September 8, 2023 • 29 mins
In this episode, we chat with Paddy Shepperd from Jisc around the emergence of generative AI services such as ChatGPT, and how lecturers and students can respond to opportunities and challenges. Part 2 explores the implications of AI for assessment, and how ethics forms a part of the discussion.
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(00:06):
OK, buddy, welcome back. So aspromised, we're now gonna dive
into assessments and ethics, sokeep this off. There's so much
conversation on assessmentanyway around plagiarism.
Checkers is something the otherI think with AI in general of AI
coming
over the hill, I'm going to sayit was pretty Christmas 2022
kind of becoming moremainstream. It's now kind of
(00:27):
really raised a lot of questionsaround assessment and around
cheating, around plagiarism, butit's much broader than that.
So for I don't want to talkpreviously it's around the
design of assessment and how wecan use AI and to really
change what we think and how wedeliver assessments. So I I
guess the as off what are yourinitial thoughts around that
(00:50):
topic.
So hang on a any teacher, wespend a lot of time thinking
about our assessment methods.For myself, I plan where am I
going to get to, where do I wantto get to and what do I want to
assess And then I work backwardswith my teaching content. There
are some risks certainly withusing generative AI, but there's
also I think this is opportunityto rethink assessments and how
(01:14):
we assess our learners, whichwe've all been speaking about
for a number of years now. Andit's thinking about what's the
best way to live in a worldwhere AI generative AI and be
able to assess my learners andknow that it's authentic
is there work it's up to dateand that they're actually
learning from it not justproducing something. So thinking
(01:35):
about let's how can we we wehave got the power to change the
assessment within our ownteaching, within our own topics.
I've taught IT for example an ITTechnical Support and there was
one part in the specificationwhere learners had to
demonstrate that that keyworddemonstrating that they and they
were given a number of scenariosand they had to resolve a couple
(01:58):
of IT Technical Support issues.Lockdown came along and we were
teaching online and like we
I needed to assess them um butwhat we did, we switched it up
and I had teams meetings and Igave them time beforehand to
research a number of topics andthen in the meeting I gave them
five different one issues andthen they had to explain to me
(02:19):
as if we were face to facebetween two different people at
one side of each side of herdesk and they were really
enjoyed that. So I kept that andthe following year when we were
back into into class it'sthinking about how we can pick
up assessment and it's it's thatholistic assessment. So what
I've done this year in in myteaching was look at thinking
(02:39):
right. I'm teaching
a number of different units andwe're for example covering them
very similar topics, GDPR, dataprotection and so on. How can I
reduce my assessment and alsocover everything. So we've I've
looked at the whole curriculumand we cross mapped as much as
we could and then we I broke itdown to project based learning.
Instead of all the learnershaving the same assignments or
(03:01):
having the same topics, we brokeit down and they for example
designed and developed a game.They chose their game. They had
to project manage that game,let's build, they had to
evaluate their assets. They hadto look at the legal sides of
that and the ethical side ofthat and but it was all
based on their specific game sothat that became holistic. They
wouldn't be able to put that ininto any other into a computer
(03:24):
into any Genji and come out withthose results because it was all
based on their game. So it'spicking up assessment and
changing it in a way andactually I found my that that
helped my marking because I knewI marked a number of assignments
but it covered a number ofdifferent units So it reduced my
workload in that respect. Butalso the learners were far more
(03:44):
engaged than if I taught. Legal,legal and ethical, legal, ethics
and IT. Sorry, human computerinteraction, games design and IT
project management allseparately.
So it's thinking about thedifferent methods that we can
assess them. Um,
it's also I think about havingthose, those discussions with
the learners and and thinking isthis is your work, are you
(04:05):
writing an answer just for anassignment or are they learning
from it? Um, we've had for anumber of years essay mills
learners who have got the moneycould potentially go and buy an
essay. We've had those risks andthose have been getting more and
more
about varied, but the harder topick up as a teacher, unless
(04:26):
you've read one for yourself forexample. So there's also
plagiarism checkers which we'vehad for university level, um
turn in for a number of years.The worry with any generated AI
is Chequers we've got, we've gotAI checkers. However they have
proven that they can also havefalse positives. So I would be
(04:47):
concerned with using a tool thatcheques for generative IAI
checkers for students work, forexample, because it could push
out a false positive and then wecould be
saying to our learner, you know,you've plagiarised, but actually
they haven't. I was reading anarticle yesterday that is that
she was showing that it'smathematically impossible to
(05:08):
actually have any AI checker100% of the time. Correct. So we
we can't rely on that is anotherissue. It's about what we've
done before. It's thinking aboutour assessment method. We did
it, we've done it for a numberof years. It's trusting
ourselves, speaking to ourcolleagues and sharing best
practise and ways we've gotaround it and then actually
looking. Well, hang on a SEC. Mylearners were doing this more
(05:28):
than they did a couple of yearsago, where they were almost
themselves just SA after SAFRSA.
And then I'm thinking about likethat. We are at a stage where we
can with with generative AI. Wecan either do one of three
things, we can either avoid it,we can either outrun it or we
can embrace and adapt it. If weavoid it and we revert, for
(05:50):
example, just to exams, we knowsome people do better in exams.
We also know variety isimportant. But again, the exams
it makes so much focus on onesmall time. If we outrun it and
we use things like Gentry, AIcheckers, they'll always be
ahead of us. Then everybody willalways get ahead of us. We've
had this, you know, Google,
(06:10):
essay mills and asking aboutlearners to reference all the
way through. But if we embraceand adapt it and if we try and
get an understanding of it, itwill be much easier. And we
think about I need to make thisassessment authentic. I need to
make sure it's my learners,Let's embrace AI, let's utilise
that for our learners and alsolet's let them embrace that for
(06:31):
maybe something like checkingtheir learning, checking their
proof, reading. They could useit to proofread before they hand
in. And that is a simplechanging that's a game changer.
Before they'd have to paysomebody to you to have a
proofreading service whereas nowthey can use it.
It has been around for a numberof years but it's just thinking
(06:51):
about what way we can impact itour on our learning. We've also
got things like a number ofyears ago we were we looked at
BAMMA model and and improvingour learners digital literacy
because we know they need it forthe workplace. So before we had
substitution S from summertechnology acts direct
substitute with no functionalchange. So maybe they would be
(07:12):
typing a Word documentaugmentation technology access
direct substitute withfunctional improvement that
might be something like a Worddocument with with Grammarly and
spell checker
on them maybe they've gotmodification technology that
allows significant tasks. Wedesign using spreadsheets for
example calculations, formulasredesigning posters having in
(07:33):
making creating infographics Andthen we've got we're aware at
the moment is the redefinitiontechnology allows for the
creation of new tasks previouslyinconceivable. So we're our
learners are going to go intothe workplace and have to be
aware of AI because it will bevery much part of our future.
But also if we're asking ourlearners to redefine what
they're looking at and so havingthat chalk and talk assignments
(07:56):
that were very black and white.Answer these questions and
delete these assignments or getprepared for this exam in this
way at least if they can utiliseit in that way, it will change
for them. And a number of waysthat my learners have used it
and I was quite impressed withjust before the exams this year,
my learners were we only had anumber of number of past papers
(08:19):
as the qualification was quitenew and one of my learners
quite, I was really againastounded with him typed in to
Chachi PT, typed in somequestions and it was able to
produce for them a number ofexam type questions. So we'd run
out of questions for thislearner.
The practise on and I havewritten a few as well but it was
having time. But this learnerwould come back and it had
(08:42):
produced for them a number ofquestions. So then we were able
to have a discussion in classand and I was up to look over
the work and say fantastic orwhat. I don't think it's very
good here. But then we sharedthat around with other groups as
well. So it's learners using itin that respect as well to make
their lives easier and more thatthat learner was not so nervous
(09:02):
when it came to the assignmentto the exam in the summer. I
think again that's all reallyinteresting and funny. A couple
of key principles that jumpedout. One is embracing it
feelings because it is here tostay and that embracement
and no matter would. But thatembracement is word now when my
my world is around. Well,absolutely. How can it help us
(09:24):
as practitioners to evengenerate different type of
assessments scenarios, takethings that we will exclude to
produce
that that point there aroundstudents using it to aid their
own learning experience. Youknow fantastic in terms of exam
questions, exam responses andstyles and this, that and the
other. The most important bitfor me are kind of words have
(09:44):
been banded around for years butsometimes the problem is they
mean everything and nothing butauthentic assessment and
holistic assessment.
The conversation I I regularlyhave with practitioners out
there, the sector and seniorsand the sector is well, we
should be developing ourcurriculum with their end goal
in mind, whether that be furtherstudy the next level or whether
(10:06):
that be industry. And Iwholeheartedly agree with that.
And again hopefully thisconversation here not
necessarily new but kind ofbroader conversation on
assessment, AI and
UM assessment check has not beenaccurate, but just check not
been and so on and so forthmight provoke some different
thinking. We have conversationsthis time last year with
colleagues from EdinburghCollege on project based
(10:27):
assessments, which is nothingnew whatsoever,
but there's some scepticismaround one doing it. It kind of
goes on the too hot to do palssometimes, mapping and all the
laying qualifications,assessment specifications,
secondly, satisfying EVs and soon and so forth. But there's no
better time to rethinkassessment than right now, for
all of the reasons that you'vetalked about today. And I
(10:48):
wholeheartedly agree. And it'sour own embracing AI and how we
can do that, how can keep itreally simple, how we can make
it authentic. And it goes backto the conversation we had on
our first episode aroundmeaningful interactions,
relationships, students, studentdevelopment skills over time.
All these things, whileassessment should really just be
a method of
measuring progress over time andcompetency and so on and so
(11:10):
forth. So I go back ten years,there were students in in yeah,
one of the qualification gettingmemory sticks of students in
year two of the qualificationgetting their assessments
changing. It's nothingdifferent, it's just different
ways of of the minority tryingto play the system. And we
shouldn't then change the systemto address the minority. We
should change the system tofocus on the majority and we try
(11:33):
and embrace it to rethinkassessments and utilise this as
a method of of developing ourstudents to be the the future
workforce. Because as you alludeto as well industry
are using AI you know hugeamounts. So we need to prepare
our students for what their nextsteps into industry to be
competent efficient and and beable to use this effectively to
do their jobs.
(11:54):
So sorry going out looks youcome in there. I mean I it's
thinking about what ideas itgives us that authentic and
holistic assessment and you'reright I'm with the EV certainly
you've got I know myself as ateacher with my work going offer
EV it's thinking about it butit's also trusting ourselves
isn't it? It's trustingourselves and and being
confident with it and speakingto our colleagues and saying
(12:16):
yeah it is fitting thatcriteria. Yes it is. Absolutely
it is and it's just changing itaround and not having as you say
the memory sticks year one toyear two I've witnessed that
myself and the same pieces ofwork coming in it can't be
topics change topics change. Soit's about us
stating our topics andunderstanding in that way. And
the key bit is, you know, usingsome English language skills,
knowledge and behaviours and soon, how how assessments
(12:38):
evidences development andcompetence within those areas.
And I know kind of closing Scottwill have kind of similar
language but the same principlesof we're not here just done part
knowledge and students and partof knowledge back in the
assessment report. We've got tobe a lot more, much more dynamic
with that. And this may be thecatalyst for that change to
provoke you to think, oh, I needto think differently now, I need
to move away from 10 reports. Weshould be doing that anyway
(13:00):
because I think from a student'sperspective, but I'm just
waiting 10 reports and 30,000words over the year. What's the
purpose and principles of doingthat
as well?
Absolutely. It's a variety ofassessment, isn't it? And it's
an opportunity for us to thinkabout that and use this
technology save time so thatwe've got the time to spend on
that assessment planning.Absolutely.
(13:21):
And again I guess startingpoints for me. Ohh, it is that
blank bit of paper. It's areflection time when you've got
some time away from students orbefore you finish on leave for
the summer to think actuallywell how do I want to assess my
students? What do they need todemonstrate? How do we do it?
It's mattering it all to thequalification specification. So
I'm that conversation appearsand again we've got a podcast
(13:42):
and A and a workshop on thislast year as to how the lecture
did it kind of went from 25learning outcomes down to five
assessments because again inbefore the project assessment
they had 25 assessments, youknow, which obviously wasn't
right either. But it's around.Yeah, from my interactions again
with different organisations,
that's OK with it as long as theevidence is there to meet the
individual criteria. They don'tcare what what we're comes in. I
(14:04):
remember recording podcasts withstudents back in 2017 where they
were recording voice memos onthe phone and e-mail it in. It
was a nightmare to mark
from their skill set. It wasreally interesting to get
students to think differentlybecause my principal to them was
just communicating. That's allyou're doing. You're
communicating in a quiet room byyourself, whereas others got
really creative, put music,jazz, it up and did whatever.
(14:26):
But that's what we're here for.The students were not here just
to get them to take assessments.It's around how can we be more
dynamic. And as you allude to aswell from the students
perspective, AI can reallysupport that. It's not a, it's
not a negative of ooh,somebody's used the eye. It's
actually how can they use thatto help refine their work, to
help improve their work. I dothat in my role. I'm sure you do
that in your role too. So it's agood thing for students to do
(14:49):
it.
Absolutely. It's it's thinkingabout how they can use it. How
we can use it. Like examquestion that my student came up
with. I've got you know it'sthinking about those ways to use
them and thinking about that.Just last few things have gone
on. The main parts of assessmentwhat I had done this year was
when I when I realised thatnumber of learners had found um
(15:09):
Senator, I was we had anassignment. They did their
assignment and it wasn't allcovered in there in the
specification. It wasn't allcovered. Sorry in the
assignment. So then we had anopen discussion where we
recorded the discussion in theclassroom and I I was conscious
of my SV and my EV. So I wrotedown the minutes into the
conversation of
where they've hit the criteriaor so. Then I could hand over
(15:30):
that document and then theycould listen to the whole
recording, but also they knewwhere it was being hit. So I was
thinking a bit, we've been doingthis for years, but it's just
remembering perhaps some of theways that we've done them. Um,
there's another way that mylearners have used. Chat, GTP,
GPT, sorry, where I've had themtight. They've typed in, for
(15:50):
example, question, write me 10questions based on human
computer interaction orchildcare. And then it's come
back with those answers forthem. That was part of their
understanding of the topic andthen they've used that
in their assignments. So it'sjust these these different ways
that we can think about it.
No I think that's great. And andagain as we talked in the first
(16:12):
episode around kind of attackemerging, we tried the teams
premium, I think it wasyesterday around well actually
that can be a part of a ameeting and capture some minutes
and actions and times. So thatkind of that manual aspect there
of coding as to when so and sosaid well again the aggregate
will support of that in timeonce that becomes part of
customs and practise. So yeahit's huge. So I guess my final
(16:33):
point on assessment before wekind of move on ethics is my
view is that we aspractitioners, lecturers,
managers,
it's our job to upskill in thisspace.
We need to be competent in thespace one to build. We can
understand how it's utilised bystudents and ourselves but to to
educate students as to how touse it which kind of which does
type ethics bit a little bit butas to as to how to be able to
(16:56):
use it, what's right, what'swrong. So I think that's a segue
there that immediately but intoethics. So Paddy weather starts
here in terms of ethics and andmitigating risks in in relation
to our youth and education.
The end of the day there, it'sit's a new area. So we we've
worked out the Essex, aren't we?We're working out which ways to
(17:16):
go with it. I have experience.I'm gonna start with my learner.
My learner this year and thebeginning of the year found
generative AI and in the realworld situation in my classroom.
He emailed me one night about1:00 in the morning. He was a 16
year old, 16 year old andemailed me. Hi Sir, I can't
sleep. I've been usinggenerative AI since the
beginning of the year to do myassignments. Couldn't sleep.
(17:38):
What's he going to fail thecourse? He's got his exam coming
up. He was worried, came intoclass and I said let's sit down,
let's have a chat, let's, let'scalm down and let's have a look
at it ethically. Straight away Ihad to think to myself, Oh my
goodness, he's given me work, soI can't check. I don't know if
it's expensive I or if it's hisown work. So we sat down and we
(17:58):
came up with a plan. When I saythe student was in tears, he
absolutely wasn't tears. He hereally loved the subject and we
did not want to lose him. So wewe came up with a plan. We went,
he went back over his work, hecited his work, he went back
over and he gave examples wehad, we had discussions, we
recorded discussions over it.Now for a learner to be in that
place where they're thinking, mygoodness, I'm going to,
(18:21):
I'm really upset and I'm like,what's gonna happen? We need to
have rules in place. My learnerat the time, there was a policy
in place, but we need to havethose discussions with our
learners, I think, at thebeginning of next academic year
and say what is right, what iswrong. Most centres now in
colleges and universities havegot policies in place, but it's
having those ethical discussionswith them, being honest with
(18:43):
them and saying, you know, youcan reuse it to research, but
you have to put it into your ownwords. You have to give me
examples, you have to show meyour understanding. We cannot be
in the place where we say, in myview, that we can't ban AI, ban
Jones with AI,
because we're going to be in theplace. Then that means we have
to ban spell checkers if we'regoing to ban AI. We could be
(19:04):
banning Grammarly. Well, that'sdisadvantaging some of our
dyslexic learners, for example.We have to come up with a agreed
level of where I am and whereit's acceptable in our
classroom. It's having thosediscussions with learners and
not having, like, I had alearner, bless him, I did not
expect this to happen, you know,and luckily I've been
researching, I've been using itmyself so I could have an
(19:26):
understanding of it. It wasn'tthat. No, not at all. But also I
knew not to trust the play thethe Chequers. So it's thinking
about that
basically, what is right, whatis wrong. We were here with
Google a number of years ago.It's putting it into sensible
terms. We have to thinkethically our our learners
putting any data. We can't havethat because we've got GDPR. But
for a number of years now,before I've used apps and being
(19:48):
a computing teacher, we have touse certain Khan Academy in
certain different differentsites where learners sign up
though we have to. I have tojust check that through my GDPR
officer and think about what amI learned, what data was my
learner putting into there. Sowe have to make them aware of
that. Again, we always have tomake them aware of is it
correct, is it wrong, is itwrong. We know it can read them
(20:08):
easier. We can know it can read.
Text. I think we need to have anopen discussion with our
learners in tutorial orsomething where we're talking
about topics and seeing what itcomes out with and pointing out
the problems with it. I've had anumber of of a couple of
learners who have have ADHD, ASDand they've it's black and
white, black and white. It'stelling me this we have those
(20:31):
discussions otherwise we couldsend them down the wrong path
the same as the Internet. Soethically we we've interestingly
at the National Centre for AI,we've got a pathway towards
Responsible Ethical AI which ispublished on our as a report
about what is the pathway togetting to a responsible NFL use
of AI. And we obviously sharethe link, but it's an
(20:54):
interesting report and it talksabout us which way do we go with
it. At the moment we have tothink about what motivates us as
as users of it and think aboutwhat motivates our learners to
use it. But actually it'sthinking which ways are the
correct ways. Let's not scaremonger people, but let's take it
and understand it that it, itcan have problems with it. It
(21:15):
can push out false information.But let's have that discussion
with our learners. Mostcertainly
no wholeheartedly agree. Andthat goes back to what we said
there. That responsibility comesback actually having that
confidence and confidence inthat space, to be able to kind
of to to support students, tounderstand it, to have got
confidence and to be able tohave those open conversations.
(21:37):
And that's not easy becauseagain, when I go back to the
anecdotal UM figure, I'm rootedwithin the previous episode,
around 15% of the workforcebeing confidence. Well, that's
not a lot. You know, there's gotto be some rapid progress made
there across the sector inrelation to
um upskilling and kind ofraising awareness and
development mini bikes to kindof releasing the hope for the
month of June, if not in earlyJuly around AI and kind of what
(21:59):
it is and what it means inpractise. But again, we've got
professional responsibility toupskill our knowledge in that
space. And I think in terms ofethics,
again, there's a lot of badpress about this in terms of big
plagiarism checkers or in termsof students cheating and this,
that and the other and that mayhave put off other people. I
think the other point to notehere around ethics, which you
(22:20):
touched upon within the kind ofprevious bit of information was
wrong GDPR.
And again, I'm going to kind ofpass this back to you in a
second in terms of um what yourknowledge, understanding and
relationship PR Maine is, is I'mnot this is minimal, but I know
that the the context from acrossthe Scottish sector is that
(22:40):
colleges are taking differentapproaches in terms of whether
it's been banned initially, notbanned initially, but also then
more so in terms of the rolloutof this. Because there's
concerns from a GDPR perspectivein terms of what data it minds,
what data it holds. But alsobecause of the risk of um other
bits of AI which may beimitating strategy PPT there as
(23:03):
well. So it's a risk then forthe way that works. But part of
that second bit for now come outthe first bit GDPR. So using
ChatGPT. What should and shouldI not put in there from your any
personal details in there Iwould only be using it for
topics I wouldn't be putting inany learner's names. I wouldn't
putting any grades. I wouldnothing. It's it's just think
(23:24):
back to any GDPR training thatyou've done. Treat this exactly
the same. You wouldn't write itdown and put it on a notice
board somewhere you wouldn't putit into there. We don't need to.
We shouldn't
as long as we don't put anythingin there we're OK. That's what I
would say, just just base it onthose topics that you're
teaching rather than anypersonal details. Perfect. And
(23:45):
again as always to kind ofsupport and and 2nd that it is
then going to take yourproviders advice in terms of
what your college rules arethere as well and in terms of
expectations. I know someplayers are saying do not sign
up with your college e-mailaddress. Sign up with
your different one, whether thatbe a personal one or or a kind
of new e-mail address for thispurpose. So again please do can
I take on board your your yourcollege advice and in relation
(24:07):
to space because obviously theprotection is a is a huge and
really important aspect.
And the second part there inrelation to um other sites which
may mimic this, that's why Ithink some providers are wary as
well. It's because there areother things that may be popping
up that may be imitating ChatGPTand otherwise which may be more
(24:30):
potentially more scrupulous. Isthere anything in your awareness
in relation to that at all orthere's a lot going on around in
Europe, the UK and over over inAmerica with legislation. And I
think the at the moment from myunderstanding
we're looking in the UK at handrails approach. So what how what
(24:51):
support do we need either sideof us. I understand that over in
Europe it's gonna be a bit moreregulated and over in America
it's gonna be a bit softer. Soit's I think we're finding our
way with this. There's no answerat the moment. There's the the
government are looking into thisand we're certainly looking to
this about how far AI will go.So
(25:11):
if that ethics isn't it as Isuppose it's that ethics. What
information do we put into itWhat do we take out of it.
There's always gonna be ethicsaround what it's generating. Now
thinking about it as well itproduces bias at the moment. If
you I typed in a couple ofmonths ago on a Sunday, what
should I have for my on todayfor dinner and on a Sunday and
it produced a Sunday roast. Wellthat in the UK that might be
(25:34):
what we have in the middle ofwinter but around the world it
won't. So we have to think aboutbias at the moment the data set
is going from so it's thinkingabout what bias it might
produce. Is there anyintellectual property that I'm
putting in information
of any intellectual propertysome colleges will uh, we're all
finding our way with it. So I Ithink at the moment it's here
(25:55):
we've got a we're we're movingforward with it but we need to
understand our boundaries umwith it and I and and that's it
really.
No I think it's fantastic andand that was a good kind of my
closing for thought there aswell and I'll come back to you
if anything else from you butfor me I can read off the talked
about is firstly my views it'sgreat it can be a fantastic tool
(26:15):
a fantastic addition to ourrepertoire of tools that we use
as practitioners. Secondly, it'svery important even from a
professional practiseperspective and ethics
perspective that that we upskillour own knowledge. We need to
because it's here to stay as itwill lead to quite a few times
and it's becoming moremainstream, which I think is a
good thing. But we all need tobe aware. So if we're not
(26:36):
confident,
I'm afraid sorry we need to dosomething about that to increase
our knowledge and awarenessbecause otherwise it will pass
us by. And yeah, but the finalpoint for me, which is the
positive and forward-looking,but the genuine UH aspect I'm
really passionate about, is wecan use this to help rethink
what we do. And the context forthat is
(26:59):
there is some fantastic practisein the code sector and there's
some real innovations and someexcellent practise and kind of
rework industry. But the samething, there's other bits of
practise that need to beimproved further, that need to
kind of listen to others. Andthat's not a criticism, it's
just
broadly speaking our curriculumneeds to ensure we're fit for
purpose to help students meettheir individual needs, which
(27:21):
ultimately is progressingindustry. And this can really
help us do that from a learningand teaching perspective as
you've alluded to in terms ofworkload and time, provide more
interactions but alsodevelopment of skills. So for me
it's really exciting, but it'squite risky at the same time
because it's a lot of unknown,is a lot of new there. So but
it's really important that we asa workforce develop our
(27:42):
knowledge, our experience in thespace and utilise the materials
out there and actually see themproviding a lot of information
over this month. In comingmonths,
Jessica provide a lot ofinformation there as well and
we're gonna try our best to verymuch curate that and make this
as simple as possible tounderstand and think well what
does it mean in layman's terms.So those are my thoughts. Sorry
(28:03):
if I've done any of your Thunderthere, probably have done. But
back to you just to finish offanything else from you. It's
it's thinking about it sensibly.It's here we we we educated so
good at adapting. It can providepersonalised learning for our
learners, almost intellectualtutoring for our learnings
because they can utilise it indifferent ways we it can almost
predict them, but we have to beaware of any bias and
(28:26):
discrimination,
um, loss of any personalinteractions. I think it's about
using it to save our time so weget more personal interactions
with our learners, but justusing it sensibly.
Fantastic. Well, let's see whattheir party. Thank you very
much. Really interestingconversations, some fascinating
points. And as we've kind ofshared through two episodes,
we'll share links that are kindof relevant as part of the
(28:48):
description there as well.Follow up being followed
formation. Well, Patty, thankyou for your time. Catch up
shortly. Fantastic. Thank youvery much.
OK, buddy, welcome back. So aspromised, we're now gonna dive
into assessments and ethics, sokeep this off. There's so much
conversation on assessmentanyway around plagiarism.
Checkers is something the otherI think with AI in general of AI
coming
over the hill, I'm going to sayit was pretty Christmas 2022
kind of becoming moremainstream. It's now kind of
(00:27):
really raised a lot of questionsaround assessment and around
cheating, around plagiarism, butit's much broader than that.
So for I don't want to talkpreviously it's around the
design of assessment and how wecan use AI and to really
change what we think and how wedeliver assessments. So I I
guess the as off what are yourinitial thoughts around that
(00:50):
topic.
So hang on a any teacher, wespend a lot of time thinking
about our assessment methods.For myself, I plan where am I
going to get to, where do I wantto get to and what do I want to
assess And then I work backwardswith my teaching content. There
are some risks certainly withusing generative AI, but there's
also I think this is opportunityto rethink assessments and how
(01:14):
we assess our learners, whichwe've all been speaking about
for a number of years now. Andit's thinking about what's the
best way to live in a worldwhere AI generative AI and be
able to assess my learners andknow that it's authentic
is there work it's up to dateand that they're actually
learning from it not justproducing something. So thinking
(01:35):
about let's how can we we wehave got the power to change the
assessment within our ownteaching, within our own topics.
I've taught IT for example an ITTechnical Support and there was
one part in the specificationwhere learners had to
demonstrate that that keyworddemonstrating that they and they
were given a number of scenariosand they had to resolve a couple
(01:58):
of IT Technical Support issues.Lockdown came along and we were
teaching online and like we
I needed to assess them um butwhat we did, we switched it up
and I had teams meetings and Igave them time beforehand to
research a number of topics andthen in the meeting I gave them
five different one issues andthen they had to explain to me
(02:19):
as if we were face to facebetween two different people at
one side of each side of herdesk and they were really
enjoyed that. So I kept that andthe following year when we were
back into into class it'sthinking about how we can pick
up assessment and it's it's thatholistic assessment. So what
I've done this year in in myteaching was look at thinking
(02:39):
right. I'm teaching
a number of different units andwe're for example covering them
very similar topics, GDPR, dataprotection and so on. How can I
reduce my assessment and alsocover everything. So we've I've
looked at the whole curriculumand we cross mapped as much as
we could and then we I broke itdown to project based learning.
Instead of all the learnershaving the same assignments or
(03:01):
having the same topics, we brokeit down and they for example
designed and developed a game.They chose their game. They had
to project manage that game,let's build, they had to
evaluate their assets. They hadto look at the legal sides of
that and the ethical side ofthat and but it was all
based on their specific game sothat that became holistic. They
wouldn't be able to put that ininto any other into a computer
(03:24):
into any Genji and come out withthose results because it was all
based on their game. So it'spicking up assessment and
changing it in a way andactually I found my that that
helped my marking because I knewI marked a number of assignments
but it covered a number ofdifferent units So it reduced my
workload in that respect. Butalso the learners were far more
(03:44):
engaged than if I taught. Legal,legal and ethical, legal, ethics
and IT. Sorry, human computerinteraction, games design and IT
project management allseparately.
So it's thinking about thedifferent methods that we can
assess them. Um,
it's also I think about havingthose, those discussions with
the learners and and thinking isthis is your work, are you
(04:05):
writing an answer just for anassignment or are they learning
from it? Um, we've had for anumber of years essay mills
learners who have got the moneycould potentially go and buy an
essay. We've had those risks andthose have been getting more and
more
about varied, but the harder topick up as a teacher, unless
(04:26):
you've read one for yourself forexample. So there's also
plagiarism checkers which we'vehad for university level, um
turn in for a number of years.The worry with any generated AI
is Chequers we've got, we've gotAI checkers. However they have
proven that they can also havefalse positives. So I would be
(04:47):
concerned with using a tool thatcheques for generative IAI
checkers for students work, forexample, because it could push
out a false positive and then wecould be
saying to our learner, you know,you've plagiarised, but actually
they haven't. I was reading anarticle yesterday that is that
she was showing that it'smathematically impossible to
(05:08):
actually have any AI checker100% of the time. Correct. So we
we can't rely on that is anotherissue. It's about what we've
done before. It's thinking aboutour assessment method. We did
it, we've done it for a numberof years. It's trusting
ourselves, speaking to ourcolleagues and sharing best
practise and ways we've gotaround it and then actually
looking. Well, hang on a SEC. Mylearners were doing this more
(05:28):
than they did a couple of yearsago, where they were almost
themselves just SA after SAFRSA.
And then I'm thinking about likethat. We are at a stage where we
can with with generative AI. Wecan either do one of three
things, we can either avoid it,we can either outrun it or we
can embrace and adapt it. If weavoid it and we revert, for
(05:50):
example, just to exams, we knowsome people do better in exams.
We also know variety isimportant. But again, the exams
it makes so much focus on onesmall time. If we outrun it and
we use things like Gentry, AIcheckers, they'll always be
ahead of us. Then everybody willalways get ahead of us. We've
had this, you know, Google,
(06:10):
essay mills and asking aboutlearners to reference all the
way through. But if we embraceand adapt it and if we try and
get an understanding of it, itwill be much easier. And we
think about I need to make thisassessment authentic. I need to
make sure it's my learners,Let's embrace AI, let's utilise
that for our learners and alsolet's let them embrace that for
(06:31):
maybe something like checkingtheir learning, checking their
proof, reading. They could useit to proofread before they hand
in. And that is a simplechanging that's a game changer.
Before they'd have to paysomebody to you to have a
proofreading service whereas nowthey can use it.
It has been around for a numberof years but it's just thinking
(06:51):
about what way we can impact itour on our learning. We've also
got things like a number ofyears ago we were we looked at
BAMMA model and and improvingour learners digital literacy
because we know they need it forthe workplace. So before we had
substitution S from summertechnology acts direct
substitute with no functionalchange. So maybe they would be
(07:12):
typing a Word documentaugmentation technology access
direct substitute withfunctional improvement that
might be something like a Worddocument with with Grammarly and
spell checker
on them maybe they've gotmodification technology that
allows significant tasks. Wedesign using spreadsheets for
example calculations, formulasredesigning posters having in
(07:33):
making creating infographics Andthen we've got we're aware at
the moment is the redefinitiontechnology allows for the
creation of new tasks previouslyinconceivable. So we're our
learners are going to go intothe workplace and have to be
aware of AI because it will bevery much part of our future.
But also if we're asking ourlearners to redefine what
they're looking at and so havingthat chalk and talk assignments
(07:56):
that were very black and white.Answer these questions and
delete these assignments or getprepared for this exam in this
way at least if they can utiliseit in that way, it will change
for them. And a number of waysthat my learners have used it
and I was quite impressed withjust before the exams this year,
my learners were we only had anumber of number of past papers
(08:19):
as the qualification was quitenew and one of my learners
quite, I was really againastounded with him typed in to
Chachi PT, typed in somequestions and it was able to
produce for them a number ofexam type questions. So we'd run
out of questions for thislearner.
The practise on and I havewritten a few as well but it was
having time. But this learnerwould come back and it had
(08:42):
produced for them a number ofquestions. So then we were able
to have a discussion in classand and I was up to look over
the work and say fantastic orwhat. I don't think it's very
good here. But then we sharedthat around with other groups as
well. So it's learners using itin that respect as well to make
their lives easier and more thatthat learner was not so nervous
(09:02):
when it came to the assignmentto the exam in the summer. I
think again that's all reallyinteresting and funny. A couple
of key principles that jumpedout. One is embracing it
feelings because it is here tostay and that embracement
and no matter would. But thatembracement is word now when my
my world is around. Well,absolutely. How can it help us
(09:24):
as practitioners to evengenerate different type of
assessments scenarios, takethings that we will exclude to
produce
that that point there aroundstudents using it to aid their
own learning experience. Youknow fantastic in terms of exam
questions, exam responses andstyles and this, that and the
other. The most important bitfor me are kind of words have
(09:44):
been banded around for years butsometimes the problem is they
mean everything and nothing butauthentic assessment and
holistic assessment.
The conversation I I regularlyhave with practitioners out
there, the sector and seniorsand the sector is well, we
should be developing ourcurriculum with their end goal
in mind, whether that be furtherstudy the next level or whether
(10:06):
that be industry. And Iwholeheartedly agree with that.
And again hopefully thisconversation here not
necessarily new but kind ofbroader conversation on
assessment, AI and
UM assessment check has not beenaccurate, but just check not
been and so on and so forthmight provoke some different
thinking. We have conversationsthis time last year with
colleagues from EdinburghCollege on project based
(10:27):
assessments, which is nothingnew whatsoever,
but there's some scepticismaround one doing it. It kind of
goes on the too hot to do palssometimes, mapping and all the
laying qualifications,assessment specifications,
secondly, satisfying EVs and soon and so forth. But there's no
better time to rethinkassessment than right now, for
all of the reasons that you'vetalked about today. And I
(10:48):
wholeheartedly agree. And it'sour own embracing AI and how we
can do that, how can keep itreally simple, how we can make
it authentic. And it goes backto the conversation we had on
our first episode aroundmeaningful interactions,
relationships, students, studentdevelopment skills over time.
All these things, whileassessment should really just be
a method of
measuring progress over time andcompetency and so on and so
(11:10):
forth. So I go back ten years,there were students in in yeah,
one of the qualification gettingmemory sticks of students in
year two of the qualificationgetting their assessments
changing. It's nothingdifferent, it's just different
ways of of the minority tryingto play the system. And we
shouldn't then change the systemto address the minority. We
should change the system tofocus on the majority and we try
(11:33):
and embrace it to rethinkassessments and utilise this as
a method of of developing ourstudents to be the the future
workforce. Because as you alludeto as well industry
are using AI you know hugeamounts. So we need to prepare
our students for what their nextsteps into industry to be
competent efficient and and beable to use this effectively to
do their jobs.
(11:54):
So sorry going out looks youcome in there. I mean I it's
thinking about what ideas itgives us that authentic and
holistic assessment and you'reright I'm with the EV certainly
you've got I know myself as ateacher with my work going offer
EV it's thinking about it butit's also trusting ourselves
isn't it? It's trustingourselves and and being
confident with it and speakingto our colleagues and saying
(12:16):
yeah it is fitting thatcriteria. Yes it is. Absolutely
it is and it's just changing itaround and not having as you say
the memory sticks year one toyear two I've witnessed that
myself and the same pieces ofwork coming in it can't be
topics change topics change. Soit's about us
stating our topics andunderstanding in that way. And
the key bit is, you know, usingsome English language skills,
knowledge and behaviours and soon, how how assessments
(12:38):
evidences development andcompetence within those areas.
And I know kind of closing Scottwill have kind of similar
language but the same principlesof we're not here just done part
knowledge and students and partof knowledge back in the
assessment report. We've got tobe a lot more, much more dynamic
with that. And this may be thecatalyst for that change to
provoke you to think, oh, I needto think differently now, I need
to move away from 10 reports. Weshould be doing that anyway
(13:00):
because I think from a student'sperspective, but I'm just
waiting 10 reports and 30,000words over the year. What's the
purpose and principles of doingthat
as well?
Absolutely. It's a variety ofassessment, isn't it? And it's
an opportunity for us to thinkabout that and use this
technology save time so thatwe've got the time to spend on
that assessment planning.Absolutely.
(13:21):
And again I guess startingpoints for me. Ohh, it is that
blank bit of paper. It's areflection time when you've got
some time away from students orbefore you finish on leave for
the summer to think actuallywell how do I want to assess my
students? What do they need todemonstrate? How do we do it?
It's mattering it all to thequalification specification. So
I'm that conversation appearsand again we've got a podcast
(13:42):
and A and a workshop on thislast year as to how the lecture
did it kind of went from 25learning outcomes down to five
assessments because again inbefore the project assessment
they had 25 assessments, youknow, which obviously wasn't
right either. But it's around.Yeah, from my interactions again
with different organisations,
that's OK with it as long as theevidence is there to meet the
individual criteria. They don'tcare what what we're comes in. I
(14:04):
remember recording podcasts withstudents back in 2017 where they
were recording voice memos onthe phone and e-mail it in. It
was a nightmare to mark
from their skill set. It wasreally interesting to get
students to think differentlybecause my principal to them was
just communicating. That's allyou're doing. You're
communicating in a quiet room byyourself, whereas others got
really creative, put music,jazz, it up and did whatever.
(14:26):
But that's what we're here for.The students were not here just
to get them to take assessments.It's around how can we be more
dynamic. And as you allude to aswell from the students
perspective, AI can reallysupport that. It's not a, it's
not a negative of ooh,somebody's used the eye. It's
actually how can they use thatto help refine their work, to
help improve their work. I dothat in my role. I'm sure you do
that in your role too. So it's agood thing for students to do
(14:49):
it.
Absolutely. It's it's thinkingabout how they can use it. How
we can use it. Like examquestion that my student came up
with. I've got you know it'sthinking about those ways to use
them and thinking about that.Just last few things have gone
on. The main parts of assessmentwhat I had done this year was
when I when I realised thatnumber of learners had found um
(15:09):
Senator, I was we had anassignment. They did their
assignment and it wasn't allcovered in there in the
specification. It wasn't allcovered. Sorry in the
assignment. So then we had anopen discussion where we
recorded the discussion in theclassroom and I I was conscious
of my SV and my EV. So I wrotedown the minutes into the
conversation of
where they've hit the criteriaor so. Then I could hand over
(15:30):
that document and then theycould listen to the whole
recording, but also they knewwhere it was being hit. So I was
thinking a bit, we've been doingthis for years, but it's just
remembering perhaps some of theways that we've done them. Um,
there's another way that mylearners have used. Chat, GTP,
GPT, sorry, where I've had themtight. They've typed in, for
(15:50):
example, question, write me 10questions based on human
computer interaction orchildcare. And then it's come
back with those answers forthem. That was part of their
understanding of the topic andthen they've used that
in their assignments. So it'sjust these these different ways
that we can think about it.
No I think that's great. And andagain as we talked in the first
(16:12):
episode around kind of attackemerging, we tried the teams
premium, I think it wasyesterday around well actually
that can be a part of a ameeting and capture some minutes
and actions and times. So thatkind of that manual aspect there
of coding as to when so and sosaid well again the aggregate
will support of that in timeonce that becomes part of
customs and practise. So yeahit's huge. So I guess my final
(16:33):
point on assessment before wekind of move on ethics is my
view is that we aspractitioners, lecturers,
managers,
it's our job to upskill in thisspace.
We need to be competent in thespace one to build. We can
understand how it's utilised bystudents and ourselves but to to
educate students as to how touse it which kind of which does
type ethics bit a little bit butas to as to how to be able to
(16:56):
use it, what's right, what'swrong. So I think that's a segue
there that immediately but intoethics. So Paddy weather starts
here in terms of ethics and andmitigating risks in in relation
to our youth and education.
The end of the day there, it'sit's a new area. So we we've
worked out the Essex, aren't we?We're working out which ways to
(17:16):
go with it. I have experience.I'm gonna start with my learner.
My learner this year and thebeginning of the year found
generative AI and in the realworld situation in my classroom.
He emailed me one night about1:00 in the morning. He was a 16
year old, 16 year old andemailed me. Hi Sir, I can't
sleep. I've been usinggenerative AI since the
beginning of the year to do myassignments. Couldn't sleep.
(17:38):
What's he going to fail thecourse? He's got his exam coming
up. He was worried, came intoclass and I said let's sit down,
let's have a chat, let's, let'scalm down and let's have a look
at it ethically. Straight away Ihad to think to myself, Oh my
goodness, he's given me work, soI can't check. I don't know if
it's expensive I or if it's hisown work. So we sat down and we
(17:58):
came up with a plan. When I saythe student was in tears, he
absolutely wasn't tears. He hereally loved the subject and we
did not want to lose him. So wewe came up with a plan. We went,
he went back over his work, hecited his work, he went back
over and he gave examples wehad, we had discussions, we
recorded discussions over it.Now for a learner to be in that
place where they're thinking, mygoodness, I'm going to,
(18:21):
I'm really upset and I'm like,what's gonna happen? We need to
have rules in place. My learnerat the time, there was a policy
in place, but we need to havethose discussions with our
learners, I think, at thebeginning of next academic year
and say what is right, what iswrong. Most centres now in
colleges and universities havegot policies in place, but it's
having those ethical discussionswith them, being honest with
(18:43):
them and saying, you know, youcan reuse it to research, but
you have to put it into your ownwords. You have to give me
examples, you have to show meyour understanding. We cannot be
in the place where we say, in myview, that we can't ban AI, ban
Jones with AI,
because we're going to be in theplace. Then that means we have
to ban spell checkers if we'regoing to ban AI. We could be
(19:04):
banning Grammarly. Well, that'sdisadvantaging some of our
dyslexic learners, for example.We have to come up with a agreed
level of where I am and whereit's acceptable in our
classroom. It's having thosediscussions with learners and
not having, like, I had alearner, bless him, I did not
expect this to happen, you know,and luckily I've been
researching, I've been using itmyself so I could have an
(19:26):
understanding of it. It wasn'tthat. No, not at all. But also I
knew not to trust the play thethe Chequers. So it's thinking
about that
basically, what is right, whatis wrong. We were here with
Google a number of years ago.It's putting it into sensible
terms. We have to thinkethically our our learners
putting any data. We can't havethat because we've got GDPR. But
for a number of years now,before I've used apps and being
(19:48):
a computing teacher, we have touse certain Khan Academy in
certain different differentsites where learners sign up
though we have to. I have tojust check that through my GDPR
officer and think about what amI learned, what data was my
learner putting into there. Sowe have to make them aware of
that. Again, we always have tomake them aware of is it
correct, is it wrong, is itwrong. We know it can read them
(20:08):
easier. We can know it can read.
Text. I think we need to have anopen discussion with our
learners in tutorial orsomething where we're talking
about topics and seeing what itcomes out with and pointing out
the problems with it. I've had anumber of of a couple of
learners who have have ADHD, ASDand they've it's black and
white, black and white. It'stelling me this we have those
(20:31):
discussions otherwise we couldsend them down the wrong path
the same as the Internet. Soethically we we've interestingly
at the National Centre for AI,we've got a pathway towards
Responsible Ethical AI which ispublished on our as a report
about what is the pathway togetting to a responsible NFL use
of AI. And we obviously sharethe link, but it's an
(20:54):
interesting report and it talksabout us which way do we go with
it. At the moment we have tothink about what motivates us as
as users of it and think aboutwhat motivates our learners to
use it. But actually it'sthinking which ways are the
correct ways. Let's not scaremonger people, but let's take it
and understand it that it, itcan have problems with it. It
(21:15):
can push out false information.But let's have that discussion
with our learners. Mostcertainly
no wholeheartedly agree. Andthat goes back to what we said
there. That responsibility comesback actually having that
confidence and confidence inthat space, to be able to kind
of to to support students, tounderstand it, to have got
confidence and to be able tohave those open conversations.
(21:37):
And that's not easy becauseagain, when I go back to the
anecdotal UM figure, I'm rootedwithin the previous episode,
around 15% of the workforcebeing confidence. Well, that's
not a lot. You know, there's gotto be some rapid progress made
there across the sector inrelation to
um upskilling and kind ofraising awareness and
development mini bikes to kindof releasing the hope for the
month of June, if not in earlyJuly around AI and kind of what
(21:59):
it is and what it means inpractise. But again, we've got
professional responsibility toupskill our knowledge in that
space. And I think in terms ofethics,
again, there's a lot of badpress about this in terms of big
plagiarism checkers or in termsof students cheating and this,
that and the other and that mayhave put off other people. I
think the other point to notehere around ethics, which you
(22:20):
touched upon within the kind ofprevious bit of information was
wrong GDPR.
And again, I'm going to kind ofpass this back to you in a
second in terms of um what yourknowledge, understanding and
relationship PR Maine is, is I'mnot this is minimal, but I know
that the the context from acrossthe Scottish sector is that
(22:40):
colleges are taking differentapproaches in terms of whether
it's been banned initially, notbanned initially, but also then
more so in terms of the rolloutof this. Because there's
concerns from a GDPR perspectivein terms of what data it minds,
what data it holds. But alsobecause of the risk of um other
bits of AI which may beimitating strategy PPT there as
(23:03):
well. So it's a risk then forthe way that works. But part of
that second bit for now come outthe first bit GDPR. So using
ChatGPT. What should and shouldI not put in there from your any
personal details in there Iwould only be using it for
topics I wouldn't be putting inany learner's names. I wouldn't
putting any grades. I wouldnothing. It's it's just think
(23:24):
back to any GDPR training thatyou've done. Treat this exactly
the same. You wouldn't write itdown and put it on a notice
board somewhere you wouldn't putit into there. We don't need to.
We shouldn't
as long as we don't put anythingin there we're OK. That's what I
would say, just just base it onthose topics that you're
teaching rather than anypersonal details. Perfect. And
(23:45):
again as always to kind ofsupport and and 2nd that it is
then going to take yourproviders advice in terms of
what your college rules arethere as well and in terms of
expectations. I know someplayers are saying do not sign
up with your college e-mailaddress. Sign up with
your different one, whether thatbe a personal one or or a kind
of new e-mail address for thispurpose. So again please do can
I take on board your your yourcollege advice and in relation
(24:07):
to space because obviously theprotection is a is a huge and
really important aspect.
And the second part there inrelation to um other sites which
may mimic this, that's why Ithink some providers are wary as
well. It's because there areother things that may be popping
up that may be imitating ChatGPTand otherwise which may be more
(24:30):
potentially more scrupulous. Isthere anything in your awareness
in relation to that at all orthere's a lot going on around in
Europe, the UK and over over inAmerica with legislation. And I
think the at the moment from myunderstanding
we're looking in the UK at handrails approach. So what how what
(24:51):
support do we need either sideof us. I understand that over in
Europe it's gonna be a bit moreregulated and over in America
it's gonna be a bit softer. Soit's I think we're finding our
way with this. There's no answerat the moment. There's the the
government are looking into thisand we're certainly looking to
this about how far AI will go.So
(25:11):
if that ethics isn't it as Isuppose it's that ethics. What
information do we put into itWhat do we take out of it.
There's always gonna be ethicsaround what it's generating. Now
thinking about it as well itproduces bias at the moment. If
you I typed in a couple ofmonths ago on a Sunday, what
should I have for my on todayfor dinner and on a Sunday and
it produced a Sunday roast. Wellthat in the UK that might be
(25:34):
what we have in the middle ofwinter but around the world it
won't. So we have to think aboutbias at the moment the data set
is going from so it's thinkingabout what bias it might
produce. Is there anyintellectual property that I'm
putting in information
of any intellectual propertysome colleges will uh, we're all
finding our way with it. So I Ithink at the moment it's here
(25:55):
we've got a we're we're movingforward with it but we need to
understand our boundaries umwith it and I and and that's it
really.
No I think it's fantastic andand that was a good kind of my
closing for thought there aswell and I'll come back to you
if anything else from you butfor me I can read off the talked
about is firstly my views it'sgreat it can be a fantastic tool
(26:15):
a fantastic addition to ourrepertoire of tools that we use
as practitioners. Secondly, it'svery important even from a
professional practiseperspective and ethics
perspective that that we upskillour own knowledge. We need to
because it's here to stay as itwill lead to quite a few times
and it's becoming moremainstream, which I think is a
good thing. But we all need tobe aware. So if we're not
(26:36):
confident,
I'm afraid sorry we need to dosomething about that to increase
our knowledge and awarenessbecause otherwise it will pass
us by. And yeah, but the finalpoint for me, which is the
positive and forward-looking,but the genuine UH aspect I'm
really passionate about, is wecan use this to help rethink
what we do. And the context forthat is
(26:59):
there is some fantastic practisein the code sector and there's
some real innovations and someexcellent practise and kind of
rework industry. But the samething, there's other bits of
practise that need to beimproved further, that need to
kind of listen to others. Andthat's not a criticism, it's
just
broadly speaking our curriculumneeds to ensure we're fit for
purpose to help students meettheir individual needs, which
(27:21):
ultimately is progressingindustry. And this can really
help us do that from a learningand teaching perspective as
you've alluded to in terms ofworkload and time, provide more
interactions but alsodevelopment of skills. So for me
it's really exciting, but it'squite risky at the same time
because it's a lot of unknown,is a lot of new there. So but
it's really important that we asa workforce develop our
(27:42):
knowledge, our experience in thespace and utilise the materials
out there and actually see themproviding a lot of information
over this month. In comingmonths,
Jessica provide a lot ofinformation there as well and
we're gonna try our best to verymuch curate that and make this
as simple as possible tounderstand and think well what
does it mean in layman's terms.So those are my thoughts. Sorry
(28:03):
if I've done any of your Thunderthere, probably have done. But
back to you just to finish offanything else from you. It's
it's thinking about it sensibly.It's here we we we educated so
good at adapting. It can providepersonalised learning for our
learners, almost intellectualtutoring for our learnings
because they can utilise it indifferent ways we it can almost
predict them, but we have to beaware of any bias and
(28:26):
discrimination,
um, loss of any personalinteractions. I think it's about
using it to save our time so weget more personal interactions
with our learners, but justusing it sensibly.
Fantastic. Well, let's see whattheir party. Thank you very
much. Really interestingconversations, some fascinating
points. And as we've kind ofshared through two episodes,
we'll share links that are kindof relevant as part of the
(28:48):
description there as well.Follow up being followed
formation. Well, Patty, thankyou for your time. Catch up
shortly. Fantastic. Thank youvery much.
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