May 30, 2025 • 37 mins
It's the final podcast from Perry and Shawna.
We bid farewell to Ben with “An Ode to Ben,” courtesy of ChatGPT. As Shawna points out, “To know Ben’s heart you need to hear him pray.”
Then, Perry had a dream in Venice. In it, his right now self was speaking words of hope to a much younger version of his dad. He had no idea why he would have that dream until yesterday.
Next, when Scott Curtis gave his treasured parking spot to Shawna after her foot surgery, that was more powerful to her than a thousand sermons.
Then Shawna shares, “I tried to talk Jack Haveman out of hiring me. I had 0 radio experience!” Jack joins us to share why. And why did Perry ask Shawna about Star Wars in her job interview?
Former atheist Howard Shores shares his near death experience. He expected nothing when he drew his final breath. Instead he was enveloped in utter darkness and the demonic. But then....
Perry says, “Shawna you’ve got such a great heart, share it one more time with our amazing friends!”
Last, Perry and Shawna know goodbyes are hard. But like a trapeze artist we’re letting go of one bar as the other is coming to meet us. Perry and Shawna share the words of an ending and a new beginning.
“It’s been an honor to be on the journey with you! We love you!” Perry and Shawna
Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshow/wgnb
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:03):
It's the Perry and Shawna podcast on the real life
journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved
child and that Jesus has called you into his massive
mission to heal the world.
S2 (00:17):
I don't know if you've ever had, like, a favorite
TV show, maybe the cast of friends or some other
TV show. Over time, you spend time with these characters
and they kind of become part of the family. They
become endearing. There are things about them that you just
come to know and love. Well, that's kind of been
a little bit what it's been like to do Perry
and Shawna mornings together. The cast of characters that has
(00:40):
been developed and the friendships that have been developed have
just been really sweet. Today is our last day to
do Perry and Shawna mornings, and with a little help
from ChatGPT, I have written an ode to Ben. Nice.
Give that man a mic. Are you ready, Ben?
S3 (00:57):
I am, let's hear it.
S2 (00:59):
Okay. From television's Bright Array to radio's mic, you came
our way. A critic keen with watchful eye on earthly flaws.
You would testify. But sports are. Yes, they are your heart.
The Tigers wins right from the start. The Wolverines might
(01:19):
you loudly cheer. And Griffin's goals bring happy cheer on
grassy fields. With clubs in hand. You conquer golf across
the land. Your swing is strong. Your putts are true
a master's touch. See what I did there?
S3 (01:34):
I did.
S2 (01:34):
We see in you numbers dance within your brain A
whiz with figures. Sun or rain. And share events you
hold so dear. For helping others far and near. Free
pizza calls. You never miss a slice of joy. Pure happiness.
The board you run with steady hand when duty calls
(01:57):
across the land And for journeys far. A prayer you
send for safety's grace. A faithful friend. So here's to you,
our colleague and friend. A sportsman, true in our command.
S3 (02:10):
Wow.
S4 (02:11):
All right. Hey.
S3 (02:13):
Not so sure about the putts being true all the time.
S4 (02:15):
But.
S3 (02:17):
That could be a struggle.
S2 (02:18):
I just want to thank you for. For who you
are and for what you have brought to the team.
And just the joy to be able to be alongside
you in ministry. And I truly do feel like I
have come to know you best when I hear you pray.
And I love it.
S3 (02:37):
Well, I love the care that you took to write
an ode, to have ChatGPT write an ode. I appreciate
you Seana, for your heart and love you.
S4 (02:50):
Yeah man. Let's have Ben pray. We'll hear his heart.
Once in a while. I have a God dream. It's rare,
but it happens. God speaks to me through a dream.
I shared this story yesterday, but now there's more to it.
(03:12):
But first, what I shared yesterday. Teresa and I were
in Venice and I had a dream. I know it
was from the Lord and my mom, who's now with Jesus,
was in the dream. And I came out of that
dream crying. And I went into the bathroom and I
put my head against the wall and I just cried.
I had seen my mom, whom I missed so much,
(03:34):
and she was saying, just love, just love. That was
her message.
S2 (03:41):
That sounds like your mom, right? I mean, that's so
true to who she is.
S4 (03:46):
It was just it was special and. Yeah, just wept.
But my dad was in the dream as well. And
the strange thing about the dad, part of my dream
is that my dad's still here. He's one of my
best friends. But I dreamt that he was a young
man and that he was fretting and anxious about his future.
(04:08):
Maybe even some despair about his future. Just wondering, do
I have a future? And I said to him, as
the grown up me dad, God is going to do
amazing things through your life. God has so many good
things in store for you. You have a hope and
a future. And because of the resurrection and the new
(04:28):
heavens and the new earth, the best is yet to come.
And I didn't know why I had that dream of
preaching hope to my to the younger version of my
dad until yesterday.
S2 (04:42):
I have to interject right here. I just have to.
Earlier today, you might not have been listening, but Perry
was sharing with us a note that he woke up
to from his son, a note of encouragement to his dad.
And now you're telling me this story about a time
that you were encouraging your dad, and I just. I
(05:05):
am overwhelmed by how what your dad passed on to you,
and you blessed him with you, passed on to Taylor,
and Taylor. Blessed you with. And Taylor is expecting a boy.
I just believe that that boy, at some point in time,
is going to be doing the same thing. Blessing and encouraging. Taylor,
what a beautiful legacy to pass on.
S4 (05:27):
Yeah. Praise God for the work he's done in our family.
But that's another story if we went into that. But yeah,
it's going to be so fun being a part of
discipling my grandson and my granddaughter.
S2 (05:41):
Absolutely.
S4 (05:42):
So I didn't know why I had that dream of
preaching hope to the younger version of my dad, as
I mentioned till yesterday, because right after the show yesterday,
my dad called and we were just talking about him
getting a new phone. We want to get him a smartphone,
and he's smart, but he needs a smartphone. But before
(06:03):
we hung up, he said, Perry, thanks for sharing that
story about your dream. And then he started to cry
because the 86 year old version of my dad needed
to hear those words of hope yesterday. There's a hope
and a future for him. So get this I had
a dream in Venice giving hope to the younger version
(06:26):
of my dad. I had no idea why I would
have a dream like that. Why I would need to
tell the younger version of my dad those words. In fact,
when we return from Europe, I told my dad about
that dream and he was just as puzzled by it
as me. But yesterday, yesterday, at the moment, my dad
(06:46):
needed hope. He was listening to the show. And as
I shared the words of hope from my dream to
his younger self, herself. It was precisely what his right
now 86 year old self needed to hear. Now who
can do that?
S5 (07:02):
I don't know who can put. God can do that.
S4 (07:04):
That's what I'm saying. Who could put all those pieces together?
S2 (07:09):
One of the another piece of the puzzle that I
absolutely love is just the fact that God is not contained.
He knows us so fully that he's not limited to
seeing us in the moment that we're sitting in right now, though,
he fully gets what we're sitting in right now. He
sees all of us. He sees us from the beginning
of time to who our redeemed self is going to be.
S4 (07:30):
Mhm. Yeah. It was God really working outside of time.
But he knew that in giving me that dream that
it would bring hope to my dad yesterday. So so cool.
And I have this sense that you need words of
hope right now. So here they are. Let me share
(07:52):
some hope. Jeremiah 2911 God says, I know you don't,
but I know the plans I have for you, plans
to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to
give you hope and a future. And then Isaiah 4216 says,
(08:13):
I will lead the blind by ways they have not
known along unfamiliar paths. I will guide them. I will
turn the darkness into light before them and make the
rough places smooth. These are the things I will do
for you. I will not forsake you. Getting some hope
from that. Sean, are you getting some hope from that?
S2 (08:34):
That is exactly what we need to hear today. God's.
God's got us. He's just got us. He's got you
in the palm of his hand. In the moments when
you know it and you feel his grip on your life,
the sureness of those moments, he's got you just as well.
In the moments when you feel like you're falling and
(08:58):
you need something to grab onto and grab hold of.
He has us, then he has you. Then, as much
as he does. When you know that, you know that
you know it.
S4 (09:08):
Yeah. When you're kind of swallowed up by feelings of despair.
He's got you. Then that's what I hear you saying. Jonah.
And then Isaiah 43, 18 and 19. Forget the former things.
Do not dwell on the past. See, I'm doing a
new thing now. It springs up. I am making a
(09:31):
way in the desert and streams in the wasteland. Do
you not perceive it? I am doing a new thing.
S2 (09:44):
Man, at the end of the day, I want to be.
I want to be as faithful as God is faithful,
and there are people in our lives who model just
kind of different characteristics of God's heart for us. We
we see it in their lives. Maybe they're not, you know,
shouting it all the time, but it's just evident, like
pieces of the father, like we're chips off the old block,
(10:07):
literally made in his image. And I have seen just
an incredible quiet faithfulness without fanfare and doing what needed
to be done. In our dear friend Scott, there was
a day that Scott and I were doing the show together,
and it was just the two of us in studio,
(10:29):
which is was super unusual, but would happen from time
to time. And Scott was at the board. He was
just about to do the weather and Scott always did
the show standing. The rest of us, you know, slackers
were pretty much sitting down, but Scott standing at his
mic and he's doing the weather. And right before the
mics went hot and we went on the air, he said, hey,
I'm not feeling so good. Just kind of gave me
(10:50):
a little bit of a heads up. I was like, okay,
you know, we didn't even have time to like, unpack that.
So the mics go hot and he he starts to
do the weather and then I see him kind of
start to like, oh, you know, he's like swaying back
and forth a little bit. And I was like, oh no.
S4 (11:07):
He's going.
S5 (11:07):
Down. He goes.
S2 (11:08):
Down, he goes down like, no joke. I was worried
about him. I think I yelled at him. I told him,
sit down while we were live on the air, because
I was afraid he was going to hurt himself. But yeah,
he went down from standing and it was not good.
And he was out and he was out cold. And
you know, Shawna over here, like we've gone back and
forth on whether or not I should learn the board.
(11:29):
And it was decided we had some, you know, wisdom
from somebody on the outside who said, Shawna doesn't need
to learn the board, just be on mic and talk.
So there's Scott laying on the ground, and I don't
know how to do the board because nobody ever taught me.
So I run over to him and I'm down on
my knees. We're still on the air and I just
(11:50):
start praying over him. And so and then I said
a little bit louder so that the mics would catch it,
but I was like, somebody call 911, which don't do
that right now. If you're hearing me say that I'm not.
S5 (12:00):
Right, right.
S4 (12:01):
Don't do that.
S2 (12:02):
But at the time I was and y'all are amazing
because you responded. You did. You called 911, and we
had just about every emergency vehicle coming to the station
that you can imagine.
S4 (12:15):
I think that they were overloaded at 911. They had
just so many calls that came in, they just couldn't
really handle all the calls.
S2 (12:25):
Yeah. For real. They thought maybe some something, you know,
some large horrific event.
S5 (12:31):
Had happened.
S2 (12:31):
In a cornfield in Zeeland where the station exists because
all these vehicles are flooding in. Anyway, Scott's he's out for,
you know, I don't know, seconds, not probably even a
full minute. He's down there on the ground, but he
comes to and he says, hit the next button.
S5 (12:49):
So first.
S2 (12:50):
Thing out of his.
S5 (12:51):
Mouth. So you have to.
S2 (12:53):
Know it's not like.
S5 (12:54):
There's two.
S2 (12:55):
And I'm trying to figure out which one is the
next button. There's like how many buttons on that board?
S5 (12:59):
Bear dog.
S4 (12:59):
Oh, man. There's probably a hundred. Probably a hundred or more.
S2 (13:04):
The next button, literally. I believe the Holy Spirit took
my finger and put it on the next button so
we could play a song and get things figured out.
And we got Scott. Well, and he was he was fine.
He actually finished out the show at one point. We're
doing the show and he had like EMT taking his
blood pressure. Well, they've got his arm and he's he's
on Mike and he's doing the show. He's just he
(13:26):
faithfully does what needs to be done. And he did
that for years. And I've got another Scott story. Can
I tell you another one.
S4 (13:35):
Go.
S2 (13:36):
All right. This is this is a good one too.
I mean, that was a good one. You gotta admit
that was a good one. But this is a good one, too.
So I think I was maybe a year and a
half Off into the mornings when I had to have
foot surgery. And I'm telling you, that thing was no joke.
I was on a knee scooter for I was on
(13:56):
a scooter for three months and then had like another
month of just not on the scooter, but still in
the boot.
S4 (14:02):
I love that knee scooter. I mean.
S5 (14:05):
I know you did.
S4 (14:05):
I'm glad you're better, but I still wish you would
have kept bringing it in because I was up and
down this hallway. It was so fun, man. That was
one of the best times in my life.
S5 (14:16):
I know.
S2 (14:17):
I know, I would be I would be, like, leaning
back in my seat with my leg propped up on
the desk because I needed to elevate it because of
pain and all and swelling and all that anyway. And
Perry's taking my scooter to go to the bathroom, zoomed
down the.
S5 (14:31):
Hall.
S2 (14:32):
Good times. But during that time, knee scooter time. It
happened to be winter and Scott has been working at
the station forever. So the best parking spot is Scott's
spot man. Like he he.
S5 (14:44):
Deserves that.
S2 (14:45):
Spot. That was his spot. He could park wherever he
wanted to. There wasn't even any car in the lot
for a while while he was here. But the first
day that I showed up after my surgery, I was
a little nervous. I didn't know how I was going
to get in on that knee scooter with snow on
the ground, you know. And my work bag on my
shoulder and all the things. But I pull up into
the parking lot and the one place that Scott's car
(15:07):
always was, and he was always the first person there
was not in its usual spot, because Scott thought that
that would be the best place for me to be
able to park and be able to get into the studio.
Here's the thing. He didn't make a big deal about it.
He never said, you know what, Shauna? I thought it'd
be better for you if you parked in my spot.
I mean, he never said. He never said anything about it.
(15:29):
He just did it. And I think it's such a
picture of who Scott is. You know, he doesn't go
out of the way to get credit. He just quietly, humbly,
sacrificially gives of himself for the benefit of others. And
that's that's a model for all of us in a
way that we can be more like God, in a
(15:51):
way that we can bear the image of our father.
Thank you. Scott. Sometimes all you need to step into
your God given destiny is someone who believes in you.
It was the summer of 2018 and I had just
arrived at my job. I was on staff at church
at that time. I was working part time, and I
(16:12):
got a phone call from station manager of 89.3 Moody Radio,
Grand Rapids Jack Haveman, and he starts explaining to me
that he was looking for a new morning show host,
and a mutual friend of ours had given him my name.
I quickly explained how unqualified I was for this role.
I mean.
S5 (16:32):
Like.
S2 (16:33):
Bullet points, the line by line, like I don't have
a college degree, I have no experience on radio, but
I have I have seen God like connect people in really, really,
really wonderful ways. And so I thought maybe God connected
me to Jack so that I could help connect him
with the person that he's looking for, for the job.
(16:54):
And he wasn't having it. He wasn't having any of it.
About 20 minutes into that phone call, we're wrapping up
and he just said, just, just promise me you'll pray
about it. Just tell me that you'll pray about it.
And I was like, yeah, of course I'm going to
pray about it. And as I continued to pray into
the position and Jack continued to encourage me and we
(17:16):
kept having conversations, I could see God was doing something like,
this was bigger than Jack, this was bigger than me.
This was God on the move.
S4 (17:25):
Jack, do you remember that conversation? Oh, yeah. And her
trying to get out of it. Oh, yeah. So why
did you why did you believe so much in Shauna?
S6 (17:34):
I sensed, and I'm sure it was through the Holy
Spirit that she was the one that I was looking for.
S4 (17:41):
Was it the halo?
S6 (17:42):
It was the halo.
S5 (17:43):
Okay, that was part of it.
S6 (17:45):
No. It was. I just was not going to say
no to her. And she just kept throwing all these
things up. And I said, yeah, I know. You know,
I don't have this. I don't have this, I don't
have this. I said, yeah, but what you do have
is this. And there was this, um, understanding, I think,
(18:06):
that developed shortly thereafter, especially when she said, okay, I'll
be praying about it. And I don't know exactly. Shauna,
what happened when you were starting to pray about it?
What were what was your prayer like?
S2 (18:18):
You know, it's it's very interesting because it's kind of
a full circle moment as Perry and Shauna morning's comes
to a land I am, I found myself praying the
same prayer again. And it's just may it be to me,
as you have said, like whatever you have for this
is scary as heck. And I would run for the
(18:39):
hills if it was totally up to me. But if
it's you, Lord, I'll do it.
S6 (18:47):
Yeah.
S4 (18:48):
Here I am, Lord. It's that surrender.
S5 (18:52):
Right?
S6 (18:53):
For me personally, it was one of the finest times. Well,
you were part of the process, too, Perry. I mean,
it wasn't like, you know, when we started interviewing her
and so on and so forth. And, Shawna, I don't
want to make you feel uncomfortable here, but we had
about 12. I think there were 12 other women that
(19:13):
we were looking at. As I recall. She set the
bar so high it was like, where else are we going?
It was so clear to us.
S4 (19:23):
Yeah, it was it was a God thing, as they say.
I don't think anybody's ever used that phrase before, a
God thing.
S6 (19:29):
No.
S5 (19:30):
Coming up with something that. I think.
S6 (19:31):
That's good.
S5 (19:32):
Yeah.
S4 (19:32):
Go ahead.
S5 (19:32):
Shawna. That's good.
S2 (19:34):
Here's the thing, Jack. Thank you for those incredibly kind words.
But Jack didn't give a rip. He didn't care that
I didn't have a degree, and I didn't have the
experience that was needed and neither did God. God didn't
care that I didn't have the degree and I didn't
have any broadcasting experience. He had a plan for me,
and it was a plan that so far exceeded what
I could even think or imagine. And all I needed really,
(19:59):
to step into my God given destiny was someone who
believed in me, and Jack. Was that someone?
S6 (20:04):
So here's the thing that I think really showed that
the Holy Spirit was in it. The only thing that
I had from you to see anything, what you might
sound like or whatever. I had this little snippet and
you were doing announcements in front of your church. That's
all I had. That's all. That's all I knew. But
(20:24):
I said, this is her. I just sensed it. It
was at that point I said, okay, Lord, let's let's
move ahead. And that's what happened.
S2 (20:34):
Well, thank you, Jack. Thank you for taking a chance on,
you know, a mom from Middleville who had never stepped
foot inside a radio station before.
S6 (20:48):
It was a great decision and I'm so thankful.
S2 (20:51):
So now I want to. I just want to turn
it to you. I don't know how you disqualify yourself,
but I want you to know that I believe in you.
That God, the God who placed the sun and the
moon in the sky with such great intentionality, has got
good intentions for your life, and they are not for
(21:12):
you to play small, but for you to take bold
risks for the kingdom of God, and to do things
that you never thought you could do. Risk is just obedience.
That doesn't make sense yet. I heard that this week
at the conference. Risk is just your obedience to God
that you haven't figured out yet, but he is working
out a good plan for your life. And so instead
(21:33):
of trying to figure out what doesn't make sense to you,
start asking the question, God, is this you? Is this
you doing this right now? And if it is, do
it not for your glory, but for his. I believe in.
S5 (21:52):
You.
S4 (21:57):
He was a straight up, strong atheist and he was dying.
He was getting ready to draw his final breath and
he was looking forward to nothing, experiencing absolutely nothing after
he drew his final breath. Talk about Howard Storms near-death experience.
S7 (22:18):
So he's one of the sort of, you know, big
hero stories in the film, because I would say he
probably had the biggest, uh, transition or change in his life.
So he was an atheist university professor. And I think
at that time it was decades into that worldview. There's
absolutely nothing. And, you know, there's kind of a spectrum
of atheist thought, but his is there's absolutely nothing. He
(22:39):
was confident in that. So much so that when he
took his last breath, he assumed that there would be
nothing after. And so, to his surprise, you know, his
his consciousness continues on and he's standing in the room
feeling better than he's ever felt in his entire life.
And he sees his body on the bed. He doesn't
know what to really make of that. He doesn't really
want to think about that. He tries to talk to
(23:00):
his wife who isn't responding to him. And there's these
people in the hallway who are calling his name, and
he assumes that they're, you know, medical professionals, that they're
going to take him to a surgery room and help him.
He had a perforation in his stomach. And he basically
he was, uh, the insides of his stomach was bleeding
and it was digesting himself from the inside. It was
very painful. Uh, but it was difficult to continue breathing.
(23:23):
So that's when he went unconscious. And he has this
continued experience which eventually turned into actually a hellish experience.
But during that period where he's in this absolute darkness,
he's offered up this memory of himself as a child,
going to Sunday school, and I think it was once
or twice in his entire life when he was 5
or 6 years old. And he, uh, and he's taught
(23:45):
this very simple song, you know, Jesus loves me, this
I know. That's it. And he's wondering why. Why he's
remembering that. And he he hears this voice. Tell him
to pray. He doesn't even know what that is. You know,
he doesn't exercise any kind of prayer life. He doesn't.
He hasn't read the Bible. He has no clue what
the context is for that. So he doesn't have words.
He hears the voice. The same voice two different times. Pray, Howard. Pray.
(24:09):
So he tries, you know, uh, God bless America. Anything
that kind of came to mind. But when he started,
you know, saying these things, these creatures that are around
him physically distance themselves and yet got louder and more
sort of vulgar, more angry, but they physically were distancing themselves.
And all of a sudden he calls out for Jesus
to save him. And this man of light comes and
(24:32):
enters this dark area and pulls him out. And he says,
like this place he was in was sort of like
the void it was the inverse of light. It was.
It wasn't like a starless night or a moonless night. Uh,
it wasn't like being in a room with the lights off. It's.
It's the inverse of light. So it's complete darkness that
we can't experience here on Earth is how he describes it.
(24:53):
And all of a sudden, this man pulls him up and, uh,
comes and rescues him out of this place, and he's
bringing him towards what he said he figured was heaven.
So his world made of light. And, uh, he says
that you're making a terrible mistake. That's what I chose.
This is what I wanted. Jesus says we don't make mistakes.
You do belong here.
S4 (25:14):
That was his way of saying I chose atheism. I'm
not worthy, you know, send me back to that dark place.
S7 (25:22):
I mean, he just says that that's what he chose.
That's what he. That's actually what he wanted. So he
was given this sort of grace to call out that
name in this place of sort of where he's in between. Right. He's, he's,
he's in this dying state and he and he's on
his way there, and he's just given this sort of
last opportunity to call out. Howard has a total life change.
(25:42):
When he comes back, he realizes his life has purpose.
He has meaning. You know, there's a reason why he's here.
And so, uh, he actually left that position because he
found it too difficult to continue in the university, and
he became a minister. He took a 90% pay cut.
And he's still to this day a minister, which, you know,
that's a huge change going from an atheist to a pastor.
S4 (26:06):
Steven Gray is the director of After Death, a feature
film that dives into what happens after we die, drawing
content from near-death experiences through the eyes of scientists and survivors.
So when he was rescued by Jesus, did he want
to stay with Jesus, or was he still like, no,
I still want to go my own way. I want
(26:28):
to be an atheist.
S7 (26:29):
No. Yeah, he wanted to stay. No, he but he
was told he had to go back, and there was
a reason for him to go back. And one of
the one of the things he was told that he
had to do was he has to love the people
he's with. And so Howard thought that was too simplistic, that,
you know, that's not a it's not difficult. You know,
what else do you want me to do? And Jesus says, no, no, no.
(26:49):
I want you just to love the people you're with.
That's going to change the world. You know, Howard later
came back and realized, actually, you know, loving people is
one of the hardest things he says to me. You know,
loving someone who loves you back is easy. Loving someone
who hates you or doesn't love you back, that's hard.
S2 (27:13):
We can't do this life on our own. My friend
Marty owns a restaurant in Sun City West, and after
he opened up the restaurant, he realized pretty quickly that
customers would come in every single day. You know, they
have their regulars, but they'd come in for breakfast and
they'd order a slice of toast and a cup of tea,
and he's like, okay, if they can get themselves up
in the morning and find their way to the restaurant,
(27:34):
they're definitely capable of making themselves a slice of toast
and a cup of tea. So he just started asking himself,
why are they coming here and paying me to make
their tea and toast them up a slice of bread.
And he realized that it was because they're someone says,
good morning, how are you today? Because they're not alone.
(27:57):
And we weren't meant to do life alone. We need
each other. So Marty had this brilliant idea. He arranged
his restaurant in such a way that he created this
long community table right down the middle of the restaurant
so that he could pull up a chair for anybody
at any time, and they could sit together in community.
Party of one became a party.
S4 (28:20):
Yeah. You know, I've gone into restaurants and that's usually
the old guys table. One long table with all the
old guys shooting the breeze.
S2 (28:30):
I just love it. I love that God led him
to do that. His restaurant is definitely his ministry, but
God led him to do that, and he just created
a way to pull up a seat at the table
so that we could do life together. And I love
that so much. And I, I feel like you have
done that for me. You have pulled out a chair
(28:52):
for me and Perry and Ben and Dodd and Scott
and Jack to be at your breakfast table. I just
want to thank you so much for letting us join
you there or, you know, shotgun on the commute to
work each day. And I just want to thank you
for allowing us to to be at the table and
to be with you to start the day together. Thank
(29:13):
you for praying for us.
S4 (29:16):
Thanks for the bagels and honey. Thanks for the oatmeal.
Grateful for it.
S2 (29:21):
And thanks for entrusting us with the stuff that's on
your heart. You guys have reached out and been so
just vulnerable and authentic with us as we've journeyed and
questioned God. Maybe shaking our fists at him from time
to time and fell, you know, with our face into
his lap, and just let him minister to us and
(29:43):
love on us. And I want you to know, I
guess this is kind of like, okay, like my kids
heading off for the, you know, heading off. And I
just like, I've got to tell you this one last time.
So I just need to tell you one last time.
God loves you. He really, really loves you. And his
plans for you are so incredibly good. Keep trusting him
and keep falling in love with him. I do believe
(30:04):
that Carl and crew are going to help you to
do that in the morning, and I get to help
you do that middays. I'm looking forward to those moments
with you being with you from 10 to 3 starting
on June 30th. And so we'll continue to grow in
that way together. But thank you for pulling out a
chair and letting us be at the table with you.
(30:25):
And as you step into your day, I'm just asking
that today in particular, every day from here on out,
but today in particular, can you live your faith out
loud in such a way that West Michigan knows that
you love Jesus, and that his family is a place
where they belong, and just pull out a chair just
like you did for us, pull out a chair for
(30:47):
somebody else and do life together with them, with God,
and with one another.
S4 (30:57):
Endings are hard, but here's what I've learned through the
endings in my life. The unexpected endings is that an
end always leads to a new beginning. And so Perry
and Shawna coming to an end. But that means a
new beginning. Endings are hard. They're sad. You grieve them.
(31:21):
But God opens doors. God does new things. He says.
Forget the former things. Do not dwell on the past. See,
I'm doing a new thing. God's doing a new thing
in our lives. God's doing a new thing in your life.
And so the future is bright. The best is yet
to come. Because as believers, we have the greatest hope ever.
(31:42):
We have the hope of Jesus Christ coming again to
make all the sad things come untrue. So we truly
can say we are the people of hope and the
best is yet to come. And I'm excited about not
just that, but the future that God has for me,
for Shawna, for Ben, for DoD and for you.
S2 (32:04):
Mhm. God finishes what he started. He's going to complete
the good work in you. And I just have to say,
I remember walking into the studio for my interview and
there was this tall, lanky guy who just pelted me
with questions about Star Wars and Harry Potter. And I
was like, is this a Christian radio interview? I think
(32:24):
I stumbled into the wrong station, and I am just
so grateful that you allowed me to have a seat
at the table and taught me everything I needed to know,
imparted your great radio wisdom to me. Thank you for
all the times that you gave me such a hard time.
And you drove me crazy. And I literally had to
find something to keep near my mic that I could
(32:46):
throw at you on the regular. Like a big brother
just asking me. I know it was. I know it
was all out of love and all the moments that. Gosh,
I remember so specifically Perry a day. Something was going
on with one of my kids, and I was I
was like, I just don't know how this is going
to go down. And I was, you know, freaking out.
(33:07):
And that is when you spoke those words I will
never forget. Shawna, don't freak out. And it was exactly
what I needed to hear. It was like so simple
and so straightforward. And it just it pierced through my
little anxiety attack and calmed my heart. And of course,
you spoke all kinds of beautiful words and encouragement and
(33:30):
blessing and scripture over me after that. And you've prayed
for me and just want to thank you for refining
me and strengthening me. You've done it for me. You've
done it for thousands. But for me specifically, it's been
six years, seven months, three hours a day, five days
a week. And I'm different. And I'm better for having
(33:50):
known you and having done this with you. So thank
you so much.
S4 (33:54):
Yeah, right back at you. You know, I was pelting
you with those questions about culture. I wanted to know
how pop culture aware you were, and I.
S2 (34:05):
Failed. I failed miserably on that test.
S4 (34:08):
But we did do Sean, and I did a, like,
a mock interview where we went back and forth and, man,
Shauna just kind of pinned me to the wall with
her questions. You were intense. I said, what's going on here?
I'm supposed to be, you know, interviewing Shauna, and she's
pinning me to the wall with questions. And, you know,
it was really clear. It was really clear when you
(34:30):
came in that that you had God had already prepared
you through all of. It's kind of like The Karate Kid.
I've mentioned this a lot of times where wax on,
wax off, he doesn't realize he's actually preparing to be
a karate person, the Karate Kid. And and you had
so many wax on, wax off experiences in your life
that led up to you being ready to do Christian radio?
(34:53):
You just had to figure out how to do what
you were doing so well. You just had to figure
out how to do that on the radio. So it
was really easy. You know, just giving you tips here
and there. And, and I know some of those were unwanted.
S2 (35:10):
And I learned anyway. Yeah. It's just it's been an
absolute joy. And I'm, I am so convinced because I
just have seen God work this way time and time again,
that when okay, here I'm going to paint a picture
for you because this is what I do, right? Like
a trapeze artist when they've got Ahold of the bar
and they're swinging and they go from one bar to
(35:31):
the next. If they don't let go of the bar
that brought them to where they are, they can't go forward.
They just hang stuck in the air. And so there
is a point where we grab on to what is next,
and there's a point where we let go of what
has been. And that is the point when God propels
us into the future. And that's what he's got for
(35:55):
all of us.
S4 (35:56):
Yeah, that's what we're doing right now. That's where we're
at right now. We are letting go of that bar,
and there's that scary place in the middle where you're
not holding on to either side, but you're going to
grab that next bar. And so here it is Jeremiah
33 three. How can we not end Perry and Shawna
(36:21):
without Jeremiah 33 three? How could we not? I ask
you call on me? The Lord says, call on me,
and I will show you great and unsearchable things which
you do not know.
S2 (36:38):
God loves you so, so much. And it's not just
like a blanket theology. It's a personal, radical, relational love.
He's with you right now. He's going to be with
you every moment of every day, loving on you so perfectly.
And his plans for you are absolutely amazing. Thanks for
(36:59):
giving us some of this time. It's been amazing.
S4 (37:02):
Let's go.
S1 (37:05):
Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life
journey with you. The content from the podcast comes from
their live show Barry and Shana Mornings on 89.3 Moody Radio,
Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to us by texting 800
968 8930 and please subscribe.
It's the Perry and Shawna podcast on the real life
journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved
child and that Jesus has called you into his massive
mission to heal the world.
S2 (00:17):
I don't know if you've ever had, like, a favorite
TV show, maybe the cast of friends or some other
TV show. Over time, you spend time with these characters
and they kind of become part of the family. They
become endearing. There are things about them that you just
come to know and love. Well, that's kind of been
a little bit what it's been like to do Perry
and Shawna mornings together. The cast of characters that has
(00:40):
been developed and the friendships that have been developed have
just been really sweet. Today is our last day to
do Perry and Shawna mornings, and with a little help
from ChatGPT, I have written an ode to Ben. Nice.
Give that man a mic. Are you ready, Ben?
S3 (00:57):
I am, let's hear it.
S2 (00:59):
Okay. From television's Bright Array to radio's mic, you came
our way. A critic keen with watchful eye on earthly flaws.
You would testify. But sports are. Yes, they are your heart.
The Tigers wins right from the start. The Wolverines might
(01:19):
you loudly cheer. And Griffin's goals bring happy cheer on
grassy fields. With clubs in hand. You conquer golf across
the land. Your swing is strong. Your putts are true
a master's touch. See what I did there?
S3 (01:34):
I did.
S2 (01:34):
We see in you numbers dance within your brain A
whiz with figures. Sun or rain. And share events you
hold so dear. For helping others far and near. Free
pizza calls. You never miss a slice of joy. Pure happiness.
The board you run with steady hand when duty calls
(01:57):
across the land And for journeys far. A prayer you
send for safety's grace. A faithful friend. So here's to you,
our colleague and friend. A sportsman, true in our command.
S3 (02:10):
Wow.
S4 (02:11):
All right. Hey.
S3 (02:13):
Not so sure about the putts being true all the time.
S4 (02:15):
But.
S3 (02:17):
That could be a struggle.
S2 (02:18):
I just want to thank you for. For who you
are and for what you have brought to the team.
And just the joy to be able to be alongside
you in ministry. And I truly do feel like I
have come to know you best when I hear you pray.
And I love it.
S3 (02:37):
Well, I love the care that you took to write
an ode, to have ChatGPT write an ode. I appreciate
you Seana, for your heart and love you.
S4 (02:50):
Yeah man. Let's have Ben pray. We'll hear his heart.
Once in a while. I have a God dream. It's rare,
but it happens. God speaks to me through a dream.
I shared this story yesterday, but now there's more to it.
(03:12):
But first, what I shared yesterday. Teresa and I were
in Venice and I had a dream. I know it
was from the Lord and my mom, who's now with Jesus,
was in the dream. And I came out of that
dream crying. And I went into the bathroom and I
put my head against the wall and I just cried.
I had seen my mom, whom I missed so much,
(03:34):
and she was saying, just love, just love. That was
her message.
S2 (03:41):
That sounds like your mom, right? I mean, that's so
true to who she is.
S4 (03:46):
It was just it was special and. Yeah, just wept.
But my dad was in the dream as well. And
the strange thing about the dad, part of my dream
is that my dad's still here. He's one of my
best friends. But I dreamt that he was a young
man and that he was fretting and anxious about his future.
(04:08):
Maybe even some despair about his future. Just wondering, do
I have a future? And I said to him, as
the grown up me dad, God is going to do
amazing things through your life. God has so many good
things in store for you. You have a hope and
a future. And because of the resurrection and the new
(04:28):
heavens and the new earth, the best is yet to come.
And I didn't know why I had that dream of
preaching hope to my to the younger version of my
dad until yesterday.
S2 (04:42):
I have to interject right here. I just have to.
Earlier today, you might not have been listening, but Perry
was sharing with us a note that he woke up
to from his son, a note of encouragement to his dad.
And now you're telling me this story about a time
that you were encouraging your dad, and I just. I
(05:05):
am overwhelmed by how what your dad passed on to you,
and you blessed him with you, passed on to Taylor,
and Taylor. Blessed you with. And Taylor is expecting a boy.
I just believe that that boy, at some point in time,
is going to be doing the same thing. Blessing and encouraging. Taylor,
what a beautiful legacy to pass on.
S4 (05:27):
Yeah. Praise God for the work he's done in our family.
But that's another story if we went into that. But yeah,
it's going to be so fun being a part of
discipling my grandson and my granddaughter.
S2 (05:41):
Absolutely.
S4 (05:42):
So I didn't know why I had that dream of
preaching hope to the younger version of my dad, as
I mentioned till yesterday, because right after the show yesterday,
my dad called and we were just talking about him
getting a new phone. We want to get him a smartphone,
and he's smart, but he needs a smartphone. But before
(06:03):
we hung up, he said, Perry, thanks for sharing that
story about your dream. And then he started to cry
because the 86 year old version of my dad needed
to hear those words of hope yesterday. There's a hope
and a future for him. So get this I had
a dream in Venice giving hope to the younger version
(06:26):
of my dad. I had no idea why I would
have a dream like that. Why I would need to
tell the younger version of my dad those words. In fact,
when we return from Europe, I told my dad about
that dream and he was just as puzzled by it
as me. But yesterday, yesterday, at the moment, my dad
(06:46):
needed hope. He was listening to the show. And as
I shared the words of hope from my dream to
his younger self, herself. It was precisely what his right
now 86 year old self needed to hear. Now who
can do that?
S5 (07:02):
I don't know who can put. God can do that.
S4 (07:04):
That's what I'm saying. Who could put all those pieces together?
S2 (07:09):
One of the another piece of the puzzle that I
absolutely love is just the fact that God is not contained.
He knows us so fully that he's not limited to
seeing us in the moment that we're sitting in right now, though,
he fully gets what we're sitting in right now. He
sees all of us. He sees us from the beginning
of time to who our redeemed self is going to be.
S4 (07:30):
Mhm. Yeah. It was God really working outside of time.
But he knew that in giving me that dream that
it would bring hope to my dad yesterday. So so cool.
And I have this sense that you need words of
hope right now. So here they are. Let me share
(07:52):
some hope. Jeremiah 2911 God says, I know you don't,
but I know the plans I have for you, plans
to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to
give you hope and a future. And then Isaiah 4216 says,
(08:13):
I will lead the blind by ways they have not
known along unfamiliar paths. I will guide them. I will
turn the darkness into light before them and make the
rough places smooth. These are the things I will do
for you. I will not forsake you. Getting some hope
from that. Sean, are you getting some hope from that?
S2 (08:34):
That is exactly what we need to hear today. God's.
God's got us. He's just got us. He's got you
in the palm of his hand. In the moments when
you know it and you feel his grip on your life,
the sureness of those moments, he's got you just as well.
In the moments when you feel like you're falling and
(08:58):
you need something to grab onto and grab hold of.
He has us, then he has you. Then, as much
as he does. When you know that, you know that
you know it.
S4 (09:08):
Yeah. When you're kind of swallowed up by feelings of despair.
He's got you. Then that's what I hear you saying. Jonah.
And then Isaiah 43, 18 and 19. Forget the former things.
Do not dwell on the past. See, I'm doing a
new thing now. It springs up. I am making a
(09:31):
way in the desert and streams in the wasteland. Do
you not perceive it? I am doing a new thing.
S2 (09:44):
Man, at the end of the day, I want to be.
I want to be as faithful as God is faithful,
and there are people in our lives who model just
kind of different characteristics of God's heart for us. We
we see it in their lives. Maybe they're not, you know,
shouting it all the time, but it's just evident, like
pieces of the father, like we're chips off the old block,
(10:07):
literally made in his image. And I have seen just
an incredible quiet faithfulness without fanfare and doing what needed
to be done. In our dear friend Scott, there was
a day that Scott and I were doing the show together,
and it was just the two of us in studio,
(10:29):
which is was super unusual, but would happen from time
to time. And Scott was at the board. He was
just about to do the weather and Scott always did
the show standing. The rest of us, you know, slackers
were pretty much sitting down, but Scott standing at his
mic and he's doing the weather. And right before the
mics went hot and we went on the air, he said, hey,
I'm not feeling so good. Just kind of gave me
(10:50):
a little bit of a heads up. I was like, okay,
you know, we didn't even have time to like, unpack that.
So the mics go hot and he he starts to
do the weather and then I see him kind of
start to like, oh, you know, he's like swaying back
and forth a little bit. And I was like, oh no.
S4 (11:07):
He's going.
S5 (11:07):
Down. He goes.
S2 (11:08):
Down, he goes down like, no joke. I was worried
about him. I think I yelled at him. I told him,
sit down while we were live on the air, because
I was afraid he was going to hurt himself. But yeah,
he went down from standing and it was not good.
And he was out and he was out cold. And
you know, Shawna over here, like we've gone back and
forth on whether or not I should learn the board.
(11:29):
And it was decided we had some, you know, wisdom
from somebody on the outside who said, Shawna doesn't need
to learn the board, just be on mic and talk.
So there's Scott laying on the ground, and I don't
know how to do the board because nobody ever taught me.
So I run over to him and I'm down on
my knees. We're still on the air and I just
(11:50):
start praying over him. And so and then I said
a little bit louder so that the mics would catch it,
but I was like, somebody call 911, which don't do
that right now. If you're hearing me say that I'm not.
S5 (12:00):
Right, right.
S4 (12:01):
Don't do that.
S2 (12:02):
But at the time I was and y'all are amazing
because you responded. You did. You called 911, and we
had just about every emergency vehicle coming to the station
that you can imagine.
S4 (12:15):
I think that they were overloaded at 911. They had
just so many calls that came in, they just couldn't
really handle all the calls.
S2 (12:25):
Yeah. For real. They thought maybe some something, you know,
some large horrific event.
S5 (12:31):
Had happened.
S2 (12:31):
In a cornfield in Zeeland where the station exists because
all these vehicles are flooding in. Anyway, Scott's he's out for,
you know, I don't know, seconds, not probably even a
full minute. He's down there on the ground, but he
comes to and he says, hit the next button.
S5 (12:49):
So first.
S2 (12:50):
Thing out of his.
S5 (12:51):
Mouth. So you have to.
S2 (12:53):
Know it's not like.
S5 (12:54):
There's two.
S2 (12:55):
And I'm trying to figure out which one is the
next button. There's like how many buttons on that board?
S5 (12:59):
Bear dog.
S4 (12:59):
Oh, man. There's probably a hundred. Probably a hundred or more.
S2 (13:04):
The next button, literally. I believe the Holy Spirit took
my finger and put it on the next button so
we could play a song and get things figured out.
And we got Scott. Well, and he was he was fine.
He actually finished out the show at one point. We're
doing the show and he had like EMT taking his
blood pressure. Well, they've got his arm and he's he's
on Mike and he's doing the show. He's just he
(13:26):
faithfully does what needs to be done. And he did
that for years. And I've got another Scott story. Can
I tell you another one.
S4 (13:35):
Go.
S2 (13:36):
All right. This is this is a good one too.
I mean, that was a good one. You gotta admit
that was a good one. But this is a good one, too.
So I think I was maybe a year and a
half Off into the mornings when I had to have
foot surgery. And I'm telling you, that thing was no joke.
I was on a knee scooter for I was on
(13:56):
a scooter for three months and then had like another
month of just not on the scooter, but still in
the boot.
S4 (14:02):
I love that knee scooter. I mean.
S5 (14:05):
I know you did.
S4 (14:05):
I'm glad you're better, but I still wish you would
have kept bringing it in because I was up and
down this hallway. It was so fun, man. That was
one of the best times in my life.
S5 (14:16):
I know.
S2 (14:17):
I know, I would be I would be, like, leaning
back in my seat with my leg propped up on
the desk because I needed to elevate it because of
pain and all and swelling and all that anyway. And
Perry's taking my scooter to go to the bathroom, zoomed
down the.
S5 (14:31):
Hall.
S2 (14:32):
Good times. But during that time, knee scooter time. It
happened to be winter and Scott has been working at
the station forever. So the best parking spot is Scott's
spot man. Like he he.
S5 (14:44):
Deserves that.
S2 (14:45):
Spot. That was his spot. He could park wherever he
wanted to. There wasn't even any car in the lot
for a while while he was here. But the first
day that I showed up after my surgery, I was
a little nervous. I didn't know how I was going
to get in on that knee scooter with snow on
the ground, you know. And my work bag on my
shoulder and all the things. But I pull up into
the parking lot and the one place that Scott's car
(15:07):
always was, and he was always the first person there
was not in its usual spot, because Scott thought that
that would be the best place for me to be
able to park and be able to get into the studio.
Here's the thing. He didn't make a big deal about it.
He never said, you know what, Shauna? I thought it'd
be better for you if you parked in my spot.
I mean, he never said. He never said anything about it.
(15:29):
He just did it. And I think it's such a
picture of who Scott is. You know, he doesn't go
out of the way to get credit. He just quietly, humbly,
sacrificially gives of himself for the benefit of others. And
that's that's a model for all of us in a
way that we can be more like God, in a
(15:51):
way that we can bear the image of our father.
Thank you. Scott. Sometimes all you need to step into
your God given destiny is someone who believes in you.
It was the summer of 2018 and I had just
arrived at my job. I was on staff at church
at that time. I was working part time, and I
(16:12):
got a phone call from station manager of 89.3 Moody Radio,
Grand Rapids Jack Haveman, and he starts explaining to me
that he was looking for a new morning show host,
and a mutual friend of ours had given him my name.
I quickly explained how unqualified I was for this role.
I mean.
S5 (16:32):
Like.
S2 (16:33):
Bullet points, the line by line, like I don't have
a college degree, I have no experience on radio, but
I have I have seen God like connect people in really, really,
really wonderful ways. And so I thought maybe God connected
me to Jack so that I could help connect him
with the person that he's looking for, for the job.
(16:54):
And he wasn't having it. He wasn't having any of it.
About 20 minutes into that phone call, we're wrapping up
and he just said, just, just promise me you'll pray
about it. Just tell me that you'll pray about it.
And I was like, yeah, of course I'm going to
pray about it. And as I continued to pray into
the position and Jack continued to encourage me and we
(17:16):
kept having conversations, I could see God was doing something like,
this was bigger than Jack, this was bigger than me.
This was God on the move.
S4 (17:25):
Jack, do you remember that conversation? Oh, yeah. And her
trying to get out of it. Oh, yeah. So why
did you why did you believe so much in Shauna?
S6 (17:34):
I sensed, and I'm sure it was through the Holy
Spirit that she was the one that I was looking for.
S4 (17:41):
Was it the halo?
S6 (17:42):
It was the halo.
S5 (17:43):
Okay, that was part of it.
S6 (17:45):
No. It was. I just was not going to say
no to her. And she just kept throwing all these
things up. And I said, yeah, I know. You know,
I don't have this. I don't have this, I don't
have this. I said, yeah, but what you do have
is this. And there was this, um, understanding, I think,
(18:06):
that developed shortly thereafter, especially when she said, okay, I'll
be praying about it. And I don't know exactly. Shauna,
what happened when you were starting to pray about it?
What were what was your prayer like?
S2 (18:18):
You know, it's it's very interesting because it's kind of
a full circle moment as Perry and Shauna morning's comes
to a land I am, I found myself praying the
same prayer again. And it's just may it be to me,
as you have said, like whatever you have for this
is scary as heck. And I would run for the
(18:39):
hills if it was totally up to me. But if
it's you, Lord, I'll do it.
S6 (18:47):
Yeah.
S4 (18:48):
Here I am, Lord. It's that surrender.
S5 (18:52):
Right?
S6 (18:53):
For me personally, it was one of the finest times. Well,
you were part of the process, too, Perry. I mean,
it wasn't like, you know, when we started interviewing her
and so on and so forth. And, Shawna, I don't
want to make you feel uncomfortable here, but we had
about 12. I think there were 12 other women that
(19:13):
we were looking at. As I recall. She set the
bar so high it was like, where else are we going?
It was so clear to us.
S4 (19:23):
Yeah, it was it was a God thing, as they say.
I don't think anybody's ever used that phrase before, a
God thing.
S6 (19:29):
No.
S5 (19:30):
Coming up with something that. I think.
S6 (19:31):
That's good.
S5 (19:32):
Yeah.
S4 (19:32):
Go ahead.
S5 (19:32):
Shawna. That's good.
S2 (19:34):
Here's the thing, Jack. Thank you for those incredibly kind words.
But Jack didn't give a rip. He didn't care that
I didn't have a degree, and I didn't have the
experience that was needed and neither did God. God didn't
care that I didn't have the degree and I didn't
have any broadcasting experience. He had a plan for me,
and it was a plan that so far exceeded what
I could even think or imagine. And all I needed really,
(19:59):
to step into my God given destiny was someone who
believed in me, and Jack. Was that someone?
S6 (20:04):
So here's the thing that I think really showed that
the Holy Spirit was in it. The only thing that
I had from you to see anything, what you might
sound like or whatever. I had this little snippet and
you were doing announcements in front of your church. That's
all I had. That's all. That's all I knew. But
(20:24):
I said, this is her. I just sensed it. It
was at that point I said, okay, Lord, let's let's
move ahead. And that's what happened.
S2 (20:34):
Well, thank you, Jack. Thank you for taking a chance on,
you know, a mom from Middleville who had never stepped
foot inside a radio station before.
S6 (20:48):
It was a great decision and I'm so thankful.
S2 (20:51):
So now I want to. I just want to turn
it to you. I don't know how you disqualify yourself,
but I want you to know that I believe in you.
That God, the God who placed the sun and the
moon in the sky with such great intentionality, has got
good intentions for your life, and they are not for
(21:12):
you to play small, but for you to take bold
risks for the kingdom of God, and to do things
that you never thought you could do. Risk is just obedience.
That doesn't make sense yet. I heard that this week
at the conference. Risk is just your obedience to God
that you haven't figured out yet, but he is working
out a good plan for your life. And so instead
(21:33):
of trying to figure out what doesn't make sense to you,
start asking the question, God, is this you? Is this
you doing this right now? And if it is, do
it not for your glory, but for his. I believe in.
S5 (21:52):
You.
S4 (21:57):
He was a straight up, strong atheist and he was dying.
He was getting ready to draw his final breath and
he was looking forward to nothing, experiencing absolutely nothing after
he drew his final breath. Talk about Howard Storms near-death experience.
S7 (22:18):
So he's one of the sort of, you know, big
hero stories in the film, because I would say he
probably had the biggest, uh, transition or change in his life.
So he was an atheist university professor. And I think
at that time it was decades into that worldview. There's
absolutely nothing. And, you know, there's kind of a spectrum
of atheist thought, but his is there's absolutely nothing. He
(22:39):
was confident in that. So much so that when he
took his last breath, he assumed that there would be
nothing after. And so, to his surprise, you know, his
his consciousness continues on and he's standing in the room
feeling better than he's ever felt in his entire life.
And he sees his body on the bed. He doesn't
know what to really make of that. He doesn't really
want to think about that. He tries to talk to
(23:00):
his wife who isn't responding to him. And there's these
people in the hallway who are calling his name, and
he assumes that they're, you know, medical professionals, that they're
going to take him to a surgery room and help him.
He had a perforation in his stomach. And he basically
he was, uh, the insides of his stomach was bleeding
and it was digesting himself from the inside. It was
very painful. Uh, but it was difficult to continue breathing.
(23:23):
So that's when he went unconscious. And he has this
continued experience which eventually turned into actually a hellish experience.
But during that period where he's in this absolute darkness,
he's offered up this memory of himself as a child,
going to Sunday school, and I think it was once
or twice in his entire life when he was 5
or 6 years old. And he, uh, and he's taught
(23:45):
this very simple song, you know, Jesus loves me, this
I know. That's it. And he's wondering why. Why he's
remembering that. And he he hears this voice. Tell him
to pray. He doesn't even know what that is. You know,
he doesn't exercise any kind of prayer life. He doesn't.
He hasn't read the Bible. He has no clue what
the context is for that. So he doesn't have words.
He hears the voice. The same voice two different times. Pray, Howard. Pray.
(24:09):
So he tries, you know, uh, God bless America. Anything
that kind of came to mind. But when he started,
you know, saying these things, these creatures that are around
him physically distance themselves and yet got louder and more
sort of vulgar, more angry, but they physically were distancing themselves.
And all of a sudden he calls out for Jesus
to save him. And this man of light comes and
(24:32):
enters this dark area and pulls him out. And he says,
like this place he was in was sort of like
the void it was the inverse of light. It was.
It wasn't like a starless night or a moonless night. Uh,
it wasn't like being in a room with the lights off. It's.
It's the inverse of light. So it's complete darkness that
we can't experience here on Earth is how he describes it.
(24:53):
And all of a sudden, this man pulls him up and, uh,
comes and rescues him out of this place, and he's
bringing him towards what he said he figured was heaven.
So his world made of light. And, uh, he says
that you're making a terrible mistake. That's what I chose.
This is what I wanted. Jesus says we don't make mistakes.
You do belong here.
S4 (25:14):
That was his way of saying I chose atheism. I'm
not worthy, you know, send me back to that dark place.
S7 (25:22):
I mean, he just says that that's what he chose.
That's what he. That's actually what he wanted. So he
was given this sort of grace to call out that
name in this place of sort of where he's in between. Right. He's, he's,
he's in this dying state and he and he's on
his way there, and he's just given this sort of
last opportunity to call out. Howard has a total life change.
(25:42):
When he comes back, he realizes his life has purpose.
He has meaning. You know, there's a reason why he's here.
And so, uh, he actually left that position because he
found it too difficult to continue in the university, and
he became a minister. He took a 90% pay cut.
And he's still to this day a minister, which, you know,
that's a huge change going from an atheist to a pastor.
S4 (26:06):
Steven Gray is the director of After Death, a feature
film that dives into what happens after we die, drawing
content from near-death experiences through the eyes of scientists and survivors.
So when he was rescued by Jesus, did he want
to stay with Jesus, or was he still like, no,
I still want to go my own way. I want
(26:28):
to be an atheist.
S7 (26:29):
No. Yeah, he wanted to stay. No, he but he
was told he had to go back, and there was
a reason for him to go back. And one of
the one of the things he was told that he
had to do was he has to love the people
he's with. And so Howard thought that was too simplistic, that,
you know, that's not a it's not difficult. You know,
what else do you want me to do? And Jesus says, no, no, no.
(26:49):
I want you just to love the people you're with.
That's going to change the world. You know, Howard later
came back and realized, actually, you know, loving people is
one of the hardest things he says to me. You know,
loving someone who loves you back is easy. Loving someone
who hates you or doesn't love you back, that's hard.
S2 (27:13):
We can't do this life on our own. My friend
Marty owns a restaurant in Sun City West, and after
he opened up the restaurant, he realized pretty quickly that
customers would come in every single day. You know, they
have their regulars, but they'd come in for breakfast and
they'd order a slice of toast and a cup of tea,
and he's like, okay, if they can get themselves up
in the morning and find their way to the restaurant,
(27:34):
they're definitely capable of making themselves a slice of toast
and a cup of tea. So he just started asking himself,
why are they coming here and paying me to make
their tea and toast them up a slice of bread.
And he realized that it was because they're someone says,
good morning, how are you today? Because they're not alone.
(27:57):
And we weren't meant to do life alone. We need
each other. So Marty had this brilliant idea. He arranged
his restaurant in such a way that he created this
long community table right down the middle of the restaurant
so that he could pull up a chair for anybody
at any time, and they could sit together in community.
Party of one became a party.
S4 (28:20):
Yeah. You know, I've gone into restaurants and that's usually
the old guys table. One long table with all the
old guys shooting the breeze.
S2 (28:30):
I just love it. I love that God led him
to do that. His restaurant is definitely his ministry, but
God led him to do that, and he just created
a way to pull up a seat at the table
so that we could do life together. And I love
that so much. And I, I feel like you have
done that for me. You have pulled out a chair
(28:52):
for me and Perry and Ben and Dodd and Scott
and Jack to be at your breakfast table. I just
want to thank you so much for letting us join
you there or, you know, shotgun on the commute to
work each day. And I just want to thank you
for allowing us to to be at the table and
to be with you to start the day together. Thank
(29:13):
you for praying for us.
S4 (29:16):
Thanks for the bagels and honey. Thanks for the oatmeal.
Grateful for it.
S2 (29:21):
And thanks for entrusting us with the stuff that's on
your heart. You guys have reached out and been so
just vulnerable and authentic with us as we've journeyed and
questioned God. Maybe shaking our fists at him from time
to time and fell, you know, with our face into
his lap, and just let him minister to us and
(29:43):
love on us. And I want you to know, I
guess this is kind of like, okay, like my kids
heading off for the, you know, heading off. And I
just like, I've got to tell you this one last time.
So I just need to tell you one last time.
God loves you. He really, really loves you. And his
plans for you are so incredibly good. Keep trusting him
and keep falling in love with him. I do believe
(30:04):
that Carl and crew are going to help you to
do that in the morning, and I get to help
you do that middays. I'm looking forward to those moments
with you being with you from 10 to 3 starting
on June 30th. And so we'll continue to grow in
that way together. But thank you for pulling out a
chair and letting us be at the table with you.
(30:25):
And as you step into your day, I'm just asking
that today in particular, every day from here on out,
but today in particular, can you live your faith out
loud in such a way that West Michigan knows that
you love Jesus, and that his family is a place
where they belong, and just pull out a chair just
like you did for us, pull out a chair for
(30:47):
somebody else and do life together with them, with God,
and with one another.
S4 (30:57):
Endings are hard, but here's what I've learned through the
endings in my life. The unexpected endings is that an
end always leads to a new beginning. And so Perry
and Shawna coming to an end. But that means a
new beginning. Endings are hard. They're sad. You grieve them.
(31:21):
But God opens doors. God does new things. He says.
Forget the former things. Do not dwell on the past. See,
I'm doing a new thing. God's doing a new thing
in our lives. God's doing a new thing in your life.
And so the future is bright. The best is yet
to come. Because as believers, we have the greatest hope ever.
(31:42):
We have the hope of Jesus Christ coming again to
make all the sad things come untrue. So we truly
can say we are the people of hope and the
best is yet to come. And I'm excited about not
just that, but the future that God has for me,
for Shawna, for Ben, for DoD and for you.
S2 (32:04):
Mhm. God finishes what he started. He's going to complete
the good work in you. And I just have to say,
I remember walking into the studio for my interview and
there was this tall, lanky guy who just pelted me
with questions about Star Wars and Harry Potter. And I
was like, is this a Christian radio interview? I think
(32:24):
I stumbled into the wrong station, and I am just
so grateful that you allowed me to have a seat
at the table and taught me everything I needed to know,
imparted your great radio wisdom to me. Thank you for
all the times that you gave me such a hard time.
And you drove me crazy. And I literally had to
find something to keep near my mic that I could
(32:46):
throw at you on the regular. Like a big brother
just asking me. I know it was. I know it
was all out of love and all the moments that. Gosh,
I remember so specifically Perry a day. Something was going
on with one of my kids, and I was I
was like, I just don't know how this is going
to go down. And I was, you know, freaking out.
(33:07):
And that is when you spoke those words I will
never forget. Shawna, don't freak out. And it was exactly
what I needed to hear. It was like so simple
and so straightforward. And it just it pierced through my
little anxiety attack and calmed my heart. And of course,
you spoke all kinds of beautiful words and encouragement and
(33:30):
blessing and scripture over me after that. And you've prayed
for me and just want to thank you for refining
me and strengthening me. You've done it for me. You've
done it for thousands. But for me specifically, it's been
six years, seven months, three hours a day, five days
a week. And I'm different. And I'm better for having
(33:50):
known you and having done this with you. So thank
you so much.
S4 (33:54):
Yeah, right back at you. You know, I was pelting
you with those questions about culture. I wanted to know
how pop culture aware you were, and I.
S2 (34:05):
Failed. I failed miserably on that test.
S4 (34:08):
But we did do Sean, and I did a, like,
a mock interview where we went back and forth and, man,
Shauna just kind of pinned me to the wall with
her questions. You were intense. I said, what's going on here?
I'm supposed to be, you know, interviewing Shauna, and she's
pinning me to the wall with questions. And, you know,
it was really clear. It was really clear when you
(34:30):
came in that that you had God had already prepared
you through all of. It's kind of like The Karate Kid.
I've mentioned this a lot of times where wax on,
wax off, he doesn't realize he's actually preparing to be
a karate person, the Karate Kid. And and you had
so many wax on, wax off experiences in your life
that led up to you being ready to do Christian radio?
(34:53):
You just had to figure out how to do what
you were doing so well. You just had to figure
out how to do that on the radio. So it
was really easy. You know, just giving you tips here
and there. And, and I know some of those were unwanted.
S2 (35:10):
And I learned anyway. Yeah. It's just it's been an
absolute joy. And I'm, I am so convinced because I
just have seen God work this way time and time again,
that when okay, here I'm going to paint a picture
for you because this is what I do, right? Like
a trapeze artist when they've got Ahold of the bar
and they're swinging and they go from one bar to
(35:31):
the next. If they don't let go of the bar
that brought them to where they are, they can't go forward.
They just hang stuck in the air. And so there
is a point where we grab on to what is next,
and there's a point where we let go of what
has been. And that is the point when God propels
us into the future. And that's what he's got for
(35:55):
all of us.
S4 (35:56):
Yeah, that's what we're doing right now. That's where we're
at right now. We are letting go of that bar,
and there's that scary place in the middle where you're
not holding on to either side, but you're going to
grab that next bar. And so here it is Jeremiah
33 three. How can we not end Perry and Shawna
(36:21):
without Jeremiah 33 three? How could we not? I ask
you call on me? The Lord says, call on me,
and I will show you great and unsearchable things which
you do not know.
S2 (36:38):
God loves you so, so much. And it's not just
like a blanket theology. It's a personal, radical, relational love.
He's with you right now. He's going to be with
you every moment of every day, loving on you so perfectly.
And his plans for you are absolutely amazing. Thanks for
(36:59):
giving us some of this time. It's been amazing.
S4 (37:02):
Let's go.
S1 (37:05):
Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life
journey with you. The content from the podcast comes from
their live show Barry and Shana Mornings on 89.3 Moody Radio,
Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to us by texting 800
968 8930 and please subscribe.
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