July 1, 2025 • 33 mins
There's a member of the pediatric palliative care team we all love but rarely acknowledge: The children's books we share with families that help them cope and process the terrible situations they face. In this episode, Sarah and Dan talk with Joanna Rowland, author of The Memory Box, The Memory Book, and The Memory Tree; and Brennan Wood, author of A Kid's Book About Grief and Executive Director of Portland's Dougy Center (dougy.org).
Click on the links in the titles above to learn more and purchase their books!
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Sarah Dabagh (00:00):
Dan. Hi. This is Sarah, and this is Dan, and we'd
(00:04):
like to welcome you back toPediPal,
Daniel Eison (00:06):
a podcast about all things pediatric palliative
care. The
Sarah Dabagh (00:10):
views in this podcast are ours alone and do
not represent our respectiveorganizations, and they do not
constitute medical advice.
Daniel Eison (00:17):
As we turn the page on this new chapter of
PediPal, we'd like to exploresomething that we haven't
covered
Sarah Dabagh (00:23):
before. We talk a lot about the different team
members on a pediatricpalliative care team, and it
occurred to us, as we werelooking back at the work we've
done until now that there's ateam member that actually is
very much a part of the room andvery much a part of a lot of
conversations that we have thatwe've never talked to, and
that's the authors of thechildren's books that we so
(00:45):
often use as tools and ashelpers and as guides as we talk
to families. And we thought itwould be really great to bring a
couple of those authors on totell us a little bit about what
it was like to become theauthors of children's grief and
processing books about the kindsof considerations they had to
put into the writing of thesebooks, and just to teach us
(01:06):
about the side of that that asmedical professionals, we just
know nothing about. And so we'revery excited to welcome on to
our favorite children's authors.
Joanna Rowland (01:19):
Hi, my name is Joanna Rowland, I am a picture
book author, and I write booksto help children through
difficult times. And I alsoteach elementary school in
California. My first book I kindof wrote, almost by accident. I
was at a family gatheringtalking about writing, and one
of the relatives said she hadwish there were positive books
(01:40):
on divorce, and so I halfjokingly said, All right, one,
not knowing that would become mydebut and always mom, forever,
dad. And a week before that cameout, the relative that was
talking to me, it was for hergranddaughter. That
granddaughter's father hadpassed away. And I was just
thinking, right before my bookcame out, oh, she doesn't need
my book anymore. She needs adifferent type of book, and I
(02:01):
hadn't thought about writingabout grief. I was looking for
books, you know, to send her,but none of them fit exactly
what I was hoping the book wouldfit for her. A lot of them were
on a loss for a grandparent, orthey were very specific, like
about a cancer journey. I justfelt there was a hole in the
market. And so that's kind ofwhat led me to think about
(02:22):
writing about the Memory Box. Ittook me two years to write it.
During that time, I was asynchronized swimming coach, and
one of my swimmers had gottensick in the process of me
starting to write this book, andunfortunately, she passed away.
So I knew this grief book I waswriting, it had to be relatable
to not only a father, but asister, a daughter, teammates
(02:46):
that lost friends. The challengewas for me to figure out, how
can I write it so the readerdoes not know who passed away,
so can relate to anybody. Aftermany edits and revisions in
going to conferences, gettingfeedback, it just kind of came
together and fell in the righthands with the publisher. It did
at the time. It was called sparkhouse.
Daniel Eison (03:05):
I'm glad you mentioned synchronized swimming,
because I was going to ask,there's this one page in the
book where the protagonist triesa new sport, and it was
synchronized swimming. I wasgoing to ask why that sport, if
there was a reason you chose it.
But I think the other thing thatyou mentioned that I find so
important is this balancebetween specificity and
generality, right? It feels likethe book walks this line
(03:26):
beautifully in a lot of ways,but I imagine that's challenging
when you're writing to find thatkind of middle voice between
being too specific and toogeneral.
Joanna Rowland (03:38):
Yes, and that's probably why it took two years
of revisions. I had tried it inthird person, different types of
structures. The only way I coulddo what I wanted it to do was
through first person, becausethen the reader didn't have to
identify who it was, but youcould still feel it was general
enough, like the words needed tobe general and personable, like
(03:59):
she talks about places they'vebeen without telling you what
the places were, and then theillustrator gets to fill in that
part of the story. And we werevery fortunate with Thea Baker
as the illustrator. Normally,when you sell a book, you
wouldn't have contact with theillustrator as part of the
process, but she put in somelittle secret nods, like the
(04:19):
Synchronized Swimming float forthe family, one of the families,
it was in memory of thatnormally wouldn't happen, and
I'm so thankful it did. It seemsso strange
Sarah Dabagh (04:29):
to me, from a complete outsider's perspective,
that the illustrator wouldn't bein direct communication, or even
in direct back and forth. Tellme a little bit about what it
was like to send your book outinto the world, not knowing what
the pictures would look likewhen I did
Joanna Rowland (04:41):
write the Memory Box. I did put an art note to
say, I don't want the reader toknow who passed away, but I
wasn't in specific on what thecharacter looked like if it was
a boy or girl. And I guess thethought behind that is, when I
send my words in, theillustrator hasn't looked at my
words. You know? And it's kindof giving them that same respect
(05:02):
of their art to create their ownstory with the words only little
art notes I put in and then Isnuck in that Synchro floor,
because, you know, the worstcould happen. They say, No, you
mentioned
Sarah Dabagh (05:14):
going to conferences getting feedback in
this two year process. How didthe memory book evolve in that
time, and what was the biggestsort of shift in how the book
looked, whether or not it wasdirectly information you got
from conference or feedback youreceived from a person reading
the book. When I
Joanna Rowland (05:30):
went to some conferences, when I was still
figuring out the middle of thebook, I had a art director. It
was one of the members of thisround table, and she had just
planted the idea you could evendo like a wordless spread. So it
just helps me play withdifferent textures or lack of
words. I went to a bigcircumference, and I brought two
versions, and it just confirmedit needed to be first person for
(05:54):
me to do what I wanted it to do.
So I think just gettingfeedback, because you hope your
words make people feel so if youcan tell there's something
missing, people don't feelsomething and so that kind of
helps, you know when you're onthe right path. Were
Sarah Dabagh (06:07):
you surprised by the reception of this book?
Because it is everywhere, and I,you know, recognize that I work
in a very specific kind ofeverywhere, but it is really
well utilized. Yeah,
Joanna Rowland (06:20):
I think I was surprised, because I'm a teacher
by day. So, like, as much as Iwould love to say, Oh, I could
write full time, you know, I,you know, I balanced motherhood
and teaching and then writing.
And I wasn't like a well knownwriter, you know, to begin with.
I had just had a always, mom,forever, dad come out, like in a
smaller press, you know, so Idon't think people knew me. So
(06:41):
to find out that it resonatedwith so many people, was
touching and that it found itsway to the market, I had hoped
it had found its way to thehospital. Like I can't go
necessarily go into anybookstore and see it, but to
know child life specialists andcounselors are using it, that's
where I'm just in awe that itkind of found its place, because
(07:01):
I'm not a good marketer.
Daniel Eison (07:05):
Have you gotten feedback about this, either from
kids who have had it read tothem or read it, or, I guess,
from those counselors and childlife specialists, I guess, since
it's now in the place you hopedit would be like, what kind of
the feedback have you gotten? So
Joanna Rowland (07:21):
I think the Memory Box came out in 2017 and
in 2018 Saint Jude's someonethat worked there reached out to
me to let me know, for their dayof remembrance, they were going
to be reading that book andgiving it to families. And I
think she had said, like about145 families from different
parts of the world wereattending. So to know that that
(07:44):
you know was going to be used tohelp families, was really
meaningful. On Amazon, I theysay, Don't read reviews, but I
do peak once in a while, andthere are over 2000 reviews for
it. So sometimes I'll read andpeople leave a message on how
they used it and created amemory box with the children in
their life. But as a teacher atthe school prior to the one I
(08:07):
work at now, I think I wasteaching kindergarten or TK at
the time, but a partner teacherhad a student where his mom had
passed away, and he nevermentioned her. Maybe a month or
two into the school year, thecounselor used my book and he
made a memory box, and then hetook it for show and tell to his
class, and he told his class forthe first time about his mom. So
(08:27):
to know a child that didn't knowhow to talk about the loss of
his mom, that it helped him talkabout his mom that was like, I
would I cry thinking about itnow. But so I think that, you
know, to help kids communicate.
Sarah Dabagh (08:40):
I think books are such a safe place to find words
to cry to Yes, for kids andadults. And so it makes a lot of
sense that that's where yournatural talents and passion
ended up. And I think that's oneof the beauties of a children's
book, is it can be a familyevent, it can be a ceremony of
remembrance event, or it can bea private event, reading a book
like that.
Joanna Rowland (09:00):
And I think that's what I love about
teaching, is I get paid to readpicture books every day, and
books are kind of like a safeplace for kids to experience,
maybe something they haven'texperienced, but maybe one of
their friends have experienced,or something they might have to
encounter in the future to see.
You know, it will be okay indifferent ways you can handle
situation. So I love picturebooks as a gentle way to help
(09:22):
children learn how to copethrough life.
Sarah Dabagh (09:26):
So 2017 it is now.
I had to do some math eightyears later, believe it or not,
if you could go back, is thereanything now, either in the way
your personal understanding ofgrief has changed, or the
feedback you've gotten over theyears? Is there anything you
would change about the book ifyou were writing it today?
Joanna Rowland (09:43):
So the Memory Box book then had a journal
called the memory book, a griefjournal. Sometimes in a picture
book, you're limited to how manywords you can put on a page. So
with the journal, I could talkabout different seasons, because
there were other aspects I wouldhave loved. To include it in the
book. So the journal, I got todo a little bit more of that.
(10:04):
Then the memory tree, which iskind of like the companion that
comes out next fall, is kind ofcelebrating your holiday without
a loved one. I know a lot ofpeople think of like a tree you
actually plant as one way amemory tree can be about when
Marisa had passed away, 2014 thefirst holiday, the first
(10:27):
Christmas without her. Herfamily put up a Christmas tree,
but they called it the Marisatree, and we all got to bring an
ornament to come over and sharea special memory of her. And it
was just such a beautifultradition they had started. And
so when my editor had mentionedthe memory tree, I needed to
first get Teresa's blessing,because I kind of felt like I
(10:48):
got to be part of experiencingthat. I wanted to honor them and
make sure they'd be okay if Iused that as inspiration for a
story. And she was, when thebook comes out, you're going to
see her family and s and somefriends in the back of the
Marisa tree. It's kind of aChristmas story and a Greek book
in one. It's just a way a childcan use, like a Christmas tree
(11:10):
and making ornaments or findingornaments to share memories of
the loved one that's no longerthere in October, I think it
comes out.
Sarah Dabagh (11:19):
My visual is taking the Memory Box and
turning it inside out, right soall the memories are on display
on the outside. That's my visualas you describe this book. Is
there anything you learned abouthow children grieve that
surprised you, either in thattwo year editing process, or in
this after period where you'rereading these
Joanna Rowland (11:36):
reviews children, they manifest it in
different ways. And as ateacher, I've had quite a few
different years where I've had astudent that had lost a parent,
and one even the mom came in andtold me before that my student
knew. So all day, I wasthinking, Oh, his world is going
to change. So I got to see howchildren respond in different
(11:58):
ways. You know, you just want tobe a safe place, be there if
they need you. I mean, I thinkas it's such a personal thing
for every student and everyadult, how we grieve, it's just
honoring the journey andplanting seeds if they're ready
to take them.
Sarah Dabagh (12:15):
Do you have any thoughts about how parents can
approach the school can approachtelling the teacher what's
helpful to know to help supportstudents who
Joanna Rowland (12:24):
are going through grief. It's very helpful
if your child is going throughwhether it's a divorce or the
loss of someone they love, oreven moving, you know, some type
of big transition, it's goodjust to inform the teachers,
because when big changes happenfor children, communication is
the best thing, and thenteachers can always help by, you
(12:45):
know, giving resources tofamilies too, and they know
what's going on.
Brennan Wood (12:52):
Hi, I'm Brennan wood. I'm the executive director
of Dougie center, the Nationalgrief Center for Children and
Families, located in Portland,Oregon.
Daniel Eison (13:01):
I'd love to hear your story and how you came to
be the head of the Dougiecenter.
Brennan Wood (13:06):
So I actually walked through the doors of the
Dougie center for the first timein 1987 when I was 12 and my mom
had died. She died three daysafter my 12th birthday, and I
was fortunate enough to live inPortland, Oregon, and also that
my dad had heard about Dougiecenter because I needed more
(13:27):
support than I was getting. So Icame to Dougie Center as a kid,
and the Dougie Center providespeer support groups to grieving
kids before and after a death.
And I was very fortunate to goto Dougie center, because it was
the single most helpful thingthat happened in my life after
my mother's death. When I was atDougie center, I knew how
(13:48):
important it was to me tocontinue to give back to Dougie
center. I volunteered as ateenager for a lot of years. I
left Portland for a lot ofyears, and then I moved back to
Portland a little over 20 yearsago and started working at the
Dougie center 20 years ago, andbecame Executive Director almost
10 years ago now. Dougie centeris this really beautiful, unique
(14:10):
place. It was started in 1982 asthe first peer grief support
group for children and familiesin the nation and likely the
world, and has really become thegold standard for childhood
bereavement care and much of thenation and the world look to
Dougie Center as a model of howto work with children and
(14:32):
families who are grieving. And Ijust believe so much in what
Dougie center does because ofthe impact it had on my life,
and then also just beingfortunate enough to work there
and see the support that isprovided, and hear from the, you
know, 10s of 1000s of familiesthat have been impacted by the
(14:53):
support and resources thatDougie Center provides, I think
what
Unknown (14:59):
I'm. Hearing is at the age of 12, you walked into the
Dougie center, and in a way, younever left. That part of your
grieving heart has always beenentwined with the Dougie center.
And that brings us to the reasonwe wanted to bring you on today
is you were invited, based onyour work with the Dougie
center, to write a book aboutchildren's grief. Can you tell
us a little bit about how thatinvitation came, how what it
looked like is you were invitedto write a book about children's
(15:22):
grief, and I wonder if you couldtell us a little bit about what
that invitation looked
Brennan Wood (15:26):
like. Dougie center is this uniquely Portland
nonprofit, but has this impactworldwide. And I would also say
that a kids company, whichstarted a kids book about this
series of children's book isalso, you know, uniquely
Portland, but also now impactingnationwide and worldwide. And I
(15:48):
know a few folks that workedwith them on on different
titles. They have a tremendousamount of titles, and they're,
they're books that are, are forkids, about real subjects. The
first book that they publishedwas a kids book about racism.
And the founder of the company,Jelani memory, I was connected
to him through another author,and we started talking about
(16:09):
what it would look like for meto write a kids book about grief
in of course, in collaborationwith Dougie center, as one of
many titles that a kids bookabout does They're a tremendous
company that are that are reallyproviding wonderful resources to
parents to have realconversations with kids about
(16:30):
real things. And, you know, Ireally think that a kids company
about and Doug Eison are veryaligned in talking to kids and
telling kids the truth, and thatif kids are brave enough to ask
the question, then adults shouldbe brave enough to provide an
answer. And so that's how it allcame to be.
Unknown (16:51):
Something we like to talk about is how, you know,
there are kids books that arewritten, and kids, really people
of all ages, benefit, and manyadults also benefit tremendously
from kids books, especially whenthey're sensitive or an
emotional. Sensitive or anemotional topic, and I'm
wondering how you pictured youraudience as you wrote this
Brennan Wood (17:06):
book. I wanted to write a book that I would have
wanted to read when my mom died,and that would hopefully find
itself in the hands of kids andlikely with an adult reading it
with them and hopefully talkingto them about this subject, but
where kids might not have accessto additional resources, not
(17:27):
every town in America has achildren's bereavement program.
Unfortunately, maybe someday wewill. We're certainly working on
it through the National Alliancefor Children's grief, but I
really wanted there to be a bookthat would support kids in how
they were feeling when theymaybe didn't have access to
other resources. And although itis a kid's book, it's not your
(17:50):
traditional it's not a picturebook, it's not a story book,
it's a designed book that's alittle longer than your average
kid book and really talks aboutthe subject of grief, I
therefore was also hopeful thatit would impact families and
kids, of course, but also maybetheir teenage siblings and their
adult, you know, parent orcaretaker. And have actually
(18:13):
found a lot of people from allages reaching out and telling me
that the book has beenimpactful. So that's awesome. Is
Daniel Eison (18:20):
there an age or stage that this book is really
primed for? Is it targeted at aparticular age group?
Brennan Wood (18:27):
Well, the book itself says that it's for ages
six plus. And so I do thinkthat's, you know, that's about
right. Six plus is a good agegroup for this book. And I think
you know, most of the kids booksabout are around that age, maybe
five plus. Certainly, theintention behind all of the
books in this series are forthem to be read in
(18:50):
companionship, like an adult anda kid to read together.
Certainly older kids couldprobably read them on their own,
but the hope is that it willspark conversation and lead to
rich and lovely conversationsfor kids, and they're adults in
their life too. Six
Unknown (19:08):
plus is such an age range, right? Because a six year
old feels very different from a12 year old, and a 12 year old
feels very different from anadult all the way up. You know,
when you're writing this book inpicking language that you
thought would work for a sixyear old and a 12 year old and
an adult? An adult. What werethe considerations that made
that difficult? I would
Brennan Wood (19:26):
say one of the biggest considerations for me in
writing this book is reallybalancing the need to want to
highlight some of the morehopeful aspects that I could
offer being someone whose parentdied, you know, 37 years ago, at
this point, with not wanting tobright side things too much
(19:49):
right when, when you're a kidand you've had a parent or a
sibling die, it is. It's a lifechanging, all consuming thing.
And you know, I wanted to besure to offer some hope. Know in
the book, without trying tobelittle the realness of what
kids are going through, and alsowithout trying to bright side
(20:09):
that experience. Can you give
Unknown (20:11):
us an example of either the way that you worded
something or the way youapproached it?
Brennan Wood (20:16):
One example of that might be just offering a
list of emotions that kids maybe feeling, that's a really
extensive list of emotions thatactually includes things like
relief, because I think we as asociety tend to put grief into
this very limited scope of whatit is that it's just an emotion
(20:38):
and the only emotion is sadness.
When I believe grief is a yes,it is an emotional experience.
It's also a cognitiveexperience, a behavioral
experience. It can be aspiritual experience for people.
And to say that grief is onlyone emotion and it's only
sadness is just not true to whomost people's experience of
grief, and so giving kids theopportunity to see that there's
(21:02):
this huge list of emotions andand, yes, some of those are very
hard, very real, very deep, veryraw emotions. And alongside
that, you also can experiencehope or pride or relief, or some
of these things that you may notautomatically associate with
grief, but giving kids thatopportunity, but not making it
(21:24):
prescriptive, that they have tofind what might be seen as a
little bit more positive of anexperience or emotion. What
Unknown (21:33):
was it like to sit down and think I'm about to write a
book for the first time? Did youdid you know where to start? Was
there an inherent gut feelingabout where to start based on
your own grief work, or did thattake some exploration? Well,
Brennan Wood (21:45):
the wonderful thing about a kid's book about
the series is that it's really avery curated and structured
process that the companyactually goes through with their
authors. And so we did somewonderful pre work, but then
ultimately, we really sattogether in a kind of a day long
(22:06):
session to talk about the arc ofthe book and to talk about what
we wanted to be sure to include,and ended up doing a lot of the
writing of the book in thatsession, which was wonderful,
and then had the opportunity todo quite a few rounds of editing
and refining, but it's adifferent experience because
it's thoughtfully put togetherin coordination with the
(22:28):
company, and that's a differentexperience in a great way. I was
Unknown (22:32):
looking at the list of titles and getting ready for
this interview, and I'm socurious, how does this book
intersect with a kid's bookabout death, you know which one
came first. Are they sort ofdesigned to work together in
some way? Could you talk alittle bit about
Brennan Wood (22:47):
that? The kids book about death is a lot about
what, what is dying? What isdeath? What it what does it mean
to be alive? Therefore, whatdoes it mean to die? And
certainly touches a bit onfeelings and grief, for sure.
But the book that I wrote akid's book about grief, is
really about loss and grief, anddoesn't really get into kind of
(23:07):
what it means to die, and that'sa kid's book about death. So I
think they're actually wonderfulcompanions to one another. To
learn about what it means to dieis different than learning about
grief. And so I think they'reboth really important, and I
think they're very complimentaryof one another. And you can
grieve without death. Absolutelyyou can. I believe at Dougie
(23:28):
center, we believe grief is anatural, normal, healthy
response to loss of any kind,and that grief is a human
experience, and we grievebecause we're human and because
we're in relationship with oneanother in the world around us,
and if we lose something,whatever that may be, we we can
experience grief. And that'snatural and normal and healthy.
(23:51):
And so I think it's importantthat we talk about that. And
certainly in a kid's book aboutgrief, we talk about you can
experience grief for all sortsof things, and the book is
primarily centered around death,loss. You're going
Unknown (24:04):
to laugh at this. I have only written down one
question this whole time, andthat question is, why aren't
there more Dougie centers? Andthat's sort of the same idea.
Is, why aren't there more booksabout grief? It's a natural,
intrinsic part of the humanexperience that kids experience
at the same rate that adultsexperience. So why?
Brennan Wood (24:21):
Yes, in fact, one in 12 kids in the United States
right now will experience thedeath of a parent or a sibling
before they turn 18. That numbermore than doubles by the time
youth turn the age of 25 so itreally is very prevalent. And
you are right, there is notenough resources. There's not
(24:43):
enough support. We don't talkabout it enough. And I think,
you know, we live in a culturethat is averse to death and
certainly averse to talkingabout loss and grief, and I
think that there is often a pushto minimize. Is grief to you
know, say people have to move onfrom grief, that it should
(25:04):
happen in a in a very restrictedtime frame. And I think that,
unfortunately, I actually thinkthat is more harmful than
helpful, because what I believeis that grief is a lifelong
journey and experience, and thatthe more we actually try to fix
it, cure it, push it away. Theactual harder it can become for
(25:24):
families, right when weexperience it, go through it,
continue to talk about andcontinue to maintain a
relationship with people whodie. I think it's actually
healthier and creates a morelifelong journey that is
healthier for kids and families.
I
Daniel Eison (25:44):
recall a lot of conversation in the palliative
care world when recently, in theDSM five, they redefined
disordered grief as lastinglonger than six months. And
there was a lot of consternationabout that in a similar way that
you're speaking about. And Iwonder if this has something to
do with the, as you said,uniquely Portland nature of the
(26:05):
Dougie center. And I'm curious.
I've been thinking about thatsince you said it, and I am sure
our friends at OHSU know exactlywhat you mean. But I'm wondering
if you could talk a little bitmore about that, the culture
from which this book springs, orthe kind of ways that its home
in the Pacific Northwest hasinfluenced it.
Brennan Wood (26:23):
Portland tends to be a place that embraces unique
ideas and nurtures those whichis Dougie Center, which is a
kids book about and I also thinkthat it is a wonderful
opportunity that we have tohopefully kind of light a
different path forward when itcomes to loss and grief when it
(26:45):
comes to palliative care.
Daniel Eison (26:47):
Why do you think people find it so hard to talk
about these things, eitherspecifically with kids or just
in general, like you mentioned,that our culture has a hard time
with this stuff. What do youthink is at the root of that? I
Brennan Wood (26:58):
think that it can be really hard to talk about
loss and grief in general, andso then it can be even harder to
talk with kids about loss andgrief. Because if it's hard to
talk with adults one anotherabout it, it's I think it can be
even harder to talk with kids.
And I really do think some ofthat, especially when it comes
to kids, comes from wellintentioned places, right? You
(27:20):
don't want to see kids sad andhurting, if you can, you want to
help kids with that. And whathappens? I believe, certainly,
what happened to me is that Ihad a lot of well intentioned
adults who wanted to take mypain away. They wanted me to
feel better, and they wanted meto feel better quickly. But what
(27:41):
they didn't realize, and whatthe gift of Dougie Center
brought into my life, was thatit actually helped me a lot more
to feel the feelings and toallow for me to feel my grief
and not try to fix it or take itaway or invalidate those
feelings that can be reallyhard. I think it's hard for us
(28:03):
to allow people to sit in pain,right? We want to fix it and
make it better, andunfortunately, that just isn't
something we can do for oneanother. And so helping people
in general, to just be withtheir grief is really the more
helpful path forward, but thatalso can feel really hard in the
(28:26):
moment. I'll say just one morething about Dougie Center, which
you can totally cut out, but Ican't help but say it, which is
Dougie Center, which, again, isbased in Portland, relies on
volunteers, and we, all of ourgroups, are run by a Dougie
center staff person, which thatperson has at least a master's
level education in the socialservice field. But the majority
(28:47):
of the people who work with kidsare trained volunteers, and we
are a non profit. We don'tcharge our families at all. So
we're very dependent on ourcommunity and our world to come
together to support Dougiecenters services, and so for
those of your listeners that arein Portland, please consider
volunteering at Dougie center orsending folks our way if they
(29:08):
need support and resources. Wealso answer about 25,000 calls a
year for various resources andsupport, and we have hundreds of
free resources on our website,including we have a podcast
called grief out loud anddownloadable tip sheets and
activities and books and allsorts of things. So if anyone is
(29:28):
in need of support, or in aplace where they want to give a
little support to Dougie center,they can go to our website,
which is Dougie, D O, U G,y.org, and
Unknown (29:41):
for our listeners, we have it that way. You know, as
it was spelled out beautifully,here has a hyperlink in our show
notes as well that you can gofind.
Daniel Eison (29:53):
So Sarah, what are your thoughts about that
Sarah Dabagh (29:55):
episode? Yeah, it's been so long since we did
one of these. It feels nice tobe back in it. The thing.
Something that I am hung up on,and I don't know that this is
helpful or meaningful in anyway, but I'm just still so stuck
on the idea that the writing ofthe words and the illustrating
of the story are such parallelprocesses and don't intertwine
(30:17):
in the way that I imagined thatthey would. Because for me, the
pictures are such an importantpart of the book. For many of
our kids, who are young, who arenot readers, who are listening
audibly, but following alongvisually, it just seems like
they're so important. And I justam so amazed with these authors,
that the trust they put in theirillustrators as they send these
words out into into their hands.
Yeah,
Daniel Eison (30:40):
it's especially funny, I think, for us working
in palliative care, where we doa lot of work with words, and we
do a lot of workcollaboratively, but we're doing
it like, at the same time in thesame room, like handing it back
and forth between me and mysocial worker, a nurse
practitioner, and like, we'rejust, like, really tight and
really close. It strikes me alsoas, like, scary almost, to think
(31:00):
of saying what I want to say ina consult, and then just like
sending it away for someone elseto say the other parts. How do
Sarah Dabagh (31:07):
you typically use books as part of your
conversations? Are youintroducing them in order to
introduce concepts? Are youdoing gift giving? I don't. Our
team doesn't have children'sbooks. Oh, injuries. Oh, we
should have talked about thatearlier on. Yeah, our
Daniel Eison (31:21):
child life specialists use children's
books, but it's something thatturns out to be very separate
from our palliative care work.
Obviously, being in this episodehas made me want to have these
books to share them. We dorecommend them. Sometimes we'll
say, hey, we know this greatbook if you're looking for
something. Do
Sarah Dabagh (31:37):
you think here's your CME question, based on the
learning in this episode, youwould change your practice?
Daniel Eison (31:43):
Yeah, I think I would having the book dare to
give someone it's much morelikely that they're gonna
actually read it, as opposed to,like, going out and finding it.
And I will say I did find somechildren's books really useful
when I was talking to my ownkids about my own transplant,
and it was really useful inlike, getting conversations
started. I wasn't actuallytalking to them about death and
(32:05):
dying, which was a good thing,but I did use certain other
books to talk to my own kids attheir appropriate level of
preschool and elementary school,and it was very useful. So yes,
I think I will change mypractice.
Sarah Dabagh (32:18):
Okay, well, then I think I can give you 1.0 hours
of ama approved CME time forthis episode,
Daniel Eison (32:25):
just me, though, not any of our listeners. No,
yeah, we
Sarah Dabagh (32:31):
don't have the money for that, and you know it.
Daniel Eison (32:36):
Thanks for listening. Our theme song was
written by Kevin McLeod. You canfollow us on blue sky, where our
username is pdal dot bsky dotsocial. You can find the notes
for this episode and all theothers on our website. Pdal.org
if you'd like to submitthoughts, objections or ideas
for future episodes, pleasereach out through the email on
our site. This has been PD pal,see you next
Sarah Dabagh (32:58):
month. We also need a title, bibliotherapy.
That might
Unknown (33:01):
be a good one.
Something about judging books bycovers,
Sarah Dabagh (33:06):
by
Daniel Eison (33:06):
artwork. Yeah, because we talked about
illustrations, cover to cover,undercover, turning the page, we
got to save some of these reallygood ones that I'm coming up
with for when we do more bookepisodes. Just
Sarah Dabagh (33:20):
a new chapter, new chapter, Star Wars. I think
that's actually no it's a newhope. A New Hope. There's maybe
we just name our episodes asStar Wars episodes.
Daniel Eison (33:30):
I love it. Pdal, The Empire Strikes Back.
Sarah Dabagh (33:35):
We're still recording this. So that could
absolutely be a that could be alittle gift to our listeners.
Yeah,
Unknown (33:40):
everything about this is a gift to our listeners. You.
Dan. Hi. This is Sarah, and this is Dan, and we'd
(00:04):
like to welcome you back toPediPal,
Daniel Eison (00:06):
a podcast about all things pediatric palliative
care. The
Sarah Dabagh (00:10):
views in this podcast are ours alone and do
not represent our respectiveorganizations, and they do not
constitute medical advice.
Daniel Eison (00:17):
As we turn the page on this new chapter of
PediPal, we'd like to exploresomething that we haven't
covered
Sarah Dabagh (00:23):
before. We talk a lot about the different team
members on a pediatricpalliative care team, and it
occurred to us, as we werelooking back at the work we've
done until now that there's ateam member that actually is
very much a part of the room andvery much a part of a lot of
conversations that we have thatwe've never talked to, and
that's the authors of thechildren's books that we so
(00:45):
often use as tools and ashelpers and as guides as we talk
to families. And we thought itwould be really great to bring a
couple of those authors on totell us a little bit about what
it was like to become theauthors of children's grief and
processing books about the kindsof considerations they had to
put into the writing of thesebooks, and just to teach us
(01:06):
about the side of that that asmedical professionals, we just
know nothing about. And so we'revery excited to welcome on to
our favorite children's authors.
Joanna Rowland (01:19):
Hi, my name is Joanna Rowland, I am a picture
book author, and I write booksto help children through
difficult times. And I alsoteach elementary school in
California. My first book I kindof wrote, almost by accident. I
was at a family gatheringtalking about writing, and one
of the relatives said she hadwish there were positive books
(01:40):
on divorce, and so I halfjokingly said, All right, one,
not knowing that would become mydebut and always mom, forever,
dad. And a week before that cameout, the relative that was
talking to me, it was for hergranddaughter. That
granddaughter's father hadpassed away. And I was just
thinking, right before my bookcame out, oh, she doesn't need
my book anymore. She needs adifferent type of book, and I
(02:01):
hadn't thought about writingabout grief. I was looking for
books, you know, to send her,but none of them fit exactly
what I was hoping the book wouldfit for her. A lot of them were
on a loss for a grandparent, orthey were very specific, like
about a cancer journey. I justfelt there was a hole in the
market. And so that's kind ofwhat led me to think about
(02:22):
writing about the Memory Box. Ittook me two years to write it.
During that time, I was asynchronized swimming coach, and
one of my swimmers had gottensick in the process of me
starting to write this book, andunfortunately, she passed away.
So I knew this grief book I waswriting, it had to be relatable
to not only a father, but asister, a daughter, teammates
(02:46):
that lost friends. The challengewas for me to figure out, how
can I write it so the readerdoes not know who passed away,
so can relate to anybody. Aftermany edits and revisions in
going to conferences, gettingfeedback, it just kind of came
together and fell in the righthands with the publisher. It did
at the time. It was called sparkhouse.
Daniel Eison (03:05):
I'm glad you mentioned synchronized swimming,
because I was going to ask,there's this one page in the
book where the protagonist triesa new sport, and it was
synchronized swimming. I wasgoing to ask why that sport, if
there was a reason you chose it.
But I think the other thing thatyou mentioned that I find so
important is this balancebetween specificity and
generality, right? It feels likethe book walks this line
(03:26):
beautifully in a lot of ways,but I imagine that's challenging
when you're writing to find thatkind of middle voice between
being too specific and toogeneral.
Joanna Rowland (03:38):
Yes, and that's probably why it took two years
of revisions. I had tried it inthird person, different types of
structures. The only way I coulddo what I wanted it to do was
through first person, becausethen the reader didn't have to
identify who it was, but youcould still feel it was general
enough, like the words needed tobe general and personable, like
(03:59):
she talks about places they'vebeen without telling you what
the places were, and then theillustrator gets to fill in that
part of the story. And we werevery fortunate with Thea Baker
as the illustrator. Normally,when you sell a book, you
wouldn't have contact with theillustrator as part of the
process, but she put in somelittle secret nods, like the
(04:19):
Synchronized Swimming float forthe family, one of the families,
it was in memory of thatnormally wouldn't happen, and
I'm so thankful it did. It seemsso strange
Sarah Dabagh (04:29):
to me, from a complete outsider's perspective,
that the illustrator wouldn't bein direct communication, or even
in direct back and forth. Tellme a little bit about what it
was like to send your book outinto the world, not knowing what
the pictures would look likewhen I did
Joanna Rowland (04:41):
write the Memory Box. I did put an art note to
say, I don't want the reader toknow who passed away, but I
wasn't in specific on what thecharacter looked like if it was
a boy or girl. And I guess thethought behind that is, when I
send my words in, theillustrator hasn't looked at my
words. You know? And it's kindof giving them that same respect
(05:02):
of their art to create their ownstory with the words only little
art notes I put in and then Isnuck in that Synchro floor,
because, you know, the worstcould happen. They say, No, you
mentioned
Sarah Dabagh (05:14):
going to conferences getting feedback in
this two year process. How didthe memory book evolve in that
time, and what was the biggestsort of shift in how the book
looked, whether or not it wasdirectly information you got
from conference or feedback youreceived from a person reading
the book. When I
Joanna Rowland (05:30):
went to some conferences, when I was still
figuring out the middle of thebook, I had a art director. It
was one of the members of thisround table, and she had just
planted the idea you could evendo like a wordless spread. So it
just helps me play withdifferent textures or lack of
words. I went to a bigcircumference, and I brought two
versions, and it just confirmedit needed to be first person for
(05:54):
me to do what I wanted it to do.
So I think just gettingfeedback, because you hope your
words make people feel so if youcan tell there's something
missing, people don't feelsomething and so that kind of
helps, you know when you're onthe right path. Were
Sarah Dabagh (06:07):
you surprised by the reception of this book?
Because it is everywhere, and I,you know, recognize that I work
in a very specific kind ofeverywhere, but it is really
well utilized. Yeah,
Joanna Rowland (06:20):
I think I was surprised, because I'm a teacher
by day. So, like, as much as Iwould love to say, Oh, I could
write full time, you know, I,you know, I balanced motherhood
and teaching and then writing.
And I wasn't like a well knownwriter, you know, to begin with.
I had just had a always, mom,forever, dad come out, like in a
smaller press, you know, so Idon't think people knew me. So
(06:41):
to find out that it resonatedwith so many people, was
touching and that it found itsway to the market, I had hoped
it had found its way to thehospital. Like I can't go
necessarily go into anybookstore and see it, but to
know child life specialists andcounselors are using it, that's
where I'm just in awe that itkind of found its place, because
(07:01):
I'm not a good marketer.
Daniel Eison (07:05):
Have you gotten feedback about this, either from
kids who have had it read tothem or read it, or, I guess,
from those counselors and childlife specialists, I guess, since
it's now in the place you hopedit would be like, what kind of
the feedback have you gotten? So
Joanna Rowland (07:21):
I think the Memory Box came out in 2017 and
in 2018 Saint Jude's someonethat worked there reached out to
me to let me know, for their dayof remembrance, they were going
to be reading that book andgiving it to families. And I
think she had said, like about145 families from different
parts of the world wereattending. So to know that that
(07:44):
you know was going to be used tohelp families, was really
meaningful. On Amazon, I theysay, Don't read reviews, but I
do peak once in a while, andthere are over 2000 reviews for
it. So sometimes I'll read andpeople leave a message on how
they used it and created amemory box with the children in
their life. But as a teacher atthe school prior to the one I
(08:07):
work at now, I think I wasteaching kindergarten or TK at
the time, but a partner teacherhad a student where his mom had
passed away, and he nevermentioned her. Maybe a month or
two into the school year, thecounselor used my book and he
made a memory box, and then hetook it for show and tell to his
class, and he told his class forthe first time about his mom. So
(08:27):
to know a child that didn't knowhow to talk about the loss of
his mom, that it helped him talkabout his mom that was like, I
would I cry thinking about itnow. But so I think that, you
know, to help kids communicate.
Sarah Dabagh (08:40):
I think books are such a safe place to find words
to cry to Yes, for kids andadults. And so it makes a lot of
sense that that's where yournatural talents and passion
ended up. And I think that's oneof the beauties of a children's
book, is it can be a familyevent, it can be a ceremony of
remembrance event, or it can bea private event, reading a book
like that.
Joanna Rowland (09:00):
And I think that's what I love about
teaching, is I get paid to readpicture books every day, and
books are kind of like a safeplace for kids to experience,
maybe something they haven'texperienced, but maybe one of
their friends have experienced,or something they might have to
encounter in the future to see.
You know, it will be okay indifferent ways you can handle
situation. So I love picturebooks as a gentle way to help
(09:22):
children learn how to copethrough life.
Sarah Dabagh (09:26):
So 2017 it is now.
I had to do some math eightyears later, believe it or not,
if you could go back, is thereanything now, either in the way
your personal understanding ofgrief has changed, or the
feedback you've gotten over theyears? Is there anything you
would change about the book ifyou were writing it today?
Joanna Rowland (09:43):
So the Memory Box book then had a journal
called the memory book, a griefjournal. Sometimes in a picture
book, you're limited to how manywords you can put on a page. So
with the journal, I could talkabout different seasons, because
there were other aspects I wouldhave loved. To include it in the
book. So the journal, I got todo a little bit more of that.
(10:04):
Then the memory tree, which iskind of like the companion that
comes out next fall, is kind ofcelebrating your holiday without
a loved one. I know a lot ofpeople think of like a tree you
actually plant as one way amemory tree can be about when
Marisa had passed away, 2014 thefirst holiday, the first
(10:27):
Christmas without her. Herfamily put up a Christmas tree,
but they called it the Marisatree, and we all got to bring an
ornament to come over and sharea special memory of her. And it
was just such a beautifultradition they had started. And
so when my editor had mentionedthe memory tree, I needed to
first get Teresa's blessing,because I kind of felt like I
(10:48):
got to be part of experiencingthat. I wanted to honor them and
make sure they'd be okay if Iused that as inspiration for a
story. And she was, when thebook comes out, you're going to
see her family and s and somefriends in the back of the
Marisa tree. It's kind of aChristmas story and a Greek book
in one. It's just a way a childcan use, like a Christmas tree
(11:10):
and making ornaments or findingornaments to share memories of
the loved one that's no longerthere in October, I think it
comes out.
Sarah Dabagh (11:19):
My visual is taking the Memory Box and
turning it inside out, right soall the memories are on display
on the outside. That's my visualas you describe this book. Is
there anything you learned abouthow children grieve that
surprised you, either in thattwo year editing process, or in
this after period where you'rereading these
Joanna Rowland (11:36):
reviews children, they manifest it in
different ways. And as ateacher, I've had quite a few
different years where I've had astudent that had lost a parent,
and one even the mom came in andtold me before that my student
knew. So all day, I wasthinking, Oh, his world is going
to change. So I got to see howchildren respond in different
(11:58):
ways. You know, you just want tobe a safe place, be there if
they need you. I mean, I thinkas it's such a personal thing
for every student and everyadult, how we grieve, it's just
honoring the journey andplanting seeds if they're ready
to take them.
Sarah Dabagh (12:15):
Do you have any thoughts about how parents can
approach the school can approachtelling the teacher what's
helpful to know to help supportstudents who
Joanna Rowland (12:24):
are going through grief. It's very helpful
if your child is going throughwhether it's a divorce or the
loss of someone they love, oreven moving, you know, some type
of big transition, it's goodjust to inform the teachers,
because when big changes happenfor children, communication is
the best thing, and thenteachers can always help by, you
(12:45):
know, giving resources tofamilies too, and they know
what's going on.
Brennan Wood (12:52):
Hi, I'm Brennan wood. I'm the executive director
of Dougie center, the Nationalgrief Center for Children and
Families, located in Portland,Oregon.
Daniel Eison (13:01):
I'd love to hear your story and how you came to
be the head of the Dougiecenter.
Brennan Wood (13:06):
So I actually walked through the doors of the
Dougie center for the first timein 1987 when I was 12 and my mom
had died. She died three daysafter my 12th birthday, and I
was fortunate enough to live inPortland, Oregon, and also that
my dad had heard about Dougiecenter because I needed more
(13:27):
support than I was getting. So Icame to Dougie Center as a kid,
and the Dougie Center providespeer support groups to grieving
kids before and after a death.
And I was very fortunate to goto Dougie center, because it was
the single most helpful thingthat happened in my life after
my mother's death. When I was atDougie center, I knew how
(13:48):
important it was to me tocontinue to give back to Dougie
center. I volunteered as ateenager for a lot of years. I
left Portland for a lot ofyears, and then I moved back to
Portland a little over 20 yearsago and started working at the
Dougie center 20 years ago, andbecame Executive Director almost
10 years ago now. Dougie centeris this really beautiful, unique
(14:10):
place. It was started in 1982 asthe first peer grief support
group for children and familiesin the nation and likely the
world, and has really become thegold standard for childhood
bereavement care and much of thenation and the world look to
Dougie Center as a model of howto work with children and
(14:32):
families who are grieving. And Ijust believe so much in what
Dougie center does because ofthe impact it had on my life,
and then also just beingfortunate enough to work there
and see the support that isprovided, and hear from the, you
know, 10s of 1000s of familiesthat have been impacted by the
(14:53):
support and resources thatDougie Center provides, I think
what
Unknown (14:59):
I'm. Hearing is at the age of 12, you walked into the
Dougie center, and in a way, younever left. That part of your
grieving heart has always beenentwined with the Dougie center.
And that brings us to the reasonwe wanted to bring you on today
is you were invited, based onyour work with the Dougie
center, to write a book aboutchildren's grief. Can you tell
us a little bit about how thatinvitation came, how what it
looked like is you were invitedto write a book about children's
(15:22):
grief, and I wonder if you couldtell us a little bit about what
that invitation looked
Brennan Wood (15:26):
like. Dougie center is this uniquely Portland
nonprofit, but has this impactworldwide. And I would also say
that a kids company, whichstarted a kids book about this
series of children's book isalso, you know, uniquely
Portland, but also now impactingnationwide and worldwide. And I
(15:48):
know a few folks that workedwith them on on different
titles. They have a tremendousamount of titles, and they're,
they're books that are, are forkids, about real subjects. The
first book that they publishedwas a kids book about racism.
And the founder of the company,Jelani memory, I was connected
to him through another author,and we started talking about
(16:09):
what it would look like for meto write a kids book about grief
in of course, in collaborationwith Dougie center, as one of
many titles that a kids bookabout does They're a tremendous
company that are that are reallyproviding wonderful resources to
parents to have realconversations with kids about
(16:30):
real things. And, you know, Ireally think that a kids company
about and Doug Eison are veryaligned in talking to kids and
telling kids the truth, and thatif kids are brave enough to ask
the question, then adults shouldbe brave enough to provide an
answer. And so that's how it allcame to be.
Unknown (16:51):
Something we like to talk about is how, you know,
there are kids books that arewritten, and kids, really people
of all ages, benefit, and manyadults also benefit tremendously
from kids books, especially whenthey're sensitive or an
emotional. Sensitive or anemotional topic, and I'm
wondering how you pictured youraudience as you wrote this
Brennan Wood (17:06):
book. I wanted to write a book that I would have
wanted to read when my mom died,and that would hopefully find
itself in the hands of kids andlikely with an adult reading it
with them and hopefully talkingto them about this subject, but
where kids might not have accessto additional resources, not
(17:27):
every town in America has achildren's bereavement program.
Unfortunately, maybe someday wewill. We're certainly working on
it through the National Alliancefor Children's grief, but I
really wanted there to be a bookthat would support kids in how
they were feeling when theymaybe didn't have access to
other resources. And although itis a kid's book, it's not your
(17:50):
traditional it's not a picturebook, it's not a story book,
it's a designed book that's alittle longer than your average
kid book and really talks aboutthe subject of grief, I
therefore was also hopeful thatit would impact families and
kids, of course, but also maybetheir teenage siblings and their
adult, you know, parent orcaretaker. And have actually
(18:13):
found a lot of people from allages reaching out and telling me
that the book has beenimpactful. So that's awesome. Is
Daniel Eison (18:20):
there an age or stage that this book is really
primed for? Is it targeted at aparticular age group?
Brennan Wood (18:27):
Well, the book itself says that it's for ages
six plus. And so I do thinkthat's, you know, that's about
right. Six plus is a good agegroup for this book. And I think
you know, most of the kids booksabout are around that age, maybe
five plus. Certainly, theintention behind all of the
books in this series are forthem to be read in
(18:50):
companionship, like an adult anda kid to read together.
Certainly older kids couldprobably read them on their own,
but the hope is that it willspark conversation and lead to
rich and lovely conversationsfor kids, and they're adults in
their life too. Six
Unknown (19:08):
plus is such an age range, right? Because a six year
old feels very different from a12 year old, and a 12 year old
feels very different from anadult all the way up. You know,
when you're writing this book inpicking language that you
thought would work for a sixyear old and a 12 year old and
an adult? An adult. What werethe considerations that made
that difficult? I would
Brennan Wood (19:26):
say one of the biggest considerations for me in
writing this book is reallybalancing the need to want to
highlight some of the morehopeful aspects that I could
offer being someone whose parentdied, you know, 37 years ago, at
this point, with not wanting tobright side things too much
(19:49):
right when, when you're a kidand you've had a parent or a
sibling die, it is. It's a lifechanging, all consuming thing.
And you know, I wanted to besure to offer some hope. Know in
the book, without trying tobelittle the realness of what
kids are going through, and alsowithout trying to bright side
(20:09):
that experience. Can you give
Unknown (20:11):
us an example of either the way that you worded
something or the way youapproached it?
Brennan Wood (20:16):
One example of that might be just offering a
list of emotions that kids maybe feeling, that's a really
extensive list of emotions thatactually includes things like
relief, because I think we as asociety tend to put grief into
this very limited scope of whatit is that it's just an emotion
(20:38):
and the only emotion is sadness.
When I believe grief is a yes,it is an emotional experience.
It's also a cognitiveexperience, a behavioral
experience. It can be aspiritual experience for people.
And to say that grief is onlyone emotion and it's only
sadness is just not true to whomost people's experience of
grief, and so giving kids theopportunity to see that there's
(21:02):
this huge list of emotions andand, yes, some of those are very
hard, very real, very deep, veryraw emotions. And alongside
that, you also can experiencehope or pride or relief, or some
of these things that you may notautomatically associate with
grief, but giving kids thatopportunity, but not making it
(21:24):
prescriptive, that they have tofind what might be seen as a
little bit more positive of anexperience or emotion. What
Unknown (21:33):
was it like to sit down and think I'm about to write a
book for the first time? Did youdid you know where to start? Was
there an inherent gut feelingabout where to start based on
your own grief work, or did thattake some exploration? Well,
Brennan Wood (21:45):
the wonderful thing about a kid's book about
the series is that it's really avery curated and structured
process that the companyactually goes through with their
authors. And so we did somewonderful pre work, but then
ultimately, we really sattogether in a kind of a day long
(22:06):
session to talk about the arc ofthe book and to talk about what
we wanted to be sure to include,and ended up doing a lot of the
writing of the book in thatsession, which was wonderful,
and then had the opportunity todo quite a few rounds of editing
and refining, but it's adifferent experience because
it's thoughtfully put togetherin coordination with the
(22:28):
company, and that's a differentexperience in a great way. I was
Unknown (22:32):
looking at the list of titles and getting ready for
this interview, and I'm socurious, how does this book
intersect with a kid's bookabout death, you know which one
came first. Are they sort ofdesigned to work together in
some way? Could you talk alittle bit about
Brennan Wood (22:47):
that? The kids book about death is a lot about
what, what is dying? What isdeath? What it what does it mean
to be alive? Therefore, whatdoes it mean to die? And
certainly touches a bit onfeelings and grief, for sure.
But the book that I wrote akid's book about grief, is
really about loss and grief, anddoesn't really get into kind of
(23:07):
what it means to die, and that'sa kid's book about death. So I
think they're actually wonderfulcompanions to one another. To
learn about what it means to dieis different than learning about
grief. And so I think they'reboth really important, and I
think they're very complimentaryof one another. And you can
grieve without death. Absolutelyyou can. I believe at Dougie
(23:28):
center, we believe grief is anatural, normal, healthy
response to loss of any kind,and that grief is a human
experience, and we grievebecause we're human and because
we're in relationship with oneanother in the world around us,
and if we lose something,whatever that may be, we we can
experience grief. And that'snatural and normal and healthy.
(23:51):
And so I think it's importantthat we talk about that. And
certainly in a kid's book aboutgrief, we talk about you can
experience grief for all sortsof things, and the book is
primarily centered around death,loss. You're going
Unknown (24:04):
to laugh at this. I have only written down one
question this whole time, andthat question is, why aren't
there more Dougie centers? Andthat's sort of the same idea.
Is, why aren't there more booksabout grief? It's a natural,
intrinsic part of the humanexperience that kids experience
at the same rate that adultsexperience. So why?
Brennan Wood (24:21):
Yes, in fact, one in 12 kids in the United States
right now will experience thedeath of a parent or a sibling
before they turn 18. That numbermore than doubles by the time
youth turn the age of 25 so itreally is very prevalent. And
you are right, there is notenough resources. There's not
(24:43):
enough support. We don't talkabout it enough. And I think,
you know, we live in a culturethat is averse to death and
certainly averse to talkingabout loss and grief, and I
think that there is often a pushto minimize. Is grief to you
know, say people have to move onfrom grief, that it should
(25:04):
happen in a in a very restrictedtime frame. And I think that,
unfortunately, I actually thinkthat is more harmful than
helpful, because what I believeis that grief is a lifelong
journey and experience, and thatthe more we actually try to fix
it, cure it, push it away. Theactual harder it can become for
(25:24):
families, right when weexperience it, go through it,
continue to talk about andcontinue to maintain a
relationship with people whodie. I think it's actually
healthier and creates a morelifelong journey that is
healthier for kids and families.
I
Daniel Eison (25:44):
recall a lot of conversation in the palliative
care world when recently, in theDSM five, they redefined
disordered grief as lastinglonger than six months. And
there was a lot of consternationabout that in a similar way that
you're speaking about. And Iwonder if this has something to
do with the, as you said,uniquely Portland nature of the
(26:05):
Dougie center. And I'm curious.
I've been thinking about thatsince you said it, and I am sure
our friends at OHSU know exactlywhat you mean. But I'm wondering
if you could talk a little bitmore about that, the culture
from which this book springs, orthe kind of ways that its home
in the Pacific Northwest hasinfluenced it.
Brennan Wood (26:23):
Portland tends to be a place that embraces unique
ideas and nurtures those whichis Dougie Center, which is a
kids book about and I also thinkthat it is a wonderful
opportunity that we have tohopefully kind of light a
different path forward when itcomes to loss and grief when it
(26:45):
comes to palliative care.
Daniel Eison (26:47):
Why do you think people find it so hard to talk
about these things, eitherspecifically with kids or just
in general, like you mentioned,that our culture has a hard time
with this stuff. What do youthink is at the root of that? I
Brennan Wood (26:58):
think that it can be really hard to talk about
loss and grief in general, andso then it can be even harder to
talk with kids about loss andgrief. Because if it's hard to
talk with adults one anotherabout it, it's I think it can be
even harder to talk with kids.
And I really do think some ofthat, especially when it comes
to kids, comes from wellintentioned places, right? You
(27:20):
don't want to see kids sad andhurting, if you can, you want to
help kids with that. And whathappens? I believe, certainly,
what happened to me is that Ihad a lot of well intentioned
adults who wanted to take mypain away. They wanted me to
feel better, and they wanted meto feel better quickly. But what
(27:41):
they didn't realize, and whatthe gift of Dougie Center
brought into my life, was thatit actually helped me a lot more
to feel the feelings and toallow for me to feel my grief
and not try to fix it or take itaway or invalidate those
feelings that can be reallyhard. I think it's hard for us
(28:03):
to allow people to sit in pain,right? We want to fix it and
make it better, andunfortunately, that just isn't
something we can do for oneanother. And so helping people
in general, to just be withtheir grief is really the more
helpful path forward, but thatalso can feel really hard in the
(28:26):
moment. I'll say just one morething about Dougie Center, which
you can totally cut out, but Ican't help but say it, which is
Dougie Center, which, again, isbased in Portland, relies on
volunteers, and we, all of ourgroups, are run by a Dougie
center staff person, which thatperson has at least a master's
level education in the socialservice field. But the majority
(28:47):
of the people who work with kidsare trained volunteers, and we
are a non profit. We don'tcharge our families at all. So
we're very dependent on ourcommunity and our world to come
together to support Dougiecenters services, and so for
those of your listeners that arein Portland, please consider
volunteering at Dougie center orsending folks our way if they
(29:08):
need support and resources. Wealso answer about 25,000 calls a
year for various resources andsupport, and we have hundreds of
free resources on our website,including we have a podcast
called grief out loud anddownloadable tip sheets and
activities and books and allsorts of things. So if anyone is
(29:28):
in need of support, or in aplace where they want to give a
little support to Dougie center,they can go to our website,
which is Dougie, D O, U G,y.org, and
Unknown (29:41):
for our listeners, we have it that way. You know, as
it was spelled out beautifully,here has a hyperlink in our show
notes as well that you can gofind.
Daniel Eison (29:53):
So Sarah, what are your thoughts about that
Sarah Dabagh (29:55):
episode? Yeah, it's been so long since we did
one of these. It feels nice tobe back in it. The thing.
Something that I am hung up on,and I don't know that this is
helpful or meaningful in anyway, but I'm just still so stuck
on the idea that the writing ofthe words and the illustrating
of the story are such parallelprocesses and don't intertwine
(30:17):
in the way that I imagined thatthey would. Because for me, the
pictures are such an importantpart of the book. For many of
our kids, who are young, who arenot readers, who are listening
audibly, but following alongvisually, it just seems like
they're so important. And I justam so amazed with these authors,
that the trust they put in theirillustrators as they send these
words out into into their hands.
Yeah,
Daniel Eison (30:40):
it's especially funny, I think, for us working
in palliative care, where we doa lot of work with words, and we
do a lot of workcollaboratively, but we're doing
it like, at the same time in thesame room, like handing it back
and forth between me and mysocial worker, a nurse
practitioner, and like, we'rejust, like, really tight and
really close. It strikes me alsoas, like, scary almost, to think
(31:00):
of saying what I want to say ina consult, and then just like
sending it away for someone elseto say the other parts. How do
Sarah Dabagh (31:07):
you typically use books as part of your
conversations? Are youintroducing them in order to
introduce concepts? Are youdoing gift giving? I don't. Our
team doesn't have children'sbooks. Oh, injuries. Oh, we
should have talked about thatearlier on. Yeah, our
Daniel Eison (31:21):
child life specialists use children's
books, but it's something thatturns out to be very separate
from our palliative care work.
Obviously, being in this episodehas made me want to have these
books to share them. We dorecommend them. Sometimes we'll
say, hey, we know this greatbook if you're looking for
something. Do
Sarah Dabagh (31:37):
you think here's your CME question, based on the
learning in this episode, youwould change your practice?
Daniel Eison (31:43):
Yeah, I think I would having the book dare to
give someone it's much morelikely that they're gonna
actually read it, as opposed to,like, going out and finding it.
And I will say I did find somechildren's books really useful
when I was talking to my ownkids about my own transplant,
and it was really useful inlike, getting conversations
started. I wasn't actuallytalking to them about death and
(32:05):
dying, which was a good thing,but I did use certain other
books to talk to my own kids attheir appropriate level of
preschool and elementary school,and it was very useful. So yes,
I think I will change mypractice.
Sarah Dabagh (32:18):
Okay, well, then I think I can give you 1.0 hours
of ama approved CME time forthis episode,
Daniel Eison (32:25):
just me, though, not any of our listeners. No,
yeah, we
Sarah Dabagh (32:31):
don't have the money for that, and you know it.
Daniel Eison (32:36):
Thanks for listening. Our theme song was
written by Kevin McLeod. You canfollow us on blue sky, where our
username is pdal dot bsky dotsocial. You can find the notes
for this episode and all theothers on our website. Pdal.org
if you'd like to submitthoughts, objections or ideas
for future episodes, pleasereach out through the email on
our site. This has been PD pal,see you next
Sarah Dabagh (32:58):
month. We also need a title, bibliotherapy.
That might
Unknown (33:01):
be a good one.
Something about judging books bycovers,
Sarah Dabagh (33:06):
by
Daniel Eison (33:06):
artwork. Yeah, because we talked about
illustrations, cover to cover,undercover, turning the page, we
got to save some of these reallygood ones that I'm coming up
with for when we do more bookepisodes. Just
Sarah Dabagh (33:20):
a new chapter, new chapter, Star Wars. I think
that's actually no it's a newhope. A New Hope. There's maybe
we just name our episodes asStar Wars episodes.
Daniel Eison (33:30):
I love it. Pdal, The Empire Strikes Back.
Sarah Dabagh (33:35):
We're still recording this. So that could
absolutely be a that could be alittle gift to our listeners.
Yeah,
Unknown (33:40):
everything about this is a gift to our listeners. You.
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