September 30, 2025 • 25 mins
Why is financial wellness such a universally agreed-upon priority yet so painfully hard to deliver in practice? In this episode, I sit down with Jason Lee—founder of DailyPay, Salt Labs, and now Chief of Chime Enterprise—to break down why employees don’t engage with financial programs, why saving feels like the world’s most boring habit, and what it takes to design benefits that people actually use.
Jason lays out why most employer programs are stuck in the 1980s, why rewards points sometimes function better than savings accounts, and why the best financial wellness programs should look less like coupon clubs and more like full-service hospitals—ER, diagnostics, and rehab floors included. We also explore how brand trust, design simplicity, and modern tech will shape the next generation of employee financial benefits.
Related Links:
- Join the People Managing People community forum
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Jason on LinkedIn
- Check out Chime Enterprise
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Rice (00:00):
What do you think the key is to employee
financial health and benefits?
Jason Lee (00:04):
So much of the problem or the challenge of
financial health really kind ofboils down to everyone wants the
same thing, but unfortunatelywhen it comes to financial
matters, there is no GLP-1.
There is no easy way.
David Rice (00:18):
What is a holistic end-to-end financial sort of
wellness journey look like?
Jason Lee (00:23):
Well, look, I think this word wellness
is a good analogy.
If you were to think about theclassic hospital in your town
or in your city, the groundfloor is the ER, the correct
or the appropriate sort offinancial wellness program
really needs to kind of addressthat full stack of needs.
David Rice (00:42):
How do you see the employer financial wellness
landscape evolving sort ofin the next couple of years?
Jason Lee (00:48):
The employer desire will still be there.
The change that you will see,however, is the products and the
technology will be much smarter.
David Rice (01:01):
Welcome back to the People Managing People podcast
— the show where we explore themessy human side of work, the
technology influencing it,and the bold ideas shaping the
future of people practices.
Today's episode is for everyleader who's ever wondered why
is it so hard to get employeesto care about financial wellness
when literally everybodyagrees that it's important?
(01:21):
My guest today is Jason Lee.
He's a bit of a legend in theearned wage access industry,
having founded DailyPay beforethat was acquired, and later
Salt Labs before that wasacquired by Chime, and he's now
the chief of Chime Enterprise.
He's a guy who thinks quite abit about why savings is the
most boring topic on earth,why employees don't engage
(01:43):
with financial programs, andwhat it actually takes to help
people save when they feellike they have nothing to save.
From Starbucks points asemergency funds to why the
best wellness programs arebuilt like hospitals with
ER, diagnostics, and rehabfloors, this one's packed
with some cool analogies, hardtruths, and insights on what
(02:04):
it means to design financialbenefits people actually use.
So without furtherado, let's get into it.
All right, so Jason, welcome!
Jason Lee (02:12):
Thanks so much for having me, David.
David Rice (02:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
You're in the NewYork City area now?
Jason Lee (02:18):
I am.
I happen to be actually withmy family on holiday here
for a couple of days, butI would never miss this and
the opportunity to spenda few minutes with you,
so thanks for having me.
David Rice (02:29):
Thank you for joining us from holiday and
to talk a little bit aboutsome employee financial
health and benefits andhave a good discussion.
So, you know, I wantedto start us something
like 70% of employees whodon't sit at desks, right?
They face unique financialhealth challenges.
And I'm curious, you know,what are some of the biggest
hurdles that they face, andwhat do you think the key is
(02:52):
to helping that demographicovercome those issues?
Jason Lee (02:55):
Well look, you are right that 70% of employees who
don't sit at desks, but frankly,I bet if you were to poll
those who even sit at desks,they're having a hard time too.
What I would say is so much ofthe problem or the challenge.
Financial health, in myopinion, it really kind of
boils down to execution.
(03:17):
And what I mean by thatis I think everyone
wants the same things.
Whether when you talk topeople who are in their seats
or not in their seats, youtalk to their employers, you
talk to their family members.
I mean, who among us doesnot want to become that
much more financiallyhealthy, have better habits.
It's a little bitlike weight loss.
I mean, who among us,whatever you know, want
(03:39):
this, but unfortunately,when it comes to financial
matters, there is no GLP one.
There is no easy way inorder to be able to do this.
So I think a lot of this comesdown to how do we offer and
how do we have a set of toolsor a set of strategies or an
education process that justmakes it easier, simpler, more
transparent, and just a lotmore effective to get folks
(04:02):
to start developing thosestronger financial habits.
David Rice (04:05):
Savings is one of the things that we talk
about all the time when wetalk about financial health.
Right, and it makes a lotof sense 'cause obviously
you need that cushion.
But you know, it's sortof a linchpin for having a
sense of financial health.
Right.
But would you say that aperson's ability to save is
based on, is it just income?
Is it behavior?
Is it both?
You know, it's kind of acombination thereof, I think.
(04:26):
But how do you look toadvise people differently
to develop sort of likethat holistic approach to
their financial wellness?
Jason Lee (04:33):
Some of this will sound like mom and apple
pie, but I love my motherand unfortunately I probably
eat way too much apple pie.
There's no secret here.
Savings happens to beone of the most boring.
That is a challenge.
One gene, I mean, whowakes up and says, today
I want to save more.
Of course not.
And so to answer your firstquestion about what are the
(04:53):
contingencies, what are thedependencies, I would actually
postulate, it has very littleto do with how much you make.
It has a lot more to dowith how much you spend.
You know, we all have friends.
We all hear those, you know,really unfortunate stories
about maybe someone who mighthave hit the lottery, but
now in five, you know, fiveyears they're destitute.
Or you know, God forbid aprofessional athlete who might
(05:17):
have a $225 million contractbut is now at Starbucks, you
know, and Anton Walker fromthe Boston Celtics, and these
are unfortunate stories.
They really do illustrate thiscore axiom, which is, it has
very little to do with how muchone makes it actually has to
do with your spending habits.
Savings is really just theopposite of not spending,
(05:39):
because think about trying tomotivate someone to take in the
low income segment, to take aportion of what they already
perceive to be too small.
I already think I'm underpaid.
I already think mypaycheck is too small.
How am I gonna subdividethat in a proactive way?
(05:59):
And so I think the actualmechanic or activity around
savings tends to be sochallenging for folks.
You kind of have to get'em, and you kind of have
to help people do it asthey're doing something else.
One of the most popular thingsand one of the most effective
things that I see helping peoplesave is rounding up or saving
maybe a little bit as you spend.
(06:21):
It's these types of thingswhich really enable someone
to start building and buildingup that savings balance.
Here's another thing that Iwould just observe, which is.
This category of savings, andthis is probably a little bit
abstract, not maybe for youor your listeners, but maybe
for the general population.
It's the more non fungibleyou could make it, the better.
(06:42):
What do I mean by that?
One of the greatest savingsvehicles, I think in this
country for high incomeearners is the 401k, but for
all income earners, believeit or not, are reward points.
Let me say that again.
Reward points.
David Rice (06:57):
You mean on like a credit card?
Jason Lee (06:58):
No, or like a Starbucks point.
I've spoken to countless peoplewho, you know, will buy a coffee
or buy a donut or something ofthat nature and they'll never
spend their Starbucks points.
Why?
When you ask them, they'llsay, I think of it like an
emergency savings vehicle.
If I lose my job, if I'm stuckat the airport, if I lost my
wallet, I know I have thisstore value that I can use,
(07:21):
and so people are walkingaround with 100, $300 worth of
Starbucks points that they viewas a bit of a savings vehicle
because it's not readily spent.
And so the more that you cankind of create non fungibility
with your actual assets, in myopinion, that's sort of your
first step or a real interestingway to get you to save more.
David Rice (07:45):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I do that with pet products.
Jason Lee (07:47):
It's like, yeah, certainly.
And I bet you look at it, Ibet you refresh and you check
out how many points do I have?
What can I purchase with it?
Then you don't actuallybuy anything with it.
David Rice (07:57):
Or if I, like for example, I never
buy treats for the dog.
My dogs, I just, I'm like,well, I'll just get that
with these savings, you know,because it's like, that's right.
Something I know they needor that we need to get, but I
don't like how much they cost.
So certainly, you know,participation rates in financial
wellness programs for a lot ofemployers, they're not as high
as the employer would like.
Something like, I think 97%of employers believe it.
(08:20):
It is their responsibility tohelp employees establish some
kind of financial wellness.
And I've seen stats thatsay like two thirds of
employees are craving help.
So I'm kind of curious here,where are we getting tripped up?
Where are we fallingout of alignment?
And this is not happening.
Jason Lee (08:36):
The way you position, this is absolutely accurate.
This is actually one of thevery, very rare instances where
there's a meeting of the mindsbetween labor and management,
between employers and employees.
Like there's violent agreement.
Everyone wants the same thing.
Employers want to help andemployees want the help.
But as you say, if that reallywere working well, then we would
(08:59):
have a country of a lot morefinancially healthy people.
So what's going wrong?
There must be some disconnectthat's occurring between
people's desire on both sides,by the way, to have this
happen and it not happening.
And so I think thequestion is a great one.
This will sound borderlineself-serving because I am
(09:21):
in the business of buildinggreat products to help this
happen, but I actually thinkit has to do a lot with that.
If you were to walk in to youraverage employer, large company,
or small, that has a financialhealth program, what you would
find is that some of theseprograms, or the vast majority
are antiquated, they amount toplease watch these set of videos
(09:44):
and please finish this quiz.
At the end of it, we'llgive you a coupon for
a personal pan pizza.
It is really that rudimentary.
That reminds me ofthe Scholastic Book
Club or something.
That's what I was gonna say.
Yes.
And so look, I had a lot ofpizza from that, but it's an
antiquated way of thinking aboutthings and in today's world.
(10:04):
Your average 28-year-old is notgonna sit down and go through
a 30 minute, a 45 minute videoor read something that's 10
pages long on how to becomea more effective borrower, or
how to budget or how to save.
So I think a lot of theseprograms are sort of
stuck in the 1980s and1990s way of doing things.
(10:25):
What they really need todo is become more modern.
How do we learn aboutthe best restaurant?
Or how do we see if,man, I'm thinking about
staying at this hotel.
I want to kind of get real.
Do you actually go to thehotel's website and look
at their curated photos?
And maybe some do, but whatmost people will do is they'll
(10:45):
get on Instagram or they'll goon TikTok and they'll look for
actual user generated content.
The real pictureof what's going on.
You see that educationprocess is happening natively
in the platform that we'realready familiar with.
Be it Instagram or be it TikTokor whatever that nativity, that
organic way of learning aboutsomething is much more natural,
(11:09):
and that's really, I think whatthe modern programs really need
to mimic as opposed to takingyou out of your context, having
you sit down, watch something.
To me, that's the equivalentof looking on a hotel's
website and seeing thepicture of their pool.
It's not inaccurate, butit's really not that helpful.
David Rice (11:27):
Yeah.
When we chatted beforethis, you likened kind
of the current offerings.
Another good analogy, youwere saying it's like only
knowing where the ER is.
What is a holisticend-to-end financial sort of
wellness journey look like?
Jason Lee (11:41):
Well, look, I think this word wellness or financial
health is a good analogy.
We think about healthpredominantly is
the physical body.
And if you were to thinkabout the classic hospital
in your town or in yourcity, well that architecture
is very intentional.
The ground floor is the er.
It's the emergent place.
(12:03):
It's where you go whenthere's an exigent issue.
You know, my armgot chopped off.
I've got like, myfoot just got mangled.
You know, God forbid Igot into a car accident,
whatever it might be.
That's somethingthat can't wait.
Frankly, a lot of programsout there are about that.
You know, I, by way of a littlebit of history, I actually
founded an entire industrythat was all about just in
(12:23):
time money, emergency money.
It's called the earnwage access industry.
I created that entireindustry in my basement.
I founded a $2 billion company,and that's all that did.
That's all we did.
We found ways to provide thisimportant but limited benefit,
which was letting people accesstheir pay on their own schedule.
(12:47):
But what happens then?
So someone's able to getout of the ER, now they've
got internal medicine issue.
You know, maybethere's something going
on in their blood.
It's not an emergent issue,but it's something that needs
to be addressed over time.
Or maybe it's some typeof muscle pain in my leg,
or maybe it's orthopedicsurgery that I might need.
(13:08):
God forbid you would go tothe ER for that, or let's
say that you wanted to bebetter at diet and exercise,
improve your cholesterol.
Do you really think you shouldbe sitting in the ER to do that?
No.
There are reasons whythere are different
floors at that hospital.
The correct or theappropriate sort of financial
(13:29):
wellness program reallyneeds to kind of address
that full stack of needs.
David Rice (13:34):
Lemme ask you this, if you're the CHRO
of a large org, you'vegot several locations or
employees all over the world.
How are you getting themessage out so that people
not only know about it, butalso sort of engage with the
educational materials aroundit or begin to actually engage
with it and use the benefit?
Jason Lee (13:52):
Look, this is one of the biggest challenges of large
companies, even small companies.
Lemme just say it's thechallenge of everything.
Nobody listens, nobodypays any attention.
David Rice (14:02):
You sound like a content professional.
Jason Lee (14:04):
No, really, everyone's on their own agenda
or a father or a parent.
And so nobody listens.
And you know, all kiddingaside, it is one of the
paramount issues and challengesthat HR leaders have.
Let me maybe step tothe side for one moment.
We're recording this podcasthere in the middle of 2025.
(14:24):
And so for those who might belistening in a later year or
whatnot, we're right now in anenvironment and in a climate of
economic uncertainty, frankly.
That's not me saying thatDeloitte this morning just put
out their annual CFO surveyand the perspective of CFOs
is that, hey, this is nota great time to take risk.
The environment's muchmore uncertain, the number
(14:46):
of responding CFOs whothink that has doubled
over the last quarter.
So this is all to say rightnow, HR leaders are having
problems and they're havingstruggles with getting
the right resources.
Budgets are going down, not up.
People are being asked to domore with less, and do you
really expect that they cando a multi-location, massive
(15:09):
rollout of a new benefitfrom an unknown provider
with a brand new offering?
There just aren't enoughresources to do that.
And so what I would tellyou is, number one, this has
always been the case whereHR has really struggled with
getting the word out andgetting there to be a trusted
brand or trusted provider.
(15:29):
Number two in particular,in the middle of 2025.
This issue is very acutebecause there aren't that
many resources anymore.
There's no investmentdollars to kind of go around.
So where does that take me?
How do we advise or how dowe help companies with this?
This will sound alittle bit pedantic, but
brand really matters.
(15:51):
Meaning you put a canof Coca-Cola on a table
or in the cafeteria, youdon't have to explain it.
You don't have to explain, Hey,we got a six pack of Coca-Cola.
Let me give you a tutorial onwhat to do and how to use that.
There's what I would call amonetization or a leveraging of
(16:11):
the brand, and if I were sittingin the CHRO's seat today,
I would only go and providebenefits through companies
that people have heard of.
I don't think this is theenvironment where you go with
a new startup or a new, Ijust don't think that's the
case because now you have toencounter issues around trust.
(16:31):
What does this thing do?
I've never heard of it.
And that requires a lotof HR time and commitment
to go do those things.
David Rice (16:39):
Yeah, that's a good point.
It's tempting sometimes toget pulled into, you know,
a new service or a shinynew thing, whatever it is.
But yeah, this may not bethe, trust is low, it's
as low as it's ever been.
Jason Lee (16:51):
And time, there's like no time.
People are resource constrainedand they're stretched.
And so again, if we were sittinghere five years ago, let's
get the new FANG thing going.
But there's a reason whybrand and brand awareness
and the accountants actuallysay it's an asset that
sits on your balance sheet.
They have a calculation for it.
It's the largest assetthat Coca-Cola has is
(17:14):
the value of that brand.
And so I think that's reallysomething that HR leaders
need to think very criticallyabout, which is how do we
leverage the investment thatsomeone else has already made?
In building their brand.
So we don't have to do it.
We don't have to explain it.
Just throw the six pack ofCoke at Coca-Cola on the
table and the employeeswill figure it out.
David Rice (17:36):
So now when we think about helping employees
understand their capital, right.
You know, I'm curious,how does you know your
programs help them manage orunderstand, sorry, things like
capital management, growth,expansion, things like that.
Jason Lee (17:52):
Look, I think you're asking a question
specifically about what we atChime are doing with employers.
We have three differentcategories of benefits
as it relates to employeefinancial health, and we
call them interesting names.
Typically, we work withfrontline workers, hourly
workers, but our benefits arecalled capital management.
(18:13):
Capital growth andcapital expansion.
Now, before I get into tellingyou what those are, don't those
sound like names that you wouldhear if you were sitting with a
meeting at Fidelity or maybe JPMorgan or someone like that and
not really the hourly workforceAnd the approach that we at
Chime take is, guess what?
That's the potential wesee in your employee.
(18:35):
We actually think theycan be that person.
So let's get them started now.
Capital management areall the things that we
do to help people managetheir day-to-day finances.
We offer them early wage access.
They get direct deposits one totwo days before their payday.
It's fee free overdraft.
These are all the things thatpeople who have problems or
(18:56):
struggles with making endsmeet between pay cycles.
They've got a whole raft of nofee tools that they can use.
That's sort of point number one.
Point number two,capital growth.
As we talked about before, themost boring, boring vertical
in financial health is savings,but we call it capital growth
(19:18):
because we are really committedto enabling those employees
to save hundreds upon hundredsof dollars on average through
very clever organic ways.
Not, hey, let's sit downand give you a seminar
on why it's good to save.
But more things like roundingup, hey, putting aside
a dollar here and there.
(19:39):
When we look at, for example,the average employer, when I
look at their employees whoare using Chime, oftentimes
I will see a savings balanceof like $200 or more, and
that is extraordinary whenyou look at it compared
to the national average ofeveryone in America who has a
savings rate of negative 2%.
David Rice (20:00):
In the negative.
Jason Lee (20:01):
It's negative 2%.
Capital expansion is our thirdset of benefits, which we
offer that enables people toimprove and build their credit
history, which ultimatelyimpacts their credit score.
People who use that product,by the way, it's remarkable.
They're able to increase.
What we see, rather is onaverage their credit score
is increased by somethinglike 30 points, and that's
(20:23):
pretty remarkable when youlook at the effect that
can have on the individual.
David Rice (20:28):
Interesting times lie ahead for the economy.
You know, when we look at wages,employment in general right
now, this feels very uncertain.
So I'm curious, how do you seethe employer financial wellness
landscape evolving sort ofin the next couple of years?
Jason Lee (20:42):
Look, I think desire won't change.
I mean, that study that youquoted we're already at 97%.
I've read that same study 10years ago, that number was 41%,
meaning 10 years ago, only 41%of companies believed that their
employees' financial healthwas even their responsibility.
(21:03):
That number hasincreased to 97%, so.
The evolution of what Isee in the future is number
one, the employer desirewill still be there because
we've already crossed thepoint of understanding that
investing in your employeesis always good for business,
always good for business.
I think the change that youwill see, however, is the
(21:24):
products and the technologywill be much smarter.
They'll be much easierlowering the barrier to entry.
I love telling this.
One quick anecdote.
I had a client tellme, what do you mean we
have a savings program?
We use a credit union.
I said, well, great.
Let's pull up thecredit union right now.
Let's pull up their website,save with us, open an
(21:44):
account and in small letters,minimum $20,000 to start.
I mean, who amongus even has that?
Yeah, and forgetthe hourly ones.
Who has that laying around?
So, but the point being,yes, like we check the box,
we have a savings program,but no one's using it.
I think that as there's morepressure and more desire
(22:06):
for employers to do thingsthat are really worthwhile
and that they can reallyget behind, you'll start
to see the products evolve.
You know, we atChime, for instance.
You could start savingnot with $20,000.
With 20 cents, we have nominimum, you know, so you
could start saving, you getoutsized interest, you get all
these great privileges with20 cents, and that's really
(22:28):
the benefit of technology.
It really reduces a lot ofthe friction, a lot of the
cost where we don't needyou to start with 20 grand.
You can start with 20 centsor 0 cents for that matter.
David Rice (22:39):
Well, Jason, it's been an
interesting conversation.
I know financial health is onthe mind of a lot of people.
Like we, yeah, I mean,obviously the data's there.
Before we go, I just wannagive you a chance to, you
know, plug anything you wannaplug, tell people where they
can find you, learn moreabout what you're doing.
Jason Lee (22:53):
Well look, I'm on LinkedIn and so you can
find me there, Jason Lee.
Believe it or not, there'sone or two others on
LinkedIn with my name.
But you can put in Jason LeeChime and you can find me.
So connect with me on LinkedIn.
I'm very activeand I will respond.
And if you're looking to learnmore, just go to chime.com
and you'll find us there.
David Rice (23:11):
Excellent.
The last thing that we doon every episode is we have
a little tradition here onthe podcast where you get
to ask me a question, so I'mgonna turn it over to you.
Ask me anything you want.
Jason Lee (23:20):
What's one thing that is true about yourself
that not a lot of peopleknow, but that you wish
more people knew about you?
David Rice (23:28):
I have a pretty adventurous spirit.
I think, you know, Ido this podcast I talk
about HR all the time.
I don't know if people thinkabout HR as being adventurous by
any stretch of the imagination,but I am a person that just does
love to get out, experience lifein all shades, in all forms.
Whatever I can do, youknow, it's very much like
I have a never endinglist of growing hobbies.
(23:51):
You know, like, it's likeI, I could take an interest
in anything and run withit for a bit, you know?
So I guess maybe that, youknow, I'm not as boring as my
LinkedIn might make it look.
Jason Lee (24:03):
That works.
So you want others toknow I'm not a boring guy.
Got it.
There we go.
Same answer.
David Rice (24:12):
Alright, well Jason, thanks for coming onto the show.
I really appreciate itand for giving us some
of your time today.
Jason Lee (24:16):
You bet.
Thanks so much, David.
David Rice (24:19):
All right, listeners, if you haven't done
so already, head on over topeoplemanagingpeople.com, get
signed up for the newsletter.
And until next time, startthat savings program even
if you gotta start small.
What do you think the key is to employee
financial health and benefits?
Jason Lee (00:04):
So much of the problem or the challenge of
financial health really kind ofboils down to everyone wants the
same thing, but unfortunatelywhen it comes to financial
matters, there is no GLP-1.
There is no easy way.
David Rice (00:18):
What is a holistic end-to-end financial sort of
wellness journey look like?
Jason Lee (00:23):
Well, look, I think this word wellness
is a good analogy.
If you were to think about theclassic hospital in your town
or in your city, the groundfloor is the ER, the correct
or the appropriate sort offinancial wellness program
really needs to kind of addressthat full stack of needs.
David Rice (00:42):
How do you see the employer financial wellness
landscape evolving sort ofin the next couple of years?
Jason Lee (00:48):
The employer desire will still be there.
The change that you will see,however, is the products and the
technology will be much smarter.
David Rice (01:01):
Welcome back to the People Managing People podcast
— the show where we explore themessy human side of work, the
technology influencing it,and the bold ideas shaping the
future of people practices.
Today's episode is for everyleader who's ever wondered why
is it so hard to get employeesto care about financial wellness
when literally everybodyagrees that it's important?
(01:21):
My guest today is Jason Lee.
He's a bit of a legend in theearned wage access industry,
having founded DailyPay beforethat was acquired, and later
Salt Labs before that wasacquired by Chime, and he's now
the chief of Chime Enterprise.
He's a guy who thinks quite abit about why savings is the
most boring topic on earth,why employees don't engage
(01:43):
with financial programs, andwhat it actually takes to help
people save when they feellike they have nothing to save.
From Starbucks points asemergency funds to why the
best wellness programs arebuilt like hospitals with
ER, diagnostics, and rehabfloors, this one's packed
with some cool analogies, hardtruths, and insights on what
(02:04):
it means to design financialbenefits people actually use.
So without furtherado, let's get into it.
All right, so Jason, welcome!
Jason Lee (02:12):
Thanks so much for having me, David.
David Rice (02:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
You're in the NewYork City area now?
Jason Lee (02:18):
I am.
I happen to be actually withmy family on holiday here
for a couple of days, butI would never miss this and
the opportunity to spenda few minutes with you,
so thanks for having me.
David Rice (02:29):
Thank you for joining us from holiday and
to talk a little bit aboutsome employee financial
health and benefits andhave a good discussion.
So, you know, I wantedto start us something
like 70% of employees whodon't sit at desks, right?
They face unique financialhealth challenges.
And I'm curious, you know,what are some of the biggest
hurdles that they face, andwhat do you think the key is
(02:52):
to helping that demographicovercome those issues?
Jason Lee (02:55):
Well look, you are right that 70% of employees who
don't sit at desks, but frankly,I bet if you were to poll
those who even sit at desks,they're having a hard time too.
What I would say is so much ofthe problem or the challenge.
Financial health, in myopinion, it really kind of
boils down to execution.
(03:17):
And what I mean by thatis I think everyone
wants the same things.
Whether when you talk topeople who are in their seats
or not in their seats, youtalk to their employers, you
talk to their family members.
I mean, who among us doesnot want to become that
much more financiallyhealthy, have better habits.
It's a little bitlike weight loss.
I mean, who among us,whatever you know, want
(03:39):
this, but unfortunately,when it comes to financial
matters, there is no GLP one.
There is no easy way inorder to be able to do this.
So I think a lot of this comesdown to how do we offer and
how do we have a set of toolsor a set of strategies or an
education process that justmakes it easier, simpler, more
transparent, and just a lotmore effective to get folks
(04:02):
to start developing thosestronger financial habits.
David Rice (04:05):
Savings is one of the things that we talk
about all the time when wetalk about financial health.
Right, and it makes a lotof sense 'cause obviously
you need that cushion.
But you know, it's sortof a linchpin for having a
sense of financial health.
Right.
But would you say that aperson's ability to save is
based on, is it just income?
Is it behavior?
Is it both?
You know, it's kind of acombination thereof, I think.
(04:26):
But how do you look toadvise people differently
to develop sort of likethat holistic approach to
their financial wellness?
Jason Lee (04:33):
Some of this will sound like mom and apple
pie, but I love my motherand unfortunately I probably
eat way too much apple pie.
There's no secret here.
Savings happens to beone of the most boring.
That is a challenge.
One gene, I mean, whowakes up and says, today
I want to save more.
Of course not.
And so to answer your firstquestion about what are the
(04:53):
contingencies, what are thedependencies, I would actually
postulate, it has very littleto do with how much you make.
It has a lot more to dowith how much you spend.
You know, we all have friends.
We all hear those, you know,really unfortunate stories
about maybe someone who mighthave hit the lottery, but
now in five, you know, fiveyears they're destitute.
Or you know, God forbid aprofessional athlete who might
(05:17):
have a $225 million contractbut is now at Starbucks, you
know, and Anton Walker fromthe Boston Celtics, and these
are unfortunate stories.
They really do illustrate thiscore axiom, which is, it has
very little to do with how muchone makes it actually has to
do with your spending habits.
Savings is really just theopposite of not spending,
(05:39):
because think about trying tomotivate someone to take in the
low income segment, to take aportion of what they already
perceive to be too small.
I already think I'm underpaid.
I already think mypaycheck is too small.
How am I gonna subdividethat in a proactive way?
(05:59):
And so I think the actualmechanic or activity around
savings tends to be sochallenging for folks.
You kind of have to get'em, and you kind of have
to help people do it asthey're doing something else.
One of the most popular thingsand one of the most effective
things that I see helping peoplesave is rounding up or saving
maybe a little bit as you spend.
(06:21):
It's these types of thingswhich really enable someone
to start building and buildingup that savings balance.
Here's another thing that Iwould just observe, which is.
This category of savings, andthis is probably a little bit
abstract, not maybe for youor your listeners, but maybe
for the general population.
It's the more non fungibleyou could make it, the better.
(06:42):
What do I mean by that?
One of the greatest savingsvehicles, I think in this
country for high incomeearners is the 401k, but for
all income earners, believeit or not, are reward points.
Let me say that again.
Reward points.
David Rice (06:57):
You mean on like a credit card?
Jason Lee (06:58):
No, or like a Starbucks point.
I've spoken to countless peoplewho, you know, will buy a coffee
or buy a donut or something ofthat nature and they'll never
spend their Starbucks points.
Why?
When you ask them, they'llsay, I think of it like an
emergency savings vehicle.
If I lose my job, if I'm stuckat the airport, if I lost my
wallet, I know I have thisstore value that I can use,
(07:21):
and so people are walkingaround with 100, $300 worth of
Starbucks points that they viewas a bit of a savings vehicle
because it's not readily spent.
And so the more that you cankind of create non fungibility
with your actual assets, in myopinion, that's sort of your
first step or a real interestingway to get you to save more.
David Rice (07:45):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I do that with pet products.
Jason Lee (07:47):
It's like, yeah, certainly.
And I bet you look at it, Ibet you refresh and you check
out how many points do I have?
What can I purchase with it?
Then you don't actuallybuy anything with it.
David Rice (07:57):
Or if I, like for example, I never
buy treats for the dog.
My dogs, I just, I'm like,well, I'll just get that
with these savings, you know,because it's like, that's right.
Something I know they needor that we need to get, but I
don't like how much they cost.
So certainly, you know,participation rates in financial
wellness programs for a lot ofemployers, they're not as high
as the employer would like.
Something like, I think 97%of employers believe it.
(08:20):
It is their responsibility tohelp employees establish some
kind of financial wellness.
And I've seen stats thatsay like two thirds of
employees are craving help.
So I'm kind of curious here,where are we getting tripped up?
Where are we fallingout of alignment?
And this is not happening.
Jason Lee (08:36):
The way you position, this is absolutely accurate.
This is actually one of thevery, very rare instances where
there's a meeting of the mindsbetween labor and management,
between employers and employees.
Like there's violent agreement.
Everyone wants the same thing.
Employers want to help andemployees want the help.
But as you say, if that reallywere working well, then we would
(08:59):
have a country of a lot morefinancially healthy people.
So what's going wrong?
There must be some disconnectthat's occurring between
people's desire on both sides,by the way, to have this
happen and it not happening.
And so I think thequestion is a great one.
This will sound borderlineself-serving because I am
(09:21):
in the business of buildinggreat products to help this
happen, but I actually thinkit has to do a lot with that.
If you were to walk in to youraverage employer, large company,
or small, that has a financialhealth program, what you would
find is that some of theseprograms, or the vast majority
are antiquated, they amount toplease watch these set of videos
(09:44):
and please finish this quiz.
At the end of it, we'llgive you a coupon for
a personal pan pizza.
It is really that rudimentary.
That reminds me ofthe Scholastic Book
Club or something.
That's what I was gonna say.
Yes.
And so look, I had a lot ofpizza from that, but it's an
antiquated way of thinking aboutthings and in today's world.
(10:04):
Your average 28-year-old is notgonna sit down and go through
a 30 minute, a 45 minute videoor read something that's 10
pages long on how to becomea more effective borrower, or
how to budget or how to save.
So I think a lot of theseprograms are sort of
stuck in the 1980s and1990s way of doing things.
(10:25):
What they really need todo is become more modern.
How do we learn aboutthe best restaurant?
Or how do we see if,man, I'm thinking about
staying at this hotel.
I want to kind of get real.
Do you actually go to thehotel's website and look
at their curated photos?
And maybe some do, but whatmost people will do is they'll
(10:45):
get on Instagram or they'll goon TikTok and they'll look for
actual user generated content.
The real pictureof what's going on.
You see that educationprocess is happening natively
in the platform that we'realready familiar with.
Be it Instagram or be it TikTokor whatever that nativity, that
organic way of learning aboutsomething is much more natural,
(11:09):
and that's really, I think whatthe modern programs really need
to mimic as opposed to takingyou out of your context, having
you sit down, watch something.
To me, that's the equivalentof looking on a hotel's
website and seeing thepicture of their pool.
It's not inaccurate, butit's really not that helpful.
David Rice (11:27):
Yeah.
When we chatted beforethis, you likened kind
of the current offerings.
Another good analogy, youwere saying it's like only
knowing where the ER is.
What is a holisticend-to-end financial sort of
wellness journey look like?
Jason Lee (11:41):
Well, look, I think this word wellness or financial
health is a good analogy.
We think about healthpredominantly is
the physical body.
And if you were to thinkabout the classic hospital
in your town or in yourcity, well that architecture
is very intentional.
The ground floor is the er.
It's the emergent place.
(12:03):
It's where you go whenthere's an exigent issue.
You know, my armgot chopped off.
I've got like, myfoot just got mangled.
You know, God forbid Igot into a car accident,
whatever it might be.
That's somethingthat can't wait.
Frankly, a lot of programsout there are about that.
You know, I, by way of a littlebit of history, I actually
founded an entire industrythat was all about just in
(12:23):
time money, emergency money.
It's called the earnwage access industry.
I created that entireindustry in my basement.
I founded a $2 billion company,and that's all that did.
That's all we did.
We found ways to provide thisimportant but limited benefit,
which was letting people accesstheir pay on their own schedule.
(12:47):
But what happens then?
So someone's able to getout of the ER, now they've
got internal medicine issue.
You know, maybethere's something going
on in their blood.
It's not an emergent issue,but it's something that needs
to be addressed over time.
Or maybe it's some typeof muscle pain in my leg,
or maybe it's orthopedicsurgery that I might need.
(13:08):
God forbid you would go tothe ER for that, or let's
say that you wanted to bebetter at diet and exercise,
improve your cholesterol.
Do you really think you shouldbe sitting in the ER to do that?
No.
There are reasons whythere are different
floors at that hospital.
The correct or theappropriate sort of financial
(13:29):
wellness program reallyneeds to kind of address
that full stack of needs.
David Rice (13:34):
Lemme ask you this, if you're the CHRO
of a large org, you'vegot several locations or
employees all over the world.
How are you getting themessage out so that people
not only know about it, butalso sort of engage with the
educational materials aroundit or begin to actually engage
with it and use the benefit?
Jason Lee (13:52):
Look, this is one of the biggest challenges of large
companies, even small companies.
Lemme just say it's thechallenge of everything.
Nobody listens, nobodypays any attention.
David Rice (14:02):
You sound like a content professional.
Jason Lee (14:04):
No, really, everyone's on their own agenda
or a father or a parent.
And so nobody listens.
And you know, all kiddingaside, it is one of the
paramount issues and challengesthat HR leaders have.
Let me maybe step tothe side for one moment.
We're recording this podcasthere in the middle of 2025.
(14:24):
And so for those who might belistening in a later year or
whatnot, we're right now in anenvironment and in a climate of
economic uncertainty, frankly.
That's not me saying thatDeloitte this morning just put
out their annual CFO surveyand the perspective of CFOs
is that, hey, this is nota great time to take risk.
The environment's muchmore uncertain, the number
(14:46):
of responding CFOs whothink that has doubled
over the last quarter.
So this is all to say rightnow, HR leaders are having
problems and they're havingstruggles with getting
the right resources.
Budgets are going down, not up.
People are being asked to domore with less, and do you
really expect that they cando a multi-location, massive
(15:09):
rollout of a new benefitfrom an unknown provider
with a brand new offering?
There just aren't enoughresources to do that.
And so what I would tellyou is, number one, this has
always been the case whereHR has really struggled with
getting the word out andgetting there to be a trusted
brand or trusted provider.
(15:29):
Number two in particular,in the middle of 2025.
This issue is very acutebecause there aren't that
many resources anymore.
There's no investmentdollars to kind of go around.
So where does that take me?
How do we advise or how dowe help companies with this?
This will sound alittle bit pedantic, but
brand really matters.
(15:51):
Meaning you put a canof Coca-Cola on a table
or in the cafeteria, youdon't have to explain it.
You don't have to explain, Hey,we got a six pack of Coca-Cola.
Let me give you a tutorial onwhat to do and how to use that.
There's what I would call amonetization or a leveraging of
(16:11):
the brand, and if I were sittingin the CHRO's seat today,
I would only go and providebenefits through companies
that people have heard of.
I don't think this is theenvironment where you go with
a new startup or a new, Ijust don't think that's the
case because now you have toencounter issues around trust.
(16:31):
What does this thing do?
I've never heard of it.
And that requires a lotof HR time and commitment
to go do those things.
David Rice (16:39):
Yeah, that's a good point.
It's tempting sometimes toget pulled into, you know,
a new service or a shinynew thing, whatever it is.
But yeah, this may not bethe, trust is low, it's
as low as it's ever been.
Jason Lee (16:51):
And time, there's like no time.
People are resource constrainedand they're stretched.
And so again, if we were sittinghere five years ago, let's
get the new FANG thing going.
But there's a reason whybrand and brand awareness
and the accountants actuallysay it's an asset that
sits on your balance sheet.
They have a calculation for it.
It's the largest assetthat Coca-Cola has is
(17:14):
the value of that brand.
And so I think that's reallysomething that HR leaders
need to think very criticallyabout, which is how do we
leverage the investment thatsomeone else has already made?
In building their brand.
So we don't have to do it.
We don't have to explain it.
Just throw the six pack ofCoke at Coca-Cola on the
table and the employeeswill figure it out.
David Rice (17:36):
So now when we think about helping employees
understand their capital, right.
You know, I'm curious,how does you know your
programs help them manage orunderstand, sorry, things like
capital management, growth,expansion, things like that.
Jason Lee (17:52):
Look, I think you're asking a question
specifically about what we atChime are doing with employers.
We have three differentcategories of benefits
as it relates to employeefinancial health, and we
call them interesting names.
Typically, we work withfrontline workers, hourly
workers, but our benefits arecalled capital management.
(18:13):
Capital growth andcapital expansion.
Now, before I get into tellingyou what those are, don't those
sound like names that you wouldhear if you were sitting with a
meeting at Fidelity or maybe JPMorgan or someone like that and
not really the hourly workforceAnd the approach that we at
Chime take is, guess what?
That's the potential wesee in your employee.
(18:35):
We actually think theycan be that person.
So let's get them started now.
Capital management areall the things that we
do to help people managetheir day-to-day finances.
We offer them early wage access.
They get direct deposits one totwo days before their payday.
It's fee free overdraft.
These are all the things thatpeople who have problems or
(18:56):
struggles with making endsmeet between pay cycles.
They've got a whole raft of nofee tools that they can use.
That's sort of point number one.
Point number two,capital growth.
As we talked about before, themost boring, boring vertical
in financial health is savings,but we call it capital growth
(19:18):
because we are really committedto enabling those employees
to save hundreds upon hundredsof dollars on average through
very clever organic ways.
Not, hey, let's sit downand give you a seminar
on why it's good to save.
But more things like roundingup, hey, putting aside
a dollar here and there.
(19:39):
When we look at, for example,the average employer, when I
look at their employees whoare using Chime, oftentimes
I will see a savings balanceof like $200 or more, and
that is extraordinary whenyou look at it compared
to the national average ofeveryone in America who has a
savings rate of negative 2%.
David Rice (20:00):
In the negative.
Jason Lee (20:01):
It's negative 2%.
Capital expansion is our thirdset of benefits, which we
offer that enables people toimprove and build their credit
history, which ultimatelyimpacts their credit score.
People who use that product,by the way, it's remarkable.
They're able to increase.
What we see, rather is onaverage their credit score
is increased by somethinglike 30 points, and that's
(20:23):
pretty remarkable when youlook at the effect that
can have on the individual.
David Rice (20:28):
Interesting times lie ahead for the economy.
You know, when we look at wages,employment in general right
now, this feels very uncertain.
So I'm curious, how do you seethe employer financial wellness
landscape evolving sort ofin the next couple of years?
Jason Lee (20:42):
Look, I think desire won't change.
I mean, that study that youquoted we're already at 97%.
I've read that same study 10years ago, that number was 41%,
meaning 10 years ago, only 41%of companies believed that their
employees' financial healthwas even their responsibility.
(21:03):
That number hasincreased to 97%, so.
The evolution of what Isee in the future is number
one, the employer desirewill still be there because
we've already crossed thepoint of understanding that
investing in your employeesis always good for business,
always good for business.
I think the change that youwill see, however, is the
(21:24):
products and the technologywill be much smarter.
They'll be much easierlowering the barrier to entry.
I love telling this.
One quick anecdote.
I had a client tellme, what do you mean we
have a savings program?
We use a credit union.
I said, well, great.
Let's pull up thecredit union right now.
Let's pull up their website,save with us, open an
(21:44):
account and in small letters,minimum $20,000 to start.
I mean, who amongus even has that?
Yeah, and forgetthe hourly ones.
Who has that laying around?
So, but the point being,yes, like we check the box,
we have a savings program,but no one's using it.
I think that as there's morepressure and more desire
(22:06):
for employers to do thingsthat are really worthwhile
and that they can reallyget behind, you'll start
to see the products evolve.
You know, we atChime, for instance.
You could start savingnot with $20,000.
With 20 cents, we have nominimum, you know, so you
could start saving, you getoutsized interest, you get all
these great privileges with20 cents, and that's really
(22:28):
the benefit of technology.
It really reduces a lot ofthe friction, a lot of the
cost where we don't needyou to start with 20 grand.
You can start with 20 centsor 0 cents for that matter.
David Rice (22:39):
Well, Jason, it's been an
interesting conversation.
I know financial health is onthe mind of a lot of people.
Like we, yeah, I mean,obviously the data's there.
Before we go, I just wannagive you a chance to, you
know, plug anything you wannaplug, tell people where they
can find you, learn moreabout what you're doing.
Jason Lee (22:53):
Well look, I'm on LinkedIn and so you can
find me there, Jason Lee.
Believe it or not, there'sone or two others on
LinkedIn with my name.
But you can put in Jason LeeChime and you can find me.
So connect with me on LinkedIn.
I'm very activeand I will respond.
And if you're looking to learnmore, just go to chime.com
and you'll find us there.
David Rice (23:11):
Excellent.
The last thing that we doon every episode is we have
a little tradition here onthe podcast where you get
to ask me a question, so I'mgonna turn it over to you.
Ask me anything you want.
Jason Lee (23:20):
What's one thing that is true about yourself
that not a lot of peopleknow, but that you wish
more people knew about you?
David Rice (23:28):
I have a pretty adventurous spirit.
I think, you know, Ido this podcast I talk
about HR all the time.
I don't know if people thinkabout HR as being adventurous by
any stretch of the imagination,but I am a person that just does
love to get out, experience lifein all shades, in all forms.
Whatever I can do, youknow, it's very much like
I have a never endinglist of growing hobbies.
(23:51):
You know, like, it's likeI, I could take an interest
in anything and run withit for a bit, you know?
So I guess maybe that, youknow, I'm not as boring as my
LinkedIn might make it look.
Jason Lee (24:03):
That works.
So you want others toknow I'm not a boring guy.
Got it.
There we go.
Same answer.
David Rice (24:12):
Alright, well Jason, thanks for coming onto the show.
I really appreciate itand for giving us some
of your time today.
Jason Lee (24:16):
You bet.
Thanks so much, David.
David Rice (24:19):
All right, listeners, if you haven't done
so already, head on over topeoplemanagingpeople.com, get
signed up for the newsletter.
And until next time, startthat savings program even
if you gotta start small.
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