February 10, 2023 • 30 mins
In this episode, we talk to Boyd Stewart, lecturer at Edinburgh College. The conversation focusses around Boyd’s experiences of how his practice has evolved over time and how COVID and the cost of living crisis has shaped this more recently. Boyd reflects on the particular challenges of delivering a practical course remotely and with limited access to physical workspaces. The discussion also covers a switch to a focus on meta-skills and readiness to work.
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(00:07):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast.
The purpose of this podcast is to bring to
the fore some key topics of conversation
in relation to learning and teaching,
to discuss and break down aspects
of practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to integrate
these into our daily practice. Today,
I'm delighted to be joined by Boyd Stewart.
Lecture enough college and
(00:28):
we'll be discussing really,
Boyd's teaching practice and.
The last few years have helped to shape
his practice. So, Boyd, good morning.
How are you? Good morning.
I'm fine, thank you very much.
Pleased to be here.
I'm delighted to join us, Boyd.
And I think it's probably
useful to start off with,
if you don't mind just sharing a little
bit about kind of what your role is,
what your background is and kind
of what you do. Embrace college.
OK.
I've been teaching for 25 years and I
(00:51):
teach specialist subject and particularly
confectionery Edinburgh College,
which is a HNC level course.
Over the years I've talked various
amounts of different courses,
from learning support all the way
up to HNC professional cookery.
Not fantastic.
So 25 years,
(01:11):
I bet there's lots that you've
seen over that period of time,
lots of changes,
lots of things that have worked,
lots of things that have come
around in a circle again.
So yes, I think I'm going to start
with a really broad question, so.
How do you think your teaching
practice has evolved over your career?
(01:32):
Well,
like I said,
it's it's been a long career
I've I've delivered a,
a a range of courses and I've talked to
numerous different amounts of courses
through different awarding bodies.
And I think that's one thing
that's kind of gone in a cycle.
You know, we started when I first started,
we had a particular awarding body
and we've gone on to other awarding
(01:54):
bodies and we found ourselves back
at the original warding bodies again.
I think that um,
both me and the learners and their
colleagues have have have just seen
a vast change in the way that the
delivery model has has come about.
I think more recently with with COVID
and with the now this year with the
(02:17):
economic situation that we're having
to think even more about our delivery.
Knowing this, reading some points here
and let's dig into that a little bit.
So you touched upon COVID,
you stole my Thunder a little bit.
So in terms of.
Yeah,
so,
so COVID obviously threw everything
up in the air and and and it changed
everything that we know and deliver.
So let's start with quote.
How I guess how was that for you?
How did that change your delivery
(02:40):
models and delivery practice?
Well, COVID for us was,
and I'm,
I'm sure a lot of my or your
listeners will empathise with this,
is that we thought it was gonna
be a couple of weeks.
And for me personally, I remember,
I remember the day I was teaching a
(03:00):
practical class and I was told that.
When you finish up,
you will not be returning to the
classroom and it was as as blunt as that.
Now, fortunately for us it was in March,
so we coming towards the end of our
course so that the learners and that
particular course weren't may get affected.
However, we still hadn't completed
all our assessments and yeah, it was.
(03:22):
It was quite a shock.
So we went from teaching practical subjects
to not teaching practical subjects,
which meant we had to then try.
And. Crossover learning and
assessments successes and try to.
Put them towards.
(03:43):
Other parts of the course that
perhaps we could crossover results
and to finish off all our sort of
underpinning knowledge part of it
we literally had to learn how to.
Teach online.
And for us that was was massive
because we didn't have the technology,
we didn't have the understanding of teams.
(04:04):
I think like a lot of people,
we didn't start with teams,
we started with with their Google.
Right. OK, Google Classroom.
Yeah, Google Classroom.
And it was, it was horrendous.
It was really, really horrendous.
And we got through it.
But.
Luckily,
our students went along with us
and we got there in the end.
But then it meant we had to develop
(04:25):
a whole range of teaching material
for the following year because it
became clear that we were not going
to be back on campus anytime soon.
Yeah, no, I think that's really interesting.
Yeah,
there was that initial shock and
then there was realization while
this is more than two weeks.
There's a saving them petrol law
then far outweighed by great home
ago engage with all these learners in
(04:46):
this medium then for a significant
period of time and you absolutely
touched upon that next bit there is,
right.
Well,
the next element session was
starting afresh online.
So how did that go we.
Our course is built as two parts my
my course is very practical course
so it's it's teaching it's teaching
practical skills and and I'm I want
to talk about that a little bit
(05:07):
later on and and how I've developed
the changing my my approach to teaching.
The other part is underpinning knowledge
you know the underpinning knowledge
generally was teach something and
then test it and teaching something
online where 85% of your learners.
Weren't face to face through what
they might have the microphone on,
(05:28):
but they certainly weren't
prepared to have the camera on.
And I'm also gonna be joked and
I'm sure other teachers being
the same as cause of falling.
They're betting their pajamas while they
were while they were listening to us.
But it was really, really,
really difficult to actually
engage with the students and to.
When in my particular subject,
when I teach, um, underpinning knowledge,
(05:49):
it's generally done in the kitchen.
So it's done in a side
or in conversations or.
Micro demonstrations or you know a
student asks the question and I'll
maybe just developed the question
and and and speak to the whole group
rather than just that student.
So a lot of that learning was done.
In the kitchen and it was naturally cooling,
(06:11):
whereas I had to then go and write a plan,
write a lesson.
To pass on that knowledge for
them to learn to be tested because
they weren't doing the.
They weren't doing the the same
amount of practical and we we
were quite lucky that we had.
We had this dispensation we could
bring as soon as we were allowed to
(06:32):
bring students back into the kitchen.
Then we did.
However, we still had to practice
the the two metre rule.
So instead of having 14 students
in the kitchen, I had 6.
Which meant I had three groups
of students per week.
So instead of teaching them 18 hours a week,
I was teaching them six hours a week.
(06:53):
And then the rest of the time was what
we now we call it blended learning,
but, you know, we were,
I was trying to give them activities to do.
Outside.
The actual practical classroom.
And again that was challenging the the the
end result for us was that we we only.
We only gave him that award
(07:14):
based on the minimum that was
acquired by SQA which was 12,
as well as we actually deliver
18 units on our course which
makes it a full time course,
so by delivering the 12 units.
But what I was forced to do,
I was forced to take away two probably the
key units that the students really wanted,
which for my course was.
(07:34):
Spanish chocolate skills and advanced
sugar and pasty I skills because
they were quite intensive and they
just did trying to to develop that.
So,
so the F finished with with those groups
of students getting just the minimum
credits that was required for the award,
which was, which was a shame.
It really was, you know. Yeah.
And it's a real difficulty you know.
(07:54):
But I think it was more of a needs
must kind of take with. Yeah.
Go to Bob, kind of really interested.
You kind of alluded to one or two
of these bits already, you know,
and as always kind of professional,
um, practitioners,
we're always reflecting and I
know you had touched upon in
terms of moving forward.
So what I'm keen to know is kind
of based upon your learning from
the 25 years as well as with COVID,
(08:16):
kind of what principles do you now put
at the forefront of your teaching practice?
I think.
I recently I recently did a a course
on critical and creative teaching
and what what I I kind of was
heading this way myself is because
I think over the years that I've
(08:39):
taught when when we've had sort of
low engagement or or high dropout
rate or you know where we've
not had the successes we want,
we've tended to blame the student
for that and not and not look
at ourselves and not reflect.
And perhaps it was our course content,
or the way we delivered the course,
or even just personalities.
(08:59):
We we can we kind of thought that we were.
We were better than that, that we were.
It wasn't our fault if a
student didn't engage with us.
I thought that Poly ring a bell
with with a with a few people and
I'm not suggesting that that's
approach that everybody takes.
I think there are there people
take a different approach but I I.
(09:21):
When when I was doing this course, I I was.
I did quite a lot of research and I I
came across a paper written in 1957.
So, you know, it wasn't a new thought.
And, and it was a it was actually
a lecturer in Australia talking
about teaching carpentry skills.
And what he concluded in this paper was that.
(09:45):
We can't teach.
Fine developed skills in 36 weeks in college.
It's just impossible and that
the emphasis needs to be on the
employer and the apprenticeships
to actually develop these skills.
And what we should really be looking
at is we should be more looking at meta
skills and capabilities and getting
(10:07):
getting students ready for work.
But really what we're saying is that.
Most. Most.
Schoolchildren and and college leavers leave.
Their education and about 50% or 58%
of them aren't ready for work because
(10:28):
they haven't developed these skills.
So I think over the last few
years that's where I focused is,
is is look at capabilities,
you know look at things like communication,
problem solving, resilience, you know and.
Leadership skills,
all these sort of things and trying
to build them into my lessons.
And consciously when I do a Lesson plan now,
(10:49):
I I look at these things and say
these are the things I want to.
I want to help teach my students
as well as just the the practical
skills because not all of them can
reach the level that that you know,
you've always got your four or
five students who are always better
at at at the practical skills and
just have that natural ability that
you can develop the rest of them.
(11:11):
They can develop the skills
but they're never going to.
They're not gonna win any prizes,
they're not gonna win any competitions,
but they're still competent at what they do.
And I think it's important that you
know when you have students across
the range of abilities that you give
them the same opportunities in terms
of working on their meta skills and
working on their capabilities and do it
consciously and feedback on it as well,
(11:33):
not just the sort of do it silently.
No, I would totally agree with that.
And yeah,
I'm a big believer in actually
what's his step back often.
As a new lecturer or.
Yeah, you getting routine of
delivering a course in the way that.
In a cyclical which might be unit
12345 or you get used to develop those
(11:55):
routines and habits and and you go so,
so far down the path that you get
used to this teaching the course
as opposed to reflecting on.
The skills and the knowledge
required for the student to be
successful for their next step,
which is what you're doing to there.
It's really important that I've
obviously depend on what course we
deliver and then how we deliver that.
Those points are actually the forefront
of our thinking and our curriculum,
(12:16):
our teaching,
our assessment is focused around
the skills and knowledge and I
guess colleagues may think great,
I kind of do that or I don't
know where to start.
So what are your thoughts around that?
How do we do that?
So how do we reflect on our
curriculum vitae and kind of.
OK,
well how do we focus on our
own skills and knowledge?
Would you see from your experience?
(12:39):
I think a great believer in asking the
student or asking the learner, you know what,
what what do you want to learn?
You know, what are you gonna
get out of this lesson?
And and ask yourself what what what
I want to achieve in this lesson?
Because I think sometimes over
the years you do kind of forget,
you know, I mean.
(13:00):
You you teach the same PowerPoint
you teach you know you and you hand
out the same handouts you you follow
the same to a certain extent I do you
know you follow the same teaching plan
and I can imagine people that teach
purely academic subject just wonder
how how much they change it every year.
How do they know?
How do they react to feedback and I'm
(13:23):
sure all colleges have their student
reps and they have their their their
sort of engagement with the students and.
We certainly end with the college we have.
Every course has a student Rep on the course.
Yeah, and they do get training
by our by our excess.
And colleagues and we we should pay
more heat to that and we should pay
(13:45):
more heed to to to the the results
that we got you know if we're only
getting 60% retention why why is that
we really should be looking at that
and say not blame the students you
know and and try and find out what
what we're doing or what we could do
better to actually achieve better
results and listen to the voices
(14:07):
student I just said to students
last week that.
You've got a bigger voice than I have
in terms of of shaping this course,
yeah, because if, if, if,
and I've been doing it for years,
have I go to my line manager and say.
I need more equipment.
The equipment's broken.
I need to replace it. It's the same moment.
(14:29):
We've got no money.
Yeah.
However,
the student goes and said,
I can't do this course because I
can't get a mixer because there's not
enough mixes to go around that has more sway.
So students looked at it from that point
of view in their learning as well,
and we took on board something
that they said perhaps we would,
you know, we would have a bit more
(14:51):
success or we would maybe,
you know, access would be.
Will a little higher than it is.
Well,
that makes total sense because yeah,
there's all these kind of micro
factors as well that kind of
contribute to student engagement,
student satisfaction.
And what I say micro fact is,
you know there are so many components
that we need to consider when developing,
designing and delivering the curriculum
that if actually would be the best
(15:12):
teacher in the world for other equipment,
then unfortunately students can
then develop the skills and reflect
the skills and and so on and so
forth there as well.
And I think it's really important.
To go back to what you're saying prior
in terms of the knowledge and skills
required for their employment offer,
industry offer apprenticeship that
absolutely needs at the forefront
of our thinking when designing,
(15:33):
developing and delivering the curriculum.
And often, I'm not sure about kind
of what your views are on this,
but I feel like they often get overlooked
sometimes in initial assessment
or induction and not for the worse
reasons in the world because we often
want to get straight into the nitty
gritty of delivering the course.
But actually I think if my belief is
(15:53):
if we spend enough time understanding
the skills and knowledge requirements
as being behaviors as well.
Using effectiveness assessment and then
developing the skills on the back of that,
then it's a very clear starting point.
Yeah, yeah, I would.
I would agree with that.
I mean I I think what what I tried to
do over the last few years is I've.
(16:15):
About to try to get students to take more.
Ownership of their of their learning as well.
Yep, and. One of the, one of the key
things I do on my courses they it,
it's, it's a an S curve, level 7.
So it's an HNC level course,
(16:35):
which means it's got it.
It's got some units at at Level 8.
Yeah. So in terms of.
In terms of.
Verbs they need to use,
you know they need to,
they need to understand,
they need to develop,
they need to explain.
It's not just a case of show me a product
and that's that's sufficient for competency.
It's a it's a lot more to that.
(16:56):
So one of the things that they
have to do is they have to,
they have to run the kitchen and
develop a menu for our restaurant.
We have,
we have a restaurant in the college
that's that we use as our realistic
working environment for for our
cookery students and they have to,
they have to develop.
Quite a substantial portfolio
(17:17):
around and designing a menu and
take hundreds of aspects into it.
But one of the things they you
know they they have to look at
working with others and so they
have to take that into account.
So they are thinking about.
Respect,
you know things you know appreciate
that not everybody's got the same
(17:37):
ability as each other and and
and and be respectful of that.
Think of a cultural differences and and.
Look at a lawful lot of unconscious
biases that they have and we all have.
And so, you know,
I spent quite a bit of time on,
on the sort of different types of
unconscious bias that might be in place,
especially when you're being left in charge.
(17:58):
You know, you basically,
it's your kitchen,
you've got 15 colleagues who are
all on par with you.
You have to be the boss for a
week and you have to,
you have to manage that whole sort of thing,
so. So that's, that's, that's a that's
a good way of developing these these
kind of skills because they're, they're,
they're spread over the whole sort of
(18:19):
like first semester learning and the
second semester they put into practice.
So, and I think it's often important
even and again some things,
these things are either assumed
or just done naturally.
It's important to highlight those
as well and that skills development
over time as well with ourselves
first and foremost and then kind
(18:39):
of with extra effort with students
tell them to stand their progress.
So it's really interesting and conscious of.
A bit of advice,
because as a lecturer it's it
can't be so complex because there's
always new things that that.
There are so many things that we
need to consider an often referred
to that as noise sometimes,
(19:00):
which can detract from the
basics of planning,
delivering and assessing and
developing our student skills.
So I guess the final point
for me reading out Boyd is.
What advice would you give to yourself
if you have to start teaching again?
So we've got these 225 years,
so you've seen so many things,
you've had so many qualifications,
you've yeah, that's not even going to that,
(19:22):
but let's just draw back to yeah,
what advice would you give yourself
if you were starting off again?
Well,
I think if if I briefly explain my sort
of path to to how I got into teaching
and where I am now in in my previous.
My my previous work life,
I was a, I was a I went in,
(19:43):
I was in hospitality management side.
So I,
I I did a a degree in hospitality
management and I work basically
on the food and beverage side.
All my creative eventually become a general
manager and I think after sort of four
to five years of being a general manager,
there was something wrong.
You know,
just my career just wasn't.
(20:04):
Wasn't satisfying.
I was in the wrong job, I think,
and I spent all my sort of life training
and I I was doing a lot of training,
so I I.
I decided not to do that anymore and
I I got a I I did a sitting girl 707
three I think it was called, which was,
which was a practical way of teaching.
(20:25):
And I did that at Edward Telford College.
And I learned how to all the
practical ways of teaching,
none of them,
none of the,
none of the other methods which
I I learned all about the sort
of motivational learning,
teaching when I did my TAFE,
which was further down the line.
But I think when I first started,
I was very much it was all about practical.
(20:46):
And I didn't really engage with
students that much because I
was just all I was interested
in was this is your assessment,
show me your competency,
you're competent at that and
move on to the next thing,
move on to the next thing,
then move on to the next thing.
So I think what I started part time
and I think. I I learned from.
(21:08):
I would not disagree, but I learned
for some old school teaching staff.
So when I first started learning,
I was learning from somebody who
had had 35 or 40 years experience.
And they were very,
very sort of set in their ways.
And they didn't change anything.
Everything was done the same sort of way.
So I went along with that.
(21:28):
I think that's what you do when
you knew when you were singing.
And I was definitely learning
all the time and.
I I think.
Now what I would say to myself is.
Engage more with the
student and their person.
Be more empathetic with them.
Find out more about them because
(21:49):
the more you know about them,
the better relationship you have
with them and and when there are
issues and things are not going well,
you can sense it more you because
because you're more engaged
with it with the students.
And I think the other thing is is for me is.
Allow them to take ownership of
(22:09):
their learning what what I what I
used to do as I used to come into
the class and I used to pass out
recipes and say you're doing that,
you're doing that, you're doing that.
And then?
Teach them or help them as
they were going through it.
What I do now is and what I
would say to myself now is.
(22:30):
Give them some credit.
You know,
one of the things I learned on this
course I did recently was was schemas.
And you know, people,
people have got knowledge inside,
they don't actually know they have it
and it's important that you get that
information out and they can build on that.
I think in, in, in, in TQS speak we
(22:50):
called it building blocks or or scaffolding,
but it's the same sort of thing.
But recognize it and actually
explain that to you,
your learners that you know you can.
You you can actually build on what you
already know, and you don't really.
You know.
You don't know.
You know it until I ask you a question,
and then you realize you do know it.
(23:12):
So definitely.
If I was doing things differently,
it would be engaged with the
students in a different way,
completely different way than
they used to engage with them
in the beginning of my career,
where it was very.
Again, I recognize it now
as an unconscious bias.
I'm the boss. I know something.
(23:32):
You don't know it.
You need to learn it from me.
And I think that's kind of
the way you learn it school,
but not the way you should be
learning at college, you know?
And I think it took me
a long time to realise.
But that's the way I was that's
that's the way I've been teaching.
No I think that's that's really
interested about it really kind
of honest and and interesting
(23:53):
reflection and okay shortly growth
again based on my own practice
there as well you know I think it's
difficult because as a new lecture.
You don't really know anything
apart from you kind of your subject
area and you're trying to think
of so many things and as you then
evolve and it's kind of 2345 years,
more things get added on top there as well.
So you're absolutely right and
it's their own kind of reflect
(24:13):
them back to well why are we here?
We're here for the learners and
help them shape them and help
them shape their career.
It's difficult because
every student is different,
every level is different,
qualifications different.
But those overarching principles
you just alluded to I think are are
fundamental and are really interesting
and yeah and they'll kind of
certainly help shape the practice and.
Going to help students on the right
path with their learning journeys.
(24:34):
So.
So I think it's really innocent
and I've been really in this
conversation point and I guess
to kind of bring it to a close,
are there any other reflections
either that you would like to share
or like to think about and what
we've talked quite a bit there and
I'm quite short period of time.
But yeah,
I think there's some really honest
and interesting reflections.
And yeah,
(24:54):
I'm just seeing if there's anything
else for you to kind of add on there.
If not, it's absolutely fine,
but anything else from yourself?
There's a couple of things.
I think the things,
other things that have changed
over the years is is.
I start,
I start my lessons with a
mini lesson quite often.
Yeah.
So something that's not necessarily
related to what what the actual
(25:15):
content of my my Lesson plan is.
And that could just last five or 10 minutes.
And it's kind of just to
introduce a little bit of fun
into the classroom and get,
you know,
get a little bit of maybe get
their brains working a little bit
and they can be a little quiz.
A little storytelling last last
(25:36):
week I asked my my group two.
I gave them 6 words and asked
them to in in less than 50.
Make a story just and you include
these 5 words in it and it
doesn't sound much on its own.
And and they were a bit dubious
when they started,
but by the time we finished
we had some hilarious
stories going and again it's it
(25:58):
develops a relationship that you know,
I can laugh with them and have fun with them.
I mean I did it as well.
It wasn't a case of you're going to do this.
And I think that you know it's some
sometimes rather than just going
straight into a into a lesson and
it gets them a little bit woken up,
a little bit engaged and and I
do that fairly regularly and.
(26:22):
I'm constantly checking for unconscious bias.
I find myself sometimes saying something
that or plan on doing a thing,
saying something and then stop myself.
For from actually, you know,
actually doing it and and there are hundreds.
I didn't realize there are
hundreds of ways you can.
You know, apply a bias that you you
don't even realise you've you've
(26:43):
done it until sort of afterwards, um.
And what what I've tried to do at
the beginning is one of the things
I learned on this course I did
recently was was about neuroscience.
And without going into too much,
you know, about how memory works.
And it's really,
really fascinating and I think.
(27:03):
When when I learned this,
I thought to myself, Oh my God, I've
been teaching the wrong way for 20 years.
Because basically, what do we do?
We we put up a PowerPoint.
And we talk to students for 15 minutes,
we might have a little break in between
and they do a little activity and
then what do you do at the end of it?
We asked them to regurgitate
(27:24):
everything I've learned.
Yeah, actually impossible.
The brain can't possibly retain
that kind of information,
that short term memory.
So I've kind of used that and and
tried to not to do that anymore.
So I wouldn't say I haven't
got rid of PowerPoints,
but I rarely use PowerPoints
and and I used to.
And when you're online,
that's quite hard because it's dead easy to.
(27:46):
Of PowerPoints and and and give them all
this information and expect them to.
Regurgitator,
so I think that's quite important
as well is look at creative ways
that you can pass on information
without using PowerPoints.
No,
I think it's really interesting
nugget and that that just took
me back to front me a moment
about 10 years ago when yet when
(28:07):
I was still full time actually,
and we had a no pens, no PowerPoint.
We, you know,
we challenged all the stuff
and that was extreme,
but they could not deliver with a
PowerPoint and students couldn't use pens.
Now I said that was hard for a rifle team,
but the principle of which is
exactly what you're seeing there.
It encourages you as a practitioner
thing actually.
Well, what is the PowerPoint for?
What are students write down?
(28:27):
How can they learn how they
learn in different ways there?
And I guess it just goes to show.
You can say I lost 30 minute
conversation is all of the different
considerations that we need to consider.
It's the same way to exercise.
You know what I mean as a lecturer and
all the different permutations out there.
And that's why I think it's really
important to draw back those principles
you touched upon earlier around.
(28:47):
We'll try and develop the knowledge
and skills of our student.
How we do that.
There are so many different ways.
But if those things are fundamental,
you touched upon earlier on around the
importance of assessment and feedback,
you know there's a few core principles.
And at the heart of our teaching,
whether depending on our respective
rather of the subject, the level,
uh,
the medium by which we teach that are really,
(29:09):
really important to have at the call
and then those other aspects and
just come around the side there.
So no,
I think that's really interesting and boy,
I'm afraid we've run out of time,
but I think we could talk for another hour
about so many other different things there.
But I just want to thank
you for your input there.
I think it's really interesting
and really insightful and it also
goes to show that, you know,
when people reflect on lecture.
(29:31):
And when people were reflect
on what makes good learning.
Like I said,
it's a highly complicated space
with a lot of noise when actually
if we draw back to some of the
principles that you've just touched
upon there and how that shaped your
career and your teaching experience.
It it it shows actually where we
should focus our time and attention.
So thank you for your time,
but really appreciate it and good luck
(29:52):
for the rest of the academic session.
Hopefully it's positive.
OK. Thank you very much.
I've enjoyed that conversation and
hopefully speak again in the future.
Thank you. Bye. Thank you.
Bye, bye.
About.
Hello and welcome to the latest episode
of the Pedagogy Matters Podcast.
The purpose of this podcast is to bring to
the fore some key topics of conversation
in relation to learning and teaching,
to discuss and break down aspects
of practice and provide snippets,
advice and guidance as to how to integrate
these into our daily practice. Today,
I'm delighted to be joined by Boyd Stewart.
Lecture enough college and
(00:28):
we'll be discussing really,
Boyd's teaching practice and.
The last few years have helped to shape
his practice. So, Boyd, good morning.
How are you? Good morning.
I'm fine, thank you very much.
Pleased to be here.
I'm delighted to join us, Boyd.
And I think it's probably
useful to start off with,
if you don't mind just sharing a little
bit about kind of what your role is,
what your background is and kind
of what you do. Embrace college.
OK.
I've been teaching for 25 years and I
(00:51):
teach specialist subject and particularly
confectionery Edinburgh College,
which is a HNC level course.
Over the years I've talked various
amounts of different courses,
from learning support all the way
up to HNC professional cookery.
Not fantastic.
So 25 years,
(01:11):
I bet there's lots that you've
seen over that period of time,
lots of changes,
lots of things that have worked,
lots of things that have come
around in a circle again.
So yes, I think I'm going to start
with a really broad question, so.
How do you think your teaching
practice has evolved over your career?
(01:32):
Well,
like I said,
it's it's been a long career
I've I've delivered a,
a a range of courses and I've talked to
numerous different amounts of courses
through different awarding bodies.
And I think that's one thing
that's kind of gone in a cycle.
You know, we started when I first started,
we had a particular awarding body
and we've gone on to other awarding
(01:54):
bodies and we found ourselves back
at the original warding bodies again.
I think that um,
both me and the learners and their
colleagues have have have just seen
a vast change in the way that the
delivery model has has come about.
I think more recently with with COVID
and with the now this year with the
(02:17):
economic situation that we're having
to think even more about our delivery.
Knowing this, reading some points here
and let's dig into that a little bit.
So you touched upon COVID,
you stole my Thunder a little bit.
So in terms of.
Yeah,
so,
so COVID obviously threw everything
up in the air and and and it changed
everything that we know and deliver.
So let's start with quote.
How I guess how was that for you?
How did that change your delivery
(02:40):
models and delivery practice?
Well, COVID for us was,
and I'm,
I'm sure a lot of my or your
listeners will empathise with this,
is that we thought it was gonna
be a couple of weeks.
And for me personally, I remember,
I remember the day I was teaching a
(03:00):
practical class and I was told that.
When you finish up,
you will not be returning to the
classroom and it was as as blunt as that.
Now, fortunately for us it was in March,
so we coming towards the end of our
course so that the learners and that
particular course weren't may get affected.
However, we still hadn't completed
all our assessments and yeah, it was.
(03:22):
It was quite a shock.
So we went from teaching practical subjects
to not teaching practical subjects,
which meant we had to then try.
And. Crossover learning and
assessments successes and try to.
Put them towards.
(03:43):
Other parts of the course that
perhaps we could crossover results
and to finish off all our sort of
underpinning knowledge part of it
we literally had to learn how to.
Teach online.
And for us that was was massive
because we didn't have the technology,
we didn't have the understanding of teams.
(04:04):
I think like a lot of people,
we didn't start with teams,
we started with with their Google.
Right. OK, Google Classroom.
Yeah, Google Classroom.
And it was, it was horrendous.
It was really, really horrendous.
And we got through it.
But.
Luckily,
our students went along with us
and we got there in the end.
But then it meant we had to develop
(04:25):
a whole range of teaching material
for the following year because it
became clear that we were not going
to be back on campus anytime soon.
Yeah, no, I think that's really interesting.
Yeah,
there was that initial shock and
then there was realization while
this is more than two weeks.
There's a saving them petrol law
then far outweighed by great home
ago engage with all these learners in
(04:46):
this medium then for a significant
period of time and you absolutely
touched upon that next bit there is,
right.
Well,
the next element session was
starting afresh online.
So how did that go we.
Our course is built as two parts my
my course is very practical course
so it's it's teaching it's teaching
practical skills and and I'm I want
to talk about that a little bit
(05:07):
later on and and how I've developed
the changing my my approach to teaching.
The other part is underpinning knowledge
you know the underpinning knowledge
generally was teach something and
then test it and teaching something
online where 85% of your learners.
Weren't face to face through what
they might have the microphone on,
(05:28):
but they certainly weren't
prepared to have the camera on.
And I'm also gonna be joked and
I'm sure other teachers being
the same as cause of falling.
They're betting their pajamas while they
were while they were listening to us.
But it was really, really,
really difficult to actually
engage with the students and to.
When in my particular subject,
when I teach, um, underpinning knowledge,
(05:49):
it's generally done in the kitchen.
So it's done in a side
or in conversations or.
Micro demonstrations or you know a
student asks the question and I'll
maybe just developed the question
and and and speak to the whole group
rather than just that student.
So a lot of that learning was done.
In the kitchen and it was naturally cooling,
(06:11):
whereas I had to then go and write a plan,
write a lesson.
To pass on that knowledge for
them to learn to be tested because
they weren't doing the.
They weren't doing the the same
amount of practical and we we
were quite lucky that we had.
We had this dispensation we could
bring as soon as we were allowed to
(06:32):
bring students back into the kitchen.
Then we did.
However, we still had to practice
the the two metre rule.
So instead of having 14 students
in the kitchen, I had 6.
Which meant I had three groups
of students per week.
So instead of teaching them 18 hours a week,
I was teaching them six hours a week.
(06:53):
And then the rest of the time was what
we now we call it blended learning,
but, you know, we were,
I was trying to give them activities to do.
Outside.
The actual practical classroom.
And again that was challenging the the the
end result for us was that we we only.
We only gave him that award
(07:14):
based on the minimum that was
acquired by SQA which was 12,
as well as we actually deliver
18 units on our course which
makes it a full time course,
so by delivering the 12 units.
But what I was forced to do,
I was forced to take away two probably the
key units that the students really wanted,
which for my course was.
(07:34):
Spanish chocolate skills and advanced
sugar and pasty I skills because
they were quite intensive and they
just did trying to to develop that.
So,
so the F finished with with those groups
of students getting just the minimum
credits that was required for the award,
which was, which was a shame.
It really was, you know. Yeah.
And it's a real difficulty you know.
(07:54):
But I think it was more of a needs
must kind of take with. Yeah.
Go to Bob, kind of really interested.
You kind of alluded to one or two
of these bits already, you know,
and as always kind of professional,
um, practitioners,
we're always reflecting and I
know you had touched upon in
terms of moving forward.
So what I'm keen to know is kind
of based upon your learning from
the 25 years as well as with COVID,
(08:16):
kind of what principles do you now put
at the forefront of your teaching practice?
I think.
I recently I recently did a a course
on critical and creative teaching
and what what I I kind of was
heading this way myself is because
I think over the years that I've
(08:39):
taught when when we've had sort of
low engagement or or high dropout
rate or you know where we've
not had the successes we want,
we've tended to blame the student
for that and not and not look
at ourselves and not reflect.
And perhaps it was our course content,
or the way we delivered the course,
or even just personalities.
(08:59):
We we can we kind of thought that we were.
We were better than that, that we were.
It wasn't our fault if a
student didn't engage with us.
I thought that Poly ring a bell
with with a with a few people and
I'm not suggesting that that's
approach that everybody takes.
I think there are there people
take a different approach but I I.
(09:21):
When when I was doing this course, I I was.
I did quite a lot of research and I I
came across a paper written in 1957.
So, you know, it wasn't a new thought.
And, and it was a it was actually
a lecturer in Australia talking
about teaching carpentry skills.
And what he concluded in this paper was that.
(09:45):
We can't teach.
Fine developed skills in 36 weeks in college.
It's just impossible and that
the emphasis needs to be on the
employer and the apprenticeships
to actually develop these skills.
And what we should really be looking
at is we should be more looking at meta
skills and capabilities and getting
(10:07):
getting students ready for work.
But really what we're saying is that.
Most. Most.
Schoolchildren and and college leavers leave.
Their education and about 50% or 58%
of them aren't ready for work because
(10:28):
they haven't developed these skills.
So I think over the last few
years that's where I focused is,
is is look at capabilities,
you know look at things like communication,
problem solving, resilience, you know and.
Leadership skills,
all these sort of things and trying
to build them into my lessons.
And consciously when I do a Lesson plan now,
(10:49):
I I look at these things and say
these are the things I want to.
I want to help teach my students
as well as just the the practical
skills because not all of them can
reach the level that that you know,
you've always got your four or
five students who are always better
at at at the practical skills and
just have that natural ability that
you can develop the rest of them.
(11:11):
They can develop the skills
but they're never going to.
They're not gonna win any prizes,
they're not gonna win any competitions,
but they're still competent at what they do.
And I think it's important that you
know when you have students across
the range of abilities that you give
them the same opportunities in terms
of working on their meta skills and
working on their capabilities and do it
consciously and feedback on it as well,
(11:33):
not just the sort of do it silently.
No, I would totally agree with that.
And yeah,
I'm a big believer in actually
what's his step back often.
As a new lecturer or.
Yeah, you getting routine of
delivering a course in the way that.
In a cyclical which might be unit
12345 or you get used to develop those
(11:55):
routines and habits and and you go so,
so far down the path that you get
used to this teaching the course
as opposed to reflecting on.
The skills and the knowledge
required for the student to be
successful for their next step,
which is what you're doing to there.
It's really important that I've
obviously depend on what course we
deliver and then how we deliver that.
Those points are actually the forefront
of our thinking and our curriculum,
(12:16):
our teaching,
our assessment is focused around
the skills and knowledge and I
guess colleagues may think great,
I kind of do that or I don't
know where to start.
So what are your thoughts around that?
How do we do that?
So how do we reflect on our
curriculum vitae and kind of.
OK,
well how do we focus on our
own skills and knowledge?
Would you see from your experience?
(12:39):
I think a great believer in asking the
student or asking the learner, you know what,
what what do you want to learn?
You know, what are you gonna
get out of this lesson?
And and ask yourself what what what
I want to achieve in this lesson?
Because I think sometimes over
the years you do kind of forget,
you know, I mean.
(13:00):
You you teach the same PowerPoint
you teach you know you and you hand
out the same handouts you you follow
the same to a certain extent I do you
know you follow the same teaching plan
and I can imagine people that teach
purely academic subject just wonder
how how much they change it every year.
How do they know?
How do they react to feedback and I'm
(13:23):
sure all colleges have their student
reps and they have their their their
sort of engagement with the students and.
We certainly end with the college we have.
Every course has a student Rep on the course.
Yeah, and they do get training
by our by our excess.
And colleagues and we we should pay
more heat to that and we should pay
(13:45):
more heed to to to the the results
that we got you know if we're only
getting 60% retention why why is that
we really should be looking at that
and say not blame the students you
know and and try and find out what
what we're doing or what we could do
better to actually achieve better
results and listen to the voices
(14:07):
student I just said to students
last week that.
You've got a bigger voice than I have
in terms of of shaping this course,
yeah, because if, if, if,
and I've been doing it for years,
have I go to my line manager and say.
I need more equipment.
The equipment's broken.
I need to replace it. It's the same moment.
(14:29):
We've got no money.
Yeah.
However,
the student goes and said,
I can't do this course because I
can't get a mixer because there's not
enough mixes to go around that has more sway.
So students looked at it from that point
of view in their learning as well,
and we took on board something
that they said perhaps we would,
you know, we would have a bit more
(14:51):
success or we would maybe,
you know, access would be.
Will a little higher than it is.
Well,
that makes total sense because yeah,
there's all these kind of micro
factors as well that kind of
contribute to student engagement,
student satisfaction.
And what I say micro fact is,
you know there are so many components
that we need to consider when developing,
designing and delivering the curriculum
that if actually would be the best
(15:12):
teacher in the world for other equipment,
then unfortunately students can
then develop the skills and reflect
the skills and and so on and so
forth there as well.
And I think it's really important.
To go back to what you're saying prior
in terms of the knowledge and skills
required for their employment offer,
industry offer apprenticeship that
absolutely needs at the forefront
of our thinking when designing,
(15:33):
developing and delivering the curriculum.
And often, I'm not sure about kind
of what your views are on this,
but I feel like they often get overlooked
sometimes in initial assessment
or induction and not for the worse
reasons in the world because we often
want to get straight into the nitty
gritty of delivering the course.
But actually I think if my belief is
(15:53):
if we spend enough time understanding
the skills and knowledge requirements
as being behaviors as well.
Using effectiveness assessment and then
developing the skills on the back of that,
then it's a very clear starting point.
Yeah, yeah, I would.
I would agree with that.
I mean I I think what what I tried to
do over the last few years is I've.
(16:15):
About to try to get students to take more.
Ownership of their of their learning as well.
Yep, and. One of the, one of the key
things I do on my courses they it,
it's, it's a an S curve, level 7.
So it's an HNC level course,
(16:35):
which means it's got it.
It's got some units at at Level 8.
Yeah. So in terms of.
In terms of.
Verbs they need to use,
you know they need to,
they need to understand,
they need to develop,
they need to explain.
It's not just a case of show me a product
and that's that's sufficient for competency.
It's a it's a lot more to that.
(16:56):
So one of the things that they
have to do is they have to,
they have to run the kitchen and
develop a menu for our restaurant.
We have,
we have a restaurant in the college
that's that we use as our realistic
working environment for for our
cookery students and they have to,
they have to develop.
Quite a substantial portfolio
(17:17):
around and designing a menu and
take hundreds of aspects into it.
But one of the things they you
know they they have to look at
working with others and so they
have to take that into account.
So they are thinking about.
Respect,
you know things you know appreciate
that not everybody's got the same
(17:37):
ability as each other and and
and and be respectful of that.
Think of a cultural differences and and.
Look at a lawful lot of unconscious
biases that they have and we all have.
And so, you know,
I spent quite a bit of time on,
on the sort of different types of
unconscious bias that might be in place,
especially when you're being left in charge.
(17:58):
You know, you basically,
it's your kitchen,
you've got 15 colleagues who are
all on par with you.
You have to be the boss for a
week and you have to,
you have to manage that whole sort of thing,
so. So that's, that's, that's a that's
a good way of developing these these
kind of skills because they're, they're,
they're spread over the whole sort of
(18:19):
like first semester learning and the
second semester they put into practice.
So, and I think it's often important
even and again some things,
these things are either assumed
or just done naturally.
It's important to highlight those
as well and that skills development
over time as well with ourselves
first and foremost and then kind
(18:39):
of with extra effort with students
tell them to stand their progress.
So it's really interesting and conscious of.
A bit of advice,
because as a lecturer it's it
can't be so complex because there's
always new things that that.
There are so many things that we
need to consider an often referred
to that as noise sometimes,
(19:00):
which can detract from the
basics of planning,
delivering and assessing and
developing our student skills.
So I guess the final point
for me reading out Boyd is.
What advice would you give to yourself
if you have to start teaching again?
So we've got these 225 years,
so you've seen so many things,
you've had so many qualifications,
you've yeah, that's not even going to that,
(19:22):
but let's just draw back to yeah,
what advice would you give yourself
if you were starting off again?
Well,
I think if if I briefly explain my sort
of path to to how I got into teaching
and where I am now in in my previous.
My my previous work life,
I was a, I was a I went in,
(19:43):
I was in hospitality management side.
So I,
I I did a a degree in hospitality
management and I work basically
on the food and beverage side.
All my creative eventually become a general
manager and I think after sort of four
to five years of being a general manager,
there was something wrong.
You know,
just my career just wasn't.
(20:04):
Wasn't satisfying.
I was in the wrong job, I think,
and I spent all my sort of life training
and I I was doing a lot of training,
so I I.
I decided not to do that anymore and
I I got a I I did a sitting girl 707
three I think it was called, which was,
which was a practical way of teaching.
(20:25):
And I did that at Edward Telford College.
And I learned how to all the
practical ways of teaching,
none of them,
none of the,
none of the other methods which
I I learned all about the sort
of motivational learning,
teaching when I did my TAFE,
which was further down the line.
But I think when I first started,
I was very much it was all about practical.
(20:46):
And I didn't really engage with
students that much because I
was just all I was interested
in was this is your assessment,
show me your competency,
you're competent at that and
move on to the next thing,
move on to the next thing,
then move on to the next thing.
So I think what I started part time
and I think. I I learned from.
(21:08):
I would not disagree, but I learned
for some old school teaching staff.
So when I first started learning,
I was learning from somebody who
had had 35 or 40 years experience.
And they were very,
very sort of set in their ways.
And they didn't change anything.
Everything was done the same sort of way.
So I went along with that.
(21:28):
I think that's what you do when
you knew when you were singing.
And I was definitely learning
all the time and.
I I think.
Now what I would say to myself is.
Engage more with the
student and their person.
Be more empathetic with them.
Find out more about them because
(21:49):
the more you know about them,
the better relationship you have
with them and and when there are
issues and things are not going well,
you can sense it more you because
because you're more engaged
with it with the students.
And I think the other thing is is for me is.
Allow them to take ownership of
(22:09):
their learning what what I what I
used to do as I used to come into
the class and I used to pass out
recipes and say you're doing that,
you're doing that, you're doing that.
And then?
Teach them or help them as
they were going through it.
What I do now is and what I
would say to myself now is.
(22:30):
Give them some credit.
You know,
one of the things I learned on this
course I did recently was was schemas.
And you know, people,
people have got knowledge inside,
they don't actually know they have it
and it's important that you get that
information out and they can build on that.
I think in, in, in, in TQS speak we
(22:50):
called it building blocks or or scaffolding,
but it's the same sort of thing.
But recognize it and actually
explain that to you,
your learners that you know you can.
You you can actually build on what you
already know, and you don't really.
You know.
You don't know.
You know it until I ask you a question,
and then you realize you do know it.
(23:12):
So definitely.
If I was doing things differently,
it would be engaged with the
students in a different way,
completely different way than
they used to engage with them
in the beginning of my career,
where it was very.
Again, I recognize it now
as an unconscious bias.
I'm the boss. I know something.
(23:32):
You don't know it.
You need to learn it from me.
And I think that's kind of
the way you learn it school,
but not the way you should be
learning at college, you know?
And I think it took me
a long time to realise.
But that's the way I was that's
that's the way I've been teaching.
No I think that's that's really
interested about it really kind
of honest and and interesting
(23:53):
reflection and okay shortly growth
again based on my own practice
there as well you know I think it's
difficult because as a new lecture.
You don't really know anything
apart from you kind of your subject
area and you're trying to think
of so many things and as you then
evolve and it's kind of 2345 years,
more things get added on top there as well.
So you're absolutely right and
it's their own kind of reflect
(24:13):
them back to well why are we here?
We're here for the learners and
help them shape them and help
them shape their career.
It's difficult because
every student is different,
every level is different,
qualifications different.
But those overarching principles
you just alluded to I think are are
fundamental and are really interesting
and yeah and they'll kind of
certainly help shape the practice and.
Going to help students on the right
path with their learning journeys.
(24:34):
So.
So I think it's really innocent
and I've been really in this
conversation point and I guess
to kind of bring it to a close,
are there any other reflections
either that you would like to share
or like to think about and what
we've talked quite a bit there and
I'm quite short period of time.
But yeah,
I think there's some really honest
and interesting reflections.
And yeah,
(24:54):
I'm just seeing if there's anything
else for you to kind of add on there.
If not, it's absolutely fine,
but anything else from yourself?
There's a couple of things.
I think the things,
other things that have changed
over the years is is.
I start,
I start my lessons with a
mini lesson quite often.
Yeah.
So something that's not necessarily
related to what what the actual
(25:15):
content of my my Lesson plan is.
And that could just last five or 10 minutes.
And it's kind of just to
introduce a little bit of fun
into the classroom and get,
you know,
get a little bit of maybe get
their brains working a little bit
and they can be a little quiz.
A little storytelling last last
(25:36):
week I asked my my group two.
I gave them 6 words and asked
them to in in less than 50.
Make a story just and you include
these 5 words in it and it
doesn't sound much on its own.
And and they were a bit dubious
when they started,
but by the time we finished
we had some hilarious
stories going and again it's it
(25:58):
develops a relationship that you know,
I can laugh with them and have fun with them.
I mean I did it as well.
It wasn't a case of you're going to do this.
And I think that you know it's some
sometimes rather than just going
straight into a into a lesson and
it gets them a little bit woken up,
a little bit engaged and and I
do that fairly regularly and.
(26:22):
I'm constantly checking for unconscious bias.
I find myself sometimes saying something
that or plan on doing a thing,
saying something and then stop myself.
For from actually, you know,
actually doing it and and there are hundreds.
I didn't realize there are
hundreds of ways you can.
You know, apply a bias that you you
don't even realise you've you've
(26:43):
done it until sort of afterwards, um.
And what what I've tried to do at
the beginning is one of the things
I learned on this course I did
recently was was about neuroscience.
And without going into too much,
you know, about how memory works.
And it's really,
really fascinating and I think.
(27:03):
When when I learned this,
I thought to myself, Oh my God, I've
been teaching the wrong way for 20 years.
Because basically, what do we do?
We we put up a PowerPoint.
And we talk to students for 15 minutes,
we might have a little break in between
and they do a little activity and
then what do you do at the end of it?
We asked them to regurgitate
(27:24):
everything I've learned.
Yeah, actually impossible.
The brain can't possibly retain
that kind of information,
that short term memory.
So I've kind of used that and and
tried to not to do that anymore.
So I wouldn't say I haven't
got rid of PowerPoints,
but I rarely use PowerPoints
and and I used to.
And when you're online,
that's quite hard because it's dead easy to.
(27:46):
Of PowerPoints and and and give them all
this information and expect them to.
Regurgitator,
so I think that's quite important
as well is look at creative ways
that you can pass on information
without using PowerPoints.
No,
I think it's really interesting
nugget and that that just took
me back to front me a moment
about 10 years ago when yet when
(28:07):
I was still full time actually,
and we had a no pens, no PowerPoint.
We, you know,
we challenged all the stuff
and that was extreme,
but they could not deliver with a
PowerPoint and students couldn't use pens.
Now I said that was hard for a rifle team,
but the principle of which is
exactly what you're seeing there.
It encourages you as a practitioner
thing actually.
Well, what is the PowerPoint for?
What are students write down?
(28:27):
How can they learn how they
learn in different ways there?
And I guess it just goes to show.
You can say I lost 30 minute
conversation is all of the different
considerations that we need to consider.
It's the same way to exercise.
You know what I mean as a lecturer and
all the different permutations out there.
And that's why I think it's really
important to draw back those principles
you touched upon earlier around.
(28:47):
We'll try and develop the knowledge
and skills of our student.
How we do that.
There are so many different ways.
But if those things are fundamental,
you touched upon earlier on around the
importance of assessment and feedback,
you know there's a few core principles.
And at the heart of our teaching,
whether depending on our respective
rather of the subject, the level,
uh,
the medium by which we teach that are really,
(29:09):
really important to have at the call
and then those other aspects and
just come around the side there.
So no,
I think that's really interesting and boy,
I'm afraid we've run out of time,
but I think we could talk for another hour
about so many other different things there.
But I just want to thank
you for your input there.
I think it's really interesting
and really insightful and it also
goes to show that, you know,
when people reflect on lecture.
(29:31):
And when people were reflect
on what makes good learning.
Like I said,
it's a highly complicated space
with a lot of noise when actually
if we draw back to some of the
principles that you've just touched
upon there and how that shaped your
career and your teaching experience.
It it it shows actually where we
should focus our time and attention.
So thank you for your time,
but really appreciate it and good luck
(29:52):
for the rest of the academic session.
Hopefully it's positive.
OK. Thank you very much.
I've enjoyed that conversation and
hopefully speak again in the future.
Thank you. Bye. Thank you.
Bye, bye.
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