May 27, 2025 • 29 mins
CS Lewis life was beautiful at the start. He had a father and mother who loved him. His mother was his joy. She helped fuel his God given joy and imagination.
And then his life went dark. His mother died, his father became an angry, grieving man and he was sent to an abusive boarding school.
Leah Boden, author of Chronicles of Wonder: The Story-Formed Life of CS Lewisjoins us to share the defining moments of CS Lewis’ life.
We hear how his mom’s death led toward his atheism.
How he even became intrigued by the occult.
How JRR Tolkien challenged him to surrender to God.
How, once he became a Christian he encouraged Tolkien to finish the Lord of the Rings!
Perry shares why he absolutely loves CS Lewis’ Space Trilogy.
How Lewis saw his approaching death as a friend.
And how he fulfilled a promise to a soldier who died fighting alongside him in the war.
Share this!
Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshow/wgnb
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:03):
It's the Perry and Shawna podcast on the real life
journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved
child and that Jesus has called you into his massive
mission to heal the world.
S2 (00:17):
C.S. Lewis life was beautiful at the beginning. He had
a father and mother who loved him. His mother was special,
was his joy. She helped fuel his God given joy
in imagination. But then his life went dark. His mother
died when he was so young. His father became an
angry grieving man, and C.S. Lewis and his brother Warren
(00:41):
were sent to an abusive boarding school. What is one
of the first defining moments of Lewis's life?
S3 (00:48):
I think, sadly, one of the first defining moments of his,
of his life was when his mother died. So his
mother passed away when he was a young boy, and
she supported his education at home for a period of
time before he and the shift. Then many people who
know about his life. He ended up going into a
boarding school, but before that he had this quite blissful
(01:12):
home life really, where his mother taught him. They read
lots of books, she had tutors come in, but she
really guided that. And yeah, at the loss of his
mother is a thread through the the biography of his life,
the story of his life, which you can see how
it's defined him, but also it that began his journey
(01:34):
to to finding Jesus, which was a long journey for Lewis,
a long journey. But it was very defining.
S2 (01:40):
What was the negative, the initial negative impact of losing
his mom.
S3 (01:45):
I would say the impact it had on his father,
and then how he began to treat the boys. So
the loss on him and him dealing with the grief
of his wife. We see and we read about the
relationship beginning to break down between the boys and his dad.
And you can see, I mean, that grief does different
(02:07):
things to different people. And so it felt like it
it seems like when you read his stories, Mr. Lewis
didn't have the capacity or time to be able to
raise the boys in the way they were being raised
when mum was around. So they off. They went to
boarding school, which was a pretty horrible experience.
S2 (02:26):
So what was his experience like at boarding school? What
happened there?
S3 (02:31):
Well, he he goes into it in some of his books,
and we know from various bits of correspondence that he
was treated badly. I think the, the one particular school
was closed down eventually because it was such a bad school.
But the headmaster, I mean, you kind of get this
image of this very British, very strict corporal punishment kind
(02:55):
of place where there really wasn't time or space for childhood,
or for fun, or for imagination. And those were the
things that that were important to C.S. Lewis. They were
the things that we know now from his work and
his life. It's almost like, you know, you read Narnia
and you think this is an adult man trying to
(03:16):
bring this childhood wonder and whimsy back to us all. So, yeah,
I think there were some things that happened that maybe
he never went into, but I know there were the
boys were treated badly. There was a lot of aggression
and anger, and it was a very unhappy time for him.
S2 (03:35):
I can never believe in a God who would allow that.
Theresa and I just got back from our trip to Ireland,
and we stayed in a bed and breakfast on the
Atlantic Ocean up in Galway, and just a lovely and
grand place. And Monica and Jack own this bed and breakfast.
They actually live there, and all their kids and grandkids
(03:58):
are in the area. They're just lovely people. And on
Saturday morning, it was a Saturday morning. I got talking
with Jack and I said, Jack, is your faith important
to you? And he said, it used to be. I
don't believe anymore. And I said, what's up? What happened?
And he said, well, this country experienced horrible clergy abuse
(04:22):
in the 50s, 60s and 70s. And in fact, in
our area there was horrible child abuse. There were children
even killed. And he said, I can't believe in a
Jesus who would allow that. I got to share with
him my story. And it was just it was a
(04:42):
it was a good conversation, but I just felt a pain.
And it made me realize that no one has ever
really born an atheist. Something happens probably early in life.
That was the case for C.S. Lewis. What was it
that made him move into atheism, was it? What's the
backdrop of that? And when did he choose to say,
(05:06):
I don't believe there's a God?
S3 (05:08):
He was a bit of a churchgoer as a child,
so I think he was forced. And I kind of
paint that picture in my in one of the chapters,
him and his brother just not wanting to go to
go to church. But that's what they did. And I
think he was there's grief and mistreatment and his journey
(05:28):
into academia and intellectualism. He he got into some pretty
dark stuff. And, you know, I'm sure he had long
periods of depression and all sorts going on. It was
very dark. And so he just went hard. You can
sense this hardening and this completely turning away from what
(05:52):
he understood at that time, what Christianity was or who
God represented. And he lingered in that for a long time,
a long time. But what's amazing is, and what you
read in Lewis's story is that you can see the
pursuit of God in his life, that God pursuing his
heart through his interactions, through the people he met, through
(06:15):
the places he was in, and even through his story.
You can really see that.
S2 (06:20):
Author Leah Bowden is with us. She's written a fictionalized
biography of the great C.S. Lewis for kids and for adults.
You say you went into some dark places, like the
literature he was reading or or what do you mean
by that?
S3 (06:36):
Yeah, I mean, the things he was reading and I
think he was quite interested in the occult for a while.
And yeah, there were some really dark stuff.
S2 (06:48):
One of the things that I have recognized when I
read Lewis is that you can see some of his
mental habits come through in his stories. In other words,
you can tell that he learned how to take some
of those thoughts captive, how to take those thoughts captive
and make them obedient to Christ. And because this is
(07:09):
something I've learned in my own life, I can see that.
See those things that he learned showing up in his stories?
Does that make sense?
S3 (07:17):
It makes complete sense. And I too have had to
learn to do that. And that's such an important part
of our discipleship journey, is holding those thoughts captive and
submitting those our minds and bodies lives to Jesus. And yeah,
I think he he there was a battle in his mind.
And part of I guess when an intellectual turns to Jesus,
(07:40):
I think, you know, many evangelists have told me they're
the hardest to reach because there's so much to contend with.
And yet the amazing thing about Lewis's story is that he,
the people that were in his life and these, these
relationships like Tolkien, who began to influence his thinking. And
(08:03):
because he wanted he was a person who loved that
discursive setup. You know, the kind of rooms where you're
talking about deep things and intellectual conversations and, you know,
everything from the little rooms in modeling college to the
the pubs in England. He was this he wanted those conversations.
And so the right people, the significant relationships began to form,
(08:27):
which then started to guide and inform his thinking, which
then his heart eventually caught up with.
S2 (08:36):
He gave me an on ramp to Jesus. If you
listen to Perry and Shawna, you know my story. I
was in fifth grade. It was after recess. The bell
had just rung and I got talking with Lenny Melberg
and all the boys were surrounding me, and Lenny and
Lenny shared with me the gospel. He said, Perry, I
(08:57):
hope that someday you can become saved. Now, I had
asked Jesus to come into my heart, but I was
too embarrassed to say that to anybody, and I just
needed somebody to help me fully cross the line. And
I know the Holy Spirit gave Lenny those words. Perry,
I hope that someday you can become saved. It was
(09:19):
a beautiful on ramp to the gospel. And when he
said that, what immediately came out of my heart was,
I am a Christian, and I really meant it. And
at that moment, the Holy Spirit just flooded my heart
with the love of God, and I knew that I
was in the family. It was a beautiful moment for C.S. Lewis.
(09:40):
He started his life in faith. His mom was the
joy of his heart. But then he lost his mom
and his heart became hard. So talk about his journey
back to the father. His his return home to the father.
Was it Tolkien who influenced him most.
S3 (10:00):
So it would seem there were many, many aspects to
that journey back to to the father Father's heart. And
he moved to The Kilns in Oxford, which is the
house that many people know about. It's still there. And
him and his brother decided to start going to the
local church, just a little Anglican church where he worshipped
(10:21):
for many, many years. And so I think there was
a shift there in that just he made a decision, okay,
I'm going to enter into this. I'm going to try
this again. And in the midst of that, he was,
you know, meeting new people at Oxford. He was, in
these conversations, starting to form friendships with people like Tolkien
that somebody else called Dyson. And the the story goes,
(10:45):
I mean, he was attending church and was beginning to
hear preachers and started to explore that a little bit more.
But there's a great story where him and Tolkien and
Dyson had been talking and talking and talking. And they
go for this walk, this beautiful country walk, which my
husband and I have walked a couple of times around,
(11:07):
the kind of just on the outside of Magdalene College,
this countryside walk and, and the walkway almost. There's not
room for more than three people to stand in a row.
And they did this walk together and they walked all
the way around and they just really bashed out. And
Tolkien really challenged C.S. Lewis's thinking and asked him, you know,
really trying to pointing to the fact that you need
(11:29):
to surrender your heart to God. And they went back,
I think, to one of the rooms, and they were
talking all night. But the real moment when he says
that this was when I gave my life to Jesus,
he was actually in a sidecar. So his his brother
had said, come on, let's go to the zoo. I mean,
it's so great. Let's go to the zoo for the day.
(11:51):
One is driving this bike. Lewis is in this sidecar
next to him and they go to a zoo called.
I think it's Wyvern. I'm trying to think maybe I
said the wrong one now. I've been to it anyway.
The one I know it well. I don't know what
happened on the way there. I don't know what I mean.
I have imagined, and I've put that into the story
for the children. But something happened. He maybe he had
(12:14):
time to really think and process. Maybe. I don't know
what was going on in his mind, but he he
says when he left to go to the zoo, he
wasn't a Christian. When he arrived at the zoo, he was.
And so that I mean, that's his words. That's what
he said. And so the great thing about writing fictionalised
biography is I got to really imagine for children what
(12:38):
might have gone through his mind in that time. But
we can we can only imagine which is what he
would want us to do. Really?
S2 (12:45):
Yeah. Where the power of saying to someone, I believe
in you. The power of hearing that from somebody else.
I remember I was recording my ahead album in Nashville
with my producer, Andy Hunt, and we were driving to
(13:06):
get lunch, and I was just talking about, you know,
for every one person who believes in you, there's a
hundred people who don't believe in you. And I was
talking regarding my music, and I was kind of I
was kind of grumbling. I was actually grumbling that there's
there's not many people who believe in me. And Andy said,
(13:27):
I believe in you. And, man, hearing that from this
amazing guy with an amazing heart and amazing talent and,
you know, doing great work in Nashville and having him say,
I believe in you just gave me so much confidence.
So there's so much power to that. And C.S. Lewis
(13:50):
actually believed in someone else that, you know, and you
need to hear this part of the story. Is it
true that Tolkien showed him the Lord of the Rings
or The Hobbit or, you know, and and he really
didn't think a whole lot of it. And Lewis said, man,
you really you really have something here. You need to
finish it. Did that happen? Anything like that?
S3 (14:13):
That's what my understanding as well, from my reading. Yes.
So they, you know, many of us who love Lewis's work,
we we have heard about the inklings, which was this
group of scholars and writers who gathered together to share
each other's work. And I think, I mean, as a writer,
it's quite a vulnerable thing to sit in a room
(14:33):
and say, hey, let me read this draft out to you.
I don't think I've ever done that. Maybe to my husband.
And they would sit around and read each other's work
and critique it. And so that happened a lot. But
I my understanding is that Tolkien and Lewis had a
different level of that relationship where they would meet together,
just the two of them. And yeah, I think Dawkins shared,
(14:54):
shared his work and would say that almost Lewis was
his greatest fan. He was the one who said, you've
got to get this out. And I do address that.
I write about this scene where they're in the Eagle
and Child pub, and they get thrown out because they've
been in there for so long talking. And in this scene,
Tolkien is reading out a part of The Hobbit to C.S.
(15:15):
Lewis and describing the houses and things like that. And C.S.
Lewis is just encouraging him, saying, you have to get
this out. This is amazing work. And there's this interaction
between them, both of this encouragement and really. Yeah, kind
of sort of really supporting and promoting each other, which
I think is amazing in friendship. And writers need those
(15:36):
kind of relationships, don't they?
S2 (15:38):
The power of friendship. So is it accurate to say
that Tolkien had some self-doubt about his work?
S3 (15:46):
That is my understanding as well. I mean, we you know,
we've those of us who have read probably similar things
and similar accounts, but yes, that is that is also
my understanding from my research is that he did have doubt,
which I think is human. You know, and I think
you don't often meet a writer who's about to put
some work out into the world or even, you know,
gets hold of their their book for the first time
(16:08):
and said, this is incredible. There's always doubts. And that's
why we need we can't do this in isolation. We
have to have those people around us. And I'm so glad.
I mean, how cool that Louis got to play that
part in in Tolkien's life. Yeah.
S2 (16:22):
Talk to that person who, you know, they've got that
creative bent in them. They just have to write or
they need to to create lyrics and they need to,
you know, do the creative process. And they think that
they don't have anything, you know, they've put something together,
but they think that it's junk. Talk to that person.
S3 (16:42):
Oh, I mean, I feel that I understand that completely.
I think it's really. I've published three books now, and
it'll be four by the end of the summer this year.
And you still hear very loudly the voice of the
critic saying, you know, this is not great. What are
you doing? Who do you think you are? And that
can happen in the beginning, in process, when you just
(17:03):
get in those lyrics or those words on the page,
or it can happen when you hold your book in
your hand. And as a Christian, knowing that God has
given you something, as an offering, as a gift. We
do that so humbly anyway. We hold that with open hands.
And so I would say, I encourage anybody who is
pursuing a creative life or has something that they'd love
(17:26):
to share with the world and their writing. It is
definitely to get it down. Get it down on paper,
get it out. You know, the Bible says we commit
our work to the Lord and it will succeed. I'm
a true believer in just committing all our words and
writing to God at the beginning of every process, and
dedicating that to him. And then I would find get
around people who who do understand it. It's, uh, it
(17:48):
can be quite an isolating place as a writer, as
a creator, because not everyone gets it. Not everyone sees
the what goes into it. And I'm not talking about, uh,
you know, the kind of pain of the art I'm
talking about. Just it's so different from any other job,
from any of the kind of thing that you create
or put out there. And so get around people, find community,
(18:10):
find just the ones or twos who you can say, hey,
I'm feeling vulnerable about this. Can I can you look
at this with me? And that's really important. I'm thankful
that I've found people like that who I can share
this with. And yeah, but don't listen to the voice
of the critic. Listen. Listen to the voice of the
Holy Spirit. And I think it's really important to say
(18:31):
to those people that if you have something, I know
what it's like when you have an idea and you
can't shake it, you wake up thinking about it. You
have to do it and do something about it. And
even if it's for an audience of one, it's always
worth getting it down on paper.
S2 (18:51):
Science fiction changed my life. Well, specifically Star Wars. It
was the Star Wars for that was the first Star
Wars that came out. And I remember that scene where
Luke Skywalker, he's working for his uncle. He's he's basically
a farm boy, but he feels this, this longing for
(19:12):
more in his life. He doesn't know what the more is.
And he he walks up on this little sand dune
and the two suns of Tatooine are setting, and the
music swells, and you can just feel the longing of
his heart, and that he knows there's more for him
in his life. And I remember as a teenager watching
that scene, and it just moved me because I grew
(19:34):
up in this small town, northern Michigan, didn't really know
what life was about. And I had this sense, though,
that God had something for me. God had more for me.
Science fiction has the ability to communicate powerful truths. It
also can communicate really dark things. But science fiction at
(19:56):
its best, really communicates deep spiritual truths. And I think
that's why C.S. Lewis wrote his own science fiction trilogy.
So one of my favorite works of Lewis is the
Space Trilogy. And not many, not many people share my
joy in the space trilogy. And I'm back in it again,
(20:17):
and I just can't get away from it. Why is
this trilogy so compelling?
S3 (20:23):
Okay, so I haven't read the Space trilogy, and my
I'm so sorry. You know, I was, uh. The thing is,
I was writing three books in 18 months, so I
was walking alongside three wonderful, you know, men and women
of Christ from the past. And so there was only
so much I had. I did read constantly for a year,
(20:45):
but I did not get to the space trilogy, much
to my father's disappointment as well, because he is a
huge fan. He has read them so I can speak
on behalf of him because he's talked to me about them.
I just think it's, you know, not everyone gets to them,
do they? And they don't always understand that kind of genre.
I think people find Lewis through their for their faith journey,
(21:05):
and so they will automatically go to all those books
and those things. They are on my list of things
to read. I mean, you know, you maybe you could
tell us why should we read them? What is it?
What what's drawn you to them? Can I turn the
microphone back on you?
S2 (21:19):
Oh, boy. Yeah. That's great.
S3 (21:21):
How many times have you read them?
S2 (21:24):
Probably five.
S3 (21:26):
Wow. Okay. I'm definitely going to read them now.
S2 (21:29):
Five times, I guess. I love science fiction. And of course,
I love the story of redemption. And the story of
redemption is wrapped up in the space trilogy. And also
it shows how our lives we become many redeemers when
we give our lives over to Jesus. And, you know,
(21:51):
it just explores the whole idea of a Christian worldview
looking at the universe. And and if if there are
other planets that have sentient beings, they are beings that
are created in the image of God. And God is
working out a story on their planets that are that
are similar to ours. So it just creates a wonder
and it creates a deeper appreciation for a universe that's
(22:15):
created by God.
S4 (22:16):
That's amazing.
S3 (22:18):
I mean, that'll sell them.
S2 (22:22):
There you go.
S3 (22:23):
Well done.
S2 (22:27):
I have a sense of completion, and I've had a
40 plus year career in radio. I don't think I'm
completely done with radio, but I really do feel like
I've done everything that the Lord has asked me to
do in my radio ministry. And that's that's a good
feeling to know that you have finished this part of
(22:49):
the race really well. And C.S. Lewis, at the end
of his life had that really strong sense of completion.
I understand that, you know, C.S. Lewis, he died when
he was just 64. And I just turned 64 in March.
And I don't have the sense of foreboding that that
I'm going to pass away because C.S. Lewis was 64.
But it's just I actually find a kind of a
(23:11):
connection with Lewis because of that. But at any rate,
I understand that about a week before he died, he
was living with his brother Warren, and he said to
his brother, I've done everything that God has asked me
to do. I've written everything he's asked me to write.
I'm ready to go home. Have you heard this?
S4 (23:35):
Yeah, yeah I have.
S3 (23:37):
He was ready. The crazy thing about his ending story
is that he had some health issues. He had, like,
a blood poisoning. He had kidney issues, but he had
a heart attack and went into a coma. They thought
he was done. And the story goes that, you know,
they're all kind of starting to grieve the loss of C.S. Lewis.
(23:58):
And he comes out of this coma and sits up
and asks for a cup of tea. You know, I mean,
that's just like, wow. And he keeps going, you know,
and ends up back home. And and he did have
to then he died at home in the kilns and
he couldn't go back upstairs. They brought all his stuff downstairs.
And yeah, his brother was a faithful carer to him
(24:21):
and was there at the end. And yeah, that's what
I have read too. Is that his. He was ready
and he didn't fight it. It's interesting isn't it. I,
I think we, we do have a, I guess our
21st century view of death. And as Christians, even we're
constantly thinking the right outcome is to stay alive, to
(24:45):
be healthy, to be well, to to pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray.
But when you get someone who says, you know I,
this might not seem right to everybody else, and I
know you'll all miss me, but actually it's my time.
And we find that we find that hard on earth side.
We do find that really difficult. But I mean, what
a what a legacy he's left. I mean, he did
(25:06):
a lot, didn't he? In just over six decades that
he was on the earth. And that part of his story,
I mean, when he did die, he died on the
same day as JFK was assassinated. He died on the
same day as Aldous Huxley, the author. The British died.
So it was almost understated because so much was going on,
(25:27):
obviously here in the States that it was it was
a small kind of okay, he's gone.
S2 (25:34):
His way of saying, I'm ready. Just reminds me so
much of Paul saying, I've fought the fight, I've finished
the race, I've kept the faith, and now there's a
crown waiting for me. I hear that in Lewis. The
way Lewis goes out. And that's the way I want
to go out.
S4 (25:50):
Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Me too.
S3 (25:53):
It's so inspiring, isn't it? And, you know, writing this
whole series. You know, I'm writing it for middle grade.
All the books, they tell the story of a whole life.
So they all have a death scene. Spoiler alert for everybody. Sorry,
but the penultimate chapter of all these books in this
series have a death scene. And so I've it's interesting
then kind of getting myself into that place of being
(26:16):
able to write that and really read about what do
we know has happened, and how am I going to
present this to a younger audience, and particularly in the
first two books that are out at the moment? I
felt very emotional, like very emotional, like when I finished
that chapter, writing that out and recognizing the impact that
(26:39):
they had made and them finishing well, like you just said,
like Paul finishing that race. Well, knowing that this isn't
the end and what a great hope. What a great
hope we have.
S2 (26:53):
Man. I want to finish that. Well, like CS Lewis
did and like Paul did, I have fought the good fight.
I have kept the faith. I have finished the race.
Now there's a crown of righteousness waiting for me. Maybe
you have a suffering friend in your life, a hurting
person in your life. I do. I've talked about my
(27:17):
suffering friend on the show. My brother has suffered very deeply,
emotionally and spiritually throughout all of his life. And really,
the the suffering began when he was a teenager. And
as a person in my early 20s, seeing my brother suffer,
(27:37):
I realized, oh, I was I was signing up for
a lifetime of being there for my brother. I was
praying early on that he would be healed and that
he would have a good life, but he's not really
gotten better. So it's been a lifetime of of caring
for him. And we're talking about the story of C.S. Lewis.
(27:59):
And he has something very similar to this that happened
in his life.
S3 (28:04):
One thing that really, really stands out to me is
that when he was in World War One, he had
a friend. Him and his friend promised each other that
if either of them died at war, that the other
one would look after their family, so they would look
after the father or the mother. And in Lewis's case,
it would have been his father. In his friend's case,
(28:27):
it was his mother. And so they made this pact,
they made this promise. And Lewis's friend died, and he
fulfilled that promise and to the end of, you know,
quite late into Lewis's life, he cared for this, this
friend's mother. And she's a big part of his story.
Lots of people have read about her before, but I've
(28:47):
tied that into my story, too, and just that commitment
to being faithful, even after death, to a promise that
you've made to a friend speaks so powerfully of somebody's character,
and that really stood out to me.
S2 (29:02):
How old was he when he was in the war?
S3 (29:04):
He was drafted, so he was drafted in Oxford. So
he was like 19. He was very young. Yeah. So
he would have been in his early 20s to make
a promise like that. That's incredible, isn't it? Who would
do that today?
S2 (29:17):
If you have a suffering friend in your life like
I do, just keep showing up. Just keep encouraging them.
Just keep bringing some light into their life.
S1 (29:30):
Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life
journey with you. The content from the Perry and Shawna
podcast comes from their live show Barry and Shawna Mornings
on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to
us by texting 800 968 8930. And please subscribe.
It's the Perry and Shawna podcast on the real life
journey with you, reminding you that you are ABBA's beloved
child and that Jesus has called you into his massive
mission to heal the world.
S2 (00:17):
C.S. Lewis life was beautiful at the beginning. He had
a father and mother who loved him. His mother was special,
was his joy. She helped fuel his God given joy
in imagination. But then his life went dark. His mother
died when he was so young. His father became an
angry grieving man, and C.S. Lewis and his brother Warren
(00:41):
were sent to an abusive boarding school. What is one
of the first defining moments of Lewis's life?
S3 (00:48):
I think, sadly, one of the first defining moments of his,
of his life was when his mother died. So his
mother passed away when he was a young boy, and
she supported his education at home for a period of
time before he and the shift. Then many people who
know about his life. He ended up going into a
boarding school, but before that he had this quite blissful
(01:12):
home life really, where his mother taught him. They read
lots of books, she had tutors come in, but she
really guided that. And yeah, at the loss of his
mother is a thread through the the biography of his life,
the story of his life, which you can see how
it's defined him, but also it that began his journey
(01:34):
to to finding Jesus, which was a long journey for Lewis,
a long journey. But it was very defining.
S2 (01:40):
What was the negative, the initial negative impact of losing
his mom.
S3 (01:45):
I would say the impact it had on his father,
and then how he began to treat the boys. So
the loss on him and him dealing with the grief
of his wife. We see and we read about the
relationship beginning to break down between the boys and his dad.
And you can see, I mean, that grief does different
(02:07):
things to different people. And so it felt like it
it seems like when you read his stories, Mr. Lewis
didn't have the capacity or time to be able to
raise the boys in the way they were being raised
when mum was around. So they off. They went to
boarding school, which was a pretty horrible experience.
S2 (02:26):
So what was his experience like at boarding school? What
happened there?
S3 (02:31):
Well, he he goes into it in some of his books,
and we know from various bits of correspondence that he
was treated badly. I think the, the one particular school
was closed down eventually because it was such a bad school.
But the headmaster, I mean, you kind of get this
image of this very British, very strict corporal punishment kind
(02:55):
of place where there really wasn't time or space for childhood,
or for fun, or for imagination. And those were the
things that that were important to C.S. Lewis. They were
the things that we know now from his work and
his life. It's almost like, you know, you read Narnia
and you think this is an adult man trying to
(03:16):
bring this childhood wonder and whimsy back to us all. So, yeah,
I think there were some things that happened that maybe
he never went into, but I know there were the
boys were treated badly. There was a lot of aggression
and anger, and it was a very unhappy time for him.
S2 (03:35):
I can never believe in a God who would allow that.
Theresa and I just got back from our trip to Ireland,
and we stayed in a bed and breakfast on the
Atlantic Ocean up in Galway, and just a lovely and
grand place. And Monica and Jack own this bed and breakfast.
They actually live there, and all their kids and grandkids
(03:58):
are in the area. They're just lovely people. And on
Saturday morning, it was a Saturday morning. I got talking
with Jack and I said, Jack, is your faith important
to you? And he said, it used to be. I
don't believe anymore. And I said, what's up? What happened?
And he said, well, this country experienced horrible clergy abuse
(04:22):
in the 50s, 60s and 70s. And in fact, in
our area there was horrible child abuse. There were children
even killed. And he said, I can't believe in a
Jesus who would allow that. I got to share with
him my story. And it was just it was a
(04:42):
it was a good conversation, but I just felt a pain.
And it made me realize that no one has ever
really born an atheist. Something happens probably early in life.
That was the case for C.S. Lewis. What was it
that made him move into atheism, was it? What's the
backdrop of that? And when did he choose to say,
(05:06):
I don't believe there's a God?
S3 (05:08):
He was a bit of a churchgoer as a child,
so I think he was forced. And I kind of
paint that picture in my in one of the chapters,
him and his brother just not wanting to go to
go to church. But that's what they did. And I
think he was there's grief and mistreatment and his journey
(05:28):
into academia and intellectualism. He he got into some pretty
dark stuff. And, you know, I'm sure he had long
periods of depression and all sorts going on. It was
very dark. And so he just went hard. You can
sense this hardening and this completely turning away from what
(05:52):
he understood at that time, what Christianity was or who
God represented. And he lingered in that for a long time,
a long time. But what's amazing is, and what you
read in Lewis's story is that you can see the
pursuit of God in his life, that God pursuing his
heart through his interactions, through the people he met, through
(06:15):
the places he was in, and even through his story.
You can really see that.
S2 (06:20):
Author Leah Bowden is with us. She's written a fictionalized
biography of the great C.S. Lewis for kids and for adults.
You say you went into some dark places, like the
literature he was reading or or what do you mean
by that?
S3 (06:36):
Yeah, I mean, the things he was reading and I
think he was quite interested in the occult for a while.
And yeah, there were some really dark stuff.
S2 (06:48):
One of the things that I have recognized when I
read Lewis is that you can see some of his
mental habits come through in his stories. In other words,
you can tell that he learned how to take some
of those thoughts captive, how to take those thoughts captive
and make them obedient to Christ. And because this is
(07:09):
something I've learned in my own life, I can see that.
See those things that he learned showing up in his stories?
Does that make sense?
S3 (07:17):
It makes complete sense. And I too have had to
learn to do that. And that's such an important part
of our discipleship journey, is holding those thoughts captive and
submitting those our minds and bodies lives to Jesus. And yeah,
I think he he there was a battle in his mind.
And part of I guess when an intellectual turns to Jesus,
(07:40):
I think, you know, many evangelists have told me they're
the hardest to reach because there's so much to contend with.
And yet the amazing thing about Lewis's story is that he,
the people that were in his life and these, these
relationships like Tolkien, who began to influence his thinking. And
(08:03):
because he wanted he was a person who loved that
discursive setup. You know, the kind of rooms where you're
talking about deep things and intellectual conversations and, you know,
everything from the little rooms in modeling college to the
the pubs in England. He was this he wanted those conversations.
And so the right people, the significant relationships began to form,
(08:27):
which then started to guide and inform his thinking, which
then his heart eventually caught up with.
S2 (08:36):
He gave me an on ramp to Jesus. If you
listen to Perry and Shawna, you know my story. I
was in fifth grade. It was after recess. The bell
had just rung and I got talking with Lenny Melberg
and all the boys were surrounding me, and Lenny and
Lenny shared with me the gospel. He said, Perry, I
(08:57):
hope that someday you can become saved. Now, I had
asked Jesus to come into my heart, but I was
too embarrassed to say that to anybody, and I just
needed somebody to help me fully cross the line. And
I know the Holy Spirit gave Lenny those words. Perry,
I hope that someday you can become saved. It was
(09:19):
a beautiful on ramp to the gospel. And when he
said that, what immediately came out of my heart was,
I am a Christian, and I really meant it. And
at that moment, the Holy Spirit just flooded my heart
with the love of God, and I knew that I
was in the family. It was a beautiful moment for C.S. Lewis.
(09:40):
He started his life in faith. His mom was the
joy of his heart. But then he lost his mom
and his heart became hard. So talk about his journey
back to the father. His his return home to the father.
Was it Tolkien who influenced him most.
S3 (10:00):
So it would seem there were many, many aspects to
that journey back to to the father Father's heart. And
he moved to The Kilns in Oxford, which is the
house that many people know about. It's still there. And
him and his brother decided to start going to the
local church, just a little Anglican church where he worshipped
(10:21):
for many, many years. And so I think there was
a shift there in that just he made a decision, okay,
I'm going to enter into this. I'm going to try
this again. And in the midst of that, he was,
you know, meeting new people at Oxford. He was, in
these conversations, starting to form friendships with people like Tolkien
that somebody else called Dyson. And the the story goes,
(10:45):
I mean, he was attending church and was beginning to
hear preachers and started to explore that a little bit more.
But there's a great story where him and Tolkien and
Dyson had been talking and talking and talking. And they
go for this walk, this beautiful country walk, which my
husband and I have walked a couple of times around,
(11:07):
the kind of just on the outside of Magdalene College,
this countryside walk and, and the walkway almost. There's not
room for more than three people to stand in a row.
And they did this walk together and they walked all
the way around and they just really bashed out. And
Tolkien really challenged C.S. Lewis's thinking and asked him, you know,
really trying to pointing to the fact that you need
(11:29):
to surrender your heart to God. And they went back,
I think, to one of the rooms, and they were
talking all night. But the real moment when he says
that this was when I gave my life to Jesus,
he was actually in a sidecar. So his his brother
had said, come on, let's go to the zoo. I mean,
it's so great. Let's go to the zoo for the day.
(11:51):
One is driving this bike. Lewis is in this sidecar
next to him and they go to a zoo called.
I think it's Wyvern. I'm trying to think maybe I
said the wrong one now. I've been to it anyway.
The one I know it well. I don't know what
happened on the way there. I don't know what I mean.
I have imagined, and I've put that into the story
for the children. But something happened. He maybe he had
(12:14):
time to really think and process. Maybe. I don't know
what was going on in his mind, but he he
says when he left to go to the zoo, he
wasn't a Christian. When he arrived at the zoo, he was.
And so that I mean, that's his words. That's what
he said. And so the great thing about writing fictionalised
biography is I got to really imagine for children what
(12:38):
might have gone through his mind in that time. But
we can we can only imagine which is what he
would want us to do. Really?
S2 (12:45):
Yeah. Where the power of saying to someone, I believe
in you. The power of hearing that from somebody else.
I remember I was recording my ahead album in Nashville
with my producer, Andy Hunt, and we were driving to
(13:06):
get lunch, and I was just talking about, you know,
for every one person who believes in you, there's a
hundred people who don't believe in you. And I was
talking regarding my music, and I was kind of I
was kind of grumbling. I was actually grumbling that there's
there's not many people who believe in me. And Andy said,
(13:27):
I believe in you. And, man, hearing that from this
amazing guy with an amazing heart and amazing talent and,
you know, doing great work in Nashville and having him say,
I believe in you just gave me so much confidence.
So there's so much power to that. And C.S. Lewis
(13:50):
actually believed in someone else that, you know, and you
need to hear this part of the story. Is it
true that Tolkien showed him the Lord of the Rings
or The Hobbit or, you know, and and he really
didn't think a whole lot of it. And Lewis said, man,
you really you really have something here. You need to
finish it. Did that happen? Anything like that?
S3 (14:13):
That's what my understanding as well, from my reading. Yes.
So they, you know, many of us who love Lewis's work,
we we have heard about the inklings, which was this
group of scholars and writers who gathered together to share
each other's work. And I think, I mean, as a writer,
it's quite a vulnerable thing to sit in a room
(14:33):
and say, hey, let me read this draft out to you.
I don't think I've ever done that. Maybe to my husband.
And they would sit around and read each other's work
and critique it. And so that happened a lot. But
I my understanding is that Tolkien and Lewis had a
different level of that relationship where they would meet together,
just the two of them. And yeah, I think Dawkins shared,
(14:54):
shared his work and would say that almost Lewis was
his greatest fan. He was the one who said, you've
got to get this out. And I do address that.
I write about this scene where they're in the Eagle
and Child pub, and they get thrown out because they've
been in there for so long talking. And in this scene,
Tolkien is reading out a part of The Hobbit to C.S.
(15:15):
Lewis and describing the houses and things like that. And C.S.
Lewis is just encouraging him, saying, you have to get
this out. This is amazing work. And there's this interaction
between them, both of this encouragement and really. Yeah, kind
of sort of really supporting and promoting each other, which
I think is amazing in friendship. And writers need those
(15:36):
kind of relationships, don't they?
S2 (15:38):
The power of friendship. So is it accurate to say
that Tolkien had some self-doubt about his work?
S3 (15:46):
That is my understanding as well. I mean, we you know,
we've those of us who have read probably similar things
and similar accounts, but yes, that is that is also
my understanding from my research is that he did have doubt,
which I think is human. You know, and I think
you don't often meet a writer who's about to put
some work out into the world or even, you know,
gets hold of their their book for the first time
(16:08):
and said, this is incredible. There's always doubts. And that's
why we need we can't do this in isolation. We
have to have those people around us. And I'm so glad.
I mean, how cool that Louis got to play that
part in in Tolkien's life. Yeah.
S2 (16:22):
Talk to that person who, you know, they've got that
creative bent in them. They just have to write or
they need to to create lyrics and they need to,
you know, do the creative process. And they think that
they don't have anything, you know, they've put something together,
but they think that it's junk. Talk to that person.
S3 (16:42):
Oh, I mean, I feel that I understand that completely.
I think it's really. I've published three books now, and
it'll be four by the end of the summer this year.
And you still hear very loudly the voice of the
critic saying, you know, this is not great. What are
you doing? Who do you think you are? And that
can happen in the beginning, in process, when you just
(17:03):
get in those lyrics or those words on the page,
or it can happen when you hold your book in
your hand. And as a Christian, knowing that God has
given you something, as an offering, as a gift. We
do that so humbly anyway. We hold that with open hands.
And so I would say, I encourage anybody who is
pursuing a creative life or has something that they'd love
(17:26):
to share with the world and their writing. It is
definitely to get it down. Get it down on paper,
get it out. You know, the Bible says we commit
our work to the Lord and it will succeed. I'm
a true believer in just committing all our words and
writing to God at the beginning of every process, and
dedicating that to him. And then I would find get
around people who who do understand it. It's, uh, it
(17:48):
can be quite an isolating place as a writer, as
a creator, because not everyone gets it. Not everyone sees
the what goes into it. And I'm not talking about, uh,
you know, the kind of pain of the art I'm
talking about. Just it's so different from any other job,
from any of the kind of thing that you create
or put out there. And so get around people, find community,
(18:10):
find just the ones or twos who you can say, hey,
I'm feeling vulnerable about this. Can I can you look
at this with me? And that's really important. I'm thankful
that I've found people like that who I can share
this with. And yeah, but don't listen to the voice
of the critic. Listen. Listen to the voice of the
Holy Spirit. And I think it's really important to say
(18:31):
to those people that if you have something, I know
what it's like when you have an idea and you
can't shake it, you wake up thinking about it. You
have to do it and do something about it. And
even if it's for an audience of one, it's always
worth getting it down on paper.
S2 (18:51):
Science fiction changed my life. Well, specifically Star Wars. It
was the Star Wars for that was the first Star
Wars that came out. And I remember that scene where
Luke Skywalker, he's working for his uncle. He's he's basically
a farm boy, but he feels this, this longing for
(19:12):
more in his life. He doesn't know what the more is.
And he he walks up on this little sand dune
and the two suns of Tatooine are setting, and the
music swells, and you can just feel the longing of
his heart, and that he knows there's more for him
in his life. And I remember as a teenager watching
that scene, and it just moved me because I grew
(19:34):
up in this small town, northern Michigan, didn't really know
what life was about. And I had this sense, though,
that God had something for me. God had more for me.
Science fiction has the ability to communicate powerful truths. It
also can communicate really dark things. But science fiction at
(19:56):
its best, really communicates deep spiritual truths. And I think
that's why C.S. Lewis wrote his own science fiction trilogy.
So one of my favorite works of Lewis is the
Space Trilogy. And not many, not many people share my
joy in the space trilogy. And I'm back in it again,
(20:17):
and I just can't get away from it. Why is
this trilogy so compelling?
S3 (20:23):
Okay, so I haven't read the Space trilogy, and my
I'm so sorry. You know, I was, uh. The thing is,
I was writing three books in 18 months, so I
was walking alongside three wonderful, you know, men and women
of Christ from the past. And so there was only
so much I had. I did read constantly for a year,
(20:45):
but I did not get to the space trilogy, much
to my father's disappointment as well, because he is a
huge fan. He has read them so I can speak
on behalf of him because he's talked to me about them.
I just think it's, you know, not everyone gets to them,
do they? And they don't always understand that kind of genre.
I think people find Lewis through their for their faith journey,
(21:05):
and so they will automatically go to all those books
and those things. They are on my list of things
to read. I mean, you know, you maybe you could
tell us why should we read them? What is it?
What what's drawn you to them? Can I turn the
microphone back on you?
S2 (21:19):
Oh, boy. Yeah. That's great.
S3 (21:21):
How many times have you read them?
S2 (21:24):
Probably five.
S3 (21:26):
Wow. Okay. I'm definitely going to read them now.
S2 (21:29):
Five times, I guess. I love science fiction. And of course,
I love the story of redemption. And the story of
redemption is wrapped up in the space trilogy. And also
it shows how our lives we become many redeemers when
we give our lives over to Jesus. And, you know,
(21:51):
it just explores the whole idea of a Christian worldview
looking at the universe. And and if if there are
other planets that have sentient beings, they are beings that
are created in the image of God. And God is
working out a story on their planets that are that
are similar to ours. So it just creates a wonder
and it creates a deeper appreciation for a universe that's
(22:15):
created by God.
S4 (22:16):
That's amazing.
S3 (22:18):
I mean, that'll sell them.
S2 (22:22):
There you go.
S3 (22:23):
Well done.
S2 (22:27):
I have a sense of completion, and I've had a
40 plus year career in radio. I don't think I'm
completely done with radio, but I really do feel like
I've done everything that the Lord has asked me to
do in my radio ministry. And that's that's a good
feeling to know that you have finished this part of
(22:49):
the race really well. And C.S. Lewis, at the end
of his life had that really strong sense of completion.
I understand that, you know, C.S. Lewis, he died when
he was just 64. And I just turned 64 in March.
And I don't have the sense of foreboding that that
I'm going to pass away because C.S. Lewis was 64.
But it's just I actually find a kind of a
(23:11):
connection with Lewis because of that. But at any rate,
I understand that about a week before he died, he
was living with his brother Warren, and he said to
his brother, I've done everything that God has asked me
to do. I've written everything he's asked me to write.
I'm ready to go home. Have you heard this?
S4 (23:35):
Yeah, yeah I have.
S3 (23:37):
He was ready. The crazy thing about his ending story
is that he had some health issues. He had, like,
a blood poisoning. He had kidney issues, but he had
a heart attack and went into a coma. They thought
he was done. And the story goes that, you know,
they're all kind of starting to grieve the loss of C.S. Lewis.
(23:58):
And he comes out of this coma and sits up
and asks for a cup of tea. You know, I mean,
that's just like, wow. And he keeps going, you know,
and ends up back home. And and he did have
to then he died at home in the kilns and
he couldn't go back upstairs. They brought all his stuff downstairs.
And yeah, his brother was a faithful carer to him
(24:21):
and was there at the end. And yeah, that's what
I have read too. Is that his. He was ready
and he didn't fight it. It's interesting isn't it. I,
I think we, we do have a, I guess our
21st century view of death. And as Christians, even we're
constantly thinking the right outcome is to stay alive, to
(24:45):
be healthy, to be well, to to pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray.
But when you get someone who says, you know I,
this might not seem right to everybody else, and I
know you'll all miss me, but actually it's my time.
And we find that we find that hard on earth side.
We do find that really difficult. But I mean, what
a what a legacy he's left. I mean, he did
(25:06):
a lot, didn't he? In just over six decades that
he was on the earth. And that part of his story,
I mean, when he did die, he died on the
same day as JFK was assassinated. He died on the
same day as Aldous Huxley, the author. The British died.
So it was almost understated because so much was going on,
(25:27):
obviously here in the States that it was it was
a small kind of okay, he's gone.
S2 (25:34):
His way of saying, I'm ready. Just reminds me so
much of Paul saying, I've fought the fight, I've finished
the race, I've kept the faith, and now there's a
crown waiting for me. I hear that in Lewis. The
way Lewis goes out. And that's the way I want
to go out.
S4 (25:50):
Yeah. Me too. Yeah. Me too.
S3 (25:53):
It's so inspiring, isn't it? And, you know, writing this
whole series. You know, I'm writing it for middle grade.
All the books, they tell the story of a whole life.
So they all have a death scene. Spoiler alert for everybody. Sorry,
but the penultimate chapter of all these books in this
series have a death scene. And so I've it's interesting
then kind of getting myself into that place of being
(26:16):
able to write that and really read about what do
we know has happened, and how am I going to
present this to a younger audience, and particularly in the
first two books that are out at the moment? I
felt very emotional, like very emotional, like when I finished
that chapter, writing that out and recognizing the impact that
(26:39):
they had made and them finishing well, like you just said,
like Paul finishing that race. Well, knowing that this isn't
the end and what a great hope. What a great
hope we have.
S2 (26:53):
Man. I want to finish that. Well, like CS Lewis
did and like Paul did, I have fought the good fight.
I have kept the faith. I have finished the race.
Now there's a crown of righteousness waiting for me. Maybe
you have a suffering friend in your life, a hurting
person in your life. I do. I've talked about my
(27:17):
suffering friend on the show. My brother has suffered very deeply,
emotionally and spiritually throughout all of his life. And really,
the the suffering began when he was a teenager. And
as a person in my early 20s, seeing my brother suffer,
(27:37):
I realized, oh, I was I was signing up for
a lifetime of being there for my brother. I was
praying early on that he would be healed and that
he would have a good life, but he's not really
gotten better. So it's been a lifetime of of caring
for him. And we're talking about the story of C.S. Lewis.
(27:59):
And he has something very similar to this that happened
in his life.
S3 (28:04):
One thing that really, really stands out to me is
that when he was in World War One, he had
a friend. Him and his friend promised each other that
if either of them died at war, that the other
one would look after their family, so they would look
after the father or the mother. And in Lewis's case,
it would have been his father. In his friend's case,
(28:27):
it was his mother. And so they made this pact,
they made this promise. And Lewis's friend died, and he
fulfilled that promise and to the end of, you know,
quite late into Lewis's life, he cared for this, this
friend's mother. And she's a big part of his story.
Lots of people have read about her before, but I've
(28:47):
tied that into my story, too, and just that commitment
to being faithful, even after death, to a promise that
you've made to a friend speaks so powerfully of somebody's character,
and that really stood out to me.
S2 (29:02):
How old was he when he was in the war?
S3 (29:04):
He was drafted, so he was drafted in Oxford. So
he was like 19. He was very young. Yeah. So
he would have been in his early 20s to make
a promise like that. That's incredible, isn't it? Who would
do that today?
S2 (29:17):
If you have a suffering friend in your life like
I do, just keep showing up. Just keep encouraging them.
Just keep bringing some light into their life.
S1 (29:30):
Thanks for letting Barry and Shawna walk the real life
journey with you. The content from the Perry and Shawna
podcast comes from their live show Barry and Shawna Mornings
on 89.3 Moody Radio, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Reach out to
us by texting 800 968 8930. And please subscribe.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.