October 6, 2021 • 32 mins
In this episode, we talk to Dr Lee Coutts about the topic of Transformative Learning and Teaching. Lee shares his perspective on how education can be socially progressive, making a positive difference to society. He describes a transformative learning pedagogical approach for and with students, and how adopting approaches such as (student-led) professionally authentic assessment can make a real impact on curriculum delivery.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hello and welcome to the second episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast for
the 2021-2022 academic session.
The purpose of the podcast is to bring
the force and key topics of conversation
in relation to learning and teaching,
to discuss and break down aspects
of practice, and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how we can
integrate these into our daily practice.
Today I'm delighted to be joined by Doctor
(00:27):
Lee cuts from Strathclyde University.
Lee, welcome. How are you? Hi, Johnny.
I'm good, thanks and thanks for inviting
me to come and chat to you today.
You're very welcome. Delight.
You can join on a Friday afternoon as
soon as Shane for a change, you know?
So I appreciate your time,
appreciate your input.
And today we'll be talking around the topic
of transformative learning and teaching.
So I've got no doubt.
(00:48):
So Melissa, we think, well,
what do you mean by that?
So yeah,
probably a good place to kick us off.
So kind of what is meant and can in
your interpretation of that term,
so transformative learning and teaching.
Yeah, I think you're right.
People can interpret what that term means
in different ways and for different people.
Transformative teaching and learning
does mean different things.
(01:09):
And really what what I want to talk
about today and share today is my
take on and how I understand it.
But for different people it will
mean different things.
And I think, you know,
a good starting point is really just to
say it's about making a positive difference.
You know,
it's about making a positive
difference to people's lives.
And you might say, well.
All education needs to do that,
(01:30):
but this is a particular perspective and.
Or as a particular way,
I feel like I've been able to do
that so before before I start going
to some of the the details about it,
I think it's worthwhile just talking
a little about my own experience
and where some of this.
View that I have has come from so
I'm spending a significant amount
(01:51):
of time in college myself.
I did that and then see and then HNC
and when I was younger when I was 1516.
And so college for me was was my
route to get into into university and
I qualified as a secondary school
teacher and I stayed in school
sector for about three years before
(02:12):
moving into college and I worked
in a college for about 10 years.
One of the colleges in Glasgow.
If the latter part of that 10 years I.
Secular managed that particular section.
So I I had quite a lot of experience
in working with college learners and
the challenges facing the sector and so on.
A couple of years ago I had the
(02:33):
opportunity to move into higher education.
So I I did that.
I complete that.
I'm asked doesn't complete a doctorate
and moved into to start clients.
Over the last couple of years,
my my thinking has really been informed
by discussions with colleagues,
integration and reading,
with academic writing,
and also having quite a lot of time
to think about my own experience in
college as a student and also a lecture.
(02:55):
And I think this is a really
interesting time to be talking about
transformative learning and teaching,
because now is the time.
Of of changes, period of change
and annual sector over the last 10
years has seen significant change.
But we are in a situation to an
extent at the moment where we have
an unpredictable future with COVID,
with changes in technology and so on.
(03:16):
We've changed about happened.
And next 18 next Gen.
net, net skills we promote and so on.
Again, this is it.
This is a period of change and uncertainty.
So for me,
transformative learning teaching
is about challenging and moving
away from certain mindsets,
(03:37):
perspectives,
beliefs and assumptions that
might be problematic.
And it's about trying to be explicitly
aware of the assumptions that we have,
but how they make us see and
understand and act in the world.
Now that's not to say the assumptions
(03:58):
we have are not valid or are not right,
and so on,
but it's about explicitly
acknowledging that there are always
other ways to view something.
And it's about taking those
assumptions and saying to yourself,
well, that's one way of seeing it,
but what about this perspective or
what about another perspective?
And then making decisions and
(04:21):
making choices about how to behave,
how to act based on that new or
adapted understanding of how
we see or view something.
And it ties really well and with the
social justice and sustainability agenda,
it promotes an activist stance.
(04:41):
And I know a lot of people might
think and I certainly thought
when I heard that term activist,
you know, that sort of.
Conjured up all sorts of images in my
mind and, and that's not what I mean.
An activist stance is really having
this commitment to social justice,
challenging certain assumptions which
can make people and feel feel uncomfortable.
Sometimes it's about asking questions,
(05:04):
but using that information to have
a positive impact on learners.
And that's the key thing here.
And but before we can do that,
we have to think about where
learning takes place.
And you know,
one of the questions that I would
ask a lot of college lecturers is
have you really spent a lot of
time thinking about your college
(05:24):
and its community?
And I don't just mean,
you know,
that the learners that go there
or the Sid area that it's in,
but I mean things like the
political stances of the area,
economic and assumptions
we make about the area,
the social assumptions we make.
The ideological assumptions we make,
you know,
release spending time and interrogating the
(05:46):
assumptions that we make about our colleges,
our communities,
learners and even ourselves.
And probably a lot of
people don't spend a lot
of time really thinking about that and
also thinking about the impact of those
assumptions on the learner experience.
And a lot of the views that us as individuals
(06:06):
have will come from our own experience.
Of course they do. They'll come from.
Things that we've seen other people
do and they'll come from views that
we've we've obtained from reading,
from talking to people,
from experience, and so on.
But there's always an opportunity to
challenge those and to think about,
well, I hold this view,
(06:27):
what is the impact of that view on
my learners and what are what are
the other ways of seeing the view
that I have and could that be a
more positive outcome for learners?
So I know spoken quite a lot there,
but it's it's,
it's not really easy to define I guess.
So I suppose if I was going to summarize
(06:47):
I would I would be saying in my
eyes it's about making a difference.
It's about really taking time out to
examine assumptions and the beliefs
that we have and thinking about what
do those beliefs and assumptions
and views mean for our learners,
and are there other ways of viewing them?
(07:09):
So it does not give you a bit of
an insight that that's a very
extensive introduction, you know,
I think it's really good.
I think it gives a wider context
and then narrows it down,
but kind of gives a little.
A little tough.
You are a number of different elements
that kind of start to unpick that
which I think is really useful.
But I know I've got no doubt
(07:31):
someone actually kind of thing,
yeah, I do that great.
You know and I think the purpose
of conversation is absolutely
is happening in education.
Absolutely.
It's important for everybody to consider
how we do that and certainly this
never stops versus continuing evolving.
We can include their own start, you know,
it's a time of opportunity for change.
(07:51):
Right now there's always an
opportunity for change,
but being ignited because of
recent circumstances, yeah, yeah,
I think it's really important,
really quite exciting there as well, so.
I think you're right this week with,
you know, we're still going through a
period of extensive change and we're
about to go through further change
particularly in the college sector with.
No mandatory registration each and next
(08:14):
generation changes in SQL and so on.
You know, we're about to see another
significant period of change over
the next 5 to 10 years and and I
suppose this is an alternative
approach and to embracing that change.
Yeah, and I think.
We are and we are in kind of
going through a lot of changes.
Absolutely. Systems are changing,
(08:34):
systems around us are changing.
But actually our role effectively
hasn't changed.
Absolutely not.
I know you're saying has,
but yeah and I think what's important for.
For people involved in education to really
remember is actually what our role here
is to educate learners in front of us.
Let's prepare them for the next steps of the
workforce or wherever they wish to go to.
But yeah,
those natural things that are evolving
(08:56):
around the periphery or a bit more
substantial than our rules do,
impact on that. Absolutely.
Yeah. So come back,
the topic of transforming learning,
teaching and nose is all part of the topic,
by the way,
is I've got no other people think,
right,
either I do it or what does it look like?
So you can.
You've teased through a couple of
elements there in terms of looking
(09:16):
at well and takes place and looking
to learners what's the advice or
thoughts of using relation to that.
So I think there's there's lots
of different ways we can approach
this but I think the the first
thing we have to think about and
and recognise is that.
All classrooms,
regardless of whether you know
they're called setting a school
setting and education setting.
(09:38):
All classrooms are sites
of power and privilege.
And you know,
that's not something we need technology.
And we also have to acknowledge
that all education is political,
you know, the decisions that's
being made about education,
what we teach, how we teach and so on.
And there's a political motive there.
And,
and I think I would say to the first
thing I would say to people is we
(09:58):
need to recognize that and we need
to think about and be very open and
honest in the conversations we have
with students and with colleagues
about the decisions we've made.
So, for example,
if we were talking about a particular
textbook or a particular resource that
we're going to use with students,
we would be thinking about, well,
(10:18):
what's made us choose that book?
That by choosing that resource for that book,
who are we potentially excluding?
You know, what assumptions are we making?
What values are are we promoting by
using that resource and what views
are we promoting and therefore what
are we potentially excluding from
(10:39):
using that particular resource?
And if we think about an assessment
task that we
get learners to do, for example, will,
what are the assumptions we've made
when we've been designing that task,
we've been creating about it.
What's LED us to make the decisions
about that task that we have
and but who are we potentially
(11:00):
excluding by making those decisions?
So it's about taking a step
back and thinking about, OK,
I've made this decision.
About the resource,
about assessment and about student or so on,
I've made an assumption.
What are the other ways of looking at it?
You know, who am I potentially excluding?
What implicit assumptions have I made?
(11:21):
And sometimes we might not be
able to see those for ourselves,
sometimes being to ask students,
you know, what assumptions have I made
when I've been doing this with you?
We might need to ask colleagues,
we need to ask other people,
and that can be uncomfortable sometimes.
But if we really are to transform things
and have a real commitment to social justice,
(11:42):
and that's what this is about,
really.
Then we need to be able to have sometimes
uncomfortable situations or conversations
so that we can introduce positive change.
No,
I think it's really some point Sir and.
I don't know what a conversation the
other day about a different topic,
but I think it comes back
to routines and habits.
(12:02):
I've got no doubt.
Again, I'm going back to some
colleagues I used to work with.
I think one how long did
after every textbook.
It's not necessarily about being literal
without going through that process and
thinking and knowing your learners
and developing that understanding,
that mindset around that,
the learning and teaching practices
that we have and the approach that we
have and resources that we utilize.
It's that consideration, isn't it?
(12:23):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
And and it's about.
Really taking students as an as,
as partners Co constructors
of their learning.
So students have a big role in
this and we've spoken a lot about
the lecturers assumptions and
the lecturers views and so on.
But students can give you a
huge insight into that.
They might be able to tell you
(12:45):
the assumptions that they think
you have and you might not know,
you might not recognize them yourself.
And it's really about having
students being the core constructor
and the resources that are used,
the tasks that are.
Button you have everything about their
learning says about them and their
their goals and their aspirations,
engaging them in all aspects
(13:06):
of making decisions.
And if we,
if we truly are learner
centered or student centered.
And students should be
involved in every decision,
every decision that's
made about their learning,
about how they've assessed
about their journey and so on.
They're also right there.
Yep. No, I would agree.
And I think the other element you mentioned
(13:28):
is really important to engage with is PS,
you know,
because.
You know.
Lecturing can be quite isolating
rule you know non more so now
than ever where might be working
in an online world or a more you
know there's different terms kind of
band around this kind of what's class
whenever remote because we're engaged
but actually can feel quite remote
quite isolating but even back in
the pre code will collaboration with
(13:49):
peers is really important especially
within this topic there as well.
So what are your thoughts on that
or what are you I guess maybe even
tips or advice as well for colleagues
around that I think I absolutely
agree collaboration is crucial and
and that partnership with colleagues.
Is is. More fundamental and I,
I know it all takes time, you know,
I appreciate that and you know
(14:10):
we're all busy people,
we've all got things to do,
but we have to recognize the benefits
or potential benefits of collaboration
not just for ourselves but for
our colleagues and also students.
Now collaboration could,
could mean a number of things that
might might involve sitting down
with a colleague for half an hour
and talking through what they're
doing the students while they're
(14:31):
doing it in a certain way, you know,
thinking about some of the some of
the decisions that they've made.
But one of the things I would
encourage elections to do is is
to go and see other people teach.
You know,
actually go and observe other
lectures and and other disciplines.
For example,
learn or or view what they are doing.
Think about how that relates
(14:52):
to your practice.
Think about the assumptions that other
lecturers are making about students
and the way they learn and so on.
And you know,
what do you know with somebody in college
having some sort of critical friends
where you can run things past them.
I think it's really useful as well.
And there's lots of. There's lots
of ways to be able to collaborate.
You know, there's more.
(15:15):
I don't want to say formal or official ways,
but things like undertaking, you know,
perfect collaborative professional inquiry,
you know, and working with a colleague to
to work through a project or a problem and
and to come up with some sort of solution.
So it can be very informal as well as formal.
But I think particularly
in the college sector, we.
Maybe we need to think about a
little bit more about the role that
(15:37):
colleagues can have and how they can
influence and shape what we're doing,
and what we can learn from
our colleagues as well.
And I always think what's particularly
interesting is going to see a colleague
teach a class of students that we also
teach to see how the same students behave,
react and function.
With the same, you know, same peers
(15:58):
but in front of a different lecture.
I was like that's quite an
interesting experience to do that.
And so that would be some
advice that I would have.
I think that's great.
There's lots of different examples there.
And again,
what I'd recommend based on my own personal
learning experience of going through the
process of developing professionally for
colleagues who have been in colleges,
(16:19):
is actually treat them like students.
What I mean by that is everybody's different,
you know,
phrase I've used quite a lot through the
podcast series is now your learners.
Yeah, same.
Here it comes.
Kind of knowing your stuff, so.
Was some stuff might like a formal and rigid,
other stuff might like a more
relaxed and informal, you know.
It's, it's really important.
I think the other word,
(16:39):
which you've used quite a few times,
which again resonates with me,
is that that word perspective.
Yeah.
That's all I think is educators that
we can really encourage and we can
develop others around this to develop
their own or awareness around that term.
Perspective. Yeah.
Perspective in my head is just quite
simply how people view a situation.
(17:00):
Yeah. Yeah.
And it's incredibly powerful.
Especially when working with colleagues
around their own practice because naturally
we're very defensive and protective.
Typically as human nature of her
own practice absolutely introduce
appearing to cover conversation or to
kind of watch the God goes up naturally.
And it's about perspective.
So trust and all the other things
(17:21):
trying to build students important
to kind of build a staff because
again kind of for me on this is I
would fully echo your point around.
It's really,
really important to watch other
other teachers or lecturers.
Yeah.
And I think I've been very fortunate.
I've been kind of part of my job
to do and the challenge for me is
(17:41):
how do we develop the capacity for
more teachers and experts to do
this as part of their job because
it's just so hard to do often.
Yeah,
I I think so.
And and and that you know the requires
buy in from from colleges as well.
You know there needs to be
capacity for lectures to do that.
You know, there needs to be time
provided to do that where possible.
And it also needs to be seen as as truly
(18:02):
a developmental and learning tool.
It's not some sort of performativity measure.
And you know, I've done it
shouldn't be some line manager
that's going into or or or so on.
You know, there should be no power
relations involved or we should minimize
the power relations there if you like.
It should be purely
development developmental task.
And one of the suggestions I would have
(18:22):
if anybody's thinking about engaging
in peer observation or learning from a
peer in some sort of way is to keep it.
Forecast so perhaps you're
you're going into look at.
Interactions with students or you're
going to look at questioning or you're
looking at behavior management or you
know something really quite specific.
You're going into you.
You're not going into just look
(18:43):
at everything that's going on
because classrooms are busy places,
but you're trying to keep it quite
focused and quite and quite narrow.
And the point, Johnny,
you made a moment ago about perspective,
I think it's important we do,
we do all have this natural
inclination to get to get back.
So believe in the garage to go up
a little bit when maybe somebody
offers a different perspective.
(19:03):
Challenge it,
but we would expect I think our students
to be open and willing to be challenged.
You know,
we're promoting a questioning
mindset from students where we're
encouraging students to to be able to
see different perspectives and so on.
So in my view we've got to model
that ourselves and be seen to
(19:24):
to model that perspective.
No, I would agree with that.
And I think when we're talking about the
term of transform of learning and teaching,
these are comes from really.
The principles and difficulty is these
things are suddenly common sense,
you know, because yeah,
yeah, absolutely.
You're looking from the same thing, actually.
Why aren't we doing this?
But actually there's a number
of reasons why haven't you know,
(19:45):
because of Kevin's culture in the
past or how just how things have
been and it's it's not easy to do.
Yeah.
For a former colleague of mine,
you know,
just kind of often make reference of
things that goes on too hard to do.
Pile doesn't happen, it's a good idea.
Doesn't happen because it goes
on too hard to do pile.
Let's just get back how we've always
done it and and do what we do.
(20:05):
And it's really important that you know,
if we're going to really reflect
on the impact of our learning and
teaching either individually or
collectively mirror even at college,
right.
That will have these difficult conversations.
First look at kind of what we're doing,
we're doing it and then secondly
is to how we can evolve and how
we can develop and improve.
That's right. And it's all, you know,
you have the right and it's also about you
(20:27):
know challenging the views of students.
And I think that's something,
you know, lots of college lectures
will do all the time and that's great.
So we need to be open to have our own
views challenged sometimes and and and to
be willing to see different perspectives.
But the key thing I think is to
think about the impact of those
views on the student experience.
(20:48):
And sometime that impact isn't visible,
it might be, it might be hidden,
you know, it might be implicit.
And we're really trying to tease
that out by by collaborating with
students and talking to them,
thinking about the context and place
of learning and and and you know having
that honest and frank dialogue with
students and other people as well.
(21:10):
No, I thought that's really interestingly
and I think the other thing to to
really share is that again for those
who are concepts of this either maybe
new or or kind of kind of setting some.
Some thought to like your head is.
These are going to be exhaustive processes.
This is just part of your daily
process and part of your culture
with experience and talking of
(21:31):
building those routines and build,
building this routine as part of your
mindset when going through the planning or
the Co creation element for a new unit,
new module assessment lesson or whatever.
Is that there as well?
Yeah,
I think there's some particular things
around treating new modules or new units and.
We're going to have a chat thing.
(21:52):
There's a few things to to think about there
and so we can we can have a chat about that.
Yeah.
No, that's great.
Uh,
in terms of Spacely is really kind
of elements of of research that
kind of people could draw upon if
want to go and find that more.
There's a lot of different perspectives
around transforming teaching and
(22:13):
learning and it's something that
really over the last 30 years which
fully for 40 to 50 years now when I
think about it and that's evolving,
it's changing and and it's not
without criticism,
you know that there's always different
perspectives and and that's not to say
this is the solution to everything.
I don't think is the solution to this
one perspective and I'm obviously biased,
I particularly like it, you know,
(22:34):
I'm open to that, to that bias.
But there is a lot of,
there's a lot of electric charge.
And we can maybe just send you some
some links, particularly easily,
easily accessible.
Pieces of text and things that
people can put into practice.
I think that could be quite useful.
And I've also set up a new Twitter feed
looking at learning and teaching and
(22:57):
transformative practice and colleges.
So, so I can always share that as well.
And people can, can can, you know?
Be able to take some some articles
and resources and
things like that that are shared
but there is a lot of literature out
there and text it's just I suppose
it's just nowhere to go and and
finding something that's accessible.
Yeah. No that's great thanks.
Yeah we're absolutely share that
(23:18):
with kind of release podcast as
well and that will be kind of in
the description and I guess the
final bit one keep deal was kind of
starting this towards a close is.
As I guess consolidate some of these,
some of this discussion think right
where do I start you know maybe
kind of three or four key points
were actually this is something I
think I do but you know I want to
(23:40):
check it or I want to do more or
some other conversation with where
do I start so we can identify yeah,
sorry three or four key elements.
The first thing I would do is I would sit
and interrogate myself and say to myself,
OK, what assumptions do I make
about myself and and my approach
to teaching and learning?
What assumptions do I make about students,
(24:02):
the college and the Community?
You know what?
And really interrogate that you
really think about the assumptions
for each of those stakeholders.
I would then try and think about the,
the impact of the assumptions
that I've identified.
So you know,
if I'm just having a look at this,
I might draw some sort of mind map
to think about these assumptions.
(24:23):
I would then think about,
OK, what are they in,
what's the impact of those assumptions that
I have on students and student experience.
And then I would be thinking about,
you know,
what opportunities do I really have or what,
what opportunities do I
really provide students to?
Question the decisions that
I've made about resources or how
(24:43):
they're going to learn and so on.
You know what opportunity have
I given them to really help Co
construct what they are doing and
to be active and participants if you
like in in the in the learning and
teaching and assessment process.
And I think for me,
you know there are two really good
starting points to think about that
think that assumptions and the impact
(25:05):
and also you know really be honest
with yourself and say genuinely
what opportunities do I have,
do I give?
To to ask me questions about the
teaching learning assessment
that they do and and and really
to interrogate me on it.
I think that would be would
be a good starting point.
No, Lee, I think that's great.
I think what you've done there
is really summarize what is a
(25:26):
pretty complex topic in the end,
but also into kind of 2530 minutes of.
Yeah,
I'm going to say that like kind of
bite size information that's the
starting point for people kind of
really think what really explore.
What I'd say is this might be
the type of episode people might
listen back to you know,
twice or thrice sometimes you can
look a little snippets and they're
actual what does that mean for me
(25:47):
and how do I do it and what what
I guess is refreshing is that.
It links to other key topics explored
rather in the last session around
relationships around Doctor Ed Hall
joined us on connect interactions and
actually viewing meetings or kind of
conversation with students interactions
and kind of making those counts and
(26:07):
some of those underlying principles
within those aligned to this as well.
So again, more so for individual
singing is not a great big long
checklist of things that we have to do,
but all these things often
feed together to help us.
Develop our own practice as as a
lecturer or practitioner to to,
I guess possibly overtime make us more
(26:29):
rounded and more aware of different factors.
There's a couple of things that for me,
I'm, I'm particularly interested in
in in shoot engagement and where we.
Genuinely gets you students opportunity
to shape things and and to have a
say in decisions and a couple of
things for me stick out and sort
of hinted at this earlier and one
(26:50):
of those is around assessment.
And it comes back to the fact that
we are in a education is political
and we've got to think about
the awarding bodies and so on.
And you know there's not always
an awful lot we can do about that.
But for me what lies at the heart
or one of the things that lies at
the heart of transform teaching
learning is the idea of authentic.
Placement.
Because we already know that
(27:12):
assessment is powerful.
We know for a lot of students assessments
what they're interested that assessment is.
You know,
they want to know what they're doing.
Assessment will drive to a certain
extent what they're learning.
So if assessment does have
that powerful role,
then.
Surely there's a relationship
there for us to consider between
assessment and social justice,
(27:34):
and that for me is a really interesting idea.
And when we think about assessment,
we quite often talk in conversation
with people and students
about assessment being fair.
And that fear doesn't mean
that it should be the same.
And what I think we often get maybe
bogged down a little bit when it
comes to assessment is the procedural
(27:55):
aspects of it and and and you know
we think about what's permitted,
what is not permitted in certain
circumstances that you know we might
have a set of policies and colleges and.
Examples and so on.
You know,
you have a spec list of things
that's acceptable and not,
and I think that's something for us
to really think about and we need
(28:16):
to really think about how authentic
is our assessment approaches.
And how fair is the is the process of
assessment and I don't mean procedural there.
And remember fair doesn't necessarily
mean the same and I think that's an
interesting idea you know fairness
does not mean in all instances saying
(28:36):
this if if that makes sense and that's
that's for me personally that's quite
an interesting idea to to think about
and that's challenged quite a lot of
my own assumptions about teaching and
learning and and and I think that's that's
quite interesting you know you know if
I give you a quick example you know
when granted an extension for an assignment.
(28:57):
For example, you know,
quite often we wouldn't grant
extension for pressures of work,
for example because somebody
was having to work.
But actually, why not?
You know why,
why shouldn't we be taking into
account the fact that if somebody's
having to work or have a family
to look after and so on and or or
having to you know to work during
the night and things like that,
(29:17):
then why would we not give
them that extension.
You know we we tend to only give extensions
for example for medical reasons.
So I think there's a whole interesting
conversation there about socially just
assessment practices and policies and
for me that that's really exciting
and interesting maybe to explore.
I think that's I think it was
lined up the next.
(29:37):
Podcast or podcast later in the series.
Gonna really pick elements
of that there as well.
You're absolutely right and had a
similar conversation this morning,
not as her own fairness,
but around assessment methods,
around meeting the needs of our learners.
Where we yeah times is a perception
that is quite restrictive when
it comes to assessment,
but all of the Romans are learning
and teaching are really quite
(29:57):
open-ended and and and diverse and
meet the needs of individual learners.
Absolutely.
And and I think you know it
started the start of modular,
started a unit,
one of the things we probably all
do and you know I'm guilty of it as
well as we make sure slide with the
learning objectives for example.
But that's a very sort of transmission
or almost like a contract between the
(30:18):
learning objectives and assessment.
That's how that's been communicated
or that's the assumption or view
that's being promoted.
But we really need to if we're
going to engage students with
learning and with assessment.
And so on.
Then we need,
we need to really engage them
and and that conversation about
about their learning and with
learning outcomes and so on.
(30:40):
But I think that is a whole
other conversation around that
something that's quite interesting.
No, I think it's fascinating.
It's really interesting because.
Whilst we're talking the wrong
transform of learning and teaching,
there are other factors out of our
control which can then can negate
from the positive impact that
has been made across different
elements of learning teaching.
So I totally get it,
(31:00):
it's a huge a huge element.
Um,
but I'm conscious around this topic
today and I think the more I'm
thinking about this now you know,
because for people listen,
we don't pre script these conversations
about what we're couple questions
and where we go and I'm thinking
well actually I'm a lecturer.
Where do I start my lasting bit of advice?
(31:21):
On nourishment is one of the kind
of former podcast guest kind of
shared instead of having takeaways.
But what's your nourishment?
Nourishment for me is to get
something small in this topic,
focus on that and then build
and develop them.
Because if you try and tackle all of
your teaching practice within one go
as you said about teaching observation.
(31:43):
So crazy. Yeah.
And I think,
you know just to to add to that final
point is we're all starting with
the with this at different points.
You know,
we need to recognize some of us maybe
adopting some of these practices already,
others maybe not,
not so, not as much. So.
So we need to build on what we already know,
what we've experienced and that
will be different for every,
for everybody else listening absolutely.
(32:05):
No grip what that's fantastically
really interesting conversation.
I said I'm still thinking you
probably can tell hesitant onto my
speech because I'm thinking and
processing different elements of
this and I'm sure the listeners are.
So thank you for your time and some
really interesting perspectives to chat.
I've got another others interesting
kind of thirsty seeing some of
the elements of kind of research
associated with this.
(32:25):
But then secondly,
maybe further conversations around
the assessment and other elements
of teaching practice and to consider
there so late thank you for your time
and enjoy your weekend it comes.
Yeah, you too Johnny.
Thank you very much.
That's the.
About.
Hello and welcome to the second episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast for
the 2021-2022 academic session.
The purpose of the podcast is to bring
the force and key topics of conversation
in relation to learning and teaching,
to discuss and break down aspects
of practice, and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how we can
integrate these into our daily practice.
Today I'm delighted to be joined by Doctor
(00:27):
Lee cuts from Strathclyde University.
Lee, welcome. How are you? Hi, Johnny.
I'm good, thanks and thanks for inviting
me to come and chat to you today.
You're very welcome. Delight.
You can join on a Friday afternoon as
soon as Shane for a change, you know?
So I appreciate your time,
appreciate your input.
And today we'll be talking around the topic
of transformative learning and teaching.
So I've got no doubt.
(00:48):
So Melissa, we think, well,
what do you mean by that?
So yeah,
probably a good place to kick us off.
So kind of what is meant and can in
your interpretation of that term,
so transformative learning and teaching.
Yeah, I think you're right.
People can interpret what that term means
in different ways and for different people.
Transformative teaching and learning
does mean different things.
(01:09):
And really what what I want to talk
about today and share today is my
take on and how I understand it.
But for different people it will
mean different things.
And I think, you know,
a good starting point is really just to
say it's about making a positive difference.
You know,
it's about making a positive
difference to people's lives.
And you might say, well.
All education needs to do that,
(01:30):
but this is a particular perspective and.
Or as a particular way,
I feel like I've been able to do
that so before before I start going
to some of the the details about it,
I think it's worthwhile just talking
a little about my own experience
and where some of this.
View that I have has come from so
I'm spending a significant amount
(01:51):
of time in college myself.
I did that and then see and then HNC
and when I was younger when I was 1516.
And so college for me was was my
route to get into into university and
I qualified as a secondary school
teacher and I stayed in school
sector for about three years before
(02:12):
moving into college and I worked
in a college for about 10 years.
One of the colleges in Glasgow.
If the latter part of that 10 years I.
Secular managed that particular section.
So I I had quite a lot of experience
in working with college learners and
the challenges facing the sector and so on.
A couple of years ago I had the
(02:33):
opportunity to move into higher education.
So I I did that.
I complete that.
I'm asked doesn't complete a doctorate
and moved into to start clients.
Over the last couple of years,
my my thinking has really been informed
by discussions with colleagues,
integration and reading,
with academic writing,
and also having quite a lot of time
to think about my own experience in
college as a student and also a lecture.
(02:55):
And I think this is a really
interesting time to be talking about
transformative learning and teaching,
because now is the time.
Of of changes, period of change
and annual sector over the last 10
years has seen significant change.
But we are in a situation to an
extent at the moment where we have
an unpredictable future with COVID,
with changes in technology and so on.
(03:16):
We've changed about happened.
And next 18 next Gen.
net, net skills we promote and so on.
Again, this is it.
This is a period of change and uncertainty.
So for me,
transformative learning teaching
is about challenging and moving
away from certain mindsets,
(03:37):
perspectives,
beliefs and assumptions that
might be problematic.
And it's about trying to be explicitly
aware of the assumptions that we have,
but how they make us see and
understand and act in the world.
Now that's not to say the assumptions
(03:58):
we have are not valid or are not right,
and so on,
but it's about explicitly
acknowledging that there are always
other ways to view something.
And it's about taking those
assumptions and saying to yourself,
well, that's one way of seeing it,
but what about this perspective or
what about another perspective?
And then making decisions and
(04:21):
making choices about how to behave,
how to act based on that new or
adapted understanding of how
we see or view something.
And it ties really well and with the
social justice and sustainability agenda,
it promotes an activist stance.
(04:41):
And I know a lot of people might
think and I certainly thought
when I heard that term activist,
you know, that sort of.
Conjured up all sorts of images in my
mind and, and that's not what I mean.
An activist stance is really having
this commitment to social justice,
challenging certain assumptions which
can make people and feel feel uncomfortable.
Sometimes it's about asking questions,
(05:04):
but using that information to have
a positive impact on learners.
And that's the key thing here.
And but before we can do that,
we have to think about where
learning takes place.
And you know,
one of the questions that I would
ask a lot of college lecturers is
have you really spent a lot of
time thinking about your college
(05:24):
and its community?
And I don't just mean,
you know,
that the learners that go there
or the Sid area that it's in,
but I mean things like the
political stances of the area,
economic and assumptions
we make about the area,
the social assumptions we make.
The ideological assumptions we make,
you know,
release spending time and interrogating the
(05:46):
assumptions that we make about our colleges,
our communities,
learners and even ourselves.
And probably a lot of
people don't spend a lot
of time really thinking about that and
also thinking about the impact of those
assumptions on the learner experience.
And a lot of the views that us as individuals
(06:06):
have will come from our own experience.
Of course they do. They'll come from.
Things that we've seen other people
do and they'll come from views that
we've we've obtained from reading,
from talking to people,
from experience, and so on.
But there's always an opportunity to
challenge those and to think about,
well, I hold this view,
(06:27):
what is the impact of that view on
my learners and what are what are
the other ways of seeing the view
that I have and could that be a
more positive outcome for learners?
So I know spoken quite a lot there,
but it's it's,
it's not really easy to define I guess.
So I suppose if I was going to summarize
(06:47):
I would I would be saying in my
eyes it's about making a difference.
It's about really taking time out to
examine assumptions and the beliefs
that we have and thinking about what
do those beliefs and assumptions
and views mean for our learners,
and are there other ways of viewing them?
(07:09):
So it does not give you a bit of
an insight that that's a very
extensive introduction, you know,
I think it's really good.
I think it gives a wider context
and then narrows it down,
but kind of gives a little.
A little tough.
You are a number of different elements
that kind of start to unpick that
which I think is really useful.
But I know I've got no doubt
(07:31):
someone actually kind of thing,
yeah, I do that great.
You know and I think the purpose
of conversation is absolutely
is happening in education.
Absolutely.
It's important for everybody to consider
how we do that and certainly this
never stops versus continuing evolving.
We can include their own start, you know,
it's a time of opportunity for change.
(07:51):
Right now there's always an
opportunity for change,
but being ignited because of
recent circumstances, yeah, yeah,
I think it's really important,
really quite exciting there as well, so.
I think you're right this week with,
you know, we're still going through a
period of extensive change and we're
about to go through further change
particularly in the college sector with.
No mandatory registration each and next
(08:14):
generation changes in SQL and so on.
You know, we're about to see another
significant period of change over
the next 5 to 10 years and and I
suppose this is an alternative
approach and to embracing that change.
Yeah, and I think.
We are and we are in kind of
going through a lot of changes.
Absolutely. Systems are changing,
(08:34):
systems around us are changing.
But actually our role effectively
hasn't changed.
Absolutely not.
I know you're saying has,
but yeah and I think what's important for.
For people involved in education to really
remember is actually what our role here
is to educate learners in front of us.
Let's prepare them for the next steps of the
workforce or wherever they wish to go to.
But yeah,
those natural things that are evolving
(08:56):
around the periphery or a bit more
substantial than our rules do,
impact on that. Absolutely.
Yeah. So come back,
the topic of transforming learning,
teaching and nose is all part of the topic,
by the way,
is I've got no other people think,
right,
either I do it or what does it look like?
So you can.
You've teased through a couple of
elements there in terms of looking
(09:16):
at well and takes place and looking
to learners what's the advice or
thoughts of using relation to that.
So I think there's there's lots
of different ways we can approach
this but I think the the first
thing we have to think about and
and recognise is that.
All classrooms,
regardless of whether you know
they're called setting a school
setting and education setting.
(09:38):
All classrooms are sites
of power and privilege.
And you know,
that's not something we need technology.
And we also have to acknowledge
that all education is political,
you know, the decisions that's
being made about education,
what we teach, how we teach and so on.
And there's a political motive there.
And,
and I think I would say to the first
thing I would say to people is we
(09:58):
need to recognize that and we need
to think about and be very open and
honest in the conversations we have
with students and with colleagues
about the decisions we've made.
So, for example,
if we were talking about a particular
textbook or a particular resource that
we're going to use with students,
we would be thinking about, well,
(10:18):
what's made us choose that book?
That by choosing that resource for that book,
who are we potentially excluding?
You know, what assumptions are we making?
What values are are we promoting by
using that resource and what views
are we promoting and therefore what
are we potentially excluding from
(10:39):
using that particular resource?
And if we think about an assessment
task that we
get learners to do, for example, will,
what are the assumptions we've made
when we've been designing that task,
we've been creating about it.
What's LED us to make the decisions
about that task that we have
and but who are we potentially
(11:00):
excluding by making those decisions?
So it's about taking a step
back and thinking about, OK,
I've made this decision.
About the resource,
about assessment and about student or so on,
I've made an assumption.
What are the other ways of looking at it?
You know, who am I potentially excluding?
What implicit assumptions have I made?
(11:21):
And sometimes we might not be
able to see those for ourselves,
sometimes being to ask students,
you know, what assumptions have I made
when I've been doing this with you?
We might need to ask colleagues,
we need to ask other people,
and that can be uncomfortable sometimes.
But if we really are to transform things
and have a real commitment to social justice,
(11:42):
and that's what this is about,
really.
Then we need to be able to have sometimes
uncomfortable situations or conversations
so that we can introduce positive change.
No,
I think it's really some point Sir and.
I don't know what a conversation the
other day about a different topic,
but I think it comes back
to routines and habits.
(12:02):
I've got no doubt.
Again, I'm going back to some
colleagues I used to work with.
I think one how long did
after every textbook.
It's not necessarily about being literal
without going through that process and
thinking and knowing your learners
and developing that understanding,
that mindset around that,
the learning and teaching practices
that we have and the approach that we
have and resources that we utilize.
It's that consideration, isn't it?
(12:23):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
And and it's about.
Really taking students as an as,
as partners Co constructors
of their learning.
So students have a big role in
this and we've spoken a lot about
the lecturers assumptions and
the lecturers views and so on.
But students can give you a
huge insight into that.
They might be able to tell you
(12:45):
the assumptions that they think
you have and you might not know,
you might not recognize them yourself.
And it's really about having
students being the core constructor
and the resources that are used,
the tasks that are.
Button you have everything about their
learning says about them and their
their goals and their aspirations,
engaging them in all aspects
(13:06):
of making decisions.
And if we,
if we truly are learner
centered or student centered.
And students should be
involved in every decision,
every decision that's
made about their learning,
about how they've assessed
about their journey and so on.
They're also right there.
Yep. No, I would agree.
And I think the other element you mentioned
(13:28):
is really important to engage with is PS,
you know,
because.
You know.
Lecturing can be quite isolating
rule you know non more so now
than ever where might be working
in an online world or a more you
know there's different terms kind of
band around this kind of what's class
whenever remote because we're engaged
but actually can feel quite remote
quite isolating but even back in
the pre code will collaboration with
(13:49):
peers is really important especially
within this topic there as well.
So what are your thoughts on that
or what are you I guess maybe even
tips or advice as well for colleagues
around that I think I absolutely
agree collaboration is crucial and
and that partnership with colleagues.
Is is. More fundamental and I,
I know it all takes time, you know,
I appreciate that and you know
(14:10):
we're all busy people,
we've all got things to do,
but we have to recognize the benefits
or potential benefits of collaboration
not just for ourselves but for
our colleagues and also students.
Now collaboration could,
could mean a number of things that
might might involve sitting down
with a colleague for half an hour
and talking through what they're
doing the students while they're
(14:31):
doing it in a certain way, you know,
thinking about some of the some of
the decisions that they've made.
But one of the things I would
encourage elections to do is is
to go and see other people teach.
You know,
actually go and observe other
lectures and and other disciplines.
For example,
learn or or view what they are doing.
Think about how that relates
(14:52):
to your practice.
Think about the assumptions that other
lecturers are making about students
and the way they learn and so on.
And you know,
what do you know with somebody in college
having some sort of critical friends
where you can run things past them.
I think it's really useful as well.
And there's lots of. There's lots
of ways to be able to collaborate.
You know, there's more.
(15:15):
I don't want to say formal or official ways,
but things like undertaking, you know,
perfect collaborative professional inquiry,
you know, and working with a colleague to
to work through a project or a problem and
and to come up with some sort of solution.
So it can be very informal as well as formal.
But I think particularly
in the college sector, we.
Maybe we need to think about a
little bit more about the role that
(15:37):
colleagues can have and how they can
influence and shape what we're doing,
and what we can learn from
our colleagues as well.
And I always think what's particularly
interesting is going to see a colleague
teach a class of students that we also
teach to see how the same students behave,
react and function.
With the same, you know, same peers
(15:58):
but in front of a different lecture.
I was like that's quite an
interesting experience to do that.
And so that would be some
advice that I would have.
I think that's great.
There's lots of different examples there.
And again,
what I'd recommend based on my own personal
learning experience of going through the
process of developing professionally for
colleagues who have been in colleges,
(16:19):
is actually treat them like students.
What I mean by that is everybody's different,
you know,
phrase I've used quite a lot through the
podcast series is now your learners.
Yeah, same.
Here it comes.
Kind of knowing your stuff, so.
Was some stuff might like a formal and rigid,
other stuff might like a more
relaxed and informal, you know.
It's, it's really important.
I think the other word,
(16:39):
which you've used quite a few times,
which again resonates with me,
is that that word perspective.
Yeah.
That's all I think is educators that
we can really encourage and we can
develop others around this to develop
their own or awareness around that term.
Perspective. Yeah.
Perspective in my head is just quite
simply how people view a situation.
(17:00):
Yeah. Yeah.
And it's incredibly powerful.
Especially when working with colleagues
around their own practice because naturally
we're very defensive and protective.
Typically as human nature of her
own practice absolutely introduce
appearing to cover conversation or to
kind of watch the God goes up naturally.
And it's about perspective.
So trust and all the other things
(17:21):
trying to build students important
to kind of build a staff because
again kind of for me on this is I
would fully echo your point around.
It's really,
really important to watch other
other teachers or lecturers.
Yeah.
And I think I've been very fortunate.
I've been kind of part of my job
to do and the challenge for me is
(17:41):
how do we develop the capacity for
more teachers and experts to do
this as part of their job because
it's just so hard to do often.
Yeah,
I I think so.
And and and that you know the requires
buy in from from colleges as well.
You know there needs to be
capacity for lectures to do that.
You know, there needs to be time
provided to do that where possible.
And it also needs to be seen as as truly
(18:02):
a developmental and learning tool.
It's not some sort of performativity measure.
And you know, I've done it
shouldn't be some line manager
that's going into or or or so on.
You know, there should be no power
relations involved or we should minimize
the power relations there if you like.
It should be purely
development developmental task.
And one of the suggestions I would have
(18:22):
if anybody's thinking about engaging
in peer observation or learning from a
peer in some sort of way is to keep it.
Forecast so perhaps you're
you're going into look at.
Interactions with students or you're
going to look at questioning or you're
looking at behavior management or you
know something really quite specific.
You're going into you.
You're not going into just look
(18:43):
at everything that's going on
because classrooms are busy places,
but you're trying to keep it quite
focused and quite and quite narrow.
And the point, Johnny,
you made a moment ago about perspective,
I think it's important we do,
we do all have this natural
inclination to get to get back.
So believe in the garage to go up
a little bit when maybe somebody
offers a different perspective.
(19:03):
Challenge it,
but we would expect I think our students
to be open and willing to be challenged.
You know,
we're promoting a questioning
mindset from students where we're
encouraging students to to be able to
see different perspectives and so on.
So in my view we've got to model
that ourselves and be seen to
(19:24):
to model that perspective.
No, I would agree with that.
And I think when we're talking about the
term of transform of learning and teaching,
these are comes from really.
The principles and difficulty is these
things are suddenly common sense,
you know, because yeah,
yeah, absolutely.
You're looking from the same thing, actually.
Why aren't we doing this?
But actually there's a number
of reasons why haven't you know,
(19:45):
because of Kevin's culture in the
past or how just how things have
been and it's it's not easy to do.
Yeah.
For a former colleague of mine,
you know,
just kind of often make reference of
things that goes on too hard to do.
Pile doesn't happen, it's a good idea.
Doesn't happen because it goes
on too hard to do pile.
Let's just get back how we've always
done it and and do what we do.
(20:05):
And it's really important that you know,
if we're going to really reflect
on the impact of our learning and
teaching either individually or
collectively mirror even at college,
right.
That will have these difficult conversations.
First look at kind of what we're doing,
we're doing it and then secondly
is to how we can evolve and how
we can develop and improve.
That's right. And it's all, you know,
you have the right and it's also about you
(20:27):
know challenging the views of students.
And I think that's something,
you know, lots of college lectures
will do all the time and that's great.
So we need to be open to have our own
views challenged sometimes and and and to
be willing to see different perspectives.
But the key thing I think is to
think about the impact of those
views on the student experience.
(20:48):
And sometime that impact isn't visible,
it might be, it might be hidden,
you know, it might be implicit.
And we're really trying to tease
that out by by collaborating with
students and talking to them,
thinking about the context and place
of learning and and and you know having
that honest and frank dialogue with
students and other people as well.
(21:10):
No, I thought that's really interestingly
and I think the other thing to to
really share is that again for those
who are concepts of this either maybe
new or or kind of kind of setting some.
Some thought to like your head is.
These are going to be exhaustive processes.
This is just part of your daily
process and part of your culture
with experience and talking of
(21:31):
building those routines and build,
building this routine as part of your
mindset when going through the planning or
the Co creation element for a new unit,
new module assessment lesson or whatever.
Is that there as well?
Yeah,
I think there's some particular things
around treating new modules or new units and.
We're going to have a chat thing.
(21:52):
There's a few things to to think about there
and so we can we can have a chat about that.
Yeah.
No, that's great.
Uh,
in terms of Spacely is really kind
of elements of of research that
kind of people could draw upon if
want to go and find that more.
There's a lot of different perspectives
around transforming teaching and
(22:13):
learning and it's something that
really over the last 30 years which
fully for 40 to 50 years now when I
think about it and that's evolving,
it's changing and and it's not
without criticism,
you know that there's always different
perspectives and and that's not to say
this is the solution to everything.
I don't think is the solution to this
one perspective and I'm obviously biased,
I particularly like it, you know,
(22:34):
I'm open to that, to that bias.
But there is a lot of,
there's a lot of electric charge.
And we can maybe just send you some
some links, particularly easily,
easily accessible.
Pieces of text and things that
people can put into practice.
I think that could be quite useful.
And I've also set up a new Twitter feed
looking at learning and teaching and
(22:57):
transformative practice and colleges.
So, so I can always share that as well.
And people can, can can, you know?
Be able to take some some articles
and resources and
things like that that are shared
but there is a lot of literature out
there and text it's just I suppose
it's just nowhere to go and and
finding something that's accessible.
Yeah. No that's great thanks.
Yeah we're absolutely share that
(23:18):
with kind of release podcast as
well and that will be kind of in
the description and I guess the
final bit one keep deal was kind of
starting this towards a close is.
As I guess consolidate some of these,
some of this discussion think right
where do I start you know maybe
kind of three or four key points
were actually this is something I
think I do but you know I want to
(23:40):
check it or I want to do more or
some other conversation with where
do I start so we can identify yeah,
sorry three or four key elements.
The first thing I would do is I would sit
and interrogate myself and say to myself,
OK, what assumptions do I make
about myself and and my approach
to teaching and learning?
What assumptions do I make about students,
(24:02):
the college and the Community?
You know what?
And really interrogate that you
really think about the assumptions
for each of those stakeholders.
I would then try and think about the,
the impact of the assumptions
that I've identified.
So you know,
if I'm just having a look at this,
I might draw some sort of mind map
to think about these assumptions.
(24:23):
I would then think about,
OK, what are they in,
what's the impact of those assumptions that
I have on students and student experience.
And then I would be thinking about,
you know,
what opportunities do I really have or what,
what opportunities do I
really provide students to?
Question the decisions that
I've made about resources or how
(24:43):
they're going to learn and so on.
You know what opportunity have
I given them to really help Co
construct what they are doing and
to be active and participants if you
like in in the in the learning and
teaching and assessment process.
And I think for me,
you know there are two really good
starting points to think about that
think that assumptions and the impact
(25:05):
and also you know really be honest
with yourself and say genuinely
what opportunities do I have,
do I give?
To to ask me questions about the
teaching learning assessment
that they do and and and really
to interrogate me on it.
I think that would be would
be a good starting point.
No, Lee, I think that's great.
I think what you've done there
is really summarize what is a
(25:26):
pretty complex topic in the end,
but also into kind of 2530 minutes of.
Yeah,
I'm going to say that like kind of
bite size information that's the
starting point for people kind of
really think what really explore.
What I'd say is this might be
the type of episode people might
listen back to you know,
twice or thrice sometimes you can
look a little snippets and they're
actual what does that mean for me
(25:47):
and how do I do it and what what
I guess is refreshing is that.
It links to other key topics explored
rather in the last session around
relationships around Doctor Ed Hall
joined us on connect interactions and
actually viewing meetings or kind of
conversation with students interactions
and kind of making those counts and
(26:07):
some of those underlying principles
within those aligned to this as well.
So again, more so for individual
singing is not a great big long
checklist of things that we have to do,
but all these things often
feed together to help us.
Develop our own practice as as a
lecturer or practitioner to to,
I guess possibly overtime make us more
(26:29):
rounded and more aware of different factors.
There's a couple of things that for me,
I'm, I'm particularly interested in
in in shoot engagement and where we.
Genuinely gets you students opportunity
to shape things and and to have a
say in decisions and a couple of
things for me stick out and sort
of hinted at this earlier and one
(26:50):
of those is around assessment.
And it comes back to the fact that
we are in a education is political
and we've got to think about
the awarding bodies and so on.
And you know there's not always
an awful lot we can do about that.
But for me what lies at the heart
or one of the things that lies at
the heart of transform teaching
learning is the idea of authentic.
Placement.
Because we already know that
(27:12):
assessment is powerful.
We know for a lot of students assessments
what they're interested that assessment is.
You know,
they want to know what they're doing.
Assessment will drive to a certain
extent what they're learning.
So if assessment does have
that powerful role,
then.
Surely there's a relationship
there for us to consider between
assessment and social justice,
(27:34):
and that for me is a really interesting idea.
And when we think about assessment,
we quite often talk in conversation
with people and students
about assessment being fair.
And that fear doesn't mean
that it should be the same.
And what I think we often get maybe
bogged down a little bit when it
comes to assessment is the procedural
(27:55):
aspects of it and and and you know
we think about what's permitted,
what is not permitted in certain
circumstances that you know we might
have a set of policies and colleges and.
Examples and so on.
You know,
you have a spec list of things
that's acceptable and not,
and I think that's something for us
to really think about and we need
(28:16):
to really think about how authentic
is our assessment approaches.
And how fair is the is the process of
assessment and I don't mean procedural there.
And remember fair doesn't necessarily
mean the same and I think that's an
interesting idea you know fairness
does not mean in all instances saying
(28:36):
this if if that makes sense and that's
that's for me personally that's quite
an interesting idea to to think about
and that's challenged quite a lot of
my own assumptions about teaching and
learning and and and I think that's that's
quite interesting you know you know if
I give you a quick example you know
when granted an extension for an assignment.
(28:57):
For example, you know,
quite often we wouldn't grant
extension for pressures of work,
for example because somebody
was having to work.
But actually, why not?
You know why,
why shouldn't we be taking into
account the fact that if somebody's
having to work or have a family
to look after and so on and or or
having to you know to work during
the night and things like that,
(29:17):
then why would we not give
them that extension.
You know we we tend to only give extensions
for example for medical reasons.
So I think there's a whole interesting
conversation there about socially just
assessment practices and policies and
for me that that's really exciting
and interesting maybe to explore.
I think that's I think it was
lined up the next.
(29:37):
Podcast or podcast later in the series.
Gonna really pick elements
of that there as well.
You're absolutely right and had a
similar conversation this morning,
not as her own fairness,
but around assessment methods,
around meeting the needs of our learners.
Where we yeah times is a perception
that is quite restrictive when
it comes to assessment,
but all of the Romans are learning
and teaching are really quite
(29:57):
open-ended and and and diverse and
meet the needs of individual learners.
Absolutely.
And and I think you know it
started the start of modular,
started a unit,
one of the things we probably all
do and you know I'm guilty of it as
well as we make sure slide with the
learning objectives for example.
But that's a very sort of transmission
or almost like a contract between the
(30:18):
learning objectives and assessment.
That's how that's been communicated
or that's the assumption or view
that's being promoted.
But we really need to if we're
going to engage students with
learning and with assessment.
And so on.
Then we need,
we need to really engage them
and and that conversation about
about their learning and with
learning outcomes and so on.
(30:40):
But I think that is a whole
other conversation around that
something that's quite interesting.
No, I think it's fascinating.
It's really interesting because.
Whilst we're talking the wrong
transform of learning and teaching,
there are other factors out of our
control which can then can negate
from the positive impact that
has been made across different
elements of learning teaching.
So I totally get it,
(31:00):
it's a huge a huge element.
Um,
but I'm conscious around this topic
today and I think the more I'm
thinking about this now you know,
because for people listen,
we don't pre script these conversations
about what we're couple questions
and where we go and I'm thinking
well actually I'm a lecturer.
Where do I start my lasting bit of advice?
(31:21):
On nourishment is one of the kind
of former podcast guest kind of
shared instead of having takeaways.
But what's your nourishment?
Nourishment for me is to get
something small in this topic,
focus on that and then build
and develop them.
Because if you try and tackle all of
your teaching practice within one go
as you said about teaching observation.
(31:43):
So crazy. Yeah.
And I think,
you know just to to add to that final
point is we're all starting with
the with this at different points.
You know,
we need to recognize some of us maybe
adopting some of these practices already,
others maybe not,
not so, not as much. So.
So we need to build on what we already know,
what we've experienced and that
will be different for every,
for everybody else listening absolutely.
(32:05):
No grip what that's fantastically
really interesting conversation.
I said I'm still thinking you
probably can tell hesitant onto my
speech because I'm thinking and
processing different elements of
this and I'm sure the listeners are.
So thank you for your time and some
really interesting perspectives to chat.
I've got another others interesting
kind of thirsty seeing some of
the elements of kind of research
associated with this.
(32:25):
But then secondly,
maybe further conversations around
the assessment and other elements
of teaching practice and to consider
there so late thank you for your time
and enjoy your weekend it comes.
Yeah, you too Johnny.
Thank you very much.
That's the.
About.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com