May 28, 2025 • 26 mins
Maybe this is how you feel. Perry can relate. It’s the number one lie of the enemy, “You have to earn your salvation,” or, “You need to work hard to keep yourself in God’s family,” or, “You’ve sinned your way out of God’s family”
Perry kicks of a conversation with Jeff Schreve about the unshakeable grace of God that crushes the lies of the enemy. Jeff’s a pastor and author of “The Devil’s Newsroom – Muting Satan’s Fake News & Tuning in to God’s Truth.
Also, Perry was in Ireland and talked with Jack, a bed & breakfast owner who said “I no longer believe in a Jesus who would allow children to be abused and killed.” How could Jesus allow that? Perry and Jeff wrestle with it.
Then, as Jesus followers we have the power of the Spirit to live a new life. But if that’s the case why are we addicted to alcohol, drugs, porn, success, work, unforgiveness? Maybe it’s because we’re into trying harder and beating ourselves up. How to tap into the Spirit’s power.
Next, it was the toughest moment in Perry’s life. The Christmas day he felt cut off from God. And Jeff shares the 2 hardest things he’s ever faced. And last, Perry was a year and half into his dream job. And he felt like giving up! What to do when life blindsides you.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:03):
It's the Perry and Shaunna podcast on the real life
journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved
child and that Jesus has called you into his massive
mission to heal the world.
S2 (00:17):
It is the most massive lie of the enemy, and
it's this you've got to earn your salvation. I was
spiritually reborn when I was ten years old. I knew
about the cross, but as I walked through my teenage years,
I really did get the message that you have to
earn it. And when I finally found out, grace and
(00:41):
grace flooded my heart. When I was 18 years old,
I was a young man set free. I don't know
about you, Jeff, but I've been following Jesus since I
was ten years old, and God just poured his love
into my heart by the Holy Spirit. And yet, there
have been many times during my journey with Jesus that
(01:02):
I've felt like I've gotta earn it. As a believer
all these years, or that I've got to do something
to keep myself in the family, or that I'll do
something to get myself kicked out of the family. So
talk about how salvation is just this beautiful gift. We
don't have to earn it.
S3 (01:23):
Yeah, I have a chapter in the book, Perry, chapter
three of the book, The Devil's Newsroom, where I call
it the world's most believed lie and the world's most
believed lie is you work for your salvation and you
work to to earn it. You work to keep it.
And the Bible is very clear that it's not as
a result of works, lest anyone should boast. But, you know,
(01:45):
we're so prone, it's just kind of in our in
our wiring, in our makeup that there's no free lunch.
And so we have to if we're going to get something, uh,
you're going to have to earn it. And there's got
to be sweat equity in there. And so most people,
they don't deny people that are trying to please God.
They don't deny the the importance of the cross and
(02:07):
the empty tomb and the sacrifice. They just believe that
I have to add my works to that. And that's
the lie that people believe. So, you know, the Philippian
jailer asks the question, what must I do to be saved?
And the answer is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and you shall be saved, you and your household if
(02:28):
they believe to. And so salvation is a it's not
a reward for the righteous, it's a gift for the guilty.
And it's not as a result of works, lest anyone
should boast. And not only do we receive it that way,
but then we continue. So it's by grace through faith
to begin your Christian life. It's by grace through faith
to continue in your Christian life. It's grace and faith
(02:50):
the whole way.
S2 (02:51):
Jeff Shreve with me and you. He's the lead pastor
of First Baptist Church, Texarkana, Texas, and his brand new
book is The Devil's Newsroom Muting Satan's Fake News and
Tuning in to God's Truth. What do you do to
remind yourself of the gospel? I do what's called this
(03:12):
isn't new with me, but I just preach the gospel
to myself and I need others to preach the gospel
to me.
S3 (03:18):
Right. You know, Jude says to keep yourself in the
love of God. And I think that we have to
constantly remind ourselves that God, God loves me. He loves me.
I was singing this song just in my mind today,
you know, on a best, on my best day of
my child of God and on my worst day, I'm
the child of God. God loves me when I'm doing great,
(03:39):
and God loves me when I'm struggling and doing poorly spiritually. Uh,
his love is not based on my performance, his acceptance
of me. As Christians, you know, what do you do
when you when you fail terribly? His acceptance of me
is not based on my performance. Because we're Ephesians one six.
We're accepted in the beloved, and the moment that we
(04:00):
receive Christ as Savior and Lord, then we're accepted in Jesus. And, uh,
the sun always pleases the father. And if we're in
the sun, then we can be pleasing from the standpoint
of our relationship with God. Now, obviously, Perry, we can
do things that displease God, and we can do things
that grieve the heart of God and grieve the Holy Spirit.
(04:23):
But that doesn't affect our relationship in terms of sonship.
It can affect our relationship in terms of fellowship. So first,
John makes it clear how do you have fellowship with God? Well,
you gotta walk in the light as he himself is
in the light. You have to deal with sin. You
have to confess your sin and bring that before the Lord.
And when we do, we can have confidence that we
(04:44):
have fellowship with him.
S2 (04:47):
Somebody just blew it in a massive way last night,
and they think they're done. What do you say to them.
S3 (04:56):
As as bad as you may have blown it, whatever
it was, it wasn't as bad as what Peter did,
denying the Lord three times that he even knew him,
and doing that in the backdrop of him boasting and saying,
all may desert you, but I will never desert you.
And arguing with Jesus that he wouldn't deny him, and
(05:18):
then he denies him. And then you have, as Luke records,
the cock crows and the Lord turns and looks at Peter,
and he went out and wept bitterly. And I think, Perry,
you and I would probably agree, if we're Peter at
that moment, we think there's no coming back from this.
I have so trashed my testimony. And how can the
(05:40):
Lord ever forgive me for what I did? And then
when the Lord rises from the dead. Mark records this
in his gospel, go tell my disciples and Peter that
he is risen. So I think just those two words.
And Peter, It. They're so filled with hope for you
and me when we blow it, because God is not
done with us. He hasn't kicked us out of the family.
(06:02):
There is grace even for the fallen saint. There's grace
and we can get right with God again.
S2 (06:08):
And even if it was worse than Peter's sin, the
Lord will forgive.
S3 (06:15):
Many of our listeners will remember the name Jeffrey Dahmer,
the mass murderer. I mean, horrible, awful sins that that
just boggle the mind. Well, Jeffrey Dahmer said that he
he asked Christ to forgive him, and he prayed to
receive Christ in prison. And I saw him in an interview.
You know, he was killed in prison by a fellow
(06:37):
inmate because, you know, there's there's some honor among thieves
and in, in prison, if you do beyond the pale,
they'll they'll kill you. But he said, you know, if
the gospel isn't for sinners, even as sinner as bad
as me, then it's not much of a gospel. And so,
you know, I rejoice at the fact that people like
(06:57):
the Son of Sam killer David Berkowitz, who has a
powerful testimony, Karla Faye Tucker, who was executed in Texas
some years ago, a pickaxe murderess. She got saved in prison.
So the blood of Jesus, God's Son, can cleanse from
all sin, even sin as horrible as what Jeffrey Dahmer did.
S2 (07:22):
I can't believe in a God who would allow that
to happen. I was in Ireland recently with my bride, Teresa,
and in Italy our 40th anniversary year, and I talked
with a guy named Jack, the owner of a bed
and breakfast. And I said, so, is your faith important
(07:44):
to you? And he said, well, I used to have
a faith, but I don't believe anymore because the clergy
in this area did horrific things to children, And I
can't believe not only in the church, but I can't
believe in a Jesus who would allow that to happen.
And I just talked recently with another gal and she said,
(08:06):
I don't believe I'm an atheist, because why would God
let all these horrible things happen to me? And so
there's a lot of people who feel like suffering disproves God.
Or if there's a God, it disproves his goodness.
S3 (08:24):
Yeah, it's a big problem and that's been around for
a long time. You know, if if God is is
all powerful, why does he allow this to continue? And, uh,
you know, why doesn't either? God doesn't love us. He
can do something about situations, and he doesn't because he
doesn't love us. Or he's he's powerless to change situations.
(08:46):
He loves us, but he can't do. And when you
get yourself in that kind of a conundrum, as one
preacher said, you're on the horns of a dilemma. The
bottom line is, when Adam and Eve sinned in Genesis
chapter three, they they unleashed all sorts of evils on
the world. They opened up Pandora's box, and death and
(09:07):
disease and depravity came in like a flood. And God
is is working to make all things new, as Jesus
says in the book of the revelation. But we're in
the process. So we're we're not at the place where
he's already done that. So he is he's paid for
the price of our sin. When he died on the
cross and rose again from the dead. And he is
(09:29):
coming back soon, and he will right every wrong. He
will wipe every tear from our eyes. So I was encouraged, Perry,
this way, because so many of those questions, it's impossible
to answer. We don't know why. You know, job didn't
know why he was going through all the things he
went through either. He just said, though he slay me,
yet will I trust in him. So I encourage people
(09:50):
in my church and people that I talked to. I said, listen,
you need to have down in your heart. God does
love me. The cross proves that. And God is good.
And the God who loves me, and the God who
is good, and the God who promises to work all
things together for good to those who love him and
are called according to his purpose. I may not know
(10:11):
what he's doing, but I know that I can trust him.
And it's really important to not view God through the
lens of circumstances or through the lens of culture, but
view circumstances and culture through the lens of God is good.
God loves me. God knows what he's doing, and God
is going to work all things together for good. Even
if I can't explain it.
S2 (10:32):
But really, it's a battle to get there. A couple
thoughts that come to mind. First of all, the cross.
The greatest injustice ever. The crucifixion of the Son of God,
the innocent Son of God. And that has brought about
the healing of the world. And one day that will
bring about one day the new heavens and the new earth.
(10:54):
But on the other hand, you know, I do believe
that the message, really the message of the Bible is
God works everything for the good, but we're not going
to see a lot of that until the other side.
I think that's what's really hard for my friend like Jack.
He's seen this horrific stuff done to kids, and he can't.
(11:15):
He can't. If justice doesn't happen now, then it can't
happen because he doesn't believe in God. But we're not
going to see some of the justice until the other side.
S3 (11:25):
Right. So the Lord makes it clear, you know, never
take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the
wrath of God. For it is written, vengeance is mine.
I will repay, says the Lord. Romans 1219 and so
we have to just say, okay, Lord, we know that
you're righteous. As Abraham posed the question to God in
Genesis 18. Shall not the judge of all the earth
(11:46):
deal justly? And God will deal justly, because he's holy, holy, holy.
And he's. His throne is built on truth and righteousness.
But we're not going to see everything in this life.
We will see it in the next life. And then,
as the Scripture says, we will all say, Lord, you
did all things well, because God is a perfect God.
(12:08):
He doesn't. He doesn't bat 95%. I mean, he bats
a thousand and he does all things perfectly well. His
ways are not our ways, and so we can't understand.
And he doesn't explain himself to us. You know, it's
kind of on a need to know basis in most
of the time. His answer is, you don't need to know.
You just trust me. I know what I'm doing, so
(12:29):
just trust me.
S2 (12:30):
I think it was C.S. Lewis, or maybe Tim Keller
who said that God's going to take. And I do
think this lines up with the scripture. God's going to
take the most horrific things in this world, and he's
going to turn them for the good and the new
heavens and the earth. There's going to be a glory
in the new heavens and the new earth that wouldn't
be there if it weren't for that evil that happened now.
S3 (12:54):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. You know, and that's
just like the testimonies I was mentioning. So Jeffrey Dahmer,
who didn't really get to live out his Christian testimony
because he was killed, but the Son of Sam killer
David Berkowitz, uh, he has a great testimony. Karla Faye
Tucker had a great testimony, and that was birthed out
of such terrible, horrible sins and such a terrible background.
(13:16):
But we look at that as Paul said, you know,
he was a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor,
yet he became a trophy of God's grace. And his
testimony is basically, hey, if God can change me, if
he can save me, if he can forgive me, he
can forgive anybody because I'm the chief of sinners. And
so we marvel at that and we rejoice at that.
S2 (13:37):
Yeah. I was lamenting to, uh, one of my, well,
my best friend about some of the sins of my
teenage years. I was lamenting with him a number of
years ago. And I just said, I don't see how
how God could work this for the good. And he said,
think about John Newton, you know, the slave trader. And
(13:58):
he took advantage of women when he was in charge
of a slave ship. And he goes, and God transforms
him and he writes amazing Grace. You think about how
amazing Grace has blessed people all over the world.
S3 (14:14):
Yeah, for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's amazing. I mean,
so God can he can take the worst of our
sin and turn it for good. I heard a sermon.
I quote Adrian Rogers quite a bit in my book
The Devil's Newsroom, because he was so influential in my
life as a young Christian. But you know how he
weaves things together, you know, he says, how the early
(14:36):
church no doubt was praying that God would take this
Saul of Tarsus out of the way because he was
wreaking havoc on the church. Lord, just take him out.
Just judge him. Just kill him. And he said, the
Lord's response is, I'm not going to kill him. I'm
going to save him. And he's going to be the
greatest example of a Christian that the world has ever seen.
And that is God's way. He doesn't he doesn't throw
(14:59):
people away. He doesn't write people off. He he works
and works and works to bring people to that place
where they can be a testimony of his grace.
S2 (15:12):
You and I have the power of the Holy Spirit
to live a brand new life. But it's an art,
not a science. To learn how to tap into the
power of the Holy Spirit. I remember as a believer
in my teenage years, I don't think there was one
temptation that came to me that I was able to overcome.
(15:32):
I didn't know how to access the power of the
Holy Spirit. You know, as believers, as Jesus followers, we
have the power of the Holy Spirit to live a
new life. And I love the passage in Ephesians four
it says, put off the old self which is being
corrupted by its deceitful desires, and put on the new self,
(15:55):
created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
So we have this power, and yet we're addicted to
drugs and alcohol and porn and success and ministry even.
So how do we put on the new self? How
do we tap into the power of the Holy Spirit
(16:16):
to live this new life?
S3 (16:18):
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Perry is. I love this thought. So, uh,
we're to walk in his steps like the Sheldon book,
you know? In his steps. And just what would Jesus do? Well,
we can't do what Jesus did. But here's the wonderful
thing about Jesus being our example. He did not defeat
the devil and the temptations of this world through his deity.
(16:43):
He did it in his humanity. He did it as
not as God. And you and I can't do that
because we're not God. But he did it as a man,
depending upon God. So he was totally yielded to the
Holy Spirit of God. None of us are totally yielded
at every, you know, moment of life to the spirit.
But we can do that. We can, you know, as
(17:03):
it says in Galatians 516, but I say, walk by
the spirit, and you will not carry out the desire
of the flesh. So I think that just in a
practical way, you know, every day I would encourage our
listeners to as soon as you wake up, get down
on your knees and surrender your life anew and afresh,
not to be saved again, but just say, Lord, I
belong to you, you, you. I've been bought with a price.
(17:24):
I want to glorify you in my body. So help
me to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
Second Corinthians ten five. Uh, help me to to live
a life that's pleasing to you. As Paul said, whether
then you eat or drink or whatever you do, do
all to the glory of God. So if you're getting
ready to go do your job, and maybe your job
is just a difficult job. Maybe you say, I don't
(17:45):
like this job. You really work for Jesus. You don't
work for Mr. Brown or Mr. Smith or whoever it
might be. You really work for Jesus. And so we
want to do that job to his glory. We want
to think thoughts that please him. And when we blow it,
you know, rather than beat ourselves up, we just need
to say, Lord, I blew it. You know, self got
on the throne. And so I just confess that as
(18:07):
sin I want you to fill me again. And we
just lived. You know, I forget who came up with
the expression spiritual breathing. But anytime you sin, you immediately
confess that sin. And you ask the Lord to fill
you again and take charge. And the more we do that,
and the more we're cognizant of that, the more we
walk in victory.
S2 (18:25):
I think for my own life is when I'm not
when I'm not being spirit led, it's because I'm trying
really hard in my own strength. Number one and number two,
I'm I'm hating on myself. I think believers have a
lot of self-hatred. And if we're trying harder in our
(18:46):
own strength and we're beating ourselves up, we're never going
to be able to tap into the Holy Spirit.
S3 (18:52):
It's exactly right. And I think that for a lot of,
you know, some of that is personality. If you tend
to be kind of a perfectionist in just your temperament,
you can be really hard on yourself. Yeah, I'm like
that too. But if we give in to especially the
sins of the flesh with sexual immorality, you know, we
sin against our own body. As it says in First
(19:13):
Corinthians chapter six. There's a a shame that is associated
with that. That's maybe different than, than other type of sins.
And so we really have to battle. But it's it's
good and right for me to love what God loves
and God loves me. And so God doesn't never think,
you know, he doesn't run me down. He doesn't say,
(19:33):
what a bum, what a loser. What a second class believer.
I wish I never had you. He doesn't say that
to us. You know, uh, sometimes I've caught my wife,
and if she'll say something negative about herself, I'll say,
you need to stop talking about my wife that way.
You know, I think if we start saying, hey, when
we go down that, that road. So, Perry, hey, God
(19:55):
says to Perry, Perry, quit talking about my son that way.
That's my son. That's my beloved son. And so we
I think we need to start building ourselves up with
the truth of the Word of God, rather than tearing
ourselves down. The devil would love for us to get
in the I'm terrible. I'm horrible. I never do anything right. Uh,
God doesn't love me. All those lies from the enemy.
And that's one of the key things about the Devil's
(20:17):
Newsroom is you. You mute those lies as you really
focus in on the truth of God's word.
S4 (20:26):
It was the toughest thing.
S2 (20:28):
I ever had to go through. It was Christmas Day, 1996,
and I was in a deep, dark place of depression,
and I felt that I was cut off from God,
And that was the worst moment in my life. It
was also the best moment in my life as I
saw the hand of God break through. What's the hardest thing?
(20:51):
The toughest thing you've ever gone through? Jeff.
S3 (20:54):
Probably going into the ministry was hard because I was.
I was already married with three kids and I had
prayed when I was in college. God, if you want
me to do this, please call me. Uh, I had
a desire to do it, but I, I knew I
had to be called to do that, and he didn't
call me then he called me later, and then I thought,
(21:15):
how can I possibly do this? And I had a
good job, high paying job. And so that was a
big get out of the boat moment for me. And
then just being honest, Perry's, uh, being the pastor here.
I've been the pastor at First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas,
since 2003, and the church really needed a lot of change.
S2 (21:34):
Yeah, change is so hard. And to be the bringer
of change, you took a lot of hits.
S3 (21:40):
Yeah. And so I, I hit some very difficult times.
Times I had a running joke. It's how much can
surgery can the church endure before Jeff dies? Because, you know,
you can only change things so long. And then they
say we're we're going to change you. We're changing pastors.
There were some really difficult dark times there, and some
(22:02):
times where I just felt like the Lord had abandoned me.
Then I had to remind myself of the truth. He'll
never leave me, never forsake me. And now here I am, 20,
almost 23 years later. And to see what God has
done here has nothing short of a miracle. And I'm
so grateful that the Lord didn't allow me to leave
here before I saw this work come to fruition.
S2 (22:25):
So don't give up. Don't give up because God has
a hope and a future for you. His word says
that we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to
do good works which God has prepared in advance for
us to do. I felt like giving up. So in 2007,
(22:50):
I resigned from Family Life Radio, Midland, Michigan, packed up
everything we owned and moved to Phoenix, Arizona to join
frontiers with love and respect, inviting all Muslim peoples to
follow Jesus. And they had said, yes, we want a
radio and music guy to come in here and share
(23:10):
the vision of frontiers. And I got into that job.
I had stars in my eyes. I was so excited.
I got to record an album, got to start a
new radio feature, and a year and a half in,
I felt like quitting. I felt like giving up. I
wanted to give up because things weren't going the way
(23:31):
I had expected. I had expected God to do this, this, this,
this and this according to my plan. And a very
wise man said to me, my friend John, he said, Perry,
you've done what you planned. Now let's see what God
has in store. And maybe you've been blindsided by life
and maybe you feel like giving up. Jeff Shreve is
(23:56):
the senior pastor of First Baptist Church, Texarkana, Texas. Jeff,
what do we do when we're in that place when
we feel like giving up?
S3 (24:06):
We have a choice. We can curse God and die,
or we can trust God and live. If you go
the curse God and die and get bitter root, it's
going to ruin your whole life. But if you say, okay, Lord,
I don't. I don't like this. I don't understand it,
but I'm going to trust you. That's when things begin
to open up. Because, you know, if you believe, as
(24:27):
Jesus told Martha, did I not say to you, if
you believe, you will see the glory of God. And
as we believe God and trust him, even in the
hard times, we see his glory.
S2 (24:36):
There's somebody listening. They want to curse God. And they
are bitter about what's going on in their life. Talk
to them.
S3 (24:49):
One I encourage you say, listen, you can pour out
your heart to God. Psalm 62, verse eight is one
of my favorite scriptures. Trust in him at all times,
O people. Pour out your heart before him. God is
a refuge for us. And so God is a safe place,
and you can share everything. You can share your frustrations,
you can share your hurts. You can share your fears.
You can share everything with him. And just know as you.
(25:13):
You may feel a million miles away from God. But
know this Jesus died on the cross for you. He
loved you. As Paul said in Galatians 220, uh, who
loved me? He loved me and delivered himself up for me, and, uh,
crossed his personal. And God does love you, and God
does have a plan for you. And if you'll just
trust him and cast all your cares upon him, you
(25:36):
will see him do great and mighty things. And that's
a promise from the Word of God.
S2 (25:41):
And just to piggyback on that, God's not angry with
you for feeling like cursing him. God's not ready to
kick you out of his family because you're bitter. He
loves you. Jeff just said it. Jesus died on the
cross for you. And you can just. Just come as
(26:03):
you are. Come right as you are. You don't have
to fix all that stuff. That poison that's in you.
You don't have to fix that. Just bring it to Jesus.
S1 (26:15):
Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life
journey with you. The content from the Perry and Shawna
podcast comes from their live show. Barry and Sharla. Mornings
on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to
us by texting 896 8930 and please subscribe.
It's the Perry and Shaunna podcast on the real life
journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved
child and that Jesus has called you into his massive
mission to heal the world.
S2 (00:17):
It is the most massive lie of the enemy, and
it's this you've got to earn your salvation. I was
spiritually reborn when I was ten years old. I knew
about the cross, but as I walked through my teenage years,
I really did get the message that you have to
earn it. And when I finally found out, grace and
(00:41):
grace flooded my heart. When I was 18 years old,
I was a young man set free. I don't know
about you, Jeff, but I've been following Jesus since I
was ten years old, and God just poured his love
into my heart by the Holy Spirit. And yet, there
have been many times during my journey with Jesus that
(01:02):
I've felt like I've gotta earn it. As a believer
all these years, or that I've got to do something
to keep myself in the family, or that I'll do
something to get myself kicked out of the family. So
talk about how salvation is just this beautiful gift. We
don't have to earn it.
S3 (01:23):
Yeah, I have a chapter in the book, Perry, chapter
three of the book, The Devil's Newsroom, where I call
it the world's most believed lie and the world's most
believed lie is you work for your salvation and you
work to to earn it. You work to keep it.
And the Bible is very clear that it's not as
a result of works, lest anyone should boast. But, you know,
(01:45):
we're so prone, it's just kind of in our in
our wiring, in our makeup that there's no free lunch.
And so we have to if we're going to get something, uh,
you're going to have to earn it. And there's got
to be sweat equity in there. And so most people,
they don't deny people that are trying to please God.
They don't deny the the importance of the cross and
(02:07):
the empty tomb and the sacrifice. They just believe that
I have to add my works to that. And that's
the lie that people believe. So, you know, the Philippian
jailer asks the question, what must I do to be saved?
And the answer is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and you shall be saved, you and your household if
(02:28):
they believe to. And so salvation is a it's not
a reward for the righteous, it's a gift for the guilty.
And it's not as a result of works, lest anyone
should boast. And not only do we receive it that way,
but then we continue. So it's by grace through faith
to begin your Christian life. It's by grace through faith
to continue in your Christian life. It's grace and faith
(02:50):
the whole way.
S2 (02:51):
Jeff Shreve with me and you. He's the lead pastor
of First Baptist Church, Texarkana, Texas, and his brand new
book is The Devil's Newsroom Muting Satan's Fake News and
Tuning in to God's Truth. What do you do to
remind yourself of the gospel? I do what's called this
(03:12):
isn't new with me, but I just preach the gospel
to myself and I need others to preach the gospel
to me.
S3 (03:18):
Right. You know, Jude says to keep yourself in the
love of God. And I think that we have to
constantly remind ourselves that God, God loves me. He loves me.
I was singing this song just in my mind today,
you know, on a best, on my best day of
my child of God and on my worst day, I'm
the child of God. God loves me when I'm doing great,
(03:39):
and God loves me when I'm struggling and doing poorly spiritually. Uh,
his love is not based on my performance, his acceptance
of me. As Christians, you know, what do you do
when you when you fail terribly? His acceptance of me
is not based on my performance. Because we're Ephesians one six.
We're accepted in the beloved, and the moment that we
(04:00):
receive Christ as Savior and Lord, then we're accepted in Jesus. And, uh,
the sun always pleases the father. And if we're in
the sun, then we can be pleasing from the standpoint
of our relationship with God. Now, obviously, Perry, we can
do things that displease God, and we can do things
that grieve the heart of God and grieve the Holy Spirit.
(04:23):
But that doesn't affect our relationship in terms of sonship.
It can affect our relationship in terms of fellowship. So first,
John makes it clear how do you have fellowship with God? Well,
you gotta walk in the light as he himself is
in the light. You have to deal with sin. You
have to confess your sin and bring that before the Lord.
And when we do, we can have confidence that we
(04:44):
have fellowship with him.
S2 (04:47):
Somebody just blew it in a massive way last night,
and they think they're done. What do you say to them.
S3 (04:56):
As as bad as you may have blown it, whatever
it was, it wasn't as bad as what Peter did,
denying the Lord three times that he even knew him,
and doing that in the backdrop of him boasting and saying,
all may desert you, but I will never desert you.
And arguing with Jesus that he wouldn't deny him, and
(05:18):
then he denies him. And then you have, as Luke records,
the cock crows and the Lord turns and looks at Peter,
and he went out and wept bitterly. And I think, Perry,
you and I would probably agree, if we're Peter at
that moment, we think there's no coming back from this.
I have so trashed my testimony. And how can the
(05:40):
Lord ever forgive me for what I did? And then
when the Lord rises from the dead. Mark records this
in his gospel, go tell my disciples and Peter that
he is risen. So I think just those two words.
And Peter, It. They're so filled with hope for you
and me when we blow it, because God is not
done with us. He hasn't kicked us out of the family.
(06:02):
There is grace even for the fallen saint. There's grace
and we can get right with God again.
S2 (06:08):
And even if it was worse than Peter's sin, the
Lord will forgive.
S3 (06:15):
Many of our listeners will remember the name Jeffrey Dahmer,
the mass murderer. I mean, horrible, awful sins that that
just boggle the mind. Well, Jeffrey Dahmer said that he
he asked Christ to forgive him, and he prayed to
receive Christ in prison. And I saw him in an interview.
You know, he was killed in prison by a fellow
(06:37):
inmate because, you know, there's there's some honor among thieves
and in, in prison, if you do beyond the pale,
they'll they'll kill you. But he said, you know, if
the gospel isn't for sinners, even as sinner as bad
as me, then it's not much of a gospel. And so,
you know, I rejoice at the fact that people like
(06:57):
the Son of Sam killer David Berkowitz, who has a
powerful testimony, Karla Faye Tucker, who was executed in Texas
some years ago, a pickaxe murderess. She got saved in prison.
So the blood of Jesus, God's Son, can cleanse from
all sin, even sin as horrible as what Jeffrey Dahmer did.
S2 (07:22):
I can't believe in a God who would allow that
to happen. I was in Ireland recently with my bride, Teresa,
and in Italy our 40th anniversary year, and I talked
with a guy named Jack, the owner of a bed
and breakfast. And I said, so, is your faith important
(07:44):
to you? And he said, well, I used to have
a faith, but I don't believe anymore because the clergy
in this area did horrific things to children, And I
can't believe not only in the church, but I can't
believe in a Jesus who would allow that to happen.
And I just talked recently with another gal and she said,
(08:06):
I don't believe I'm an atheist, because why would God
let all these horrible things happen to me? And so
there's a lot of people who feel like suffering disproves God.
Or if there's a God, it disproves his goodness.
S3 (08:24):
Yeah, it's a big problem and that's been around for
a long time. You know, if if God is is
all powerful, why does he allow this to continue? And, uh,
you know, why doesn't either? God doesn't love us. He
can do something about situations, and he doesn't because he
doesn't love us. Or he's he's powerless to change situations.
(08:46):
He loves us, but he can't do. And when you
get yourself in that kind of a conundrum, as one
preacher said, you're on the horns of a dilemma. The
bottom line is, when Adam and Eve sinned in Genesis
chapter three, they they unleashed all sorts of evils on
the world. They opened up Pandora's box, and death and
(09:07):
disease and depravity came in like a flood. And God
is is working to make all things new, as Jesus
says in the book of the revelation. But we're in
the process. So we're we're not at the place where
he's already done that. So he is he's paid for
the price of our sin. When he died on the
cross and rose again from the dead. And he is
(09:29):
coming back soon, and he will right every wrong. He
will wipe every tear from our eyes. So I was encouraged, Perry,
this way, because so many of those questions, it's impossible
to answer. We don't know why. You know, job didn't
know why he was going through all the things he
went through either. He just said, though he slay me,
yet will I trust in him. So I encourage people
(09:50):
in my church and people that I talked to. I said, listen,
you need to have down in your heart. God does
love me. The cross proves that. And God is good.
And the God who loves me, and the God who
is good, and the God who promises to work all
things together for good to those who love him and
are called according to his purpose. I may not know
(10:11):
what he's doing, but I know that I can trust him.
And it's really important to not view God through the
lens of circumstances or through the lens of culture, but
view circumstances and culture through the lens of God is good.
God loves me. God knows what he's doing, and God
is going to work all things together for good. Even
if I can't explain it.
S2 (10:32):
But really, it's a battle to get there. A couple
thoughts that come to mind. First of all, the cross.
The greatest injustice ever. The crucifixion of the Son of God,
the innocent Son of God. And that has brought about
the healing of the world. And one day that will
bring about one day the new heavens and the new earth.
(10:54):
But on the other hand, you know, I do believe
that the message, really the message of the Bible is
God works everything for the good, but we're not going
to see a lot of that until the other side.
I think that's what's really hard for my friend like Jack.
He's seen this horrific stuff done to kids, and he can't.
(11:15):
He can't. If justice doesn't happen now, then it can't
happen because he doesn't believe in God. But we're not
going to see some of the justice until the other side.
S3 (11:25):
Right. So the Lord makes it clear, you know, never
take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the
wrath of God. For it is written, vengeance is mine.
I will repay, says the Lord. Romans 1219 and so
we have to just say, okay, Lord, we know that
you're righteous. As Abraham posed the question to God in
Genesis 18. Shall not the judge of all the earth
(11:46):
deal justly? And God will deal justly, because he's holy, holy, holy.
And he's. His throne is built on truth and righteousness.
But we're not going to see everything in this life.
We will see it in the next life. And then,
as the Scripture says, we will all say, Lord, you
did all things well, because God is a perfect God.
(12:08):
He doesn't. He doesn't bat 95%. I mean, he bats
a thousand and he does all things perfectly well. His
ways are not our ways, and so we can't understand.
And he doesn't explain himself to us. You know, it's
kind of on a need to know basis in most
of the time. His answer is, you don't need to know.
You just trust me. I know what I'm doing, so
(12:29):
just trust me.
S2 (12:30):
I think it was C.S. Lewis, or maybe Tim Keller
who said that God's going to take. And I do
think this lines up with the scripture. God's going to
take the most horrific things in this world, and he's
going to turn them for the good and the new
heavens and the earth. There's going to be a glory
in the new heavens and the new earth that wouldn't
be there if it weren't for that evil that happened now.
S3 (12:54):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. You know, and that's
just like the testimonies I was mentioning. So Jeffrey Dahmer,
who didn't really get to live out his Christian testimony
because he was killed, but the Son of Sam killer
David Berkowitz, uh, he has a great testimony. Karla Faye
Tucker had a great testimony, and that was birthed out
of such terrible, horrible sins and such a terrible background.
(13:16):
But we look at that as Paul said, you know,
he was a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor,
yet he became a trophy of God's grace. And his
testimony is basically, hey, if God can change me, if
he can save me, if he can forgive me, he
can forgive anybody because I'm the chief of sinners. And
so we marvel at that and we rejoice at that.
S2 (13:37):
Yeah. I was lamenting to, uh, one of my, well,
my best friend about some of the sins of my
teenage years. I was lamenting with him a number of
years ago. And I just said, I don't see how
how God could work this for the good. And he said,
think about John Newton, you know, the slave trader. And
(13:58):
he took advantage of women when he was in charge
of a slave ship. And he goes, and God transforms
him and he writes amazing Grace. You think about how
amazing Grace has blessed people all over the world.
S3 (14:14):
Yeah, for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's amazing. I mean,
so God can he can take the worst of our
sin and turn it for good. I heard a sermon.
I quote Adrian Rogers quite a bit in my book
The Devil's Newsroom, because he was so influential in my
life as a young Christian. But you know how he
weaves things together, you know, he says, how the early
(14:36):
church no doubt was praying that God would take this
Saul of Tarsus out of the way because he was
wreaking havoc on the church. Lord, just take him out.
Just judge him. Just kill him. And he said, the
Lord's response is, I'm not going to kill him. I'm
going to save him. And he's going to be the
greatest example of a Christian that the world has ever seen.
And that is God's way. He doesn't he doesn't throw
(14:59):
people away. He doesn't write people off. He he works
and works and works to bring people to that place
where they can be a testimony of his grace.
S2 (15:12):
You and I have the power of the Holy Spirit
to live a brand new life. But it's an art,
not a science. To learn how to tap into the
power of the Holy Spirit. I remember as a believer
in my teenage years, I don't think there was one
temptation that came to me that I was able to overcome.
(15:32):
I didn't know how to access the power of the
Holy Spirit. You know, as believers, as Jesus followers, we
have the power of the Holy Spirit to live a
new life. And I love the passage in Ephesians four
it says, put off the old self which is being
corrupted by its deceitful desires, and put on the new self,
(15:55):
created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
So we have this power, and yet we're addicted to
drugs and alcohol and porn and success and ministry even.
So how do we put on the new self? How
do we tap into the power of the Holy Spirit
(16:16):
to live this new life?
S3 (16:18):
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Perry is. I love this thought. So, uh,
we're to walk in his steps like the Sheldon book,
you know? In his steps. And just what would Jesus do? Well,
we can't do what Jesus did. But here's the wonderful
thing about Jesus being our example. He did not defeat
the devil and the temptations of this world through his deity.
(16:43):
He did it in his humanity. He did it as
not as God. And you and I can't do that
because we're not God. But he did it as a man,
depending upon God. So he was totally yielded to the
Holy Spirit of God. None of us are totally yielded
at every, you know, moment of life to the spirit.
But we can do that. We can, you know, as
(17:03):
it says in Galatians 516, but I say, walk by
the spirit, and you will not carry out the desire
of the flesh. So I think that just in a
practical way, you know, every day I would encourage our
listeners to as soon as you wake up, get down
on your knees and surrender your life anew and afresh,
not to be saved again, but just say, Lord, I
belong to you, you, you. I've been bought with a price.
(17:24):
I want to glorify you in my body. So help
me to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
Second Corinthians ten five. Uh, help me to to live
a life that's pleasing to you. As Paul said, whether
then you eat or drink or whatever you do, do
all to the glory of God. So if you're getting
ready to go do your job, and maybe your job
is just a difficult job. Maybe you say, I don't
(17:45):
like this job. You really work for Jesus. You don't
work for Mr. Brown or Mr. Smith or whoever it
might be. You really work for Jesus. And so we
want to do that job to his glory. We want
to think thoughts that please him. And when we blow it,
you know, rather than beat ourselves up, we just need
to say, Lord, I blew it. You know, self got
on the throne. And so I just confess that as
(18:07):
sin I want you to fill me again. And we
just lived. You know, I forget who came up with
the expression spiritual breathing. But anytime you sin, you immediately
confess that sin. And you ask the Lord to fill
you again and take charge. And the more we do that,
and the more we're cognizant of that, the more we
walk in victory.
S2 (18:25):
I think for my own life is when I'm not
when I'm not being spirit led, it's because I'm trying
really hard in my own strength. Number one and number two,
I'm I'm hating on myself. I think believers have a
lot of self-hatred. And if we're trying harder in our
(18:46):
own strength and we're beating ourselves up, we're never going
to be able to tap into the Holy Spirit.
S3 (18:52):
It's exactly right. And I think that for a lot of,
you know, some of that is personality. If you tend
to be kind of a perfectionist in just your temperament,
you can be really hard on yourself. Yeah, I'm like
that too. But if we give in to especially the
sins of the flesh with sexual immorality, you know, we
sin against our own body. As it says in First
(19:13):
Corinthians chapter six. There's a a shame that is associated
with that. That's maybe different than, than other type of sins.
And so we really have to battle. But it's it's
good and right for me to love what God loves
and God loves me. And so God doesn't never think,
you know, he doesn't run me down. He doesn't say,
(19:33):
what a bum, what a loser. What a second class believer.
I wish I never had you. He doesn't say that
to us. You know, uh, sometimes I've caught my wife,
and if she'll say something negative about herself, I'll say,
you need to stop talking about my wife that way.
You know, I think if we start saying, hey, when
we go down that, that road. So, Perry, hey, God
(19:55):
says to Perry, Perry, quit talking about my son that way.
That's my son. That's my beloved son. And so we
I think we need to start building ourselves up with
the truth of the Word of God, rather than tearing
ourselves down. The devil would love for us to get
in the I'm terrible. I'm horrible. I never do anything right. Uh,
God doesn't love me. All those lies from the enemy.
And that's one of the key things about the Devil's
(20:17):
Newsroom is you. You mute those lies as you really
focus in on the truth of God's word.
S4 (20:26):
It was the toughest thing.
S2 (20:28):
I ever had to go through. It was Christmas Day, 1996,
and I was in a deep, dark place of depression,
and I felt that I was cut off from God,
And that was the worst moment in my life. It
was also the best moment in my life as I
saw the hand of God break through. What's the hardest thing?
(20:51):
The toughest thing you've ever gone through? Jeff.
S3 (20:54):
Probably going into the ministry was hard because I was.
I was already married with three kids and I had
prayed when I was in college. God, if you want
me to do this, please call me. Uh, I had
a desire to do it, but I, I knew I
had to be called to do that, and he didn't
call me then he called me later, and then I thought,
(21:15):
how can I possibly do this? And I had a
good job, high paying job. And so that was a
big get out of the boat moment for me. And
then just being honest, Perry's, uh, being the pastor here.
I've been the pastor at First Baptist Church in Texarkana, Texas,
since 2003, and the church really needed a lot of change.
S2 (21:34):
Yeah, change is so hard. And to be the bringer
of change, you took a lot of hits.
S3 (21:40):
Yeah. And so I, I hit some very difficult times.
Times I had a running joke. It's how much can
surgery can the church endure before Jeff dies? Because, you know,
you can only change things so long. And then they
say we're we're going to change you. We're changing pastors.
There were some really difficult dark times there, and some
(22:02):
times where I just felt like the Lord had abandoned me.
Then I had to remind myself of the truth. He'll
never leave me, never forsake me. And now here I am, 20,
almost 23 years later. And to see what God has
done here has nothing short of a miracle. And I'm
so grateful that the Lord didn't allow me to leave
here before I saw this work come to fruition.
S2 (22:25):
So don't give up. Don't give up because God has
a hope and a future for you. His word says
that we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to
do good works which God has prepared in advance for
us to do. I felt like giving up. So in 2007,
(22:50):
I resigned from Family Life Radio, Midland, Michigan, packed up
everything we owned and moved to Phoenix, Arizona to join
frontiers with love and respect, inviting all Muslim peoples to
follow Jesus. And they had said, yes, we want a
radio and music guy to come in here and share
(23:10):
the vision of frontiers. And I got into that job.
I had stars in my eyes. I was so excited.
I got to record an album, got to start a
new radio feature, and a year and a half in,
I felt like quitting. I felt like giving up. I
wanted to give up because things weren't going the way
(23:31):
I had expected. I had expected God to do this, this, this,
this and this according to my plan. And a very
wise man said to me, my friend John, he said, Perry,
you've done what you planned. Now let's see what God
has in store. And maybe you've been blindsided by life
and maybe you feel like giving up. Jeff Shreve is
(23:56):
the senior pastor of First Baptist Church, Texarkana, Texas. Jeff,
what do we do when we're in that place when
we feel like giving up?
S3 (24:06):
We have a choice. We can curse God and die,
or we can trust God and live. If you go
the curse God and die and get bitter root, it's
going to ruin your whole life. But if you say, okay, Lord,
I don't. I don't like this. I don't understand it,
but I'm going to trust you. That's when things begin
to open up. Because, you know, if you believe, as
(24:27):
Jesus told Martha, did I not say to you, if
you believe, you will see the glory of God. And
as we believe God and trust him, even in the
hard times, we see his glory.
S2 (24:36):
There's somebody listening. They want to curse God. And they
are bitter about what's going on in their life. Talk
to them.
S3 (24:49):
One I encourage you say, listen, you can pour out
your heart to God. Psalm 62, verse eight is one
of my favorite scriptures. Trust in him at all times,
O people. Pour out your heart before him. God is
a refuge for us. And so God is a safe place,
and you can share everything. You can share your frustrations,
you can share your hurts. You can share your fears.
You can share everything with him. And just know as you.
(25:13):
You may feel a million miles away from God. But
know this Jesus died on the cross for you. He
loved you. As Paul said in Galatians 220, uh, who
loved me? He loved me and delivered himself up for me, and, uh,
crossed his personal. And God does love you, and God
does have a plan for you. And if you'll just
trust him and cast all your cares upon him, you
(25:36):
will see him do great and mighty things. And that's
a promise from the Word of God.
S2 (25:41):
And just to piggyback on that, God's not angry with
you for feeling like cursing him. God's not ready to
kick you out of his family because you're bitter. He
loves you. Jeff just said it. Jesus died on the
cross for you. And you can just. Just come as
(26:03):
you are. Come right as you are. You don't have
to fix all that stuff. That poison that's in you.
You don't have to fix that. Just bring it to Jesus.
S1 (26:15):
Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life
journey with you. The content from the Perry and Shawna
podcast comes from their live show. Barry and Sharla. Mornings
on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to
us by texting 896 8930 and please subscribe.
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