December 12, 2024 • 34 mins
Religion shapes our identities, communities, and worldviews, but what happens when it becomes a rigid boundary instead of a bridge to understanding? If religion is considered a taboo subject, how can we ever develop a deeper connection with people who think and believe differently than we do?
With over 4,000 religions worldwide, we explore whether the structure and community of faith draw us in or if there’s something more profound we’re all seeking. What happens when faith’s boundaries stop meaningful dialogue? Can love, a value shared by so many religions, transcend these divides?
Through personal stories and reflection, we ask the tough questions about faith, belonging, and whether religion can adapt to our diverse, ever-changing world. Why do some beliefs foster connection while others create division? How can openness and understanding reshape our faith and our lives?
Let’s tackle these questions and open the door to honest conversations about what matters most.
Remember, your Perch isn’t just a place to sit; it’s a place to seek a higher perspective.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Greetings, salutations and permutations,
fellow perchlings and followersof the Church of Perch, here we
are today.
Yes, well, today's topic isreligion.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh my God so.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I figured we will create our own religion today.
Today, we will be.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Toby is by himself in creating his own religion.
This is not Tricia.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Please be clear See she cannot distance herself
quickly enough from this topic.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
But today we will be talking about religion on the
Perch.
There are few powers moreuniting and dividing than the
power of religion.
For many, religion appears tooffer hope or redemption, and
that might explain why morepeople find religion as they age
, since they are looking theirmortality square in the eye.
We all want to believe there'ssomething more, especially as
(00:51):
we're reaching the proverbialputting green on our own 18th
hole.
Believers will follow theirreligion, dare I say religiously
.
Even though there are 4,000recognized religions in the
world today, there'sstatistically a .025% chance
that their denomination actuallyhas it all right, but to what
degree does that really matter?
(01:11):
Perhaps it's the fact thatreligion has rules, structure,
process and brotherhood that, atthe end of the day, appeals to
its followers beyond anydefinitive proof.
Therefore, it may be that thestructure that encompasses the
particular religion, which iswhat provides the comfort and
sense of belonging, more thanthe knowing of whether it all
(01:32):
says and believes and isactually
true.
We are complex organisms and weare capable of being loyal to
an idea or belief.
In much the same ways, we canbe loyal to something more
organic, say a spouse or asibling.
We don't have to touch it orfeel it, or even have proof that
it's real and exists for us todeclare our loyalty to something
.
Loyalty is an interestingconcept.
(01:55):
The idea that we sign on andderive some sense of comfort or
belonging, or even purpose is afascinating notion.
Psychologists have long studiedthe emotional ties associated
with loyalty and, while many ofthe internal motivations remain
a mystery, it's clear that we,as social beings, we strive to
belong and to adapt, to fit inand feel safe, and these are all
(02:17):
inherent benefits of loyaltyand something we're going to
ponder today on the Perch we'regonna ponder today on the perch.
Well, you said a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm not saying you blew my mind, you didn't even
bust my mind.
Maybe a little popcorn.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Mine popcorn.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Mine popcorn Welcome.
Welcome what's up tree.
So we're talking religion.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
We are.
How was your Thanksgiving?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I'm thankful.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Okay, there we go.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
That's all we can be.
We're talking religion.
We're talking Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You can't run away from this topic fast enough can
you?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
No, I don't.
I really so I can't pick atopic and then want to run from
it.
That would be kind of cowardice, right.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And you know, I think the disclaimer that I would say
is is we're not going to putour thumb on the scale of
whether there is god or thereisn't god.
It's really about the idea ofpeople being loyal to something
kind of, along with the seriesright something that they can't
touch necessarily or feel.
It's a belief, it's a followingand and it's it's how it makes
you feel it's again.
I guess our last episode wherewe talked about loyalty and
saying is there really loyaltyto a company?
Is it really more loyalty toyourself?
(03:29):
Is that how it's changed?
People are very loyal to theirreligion.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
And that's why, for me, I did pick religion and I'm
not afraid of this topic, and Iunderstand this is one of those
subjects where people aren'tcomfortable talking about it.
But it would be disingenuous todo a series on four parts of
loyalty and not bring upreligion when it's one of those
areas that people have verystrong beliefs, for or against,
(04:00):
and they're loyal to theirbeliefs if they believe or they
don't believe.
So I think it's important.
And then another reason, themost important reason I thought
that you know you can't changewhat you don't acknowledge, and
the fact that we are afraid totalk about religion because
we're afraid to offend, we'reafraid to insult or, like you
(04:23):
said, to put your thumb on ascale, but it's imperative.
We wouldn't be perched.
The essence of perch is topause and evaluate responses to
circumvent harm.
That's the basis of who we are.
So, and religion is the biggestconversation to have in its
(04:44):
space Because at the end of theday, it doesn't matter where our
loyalties lie.
We still need to be able tohear people and if we don't have
conversations, we don't learnthe ability to listen to views
or ideas and thoughts.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
That's different.
It almost seems like the lastmile of compassion, to a degree.
And you know, in my openingmonologue there it said you know
, in the history of the worldthere has been nothing more
uniting and divisive as religion.
And you know, and religion canunite us, you know, and it can
create all kinds of atrocities,and it's really a shame that
(05:23):
that, baked into so manyreligions, is a sense of
intolerance that says this isthe way.
And as we, you know, we talkedabout here at the beginning,
there are 4,000 recognizedreligions in the world today.
They can't all, by definition,be right.
You know, 85% of the worldidentifies with a religious
group, the four biggest onesbeing Christianity, judaism I'm
(05:46):
sorry five Christianityianity,judaism, islam, buddhism and
hinduism and the.
The irony is that muslims andbuddhists, their beliefs, are
completely opposite to the pointwhere muslims believe there is
a personal god who's omniscientand omnipotent, and that heaven
and hell awaits every person,whereas the buddhists believe
there is no personal God, theworld is eternal, man has no
(06:07):
soul and there is no heaven orhell and sin is purely an
illusion.
So they're completely at oddswith each other and yet somehow
we need to coexist on this ballthat's rolling around the
universe, and understand thatjust because my belief isn't the
same as yours doesn't make meany better or worse than you.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I think, for me, what I've always found fascinating
and powerful about religion isthat their God is like, not only
did you say omnipotent, buttheir God is so big and so
(06:52):
mighty and so powerful that hecan't be limited like he, and
even and I'm going to talk aboutChristianity because that's
that's my belief and and where Iwas raised but even in
Christianity it's fascinating.
Well, we know and we'll saythat his thoughts are above our
thoughts and his ways are aboveour ways, but some of us so
(07:14):
clearly think we can articulatehis thoughts and clearly think
we can articulate his ways.
Therefore, we make wrongeveryone and every religion.
That's outside of that and tome it's, it's, it's just
oxymoronic.
I was like, wait, I, I, I can't, I can't wrap my mind around it
(07:34):
.
That's why I don't havereligious debates.
I don't, I, I was like, becauseI do believe that I, I am a
believer, but I leave room forit to be so far beyond my
understanding and my and in myability to articulate that I'm
not going to debate you in it,because when I debate you, I am
(07:57):
there, therefore, now a voice,and when I come, I got to come
correct and that's the.
That's the problem with it,because it's the rigidity.
It's really rigid and religionis very and I have some, some
psychological things that theysay about that.
That's part of the problem.
And if we are in religion andif at the base of your
(08:18):
particular belief is love, loveis not rigid because love hides
a multitude of faults so it'sall the things that you know and
it's, and it's so.
That's why people struggle withreligion and believe it, and
that's why religious people havean issue with people like me
ever saying that they'respiritual because they were like
(08:40):
they feel like it's thecoward's way out.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
It's funny because we've talked about this on
previous episodes.
I grew up in a verynon-denominational house and I
believe that people may differwith this belief, but I believe
that it allows me to look atsomething like religion in an
objective manner, because Idon't have a dog in the hunt.
I didn't grow up as a andtherefore I have to either prove
(09:03):
or disprove or defend thatposition.
So when you pick this topic, Ilooked at it really as a
scholarly pursuit to try tounderstand religion and ask
myself basic questions Is therea God?
Do I believe there's a God?
Is there evidence to supportthat there's a God?
Does it really matter and thismay be blasphemous does it
(09:24):
really matter what form that Godtakes?
Can we all agree that there maybe, and there probably is, a
being or a something that isgreater than all of us?
And this idea where people say,well, if I can't touch it, smell
it, feel it doesn't exist, andthat's just so myopic, that's
just such a silly way to look atit, and I know that as we were
(09:45):
doing this research, both youand I were spending a lot of
time doing research and there'ssome great stuff on YouTube
about really the beginning ofthe universe and the Big Bang,
and how does life appear fromthe lifeless?
And there are some veryinteresting things and you start
to read them and say even thescholars, even the academics,
(10:07):
even the scientists say we don'tget how you go from nothing to
something right.
Something had to change and soit almost does speak to the
existence of some superior lifeform and whether you call that
God or Allah or whatever yourbelief believes in, we should
(10:29):
probably start with that as abasis and stop hating somebody
because they're a Seventh-dayAdventist or they're a Christian
scientist, or they're Islamicor Buddhist, and just all agree,
start with the most baselineand say can we all agree that
there's something greater thanus?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
For me, and maybe this is just far too simplistic
and its simplicity becomesradical, but for me, I don't
understand the debate Meaningand I'm going to perch, I'm
going to put it in a differentlight.
I'm not going to debate if I'ma woman.
I'm not going to debate if I'man African-American woman.
(11:07):
I'm not going to debate thatI'm a mother.
I am very clear on all thosethings.
So say what you want to say.
So if people who debatereligion are clear on their
belief and how they feel and theGod that they serve, in
whatever capacity, why are wefighting?
(11:28):
I mean, if someone sees itdifferent, why is it wrong that
they see it different?
Am I crazy?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
No, but one of the challenges is baked into the DNA
in so many religions is thatthis is the righteous path.
This is the way.
This is the word, and part ofthat we'll get back to what
we're talking about here.
Part of the loyalty is I'mloyal to that word, so I have to
believe excuse me that this iswhat happened.
(11:57):
Because if you now turn aroundand say I know I told you it was
this, it's really more likethis, then that rocks people's
sense of loyalty.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
But wait, I want to stop you right there, Because at
the core of what you just said,at the foundation of what you
said, is I have to believethat's personal, so you believe
that.
Believe it, and I think this isat the core of most of our
fundamental fights and arguments.
You believe it.
There's nothing wrong with youbelieving, but the fight comes
(12:28):
when someone else believesdifferent.
Now, if someone else it's, Iget the back and forth.
When you are now trying to takesomething I believe away,
that's a different conversation,meaning.
So the debate of you know,should we pray?
Where should this be, whereshould that be?
Then I get that, because nowsomeone feels like they're
(12:49):
taking something away.
I don't agree with it, but then, but what I'm saying is we, we,
we fight this debate every day.
Every day, it's like for oragainst.
You you're with.
Your religion isn't real andand that's a false god, and this
you know, christianity is theonly way.
And I was like but that's yourchoice, right?
(13:12):
Just like Muslims, you know,allies their way.
That's their choice.
I fight for the Muslims to havetheir choice, because I want to
have mine.
And I don't understand why wecan't meet in the middle and say
I don't want you telling mewhat to believe.
I want to be able to believewhat I want to believe.
I worship the way I want toworship, but because of my love,
(13:33):
I want you to be able tobelieve what I want to believe.
I worship the way I want toworship, but because of my love,
I want you to be able to do thesame.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
That's where I was going to go.
Loyalty is not synonymous withintolerance.
It doesn't mean I'm loyal tothis, then therefore I can't
believe in that or I can't dothat.
Loyalty should be to thyself,right.
So I'm loyal to this church.
I believe in it, I believe inits values, I don't believe in
(13:59):
abortion or I believe inmarriage and all those things,
but that should not make youintolerant to other people who
think differently.
So I mean, I remember the bighubbub years ago where people
said we can't wish people MerryChristmas.
Well, why not?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
I mean you might turn around and say well, because
they don't believe in Christ,and that's fine, and they're not
Christians.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Show tolerance to those people too.
Or I could say Happy Kwanzaa.
Or I could say Happy Hanukkah.
Now you may turn around and say, well, I'm Christian.
Oh then, merry, people who getbent over these things, you know
, to me show a lack of tolerance.
And you can't then turn aroundand wave the loyalty flag and
say I only do that because I'm agreat Christian.
Well, no, that's not true.
(14:41):
What you're doing is you'reshowing an intolerance to
somebody who doesn't believe inwhat you do.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Right, and I just want to read this from the
Frontiers, and it says it'sabout the psychological impacts
of rigid beliefs.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Cognitive rigidity Studies indicate that
individuals I think men sufferfrom cognitive rigidity don't
they Toby?
We are not going there.
Help me, jesus Toby.
Cognitive rigidity Studiesindicate that individuals and
women suffer from cognitiverigidity?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Okay, studies indicate that individuals.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And women suffer from cognitive rigidity.
We're going to stay on thattopic, but anyway.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Where's your leash?
I need something to calm youdown.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Like a toddler.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
she says I know Cognitive rigidity.
Studies indicate thatindividuals with rigid religious
beliefs often exhibit loweropenness to experiences and
higher need for closure, leadingto a preference for certainty
and a discomfort, a discomfortwith ambiguity.
(15:45):
and I think that that that's mypoint, and because I I know
personally a lot of people whowill not entertain any idea
other than yeah, which isfascinating to me because these
are educated people very oftensmart people, and I'm like, but
in your natural process youlisten and and I'm going to take
(16:08):
this and I know someone peoplemay call a blasphemous, but I'm
okay with this because I knowwhere I'm going with it but
successful corporations andbusinesses constantly learn.
They go back, they reevaluate,they look at what we did wrong,
what we did right, how can weimprove, and it's a constant
(16:31):
reevaluation for the bettermentof the good of the corporation.
Now I'm bringing this up totalk about religion.
If we are rigid and there's arigidity and we won't be open to
hearing something different orlearning a different perspective
, or be open to at leastunderstanding you don't have to
(16:52):
agree why people think- and feel.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
That was what I'd like to point out when you
finish your thought.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
No, and I was like, but it's to me part of, and I'm
going to take this back becauseat the core of most religion is
love.
So what we know about love andI'm not here to preach to
anybody, I'm just here toquestion and say what's at the
core of every person Consider,Consider.
Well, we all know that as weage and with time, for those of
(17:22):
who care to love, your love hasbeen stretched.
And it hasn't been stretchedbecause of age.
It hasn't been stretchedbecause of time.
It has been stretched becauseyou chose to dig deeper.
You chose to forgive whenothers didn't forgive.
You chose to love when peopledidn't love.
You forgive when others didn'tforgive.
(17:43):
You chose to love when peopledidn't love you.
So it gives you the capacityand the more you stretch
something, the better you become, because you're more open to it
.
And I don't understand for thelife of me why we who profess to
any kind of religion or beliefaren't as open for the
betterment of ourselves and ofhumanity.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I may want to disagree, and I'm not sure if
I'm disagreeing or not.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
You may want to disagree, but I'm not sure if
I'm disagreeing or not becauseI'm not sure, if what you're
saying is clear to me.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
In my mind, tolerance means that you don't think the
way I do or you don't believe inwhat I do.
But that's good, that's fine,I'm okay with that, I can put up
with it, but it doesn't meanI'm going to change my beliefs
to alter that.
So, for instance, I do kind ofhave a problem with religions
that start to try to pander toother beliefs that don't fall
(18:35):
within the constraints of whatthey really believe in.
So if I'm a church and Ibelieve that I'm going to use
the Wendy's church or I'm sorry,yes, the Wendy's church, and
I'm not open on Sundays, okay,so the church of Wendy's.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I'm closed on Sundays .
Oh, this is just a there's nochurch of Wendy's.
It's just a name?
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Okay, but I'm the church of Wendy's, so part of my
foundation is I'm not open onSunday.
And then all of a sudden thereare some people out there that
go, they're not open on Sundayand I change my beliefs.
I think that that's inherentlywrong.
I think a church or aninstitution stands for something
and it has principles andmorals and it has to be tolerant
of people outside of that.
But it shouldn't necessarilybend to the whims of either
(19:16):
society or other pressures ofeither society or other
pressures, unless theconstituents see a change going
on.
So I think of things like youknow, there have been situations
where all of a sudden somereligions will take on, you know
, whether it's a homosexualpriest or something like that.
Now, is that acceptable?
(19:37):
I don't know.
I mean, does it show tolerance?
I think so, but does it changethe core nature of what that
religion stands for?
And I think a religion needs tolook at itself inwardly and say
that's not really what we standfor, or maybe it is what we
stand for.
But this idea that tolerancemeans we've got to change the
way we think as an institution,no, no.
(19:58):
I think what it means istolerance means that the people
within the church can say Ithink this way, but I'm cool
with you thinking that way.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
I just have an issue with the word tolerance in
anything it gets under my skin.
That's just me.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Acceptance you don't like that one either.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
You know what I'm saying.
I mean live and let live.
I understand that.
But it's just like people likewell, I tolerate, you like
probably the wrong word yeah,yeah and so and I was like and
and I hear that, and I hear thatin that content, well, we
tolerate, I'm like, but you know, it's like are you an
omniscient being and you get todecide.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
I hear you maybe there's a better word out there,
but for instance I know it'sused all the time you and I live
together.
We're domestic and partners.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And I tolerate you and I understand that and I can
be intolerable.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
But you know, we live together.
We're not married under God.
God doesn't see us as oh, I'mnot going to tell you any of the
other stuff, it's just too.
But to many people, us livingin the same house would be
considered blasphemous, right?
And so all I'm saying is Iunderstand if somebody came to
(21:09):
us and said I'm not going tostay at your house, you're
living in sin, and I'd be like,okay, I get it.
I get it.
As long as you can be acceptingof our situation, we'll be
accepting of yours, and if youdon't feel comfortable staying
in the house, I'm good with that.
It shouldn't cause us afriendship.
It shouldn't do anything otherthan recognize that we
fundamentally have a differentway of looking at things, and
we're both I don't want to usethe mature word, but we're both
(21:32):
accepting enough of each other'scircumstances to support that.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
But I think that's a different.
I think it's different becauseit goes back to what's at the
core of what I said earlier.
That's personal, so you have aright to say you know, in my
house, like you know, I have anaunt that was like no, you guys
can't sleep in the same room.
And we could be 99 years old,and if we're not married, it's
not happening in her house.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Not at 99, it's not happening, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Oh, my God Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Sorry, okay, sorry.
Can we get back to thatrigidity for a second?
No, no, we're not going to.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
But the point of it is I would never be upset with
that because it should be yourhouse, your rules.
It's a problem when you try tomake your house your rules
outside of your house.
Now you cross the line.
And that's the same thing withreligion and everybody building
structure, whatever building youare, you have to say, just like
(22:23):
you, you know it was a commonsaying in a black community that
they came up in a church.
Now, for me and my house, we'regoing to serve the lord.
That's a common saying.
Most black people that grew upin a church know that saying.
It was like and essentiallywhat it's saying is I don't care
what you do in your house andwhat, but me and my house is,
it's how we're going to live.
I respect anyone.
That's your house.
I have an issue when you try totake the rules in your house
(22:45):
and make it the rules outsidetake them on the road.
Absolutely take them on a roadtrip that's when I have an issue
with it and I don't understandwhy the need to.
If I believe in God and, and,and I worship him and I have a
true belief in him, why am Igiving knocking another religion
(23:08):
?
I don't understand it.
I was like to me.
I have to say it and I knowpeople won't like it.
It's hypocritical.
It's hypocritical.
I want the right to believewhat I believe, worship how I
want to worship, and I want togive that right to everyone else
.
Why are we fighting each otherif you're not trying to bring it
(23:30):
in my home or you're not tryingto make it the law of the land?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
But the problem is we are fighting to make it the law
of the land and defining thatas the law of the land so many
of these religions have aself-sustaining clause in them
If you were a company, you wouldcall it a self-sustaining
clause which says we need tomake sure that we are the
religion of the future, nobodyelse.
(23:53):
So many of them say go to yourfriends, recruit your friends,
tell them that this is the way,this is the only way, and I've
mentioned this on anotherpodcast.
I had a very close friend incollege, actually when I got out
of college, who was a SouthernBaptist and I'm not making a
point of Southern Baptists, manyreligions are the same way and
he felt like I was going to hell.
And every weekend he just beatme up come to church with me,
(24:17):
come to church with me, come tochurch with me.
And he didn't care what Ibelieved.
It never came up.
He never said what do youbelieve in and what do you
follow?
It was you need to come tochurch with me.
And so finally, we had a I'lluse the term we had to come to
Jesus.
And I said why are you so justbelligerent about this?
About everything else in life,you're like that doesn't matter,
but this is like, oh my God,you have to go to church.
(24:38):
And he said you don'tunderstand If you don't go to
church with me and become aSouthern Baptist and claim Jesus
Christ as your Lord and Savior,you're going to hell.
And he was emotional when hesaid it, so it was baked into
the DNA of this religion that ifI didn't go to church with him,
I was going to go to hell.
And he loved me and he didn'twant me to go to hell.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
And I hear that.
I hear that, but this isanother thing that I I have to
call out, and that's why Ispecifically picked the, the
title of of this of about makinga belief, because that's what
religion is.
I'm not making this up, it's abelief system.
It's a belief, and when we makeit an absolute because that's
(25:23):
where it's this God, no God andnothing else and when we make it
so rigid, it really makes itcomplicated to us for us to
truly love our neighbor, becauseour neighbor could be an
atheist, our neighbor could beJewish, christian, and so if we
really want to get down to coreprinciples and values and love
(25:43):
in each other, we have to makeroom for everyone.
You don't have to think likethem, you don't have to move
like them.
And my last statement is thisis the part that blows my mind
and I'm going to specificallyaddress like Christianity,
because I know it's a fight, andI'm only bringing this up
because this is where we are inAmerica.
(26:09):
Well, it used to be.
America was a predominantlyChristian society.
Well, now, with the change inthe landscape, it's not.
It's Christianity.
Some it depends on where youread it.
Some say it's the majority,some say it's not, and some even
say we we're no longer areligious society.
Whatever you believe, youbelieve, I'm not here to debate
the numbers, but I I am here toquestion when we try to make it
the law of the land.
We want to put it, the bible,in the constitution.
(26:32):
You know, in whatever way wewant to take it, you know we put
the just recently in the bible.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
We put well, I going to have a but here and, much
like mine, it's going to be abig one.
Well, before you get your big.
But let me just finish.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I was like here is a religion that is based on choice
.
Every Christian knows that it'sa choice, because it's biblical
and that's what the Bible saysChoose.
Ye, it's all about choice.
You have a choice to believe meor not to believe me.
You have a choice to follow Godor not to follow God.
So, if you have a choice andGod has given us a choice, and
(27:09):
that's what you believe and I'msaying God, because that's what
I believe has given us a choice,why take that choice from
somebody else?
Why?
Because that's what we do whenwe tell someone else that it has
to be this way and this has tobe the law of the land.
So here comes my big butt.
You ready for my big butt?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
okay.
So I believe very strongly inindividual rights to to practice
what they do, providing itdoesn't impede on my ability to
do the same I've.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I've said the same thing, but here's my big, but
here's my big but.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
America and every country is founded on certain
values, and the United Stateswas founded on Christian values.
And where that should manifestitself is in our laws, in things
like the right to remain silentor the way that we conduct
ourselves.
(28:01):
Is a Christian society.
Now you might just say, well,that's common.
But let me give you an instance.
Okay, there are certain otherreligions that don't believe in
the Christian premise of laws.
For instance, there's thingscalled Sharia laws.
And all of a sudden, we cannotbe in a situation cannot's an
absolute word, but I'll use itwe cannot be in a situation
(28:22):
where a religion is allowed tosay, oh, we don't follow that,
we don't follow those laws, wedon't believe in those laws.
So there is a sense at timeswhere we have to agree on
something for our world.
There's a challenging problemin some countries in the world
England is having one wherethere are huge populations of
(28:44):
large religious populations andthey're saying we no longer
abide by your laws, we willabide by Sharia law.
And you're like, wait, hold ona second.
You know, Sharia law ispracticed in a country where
that religion is the basis oftheir foundational belief.
The United States is founded onChristian values and so you can
practice your religion.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, how to?
Where does church and statecome in?
When you say the United States,you?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
have to have some foundation of laws.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
No, I'm just asking a basic question.
It is a.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Christian country by definition Doesn't mean we can't
be supportive of otherreligions and we are At the
foundation is the Constitution.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
At the foundation there's a separation of church
and state.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
There is but the values that derive.
Our laws are derived fromChristian values.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
But you also know, oh , we're not going to go there
because that's a wholeconversation, because at the
same time those same laws.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
when you point out, but you cannot allow people to
follow whatever laws they wantto follow.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
We're not no, but that's all I'm saying.
But you have laws and that'swhat the Constitution and the
amendment is Right.
But what if?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
somebody comes to this country and says my God
tells me that my laws are theseand I don't believe in your laws
?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Are you for church and state, separation of church
and state or not?
I don't understand what you'resaying.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
All I'm saying is that's a somewhat immaterial
conversation, because what I'msaying is the laws in our
country were founded onprincipally Christian values.
That's where they were founded.
So people coming from otherdenominations or beliefs might
say I don't believe in yours.
The right that a woman is equalunder the eyes of the law is
(30:20):
not true in many religions.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
It wasn't true in the foundation of our law.
Yes, it is.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Women are considered the same as men.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
You said you just went back to founders and I was
just being real.
When our laws were founded,women weren't the same.
Well, you're talking aboutthings like voting.
I'm talking about values as ahuman being.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Okay, you might say that women couldn't vote.
I understand that, but what I'msaying is that in some
(30:57):
religions, women are looked atas less than a man, and what I'm
saying you.
But I can tell you that inSharia law, your life is worth
less than it is in a Christiansociety.
And you need to.
You don't need to do anything,but you should appreciate the
fact that we cannot be in asituation where, just because we
have religious freedom, thatchanges our laws.
(31:20):
And that's all I'm saying.
Well, I'm going to wrap up.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I had no idea we would get to Shireel now, who
knew where we were going to go?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Because I did not know we were going there at all,
I was not prepared for thatKind of jumped the shark.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, because we literally were just talking
about loyalty, but I want tothank you for joining us again
at this perch.
We're always at the core.
We just ask that you know wepause and evaluate our responses
because ultimately we allshould try to do a job, then
circumvent harm and really getto understand and know each
(31:52):
other better.
We get to know each otherbetter when we actually talk to
each other.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
The word of the day is acceptance.
Oh sorry, I was doing my SesameStreet there.
Are we on Sesame Street?
Now I was, I was, oh my God, ifwe had to count here we could
say the world of the no.
No, he said 1-1,000.
Oh, that's right, 2-2,000.
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
As we close this series, I want to share
something personal about thejourney that brought us here.
When I begin counting the costof loyalty, got you looking at
me.
Why stay true to what isfailure?
This is yeah, I'm, yeah, I'mkeep, I'm stopping to kind of
(32:32):
like buy time.
That's really moving that better.
Yes, sorry, I'm sorry.
Here we go.
As we close this series, I wantto share something personal
About the journey that broughtus here.
When I began Counting the costof loyalty why stay true To what
(32:54):
is value?
These four topics Love,politics, careers and religion
came to mind Immediately.
I didn't know why.
There was a deep connectionwould be revealed, and it
revealed itself, and it did inways I would never imagine.
These topics aren't justsignificant, they're the
(33:18):
unspoken taboos of our lives.
We avoid talking about jobsbecause pay might come up.
We dodge politics becauseknowing how someone votes could
challenge our assumptions.
Religion feels too sensitiveand love feels too personal.
(33:39):
These are the things that shapeus most deeply, yet we build
walls around them.
But what if we open the door toreal conversations, if we
listen to each other withoutjudgment?
Maybe, just maybe, we discoverwe're not as divided as we think
(34:02):
.
Just maybe we discover we'renot as divided as we think.
Maybe we'll find growth in ourrelationships, in our
communities and possibly evenour faith.
So, as we step away from thisseries, I invite you to reflect.
What would it mean to bringthese conversations into your
life?
To bring these conversationsinto your life, because when we
(34:27):
make space to truly hear eachother, we make space for
understanding and change.
And remember your perch isn'tjust a place to sit, it's a
place to rise.
Until next time, keep seekingthe higher perspective.
Greetings, salutations and permutations,
fellow perchlings and followersof the Church of Perch, here we
are today.
Yes, well, today's topic isreligion.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh my God so.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I figured we will create our own religion today.
Today, we will be.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Toby is by himself in creating his own religion.
This is not Tricia.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Please be clear See she cannot distance herself
quickly enough from this topic.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
But today we will be talking about religion on the
Perch.
There are few powers moreuniting and dividing than the
power of religion.
For many, religion appears tooffer hope or redemption, and
that might explain why morepeople find religion as they age
, since they are looking theirmortality square in the eye.
We all want to believe there'ssomething more, especially as
(00:51):
we're reaching the proverbialputting green on our own 18th
hole.
Believers will follow theirreligion, dare I say religiously
.
Even though there are 4,000recognized religions in the
world today, there'sstatistically a .025% chance
that their denomination actuallyhas it all right, but to what
degree does that really matter?
(01:11):
Perhaps it's the fact thatreligion has rules, structure,
process and brotherhood that, atthe end of the day, appeals to
its followers beyond anydefinitive proof.
Therefore, it may be that thestructure that encompasses the
particular religion, which iswhat provides the comfort and
sense of belonging, more thanthe knowing of whether it all
(01:32):
says and believes and isactually
true.
We are complex organisms and weare capable of being loyal to
an idea or belief.
In much the same ways, we canbe loyal to something more
organic, say a spouse or asibling.
We don't have to touch it orfeel it, or even have proof that
it's real and exists for us todeclare our loyalty to something
.
Loyalty is an interestingconcept.
(01:55):
The idea that we sign on andderive some sense of comfort or
belonging, or even purpose is afascinating notion.
Psychologists have long studiedthe emotional ties associated
with loyalty and, while many ofthe internal motivations remain
a mystery, it's clear that we,as social beings, we strive to
belong and to adapt, to fit inand feel safe, and these are all
(02:17):
inherent benefits of loyaltyand something we're going to
ponder today on the Perch we'regonna ponder today on the perch.
Well, you said a lot.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm not saying you blew my mind, you didn't even
bust my mind.
Maybe a little popcorn.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Mine popcorn.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Mine popcorn Welcome.
Welcome what's up tree.
So we're talking religion.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
We are.
How was your Thanksgiving?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I'm thankful.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Okay, there we go.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
That's all we can be.
We're talking religion.
We're talking Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You can't run away from this topic fast enough can
you?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
No, I don't.
I really so I can't pick atopic and then want to run from
it.
That would be kind of cowardice, right.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And you know, I think the disclaimer that I would say
is is we're not going to putour thumb on the scale of
whether there is god or thereisn't god.
It's really about the idea ofpeople being loyal to something
kind of, along with the seriesright something that they can't
touch necessarily or feel.
It's a belief, it's a followingand and it's it's how it makes
you feel it's again.
I guess our last episode wherewe talked about loyalty and
saying is there really loyaltyto a company?
Is it really more loyalty toyourself?
(03:29):
Is that how it's changed?
People are very loyal to theirreligion.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
And that's why, for me, I did pick religion and I'm
not afraid of this topic, and Iunderstand this is one of those
subjects where people aren'tcomfortable talking about it.
But it would be disingenuous todo a series on four parts of
loyalty and not bring upreligion when it's one of those
areas that people have verystrong beliefs, for or against,
(04:00):
and they're loyal to theirbeliefs if they believe or they
don't believe.
So I think it's important.
And then another reason, themost important reason I thought
that you know you can't changewhat you don't acknowledge, and
the fact that we are afraid totalk about religion because
we're afraid to offend, we'reafraid to insult or, like you
(04:23):
said, to put your thumb on ascale, but it's imperative.
We wouldn't be perched.
The essence of perch is topause and evaluate responses to
circumvent harm.
That's the basis of who we are.
So, and religion is the biggestconversation to have in its
(04:44):
space Because at the end of theday, it doesn't matter where our
loyalties lie.
We still need to be able tohear people and if we don't have
conversations, we don't learnthe ability to listen to views
or ideas and thoughts.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
That's different.
It almost seems like the lastmile of compassion, to a degree.
And you know, in my openingmonologue there it said you know
, in the history of the worldthere has been nothing more
uniting and divisive as religion.
And you know, and religion canunite us, you know, and it can
create all kinds of atrocities,and it's really a shame that
(05:23):
that, baked into so manyreligions, is a sense of
intolerance that says this isthe way.
And as we, you know, we talkedabout here at the beginning,
there are 4,000 recognizedreligions in the world today.
They can't all, by definition,be right.
You know, 85% of the worldidentifies with a religious
group, the four biggest onesbeing Christianity, judaism I'm
(05:46):
sorry five Christianityianity,judaism, islam, buddhism and
hinduism and the.
The irony is that muslims andbuddhists, their beliefs, are
completely opposite to the pointwhere muslims believe there is
a personal god who's omniscientand omnipotent, and that heaven
and hell awaits every person,whereas the buddhists believe
there is no personal God, theworld is eternal, man has no
(06:07):
soul and there is no heaven orhell and sin is purely an
illusion.
So they're completely at oddswith each other and yet somehow
we need to coexist on this ballthat's rolling around the
universe, and understand thatjust because my belief isn't the
same as yours doesn't make meany better or worse than you.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I think, for me, what I've always found fascinating
and powerful about religion isthat their God is like, not only
did you say omnipotent, buttheir God is so big and so
(06:52):
mighty and so powerful that hecan't be limited like he, and
even and I'm going to talk aboutChristianity because that's
that's my belief and and where Iwas raised but even in
Christianity it's fascinating.
Well, we know and we'll saythat his thoughts are above our
thoughts and his ways are aboveour ways, but some of us so
(07:14):
clearly think we can articulatehis thoughts and clearly think
we can articulate his ways.
Therefore, we make wrongeveryone and every religion.
That's outside of that and tome it's, it's, it's just
oxymoronic.
I was like, wait, I, I, I can't, I can't wrap my mind around it
(07:34):
.
That's why I don't havereligious debates.
I don't, I, I was like, becauseI do believe that I, I am a
believer, but I leave room forit to be so far beyond my
understanding and my and in myability to articulate that I'm
not going to debate you in it,because when I debate you, I am
(07:57):
there, therefore, now a voice,and when I come, I got to come
correct and that's the.
That's the problem with it,because it's the rigidity.
It's really rigid and religionis very and I have some, some
psychological things that theysay about that.
That's part of the problem.
And if we are in religion andif at the base of your
(08:18):
particular belief is love, loveis not rigid because love hides
a multitude of faults so it'sall the things that you know and
it's, and it's so.
That's why people struggle withreligion and believe it, and
that's why religious people havean issue with people like me
ever saying that they'respiritual because they were like
(08:40):
they feel like it's thecoward's way out.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
It's funny because we've talked about this on
previous episodes.
I grew up in a verynon-denominational house and I
believe that people may differwith this belief, but I believe
that it allows me to look atsomething like religion in an
objective manner, because Idon't have a dog in the hunt.
I didn't grow up as a andtherefore I have to either prove
(09:03):
or disprove or defend thatposition.
So when you pick this topic, Ilooked at it really as a
scholarly pursuit to try tounderstand religion and ask
myself basic questions Is therea God?
Do I believe there's a God?
Is there evidence to supportthat there's a God?
Does it really matter and thismay be blasphemous does it
(09:24):
really matter what form that Godtakes?
Can we all agree that there maybe, and there probably is, a
being or a something that isgreater than all of us?
And this idea where people say,well, if I can't touch it, smell
it, feel it doesn't exist, andthat's just so myopic, that's
just such a silly way to look atit, and I know that as we were
(09:45):
doing this research, both youand I were spending a lot of
time doing research and there'ssome great stuff on YouTube
about really the beginning ofthe universe and the Big Bang,
and how does life appear fromthe lifeless?
And there are some veryinteresting things and you start
to read them and say even thescholars, even the academics,
(10:07):
even the scientists say we don'tget how you go from nothing to
something right.
Something had to change and soit almost does speak to the
existence of some superior lifeform and whether you call that
God or Allah or whatever yourbelief believes in, we should
(10:29):
probably start with that as abasis and stop hating somebody
because they're a Seventh-dayAdventist or they're a Christian
scientist, or they're Islamicor Buddhist, and just all agree,
start with the most baselineand say can we all agree that
there's something greater thanus?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
For me, and maybe this is just far too simplistic
and its simplicity becomesradical, but for me, I don't
understand the debate Meaningand I'm going to perch, I'm
going to put it in a differentlight.
I'm not going to debate if I'ma woman.
I'm not going to debate if I'man African-American woman.
(11:07):
I'm not going to debate thatI'm a mother.
I am very clear on all thosethings.
So say what you want to say.
So if people who debatereligion are clear on their
belief and how they feel and theGod that they serve, in
whatever capacity, why are wefighting?
(11:28):
I mean, if someone sees itdifferent, why is it wrong that
they see it different?
Am I crazy?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
No, but one of the challenges is baked into the DNA
in so many religions is thatthis is the righteous path.
This is the way.
This is the word, and part ofthat we'll get back to what
we're talking about here.
Part of the loyalty is I'mloyal to that word, so I have to
believe excuse me that this iswhat happened.
(11:57):
Because if you now turn aroundand say I know I told you it was
this, it's really more likethis, then that rocks people's
sense of loyalty.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
But wait, I want to stop you right there, Because at
the core of what you just said,at the foundation of what you
said, is I have to believethat's personal, so you believe
that.
Believe it, and I think this isat the core of most of our
fundamental fights and arguments.
You believe it.
There's nothing wrong with youbelieving, but the fight comes
(12:28):
when someone else believesdifferent.
Now, if someone else it's, Iget the back and forth.
When you are now trying to takesomething I believe away,
that's a different conversation,meaning.
So the debate of you know,should we pray?
Where should this be, whereshould that be?
Then I get that, because nowsomeone feels like they're
(12:49):
taking something away.
I don't agree with it, but then, but what I'm saying is we, we,
we fight this debate every day.
Every day, it's like for oragainst.
You you're with.
Your religion isn't real andand that's a false god, and this
you know, christianity is theonly way.
And I was like but that's yourchoice, right?
(13:12):
Just like Muslims, you know,allies their way.
That's their choice.
I fight for the Muslims to havetheir choice, because I want to
have mine.
And I don't understand why wecan't meet in the middle and say
I don't want you telling mewhat to believe.
I want to be able to believewhat I want to believe.
I worship the way I want toworship, but because of my love,
(13:33):
I want you to be able tobelieve what I want to believe.
I worship the way I want toworship, but because of my love,
I want you to be able to do thesame.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
That's where I was going to go.
Loyalty is not synonymous withintolerance.
It doesn't mean I'm loyal tothis, then therefore I can't
believe in that or I can't dothat.
Loyalty should be to thyself,right.
So I'm loyal to this church.
I believe in it, I believe inits values, I don't believe in
(13:59):
abortion or I believe inmarriage and all those things,
but that should not make youintolerant to other people who
think differently.
So I mean, I remember the bighubbub years ago where people
said we can't wish people MerryChristmas.
Well, why not?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
I mean you might turn around and say well, because
they don't believe in Christ,and that's fine, and they're not
Christians.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Show tolerance to those people too.
Or I could say Happy Kwanzaa.
Or I could say Happy Hanukkah.
Now you may turn around and say, well, I'm Christian.
Oh then, merry, people who getbent over these things, you know
, to me show a lack of tolerance.
And you can't then turn aroundand wave the loyalty flag and
say I only do that because I'm agreat Christian.
Well, no, that's not true.
(14:41):
What you're doing is you'reshowing an intolerance to
somebody who doesn't believe inwhat you do.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Right, and I just want to read this from the
Frontiers, and it says it'sabout the psychological impacts
of rigid beliefs.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Cognitive rigidity Studies indicate that
individuals I think men sufferfrom cognitive rigidity don't
they Toby?
We are not going there.
Help me, jesus Toby.
Cognitive rigidity Studiesindicate that individuals and
women suffer from cognitiverigidity?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Okay, studies indicate that individuals.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
And women suffer from cognitive rigidity.
We're going to stay on thattopic, but anyway.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Where's your leash?
I need something to calm youdown.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Like a toddler.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
she says I know Cognitive rigidity.
Studies indicate thatindividuals with rigid religious
beliefs often exhibit loweropenness to experiences and
higher need for closure, leadingto a preference for certainty
and a discomfort, a discomfortwith ambiguity.
(15:45):
and I think that that that's mypoint, and because I I know
personally a lot of people whowill not entertain any idea
other than yeah, which isfascinating to me because these
are educated people very oftensmart people, and I'm like, but
in your natural process youlisten and and I'm going to take
(16:08):
this and I know someone peoplemay call a blasphemous, but I'm
okay with this because I knowwhere I'm going with it but
successful corporations andbusinesses constantly learn.
They go back, they reevaluate,they look at what we did wrong,
what we did right, how can weimprove, and it's a constant
(16:31):
reevaluation for the bettermentof the good of the corporation.
Now I'm bringing this up totalk about religion.
If we are rigid and there's arigidity and we won't be open to
hearing something different orlearning a different perspective
, or be open to at leastunderstanding you don't have to
(16:52):
agree why people think- and feel.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
That was what I'd like to point out when you
finish your thought.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
No, and I was like, but it's to me part of, and I'm
going to take this back becauseat the core of most religion is
love.
So what we know about love andI'm not here to preach to
anybody, I'm just here toquestion and say what's at the
core of every person Consider,Consider.
Well, we all know that as weage and with time, for those of
(17:22):
who care to love, your love hasbeen stretched.
And it hasn't been stretchedbecause of age.
It hasn't been stretchedbecause of time.
It has been stretched becauseyou chose to dig deeper.
You chose to forgive whenothers didn't forgive.
You chose to love when peopledidn't love.
You forgive when others didn'tforgive.
(17:43):
You chose to love when peopledidn't love you.
So it gives you the capacityand the more you stretch
something, the better you become, because you're more open to it
.
And I don't understand for thelife of me why we who profess to
any kind of religion or beliefaren't as open for the
betterment of ourselves and ofhumanity.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I may want to disagree, and I'm not sure if
I'm disagreeing or not.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
You may want to disagree, but I'm not sure if
I'm disagreeing or not becauseI'm not sure, if what you're
saying is clear to me.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
In my mind, tolerance means that you don't think the
way I do or you don't believe inwhat I do.
But that's good, that's fine,I'm okay with that, I can put up
with it, but it doesn't meanI'm going to change my beliefs
to alter that.
So, for instance, I do kind ofhave a problem with religions
that start to try to pander toother beliefs that don't fall
(18:35):
within the constraints of whatthey really believe in.
So if I'm a church and Ibelieve that I'm going to use
the Wendy's church or I'm sorry,yes, the Wendy's church, and
I'm not open on Sundays, okay,so the church of Wendy's.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I'm closed on Sundays .
Oh, this is just a there's nochurch of Wendy's.
It's just a name?
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Okay, but I'm the church of Wendy's, so part of my
foundation is I'm not open onSunday.
And then all of a sudden thereare some people out there that
go, they're not open on Sundayand I change my beliefs.
I think that that's inherentlywrong.
I think a church or aninstitution stands for something
and it has principles andmorals and it has to be tolerant
of people outside of that.
But it shouldn't necessarilybend to the whims of either
(19:16):
society or other pressures ofeither society or other
pressures, unless theconstituents see a change going
on.
So I think of things like youknow, there have been situations
where all of a sudden somereligions will take on, you know
, whether it's a homosexualpriest or something like that.
Now, is that acceptable?
(19:37):
I don't know.
I mean, does it show tolerance?
I think so, but does it changethe core nature of what that
religion stands for?
And I think a religion needs tolook at itself inwardly and say
that's not really what we standfor, or maybe it is what we
stand for.
But this idea that tolerancemeans we've got to change the
way we think as an institution,no, no.
(19:58):
I think what it means istolerance means that the people
within the church can say Ithink this way, but I'm cool
with you thinking that way.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
I just have an issue with the word tolerance in
anything it gets under my skin.
That's just me.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Acceptance you don't like that one either.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
You know what I'm saying.
I mean live and let live.
I understand that.
But it's just like people likewell, I tolerate, you like
probably the wrong word yeah,yeah and so and I was like and
and I hear that, and I hear thatin that content, well, we
tolerate, I'm like, but you know, it's like are you an
omniscient being and you get todecide.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
I hear you maybe there's a better word out there,
but for instance I know it'sused all the time you and I live
together.
We're domestic and partners.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And I tolerate you and I understand that and I can
be intolerable.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
But you know, we live together.
We're not married under God.
God doesn't see us as oh, I'mnot going to tell you any of the
other stuff, it's just too.
But to many people, us livingin the same house would be
considered blasphemous, right?
And so all I'm saying is Iunderstand if somebody came to
(21:09):
us and said I'm not going tostay at your house, you're
living in sin, and I'd be like,okay, I get it.
I get it.
As long as you can be acceptingof our situation, we'll be
accepting of yours, and if youdon't feel comfortable staying
in the house, I'm good with that.
It shouldn't cause us afriendship.
It shouldn't do anything otherthan recognize that we
fundamentally have a differentway of looking at things, and
we're both I don't want to usethe mature word, but we're both
(21:32):
accepting enough of each other'scircumstances to support that.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
But I think that's a different.
I think it's different becauseit goes back to what's at the
core of what I said earlier.
That's personal, so you have aright to say you know, in my
house, like you know, I have anaunt that was like no, you guys
can't sleep in the same room.
And we could be 99 years old,and if we're not married, it's
not happening in her house.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Not at 99, it's not happening, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Oh, my God Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Sorry, okay, sorry.
Can we get back to thatrigidity for a second?
No, no, we're not going to.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
But the point of it is I would never be upset with
that because it should be yourhouse, your rules.
It's a problem when you try tomake your house your rules
outside of your house.
Now you cross the line.
And that's the same thing withreligion and everybody building
structure, whatever building youare, you have to say, just like
(22:23):
you, you know it was a commonsaying in a black community that
they came up in a church.
Now, for me and my house, we'regoing to serve the lord.
That's a common saying.
Most black people that grew upin a church know that saying.
It was like and essentiallywhat it's saying is I don't care
what you do in your house andwhat, but me and my house is,
it's how we're going to live.
I respect anyone.
That's your house.
I have an issue when you try totake the rules in your house
(22:45):
and make it the rules outsidetake them on the road.
Absolutely take them on a roadtrip that's when I have an issue
with it and I don't understandwhy the need to.
If I believe in God and, and,and I worship him and I have a
true belief in him, why am Igiving knocking another religion
(23:08):
?
I don't understand it.
I was like to me.
I have to say it and I knowpeople won't like it.
It's hypocritical.
It's hypocritical.
I want the right to believewhat I believe, worship how I
want to worship, and I want togive that right to everyone else
.
Why are we fighting each otherif you're not trying to bring it
(23:30):
in my home or you're not tryingto make it the law of the land?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
But the problem is we are fighting to make it the law
of the land and defining thatas the law of the land so many
of these religions have aself-sustaining clause in them
If you were a company, you wouldcall it a self-sustaining
clause which says we need tomake sure that we are the
religion of the future, nobodyelse.
(23:53):
So many of them say go to yourfriends, recruit your friends,
tell them that this is the way,this is the only way, and I've
mentioned this on anotherpodcast.
I had a very close friend incollege, actually when I got out
of college, who was a SouthernBaptist and I'm not making a
point of Southern Baptists, manyreligions are the same way and
he felt like I was going to hell.
And every weekend he just beatme up come to church with me,
(24:17):
come to church with me, come tochurch with me.
And he didn't care what Ibelieved.
It never came up.
He never said what do youbelieve in and what do you
follow?
It was you need to come tochurch with me.
And so finally, we had a I'lluse the term we had to come to
Jesus.
And I said why are you so justbelligerent about this?
About everything else in life,you're like that doesn't matter,
but this is like, oh my God,you have to go to church.
(24:38):
And he said you don'tunderstand If you don't go to
church with me and become aSouthern Baptist and claim Jesus
Christ as your Lord and Savior,you're going to hell.
And he was emotional when hesaid it, so it was baked into
the DNA of this religion that ifI didn't go to church with him,
I was going to go to hell.
And he loved me and he didn'twant me to go to hell.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
And I hear that.
I hear that, but this isanother thing that I I have to
call out, and that's why Ispecifically picked the, the
title of of this of about makinga belief, because that's what
religion is.
I'm not making this up, it's abelief system.
It's a belief, and when we makeit an absolute because that's
(25:23):
where it's this God, no God andnothing else and when we make it
so rigid, it really makes itcomplicated to us for us to
truly love our neighbor, becauseour neighbor could be an
atheist, our neighbor could beJewish, christian, and so if we
really want to get down to coreprinciples and values and love
(25:43):
in each other, we have to makeroom for everyone.
You don't have to think likethem, you don't have to move
like them.
And my last statement is thisis the part that blows my mind
and I'm going to specificallyaddress like Christianity,
because I know it's a fight, andI'm only bringing this up
because this is where we are inAmerica.
(26:09):
Well, it used to be.
America was a predominantlyChristian society.
Well, now, with the change inthe landscape, it's not.
It's Christianity.
Some it depends on where youread it.
Some say it's the majority,some say it's not, and some even
say we we're no longer areligious society.
Whatever you believe, youbelieve, I'm not here to debate
the numbers, but I I am here toquestion when we try to make it
the law of the land.
We want to put it, the bible,in the constitution.
(26:32):
You know, in whatever way wewant to take it, you know we put
the just recently in the bible.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
We put well, I going to have a but here and, much
like mine, it's going to be abig one.
Well, before you get your big.
But let me just finish.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I was like here is a religion that is based on choice
.
Every Christian knows that it'sa choice, because it's biblical
and that's what the Bible saysChoose.
Ye, it's all about choice.
You have a choice to believe meor not to believe me.
You have a choice to follow Godor not to follow God.
So, if you have a choice andGod has given us a choice, and
(27:09):
that's what you believe and I'msaying God, because that's what
I believe has given us a choice,why take that choice from
somebody else?
Why?
Because that's what we do whenwe tell someone else that it has
to be this way and this has tobe the law of the land.
So here comes my big butt.
You ready for my big butt?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
okay.
So I believe very strongly inindividual rights to to practice
what they do, providing itdoesn't impede on my ability to
do the same I've.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I've said the same thing, but here's my big, but
here's my big but.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
America and every country is founded on certain
values, and the United Stateswas founded on Christian values.
And where that should manifestitself is in our laws, in things
like the right to remain silentor the way that we conduct
ourselves.
(28:01):
Is a Christian society.
Now you might just say, well,that's common.
But let me give you an instance.
Okay, there are certain otherreligions that don't believe in
the Christian premise of laws.
For instance, there's thingscalled Sharia laws.
And all of a sudden, we cannotbe in a situation cannot's an
absolute word, but I'll use itwe cannot be in a situation
(28:22):
where a religion is allowed tosay, oh, we don't follow that,
we don't follow those laws, wedon't believe in those laws.
So there is a sense at timeswhere we have to agree on
something for our world.
There's a challenging problemin some countries in the world
England is having one wherethere are huge populations of
(28:44):
large religious populations andthey're saying we no longer
abide by your laws, we willabide by Sharia law.
And you're like, wait, hold ona second.
You know, Sharia law ispracticed in a country where
that religion is the basis oftheir foundational belief.
The United States is founded onChristian values and so you can
practice your religion.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, how to?
Where does church and statecome in?
When you say the United States,you?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
have to have some foundation of laws.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
No, I'm just asking a basic question.
It is a.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Christian country by definition Doesn't mean we can't
be supportive of otherreligions and we are At the
foundation is the Constitution.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
At the foundation there's a separation of church
and state.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
There is but the values that derive.
Our laws are derived fromChristian values.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
But you also know, oh , we're not going to go there
because that's a wholeconversation, because at the
same time those same laws.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
when you point out, but you cannot allow people to
follow whatever laws they wantto follow.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
We're not no, but that's all I'm saying.
But you have laws and that'swhat the Constitution and the
amendment is Right.
But what if?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
somebody comes to this country and says my God
tells me that my laws are theseand I don't believe in your laws
?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Are you for church and state, separation of church
and state or not?
I don't understand what you'resaying.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
All I'm saying is that's a somewhat immaterial
conversation, because what I'msaying is the laws in our
country were founded onprincipally Christian values.
That's where they were founded.
So people coming from otherdenominations or beliefs might
say I don't believe in yours.
The right that a woman is equalunder the eyes of the law is
(30:20):
not true in many religions.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
It wasn't true in the foundation of our law.
Yes, it is.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Women are considered the same as men.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
You said you just went back to founders and I was
just being real.
When our laws were founded,women weren't the same.
Well, you're talking aboutthings like voting.
I'm talking about values as ahuman being.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Okay, you might say that women couldn't vote.
I understand that, but what I'msaying is that in some
(30:57):
religions, women are looked atas less than a man, and what I'm
saying you.
But I can tell you that inSharia law, your life is worth
less than it is in a Christiansociety.
And you need to.
You don't need to do anything,but you should appreciate the
fact that we cannot be in asituation where, just because we
have religious freedom, thatchanges our laws.
(31:20):
And that's all I'm saying.
Well, I'm going to wrap up.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
I had no idea we would get to Shireel now, who
knew where we were going to go?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Because I did not know we were going there at all,
I was not prepared for thatKind of jumped the shark.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, because we literally were just talking
about loyalty, but I want tothank you for joining us again
at this perch.
We're always at the core.
We just ask that you know wepause and evaluate our responses
because ultimately we allshould try to do a job, then
circumvent harm and really getto understand and know each
(31:52):
other better.
We get to know each otherbetter when we actually talk to
each other.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
The word of the day is acceptance.
Oh sorry, I was doing my SesameStreet there.
Are we on Sesame Street?
Now I was, I was, oh my God, ifwe had to count here we could
say the world of the no.
No, he said 1-1,000.
Oh, that's right, 2-2,000.
Anyway.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
As we close this series, I want to share
something personal about thejourney that brought us here.
When I begin counting the costof loyalty, got you looking at
me.
Why stay true to what isfailure?
This is yeah, I'm, yeah, I'mkeep, I'm stopping to kind of
(32:32):
like buy time.
That's really moving that better.
Yes, sorry, I'm sorry.
Here we go.
As we close this series, I wantto share something personal
About the journey that broughtus here.
When I began Counting the costof loyalty why stay true To what
(32:54):
is value?
These four topics Love,politics, careers and religion
came to mind Immediately.
I didn't know why.
There was a deep connectionwould be revealed, and it
revealed itself, and it did inways I would never imagine.
These topics aren't justsignificant, they're the
(33:18):
unspoken taboos of our lives.
We avoid talking about jobsbecause pay might come up.
We dodge politics becauseknowing how someone votes could
challenge our assumptions.
Religion feels too sensitiveand love feels too personal.
(33:39):
These are the things that shapeus most deeply, yet we build
walls around them.
But what if we open the door toreal conversations, if we
listen to each other withoutjudgment?
Maybe, just maybe, we discoverwe're not as divided as we think
(34:02):
.
Just maybe we discover we'renot as divided as we think.
Maybe we'll find growth in ourrelationships, in our
communities and possibly evenour faith.
So, as we step away from thisseries, I invite you to reflect.
What would it mean to bringthese conversations into your
life?
To bring these conversationsinto your life, because when we
(34:27):
make space to truly hear eachother, we make space for
understanding and change.
And remember your perch isn'tjust a place to sit, it's a
place to rise.
Until next time, keep seekingthe higher perspective.
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