December 8, 2021 • 27 mins
In this episode, we talk to Jonny Kay, Head of Teaching, Learning and Assessment at Newcastle College. Jonny is a former English teacher with a wealth of experience across the school/college sector and more recently, the author of Improving Maths and English In Further Education: A Practical Guide.
We discuss all things English and maths, with a focus on ideas to improve the delivery of standalone qualifications, as well as the importance of all lecturers/teachers helping to make learners more literate and numerate.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast.
The purpose of this podcast is to bring
the force and key topics of conversation
in relation to learning teaching,
to discuss, to break down aspects
of practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to
integrate these into our daily practice.
Today I'm delighted to be joined by
Johnny Cash, Johnny's next bird in the
world of All Things English and maths.
(00:26):
Johnny, good afternoon.
How are you? Hello, Sir. Very well.
How are you? Yeah, great. Thanks.
Not bad for a Friday afternoon.
That's an interesting tape recorded podcast,
but uh, yeah, we're here.
We're committed.
So let's go. Yeah.
So I think for the benefit of the listeners,
kind of both in Scotland,
kind of elsewhere across the UK,
bit of background about yourself,
if you don't mind.
In terms of what's your journey been
to kind of get where you are now.
(00:47):
Yeah, of course I'll.
I'll cut out a bit of being born
and go to primary school.
Go straight to the the
the professional focus.
Um, I was qualified as a
secondary school English teacher.
What feels like a very long time ago
eventually ended up as a as a head
of English in a secondary school.
And then I sort of an opportunity
arose at the college that had
(01:09):
actually been to as a younger man.
Is is head of English and maths.
So went for it,
got it out of a very successful
couple of years and held a similar
position at another college
before eventually ending up as.
Is heritage and land and then assessment
at Newcastle College so fairly,
fairly varied and and some very
interesting and exciting opportunities
(01:31):
along the way thankfully.
That's fantastic.
Thanks, Johnny.
I know we, we,
we spoken quite a lot about, you know,
vocational education more broadly,
but also English, maths.
And that's really the purpose
of today's conversation really,
is to shine a light on,
I guess what your views are,
what your thoughts are,
what your experience has told you
and to provide some some hints,
tips,
perspectives for others that
maybe can listen,
listen and think about how they can,
(01:51):
um reflect on their practice and
potentially look at different ways
of taking their things forward.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I guess you've probably seen
a bit of everything, you know,
kind of work in schools and colleges.
But I think what we'll do is
we'll start with the.
The delivery of standalone
English mascot qualifications.
Yeah,
yeah,
I guess kind of from your views
in the in the college landscape.
Maybe could have they change or
(02:12):
kind of what are your thoughts
around kind of where,
where have you seen that done
particularly well and kind of what other,
what other commonalities there?
Yeah,
I mean I would say certainly this even
within the last few years the standard is,
is improving.
I think you know as you say there's
a greater understanding of what's required,
there's more collaboration
between people within departments.
You know I think in in those worst
(02:33):
case scenarios where we see silos
where perhaps you know different
levels different qualifications
and and you know staff of service.
Different areas of the curriculum
and maybe not talking to each other
and I think that's certainly the
barriers around that are being removed.
And I think, you know,
different colleges within regions
are Speaking of each other.
Nationally there's more of a,
there's more of a forum of
debate and discussion.
(02:54):
Now you know,
people recognize and have a really good
understanding of what their local,
regional and national challenges are.
And there's a lot more conversation
which I think is fantastic.
I think certainly that you know
our collaborative practice of,
you know, making sure you've got a
a varied and engaging curriculum.
And that suits the needs of of all students.
I certainly think that's come a
(03:14):
heck of a long way.
But I think for me,
I think a lot of colleges,
a lot of, a lot of, you know,
leaders, a lot of managers,
a lot of teachers perhaps looking
at what they're doing and and
realizing that actually they maybe
they don't so much and that what
you need to do is just focus on the
basics and get the basics right.
Keep it simple, you know,
keep it so that there's that,
you know, that line of communication
(03:35):
between vocational areas,
between English and math staff,
between students, between parents,
between guardians.
All stakeholders know,
you know what they need to do,
how they need to do it and and you
know how they're going to get there.
So it's really just keep it simple
and just do the basics very,
very well.
No,
I think it's really points out,
I'm gonna go pick up a couple of
those and I think the first bit
(03:55):
there you can identify really is
going to clarity of of rules and
keeping things really, really simple.
And you're right though.
Ecologists and kind of Scottish colleges,
English colleges,
they're very complex beasts and often
they're going to say it's easy for
for things to get lost in the long
grass or kind of lost in translation.
So I think the first point that
gonna pick on there might well be
that that clarity of information
(04:17):
and keeping things really simple.
So I guess what are your thoughts
on that in terms of let's focus
on a luxurious perspective from
now terms of kind of working
with their cohort of learners.
What are you,
what are your thoughts tips or views
there to kind of aid that with students?
Yeah,
yeah well I think.
You know as you say very very complex
based Fe colleges and rightly so.
I mean some of these organizations
(04:38):
dealing with 10s of of millions
of pounds and you need to be,
you need to be a complex
base to make sure
that the right things are happening
at the right times from a number
of perspectives whether that's you
know basic compliance teaching and
learning achievement whatever it is.
I think for me it's having that overall
vision that overarching vision of you
know this is this is how we approach
things not just from a perspective of of
(04:59):
compliance and data and planning but also.
An ethos and a vision,
these are the things that we're going to
do and This is why we're going to do them.
And everybody within the organization
knows what those things are.
You know, there's you trim the
fact there are no processes,
no policies, no actions,
no projects.
There's nothing there that doesn't add
to a positive outcome for students,
(05:20):
whether that is a qualification or
whether that is just being able to do
things very much more in a sophisticated
manner than you could a year ago.
So I think where we look at planning,
making sure that it's.
You know, tight enough so that everybody's
got a general picture of what they should
be doing and when they should be doing it.
But loose enough that individual Alexis
can do that with their own flavor,
(05:41):
in their own way, in their own style, in it.
You know, really simple example.
I'll make a lesson.
I'm, I, you know, present that lesson.
And it's, it's a fantastic lesson.
I might give that exact same planning to you.
And you struggle to present
that lesson and vice versa.
And I've seen that, and we all have.
So making sure there's a framework in
place for planning so people know what to
do when they're doing it, basic timelines.
(06:01):
There for everybody to see.
So we all know there's going
to be a mock On this date.
We all know there's, you know,
gonna be these key events
throughout the year.
Whether that's as I say an assessment
or whether that's a, you know,
a some enrichment in sport,
which means load,
these students are going to be there.
So not just in English or maths,
but everywhere.
And I think also that tracking and
(06:22):
assessment again is as simple as possible,
but that the individual lecturers
are feeding into that bigger system.
So you know,
you have lectures feeding maybe to a deputy.
Department who then reported or head of
department so that you have overview
and oversight of what you need to,
no matter what your perspective is.
What kind of hour in a little bit on
(06:43):
kind of the classroom practice now,
so individual lectures,
you're actually all kind of fits in?
And I know, pardon me,
a lot of kind of practice you identified
there, it sounds really simple,
but that's the most effective elements,
you know,
in terms of those effective routines, right?
A lot of the anecdotal feedback
I've kind of heard of,
from speaking to lecturers,
(07:03):
speaking to students at times,
is that English and maths is
harder to teach because
straight where there's a negative
stigma from you because what I've got
to do this again, I'm not very good at.
I've done this at school,
I've done this elsewhere.
So guess what are the thoughts of?
What are the tips there for a lecturer,
for a teacher, I think, right.
How can how can they build that
and develop those routines or
(07:23):
behaviors with their students?
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's there.
There's obviously the the best.
Talk English and math stuff.
But there's also the stuff that you you
would say is good practice everywhere.
So having very high standards
doesn't matter what you teaching,
if you've got very high standards,
if you're fair, if you've got empathy,
if you can break things down to you know,
you hear sort of worst cases,
(07:44):
as you know, we've had the discussion,
you hear this, they should know that.
They should know how to do that.
Yeah, well, they don't to teach them.
It's not about your sort of, you know,
should have this, should have that.
Just break it down.
I think also from an English
and maths perspective,
aligning yourself with, you know,
the ethos and the values of the curriculum
area and working closely with them,
you know,
(08:04):
can you get involved in induction processes?
Can you do it?
Really brief presentation in
vocational areas and just,
you know,
let students know that you've got
a close relationship with you,
had a construction with construction
letters that you understand what the
challenges are and contextualizing properly.
And and not sort of,
you know putting putting
crossword in the middle of a of a
(08:26):
construction lesson and saying that
that's embedded and vice versa.
Not you know throwing around a
couple of construction examples,
actually working with construction
staff and your hairdressing
staff to properly embed and and
get those top tips in there.
So for me I think the basics
have those high standards.
Enough empathy for your students.
Make sure that you you're breaking
down the barriers and sort of chunking
(08:47):
where you need to and differentiating
to their level and despite what you
think there should be or where you know,
the national curriculum
might say there should be.
And that kind of really builds
kind of point that that's been
discussed quite a bit this year.
But I guess it's always been relevant
especially in this mass is around a
really effective initial assessment,
no, but, but I'm talking here, yes,
you might do the college based approach
(09:09):
but I think more than ever now,
but also some massage,
but now more than ever it's really
important that individual with your cohort,
you do a very thorough in-depth
initial assessment.
Really disagree.
I think again,
well,
it's a tough one because it depends what
your definition of thority is I think.
You know any initial assessment where
you are assessing them sort of broadly
(09:29):
across the skills that they are going
to need to be successful and having seen
that assessment you will have a, you know,
a solid idea of what strength areas for
improvement and what the next steps are.
Personally, you know, think about it just
me days in a school where it's at times,
you know they have a transition week
from year 60, year seven and you know
you'd be asked to spend the full week
asking them to do mock assessments.
(09:50):
I'd get more out of a 5 minute conversation
with them on the door than I would
out within an hour mock assessment.
And I think similar I think that there
is absolutely a place for the you know
the the more formal the computer based
initial assessment that you know a lot of
colleges have as a as a mandatory step.
But I think also as you say you've you've
got to have that time that snapshot at
(10:11):
the beginning of that first lesson um.
But it you know it can't be an hour
and a half mock because again you
want to standards and you don't want
students coming out with a GCSE exam
or a you know an assessment whatever
that may be in the summer then coming
into an initial assessment then coming
into your lesson and doing.
Other assessment,
you've gotta break away from that,
you know, heavy, sort of really in-depth,
(10:32):
massive, lengthy and it's gotta
just be low stakes but high impact.
Absolutely.
It all comes back. Purpose.
What's the purpose if you
do something with it?
And Grace, you're absolutely right.
The kind of first four,
six weeks of an academic session.
Yeah.
Last thing you wanna do is just kind of
break students down by doing an assessment
after assessment after assessment.
And you're right,
that conversation or something
that can really help you build that
(10:53):
relationship with the students is is
more impactful than anything else.
Yeah.
And by no means am I saying,
um, you know,
stop doing initial assessments
and just have a chat with them.
Uh,
just that there there are many components
and we have to get a holistic viewpoint
and having a discussion and just,
you know,
watching what they can do and watching
their interactions within the first
session builds up that picture.
(11:15):
And I'm a former principal
of mine kind of identify.
Look we're not teaching this maths,
we're making students literate
numerous and that's absolutely fine.
That's kind of what we need to be doing.
You know it's not a stand alone
part of their their stubby,
it's an it's absolutely fundamental
point right there in terms of
the communication across the
college across different areas.
But I always go back to
(11:36):
the individual actually.
What can you do and what Scottish
colleague will hate me for
saying this but I still wanna.
Garth Southgate,
when he came out as England manager,
the term he used was owned.
The process.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what we can
do is actually we can own our
own space with our students.
You know, some of those points that you
mentioned there are particularly key in the
kind of ones that really draw back out.
Still again we mentioned is
keep it really simple. Yeah.
(11:57):
Look at your curriculum and say,
you know we're doing this on this day
is going to help young people that win,
prove is going to help students to improve.
Is it gonna help any. You know,
apprenticeship apprentices to improve.
And if the answer is no,
you've either got to scrub what it
is or you've got to put a follow
up in there so that it's valuable.
So as you'll see an initial assessment,
if you just, you know, take it,
you do it and sits on the shelf.
Is it useful?
(12:17):
No.
So you've either got to scrub it or
you've got a plan in some activity
where you analyze what is being produced
and you put some actions in place.
Whether that is an intervention,
whether that is an adaptation
of your curriculum,
you've got to do something with the
numbers that you constantly have.
And that's it.
And there's been a lot of research
(12:38):
again across the piece around a key
thing for English and maths delivery
and success within the college
sector is what, repeated practice.
Yeah, the agree, disagree.
What are your thoughts around that?
I have these discussions often with
I've got you know got a few friends
who work in primary school and they
tell me you know a lot of a lot of
different things have come out over
the years around you know timetables
(12:58):
or basic rules right away to to
year six or you know the the end
of primary or even in the middle
school role-playing and always works.
And I think it is our job to make
rote learning interesting what
I call Gorilla rote learning.
As long as the students don't
know it's rote learning I think
that's probably the way to go.
If they're coming and saying we're
doing this again you've lost them.
(13:19):
So I think.
Making sure with it, yes,
there's repetition,
but it is engaging and it is,
you know, differentiated.
And it is creative enough that
the students don't realize it.
Because let's have it right when you're
in a recent position or you're in poor 16,
there should hopefully be no new content.
There shouldn't be any new content,
so all of it is repetition.
(13:40):
So I think the trick to to good
practice in poor 16 is that the
students don't realize this.
And that's where it comes back to
you know I guess my partner can
effective initial assessment because
it will make a really simple notes
in the case let's say in English has
12 blocks of learning or 12 things
that learners should be able to do.
If initial assessments really
effective you identify student is
great at six of those but needs
(14:00):
to focus on the
other six then that kind of tells
us what kind of Lesson plan our
strategies with learners to focus on
those areas on that theme not stuff.
Workloads are a huge challenge right
now it always has been but also
because of COVID because of different.
Um, process. Different challenges in
evolution of College in terms of systems,
approaches and so on and so
(14:22):
forth and less time.
I guess technology may help to
solve some of those time issues,
yeah, other strategies as well.
So I guess for English and math teachers,
well listen to this,
I had lunch mass.
What are your thoughts around
that in terms of what again what
tips or what advice might you have
around approaches to to either
being more efficient or using
(14:43):
technology to support efficiency?
Exactly the same as the other.
I think what we've got to see is,
you know, as you know,
technology is is no magic bullet.
If it's sort of it,
it is likely the technology and the
the most useful and that sort of
best technology is just going to
supplement the things that you would
do in anyway that was successful.
And don't get sucked in by the gimmick.
(15:06):
Don't have you know sort of you know
your your reference in 12 apps and and
you know 15 different YouTube channels.
Keep it simple, use it as supplement the
good practice that you've already got.
So again,
we know low stakes quizzes work really well.
Set it up on Microsoft forms,
set it up on Google Classroom.
It's self marking.
It does something that you
were already doing,
(15:26):
but takes the workload off you.
If we're introducing, I mean,
you know some of the gimmicky
elements where we're, you know,
trying to crowbar too many things in,
you're gonna make it too complex
and it just isn't going to happen.
So use technology to supplement the
quality practice that you already had.
And it goes back to that magic word again.
Purpose. You know, what's the point again?
(15:48):
If you're not gonna use it, don't do it.
It's not going to add value.
Don't do it.
But in the same breath,
as there's a lot of things out,
there's been a huge amount of
developments over the last 18 months,
more so than last 10 years,
that might allow that increased
levels of efficiently efficiency
rather than reduce your workload.
But again, it's about the purpose,
about how it fits.
And I know again different approaches
(16:09):
taken by by elections in the past
have been really throw up their
curriculum and look at the actual what
will not be teach, what do I eat?
Goes back to what you were saying before.
Court the Court of the car, it's.
And again as you say it, if there's you,
you should never ever, ever me.
You should never,
ever,
ever introduce anything that is either
not going to replace what you've already got.
(16:30):
I am all cut down on workload in the long
run because of everything.
No matter if you know if it
will overtake something.
Introducing at the beginning will be
a little bit of extra work as long
as it makes something else obsolete.
So whatever you bring in should get
rid of someone else. Absolutely.
And what I would say is again it takes,
I think intent to do is but we've
got the technology available now.
I know most colleges use Microsoft Teams.
(16:51):
I'll kind of Google Classroom or
actually there's an abundance of of
online materials out there or materials
created over the last 18 months
where you might be able to develop
a mixtape approach of students here
as well in terms of their own across
whatever it is that you feel those
key concepts that you need students
to progress with for their mass
delivery of their English delivery
where you can kind of the same poor
(17:13):
students to there as well kind of.
Relinquishes over time, come back.
That's a sustainability point
you just mentioned there.
Yeah, there's some huge opportunities where.
You can actually collaborate as
you've just alluded to again.
With others in your college or outside
of your college because we're all
teaching the same aspects of mass,
the same aspects of English.
But yes we want to make it
relevant to other students.
But there's a huge opportunity there
(17:34):
to do something that takes a bit
of time to invest in but will save
us a lot of time in the long run.
Well, I think this is, this is the positive.
I mean, you know,
offered research paper recently
and there's been others,
government white papers have come
out that have referenced the
opportunity of research and F8I think
that in itself is slowly changing.
So access to research and don't just
stick to you know further educational post.
(17:55):
Thing where we're looking at assessment.
It doesn't look massively different
secondary schools or middle schools,
primary schools look for those key tenants.
Look for the you know the elements
the the pillars that it's telling
you what works and what doesn't and
use that to guide you practiced.
Because I think where we talk about
tech you know you get you get people
in education who just think if I
buy 40 iPads that will fix the
(18:15):
problem and things will improve.
Well what are you gonna do with the iPad.
You know what is it you know if you
got any specific apps is there a
specific purpose to that or do you
just think getting you know getting
a laptop in or fix a problem because
unless you've got as you say.
Purpose,
but unless it replaces something else,
it warned.
That's it ultimately draws back
to the effect of understanding
application of pedagogy,
which is kind of what we talked all
(18:35):
along through this podcast series.
And, and really,
yeah,
education is made more comments
by lots and lots of things.
And this is meant to be a criticism.
And it's about 10 of us as
practitioners reflect and think,
yeah, what difference can we make?
You know, everything that you said
that the last 20 minutes have
been really pertinent. Yeah, man.
Conscious of time vocational programs.
So I'm a construction extra.
(18:58):
A lot of what I hear,
and this is my construction,
a lot of what I hear, vocational practices.
That's not my job.
When actually it's everyone's job to
make our students more literate and
numerate to progress into their career.
So I guess what your views are,
what kind of what are your top tips or
advice or games or how we phrase it,
people thinking that actually
I'm running this last teacher.
I struggle with this myself.
(19:19):
Why should they start?
How could they do it? Yeah,
I think for me you've you've gotta be open.
You've gotta be honest with
yourself about your own level.
And I think you've,
you've gotta find a way to
identify what that level is.
Whether that is you know and you know again
you don't have to do this but you know as a,
as a construction lecture.
I was not sure where your level could you
sit down and do that same initial assessment?
Uh,
it's 2025 minutes.
Give you a really quick idea of what
(19:40):
you need to work on because you know
we talked about that's not my job.
We've got a professional
accountability and you've got a
professional responsibility to improve
yourself as well as your students.
And if you're not where you
need to be for English.
That's that's fine,
but it's not fine to do nothing about it.
So I think identify what your own level,
what your own standard is.
I think you've got to work with your
English and maths practitioners.
And for me it's it's about consistency.
(20:02):
So if we're in construction,
you know,
there's there's a there's you know
we're building something that
requires trigonometry to make
sure it doesn't fall over.
How is that being taught?
Because lately they've been taught,
the students are being taught
it one way and secondary,
maybe three or four,
depending upon how many teachers they had
and what the ages of those teachers were.
They've then getting taught a different way.
From the poor 16 practitioner and
(20:23):
then another way again with the
construction practitioner if you can
just have a really quick conversation
can I have a look at your resources,
share those resources,
embed those resources that'll take you 30
seconds to where e-mail or have a chat.
Straight away that student gets two
hits of the same method if you can
you know hopefully space that out
across your your respective curriculums.
(20:45):
It's been reinforced again
that gorilla rote learning,
they don't realize they're getting taught
exactly the same thing and exactly the same.
Way they don't realise that,
but it helps embed it.
Nothing.
I would say something and that it's
also worth just spending 10 minutes
reflecting on your cooking Alaska 12
weeks I think actually where did
I teach math because I think what
lectures are surprised that firstly
is is how much the the teaching this
(21:06):
must naturally part of their program
absolutely kind of key terms and
spellings and definitions you know
that's a starting point definitely
and signposted and there's you know
there is the rote learning and again
this doesn't have to be a sort of you
know two day conference where we all
we all allowed to a hotel somewhere it
put a call in you know go to the cafe.
You bring this game alone and
(21:26):
I'll bring a pen, right?
There's where it's naturally occurred,
there's where it's naturally occurring.
I'll send you what I've got.
Instant consistency.
And that's the key bit.
It's a natural occurrence because I
know I still got back to an observation
of it was actually pure observation.
But the lecture, I kind of felt that
they had advertised the students.
That's English must say.
Actually, you're doing this for us.
(21:47):
What we're going through,
but it's actually would do this
as part of our daily practice
and that's the key bit for us.
Firstly, again as a whole workforce
having that awareness,
having that confidence,
you absolutely right there.
But can I have a conversation,
I'm struggling on this,
but how can I do it better?
But the third but kind of most important,
which is where you get the
hook with the students,
which is rather vocational expert
unless they have a slight advantage.
(22:08):
Sometimes English must stand alone lecturers.
If students are there for construction
or for their for their hair and beauty,
think about how.
What's actually really needed
within the workforce,
within the industry and draw back,
you know, and again,
the the things that I think too often
we refer back to the, you know,
the levels in the programs and the
courses and the qualifications.
(22:29):
If again that construction example,
you know, I'm going to ask you
as a student and I'm a lecturer,
how long do you think that'll take?
That's maths.
His estimation number,
time, quantity,
you know,
if there's any sort of conversation going on,
any form of message being
communicated that English,
and maybe actually think of it less
as maths and English and think of
it more as literacy and numeracy.
(22:51):
Absolutely right.
No, that's a really,
that's an exercise.
Like I said,
I'd implore people who are listening
to this to do that.
It's a spend even just 10
minutes I drive home or walking
the dog or however you listen.
Actually well where have a.
Made my students more literate,
more numerate this week or last
week or actually hopefully no,
we're short on time.
But the one example I always go back to
that helps people that realize this is,
(23:11):
you know, we talk about,
talk about English, talk about,
you know,
qualifications.
If you think back to being say 9 or
10 years old and you've got to cross
the road, you've got to estimate wind speed,
you've got to estimate car speed,
estimate the people around you,
you know many, many variables,
how quick you will need to be,
how much you may need to improve or
quicken your pace if the cars coming.
You do all of those calculations
as a sort of 78910 year.
(23:32):
In a fraction of a second and you're then
going to say is a 16 year old after you
know 10 and 12 years of of of education
within you know schools and colleges,
also outside where parents, carers,
guardians, we friends, you,
you do these you know constant calculations.
You do that fraction of a
second and it's a 16 year old.
You can't do long division.
It's it's just practice.
It's happened to behavior.
(23:53):
That's what comes back to you now.
It's really really interesting points.
We have to follow up with another
conversation at different time.
And Johnny I must say
you've done really well.
We're going 25 minutes
without mentioning your book.
We couldn't finish this without
kind of sharing this with with with
kind of people listening to this.
So obviously you've got a
wealth of experience you know,
with English and maths and obviously
you've kind of ended up on,
(24:13):
ended up not finish your journey completely.
Yes.
The next step your journey
has been to develop a book.
So just work quickly share a
little bit about what that is
where that came from kind of what?
Yeah.
Yeah ended up do you do you
know something I don't.
So I think it was just it was it was
roughly the first lockdown I was
head of English and math department
at the time and actually because
I came in from secondary schools I
(24:34):
I sort of put myself out there and
said during the beginning of the
journey in FA you know I need a bit
of advice here you know how would you
do things what works for you because
again that possibly your research.
So I just reached out to as many
people as I could and you know making
phone calls emails LinkedIn turning
up it it it colleges and and just
having a poke around what they do
and it it tended to be you know
when we were going through that.
(24:55):
Just take your test grade process
was getting a lot of messages lot of
calls and and I thought actually you
know I may have some some knowledge
you know I've I've collected all
these ideas from these people
who are better than I am maybe I
should put them in one place then.
So yeah I had a chat with the the
wonderful people at McGraw Hill they were
happy for to you know move forward with
(25:17):
it and and wrote it over that summer.
So yeah improving maths in English in
further education practical guide was.
Sorted and released in June this year.
Fantastic and I'm looking to spend my,
my my hard earned pennies on that
Johnny what would I find what's within
that is it kind of is a wide range of
(25:40):
strategies ideas potential solutions
there for individuals in the workforce.
Yeah well it's pretty much I mean it's
a it is just that it is that practical
guide for people at all levels.
So there's there's so much in there
for for lecturers because as you know
as I was ahead of English and maths
I still made sure that I thought I
thought it was important that you
know it was visible that I was doing
that and also for me to understand
personally what the challenges
(26:00):
were that lecturers were facing.
And what the solutions could
be sort of trial and myself.
And so there's there's so much in there
around you know quick wins and and
cutting workload while getting really
you know massive impact in assessment.
There's a lot in there about
behavior management.
There's elements in there for
middle and senior leaders around
organizing a curriculum,
around timetabling around you know
(26:20):
the policies and the strategies
that you need to put in place.
But again also motivating staff,
motivating students so you know softer
skills as well as getting your curriculum
right and getting your pedagogy right,
so.
Really for me,
I wanted it to encompass,
um,
the entire sort of college
experience no matter what level
of of of staff was involved.
No,
that's fantastic Johnny.
(26:40):
I have read it and it's a real fantastic
snippets in there and just some ideas
in the key, but it makes you think and
that for me is fundamentally anything
that we deal with in further education
is it's that perspective of others which
we can use and reflect and actually how
can is that relevant to me help me use
up to inform my work moving forward.
And this is a great starting point.
So yeah, I'd certainly recommend kind
of listens to to take a look at that
(27:02):
and have a read if it's of interest.
But John, right, afternoon January.
Thank you very much for your time now.
It's been a very, very quick.
Half an hour would be loads and loads
of ideas and topics and snippets
and ideas of of good practice.
And like I said,
I hope it's going to be used
to to our listeners.
So thank very much and cheers for joining us.
Real, real pleasure.
Thank you so much, Johnny.
(27:27):
About.
Hello and welcome to the latest episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast.
The purpose of this podcast is to bring
the force and key topics of conversation
in relation to learning teaching,
to discuss, to break down aspects
of practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to
integrate these into our daily practice.
Today I'm delighted to be joined by
Johnny Cash, Johnny's next bird in the
world of All Things English and maths.
(00:26):
Johnny, good afternoon.
How are you? Hello, Sir. Very well.
How are you? Yeah, great. Thanks.
Not bad for a Friday afternoon.
That's an interesting tape recorded podcast,
but uh, yeah, we're here.
We're committed.
So let's go. Yeah.
So I think for the benefit of the listeners,
kind of both in Scotland,
kind of elsewhere across the UK,
bit of background about yourself,
if you don't mind.
In terms of what's your journey been
to kind of get where you are now.
(00:47):
Yeah, of course I'll.
I'll cut out a bit of being born
and go to primary school.
Go straight to the the
the professional focus.
Um, I was qualified as a
secondary school English teacher.
What feels like a very long time ago
eventually ended up as a as a head
of English in a secondary school.
And then I sort of an opportunity
arose at the college that had
(01:09):
actually been to as a younger man.
Is is head of English and maths.
So went for it,
got it out of a very successful
couple of years and held a similar
position at another college
before eventually ending up as.
Is heritage and land and then assessment
at Newcastle College so fairly,
fairly varied and and some very
interesting and exciting opportunities
(01:31):
along the way thankfully.
That's fantastic.
Thanks, Johnny.
I know we, we,
we spoken quite a lot about, you know,
vocational education more broadly,
but also English, maths.
And that's really the purpose
of today's conversation really,
is to shine a light on,
I guess what your views are,
what your thoughts are,
what your experience has told you
and to provide some some hints,
tips,
perspectives for others that
maybe can listen,
listen and think about how they can,
(01:51):
um reflect on their practice and
potentially look at different ways
of taking their things forward.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I guess you've probably seen
a bit of everything, you know,
kind of work in schools and colleges.
But I think what we'll do is
we'll start with the.
The delivery of standalone
English mascot qualifications.
Yeah,
yeah,
I guess kind of from your views
in the in the college landscape.
Maybe could have they change or
(02:12):
kind of what are your thoughts
around kind of where,
where have you seen that done
particularly well and kind of what other,
what other commonalities there?
Yeah,
I mean I would say certainly this even
within the last few years the standard is,
is improving.
I think you know as you say there's
a greater understanding of what's required,
there's more collaboration
between people within departments.
You know I think in in those worst
(02:33):
case scenarios where we see silos
where perhaps you know different
levels different qualifications
and and you know staff of service.
Different areas of the curriculum
and maybe not talking to each other
and I think that's certainly the
barriers around that are being removed.
And I think, you know,
different colleges within regions
are Speaking of each other.
Nationally there's more of a,
there's more of a forum of
debate and discussion.
(02:54):
Now you know,
people recognize and have a really good
understanding of what their local,
regional and national challenges are.
And there's a lot more conversation
which I think is fantastic.
I think certainly that you know
our collaborative practice of,
you know, making sure you've got a
a varied and engaging curriculum.
And that suits the needs of of all students.
I certainly think that's come a
(03:14):
heck of a long way.
But I think for me,
I think a lot of colleges,
a lot of, a lot of, you know,
leaders, a lot of managers,
a lot of teachers perhaps looking
at what they're doing and and
realizing that actually they maybe
they don't so much and that what
you need to do is just focus on the
basics and get the basics right.
Keep it simple, you know,
keep it so that there's that,
you know, that line of communication
(03:35):
between vocational areas,
between English and math staff,
between students, between parents,
between guardians.
All stakeholders know,
you know what they need to do,
how they need to do it and and you
know how they're going to get there.
So it's really just keep it simple
and just do the basics very,
very well.
No,
I think it's really points out,
I'm gonna go pick up a couple of
those and I think the first bit
(03:55):
there you can identify really is
going to clarity of of rules and
keeping things really, really simple.
And you're right though.
Ecologists and kind of Scottish colleges,
English colleges,
they're very complex beasts and often
they're going to say it's easy for
for things to get lost in the long
grass or kind of lost in translation.
So I think the first point that
gonna pick on there might well be
that that clarity of information
(04:17):
and keeping things really simple.
So I guess what are your thoughts
on that in terms of let's focus
on a luxurious perspective from
now terms of kind of working
with their cohort of learners.
What are you,
what are your thoughts tips or views
there to kind of aid that with students?
Yeah,
yeah well I think.
You know as you say very very complex
based Fe colleges and rightly so.
I mean some of these organizations
(04:38):
dealing with 10s of of millions
of pounds and you need to be,
you need to be a complex
base to make sure
that the right things are happening
at the right times from a number
of perspectives whether that's you
know basic compliance teaching and
learning achievement whatever it is.
I think for me it's having that overall
vision that overarching vision of you
know this is this is how we approach
things not just from a perspective of of
(04:59):
compliance and data and planning but also.
An ethos and a vision,
these are the things that we're going to
do and This is why we're going to do them.
And everybody within the organization
knows what those things are.
You know, there's you trim the
fact there are no processes,
no policies, no actions,
no projects.
There's nothing there that doesn't add
to a positive outcome for students,
(05:20):
whether that is a qualification or
whether that is just being able to do
things very much more in a sophisticated
manner than you could a year ago.
So I think where we look at planning,
making sure that it's.
You know, tight enough so that everybody's
got a general picture of what they should
be doing and when they should be doing it.
But loose enough that individual Alexis
can do that with their own flavor,
(05:41):
in their own way, in their own style, in it.
You know, really simple example.
I'll make a lesson.
I'm, I, you know, present that lesson.
And it's, it's a fantastic lesson.
I might give that exact same planning to you.
And you struggle to present
that lesson and vice versa.
And I've seen that, and we all have.
So making sure there's a framework in
place for planning so people know what to
do when they're doing it, basic timelines.
(06:01):
There for everybody to see.
So we all know there's going
to be a mock On this date.
We all know there's, you know,
gonna be these key events
throughout the year.
Whether that's as I say an assessment
or whether that's a, you know,
a some enrichment in sport,
which means load,
these students are going to be there.
So not just in English or maths,
but everywhere.
And I think also that tracking and
(06:22):
assessment again is as simple as possible,
but that the individual lecturers
are feeding into that bigger system.
So you know,
you have lectures feeding maybe to a deputy.
Department who then reported or head of
department so that you have overview
and oversight of what you need to,
no matter what your perspective is.
What kind of hour in a little bit on
(06:43):
kind of the classroom practice now,
so individual lectures,
you're actually all kind of fits in?
And I know, pardon me,
a lot of kind of practice you identified
there, it sounds really simple,
but that's the most effective elements,
you know,
in terms of those effective routines, right?
A lot of the anecdotal feedback
I've kind of heard of,
from speaking to lecturers,
(07:03):
speaking to students at times,
is that English and maths is
harder to teach because
straight where there's a negative
stigma from you because what I've got
to do this again, I'm not very good at.
I've done this at school,
I've done this elsewhere.
So guess what are the thoughts of?
What are the tips there for a lecturer,
for a teacher, I think, right.
How can how can they build that
and develop those routines or
(07:23):
behaviors with their students?
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's there.
There's obviously the the best.
Talk English and math stuff.
But there's also the stuff that you you
would say is good practice everywhere.
So having very high standards
doesn't matter what you teaching,
if you've got very high standards,
if you're fair, if you've got empathy,
if you can break things down to you know,
you hear sort of worst cases,
(07:44):
as you know, we've had the discussion,
you hear this, they should know that.
They should know how to do that.
Yeah, well, they don't to teach them.
It's not about your sort of, you know,
should have this, should have that.
Just break it down.
I think also from an English
and maths perspective,
aligning yourself with, you know,
the ethos and the values of the curriculum
area and working closely with them,
you know,
(08:04):
can you get involved in induction processes?
Can you do it?
Really brief presentation in
vocational areas and just,
you know,
let students know that you've got
a close relationship with you,
had a construction with construction
letters that you understand what the
challenges are and contextualizing properly.
And and not sort of,
you know putting putting
crossword in the middle of a of a
(08:26):
construction lesson and saying that
that's embedded and vice versa.
Not you know throwing around a
couple of construction examples,
actually working with construction
staff and your hairdressing
staff to properly embed and and
get those top tips in there.
So for me I think the basics
have those high standards.
Enough empathy for your students.
Make sure that you you're breaking
down the barriers and sort of chunking
(08:47):
where you need to and differentiating
to their level and despite what you
think there should be or where you know,
the national curriculum
might say there should be.
And that kind of really builds
kind of point that that's been
discussed quite a bit this year.
But I guess it's always been relevant
especially in this mass is around a
really effective initial assessment,
no, but, but I'm talking here, yes,
you might do the college based approach
(09:09):
but I think more than ever now,
but also some massage,
but now more than ever it's really
important that individual with your cohort,
you do a very thorough in-depth
initial assessment.
Really disagree.
I think again,
well,
it's a tough one because it depends what
your definition of thority is I think.
You know any initial assessment where
you are assessing them sort of broadly
(09:29):
across the skills that they are going
to need to be successful and having seen
that assessment you will have a, you know,
a solid idea of what strength areas for
improvement and what the next steps are.
Personally, you know, think about it just
me days in a school where it's at times,
you know they have a transition week
from year 60, year seven and you know
you'd be asked to spend the full week
asking them to do mock assessments.
(09:50):
I'd get more out of a 5 minute conversation
with them on the door than I would
out within an hour mock assessment.
And I think similar I think that there
is absolutely a place for the you know
the the more formal the computer based
initial assessment that you know a lot of
colleges have as a as a mandatory step.
But I think also as you say you've you've
got to have that time that snapshot at
(10:11):
the beginning of that first lesson um.
But it you know it can't be an hour
and a half mock because again you
want to standards and you don't want
students coming out with a GCSE exam
or a you know an assessment whatever
that may be in the summer then coming
into an initial assessment then coming
into your lesson and doing.
Other assessment,
you've gotta break away from that,
you know, heavy, sort of really in-depth,
(10:32):
massive, lengthy and it's gotta
just be low stakes but high impact.
Absolutely.
It all comes back. Purpose.
What's the purpose if you
do something with it?
And Grace, you're absolutely right.
The kind of first four,
six weeks of an academic session.
Yeah.
Last thing you wanna do is just kind of
break students down by doing an assessment
after assessment after assessment.
And you're right,
that conversation or something
that can really help you build that
(10:53):
relationship with the students is is
more impactful than anything else.
Yeah.
And by no means am I saying,
um, you know,
stop doing initial assessments
and just have a chat with them.
Uh,
just that there there are many components
and we have to get a holistic viewpoint
and having a discussion and just,
you know,
watching what they can do and watching
their interactions within the first
session builds up that picture.
(11:15):
And I'm a former principal
of mine kind of identify.
Look we're not teaching this maths,
we're making students literate
numerous and that's absolutely fine.
That's kind of what we need to be doing.
You know it's not a stand alone
part of their their stubby,
it's an it's absolutely fundamental
point right there in terms of
the communication across the
college across different areas.
But I always go back to
(11:36):
the individual actually.
What can you do and what Scottish
colleague will hate me for
saying this but I still wanna.
Garth Southgate,
when he came out as England manager,
the term he used was owned.
The process.
Yeah.
And that's kind of what we can
do is actually we can own our
own space with our students.
You know, some of those points that you
mentioned there are particularly key in the
kind of ones that really draw back out.
Still again we mentioned is
keep it really simple. Yeah.
(11:57):
Look at your curriculum and say,
you know we're doing this on this day
is going to help young people that win,
prove is going to help students to improve.
Is it gonna help any. You know,
apprenticeship apprentices to improve.
And if the answer is no,
you've either got to scrub what it
is or you've got to put a follow
up in there so that it's valuable.
So as you'll see an initial assessment,
if you just, you know, take it,
you do it and sits on the shelf.
Is it useful?
(12:17):
No.
So you've either got to scrub it or
you've got a plan in some activity
where you analyze what is being produced
and you put some actions in place.
Whether that is an intervention,
whether that is an adaptation
of your curriculum,
you've got to do something with the
numbers that you constantly have.
And that's it.
And there's been a lot of research
(12:38):
again across the piece around a key
thing for English and maths delivery
and success within the college
sector is what, repeated practice.
Yeah, the agree, disagree.
What are your thoughts around that?
I have these discussions often with
I've got you know got a few friends
who work in primary school and they
tell me you know a lot of a lot of
different things have come out over
the years around you know timetables
(12:58):
or basic rules right away to to
year six or you know the the end
of primary or even in the middle
school role-playing and always works.
And I think it is our job to make
rote learning interesting what
I call Gorilla rote learning.
As long as the students don't
know it's rote learning I think
that's probably the way to go.
If they're coming and saying we're
doing this again you've lost them.
(13:19):
So I think.
Making sure with it, yes,
there's repetition,
but it is engaging and it is,
you know, differentiated.
And it is creative enough that
the students don't realize it.
Because let's have it right when you're
in a recent position or you're in poor 16,
there should hopefully be no new content.
There shouldn't be any new content,
so all of it is repetition.
(13:40):
So I think the trick to to good
practice in poor 16 is that the
students don't realize this.
And that's where it comes back to
you know I guess my partner can
effective initial assessment because
it will make a really simple notes
in the case let's say in English has
12 blocks of learning or 12 things
that learners should be able to do.
If initial assessments really
effective you identify student is
great at six of those but needs
(14:00):
to focus on the
other six then that kind of tells
us what kind of Lesson plan our
strategies with learners to focus on
those areas on that theme not stuff.
Workloads are a huge challenge right
now it always has been but also
because of COVID because of different.
Um, process. Different challenges in
evolution of College in terms of systems,
approaches and so on and so
(14:22):
forth and less time.
I guess technology may help to
solve some of those time issues,
yeah, other strategies as well.
So I guess for English and math teachers,
well listen to this,
I had lunch mass.
What are your thoughts around
that in terms of what again what
tips or what advice might you have
around approaches to to either
being more efficient or using
(14:43):
technology to support efficiency?
Exactly the same as the other.
I think what we've got to see is,
you know, as you know,
technology is is no magic bullet.
If it's sort of it,
it is likely the technology and the
the most useful and that sort of
best technology is just going to
supplement the things that you would
do in anyway that was successful.
And don't get sucked in by the gimmick.
(15:06):
Don't have you know sort of you know
your your reference in 12 apps and and
you know 15 different YouTube channels.
Keep it simple, use it as supplement the
good practice that you've already got.
So again,
we know low stakes quizzes work really well.
Set it up on Microsoft forms,
set it up on Google Classroom.
It's self marking.
It does something that you
were already doing,
(15:26):
but takes the workload off you.
If we're introducing, I mean,
you know some of the gimmicky
elements where we're, you know,
trying to crowbar too many things in,
you're gonna make it too complex
and it just isn't going to happen.
So use technology to supplement the
quality practice that you already had.
And it goes back to that magic word again.
Purpose. You know, what's the point again?
(15:48):
If you're not gonna use it, don't do it.
It's not going to add value.
Don't do it.
But in the same breath,
as there's a lot of things out,
there's been a huge amount of
developments over the last 18 months,
more so than last 10 years,
that might allow that increased
levels of efficiently efficiency
rather than reduce your workload.
But again, it's about the purpose,
about how it fits.
And I know again different approaches
(16:09):
taken by by elections in the past
have been really throw up their
curriculum and look at the actual what
will not be teach, what do I eat?
Goes back to what you were saying before.
Court the Court of the car, it's.
And again as you say it, if there's you,
you should never ever, ever me.
You should never,
ever,
ever introduce anything that is either
not going to replace what you've already got.
(16:30):
I am all cut down on workload in the long
run because of everything.
No matter if you know if it
will overtake something.
Introducing at the beginning will be
a little bit of extra work as long
as it makes something else obsolete.
So whatever you bring in should get
rid of someone else. Absolutely.
And what I would say is again it takes,
I think intent to do is but we've
got the technology available now.
I know most colleges use Microsoft Teams.
(16:51):
I'll kind of Google Classroom or
actually there's an abundance of of
online materials out there or materials
created over the last 18 months
where you might be able to develop
a mixtape approach of students here
as well in terms of their own across
whatever it is that you feel those
key concepts that you need students
to progress with for their mass
delivery of their English delivery
where you can kind of the same poor
(17:13):
students to there as well kind of.
Relinquishes over time, come back.
That's a sustainability point
you just mentioned there.
Yeah, there's some huge opportunities where.
You can actually collaborate as
you've just alluded to again.
With others in your college or outside
of your college because we're all
teaching the same aspects of mass,
the same aspects of English.
But yes we want to make it
relevant to other students.
But there's a huge opportunity there
(17:34):
to do something that takes a bit
of time to invest in but will save
us a lot of time in the long run.
Well, I think this is, this is the positive.
I mean, you know,
offered research paper recently
and there's been others,
government white papers have come
out that have referenced the
opportunity of research and F8I think
that in itself is slowly changing.
So access to research and don't just
stick to you know further educational post.
(17:55):
Thing where we're looking at assessment.
It doesn't look massively different
secondary schools or middle schools,
primary schools look for those key tenants.
Look for the you know the elements
the the pillars that it's telling
you what works and what doesn't and
use that to guide you practiced.
Because I think where we talk about
tech you know you get you get people
in education who just think if I
buy 40 iPads that will fix the
(18:15):
problem and things will improve.
Well what are you gonna do with the iPad.
You know what is it you know if you
got any specific apps is there a
specific purpose to that or do you
just think getting you know getting
a laptop in or fix a problem because
unless you've got as you say.
Purpose,
but unless it replaces something else,
it warned.
That's it ultimately draws back
to the effect of understanding
application of pedagogy,
which is kind of what we talked all
(18:35):
along through this podcast series.
And, and really,
yeah,
education is made more comments
by lots and lots of things.
And this is meant to be a criticism.
And it's about 10 of us as
practitioners reflect and think,
yeah, what difference can we make?
You know, everything that you said
that the last 20 minutes have
been really pertinent. Yeah, man.
Conscious of time vocational programs.
So I'm a construction extra.
(18:58):
A lot of what I hear,
and this is my construction,
a lot of what I hear, vocational practices.
That's not my job.
When actually it's everyone's job to
make our students more literate and
numerate to progress into their career.
So I guess what your views are,
what kind of what are your top tips or
advice or games or how we phrase it,
people thinking that actually
I'm running this last teacher.
I struggle with this myself.
(19:19):
Why should they start?
How could they do it? Yeah,
I think for me you've you've gotta be open.
You've gotta be honest with
yourself about your own level.
And I think you've,
you've gotta find a way to
identify what that level is.
Whether that is you know and you know again
you don't have to do this but you know as a,
as a construction lecture.
I was not sure where your level could you
sit down and do that same initial assessment?
Uh,
it's 2025 minutes.
Give you a really quick idea of what
(19:40):
you need to work on because you know
we talked about that's not my job.
We've got a professional
accountability and you've got a
professional responsibility to improve
yourself as well as your students.
And if you're not where you
need to be for English.
That's that's fine,
but it's not fine to do nothing about it.
So I think identify what your own level,
what your own standard is.
I think you've got to work with your
English and maths practitioners.
And for me it's it's about consistency.
(20:02):
So if we're in construction,
you know,
there's there's a there's you know
we're building something that
requires trigonometry to make
sure it doesn't fall over.
How is that being taught?
Because lately they've been taught,
the students are being taught
it one way and secondary,
maybe three or four,
depending upon how many teachers they had
and what the ages of those teachers were.
They've then getting taught a different way.
From the poor 16 practitioner and
(20:23):
then another way again with the
construction practitioner if you can
just have a really quick conversation
can I have a look at your resources,
share those resources,
embed those resources that'll take you 30
seconds to where e-mail or have a chat.
Straight away that student gets two
hits of the same method if you can
you know hopefully space that out
across your your respective curriculums.
(20:45):
It's been reinforced again
that gorilla rote learning,
they don't realize they're getting taught
exactly the same thing and exactly the same.
Way they don't realise that,
but it helps embed it.
Nothing.
I would say something and that it's
also worth just spending 10 minutes
reflecting on your cooking Alaska 12
weeks I think actually where did
I teach math because I think what
lectures are surprised that firstly
is is how much the the teaching this
(21:06):
must naturally part of their program
absolutely kind of key terms and
spellings and definitions you know
that's a starting point definitely
and signposted and there's you know
there is the rote learning and again
this doesn't have to be a sort of you
know two day conference where we all
we all allowed to a hotel somewhere it
put a call in you know go to the cafe.
You bring this game alone and
(21:26):
I'll bring a pen, right?
There's where it's naturally occurred,
there's where it's naturally occurring.
I'll send you what I've got.
Instant consistency.
And that's the key bit.
It's a natural occurrence because I
know I still got back to an observation
of it was actually pure observation.
But the lecture, I kind of felt that
they had advertised the students.
That's English must say.
Actually, you're doing this for us.
(21:47):
What we're going through,
but it's actually would do this
as part of our daily practice
and that's the key bit for us.
Firstly, again as a whole workforce
having that awareness,
having that confidence,
you absolutely right there.
But can I have a conversation,
I'm struggling on this,
but how can I do it better?
But the third but kind of most important,
which is where you get the
hook with the students,
which is rather vocational expert
unless they have a slight advantage.
(22:08):
Sometimes English must stand alone lecturers.
If students are there for construction
or for their for their hair and beauty,
think about how.
What's actually really needed
within the workforce,
within the industry and draw back,
you know, and again,
the the things that I think too often
we refer back to the, you know,
the levels in the programs and the
courses and the qualifications.
(22:29):
If again that construction example,
you know, I'm going to ask you
as a student and I'm a lecturer,
how long do you think that'll take?
That's maths.
His estimation number,
time, quantity,
you know,
if there's any sort of conversation going on,
any form of message being
communicated that English,
and maybe actually think of it less
as maths and English and think of
it more as literacy and numeracy.
(22:51):
Absolutely right.
No, that's a really,
that's an exercise.
Like I said,
I'd implore people who are listening
to this to do that.
It's a spend even just 10
minutes I drive home or walking
the dog or however you listen.
Actually well where have a.
Made my students more literate,
more numerate this week or last
week or actually hopefully no,
we're short on time.
But the one example I always go back to
that helps people that realize this is,
(23:11):
you know, we talk about,
talk about English, talk about,
you know,
qualifications.
If you think back to being say 9 or
10 years old and you've got to cross
the road, you've got to estimate wind speed,
you've got to estimate car speed,
estimate the people around you,
you know many, many variables,
how quick you will need to be,
how much you may need to improve or
quicken your pace if the cars coming.
You do all of those calculations
as a sort of 78910 year.
(23:32):
In a fraction of a second and you're then
going to say is a 16 year old after you
know 10 and 12 years of of of education
within you know schools and colleges,
also outside where parents, carers,
guardians, we friends, you,
you do these you know constant calculations.
You do that fraction of a
second and it's a 16 year old.
You can't do long division.
It's it's just practice.
It's happened to behavior.
(23:53):
That's what comes back to you now.
It's really really interesting points.
We have to follow up with another
conversation at different time.
And Johnny I must say
you've done really well.
We're going 25 minutes
without mentioning your book.
We couldn't finish this without
kind of sharing this with with with
kind of people listening to this.
So obviously you've got a
wealth of experience you know,
with English and maths and obviously
you've kind of ended up on,
(24:13):
ended up not finish your journey completely.
Yes.
The next step your journey
has been to develop a book.
So just work quickly share a
little bit about what that is
where that came from kind of what?
Yeah.
Yeah ended up do you do you
know something I don't.
So I think it was just it was it was
roughly the first lockdown I was
head of English and math department
at the time and actually because
I came in from secondary schools I
(24:34):
I sort of put myself out there and
said during the beginning of the
journey in FA you know I need a bit
of advice here you know how would you
do things what works for you because
again that possibly your research.
So I just reached out to as many
people as I could and you know making
phone calls emails LinkedIn turning
up it it it colleges and and just
having a poke around what they do
and it it tended to be you know
when we were going through that.
(24:55):
Just take your test grade process
was getting a lot of messages lot of
calls and and I thought actually you
know I may have some some knowledge
you know I've I've collected all
these ideas from these people
who are better than I am maybe I
should put them in one place then.
So yeah I had a chat with the the
wonderful people at McGraw Hill they were
happy for to you know move forward with
(25:17):
it and and wrote it over that summer.
So yeah improving maths in English in
further education practical guide was.
Sorted and released in June this year.
Fantastic and I'm looking to spend my,
my my hard earned pennies on that
Johnny what would I find what's within
that is it kind of is a wide range of
(25:40):
strategies ideas potential solutions
there for individuals in the workforce.
Yeah well it's pretty much I mean it's
a it is just that it is that practical
guide for people at all levels.
So there's there's so much in there
for for lecturers because as you know
as I was ahead of English and maths
I still made sure that I thought I
thought it was important that you
know it was visible that I was doing
that and also for me to understand
personally what the challenges
(26:00):
were that lecturers were facing.
And what the solutions could
be sort of trial and myself.
And so there's there's so much in there
around you know quick wins and and
cutting workload while getting really
you know massive impact in assessment.
There's a lot in there about
behavior management.
There's elements in there for
middle and senior leaders around
organizing a curriculum,
around timetabling around you know
(26:20):
the policies and the strategies
that you need to put in place.
But again also motivating staff,
motivating students so you know softer
skills as well as getting your curriculum
right and getting your pedagogy right,
so.
Really for me,
I wanted it to encompass,
um,
the entire sort of college
experience no matter what level
of of of staff was involved.
No,
that's fantastic Johnny.
(26:40):
I have read it and it's a real fantastic
snippets in there and just some ideas
in the key, but it makes you think and
that for me is fundamentally anything
that we deal with in further education
is it's that perspective of others which
we can use and reflect and actually how
can is that relevant to me help me use
up to inform my work moving forward.
And this is a great starting point.
So yeah, I'd certainly recommend kind
of listens to to take a look at that
(27:02):
and have a read if it's of interest.
But John, right, afternoon January.
Thank you very much for your time now.
It's been a very, very quick.
Half an hour would be loads and loads
of ideas and topics and snippets
and ideas of of good practice.
And like I said,
I hope it's going to be used
to to our listeners.
So thank very much and cheers for joining us.
Real, real pleasure.
Thank you so much, Johnny.
(27:27):
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