the Scottish
Leadership Institute at some point,
a point today, which is another,
another passion of mine,
but I I started it with.
Jim may that the former Scottish
(23:25):
Government minister and he has,
he likes to use this metaphor of
the 19th Century railroad handcart,
the thing that you have two men on,
usually in sort of Harold Lloyd film,
black and white silent movies,
pumping furiously,
going up and down in order to move it along.
(23:45):
But, but his point being that in order
to get progress you you need to find you.
You need to have a bit of yin and
Yang that there needs to be something
on both sides and you're always
trying to achieve balance in between.
So if you're if you just push down on one
side it doesn't you you don't go anywhere.
So it it is trying to get this
balance between what needs to get
(24:07):
done now but also having your eyes
up and I and I think and scanning
the horizon and I think there's.
Probably less of a mindset of horizon
scanning than there should be,
and that's something I'm really
keen to to try and cultivate that,
the opportunity for that to happen.
I don't know if that answers
(24:27):
your question or not.
Well, it's a it's a great answer.
And it was a lovely introduction to
the Scottish Leadership Institute
because you know,
we've spoken initially about the
global work that you do where you're
getting a sense of of what's going on,
on a global scale, but then you're,
as you mentioned,
your co-founder of the Scottish
Leadership Institute.
What sort of?
(24:50):
I mean it comes from.
An awareness that having worked with
the leadership development sector mean
principally business schools globally
but also lots of consultants both
the the Big International premier
consultants like Boston Consulting
(25:10):
Group and and the you know the the
big accounting firms do but there's a
a mass of others out there a plethora
of small excellent little boutique.
Consultants doing leadership work as well
and it's very fragmented and if you're not?
(25:32):
Fully immersed in it.
It's very difficult to identify who
who the right people that to help
help you and and I think there's.
Also a large sector of.
Scottish business and and and
public sector to public sector
slightly better provided but the
(25:52):
Scottish business sector who?
Don't.
Focus enough on leadership because they've
got other priorities and and it's,
it's, it's too confusing that to
look at this fragmented world.
So the Scottish Leadership Institute is,
is in part that.
Just to raise the awareness of
the benefits of good leadership.
And there's plenty of research
(26:13):
to show that good leadership,
good good management of people
makes is the single most effective.
Factor in in in improving performance
in an organization.
So even if your organization is doing well,
by improving the leadership approach
and and and the management of people
(26:36):
within it you you can increase that.
So it's very difficult for lots
of organizations who may not.
But large enough to have their
own expertise around leadership
within them in the organization,
which is going to be most organizations,
only very large ones that can do that.
Then where where to look for that?
(26:58):
So the Scottish Leadership Institute is, is.
Going to be a place that they can come and.
Be supported in increasing the focus on
leadership within their organization
and it also provides a navigation and
a map for identifying appropriate.
Providers that to help develop people
(27:21):
and and it'll also be at its core a
sort of greater a pathway for people to.
Develop their own leadership career
so you can sort of map it through
through the Scottish Leadership
Institute and and engage in.
Events and and discussions with
(27:43):
other people who who also have
an interest in it and that will
support support their their journey.
So it it's still at an early stage
but we're keen for people to know
there's a Scottish leadership.
Dot Org website and people to get
get involved with that and and and
find out more and get in touch
(28:04):
with us if they if they want to
participate in this it's it's really
trying to build a movement I suppose
because that is where I should have
started and from an organizational
perspective so organizations can be
can engage with Scottish Leadership
Institute but also individuals.
So from what you're seeing you know I
could if I if I if I thought right well I
actually wanted to take responsibility.
(28:28):
Yeah, it's a membership.
Ownership will be individual.
And and and the advantage of that is
that if you change jobs or or or roles
within an organization you can continue.
Your association with it and and and
that that will carry forward through
your career because leadership is,
(28:50):
is, is often.
The the the only sort of structured
thinking we get around leadership often
it happens in in short programs of a
day a couple of days a week whatever
it may be and and then you don't touch
it again for for months on end or
years on it and and we want to make a
little bit more continuous than that
and and keep keep people thinking and
(29:12):
raising their awareness around but.
The principal way of trying to reach these
individuals will be through organizations.
So we're we're very keen for organizations
to be engaging with us and and
saying yes it would be great to have.
X many of our our leaders our managers
on this journey together and and and
(29:34):
support that and again this goes
back to you know the conversation
we had earlier which is you know
if if it's supported from the top
within an organization then it has
a great deal more impact so.
Where where?
We're wanting to speak to both organizations,
but absolutely individuals as well.
(29:54):
OK, that's really interesting and
and lovely to hear that it's a,
it's a,
it's a Scottish leadership
institute because I think.
I think one of the things that I've
picked up sort of very clearly from
executive working with executive
education provision that these big
business schools around the world is.
(30:15):
The be people tend to buy into
these expensive programs on on the
basis of the brand of the the the
university or the Business School,
the opportunity to have a famous faculty
member standing in front of them and.
Perhaps going on can on onto
one of these campuses,
you know you go to Oxford or something
(30:35):
and and you get this certificate
and all of which is extremely nice
but none of it in fact changes.
You're learning.
What changes you're learning is the
is the the fact that they've convened
a group of like minded people and
created a space where you can have
these structured thinking and discussion.
And so that's the bit that we're trying
trying to foster but the other part
(30:57):
that the business schools do very well is.
Customized programs and programs just
for single companies is make it relevant
for the participants and that may be
around their particular strategy or whatever,
but I think that there's a Scottish
relevancy there too and that,
you know, we've got a rich,
rich history of.
Philosophy around leadership in
(31:17):
Scotland and practice and and and
particularly around community and I
think there are all sorts of threads
that we can we can draw out about that,
that will resonate with people
in Scotland and I and I'm really,
really excited to to have
the opportunity to do that.
I'm. I'm excited to see,
to see what comes of that.
(31:37):
Roddy. We're very close to time.
I'm going to ask if.
So if I'm a leader and I'm thinking
about what's required for the future
if if there were three things.
What do I need to be really focusing on?
Well, the. The first big event we've
(31:59):
run at Scottish Leadership Institute
was with this extraordinary chap
called Bob Chapman, who was a.
We inherited a as a manufacturing
business in the Midwest US when he
was quite young, in his late 20s.
His father died quite suddenly and he by
(32:20):
this stage had become a trained accountant.
He'd been to Business School and got an MBA,
and he was very much of the.
Slash and burn sort of approach of cost
cutting and and managing organizations
on us by spreadsheet and he tried and
the company was not in good Nick.
Any inherited it and he tried it for
(32:40):
four or five years. That approach.
It clearly wasn't working and he
came over to us just weeks before
the the lockdown started and and.
And gave this amazing presentation
that explained how he developed his
what he calls truly human leadership
(33:00):
style which is a people centric
human centric approach where you
see everybody that you work with as
individuals with families and and and
his slightly folksy Midwest phrase is
somebody somebody's precious child.
And so it's understanding.
(33:21):
And yeah,
that comes across as a bit
schmaltzy perhaps for us,
but the effect of it is
utterly extraordinary.
And he has run this business on
this basis for the last 25 years
and he's had a stellar performance,
so I think.
Point number one is look,
look at everybody as a you know as
(33:42):
a as a fully fledged human being who
who has something to give and sit and
and develop a people centric style.
I think the second point is.
Be aware of your influence as a leader,
and I think lots of us.
Just go to go to work and and possibly
(34:05):
and everyone's different but you
know possibly failed to appreciate
what impact they have in their role
on others and so taking a moment.
Not all the time, but you know,
once, once a fortnight anyway,
just the the thing, you know how, how?
(34:26):
What I do is that impacting on the
people I I do it with and for and
around and seeing that and if it the
the more scene you are senior you are,
the greater you need to reflect on that.
And the third part I know is,
is probably just enjoy it.
I think there's, there's,
there's a great deal to be done from
(34:49):
enjoying what you do in the present.
We spend a great deal of time.
Being stressed and there's a great piece
of work by someone from the Center for
Creative leadership around the fact that
most stresses it comes from rumination.
It's because we ponder on the things
(35:10):
that stresses that too much and and and
happiness and and being in the flow.
You know that moment when everything
is just going well and time zips past.
It's because you're absolutely
in the present.
It's the reason we love going to well maybe
I shouldn't be saying this in Scotland.
That that that that the Members
would have going to football matches
or we love going to the theater.
You can't do either but it's because
(35:32):
you're completely tied up in the present
and that that's where enjoyment flows.
So see if you can create moments in
your day when you're you know you're
you're in the present and energy
flows from that I'm you know and
and that that's contagious I think.
Alrighty, that's lovely.
What an inspirational way to finish,
(35:53):
because we don't often talk about
bringing the joy or looking for the joy.
And so I'm I'm grateful that you
added that it's part of this,
this awareness of of work has
just been an integral,
woven part of our lives.
And if we're not in it,
we spend more time at work than
we do anywhere else.
So we should try and enjoy
it as much as we can.
(36:13):
It's it shouldn't just be to put
put some money in the bank account
at the end of the end of the month.
Well I have heard someone say that
you know we spend a lot of time
where we you're we're quite cautious
about how we spend our money.
We think about it,
you know it's our money,
it's our resource,
we think about how we spend it.
So and in terms of in terms of spending
our time and spending our time at work.
(36:35):
If we could think about how we can
bring our best selves and make
our best contribution and come
from that sort of place.
Sounds like a good place to be.
OK, buddy,
thank you so much for sharing your
wisdom and your insights with us today.
Thanks very much.
It's a great conversation.
I really enjoyed.
OK,
thank you.
(36:58):
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