September 22, 2021 • 30 mins
In this episode, we talk to Walter Patterson, Lead Researcher about the recently published Digital Capability: A Scottish Landscape Review report, which examines how colleges prioritised digital skills over the lockdown period. Walter shares with us the approaches taken to gather the research, key findings and an overview of the outputs.
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(00:07):
Hello and welcome to the first episode
of the Pedagogy Mothers Podcast for
the 2021-2022 academic session.
The purpose of this podcast is to
bring the force from key topics of
conversation in relation to learning
and teaching to discuss and breakdown
aspects of practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to
integrate these into daily practice.
Today, I'm delighted to be joined
(00:28):
by Walter Patterson,
but we'll be discussing the
research on the table by the CDN
research and Enhancement Center,
which focuses on the digital
capabilities of the workforce.
Walter, good morning. How are you?
Yes, good morning, Tony.
I'm well, thanks,
and I'm looking forward to this opportunity.
To go over some of the work that
I've been doing along with CDN and
(00:50):
with other researchers in your group.
To provide guidance and support for
colleges as we go forward into whatever
the next normal is going to be.
No, that's fantastic.
What I love that term.
The next normal, you know the term,
the new normal or whatever is
used throughout the pandemic.
But the next normal to me really
(01:11):
frames as well.
It's still going to change.
It's just what is the next one?
What is the next number?
I think there's no better way than
kicking off the podcast series for this
session then by looking this research.
And I think for context for listeners
that may not have come across it,
this was something I was
turned around quite quickly.
So from conversations with
in April of this year,
(01:31):
we start the research in
May and concluded in August.
So I think if you don't mind,
Walter,
if you don't mind sharing what was
the research about kind of how
did you gather the information,
can you tell us a little bit kind of
where to start from your perspective?
That's OK.
The basic premise was that during
the pandemic we had been faced
with demands on student history,
(01:54):
on lecturer digital capabilities
that weren't fully anticipated
in the frameworks that.
Colleges have been using to inform their
own digital strategies before the pandemic.
So the first starting point for us was
to actually look at those frameworks,
(02:14):
they just digital capability
framework that was very well known
by all of the colleges and also the
education and Training Foundation,
the IETF framework which is very
popular with colleges in the South.
And along with that,
we recognise that there had been
(02:35):
a publication of the Scotland's
colleges digital ambition,
which is a very full statement of
the ambitions of these colleges to
not only have digital infused in all
of their teaching and learning practice,
but also to have it infused into
most of what they were doing in
(02:56):
in terms of student support and
what their professional staff.
We're engaged in.
So it really was a kind of whole
college approach to digital.
So we examined the strategies
of these colleges and Johnny and
that that work was quite revealing
because it showed
(03:16):
that the strategies were quite different
in their form and their format.
They were quite different in the way
that they addressed the digital ambition
of the college and at a local level.
So these were the kind of basic documents
that we had to to start off and they
(03:37):
formed the background of the A set of
topic questions that we were going to
use when engaging with the colleges,
but also interesting and.
And yeah, I think we all agree that you
know from the start of pandemic in March
2022 when we undertook this research
which was really kind of May 2021,
even on that was what say 15 months,
(03:57):
14 months, there was,
there was a huge shift in progress
over that time.
And now you can identify this throughout
the research around the digital strategies.
Um, but also by talking to people,
you know, I think it was a lot of
conversations with people in college
just to really understand what was
happening on the ground, so to speak.
It was gonna be.
So what else did you kind of find from,
from that element there,
(04:19):
from those discussions while they.
Yes, well,
CDN facilitated these interviews
with the colleges,
and most colleges did respond.
And it was quite interesting Johnny,
to be talking with senior staff in the
colleges who had responsibility for
digital in relation to learning and teaching.
(04:42):
So I I talked to vice principals
of learning and teaching,
I talked to faculty heads in
some cases and others.
I I was looking at the the senior manager
for Learning technology and the college.
So I it was quite good to
get that range of views.
Both from people who are more
(05:04):
immersed in the technical aspects
of it and and those who were
responsible for an oversight of.
Effective teaching and learning
as we went through the pandemic.
So I mentioned a moment ago
that we provided a topic list.
(05:25):
Not not to constrain the conversation,
but really just to give us some headline.
And points to address and
in in that conversation.
So I called it a semi structured
interview because I I just,
I allowed the individual interviewees
to to take up whatever topics
(05:47):
they felt were most important
for them in in the conversation.
But during those interviews
I took notes myself.
But we did record those interviews
and the transcripts then became
another important source of
confirmation of what the key points.
(06:08):
Where as we move to the analysis phase.
But,
but that that first stage of them
talking to people and and listening
to the stories was actually,
it was fascinating and it it,
it was, it was the really the
most enjoyable part of it.
Just to hear what was coming through
from the college is about, you know,
(06:30):
how scary it all was for them,
but how proud they were of
what they had been able to do,
you know,
in that short burst of activity and in
April and May of 2020. No, that's great.
And being part of a college myself at
that point in time from March 2020,
November 2020, yeah,
I fully recognize first hand,
(06:52):
you know, the flip overnight to well
how do we deliver now to ex motor
students with Xbox stuff you know,
and another college that I worked in it,
it's the same story.
I thought Scott colleges overnight
and it was continual training,
continual development of both
knowledge and awareness and all that,
which is fantastic.
I know when we spoke earlier
on in terms of the research,
(07:13):
we were keen to really focus on the
outputs around the wider workforce.
So from the the interviews and
the focus groups that you had,
what were the key outputs
that were derived from the,
from the research or from the
findings domain shows what?
Yes, well.
One of the things I was looking for
(07:34):
joining was a sense of what had
become the they they really key
necessary skills that lecturer should
have in order to manage groups that
were online and remote from them.
For,
for as you know from for some lecturers
that wasn't a new thing because
(07:55):
they've been doing it for quite some time,
particularly in the UHI colleges.
But for many this was completely
new ground so that that first
phase gave us a sense of.
What lectures required and
for them to be comfortable and
effective in their delivery?
(08:17):
But when when we do that back
to the focus groups to say here,
here are the here's the the competencies
that we think are the absolutely
essential ones for ensuring that
there's effective learning and teaching.
The question came up,
but what about support staff?
What about professional staff?
(08:38):
That question was asked of us.
It was asked several times.
And so I think we felt at that point
that it was absolutely necessary
that to produce a complete support
and advice for the colleges
we really had to address.
This question about all staff
(09:00):
digital capability, Yep.
No, no, I think that's great.
And obviously the third output
was was the key terms as well.
And I know from other conversations,
did this stem from maybe some of
the digital strategies as well in
terms of terms or it did, yes.
We were conscious of that before
we began the work.
(09:20):
You know,
having examined the digital strategies,
we could see that there were certain terms.
Iflex hybrid blended, for example,
that were being used in it
seemed interchangeably at times,
and in other places that looked as
though they were giving a different
(09:41):
meaning to it than we had found anothers.
But in the interviews themselves,
those terms surfaced again.
No people were using those terms.
And so I think it became clear
that it would be helpful to the
sector to just set out in in some
detail and with some examples too
(10:02):
for them to to look at.
And along with that.
I think it was your particular idea to.
Look at could we produce an icon or
some representation of that skill?
That would appeal to, you know,
(10:24):
make it immediately obvious.
So for example, if we look at the cyber
resilience image that you produced.
It it clearly shows that there's something
that helps you if if you fall into the water,
there's going to be a life belt for
you that gets you back out again.
So I thought, I thought these were really,
really clever ways of in which we could
(10:47):
introduce those terms and their definitions.
Yeah. No, I totally agree.
Well, then again,
I guess just for listeners who maybe
haven't seen this sort of clarify the
the three key outputs were a set of
digital capabilities for lecturers,
the set of digital capabilities
for support staff.
You know, for the whole range
of support staff there as well.
For now, we talked and then throughout
(11:08):
the process around support staff,
recruitment, support professional services,
there's lots of different terms
used within the sector,
but that could encompass HR that couldn't
market and finance, cleaning staff,
catering stuff, you know, so I know.
The research team.
Develop some that can be like
a pick and mix approach.
And the third key output was
a set of key terms.
(11:30):
And you're right,
obviously I've shared my perspective
of of being in a College in the
sense of I work with the ETF digital
teaching Professional framework.
I think it is DPF with the disc
digital capabilities, which are great.
But I guess my challenge and speak
really honestly was when trying to
engage us with the wider workforce.
(11:51):
Who are I'll lecture,
sort of speak or teachers in England,
or or or assessors,
or whatever role that they undertake.
Sometimes.
When it was more than one or two pages,
it just became too hard to make as
part of their daily work because
of something else will go well.
It's kind of plan lessons,
teach mark ring parents,
ring employers and all those
different aspects.
(12:11):
I know we were keen throughout is
how do we really we really condense
these something that's not sure
if the term bite size is right
but something that can be picked
up and used within practice.
And as you alluded to them in
terms of the illustrations,
which actually was Kenji's idea
but I I hope you take the credit.
Was just to really bring these
(12:31):
to life and make this pop out.
So yeah,
so for those that haven't seen
as a series of outputs,
of which there are eight in total.
There are eight posters you know,
so there are a range of posters for
the digital capabilities for extras,
some with just the image illustrations,
some with illustrations and
text to try and breakdown what
they actually mean in practice.
The same for the key terms.
(12:52):
And again with the key terms,
the phrase I like to use is
what we're trying
to provide a common language relating to
digital because even in our our launch event,
we're unfortunate.
Technology fields for 15 minutes,
which just shows what happens these days.
A lot of the conversation in the chat was.
How are you delivering this point in time?
And there was a lot of college
delivering the same way,
(13:12):
but they were calling it different things.
Which is right, because we've all
learned this new language along the way,
and I've done it myself.
I've learned lots of new words,
but I've used them in many different
contexts, many different ways.
And that has evolved for me as well.
So the whole purpose was to try and provide.
This consistent viewpoint,
and I'm so used earlier on um.
(13:34):
That research was really holding
the mirror up to the sector.
So this isn't the research team must
see them providing anything new,
it's just showing the sector back.
This is what you've told us,
here you go in terms of digital capabilities,
here you go in terms of key terms.
That's right, Johnny.
And what you see reminds me that one of
(13:56):
the other elements of the work was we.
When we had completed our
findings for Scotland,
we took them to colleges elsewhere too,
in England, one in Ireland,
Northern Ireland, one in Wales.
And we asked them to, you know,
compare those with their experiences
and and the one thing that came back
(14:19):
from Sheffield College was that you
can't be too basic what they found
when they were dealing with the the,
the old stuff.
In training and and development was
that they had assumed a certain level.
You know, we start at this level,
but in fact they had to go right
back to the very basics and.
(14:40):
I looked up the definition of baseline
and and Cambridge and and it says that
it's the minimum level that is necessary.
In a particular situation and and Kenji
sometimes uses the term a starter set,
so I think that's important
for people to understand.
(15:00):
Is that while some frameworks
have got different levels,
you know from basic, intermediate,
advanced we we have decided that we will
present what that minimum level is.
So.
If you're a new lecturer in a college,
what's the minimum set of skills that you
(15:21):
will need to be able to participate in,
in hybrid learning?
If you're joining as a member of admin
staff or professional staff and a college,
what's the minimum level that you need to
demonstrate in terms of your digital skills?
So I think that's that's what has
(15:43):
governed our selection of the.
Of of the those eight items for
for each of the lecturer skills
and the all staff skills.
I would totally agree with that.
I think that's one point really
important to references.
This is a baseline.
You know we recognized throughout
the the research that some members
of the workforce were undertaking
(16:05):
or demonstrating these capabilities
as part of their daily practice.
Fantastic.
But the big yeah requirement now
for the sector is for all of the
workforce to be competent with
the new all of these digital
capabilities to then prepare.
The workforce. Whatever's next.
And I guess one of my one of my concerns.
(16:27):
Is actually the digital divide amongst
the workforce might get even bigger.
So we're at risk of that now because.
I'm gonna say the most capable,
I've got even more capable last 18
months and we've gotta kind of work
collectively as a sector to make sure
that the the least capable digitally.
You know,
kind of develop their skills so that gap
(16:48):
doesn't broaden even further because we know,
you know,
working our colleges.
We've got a huge amount of lecturers
and they're all across that
continuum somewhere in terms of very
capable in that the less capable,
and so how do we condense those?
And hopefully a bit of work will
give everyone a kind of basic
starting point there as well.
Yeah,
that's interesting because some
(17:08):
of the colleges did comment
that. They had to hold back
as the way they put it.
We've had to hold hold back rain in
some of the more adventurous lecturers
who saw this as being you know,
giving them a a kind of mandate
to go away and doing new things
or explore new tools and and what
(17:30):
the the IT and learning technology
teams were saying was look we can
only support a limited number of
platforms or applications, so.
Just just go easy.
Go absolutely.
And that's a,
that's a challenge and that's the
I've always been one of those
lectures and IT department hated me
because I always wanted to try new
(17:51):
things and new technology and new software.
But actually what I learned
throughout my my career is actually,
let's keep it simple.
No I've used this football
analogy far too many times,
but it's like 442 and football.
Keep it simple,
get the basics down and get those working
and then you can add a bit of flair,
you know?
And I guess that's what I learned
as I went through education more
so and work with my colleagues.
(18:12):
This not being consistent
for students there as well,
you know,
so that that's really interesting that
element there and that takes some of
the final part really which is around.
When next, you know,
so kind of where do we go now
I guess what are the risks,
what are the challenges,
what are the opportunities?
So I'm keeping any of your
thoughts and that that one.
Well,
one one of the things that did strike me,
(18:33):
Johnny, was that when we.
Spoke with this student representation
in one of the focus groups.
There was a very strong pushback
that students were not being involved
enough in the decisions about digital.
And and.
That theme has come up in several
(18:55):
other conferences that I've attended
virtually in the last week while.
And and I think it's something
we need to take account of.
That we can't just say to students
we're moving to platform X or Y and
we're going to do do it this way.
Think colleges are going to
have to to sit down with their
(19:17):
student associations or whatever
their student representation is?
Even, even at the faculty level and say.
Can we Co create digital experiences
that are going to be of value for?
Learning going forward as young
(19:37):
people because don't don't forget
that as well as the use of digital
in in the learning and teaching,
these young people are also being
shown how to use digital as
part of their own working life.
I mean,
in some cases they're actually being
trained in the use of software,
but if we look at the broader picture,
(19:59):
it's about how does digital inform.
What I do in my, my, my,
my life skills for life and how
does it inform what I will do in in,
in the skills that I need for work?
So. We've got to be conscious that
the the use of digital is serving.
(20:20):
A range of purposes as far as
the students are concerned.
And and they should be brought into it.
I think that's really important point
and I think I I guess with this kind
of being new topic conversation I would
say the first port of call for me is
I'm gonna ask colleges lectures have
kind of responded and done whichever
way they think is best get it at that
(20:42):
point in time more reactionary and I
totally agree now potentially might
be the first time post pandemic,
but we have an opportunity of choice as
to how we can deliver programs maybe
not in terms of changing platforms
but in terms of the approaches.
To what's synchronous,
what's asynchronous and so on and so forth.
And I think the hard bit,
the hard bit is you often don't know,
(21:02):
you only know what you know,
you don't know what you don't know,
if that makes sense.
So to try and support sounds like a
little clunkier, kind of it isn't.
But obviously on the back of Expo
back in June,
we're doing some action research,
which we'll be sharing the scope of
those action research in the next four years,
getting back end of September.
Two of those topics in particular.
One is around design.
(21:24):
Um, and the second is around high
impact learning because I think
over the next two to four years,
I've viewed this very much as.
That will really shape what the
future looks like and I think a key
part that underpins that water is
exactly that engaging with students.
But for me personally that might
not be for another 6 to 12 months
to really understand well what are
the different options that we have.
(21:46):
I'm teaching level 4 computing you
know for me to have that informed
conversation with students might well
be look these are different options
and and try and pilot different
elements there but I think that's a
really interesting point in terms of.
I I don't think anyone would
disagree with us.
No.
What would you have said there about
about the design is would have would
(22:07):
have been my second point actually
Johnny because the question that
people were unable to answer was.
What stage are your lecturers at in
terms of stepping back and looking
at the design of their learning?
You know, design for learning.
And there was a general recognition that
(22:28):
the next steps got to be looking at
digital pedagogy so we can develop skills.
We know how to do that.
That's fairly straightforward.
Every every college has got a whole
plethora of different approaches to
training and giving people access to.
Online training and also one to
(22:49):
one support in the colleges.
But it's that important point about,
you know, how is it to be used?
What value is it going to have
in the learning and teaching.
So looking at aspects of the digital
pedagogy are going to be the next challenge.
I think for us in in the college sector,
I would totally agree.
I guess there's a case in point,
(23:10):
my conversations with colleagues
I used to work with in England.
You know their appetite or their
plan was to let's get back to face
to face as much as possible which
is understandable with miscellaneous
using developer skills but actually
look don't lose even all those
materials that you've developed
the last 12 to 15 months.
Think about how you can build that
into your your of course as you know
(23:30):
so my background sport and have my
Physiology has been a lot of great
videos developed teaching the bones
and muscles well actually you get
that's part of homework use that's
partly start activity in class
to give you then more technical
consolidate learning correct.
Misconceptions and and really
develop those skills.
So it's about as a starting point
for me is how do we not lose what
we've developed using materials
(23:51):
have already developed because time
is a big issue for lectures.
Absolutely I don't have time to generate
both but use that to inform your
pilots or your test with your learners.
Now every code is different,
every department is different.
But that was my big risk
straight away is let's just not
go back to how we did it because
that's the easiest answer.
Like digital pedagogy, we've talked all
(24:11):
around kind of digital capabilities.
But actually digital pedagogy is the
next bit that's around what was working,
how are you doing it wide and
how could you do that better?
So no, I I totally agree.
And the final bit for me before I'm
going to steal your Thunder here,
is there a mindset which came out
alludes to what I've just shared there?
And I think what we as a sector need
(24:33):
to do and whether it's a TQFP providers
colleges as part of induction is to
really and and and our our lecture
develop more broadly is to get in
that mindset around actually working.
We use digital to enhance our our
curriculum development but that
also comes as a mindset change for.
(24:54):
Lectures are currently from managers
for vice principals.
Because I was evaluated to earlier so
I I know you get desperate to come in
is around can it people on the ground
and I think when I was in a college.
Throughout the pandemic there
was a misconception,
or at times there's a lack of understanding
from those not necessarily on the ground
as to what was happening on the ground,
(25:15):
as to the real challenge
of lectures were facing.
Never mind students, sorry about that.
No, I think you've touched on
some very important points there,
Johnny.
There were several comments made in
the interviews about the need for
for middle managers to have a better
appreciation of what was capable
through through the application of
(25:37):
digital so that they could have.
Correct.
Expectations of what the staff were
were delivering for them and that
they could then in the professional
reviews they could give some form of
direction that would help lecturers
to say well where should I go next.
(25:58):
So that the whole point about having
a framework of capabilities and
having some way in which we might
measure those through either the just
discovery tool or through any other.
Tool at a college might create a
set of questions, for example,
that match to the baseline.
(26:20):
And skills that have been identified
in this research.
These provide some information that
should help let lecturers to say,
well, what's my next step?
But the, the,
the also need a manager who's
sympathetic and who says, yes,
I,
I recognize what your next steps
are and here's how we might provide
(26:43):
the support and help for you.
Yeah, I think it's context, isn't it?
It's that context because now more than ever,
you know what what a program looks
like maybe very different to the
colleague teaching next in the same area.
Never mind if you go that across
a college with different areas,
you know,
I think it's a really exciting
position to be in, but also.
(27:04):
Quite risky.
You know,
to kind of give that,
not to kind of let go of the reins
altogether,
but to give that kind of professional
autonomy and that professional design
to really embrace that creativity.
And the key bit which I have not touched,
which you did earlier, is wrong.
Industry. There's around meeting the
needs of industry moving forward.
I know from some conversation
being part of Scotland, yes.
(27:25):
Within the digital sector that's that's
transformed ridiculously within the 15
months outside of the digital sector
and also it's important and I know
all colleges are doing this is really
aligning to industry and actually
what does the future workforce look
like and then through the digital
capabilities and developments of the
workforce and then with our students
there as well and within our programs,
(27:47):
you know, so I think it's,
it's a huge element.
But that needs to be part of our
daily practice.
Put some transform or transpires
within our curriculum with our
learners and development with digital
capabilities for everyday life,
not just for their their specific
subject area.
But yes,
along with that,
(28:07):
we've got the requirement now
for registration,
GTCS registration for lecturers
and the set of professional
standards has a very lengthy
section on on the use of digital.
So there's an expectation now that as part
of a lecturer's professional development.
(28:28):
And and the the the to be able to
evidence that professional development
and in some form then there will need
to be some way of saying here's where I
am in terms of my digital capability.
Yeah and there there there they
are couched in very vague terms
(28:49):
actually within the standard but
that shouldn't stop us trying to find
some ways in which we might arrive
at some kind of measurement of.
What those capabilities are?
No,
I think that's a really good
point to mention there.
Water as well because I know you did a
bit of work upon the conclusion of the
research kind of mapping the outputs
to the professional standards as well.
(29:10):
Yeah.
And that's an nicely tight kind of
it's really bring this conversation
I'm going to close,
but it closed for today because I
know this will be the start point for
many conversations moving forward.
So really just to recap for for
listeners that maybe haven't seen you
put as as three key sections for outputs,
what is digital capabilities for extras,
one is digital capabilities
for support staff.
And one of the set of key terms.
(29:31):
So on the CDN website there are
eight different visuals which
can be downloaded will get into
those 3 sections as well as a full
research report that kind of what
does the research report together.
Um.
And I think really the the key
bit is if you haven't done all
done already is used as a starting
point share with your colleagues
and is what alluded to there.
(29:52):
Really this is part of professional practice,
this is part of my daily practice
and it's really important that
these now if people aren't aware.
Uses maybe as a starting point,
and also some kids will
have their own versions.
Great, that's fine.
This is really just trying to
compliment those and as I I've I've
not used this phrase yet today,
but I have done many times since I've joined.
CDM is an opportunity to look over the
(30:13):
fence and see what others are doing and
really either give that reassurance or
try and direct the scope of your work.
So while that thank you again
for taking the research,
but also thank you today for joining
us and kind of really sharing these.
And as I kind of alluded to before,
this is not the end of this conversation.
It's a start of many,
many more conversations on this topic
and one for me it's really quite excited.
(30:34):
So think we're getting more.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to the first episode
of the Pedagogy Mothers Podcast for
the 2021-2022 academic session.
The purpose of this podcast is to
bring the force from key topics of
conversation in relation to learning
and teaching to discuss and breakdown
aspects of practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to
integrate these into daily practice.
Today, I'm delighted to be joined
(00:28):
by Walter Patterson,
but we'll be discussing the
research on the table by the CDN
research and Enhancement Center,
which focuses on the digital
capabilities of the workforce.
Walter, good morning. How are you?
Yes, good morning, Tony.
I'm well, thanks,
and I'm looking forward to this opportunity.
To go over some of the work that
I've been doing along with CDN and
(00:50):
with other researchers in your group.
To provide guidance and support for
colleges as we go forward into whatever
the next normal is going to be.
No, that's fantastic.
What I love that term.
The next normal, you know the term,
the new normal or whatever is
used throughout the pandemic.
But the next normal to me really
(01:11):
frames as well.
It's still going to change.
It's just what is the next one?
What is the next number?
I think there's no better way than
kicking off the podcast series for this
session then by looking this research.
And I think for context for listeners
that may not have come across it,
this was something I was
turned around quite quickly.
So from conversations with
in April of this year,
(01:31):
we start the research in
May and concluded in August.
So I think if you don't mind,
Walter,
if you don't mind sharing what was
the research about kind of how
did you gather the information,
can you tell us a little bit kind of
where to start from your perspective?
That's OK.
The basic premise was that during
the pandemic we had been faced
with demands on student history,
(01:54):
on lecturer digital capabilities
that weren't fully anticipated
in the frameworks that.
Colleges have been using to inform their
own digital strategies before the pandemic.
So the first starting point for us was
to actually look at those frameworks,
(02:14):
they just digital capability
framework that was very well known
by all of the colleges and also the
education and Training Foundation,
the IETF framework which is very
popular with colleges in the South.
And along with that,
we recognise that there had been
(02:35):
a publication of the Scotland's
colleges digital ambition,
which is a very full statement of
the ambitions of these colleges to
not only have digital infused in all
of their teaching and learning practice,
but also to have it infused into
most of what they were doing in
(02:56):
in terms of student support and
what their professional staff.
We're engaged in.
So it really was a kind of whole
college approach to digital.
So we examined the strategies
of these colleges and Johnny and
that that work was quite revealing
because it showed
(03:16):
that the strategies were quite different
in their form and their format.
They were quite different in the way
that they addressed the digital ambition
of the college and at a local level.
So these were the kind of basic documents
that we had to to start off and they
(03:37):
formed the background of the A set of
topic questions that we were going to
use when engaging with the colleges,
but also interesting and.
And yeah, I think we all agree that you
know from the start of pandemic in March
2022 when we undertook this research
which was really kind of May 2021,
even on that was what say 15 months,
(03:57):
14 months, there was,
there was a huge shift in progress
over that time.
And now you can identify this throughout
the research around the digital strategies.
Um, but also by talking to people,
you know, I think it was a lot of
conversations with people in college
just to really understand what was
happening on the ground, so to speak.
It was gonna be.
So what else did you kind of find from,
from that element there,
(04:19):
from those discussions while they.
Yes, well,
CDN facilitated these interviews
with the colleges,
and most colleges did respond.
And it was quite interesting Johnny,
to be talking with senior staff in the
colleges who had responsibility for
digital in relation to learning and teaching.
(04:42):
So I I talked to vice principals
of learning and teaching,
I talked to faculty heads in
some cases and others.
I I was looking at the the senior manager
for Learning technology and the college.
So I it was quite good to
get that range of views.
Both from people who are more
(05:04):
immersed in the technical aspects
of it and and those who were
responsible for an oversight of.
Effective teaching and learning
as we went through the pandemic.
So I mentioned a moment ago
that we provided a topic list.
(05:25):
Not not to constrain the conversation,
but really just to give us some headline.
And points to address and
in in that conversation.
So I called it a semi structured
interview because I I just,
I allowed the individual interviewees
to to take up whatever topics
(05:47):
they felt were most important
for them in in the conversation.
But during those interviews
I took notes myself.
But we did record those interviews
and the transcripts then became
another important source of
confirmation of what the key points.
(06:08):
Where as we move to the analysis phase.
But,
but that that first stage of them
talking to people and and listening
to the stories was actually,
it was fascinating and it it,
it was, it was the really the
most enjoyable part of it.
Just to hear what was coming through
from the college is about, you know,
(06:30):
how scary it all was for them,
but how proud they were of
what they had been able to do,
you know,
in that short burst of activity and in
April and May of 2020. No, that's great.
And being part of a college myself at
that point in time from March 2020,
November 2020, yeah,
I fully recognize first hand,
(06:52):
you know, the flip overnight to well
how do we deliver now to ex motor
students with Xbox stuff you know,
and another college that I worked in it,
it's the same story.
I thought Scott colleges overnight
and it was continual training,
continual development of both
knowledge and awareness and all that,
which is fantastic.
I know when we spoke earlier
on in terms of the research,
(07:13):
we were keen to really focus on the
outputs around the wider workforce.
So from the the interviews and
the focus groups that you had,
what were the key outputs
that were derived from the,
from the research or from the
findings domain shows what?
Yes, well.
One of the things I was looking for
(07:34):
joining was a sense of what had
become the they they really key
necessary skills that lecturer should
have in order to manage groups that
were online and remote from them.
For,
for as you know from for some lecturers
that wasn't a new thing because
(07:55):
they've been doing it for quite some time,
particularly in the UHI colleges.
But for many this was completely
new ground so that that first
phase gave us a sense of.
What lectures required and
for them to be comfortable and
effective in their delivery?
(08:17):
But when when we do that back
to the focus groups to say here,
here are the here's the the competencies
that we think are the absolutely
essential ones for ensuring that
there's effective learning and teaching.
The question came up,
but what about support staff?
What about professional staff?
(08:38):
That question was asked of us.
It was asked several times.
And so I think we felt at that point
that it was absolutely necessary
that to produce a complete support
and advice for the colleges
we really had to address.
This question about all staff
(09:00):
digital capability, Yep.
No, no, I think that's great.
And obviously the third output
was was the key terms as well.
And I know from other conversations,
did this stem from maybe some of
the digital strategies as well in
terms of terms or it did, yes.
We were conscious of that before
we began the work.
(09:20):
You know,
having examined the digital strategies,
we could see that there were certain terms.
Iflex hybrid blended, for example,
that were being used in it
seemed interchangeably at times,
and in other places that looked as
though they were giving a different
(09:41):
meaning to it than we had found anothers.
But in the interviews themselves,
those terms surfaced again.
No people were using those terms.
And so I think it became clear
that it would be helpful to the
sector to just set out in in some
detail and with some examples too
(10:02):
for them to to look at.
And along with that.
I think it was your particular idea to.
Look at could we produce an icon or
some representation of that skill?
That would appeal to, you know,
(10:24):
make it immediately obvious.
So for example, if we look at the cyber
resilience image that you produced.
It it clearly shows that there's something
that helps you if if you fall into the water,
there's going to be a life belt for
you that gets you back out again.
So I thought, I thought these were really,
really clever ways of in which we could
(10:47):
introduce those terms and their definitions.
Yeah. No, I totally agree.
Well, then again,
I guess just for listeners who maybe
haven't seen this sort of clarify the
the three key outputs were a set of
digital capabilities for lecturers,
the set of digital capabilities
for support staff.
You know, for the whole range
of support staff there as well.
For now, we talked and then throughout
(11:08):
the process around support staff,
recruitment, support professional services,
there's lots of different terms
used within the sector,
but that could encompass HR that couldn't
market and finance, cleaning staff,
catering stuff, you know, so I know.
The research team.
Develop some that can be like
a pick and mix approach.
And the third key output was
a set of key terms.
(11:30):
And you're right,
obviously I've shared my perspective
of of being in a College in the
sense of I work with the ETF digital
teaching Professional framework.
I think it is DPF with the disc
digital capabilities, which are great.
But I guess my challenge and speak
really honestly was when trying to
engage us with the wider workforce.
(11:51):
Who are I'll lecture,
sort of speak or teachers in England,
or or or assessors,
or whatever role that they undertake.
Sometimes.
When it was more than one or two pages,
it just became too hard to make as
part of their daily work because
of something else will go well.
It's kind of plan lessons,
teach mark ring parents,
ring employers and all those
different aspects.
(12:11):
I know we were keen throughout is
how do we really we really condense
these something that's not sure
if the term bite size is right
but something that can be picked
up and used within practice.
And as you alluded to them in
terms of the illustrations,
which actually was Kenji's idea
but I I hope you take the credit.
Was just to really bring these
(12:31):
to life and make this pop out.
So yeah,
so for those that haven't seen
as a series of outputs,
of which there are eight in total.
There are eight posters you know,
so there are a range of posters for
the digital capabilities for extras,
some with just the image illustrations,
some with illustrations and
text to try and breakdown what
they actually mean in practice.
The same for the key terms.
(12:52):
And again with the key terms,
the phrase I like to use is
what we're trying
to provide a common language relating to
digital because even in our our launch event,
we're unfortunate.
Technology fields for 15 minutes,
which just shows what happens these days.
A lot of the conversation in the chat was.
How are you delivering this point in time?
And there was a lot of college
delivering the same way,
(13:12):
but they were calling it different things.
Which is right, because we've all
learned this new language along the way,
and I've done it myself.
I've learned lots of new words,
but I've used them in many different
contexts, many different ways.
And that has evolved for me as well.
So the whole purpose was to try and provide.
This consistent viewpoint,
and I'm so used earlier on um.
(13:34):
That research was really holding
the mirror up to the sector.
So this isn't the research team must
see them providing anything new,
it's just showing the sector back.
This is what you've told us,
here you go in terms of digital capabilities,
here you go in terms of key terms.
That's right, Johnny.
And what you see reminds me that one of
(13:56):
the other elements of the work was we.
When we had completed our
findings for Scotland,
we took them to colleges elsewhere too,
in England, one in Ireland,
Northern Ireland, one in Wales.
And we asked them to, you know,
compare those with their experiences
and and the one thing that came back
(14:19):
from Sheffield College was that you
can't be too basic what they found
when they were dealing with the the,
the old stuff.
In training and and development was
that they had assumed a certain level.
You know, we start at this level,
but in fact they had to go right
back to the very basics and.
(14:40):
I looked up the definition of baseline
and and Cambridge and and it says that
it's the minimum level that is necessary.
In a particular situation and and Kenji
sometimes uses the term a starter set,
so I think that's important
for people to understand.
(15:00):
Is that while some frameworks
have got different levels,
you know from basic, intermediate,
advanced we we have decided that we will
present what that minimum level is.
So.
If you're a new lecturer in a college,
what's the minimum set of skills that you
(15:21):
will need to be able to participate in,
in hybrid learning?
If you're joining as a member of admin
staff or professional staff and a college,
what's the minimum level that you need to
demonstrate in terms of your digital skills?
So I think that's that's what has
(15:43):
governed our selection of the.
Of of the those eight items for
for each of the lecturer skills
and the all staff skills.
I would totally agree with that.
I think that's one point really
important to references.
This is a baseline.
You know we recognized throughout
the the research that some members
of the workforce were undertaking
(16:05):
or demonstrating these capabilities
as part of their daily practice.
Fantastic.
But the big yeah requirement now
for the sector is for all of the
workforce to be competent with
the new all of these digital
capabilities to then prepare.
The workforce. Whatever's next.
And I guess one of my one of my concerns.
(16:27):
Is actually the digital divide amongst
the workforce might get even bigger.
So we're at risk of that now because.
I'm gonna say the most capable,
I've got even more capable last 18
months and we've gotta kind of work
collectively as a sector to make sure
that the the least capable digitally.
You know,
kind of develop their skills so that gap
(16:48):
doesn't broaden even further because we know,
you know,
working our colleges.
We've got a huge amount of lecturers
and they're all across that
continuum somewhere in terms of very
capable in that the less capable,
and so how do we condense those?
And hopefully a bit of work will
give everyone a kind of basic
starting point there as well.
Yeah,
that's interesting because some
(17:08):
of the colleges did comment
that. They had to hold back
as the way they put it.
We've had to hold hold back rain in
some of the more adventurous lecturers
who saw this as being you know,
giving them a a kind of mandate
to go away and doing new things
or explore new tools and and what
(17:30):
the the IT and learning technology
teams were saying was look we can
only support a limited number of
platforms or applications, so.
Just just go easy.
Go absolutely.
And that's a,
that's a challenge and that's the
I've always been one of those
lectures and IT department hated me
because I always wanted to try new
(17:51):
things and new technology and new software.
But actually what I learned
throughout my my career is actually,
let's keep it simple.
No I've used this football
analogy far too many times,
but it's like 442 and football.
Keep it simple,
get the basics down and get those working
and then you can add a bit of flair,
you know?
And I guess that's what I learned
as I went through education more
so and work with my colleagues.
(18:12):
This not being consistent
for students there as well,
you know,
so that that's really interesting that
element there and that takes some of
the final part really which is around.
When next, you know,
so kind of where do we go now
I guess what are the risks,
what are the challenges,
what are the opportunities?
So I'm keeping any of your
thoughts and that that one.
Well,
one one of the things that did strike me,
(18:33):
Johnny, was that when we.
Spoke with this student representation
in one of the focus groups.
There was a very strong pushback
that students were not being involved
enough in the decisions about digital.
And and.
That theme has come up in several
(18:55):
other conferences that I've attended
virtually in the last week while.
And and I think it's something
we need to take account of.
That we can't just say to students
we're moving to platform X or Y and
we're going to do do it this way.
Think colleges are going to
have to to sit down with their
(19:17):
student associations or whatever
their student representation is?
Even, even at the faculty level and say.
Can we Co create digital experiences
that are going to be of value for?
Learning going forward as young
(19:37):
people because don't don't forget
that as well as the use of digital
in in the learning and teaching,
these young people are also being
shown how to use digital as
part of their own working life.
I mean,
in some cases they're actually being
trained in the use of software,
but if we look at the broader picture,
(19:59):
it's about how does digital inform.
What I do in my, my, my,
my life skills for life and how
does it inform what I will do in in,
in the skills that I need for work?
So. We've got to be conscious that
the the use of digital is serving.
(20:20):
A range of purposes as far as
the students are concerned.
And and they should be brought into it.
I think that's really important point
and I think I I guess with this kind
of being new topic conversation I would
say the first port of call for me is
I'm gonna ask colleges lectures have
kind of responded and done whichever
way they think is best get it at that
(20:42):
point in time more reactionary and I
totally agree now potentially might
be the first time post pandemic,
but we have an opportunity of choice as
to how we can deliver programs maybe
not in terms of changing platforms
but in terms of the approaches.
To what's synchronous,
what's asynchronous and so on and so forth.
And I think the hard bit,
the hard bit is you often don't know,
(21:02):
you only know what you know,
you don't know what you don't know,
if that makes sense.
So to try and support sounds like a
little clunkier, kind of it isn't.
But obviously on the back of Expo
back in June,
we're doing some action research,
which we'll be sharing the scope of
those action research in the next four years,
getting back end of September.
Two of those topics in particular.
One is around design.
(21:24):
Um, and the second is around high
impact learning because I think
over the next two to four years,
I've viewed this very much as.
That will really shape what the
future looks like and I think a key
part that underpins that water is
exactly that engaging with students.
But for me personally that might
not be for another 6 to 12 months
to really understand well what are
the different options that we have.
(21:46):
I'm teaching level 4 computing you
know for me to have that informed
conversation with students might well
be look these are different options
and and try and pilot different
elements there but I think that's a
really interesting point in terms of.
I I don't think anyone would
disagree with us.
No.
What would you have said there about
about the design is would have would
(22:07):
have been my second point actually
Johnny because the question that
people were unable to answer was.
What stage are your lecturers at in
terms of stepping back and looking
at the design of their learning?
You know, design for learning.
And there was a general recognition that
(22:28):
the next steps got to be looking at
digital pedagogy so we can develop skills.
We know how to do that.
That's fairly straightforward.
Every every college has got a whole
plethora of different approaches to
training and giving people access to.
Online training and also one to
(22:49):
one support in the colleges.
But it's that important point about,
you know, how is it to be used?
What value is it going to have
in the learning and teaching.
So looking at aspects of the digital
pedagogy are going to be the next challenge.
I think for us in in the college sector,
I would totally agree.
I guess there's a case in point,
(23:10):
my conversations with colleagues
I used to work with in England.
You know their appetite or their
plan was to let's get back to face
to face as much as possible which
is understandable with miscellaneous
using developer skills but actually
look don't lose even all those
materials that you've developed
the last 12 to 15 months.
Think about how you can build that
into your your of course as you know
(23:30):
so my background sport and have my
Physiology has been a lot of great
videos developed teaching the bones
and muscles well actually you get
that's part of homework use that's
partly start activity in class
to give you then more technical
consolidate learning correct.
Misconceptions and and really
develop those skills.
So it's about as a starting point
for me is how do we not lose what
we've developed using materials
(23:51):
have already developed because time
is a big issue for lectures.
Absolutely I don't have time to generate
both but use that to inform your
pilots or your test with your learners.
Now every code is different,
every department is different.
But that was my big risk
straight away is let's just not
go back to how we did it because
that's the easiest answer.
Like digital pedagogy, we've talked all
(24:11):
around kind of digital capabilities.
But actually digital pedagogy is the
next bit that's around what was working,
how are you doing it wide and
how could you do that better?
So no, I I totally agree.
And the final bit for me before I'm
going to steal your Thunder here,
is there a mindset which came out
alludes to what I've just shared there?
And I think what we as a sector need
(24:33):
to do and whether it's a TQFP providers
colleges as part of induction is to
really and and and our our lecture
develop more broadly is to get in
that mindset around actually working.
We use digital to enhance our our
curriculum development but that
also comes as a mindset change for.
(24:54):
Lectures are currently from managers
for vice principals.
Because I was evaluated to earlier so
I I know you get desperate to come in
is around can it people on the ground
and I think when I was in a college.
Throughout the pandemic there
was a misconception,
or at times there's a lack of understanding
from those not necessarily on the ground
as to what was happening on the ground,
(25:15):
as to the real challenge
of lectures were facing.
Never mind students, sorry about that.
No, I think you've touched on
some very important points there,
Johnny.
There were several comments made in
the interviews about the need for
for middle managers to have a better
appreciation of what was capable
through through the application of
(25:37):
digital so that they could have.
Correct.
Expectations of what the staff were
were delivering for them and that
they could then in the professional
reviews they could give some form of
direction that would help lecturers
to say well where should I go next.
(25:58):
So that the whole point about having
a framework of capabilities and
having some way in which we might
measure those through either the just
discovery tool or through any other.
Tool at a college might create a
set of questions, for example,
that match to the baseline.
(26:20):
And skills that have been identified
in this research.
These provide some information that
should help let lecturers to say,
well, what's my next step?
But the, the,
the also need a manager who's
sympathetic and who says, yes,
I,
I recognize what your next steps
are and here's how we might provide
(26:43):
the support and help for you.
Yeah, I think it's context, isn't it?
It's that context because now more than ever,
you know what what a program looks
like maybe very different to the
colleague teaching next in the same area.
Never mind if you go that across
a college with different areas,
you know,
I think it's a really exciting
position to be in, but also.
(27:04):
Quite risky.
You know,
to kind of give that,
not to kind of let go of the reins
altogether,
but to give that kind of professional
autonomy and that professional design
to really embrace that creativity.
And the key bit which I have not touched,
which you did earlier, is wrong.
Industry. There's around meeting the
needs of industry moving forward.
I know from some conversation
being part of Scotland, yes.
(27:25):
Within the digital sector that's that's
transformed ridiculously within the 15
months outside of the digital sector
and also it's important and I know
all colleges are doing this is really
aligning to industry and actually
what does the future workforce look
like and then through the digital
capabilities and developments of the
workforce and then with our students
there as well and within our programs,
(27:47):
you know, so I think it's,
it's a huge element.
But that needs to be part of our
daily practice.
Put some transform or transpires
within our curriculum with our
learners and development with digital
capabilities for everyday life,
not just for their their specific
subject area.
But yes,
along with that,
(28:07):
we've got the requirement now
for registration,
GTCS registration for lecturers
and the set of professional
standards has a very lengthy
section on on the use of digital.
So there's an expectation now that as part
of a lecturer's professional development.
(28:28):
And and the the the to be able to
evidence that professional development
and in some form then there will need
to be some way of saying here's where I
am in terms of my digital capability.
Yeah and there there there they
are couched in very vague terms
(28:49):
actually within the standard but
that shouldn't stop us trying to find
some ways in which we might arrive
at some kind of measurement of.
What those capabilities are?
No,
I think that's a really good
point to mention there.
Water as well because I know you did a
bit of work upon the conclusion of the
research kind of mapping the outputs
to the professional standards as well.
(29:10):
Yeah.
And that's an nicely tight kind of
it's really bring this conversation
I'm going to close,
but it closed for today because I
know this will be the start point for
many conversations moving forward.
So really just to recap for for
listeners that maybe haven't seen you
put as as three key sections for outputs,
what is digital capabilities for extras,
one is digital capabilities
for support staff.
And one of the set of key terms.
(29:31):
So on the CDN website there are
eight different visuals which
can be downloaded will get into
those 3 sections as well as a full
research report that kind of what
does the research report together.
Um.
And I think really the the key
bit is if you haven't done all
done already is used as a starting
point share with your colleagues
and is what alluded to there.
(29:52):
Really this is part of professional practice,
this is part of my daily practice
and it's really important that
these now if people aren't aware.
Uses maybe as a starting point,
and also some kids will
have their own versions.
Great, that's fine.
This is really just trying to
compliment those and as I I've I've
not used this phrase yet today,
but I have done many times since I've joined.
CDM is an opportunity to look over the
(30:13):
fence and see what others are doing and
really either give that reassurance or
try and direct the scope of your work.
So while that thank you again
for taking the research,
but also thank you today for joining
us and kind of really sharing these.
And as I kind of alluded to before,
this is not the end of this conversation.
It's a start of many,
many more conversations on this topic
and one for me it's really quite excited.
(30:34):
So think we're getting more.
Thank you.
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