November 10, 2021 • 30 mins
In this episode, we talk to Martin McGuire, WorldSkills UK Director, Scotland. Martin describes how regional, national and international competition, can raise standards in vocational education, and by embracing the values and ethos of WorldSkills, we can have a positive impact on students and the development of their skills.
- WorldSkills UK website
- WorldSkills Kazan 2019 (YouTube video, 2m 27s)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
Hello welcome to the latest episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast.
Purpose of this podcast is bring the
four some key topics of conversation
and relation to learning and teaching
to discuss breakdown aspects of
practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to
integrate these into our daily practice.
Today I'm delighted to join
my Martin McGuire,
Worldskills UK director for Scotland,
(00:27):
and we look at the world skills.
Martin, good morning, how are you?
Good morning, Johnny.
Yeah, I'm good. Thanks.
Well, thanks for joining me this morning.
And obviously it's the top of we
support them quite a bit and I
think we kind of really interesting
conversation for others to hear.
So I think we need to kick off I
guess for those movies that aren't
aware around what World Skills
UK are kind of what they do.
If you don't mind providing
(00:48):
a bit of a bit of context,
we'll kind of take it from there.
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Well what are Skills UK is the
is the overarching body for the
countries within the UK to to
compete and to be part of the World
Skills International Network.
Um,
part of the the What the World
(01:09):
Skills UK engages in is organizing
the regional and the national
skills competitions in the UK.
But we also play a part in.
Access and international best
practice as well as the main coins
yet to to that low skills movement.
The world goes you care organization
(01:30):
also selects the the UK team that
will take part in the the biannual
Skills Olympics that takes place
every two years and also the EUR
that take place each other years.
It's about like it's about like
the football you've got the EUR
one year and the the the world's
the next so so that's part and
parcel of of what we do at World
(01:51):
Skills UK also since the pandemic.
Of diversified quite a bit as well
around um because primarily because
we couldn't stage a a big national
competition in Birmingham as we
normally do with 70,000 people coming
through that over over three days.
So we've diversified into looking
(02:12):
at more online activity through our
careers advocacy and also how we
deliver our excellence programs as well.
So,
so quite a chef in the last year and a half,
but I think when.
That that that's been fairly
successful as well Johnny no fantastic
that's gonna really interesting.
I think it'd be good to start with
(02:33):
you know the the competitions first
and foremost you know so obviously
after experience of this kind of
with with students with with kind of
teachers and I've worked with in the past.
But in terms of the competitions
can you tell us what but what
they are and how many of them are
there what sort of disciplines and
kind of what does that mean.
Yeah, the the competitions themselves,
there's there's about 60 odd
(02:55):
vocational areas that that.
You can compete and in those frameworks
that that that sat there and that
have devised an international level.
Um, and what takes place here in the UK
is that we have regional competitions
whereby lectures you know can enter
(03:16):
students into that competition in
their in their chosen vocational
area and then if they're successful
at a regional level they'll get the
opportunity to compete in national.
And that up until now has has
been been a Birmingham,
NEC where students would be down
to that event and that's that's
a fantastic occasion as I said.
(03:36):
But there's there's there's 71,000
people come through that over that
three day period because it also
is a a careers event as well.
And young people and their parents
would get the opportunity to
come through and see skills uh,
you know,
skills actually in action if you
like you know.
But when you when you arrive there,
it's just that whole wow factor of
(03:57):
seeing such a vast area of space but
filled with young people delivering
skills to to the very best standard.
Build that sprinklers or joining also
hairdressers or beauty therapists
or CAD engineers or whatever.
You know it's just a fantastic
experience to go there and and and
(04:17):
just see these really really high
level of of of skills taking place and
young people you know participating
and not only competing but actually
showing off that the skills that
they have and the level that they
can work to so that competition
takes place and then young people.
Um successful mayor get the opportunity
(04:39):
to enter into the squad for the UK
team and hopefully they they make
that team and and go and take part
in the international competition.
Then the next international
competition is in Shanghai next year.
And the last one,
the two police was in 2019 in Kazan,
Russia,
and that was really lucky to to get to
(05:01):
that and it was an incredible experience.
Just you know the the there's plenty
of videos on YouTube over if anybody
gets the chance I would recommend
that they take a look because not
only is it a really fantastic the
export of of skills but it's just
a fantastic experience for young
people to go there and you know it
was in Ruben Kazan the football teams
(05:23):
stadium that's for the the opening
and closing ceremonies took place
40,000 people there President Putin,
the law you know it was just an
incredible experience but also I think.
Just a celebration of of skills and so,
so, yeah, you know, as I say,
you know,
we have young people from Scotland to
(05:43):
start off in the referee college with
the lecturer putting them forward for
a regional competition and all of a sudden,
you know, they're,
you know,
they're participating in Kazan and
in an international competition.
And coming back,
I have to say with,
you know,
we had some success there with five members
from Scotland as part of the UK
team and two of them come back
(06:03):
with medallions of excellence,
which was. Incredible. So.
So yeah so that that's the kind
of that's the format and that's
that's the opportunities that are
there for for young people and in
Scotland to take part think that's
fantastic and and again for those
that might be listening haven't
seen the the breath competitions.
The first thing I would suggest to
do we kind of go and you know Google
have a look on the world's website
(06:24):
they list all different competitions
there and as I kind of alluded to it
start I've had experience an issue
with fitness trainer competition
where we had our finalists going
out the Bernie C and that was just
fantastic they absolutely loved this.
And it did wonders for their career
because obviously the personal
training world, for example,
it's all about kind of building your
own profile and on confidence and this,
this, this, this type of aspects.
And again linked to that one,
(06:45):
there was a lot of support there
for the learners.
And then in a second college we had
a roofing student who kind of got the
gold medal in England and he went
because I think potentially as well,
you know.
So anyway,
it's a fantastic experience for
students to get involved when
and involved with rather.
And often, I guess from my own experience.
Other lecturers was out to the
sports department actually how
(07:06):
do I celebrate my students?
How do I provide some competition
for my students?
Well, this is a ready made example where,
where, where that can be provided, you know.
So it's a fantastic opportunity and
I think the key bit you mentioned
is skills development through
the pandemic and post pandemic.
You know there's a lot of the
narrative is around or the future
of our economy is built upon skills.
(07:27):
Yeah,
it will be fair to see this from kind of ohh.
This is just what we do is lectures anyway.
You know,
we developed the skills of our
students and their vocation to
help them progress the industry,
but this is really an opportunity
to to give students that opportunity
to develop their skills and compete
against other people within their discipline.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're right.
(07:48):
I mean the competition as a means to
an end is about raising the profile
but also about allowing young people to,
to,
to develop their skill and to try and
be the best that they can be in that,
in that skill.
And and if we can,
if we can you know permeate,
permeate across the organization
then that that's a really good thing as well.
(08:11):
And you know some people are a bit
reluctant to go into competition
and for some people it's just not
for them at all and that that.
That's fine.
However,
what we found,
and I'm talking about from my
own college experience is that
when you do have lecturers, for instance,
who are involved in whether it be
regional or national competitions,
(08:33):
what they can bring back to the college
and to to then spread with their peers
is fantastic as well because they're
getting the opportunity to work with
people out with their organization to
to see the best practice that's there.
To learn from them,
to understand what the latest techniques,
uh in in the chosen vocational
(08:53):
area that they're working in,
what industry wants and to bring that back
into the college is a fantastic advantage
as well from from taking part in these,
these competitions.
And again from a personal development
perspective for lecturers,
that's really good as well because it means
that they're at the top of their game.
(09:13):
It means that they're,
they're working with the very,
very best in their field.
And that knowledge and understanding that
they get that they can bring back to their
their own workshop classroom environment.
So.
So there is a there is a kind of win win
for everyone there and also think that that
that you know it's good for the college.
You know the college you know is
working at a particular level with
(09:35):
you know within a a skills discipline
then industry recognizes that,
local industry recognizes that and and
there are there are spin offs for the
college as well if they're working to
those standards and that's recognized.
Because of the the partnerships that
they can then engage in with industry.
So.
So yeah I don't I don't see
any negatives in it.
I have to say sorry you know no I
(09:58):
think absolutely right a phrase which
I've you know came across throughout
my career in colleges and I kind of
overuse consciously is that good daily
practice and everything you've just said
there comes back to that you know so,
so naturally you know and this
happens without the competitions
as well but it's a useful tool
to to develop that awareness and
breadth and I know we've kind of.
(10:19):
Into William terms of World Skills,
International look map,
international standards
benchmark and sharing,
best practice and elements
say that there as well.
There's actually if we collectively across
colleges and workforce can continue to
to always strive to be better and kind
of making sure that the skills develop.
We we instill within our learners,
within our our daily practice is
(10:39):
to a certain standard and that
will only benefit ourselves,
our students,
our industry and our kind of relationships.
Well, good,
Ian.
One of the the things that that, that,
that, that really encouraged me to get
involved more with the World Skills
(10:59):
Movement was the fact that we were
talking about these 60 odd vocational
areas that they currently work in.
The frameworks that occupies those standards
and the frameworks for those areas are
refreshed and updated on a 2 year basis.
And what happens is that when these
world competitions take place,
(11:20):
once the competition is over,
the experts stay on and and they get
together and they look at the framework.
And they look at what's currently
happening worldwide in that particular
discipline and they all day and the
refresh and they do that in conjunction
with international standards,
but also with the industry input as well.
(11:40):
And once those are agreed then
of the seminatore across those
countries again for people to use.
And to me that that is such an
important facet of World Skills
International because it means that
that very young people are are working.
To those standards saying they're working
to the most up-to-date standards in
(12:02):
their area that they possibly can be.
And I think that's really,
really important for for us here in Scotland,
not only for for education purposes
but for our economy as well.
To ensure that that that we know that that
that the programs that we're working on
are are are the most up to date they can be.
And you know if somebody said why
don't we get experts together in a
(12:23):
particular field to look at an industry,
you would that's a great idea.
Well,
it's actually happening.
It happens through through world skills
and and and for me that was one of
the big draws there is that we get,
we get to that table,
which is really important.
And because in Shanghai next year the
chief expert for the CAD Cam will be one
(12:45):
of our our our lecturers here in Scotland,
Barry skier,
who's head of engineering
at New College Lanarkshire.
And and that's a fantastic accolade.
You know,
Barry's been working with for those
skills going to competitions for
years and being part of that as a
as a skills coaches and assistant
training manager and training manager.
But he is now the chief expert for for
(13:07):
Cadcam engineering and he'll sit there.
And you know with his peers and be
part of that process of of developing
the the card standards will lead
and but he bring that knowledge and
understanding back here to Scotland
and into his own college and into the
into the you know the classroom and all
his students will get the benefit of that.
So we need more people that get
(13:29):
the opportunity to do that I think
in Scotland so so again you know
a real kind of signed benefit if
you like of being involved in
in the world skills movement.
No that that's fantastic.
You're absolutely right in terms
of Barry in terms of his expert
status and and the
ripple effect they'll have in terms
of his grip and design the kind of
colleagues that he works with but
(13:49):
also any connect external groups he
works with that kind of takes my
next question you know so for those
that either aren't currently involved
and want to be or what kind of want
to be aware of the developments
across those different competitions.
How would they find out about this you
know something when average lecture within.
One of the colleges he was interested in, in,
in one of the competitions on the website.
Does website have that sort of information
(14:11):
in terms of the skills being developed
and the standards expectations?
Yeah, there's, there's you go to the
World Skills UK website, you see,
you know how to get involved.
There's a whole,
there's a whole range of.
Packages and information there that
can be downloaded as to how to do it
but but but 19 colleges in Scotland
currently take part in rural schools so
(14:32):
so there's someone in your colleagues
at the moment will be will be doing
that so you know and if there isn't
then you know contact me I'm I'm
happy for people to do that as well
but but the vast majority of colleges
in Scotland have someone there who
who is actively taking part in in in
world skills activity at the moment.
(14:53):
No, that's fantastic.
And that takes about the next bit is
for some of the kind of location as
well as no competitions actually.
There's still a lot of information
on the World Skills hub and on the
website which actually comes back to
development of general skills and and
is that fair to say there as well?
Absolutely, because a lot of the,
uh that that maybe touch on um,
(15:14):
some of the discussion around the
center of excellence is that.
A lot of the skills that that that
that practitioners learn and use them
when they're training youngsters for
competition can be they're generic,
can be used across subject areas
whether you're in competition or not,
(15:34):
you know that continuous improvement
that that reflection on you know
what you do in the classroom and
understanding what excellence looks like.
All of that you know can be applied
regardless of of of whether you're taking
a student to a particular competition or not.
And again I think that's.
That's what the the you know the
world skills activity brings brings
(15:54):
back there was there was research
conducted probably about two years
ago now but the scope unit at the
University of Locks up and what
they concluded was that the.
That the the processes and the
techniques that the training managers
employ and and and getting young
people prepared for for competition,
a lot of them could actually be
(16:16):
mainstreamed into day-to-day curriculum
activity and teaching practice.
And that's around, you know,
how you understand what excellence
looks like,
how you engage in the very best standards,
what your practice is about.
You know how you can,
how you look at continually
improving what you're doing.
Not just about competence, not just.
That passion module,
to see that you've you know,
(16:37):
you've achieved that,
but how do you actually look at what,
what is the very best skill level
for that and how do you define,
continually refine, how do you assess,
how do you reflect?
How do you feedback to students?
And how do you continually practice
and improve and improve and improve?
Because as we know,
it doesn't matter if you're a
footballer or a tennis player or a
(16:59):
hairdresser or a plumber or a joiner,
you need to practice those
skills to become really,
really, really good at them.
To become excellent.
So it's about all of that, you know,
isn't just about competition,
it's about that mindset and those
processes as well and that's what the
centre of excellence is about now.
When the back of that
(17:19):
research that was conducted.
NCFE that the awarding body uh put
some sponsorship money up for world
skills to put in place a pilot program,
a three-year pilot program,
then looking at the Centre of
Excellence across the UK and there
were 2020 colleges in the first year.
(17:41):
Would allude to the part of that 50
odd across Scotland applied and two
from from Scotland were successful
in another one that has now been
admitted into the the second year over.
And what that involves is that that
that that staff 5 staff from each
of those colleges will be exposed
(18:02):
and be taken through the center
of excellence process around.
Whose staff would engage and think
about um that continuous improvement
process and looking at you know pressure
testing within their own classroom,
looking at how they would,
they would look at maybe lean processes
within within how they work you know
(18:24):
how they can continually improve so that
students are thinking about excellence.
How they reflect on their own
performance as far as you know what
it is the producing and and that
is starting to show real benefit.
Now Johnny you know that's the first year.
Completed and the feedback center
that we've got is that that that
colleges are finding this value.
(18:44):
The idea then would be that if those
five members of staff that have gone
through the first year would then
cascade that with another five members
of staff each in the second year of
the program and their own college.
But, but,
but,
but what new hearing and seeing is that
that some colleges are taking us even
further and from their own initiative.
In fact one College in England will put 150.
(19:09):
Stuff to 2nd year you know they'll
they'll fund that and and and
facilitate that themselves.
So they've obviously seen
an immediate benefit and.
So,
so,
so this whole idea now start to
gather some momentum around how
we how we look at best practice
and how we try and embed those
(19:29):
skills and techniques and and and
updated their teaching processes.
I think that's really interesting
you know kind of really interesting
and and going back to elements of
you know simple skills development.
You know I've had many many
conversations in years.
I've worked with requests from learning
and teaching perspective around how
how they kind of make it stick.
You know so to speak in terms of that
(19:50):
kind of ownership of big believer
in taking students on that journey
with him kind of given them that
ownership and the opportunities to
really monitor their own skills
development and but they need to be
taught that is a key but they need
we taught the kind of processes.
And going back to the website and Skills Hub,
there's a lot of different things
on there for when we're serious,
for kind of for lectures involved
both in world skills and not in
(20:11):
world skills to look at that.
And there's some real transferable
approaches and skill set and
mindset and approaches.
It approaches again um,
to be utilized within daily practice.
I think for me that's the key shift yet
it's not about that one off competition,
it's not about that's fantastic for
that one off student or the top
three students who get to go there.
But actually what about
the rest of the cohort?
(20:32):
Well actually.
If teaching practice develops the
mindset the skills the attitudes and
behaviors when the students fantastic.
That's for me what world skills is
all about in the the one student the
competition or or kind of representing
the college at the national competition
is also the chair on top of the cake.
But it's actually it's a yeah you're
absolutely right you know those that
(20:53):
go to competition and and become elite
fine they're they're the you know
the peak of the pyramid and some of
these are more interested than that
volume at the base of the pyramid through.
Who are getting the opportunity may
never go to competition but getting that
opportunity to to up to these standards
and and improve continually improve.
You know the the the process and
(21:14):
the and the product if you like.
No, officer.
People have seen that first time
twice with the two examples of
the fitness trainer competition.
I know exactly what you mean.
We had a say 1/4 of 25.
20 and one rest of the competition
Trenton didn't wanna do it.
No it just wasn't him.
But the difference is their daily
lessons were still kind of focused
(21:35):
on these standards and skills and
expectations and drawn in the benchmark
and the best practice that that would
derive from some of the competitions
and that for me is the important bit.
It's that shift in in in kind of
teaching election and but the key bit is.
It's the links to industry and the awareness
of what's being current and relevant,
because ultimately that
helps the students progress.
(21:57):
Into industry out of certain
skills and certain standard.
So yeah, I think it's fantastic
and just touch upon that.
You kind of mention the center of
excellence and kind of how that worked.
I guess the real question now is some
people thinking the kind of more.
Advanced individuals become more
experience of world skills, right?
Great, we've done that.
What next now, what is next for for Scotland?
What are your hopes or what is the feature
(22:19):
for Scotland and kind of your beliefs?
Yeah.
A team at the moment where there's
there's a fair amount of reviews
going on we'll get the the Scottish
Funding Council view and I was really
pleased that that that one of the
recommendations for Scottish Government
was around world skills and how you
(22:39):
know they should look to explore. So.
A relationship with world skills that
that that aligns with ambition ambitions
here in Scotland and also within the
recommendation there was a a recognition
that it wasn't just the competition
as it was about much more than that.
It was about international standards
and benchmarking and all of that.
(23:00):
So, so for me that was really good and in
response to that and the Scottish Government.
The week before last published on
response and they said that they were
sympathetic to that and they would
look to to explore that further.
So I think these are really,
really key important developments
alongside that.
The college principals in Scotland
(23:21):
have endorsed the paper that I put
to them a few weeks back as well.
And and within that paper I was
looking for a A an infrastructure
in Scotland which would which would
effectively put a centre of excellence
for Scotland in place and every
College in Scotland could access that
if they wanted to could access that.
(23:43):
Now that requires funding.
It will require you know people to to be
employed to to deliver those you know.
The skills coaches or whatever.
But I really believe that um, you know,
Scotland needs that infrastructure
on its own.
You know, we do very very well.
That world skills competition is that,
you know,
for the last,
you know,
since 2013 a college from Scotland has
(24:04):
been number one in the UK at the at the
UK competition and that's fantastic.
So we do have that really good
infrastructure as far as what happens in
colleges at the minute and how we can,
we can, we can.
You know get our students to
that national level.
What I really want to see is that as we
take our place in that international
(24:26):
seat and bring back that that base
practice and allow allow staff in our
colleges to experience and get the
opportunity to to to develop excellence.
Now the minute there's only three colleges
in Scotland are part of that process.
I would like to see every College
in Scotland getting the opportunity
to be part of that process and then
(24:46):
ultimately all staff in Scotland
if they want you know.
To understand and you know what the
process is the techniques are and get
the get that opportunity to to improve.
You know their own performance as well.
So so for me that that that that
is something that I would deal with
love to see for Scotland and in the
future and I think it's I think
(25:08):
it's something that that that not
only would be good for if he sector
but also I think for.
Working with industry and improving
productivity because at the end of
the day you know it's all about how
we can provide skilled a skilled
workforce that's at the very very
best they can be to to improve the
productivity of the of the country
(25:28):
that that that's the whole reason why
we fund you know and skills and skills
development is to make that contribution.
Nothing, I thought, yeah,
that's really interesting and you're
absolutely right with that final sensor.
But we'll touch upon this at
the very start in terms of.
Every conversation you have all kind
of feature of the economy of the
(25:48):
sectors is skills based and like I
said this is just not opportunity
for for lectures for students to
have a greater awareness.
First and foremost run skills
requirements certainly develop them.
Then thirdly where there is a
competition for them to challenge
their skills against other people
in their discipline you know so I I
totally agree it's really interesting
and as you alluded to also towards
the end this is a new for some code
(26:09):
in Scotland next to Colin Scott done
fantastically well quite a lot of
these competitions for for a period of.
Of years.
And how can we disseminate this further,
you know,
and have that ripple effect
both internal and code,
but also across the the way
that's got sector that's.
Some of the elements of learning can
just become part of the daily practice,
(26:29):
you know,
not just within those isolated areas
as well as individuals or killer
participating and doing fantastically
well in competitions is helping we
support that further to improve.
Now I think that's fantastic.
And I think,
yeah,
it's gonna be a really interesting
next 6 or 12 months.
You mentioned the different
conversations that are going on as
well as different opportunities
that are out there.
And frankly,
from my experience in England,
(26:50):
world skills wasn't really a big thing it
then came about and it really picked up.
Attraction and pick up some pace and
then obviously COVID came in and and
impacted that to a degree in terms
of the face to face competitions
as you mentioned the the big event
that kind of Burning Man etc.
But it's also given opportunity to
think and reflect and and actually
where can we go further and we
(27:10):
develop the kind of the skills and
opportunities to kind of broaden
those out and as you mentioned
there with with the engagement
and involvement Mcfe who have
a big award and organization in
England that's a positive there
as well as they have recognized
that and they're a big believer in
development of technical skills.
Just fantastic.
So no really interesting conversation
on so I think just to close it off
(27:31):
I guess would be useful for any kind
of final words or top tips or people
are thinking right, interested.
What next, what do I do now?
What are your thoughts or ideas there?
As I said, if anybody's interested, um,
you know, they can get in touch with me,
they can. As I say, there will be
someone in their college probably who's
involved at the moment and there's
(27:52):
loads of information available on the
the World Skills UK website as well.
But I just think that, you know,
it's, it's, it's one of these,
it's one of these.
Participations that hooks you,
you know once you're in there,
you know if you, if,
if you speak to staff at get involved,
you know they, they just you know.
(28:12):
There are just so many benefits of of
of of being involved because you're
working not only with peers and in
your own organization or in your
discipline in Scotland but you get that
opportunity to work with with people
from an international perspective.
And that's been one of the good
things that that that's come out
of the pandemic is that the whole
(28:33):
virtual opportunity to to engage you
know offered the opportunity to to
cheer based practice events over the
last year and various disciplines.
Some that had no understanding
or knowledge of at all.
Um,
But what was great was that there
were practitioners from across the
world that were taking part and they
were sharing their their expertise
(28:53):
and and how they developed the skill
in that particular subject and what
the issues were and what the problems
they were finding in their own
colleges of training organisations
and what the solutions where as well.
So that was great.
That was great knowledge sharing
across that as well and I think you
know when you get practitioners and.
Particular subject coming together,
(29:14):
it's fantastic and and a lot of the
issues are the same but the solutions
at times are different and it's how
you can share that and that's for
the greater benefit of everyone.
So yeah that would I would encourage
anybody to to get involved in in
world skills. No, that's fine.
That's one again I have to read it
(29:35):
at some point around yeah we it's
gonna it's free professional learning
you know without doing it because of
something you are actively engaging
and you want to develop better.
But like I said there's a there's
a whole host of opportunities to
do that there as well. We're not.
That's fantastic.
Well Mark thank you very much for your time.
It's a really really interesting
that's kind of getting a nice
snapshot into world skills.
Um at kind of different levels there as well.
(29:57):
But yeah I totally recommend
I'm on my website.
There's some really
interesting resources there.
It's it's all free which is probably
most important but there as well.
Yeah, we're not fantastic, man.
Thank you.
Would you like?
Hello welcome to the latest episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast.
Purpose of this podcast is bring the
four some key topics of conversation
and relation to learning and teaching
to discuss breakdown aspects of
practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to
integrate these into our daily practice.
Today I'm delighted to join
my Martin McGuire,
Worldskills UK director for Scotland,
(00:27):
and we look at the world skills.
Martin, good morning, how are you?
Good morning, Johnny.
Yeah, I'm good. Thanks.
Well, thanks for joining me this morning.
And obviously it's the top of we
support them quite a bit and I
think we kind of really interesting
conversation for others to hear.
So I think we need to kick off I
guess for those movies that aren't
aware around what World Skills
UK are kind of what they do.
If you don't mind providing
(00:48):
a bit of a bit of context,
we'll kind of take it from there.
Sure, yeah, yeah.
Well what are Skills UK is the
is the overarching body for the
countries within the UK to to
compete and to be part of the World
Skills International Network.
Um,
part of the the What the World
(01:09):
Skills UK engages in is organizing
the regional and the national
skills competitions in the UK.
But we also play a part in.
Access and international best
practice as well as the main coins
yet to to that low skills movement.
The world goes you care organization
(01:30):
also selects the the UK team that
will take part in the the biannual
Skills Olympics that takes place
every two years and also the EUR
that take place each other years.
It's about like it's about like
the football you've got the EUR
one year and the the the world's
the next so so that's part and
parcel of of what we do at World
(01:51):
Skills UK also since the pandemic.
Of diversified quite a bit as well
around um because primarily because
we couldn't stage a a big national
competition in Birmingham as we
normally do with 70,000 people coming
through that over over three days.
So we've diversified into looking
(02:12):
at more online activity through our
careers advocacy and also how we
deliver our excellence programs as well.
So,
so quite a chef in the last year and a half,
but I think when.
That that that's been fairly
successful as well Johnny no fantastic
that's gonna really interesting.
I think it'd be good to start with
(02:33):
you know the the competitions first
and foremost you know so obviously
after experience of this kind of
with with students with with kind of
teachers and I've worked with in the past.
But in terms of the competitions
can you tell us what but what
they are and how many of them are
there what sort of disciplines and
kind of what does that mean.
Yeah, the the competitions themselves,
there's there's about 60 odd
(02:55):
vocational areas that that.
You can compete and in those frameworks
that that that sat there and that
have devised an international level.
Um, and what takes place here in the UK
is that we have regional competitions
whereby lectures you know can enter
(03:16):
students into that competition in
their in their chosen vocational
area and then if they're successful
at a regional level they'll get the
opportunity to compete in national.
And that up until now has has
been been a Birmingham,
NEC where students would be down
to that event and that's that's
a fantastic occasion as I said.
(03:36):
But there's there's there's 71,000
people come through that over that
three day period because it also
is a a careers event as well.
And young people and their parents
would get the opportunity to
come through and see skills uh,
you know,
skills actually in action if you
like you know.
But when you when you arrive there,
it's just that whole wow factor of
(03:57):
seeing such a vast area of space but
filled with young people delivering
skills to to the very best standard.
Build that sprinklers or joining also
hairdressers or beauty therapists
or CAD engineers or whatever.
You know it's just a fantastic
experience to go there and and and
(04:17):
just see these really really high
level of of of skills taking place and
young people you know participating
and not only competing but actually
showing off that the skills that
they have and the level that they
can work to so that competition
takes place and then young people.
Um successful mayor get the opportunity
(04:39):
to enter into the squad for the UK
team and hopefully they they make
that team and and go and take part
in the international competition.
Then the next international
competition is in Shanghai next year.
And the last one,
the two police was in 2019 in Kazan,
Russia,
and that was really lucky to to get to
(05:01):
that and it was an incredible experience.
Just you know the the there's plenty
of videos on YouTube over if anybody
gets the chance I would recommend
that they take a look because not
only is it a really fantastic the
export of of skills but it's just
a fantastic experience for young
people to go there and you know it
was in Ruben Kazan the football teams
(05:23):
stadium that's for the the opening
and closing ceremonies took place
40,000 people there President Putin,
the law you know it was just an
incredible experience but also I think.
Just a celebration of of skills and so,
so, yeah, you know, as I say,
you know,
we have young people from Scotland to
(05:43):
start off in the referee college with
the lecturer putting them forward for
a regional competition and all of a sudden,
you know, they're,
you know,
they're participating in Kazan and
in an international competition.
And coming back,
I have to say with,
you know,
we had some success there with five members
from Scotland as part of the UK
team and two of them come back
(06:03):
with medallions of excellence,
which was. Incredible. So.
So yeah so that that's the kind
of that's the format and that's
that's the opportunities that are
there for for young people and in
Scotland to take part think that's
fantastic and and again for those
that might be listening haven't
seen the the breath competitions.
The first thing I would suggest to
do we kind of go and you know Google
have a look on the world's website
(06:24):
they list all different competitions
there and as I kind of alluded to it
start I've had experience an issue
with fitness trainer competition
where we had our finalists going
out the Bernie C and that was just
fantastic they absolutely loved this.
And it did wonders for their career
because obviously the personal
training world, for example,
it's all about kind of building your
own profile and on confidence and this,
this, this, this type of aspects.
And again linked to that one,
(06:45):
there was a lot of support there
for the learners.
And then in a second college we had
a roofing student who kind of got the
gold medal in England and he went
because I think potentially as well,
you know.
So anyway,
it's a fantastic experience for
students to get involved when
and involved with rather.
And often, I guess from my own experience.
Other lecturers was out to the
sports department actually how
(07:06):
do I celebrate my students?
How do I provide some competition
for my students?
Well, this is a ready made example where,
where, where that can be provided, you know.
So it's a fantastic opportunity and
I think the key bit you mentioned
is skills development through
the pandemic and post pandemic.
You know there's a lot of the
narrative is around or the future
of our economy is built upon skills.
(07:27):
Yeah,
it will be fair to see this from kind of ohh.
This is just what we do is lectures anyway.
You know,
we developed the skills of our
students and their vocation to
help them progress the industry,
but this is really an opportunity
to to give students that opportunity
to develop their skills and compete
against other people within their discipline.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're right.
(07:48):
I mean the competition as a means to
an end is about raising the profile
but also about allowing young people to,
to,
to develop their skill and to try and
be the best that they can be in that,
in that skill.
And and if we can,
if we can you know permeate,
permeate across the organization
then that that's a really good thing as well.
(08:11):
And you know some people are a bit
reluctant to go into competition
and for some people it's just not
for them at all and that that.
That's fine.
However,
what we found,
and I'm talking about from my
own college experience is that
when you do have lecturers, for instance,
who are involved in whether it be
regional or national competitions,
(08:33):
what they can bring back to the college
and to to then spread with their peers
is fantastic as well because they're
getting the opportunity to work with
people out with their organization to
to see the best practice that's there.
To learn from them,
to understand what the latest techniques,
uh in in the chosen vocational
(08:53):
area that they're working in,
what industry wants and to bring that back
into the college is a fantastic advantage
as well from from taking part in these,
these competitions.
And again from a personal development
perspective for lecturers,
that's really good as well because it means
that they're at the top of their game.
(09:13):
It means that they're,
they're working with the very,
very best in their field.
And that knowledge and understanding that
they get that they can bring back to their
their own workshop classroom environment.
So.
So there is a there is a kind of win win
for everyone there and also think that that
that you know it's good for the college.
You know the college you know is
working at a particular level with
(09:35):
you know within a a skills discipline
then industry recognizes that,
local industry recognizes that and and
there are there are spin offs for the
college as well if they're working to
those standards and that's recognized.
Because of the the partnerships that
they can then engage in with industry.
So.
So yeah I don't I don't see
any negatives in it.
I have to say sorry you know no I
(09:58):
think absolutely right a phrase which
I've you know came across throughout
my career in colleges and I kind of
overuse consciously is that good daily
practice and everything you've just said
there comes back to that you know so,
so naturally you know and this
happens without the competitions
as well but it's a useful tool
to to develop that awareness and
breadth and I know we've kind of.
(10:19):
Into William terms of World Skills,
International look map,
international standards
benchmark and sharing,
best practice and elements
say that there as well.
There's actually if we collectively across
colleges and workforce can continue to
to always strive to be better and kind
of making sure that the skills develop.
We we instill within our learners,
within our our daily practice is
(10:39):
to a certain standard and that
will only benefit ourselves,
our students,
our industry and our kind of relationships.
Well, good,
Ian.
One of the the things that that, that,
that, that really encouraged me to get
involved more with the World Skills
(10:59):
Movement was the fact that we were
talking about these 60 odd vocational
areas that they currently work in.
The frameworks that occupies those standards
and the frameworks for those areas are
refreshed and updated on a 2 year basis.
And what happens is that when these
world competitions take place,
(11:20):
once the competition is over,
the experts stay on and and they get
together and they look at the framework.
And they look at what's currently
happening worldwide in that particular
discipline and they all day and the
refresh and they do that in conjunction
with international standards,
but also with the industry input as well.
(11:40):
And once those are agreed then
of the seminatore across those
countries again for people to use.
And to me that that is such an
important facet of World Skills
International because it means that
that very young people are are working.
To those standards saying they're working
to the most up-to-date standards in
(12:02):
their area that they possibly can be.
And I think that's really,
really important for for us here in Scotland,
not only for for education purposes
but for our economy as well.
To ensure that that that we know that that
that the programs that we're working on
are are are the most up to date they can be.
And you know if somebody said why
don't we get experts together in a
(12:23):
particular field to look at an industry,
you would that's a great idea.
Well,
it's actually happening.
It happens through through world skills
and and and for me that was one of
the big draws there is that we get,
we get to that table,
which is really important.
And because in Shanghai next year the
chief expert for the CAD Cam will be one
(12:45):
of our our our lecturers here in Scotland,
Barry skier,
who's head of engineering
at New College Lanarkshire.
And and that's a fantastic accolade.
You know,
Barry's been working with for those
skills going to competitions for
years and being part of that as a
as a skills coaches and assistant
training manager and training manager.
But he is now the chief expert for for
(13:07):
Cadcam engineering and he'll sit there.
And you know with his peers and be
part of that process of of developing
the the card standards will lead
and but he bring that knowledge and
understanding back here to Scotland
and into his own college and into the
into the you know the classroom and all
his students will get the benefit of that.
So we need more people that get
(13:29):
the opportunity to do that I think
in Scotland so so again you know
a real kind of signed benefit if
you like of being involved in
in the world skills movement.
No that that's fantastic.
You're absolutely right in terms
of Barry in terms of his expert
status and and the
ripple effect they'll have in terms
of his grip and design the kind of
colleagues that he works with but
(13:49):
also any connect external groups he
works with that kind of takes my
next question you know so for those
that either aren't currently involved
and want to be or what kind of want
to be aware of the developments
across those different competitions.
How would they find out about this you
know something when average lecture within.
One of the colleges he was interested in, in,
in one of the competitions on the website.
Does website have that sort of information
(14:11):
in terms of the skills being developed
and the standards expectations?
Yeah, there's, there's you go to the
World Skills UK website, you see,
you know how to get involved.
There's a whole,
there's a whole range of.
Packages and information there that
can be downloaded as to how to do it
but but but 19 colleges in Scotland
currently take part in rural schools so
(14:32):
so there's someone in your colleagues
at the moment will be will be doing
that so you know and if there isn't
then you know contact me I'm I'm
happy for people to do that as well
but but the vast majority of colleges
in Scotland have someone there who
who is actively taking part in in in
world skills activity at the moment.
(14:53):
No, that's fantastic.
And that takes about the next bit is
for some of the kind of location as
well as no competitions actually.
There's still a lot of information
on the World Skills hub and on the
website which actually comes back to
development of general skills and and
is that fair to say there as well?
Absolutely, because a lot of the,
uh that that maybe touch on um,
(15:14):
some of the discussion around the
center of excellence is that.
A lot of the skills that that that
that practitioners learn and use them
when they're training youngsters for
competition can be they're generic,
can be used across subject areas
whether you're in competition or not,
(15:34):
you know that continuous improvement
that that reflection on you know
what you do in the classroom and
understanding what excellence looks like.
All of that you know can be applied
regardless of of of whether you're taking
a student to a particular competition or not.
And again I think that's.
That's what the the you know the
world skills activity brings brings
(15:54):
back there was there was research
conducted probably about two years
ago now but the scope unit at the
University of Locks up and what
they concluded was that the.
That the the processes and the
techniques that the training managers
employ and and and getting young
people prepared for for competition,
a lot of them could actually be
(16:16):
mainstreamed into day-to-day curriculum
activity and teaching practice.
And that's around, you know,
how you understand what excellence
looks like,
how you engage in the very best standards,
what your practice is about.
You know how you can,
how you look at continually
improving what you're doing.
Not just about competence, not just.
That passion module,
to see that you've you know,
(16:37):
you've achieved that,
but how do you actually look at what,
what is the very best skill level
for that and how do you define,
continually refine, how do you assess,
how do you reflect?
How do you feedback to students?
And how do you continually practice
and improve and improve and improve?
Because as we know,
it doesn't matter if you're a
footballer or a tennis player or a
(16:59):
hairdresser or a plumber or a joiner,
you need to practice those
skills to become really,
really, really good at them.
To become excellent.
So it's about all of that, you know,
isn't just about competition,
it's about that mindset and those
processes as well and that's what the
centre of excellence is about now.
When the back of that
(17:19):
research that was conducted.
NCFE that the awarding body uh put
some sponsorship money up for world
skills to put in place a pilot program,
a three-year pilot program,
then looking at the Centre of
Excellence across the UK and there
were 2020 colleges in the first year.
(17:41):
Would allude to the part of that 50
odd across Scotland applied and two
from from Scotland were successful
in another one that has now been
admitted into the the second year over.
And what that involves is that that
that that staff 5 staff from each
of those colleges will be exposed
(18:02):
and be taken through the center
of excellence process around.
Whose staff would engage and think
about um that continuous improvement
process and looking at you know pressure
testing within their own classroom,
looking at how they would,
they would look at maybe lean processes
within within how they work you know
(18:24):
how they can continually improve so that
students are thinking about excellence.
How they reflect on their own
performance as far as you know what
it is the producing and and that
is starting to show real benefit.
Now Johnny you know that's the first year.
Completed and the feedback center
that we've got is that that that
colleges are finding this value.
(18:44):
The idea then would be that if those
five members of staff that have gone
through the first year would then
cascade that with another five members
of staff each in the second year of
the program and their own college.
But, but,
but,
but what new hearing and seeing is that
that some colleges are taking us even
further and from their own initiative.
In fact one College in England will put 150.
(19:09):
Stuff to 2nd year you know they'll
they'll fund that and and and
facilitate that themselves.
So they've obviously seen
an immediate benefit and.
So,
so,
so this whole idea now start to
gather some momentum around how
we how we look at best practice
and how we try and embed those
(19:29):
skills and techniques and and and
updated their teaching processes.
I think that's really interesting
you know kind of really interesting
and and going back to elements of
you know simple skills development.
You know I've had many many
conversations in years.
I've worked with requests from learning
and teaching perspective around how
how they kind of make it stick.
You know so to speak in terms of that
(19:50):
kind of ownership of big believer
in taking students on that journey
with him kind of given them that
ownership and the opportunities to
really monitor their own skills
development and but they need to be
taught that is a key but they need
we taught the kind of processes.
And going back to the website and Skills Hub,
there's a lot of different things
on there for when we're serious,
for kind of for lectures involved
both in world skills and not in
(20:11):
world skills to look at that.
And there's some real transferable
approaches and skill set and
mindset and approaches.
It approaches again um,
to be utilized within daily practice.
I think for me that's the key shift yet
it's not about that one off competition,
it's not about that's fantastic for
that one off student or the top
three students who get to go there.
But actually what about
the rest of the cohort?
(20:32):
Well actually.
If teaching practice develops the
mindset the skills the attitudes and
behaviors when the students fantastic.
That's for me what world skills is
all about in the the one student the
competition or or kind of representing
the college at the national competition
is also the chair on top of the cake.
But it's actually it's a yeah you're
absolutely right you know those that
(20:53):
go to competition and and become elite
fine they're they're the you know
the peak of the pyramid and some of
these are more interested than that
volume at the base of the pyramid through.
Who are getting the opportunity may
never go to competition but getting that
opportunity to to up to these standards
and and improve continually improve.
You know the the the process and
(21:14):
the and the product if you like.
No, officer.
People have seen that first time
twice with the two examples of
the fitness trainer competition.
I know exactly what you mean.
We had a say 1/4 of 25.
20 and one rest of the competition
Trenton didn't wanna do it.
No it just wasn't him.
But the difference is their daily
lessons were still kind of focused
(21:35):
on these standards and skills and
expectations and drawn in the benchmark
and the best practice that that would
derive from some of the competitions
and that for me is the important bit.
It's that shift in in in kind of
teaching election and but the key bit is.
It's the links to industry and the awareness
of what's being current and relevant,
because ultimately that
helps the students progress.
(21:57):
Into industry out of certain
skills and certain standard.
So yeah, I think it's fantastic
and just touch upon that.
You kind of mention the center of
excellence and kind of how that worked.
I guess the real question now is some
people thinking the kind of more.
Advanced individuals become more
experience of world skills, right?
Great, we've done that.
What next now, what is next for for Scotland?
What are your hopes or what is the feature
(22:19):
for Scotland and kind of your beliefs?
Yeah.
A team at the moment where there's
there's a fair amount of reviews
going on we'll get the the Scottish
Funding Council view and I was really
pleased that that that one of the
recommendations for Scottish Government
was around world skills and how you
(22:39):
know they should look to explore. So.
A relationship with world skills that
that that aligns with ambition ambitions
here in Scotland and also within the
recommendation there was a a recognition
that it wasn't just the competition
as it was about much more than that.
It was about international standards
and benchmarking and all of that.
(23:00):
So, so for me that was really good and in
response to that and the Scottish Government.
The week before last published on
response and they said that they were
sympathetic to that and they would
look to to explore that further.
So I think these are really,
really key important developments
alongside that.
The college principals in Scotland
(23:21):
have endorsed the paper that I put
to them a few weeks back as well.
And and within that paper I was
looking for a A an infrastructure
in Scotland which would which would
effectively put a centre of excellence
for Scotland in place and every
College in Scotland could access that
if they wanted to could access that.
(23:43):
Now that requires funding.
It will require you know people to to be
employed to to deliver those you know.
The skills coaches or whatever.
But I really believe that um, you know,
Scotland needs that infrastructure
on its own.
You know, we do very very well.
That world skills competition is that,
you know,
for the last,
you know,
since 2013 a college from Scotland has
(24:04):
been number one in the UK at the at the
UK competition and that's fantastic.
So we do have that really good
infrastructure as far as what happens in
colleges at the minute and how we can,
we can, we can.
You know get our students to
that national level.
What I really want to see is that as we
take our place in that international
(24:26):
seat and bring back that that base
practice and allow allow staff in our
colleges to experience and get the
opportunity to to to develop excellence.
Now the minute there's only three colleges
in Scotland are part of that process.
I would like to see every College
in Scotland getting the opportunity
to be part of that process and then
(24:46):
ultimately all staff in Scotland
if they want you know.
To understand and you know what the
process is the techniques are and get
the get that opportunity to to improve.
You know their own performance as well.
So so for me that that that that
is something that I would deal with
love to see for Scotland and in the
future and I think it's I think
(25:08):
it's something that that that not
only would be good for if he sector
but also I think for.
Working with industry and improving
productivity because at the end of
the day you know it's all about how
we can provide skilled a skilled
workforce that's at the very very
best they can be to to improve the
productivity of the of the country
(25:28):
that that that's the whole reason why
we fund you know and skills and skills
development is to make that contribution.
Nothing, I thought, yeah,
that's really interesting and you're
absolutely right with that final sensor.
But we'll touch upon this at
the very start in terms of.
Every conversation you have all kind
of feature of the economy of the
(25:48):
sectors is skills based and like I
said this is just not opportunity
for for lectures for students to
have a greater awareness.
First and foremost run skills
requirements certainly develop them.
Then thirdly where there is a
competition for them to challenge
their skills against other people
in their discipline you know so I I
totally agree it's really interesting
and as you alluded to also towards
the end this is a new for some code
(26:09):
in Scotland next to Colin Scott done
fantastically well quite a lot of
these competitions for for a period of.
Of years.
And how can we disseminate this further,
you know,
and have that ripple effect
both internal and code,
but also across the the way
that's got sector that's.
Some of the elements of learning can
just become part of the daily practice,
(26:29):
you know,
not just within those isolated areas
as well as individuals or killer
participating and doing fantastically
well in competitions is helping we
support that further to improve.
Now I think that's fantastic.
And I think,
yeah,
it's gonna be a really interesting
next 6 or 12 months.
You mentioned the different
conversations that are going on as
well as different opportunities
that are out there.
And frankly,
from my experience in England,
(26:50):
world skills wasn't really a big thing it
then came about and it really picked up.
Attraction and pick up some pace and
then obviously COVID came in and and
impacted that to a degree in terms
of the face to face competitions
as you mentioned the the big event
that kind of Burning Man etc.
But it's also given opportunity to
think and reflect and and actually
where can we go further and we
(27:10):
develop the kind of the skills and
opportunities to kind of broaden
those out and as you mentioned
there with with the engagement
and involvement Mcfe who have
a big award and organization in
England that's a positive there
as well as they have recognized
that and they're a big believer in
development of technical skills.
Just fantastic.
So no really interesting conversation
on so I think just to close it off
(27:31):
I guess would be useful for any kind
of final words or top tips or people
are thinking right, interested.
What next, what do I do now?
What are your thoughts or ideas there?
As I said, if anybody's interested, um,
you know, they can get in touch with me,
they can. As I say, there will be
someone in their college probably who's
involved at the moment and there's
(27:52):
loads of information available on the
the World Skills UK website as well.
But I just think that, you know,
it's, it's, it's one of these,
it's one of these.
Participations that hooks you,
you know once you're in there,
you know if you, if,
if you speak to staff at get involved,
you know they, they just you know.
(28:12):
There are just so many benefits of of
of of being involved because you're
working not only with peers and in
your own organization or in your
discipline in Scotland but you get that
opportunity to work with with people
from an international perspective.
And that's been one of the good
things that that that's come out
of the pandemic is that the whole
(28:33):
virtual opportunity to to engage you
know offered the opportunity to to
cheer based practice events over the
last year and various disciplines.
Some that had no understanding
or knowledge of at all.
Um,
But what was great was that there
were practitioners from across the
world that were taking part and they
were sharing their their expertise
(28:53):
and and how they developed the skill
in that particular subject and what
the issues were and what the problems
they were finding in their own
colleges of training organisations
and what the solutions where as well.
So that was great.
That was great knowledge sharing
across that as well and I think you
know when you get practitioners and.
Particular subject coming together,
(29:14):
it's fantastic and and a lot of the
issues are the same but the solutions
at times are different and it's how
you can share that and that's for
the greater benefit of everyone.
So yeah that would I would encourage
anybody to to get involved in in
world skills. No, that's fine.
That's one again I have to read it
(29:35):
at some point around yeah we it's
gonna it's free professional learning
you know without doing it because of
something you are actively engaging
and you want to develop better.
But like I said there's a there's
a whole host of opportunities to
do that there as well. We're not.
That's fantastic.
Well Mark thank you very much for your time.
It's a really really interesting
that's kind of getting a nice
snapshot into world skills.
Um at kind of different levels there as well.
(29:57):
But yeah I totally recommend
I'm on my website.
There's some really
interesting resources there.
It's it's all free which is probably
most important but there as well.
Yeah, we're not fantastic, man.
Thank you.
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