July 8, 2025 • 23 mins
We’ve heard all the usual suspects when it comes to remote engagement—Slack check-ins, virtual happy hours, maybe an annual engagement survey if we’re lucky. But what if the problem isn’t the tools, but the assumptions? In this episode, David Rice sits down with Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi, whose recent qualitative study of remote workers in Nigeria reveals a much deeper, more nuanced picture of what truly drives—or erodes—remote engagement.
Adora walks us through her seven-part framework that emerged from conversations with 24 remote workers. Spoiler: it’s not just about more communication; it’s about better connection. From the physical realities of working without reliable electricity, to the surprising role that fun plays in fostering commitment, this conversation strips engagement down to its real-world components—beyond perks and policies. If you think your team is “fine,” you may just be missing the silence before the storm.
Related Links:
- Join the People Managing People community forum
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Dr. Adora on LinkedIn
- Check out Dr. Adora’s website and Kendor Consulting Ltd
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (00:00):
When people don't say anything, trust
(00:01):
me, they've made assumptions.
And assumptions are thelowest level of knowledge.
They're planning, withoutthe conversations.
They're just saying,you know what?
I can't see any senseof progress here.
It doesn't look like there'sany plans for me here.
And because they don'tknow, they're not gonna
ask you to find out.
They're just gonna make theirplans, plan their exits, plan
(00:22):
something for themselves.
So I would say if you're notcommunicating on a deeper
level, then it's a red flag.
David Rice (00:31):
Welcome to the People Managing People podcast.
We're on a mission to builda better world of work and to
help you create happy, healthy,and productive workplaces.
I'm your host, David Rice.
My guest today isAdora Ikwuemesi.
As you could maybe tell from theaudio quality in that excerpt
at the start, this episode wasrecorded a little differently.
Adora and I met at a conferenceback at the beginning of
(00:52):
May called Running Remote.
It's a two day showcaseof all things remote work
from best practices to newstudies and new technology.
Adora was speaking at theconference, presenting some
research she'd done aboutremote engagement, looking
specifically at a groupof employees in Nigeria.
I wanted to sit down for a deepdive with her on the topic.
So between sessions andnetworking hours, we found a
(01:14):
shady spot out of the Texasheat and had the following chat.
Forgive the birds and thebackground noise, but hey,
such is the challenge ofrecording live and in person.
So without further ado,here's my chat with Adora.
Thought you conducted aqualitative study of 24
remote workers in Nigeria, andI'm curious, what initially
(01:35):
inspired you to deep dive intoremote engagement research
and what surprised you themost about what you found?
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (01:41):
I'd say I was an employee a long time ago.
I've been running my ownbusiness for 15 years,
but there was a time I wasdisengaged myself, and I've
always been curious, especiallywhen I became a manager.
I was of work.
I was curious.
I've experienced disengagementmyself and I was curious about
what made people engaged at workand then the pandemic hit and we
(02:04):
all had to work remotely and I.
We've been pursuing the subjectof engagement without much, and
now we have to work remotely.
So I thought, you know what?
It would be good.
I was just embarking ona doctorate research and
I knew I wanted to studyengagement, but then because
(02:24):
we were working remotely,I thought it would be very
interesting to study engagementin remote work because it
would be very relevant and.
Even though at the time itwasn't clear if we were going
to continue working remotely orgo back to the office, I knew
that this would be game changingif I could gather some insights
(02:45):
and help people who are workingremotely understand engagement
in remote work, et cetera.
David Rice (02:51):
Now, the framework that you created, it
identifies seven key driversof remote work engagement.
Can you take us throughthat a little bit?
And I'm curious, whichdriver do organizations most
consistently like overlookor, and why is it so critical?
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (03:05):
Okay.
The thing is likethe good things.
I knew that by studyingengagement, it's not
anything that we'venot heard about, right?
So these seven drivers,they're probably not areas
that we have not, we'renot familiar with, right?
Like things like leadership,things like work, the
way work is designed orthe environment, however.
(03:27):
Remote work is adifferent context.
Okay.
When we work in the office, it'sa different work environment.
Remote work is characterizedby three main characteristics.
One loan working, youare working alone.
Two, there's a reliance ontechnology, like you need
technology to be connected.
And thirdly, but nowhereleast is the fact that,
(03:52):
it involves autonomy and.
Of people actually work at home.
So looking at those factors,it's a different context because
when we're in the office is astandardized environment, right?
But when, if 80% of peopleare working from their home,
it means that your officeis different from my office,
(04:15):
it's different from heroffice, it's different from
Tom's office, Sarah's office.
So we don't havea standard office.
I may have a dedicated space.
With a desk, a fancy chair,and you on the other hand,
may be working with in thesame room with your sister,
or you might be sharingor sitting on the floor.
(04:35):
Exactly.
Or if you are like someof the remote workers
that you know I work with,you might share a room.
You might live in avery noisy environment.
Yeah.
You may not have a nice deskor you might just be using
the table in the kitchen.
Yeah.
And then of course you mightbe in a city that has power
(04:56):
outages, like in Africa whereit's prone or the internet
connection may not be great.
So that in itself changes thecontext, the environmental
context, and that wasvery key for the study.
So when we talk about thefactors, we talk about
seven factors, right?
Some of them we already know.
In fact, all of them wealready know, and I'll
(05:16):
just run through them.
Lifestyle benefits,it's a factor.
What do I mean by that?
People love working remotely.
The flexibility is a benefit.
And if you take it away frompeople will not be happy.
So that's an obvious one.
'cause when you look atthe debates online, that
people are like I don'twanna return to the office.
If they make me returnthe office, I'm quitting.
(05:37):
So I think that'san obvious one.
Leadership and management.
Hey, come on, good.
Leadership is essential.
If your leadership cares, ifyou feel like, you have good
HR management practices, goodpolicies, those are obvious,
those enhance engagementbecause some companies started
working remotely by accident.
(05:58):
So they didn't have policies.
Some leaders, some of thereasons why you're getting
the return to office mandatesbecause the leadership
doesn't trust the employees.
They think they're not working.
So things like that.
So leadership and managementis another driver.
Another one is relationshipsand communication.
That's very key because oneof the things that gets cuts
(06:19):
off when you start workingremotely is the connection,
the human connection.
Even though people tend tosay, nah, work is work, but
working remotely, disconnects,and when you're in the office,
connection happens by accident.
It happens all the time.
Ah, you just walk inby past each other.
Hey, hi.
You catch up whenyou working remotely.
(06:42):
To be conscious, you have tobe very intentional about it.
So relationships andcommunication, that
was, one of the drivers.
Another driver, a verykey one was work design.
The way work is set up,whether it's meaningful,
whether it's purposeful,and whether it's fun.
You talked about surprising.
One of the mostsurprising was fun.
(07:03):
I couldn't believehow frequently people
mentioned fun work.
I was like.
Isn't work, just work.
But people having fun at workwith other people was very key.
So fun work, I would say forme, was the most surprising.
I couldn't believe howmany times people mentioned
another key factor, whichis, I would say obvious
(07:24):
now is the environment.
I remember I already mentionedthat remote work is a
different work environmentanyway, so environmental
factors, and when we talkabout environmental factors,
I. Immediate environment,which is your workspace.
So that's your, theergonomics, your chair, but
also things like heat noise.
(07:47):
Which people don'treally consider.
Yeah.
And even the environment, thenational context, the country,
because in the Nigerian context,power outages were an issue.
The infrastructure.
And how does thisaffect engagement?
I want to work.
They've just caughtoff to pacify.
So no matter how motivatedand energized I am, I mean
(08:10):
someone talk to me abouthaving to join a session
with a torch lights, right?
Yeah.
Imagine having to do a zoomsession with a torch lights.
That's not somethingthat happens in a
certain environment.
It may not happen in America,but it has happened to people
who have to face power outages.
So the environment,that is another big one.
(08:32):
People, and I would love tosee more, obviously research.
Yeah.
In that area, becauseenvironment plays a really big
issue that I would say thatpeople tend not to mention.
How many factorshave we done now?
David Rice (08:46):
You mentioned the power outages.
Yeah.
And I think, I'm fromFlorida originally.
Yeah.
And you have like hurricanesand it'll knock the power
out for three weeks.
Oh wow.
Exactly.
Have, after a few days, whenyou get the stuff cleaned up,
you wanna start your life back.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (08:58):
Yes.
David Rice (08:59):
But now it's you talking about two and
a half weeks before you'regonna have electricity.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (09:02):
Exactly.
David Rice (09:02):
Before you gotta run off a generator.
Exactly.
And exactly.
There's only certainthings that you can run.
And if you're choosing between.
Your laptop in the fridge.
Yeah, exactly.
And so there's this real tensionthat it creates inside you.
The stress levels are so high.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (09:16):
Yeah.
So another one I wouldmention are personal factors.
And this is one thatwe need to look at.
And when personal factors, likeyour own individual context
from your level of digitalcompetence, like how good
are you working digitally?
Another one is yourpersonal drive.
Like one of the CEOs Iinterviewed told me, he said
(09:38):
something that stuck with me.
He said, some peopleare great, but they're
not great on their own.
Yeah.
Something came out fromthe research discipline,
self-discipline.
So people's ability to be selfdiscipline really affects them
when they're working remotely.
So if you are someone whostruggles with and discipline.
Working remotely canbe quite a struggle.
(09:59):
Yeah.
So that one came up and thegood thing was like, I saw
it in other research, right?
And it was good to see itplay again because some people
said, yes, this is an issue.
This affects my.
My engagement at work, andI would say the last or not
least, was obviously technology.
Technology binds remote work.
Without technology,you cannot connect.
You need collaborative tools.
(10:20):
The better tools you have tocollaborate, the better you
would help communication,which helps connection.
And then you know, withtechnology, like I said,
there is also a relationshipbecause the environment
affects technology.
With power, internetand things like that.
And then the tools,hardware, software.
So those were the key drivers.
(10:42):
And just like I said, I thinkthe surprising ones were
fun When you manage people.
The thing is like whenyou're young, of course you
understand fun, but somehowthere seems to be some kind
of a media when people get,and management, you're like
let's get the work done.
What are thesepeople talking about?
David Rice (10:58):
Get it done and go home.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (10:59):
Yeah.
But you know what?
I saw how important it was forpeople to actually enjoy work.
Like people like to,they are more engaged in
things that they enjoy.
Or has meaning to them impactthat, that type of thing.
So yes, that was something thatI would say, be more intentional
(11:19):
about in a remote setting.
Be more intentional.
It won't happen by accident,so it has to be designed.
Connection Has to be designed.
Yeah.
Not by accidents.
David Rice (11:31):
Some leaders get sucked into kind of thinking
that engagement is reallyjust it's about communication
frequency in particular.
But in your research,what have you found
engagement truly feels like?
Yeah.
For people and for promoteemployees in particular.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (11:45):
Yeah.
What I would say is thatfrequency, the quality
is better than quantity.
What I did find was that.
People felt it wasimportant to be engaged.
They felt it was important, sono one said no communication.
I think the key thing was thequality of the communication.
(12:07):
You might be communicatingwith me frequently, but it's
like you're micromanaging mebecause you're always checking.
So that's a different kindof communication, like
hey, what's the status?
Where are you now?
But then like I had a meetingjust last week and I have one
of the project managers, greatguy, and we hadn't met for a
while 'cause it's a remote team.
(12:28):
That particular project team.
And he just went into theagenda and I'm like hey.
We've not spoken fora while, all of us.
And I said no.
Before we start, can wejust check in on everybody?
And I was asking, so I askedeverybody one by one, and what
has your high for the year beenand what has your low been like?
Just random.
I said, I'll stop first.
(12:48):
And I started like that.
So it was supposed tobe a one hour meeting?
Yes.
We went past the agenda.
We ended up spending twohours, but guess what?
That 30 minutes spentchecking in with everyone.
I found out so muchthings that I would never,
yeah, and guess what?
The meeting people'sdiscretionary effort was higher.
(13:09):
They voluntarilycontributed much more.
And then after the meetingI got like text messages,
people saying, Hey, thank you.
Like that, like even I wasdreading the meeting like
but the quality of themeeting was so much better.
Yeah.
So those are things likeconnecting with people on a
personal level and it helpsyou with context because
(13:30):
I found out things that.
I would never have found out.
And it allowed me, the humanelements, like people need
that and some people have,they just need someone
to share things with.
We don't even realizethat we want to share.
Like people were not expectingto share, but they shared so
much because I guess some oftheir struggles, they hadn't
voiced it out to anyone yet.
(13:51):
So it was like anunexpected, I don't know,
maybe therapy session.
I didn't, we didn't plan for it,but it was a product meeting.
And I see from theresponses after.
I don't usually get textmessages after from my team
members saying, Hey, thank you.
And like I could seethat it was worth it.
Yeah.
David Rice (14:11):
You talk about the importance of conducting
an engagement audit.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (14:14):
Yes.
David Rice (14:15):
And for HR and people ops leaders, what are the
essential early warning signs ofdisengagement that they should
be looking for in a remote team?
Dr. Ador (14:23):
Yeah, a disconnection.
Yeah.
It's so easy to be like.
Coming back again to theconversation when people say
work is work just when peoplehaven't spoken for a while,
you don't even know whathas happened and transpired
and when, spoke a meaningfulconversation it's not about
the status reports Hey,where are we on this project?
(14:43):
It's about all the unspokenactivities and sometimes
people don't ask questionsbecause you feel like when
you hear the answers, youmight have to solve it.
You're like, I'mnot gonna ask that.
Yeah, exactly.
So people justlike, how you doing?
Fine.
And that's why people respondthat way because people
don't wanna get involved.
But the truth is that ifmeaningful conversations
are not having, thatis a red flag, right?
(15:05):
Because of the lowest levelof knowledge they're planning
without the conversations.
They're just saying,you know what?
I can't see any senseof progress here.
It doesn't look like there'sany plans for me here.
And because they don'tknow, they're not gonna
ask you to find out.
They're just gonna make theirplans, plan their exits, plan.
Yeah.
Something for themselves.
So I would say if you're notcommunicating on a deeper level.
(15:27):
Then it's a red flag.
Don't think that becauseyou're not communicating
everything is fine.
No if you don't knowanything on a deeper level,
that's a red flag becauseit will just shock you.
One day it will comeout and you'll be like,
oh, I didn't know.
And that's how it goes.
David Rice (15:40):
Yeah.
One thing leaders strugglewith is sustaining
engagement over time, right?
Yes.
Yes.
And based on your framework.
Yeah.
I guess I'm, what strategieskind of separate organizations
that get short termengagement bumps Yeah.
From their efforts.
Yeah.
Versus those that havemore lasting change.
Dr. Adora Ikw (15:57):
Yeah, I think so.
It might just seem likewe're, what's the word now?
Like we're floggingthe same issue.
There's transformationalchange and there's like
transactional, right?
And transactional can be thingslike, of course you might get
high engagement because maybethere's a financial reward or
(16:17):
something like that, right?
But the truth is thatreal engagement comes
from lasting connections.
It comes from lastingrelationships.
It comes from open communicationand shared experiences, right?
So if you don'tintentionally create.
The forum for open, honest,human conversations.
You are never reallygoing to have engagement.
(16:39):
That is true.
And then, also, when we talkabout engagement, we talk
about authentic people bringingtheir whole selves to work.
Like people needto feel connected.
And what does connection mean?
It's about feeling.
It's an experience.
People go to experiencethat they're seen,
that they're heard.
(16:59):
Okay.
And that they're valued.
So when people don't havethat experience, then
they feel disconnected.
David Rice (17:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (17:05):
So how do you make people feel seen?
How are you doing?
Like, how was your day?
How has your year been?
And really wantingto know the answers.
David Rice (17:15):
Yeah.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (17:15):
And then people's voice needs
to matter in those meetings.
Someone is not speakingup rather than saying,
okay, that's a good thing.
Bring them intothe conversation.
And then being valued.
Are you recognizing them?
Are you praising them for theprogress that they've made?
So being seen, being heard, andbeing valued, those three things
are very key for connection.
(17:37):
And I would say that leaders,the more you practice that
and practice makes perfect.
And that helps us.
David Rice (17:44):
There's some discussion, I think because
it was, somebody broughtit up in your session
even about, okay, culturaldifferences in remote work.
Of course.
Did you wannauncover any insights?
That would be particularlyvaluable, for global
organizations managing remoteteams that are across different
regions and countries.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (17:59):
Yeah, I don't understand the context.
Okay.
And just like you said, whenyou are working globally,
there's some problemsthat people encounter in
a global environment thatyou could never know.
I remember a situationwhere even like I had
an employee leave andhe returned the laptop.
(18:19):
And I was, at that time, I wasreally cross at the state of the
laptop and I made a statementand I was like, this person must
have been using it on the floor.
Like it was so scratch.
It was so rough.
And then it did occur to methat, that was the context.
I couldn't Why?
(18:39):
Why is you, do you know wherethis person is actually working?
Do they actuallyhave a space to work?
Maybe they're sharinga room, maybe she's
literally on the floor.
Sometimes we takeit for granted.
Everyone doesn't havea dedicated desk,
a dedicated office.
David Rice (18:55):
Yeah.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (18:56):
So understand the nuances.
I know that, likeeverybody's circumstance
is different, right?
Especially younger people.
We talk a lot about gen Z,this Gen Z, that I'm like,
I don't wanna hear anyconversation about this.
Their context is different.
They're not in the same,they don't have the same
issues that you may have.
They don't own their own homes.
(19:17):
They don't own their own spaces,and they're young who wasn't
clueless or, when I was young,I was disengaged at work.
I don't know why we pretend likewe were really like responsible.
I wasn't responsible.
I didn't consider myselfresponsible, and I
admit it freely now.
But I think, we need tomentor, we need to help people,
we need to guide people.
(19:38):
But don't act like youwere all like responsible
when you were younger.
David Rice (19:43):
You just had it all together.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (19:44):
Nah.
You didn't have to.
We all passed aroundat work and Yeah.
So those kind ofthings, context matters.
Yeah.
David Rice (19:53):
If a company could do only one thing
starting tomorrow Yes.
To immediately startimproving remote engagement
based on your research.
Yes.
What would you tell'em to do first?
Dr. Adora (20:02):
I would say connect.
I would say connect bydesign, not by accident.
Ah, that's what I would say.
David Rice (20:09):
That's a good answer.
Hey before we go, there'salways two things I do
on every podcast episode.
Okay.
First thing is I wanna giveyou a chance to, tell people
about where they can connectwith you and find out more
about what you're doing.
Dr. Adora Ikwuem (20:19):
Oh, fantastic.
The best place to connectwith me is LinkedIn.
So you can search forme, Adora Ikwuemesi, and
you find your LinkedIn.
That's the best place.
David Rice (20:27):
So the second thing that we've to
finish every episode.
Yes.
I have a little tradition.
You get to ask me a question.
So go ahead and askme anything you want.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (20:34):
I see.
What keeps you engaged at work?
David Rice (20:39):
It's a lot of things.
It's, but it All right.
So I'm a naturallyfairly driven person.
I would say I, I have a lotof pride in my work and I
wanna be, I'm very drivenby the idea that maybe I can
create something new or justsomething that will like cheer
people off or be useful or eveninspire one of my colleagues.
But if I'm really honest, yeah.
It's a lot of,how do I put this?
(21:01):
It's a lot of childhoodpsychological trauma
about financialinsecurity that drives me of.
Not having, not being ableto provide for my family or
myself, that is my childhoodwe didn't have a lot.
Yeah.
And and there was someinsecurity there on finances.
It was a big issue and likemy parents' relationship.
(21:23):
So what of the things thatI saw shaped my perception
and, I'm being very honest,open here, and vulnerable.
Sure.
It's, that is a, I haveto look at that and say
to myself you can go easy.
You can stop getting out of likeflight or fight or panic mode.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You don't have tokill to survive.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
You just, you can justbe you and it's okay.
(21:44):
But it's hard.
It's hard to turn that offbecause that's a difficult,
that's a thing that'salways in the back of.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (21:49):
It's always there and our childhood shapes
us whether we admit it or not.
That is it.
Fear or love the twosides of the same.
The same coin.
Yes.
Yes.
That was a big question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
David Rice (22:05):
Thank you for giving me some of your time
today to tell us a littlebit more about your work.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (22:08):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
It's a pleasure.
Thank you, David.
When people don't say anything, trust
(00:01):
me, they've made assumptions.
And assumptions are thelowest level of knowledge.
They're planning, withoutthe conversations.
They're just saying,you know what?
I can't see any senseof progress here.
It doesn't look like there'sany plans for me here.
And because they don'tknow, they're not gonna
ask you to find out.
They're just gonna make theirplans, plan their exits, plan
(00:22):
something for themselves.
So I would say if you're notcommunicating on a deeper
level, then it's a red flag.
David Rice (00:31):
Welcome to the People Managing People podcast.
We're on a mission to builda better world of work and to
help you create happy, healthy,and productive workplaces.
I'm your host, David Rice.
My guest today isAdora Ikwuemesi.
As you could maybe tell from theaudio quality in that excerpt
at the start, this episode wasrecorded a little differently.
Adora and I met at a conferenceback at the beginning of
(00:52):
May called Running Remote.
It's a two day showcaseof all things remote work
from best practices to newstudies and new technology.
Adora was speaking at theconference, presenting some
research she'd done aboutremote engagement, looking
specifically at a groupof employees in Nigeria.
I wanted to sit down for a deepdive with her on the topic.
So between sessions andnetworking hours, we found a
(01:14):
shady spot out of the Texasheat and had the following chat.
Forgive the birds and thebackground noise, but hey,
such is the challenge ofrecording live and in person.
So without further ado,here's my chat with Adora.
Thought you conducted aqualitative study of 24
remote workers in Nigeria, andI'm curious, what initially
(01:35):
inspired you to deep dive intoremote engagement research
and what surprised you themost about what you found?
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (01:41):
I'd say I was an employee a long time ago.
I've been running my ownbusiness for 15 years,
but there was a time I wasdisengaged myself, and I've
always been curious, especiallywhen I became a manager.
I was of work.
I was curious.
I've experienced disengagementmyself and I was curious about
what made people engaged at workand then the pandemic hit and we
(02:04):
all had to work remotely and I.
We've been pursuing the subjectof engagement without much, and
now we have to work remotely.
So I thought, you know what?
It would be good.
I was just embarking ona doctorate research and
I knew I wanted to studyengagement, but then because
(02:24):
we were working remotely,I thought it would be very
interesting to study engagementin remote work because it
would be very relevant and.
Even though at the time itwasn't clear if we were going
to continue working remotely orgo back to the office, I knew
that this would be game changingif I could gather some insights
(02:45):
and help people who are workingremotely understand engagement
in remote work, et cetera.
David Rice (02:51):
Now, the framework that you created, it
identifies seven key driversof remote work engagement.
Can you take us throughthat a little bit?
And I'm curious, whichdriver do organizations most
consistently like overlookor, and why is it so critical?
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (03:05):
Okay.
The thing is likethe good things.
I knew that by studyingengagement, it's not
anything that we'venot heard about, right?
So these seven drivers,they're probably not areas
that we have not, we'renot familiar with, right?
Like things like leadership,things like work, the
way work is designed orthe environment, however.
(03:27):
Remote work is adifferent context.
Okay.
When we work in the office, it'sa different work environment.
Remote work is characterizedby three main characteristics.
One loan working, youare working alone.
Two, there's a reliance ontechnology, like you need
technology to be connected.
And thirdly, but nowhereleast is the fact that,
(03:52):
it involves autonomy and.
Of people actually work at home.
So looking at those factors,it's a different context because
when we're in the office is astandardized environment, right?
But when, if 80% of peopleare working from their home,
it means that your officeis different from my office,
(04:15):
it's different from heroffice, it's different from
Tom's office, Sarah's office.
So we don't havea standard office.
I may have a dedicated space.
With a desk, a fancy chair,and you on the other hand,
may be working with in thesame room with your sister,
or you might be sharingor sitting on the floor.
(04:35):
Exactly.
Or if you are like someof the remote workers
that you know I work with,you might share a room.
You might live in avery noisy environment.
Yeah.
You may not have a nice deskor you might just be using
the table in the kitchen.
Yeah.
And then of course you mightbe in a city that has power
(04:56):
outages, like in Africa whereit's prone or the internet
connection may not be great.
So that in itself changes thecontext, the environmental
context, and that wasvery key for the study.
So when we talk about thefactors, we talk about
seven factors, right?
Some of them we already know.
In fact, all of them wealready know, and I'll
(05:16):
just run through them.
Lifestyle benefits,it's a factor.
What do I mean by that?
People love working remotely.
The flexibility is a benefit.
And if you take it away frompeople will not be happy.
So that's an obvious one.
'cause when you look atthe debates online, that
people are like I don'twanna return to the office.
If they make me returnthe office, I'm quitting.
(05:37):
So I think that'san obvious one.
Leadership and management.
Hey, come on, good.
Leadership is essential.
If your leadership cares, ifyou feel like, you have good
HR management practices, goodpolicies, those are obvious,
those enhance engagementbecause some companies started
working remotely by accident.
(05:58):
So they didn't have policies.
Some leaders, some of thereasons why you're getting
the return to office mandatesbecause the leadership
doesn't trust the employees.
They think they're not working.
So things like that.
So leadership and managementis another driver.
Another one is relationshipsand communication.
That's very key because oneof the things that gets cuts
(06:19):
off when you start workingremotely is the connection,
the human connection.
Even though people tend tosay, nah, work is work, but
working remotely, disconnects,and when you're in the office,
connection happens by accident.
It happens all the time.
Ah, you just walk inby past each other.
Hey, hi.
You catch up whenyou working remotely.
(06:42):
To be conscious, you have tobe very intentional about it.
So relationships andcommunication, that
was, one of the drivers.
Another driver, a verykey one was work design.
The way work is set up,whether it's meaningful,
whether it's purposeful,and whether it's fun.
You talked about surprising.
One of the mostsurprising was fun.
(07:03):
I couldn't believehow frequently people
mentioned fun work.
I was like.
Isn't work, just work.
But people having fun at workwith other people was very key.
So fun work, I would say forme, was the most surprising.
I couldn't believe howmany times people mentioned
another key factor, whichis, I would say obvious
(07:24):
now is the environment.
I remember I already mentionedthat remote work is a
different work environmentanyway, so environmental
factors, and when we talkabout environmental factors,
I. Immediate environment,which is your workspace.
So that's your, theergonomics, your chair, but
also things like heat noise.
(07:47):
Which people don'treally consider.
Yeah.
And even the environment, thenational context, the country,
because in the Nigerian context,power outages were an issue.
The infrastructure.
And how does thisaffect engagement?
I want to work.
They've just caughtoff to pacify.
So no matter how motivatedand energized I am, I mean
(08:10):
someone talk to me abouthaving to join a session
with a torch lights, right?
Yeah.
Imagine having to do a zoomsession with a torch lights.
That's not somethingthat happens in a
certain environment.
It may not happen in America,but it has happened to people
who have to face power outages.
So the environment,that is another big one.
(08:32):
People, and I would love tosee more, obviously research.
Yeah.
In that area, becauseenvironment plays a really big
issue that I would say thatpeople tend not to mention.
How many factorshave we done now?
David Rice (08:46):
You mentioned the power outages.
Yeah.
And I think, I'm fromFlorida originally.
Yeah.
And you have like hurricanesand it'll knock the power
out for three weeks.
Oh wow.
Exactly.
Have, after a few days, whenyou get the stuff cleaned up,
you wanna start your life back.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (08:58):
Yes.
David Rice (08:59):
But now it's you talking about two and
a half weeks before you'regonna have electricity.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (09:02):
Exactly.
David Rice (09:02):
Before you gotta run off a generator.
Exactly.
And exactly.
There's only certainthings that you can run.
And if you're choosing between.
Your laptop in the fridge.
Yeah, exactly.
And so there's this real tensionthat it creates inside you.
The stress levels are so high.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (09:16):
Yeah.
So another one I wouldmention are personal factors.
And this is one thatwe need to look at.
And when personal factors, likeyour own individual context
from your level of digitalcompetence, like how good
are you working digitally?
Another one is yourpersonal drive.
Like one of the CEOs Iinterviewed told me, he said
(09:38):
something that stuck with me.
He said, some peopleare great, but they're
not great on their own.
Yeah.
Something came out fromthe research discipline,
self-discipline.
So people's ability to be selfdiscipline really affects them
when they're working remotely.
So if you are someone whostruggles with and discipline.
Working remotely canbe quite a struggle.
(09:59):
Yeah.
So that one came up and thegood thing was like, I saw
it in other research, right?
And it was good to see itplay again because some people
said, yes, this is an issue.
This affects my.
My engagement at work, andI would say the last or not
least, was obviously technology.
Technology binds remote work.
Without technology,you cannot connect.
You need collaborative tools.
(10:20):
The better tools you have tocollaborate, the better you
would help communication,which helps connection.
And then you know, withtechnology, like I said,
there is also a relationshipbecause the environment
affects technology.
With power, internetand things like that.
And then the tools,hardware, software.
So those were the key drivers.
(10:42):
And just like I said, I thinkthe surprising ones were
fun When you manage people.
The thing is like whenyou're young, of course you
understand fun, but somehowthere seems to be some kind
of a media when people get,and management, you're like
let's get the work done.
What are thesepeople talking about?
David Rice (10:58):
Get it done and go home.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (10:59):
Yeah.
But you know what?
I saw how important it was forpeople to actually enjoy work.
Like people like to,they are more engaged in
things that they enjoy.
Or has meaning to them impactthat, that type of thing.
So yes, that was something thatI would say, be more intentional
(11:19):
about in a remote setting.
Be more intentional.
It won't happen by accident,so it has to be designed.
Connection Has to be designed.
Yeah.
Not by accidents.
David Rice (11:31):
Some leaders get sucked into kind of thinking
that engagement is reallyjust it's about communication
frequency in particular.
But in your research,what have you found
engagement truly feels like?
Yeah.
For people and for promoteemployees in particular.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (11:45):
Yeah.
What I would say is thatfrequency, the quality
is better than quantity.
What I did find was that.
People felt it wasimportant to be engaged.
They felt it was important, sono one said no communication.
I think the key thing was thequality of the communication.
(12:07):
You might be communicatingwith me frequently, but it's
like you're micromanaging mebecause you're always checking.
So that's a different kindof communication, like
hey, what's the status?
Where are you now?
But then like I had a meetingjust last week and I have one
of the project managers, greatguy, and we hadn't met for a
while 'cause it's a remote team.
(12:28):
That particular project team.
And he just went into theagenda and I'm like hey.
We've not spoken fora while, all of us.
And I said no.
Before we start, can wejust check in on everybody?
And I was asking, so I askedeverybody one by one, and what
has your high for the year beenand what has your low been like?
Just random.
I said, I'll stop first.
(12:48):
And I started like that.
So it was supposed tobe a one hour meeting?
Yes.
We went past the agenda.
We ended up spending twohours, but guess what?
That 30 minutes spentchecking in with everyone.
I found out so muchthings that I would never,
yeah, and guess what?
The meeting people'sdiscretionary effort was higher.
(13:09):
They voluntarilycontributed much more.
And then after the meetingI got like text messages,
people saying, Hey, thank you.
Like that, like even I wasdreading the meeting like
but the quality of themeeting was so much better.
Yeah.
So those are things likeconnecting with people on a
personal level and it helpsyou with context because
(13:30):
I found out things that.
I would never have found out.
And it allowed me, the humanelements, like people need
that and some people have,they just need someone
to share things with.
We don't even realizethat we want to share.
Like people were not expectingto share, but they shared so
much because I guess some oftheir struggles, they hadn't
voiced it out to anyone yet.
(13:51):
So it was like anunexpected, I don't know,
maybe therapy session.
I didn't, we didn't plan for it,but it was a product meeting.
And I see from theresponses after.
I don't usually get textmessages after from my team
members saying, Hey, thank you.
And like I could seethat it was worth it.
Yeah.
David Rice (14:11):
You talk about the importance of conducting
an engagement audit.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (14:14):
Yes.
David Rice (14:15):
And for HR and people ops leaders, what are the
essential early warning signs ofdisengagement that they should
be looking for in a remote team?
Dr. Ador (14:23):
Yeah, a disconnection.
Yeah.
It's so easy to be like.
Coming back again to theconversation when people say
work is work just when peoplehaven't spoken for a while,
you don't even know whathas happened and transpired
and when, spoke a meaningfulconversation it's not about
the status reports Hey,where are we on this project?
(14:43):
It's about all the unspokenactivities and sometimes
people don't ask questionsbecause you feel like when
you hear the answers, youmight have to solve it.
You're like, I'mnot gonna ask that.
Yeah, exactly.
So people justlike, how you doing?
Fine.
And that's why people respondthat way because people
don't wanna get involved.
But the truth is that ifmeaningful conversations
are not having, thatis a red flag, right?
(15:05):
Because of the lowest levelof knowledge they're planning
without the conversations.
They're just saying,you know what?
I can't see any senseof progress here.
It doesn't look like there'sany plans for me here.
And because they don'tknow, they're not gonna
ask you to find out.
They're just gonna make theirplans, plan their exits, plan.
Yeah.
Something for themselves.
So I would say if you're notcommunicating on a deeper level.
(15:27):
Then it's a red flag.
Don't think that becauseyou're not communicating
everything is fine.
No if you don't knowanything on a deeper level,
that's a red flag becauseit will just shock you.
One day it will comeout and you'll be like,
oh, I didn't know.
And that's how it goes.
David Rice (15:40):
Yeah.
One thing leaders strugglewith is sustaining
engagement over time, right?
Yes.
Yes.
And based on your framework.
Yeah.
I guess I'm, what strategieskind of separate organizations
that get short termengagement bumps Yeah.
From their efforts.
Yeah.
Versus those that havemore lasting change.
Dr. Adora Ikw (15:57):
Yeah, I think so.
It might just seem likewe're, what's the word now?
Like we're floggingthe same issue.
There's transformationalchange and there's like
transactional, right?
And transactional can be thingslike, of course you might get
high engagement because maybethere's a financial reward or
(16:17):
something like that, right?
But the truth is thatreal engagement comes
from lasting connections.
It comes from lastingrelationships.
It comes from open communicationand shared experiences, right?
So if you don'tintentionally create.
The forum for open, honest,human conversations.
You are never reallygoing to have engagement.
(16:39):
That is true.
And then, also, when we talkabout engagement, we talk
about authentic people bringingtheir whole selves to work.
Like people needto feel connected.
And what does connection mean?
It's about feeling.
It's an experience.
People go to experiencethat they're seen,
that they're heard.
(16:59):
Okay.
And that they're valued.
So when people don't havethat experience, then
they feel disconnected.
David Rice (17:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (17:05):
So how do you make people feel seen?
How are you doing?
Like, how was your day?
How has your year been?
And really wantingto know the answers.
David Rice (17:15):
Yeah.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (17:15):
And then people's voice needs
to matter in those meetings.
Someone is not speakingup rather than saying,
okay, that's a good thing.
Bring them intothe conversation.
And then being valued.
Are you recognizing them?
Are you praising them for theprogress that they've made?
So being seen, being heard, andbeing valued, those three things
are very key for connection.
(17:37):
And I would say that leaders,the more you practice that
and practice makes perfect.
And that helps us.
David Rice (17:44):
There's some discussion, I think because
it was, somebody broughtit up in your session
even about, okay, culturaldifferences in remote work.
Of course.
Did you wannauncover any insights?
That would be particularlyvaluable, for global
organizations managing remoteteams that are across different
regions and countries.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (17:59):
Yeah, I don't understand the context.
Okay.
And just like you said, whenyou are working globally,
there's some problemsthat people encounter in
a global environment thatyou could never know.
I remember a situationwhere even like I had
an employee leave andhe returned the laptop.
(18:19):
And I was, at that time, I wasreally cross at the state of the
laptop and I made a statementand I was like, this person must
have been using it on the floor.
Like it was so scratch.
It was so rough.
And then it did occur to methat, that was the context.
I couldn't Why?
(18:39):
Why is you, do you know wherethis person is actually working?
Do they actuallyhave a space to work?
Maybe they're sharinga room, maybe she's
literally on the floor.
Sometimes we takeit for granted.
Everyone doesn't havea dedicated desk,
a dedicated office.
David Rice (18:55):
Yeah.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (18:56):
So understand the nuances.
I know that, likeeverybody's circumstance
is different, right?
Especially younger people.
We talk a lot about gen Z,this Gen Z, that I'm like,
I don't wanna hear anyconversation about this.
Their context is different.
They're not in the same,they don't have the same
issues that you may have.
They don't own their own homes.
(19:17):
They don't own their own spaces,and they're young who wasn't
clueless or, when I was young,I was disengaged at work.
I don't know why we pretend likewe were really like responsible.
I wasn't responsible.
I didn't consider myselfresponsible, and I
admit it freely now.
But I think, we need tomentor, we need to help people,
we need to guide people.
(19:38):
But don't act like youwere all like responsible
when you were younger.
David Rice (19:43):
You just had it all together.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (19:44):
Nah.
You didn't have to.
We all passed aroundat work and Yeah.
So those kind ofthings, context matters.
Yeah.
David Rice (19:53):
If a company could do only one thing
starting tomorrow Yes.
To immediately startimproving remote engagement
based on your research.
Yes.
What would you tell'em to do first?
Dr. Adora (20:02):
I would say connect.
I would say connect bydesign, not by accident.
Ah, that's what I would say.
David Rice (20:09):
That's a good answer.
Hey before we go, there'salways two things I do
on every podcast episode.
Okay.
First thing is I wanna giveyou a chance to, tell people
about where they can connectwith you and find out more
about what you're doing.
Dr. Adora Ikwuem (20:19):
Oh, fantastic.
The best place to connectwith me is LinkedIn.
So you can search forme, Adora Ikwuemesi, and
you find your LinkedIn.
That's the best place.
David Rice (20:27):
So the second thing that we've to
finish every episode.
Yes.
I have a little tradition.
You get to ask me a question.
So go ahead and askme anything you want.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (20:34):
I see.
What keeps you engaged at work?
David Rice (20:39):
It's a lot of things.
It's, but it All right.
So I'm a naturallyfairly driven person.
I would say I, I have a lotof pride in my work and I
wanna be, I'm very drivenby the idea that maybe I can
create something new or justsomething that will like cheer
people off or be useful or eveninspire one of my colleagues.
But if I'm really honest, yeah.
It's a lot of,how do I put this?
(21:01):
It's a lot of childhoodpsychological trauma
about financialinsecurity that drives me of.
Not having, not being ableto provide for my family or
myself, that is my childhoodwe didn't have a lot.
Yeah.
And and there was someinsecurity there on finances.
It was a big issue and likemy parents' relationship.
(21:23):
So what of the things thatI saw shaped my perception
and, I'm being very honest,open here, and vulnerable.
Sure.
It's, that is a, I haveto look at that and say
to myself you can go easy.
You can stop getting out of likeflight or fight or panic mode.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You don't have tokill to survive.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
You just, you can justbe you and it's okay.
(21:44):
But it's hard.
It's hard to turn that offbecause that's a difficult,
that's a thing that'salways in the back of.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (21:49):
It's always there and our childhood shapes
us whether we admit it or not.
That is it.
Fear or love the twosides of the same.
The same coin.
Yes.
Yes.
That was a big question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
David Rice (22:05):
Thank you for giving me some of your time
today to tell us a littlebit more about your work.
Dr. Adora Ikwuemesi (22:08):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
It's a pleasure.
Thank you, David.
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