January 12, 2025 • 28 mins
Finding answers amongst the ashes is the job of the Arson Squad. When most of the clues go up in smoke, it’s a race against time to find the fire lighter.
This is a story about 49 days, 17 fires and the one clue that changed everything.
Want to help us solve cases just like these? Let’s Join Forces.
Find out more about a career with WA Police: https://letsjoinforces.wa.gov.au/
Disclaimer:
This podcast may contain references to violence, explicit material and sexual abuse and may be disturbing for some listeners.
If this content has caused you distress or you need support with issues related to abuse or trauma, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14.
Follow us on social media:
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WA.Police
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wa_police/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/WA_Police
- TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@wapolice
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/wapolice1829
Copyright and Privacy Policies:
www.wa.gov.au/organisation/western-australia-police-force/wa-police-force-privacy-statement
Credits
Executive Producer: Joey Catanzaro
Producer and Host: Sandra Di Girolamo
Assistant Producer: Courtney Atkinson
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
They've all got different reasons for doing what
they do, and I've never reallyunderstood what motivates them
to light fires.
I'm Detective Senior ConstableAdrian Yates from the Police
Arson Squad.
My job is to find answersamongst the ashes.
This is the story about 49 days,17 fires, and one clue in this
(00:23):
investigation that changedeverything.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
This
SPEAKER_03 (00:41):
is
SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
Persons of Interest, the WA Police Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:59):
The smell of an Australian bushfire is like
nothing else.
That thick smoke, the heat andthe noise that comes from those
flames.
If you've ever been close to anout of control fire, you'll know
what I mean.
Even from a distance, the smellis unmistakable.
Hello, I'm Sandra Di Girolamoand welcome back to Persons of
Interest.
Today we're talking fires.
(01:21):
We're talking about people whodeliberately light them and the
people who catch them.
Welcome to Adrian Yates from theArsons Squad.
Hi, thank you for being here.
Hi,
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Sandra.
Thanks for having me thismorning.
SPEAKER_02 (01:34):
How would you describe people who light fires?
SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
They're very unique.
They come from all sorts ofdifferent backgrounds.
Their ages vary.
I can never really understandwhy certain people have certain
motivations to cause them tolight fires.
SPEAKER_02 (01:51):
Because it's dangerous, isn't it?
People can die.
People have died in deliberatelylit fires and homes have been
lost.
SPEAKER_01 (01:58):
Yeah, of course.
You know, bushfires,particularly bigger bushfires,
are a huge risk to thecommunity.
As you pointed out, people havedied from fires.
They cause a significant amountof property damage.
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
Yeah, imagine losing everything you own and finding
out that it's because someonewas playing with matches down
the road.
SPEAKER_01 (02:16):
Yeah, well, it's devastating.
People quite often lose theirhouses and they have to start
again from scratch.
SPEAKER_02 (02:22):
And fires in some ways are like the perfect crime,
aren't they?
Because the evidence almost getsburned along with the crime.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Yes.
So traditionally we find thatdetecting and apprehending arson
offenders is one of the mostchallenging parts of our job and
quite often it can be thesmallest clues in the
investigation which willultimately lead to identifying
that person for a number offires.
SPEAKER_02 (02:46):
That leads us very nicely into the story that we'll
talk about today.
How does this story start foryou?
Music
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
It was just a normal office day for me at the ARSA
squad.
Part of my job would be just toreview, you know, fires and
incidents of fires, draw anysort of links between any fires
and see if there's a pattern ofanything that's going on in
particular.
And we'd sort of picked up thereare a number of fires happening
southern suburbs ways and wenoticed that they were at
particular times of the day.
(03:19):
So we got our team together, wedrove out to the particular
locations, we examined the firescenes.
SPEAKER_02 (03:27):
Because the flames aren't still burning at this
point right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:29):
No so we will come in quite often the next day so
the fire might be let's say foran example during the night we
will attend the next day becausewe need the daylight to
obviously investigate the scenethoroughly.
There's a handful of fires whatfour or five?
We identified about six soobviously we went out
investigated all those firesindividually.
When you say
SPEAKER_02 (03:50):
that sorry when you say you investigated them all
individually what do youactually do?
So I'm picturing you walking outthere in your safety boots
through a bushland literallylooking on the floor for looking
through the charred remains, Isuppose, of this bush?
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
Yeah, so we would do like a grid search of the area
to see if anything's beendropped, if there's some sort of
incendiary device.
SPEAKER_02 (04:12):
Sorry?
SPEAKER_01 (04:13):
Incendiary device is essentially something that the
offender might leave to startthe fire and it gives them time
to get away from the scene.
So in other words, they canlight something, place it into
the place where it might lightthe bush, then leave the area,
the fire will start and thenthey're no longer on the scene
or able to be seen and long gonebefore the fire actually starts
(04:34):
before somebody actually seesit.
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
So you're doing this grid search of these six fires.
What do you find?
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
So early on, we don't really find much at all.
We...
we're closely looking at theground because we have a very
strong belief that whoever'sresponsible for this is only
there within a couple ofminutes, if probably, you know,
if not less time.
SPEAKER_03 (04:53):
How do you know that?
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Just because the fires are quite small and the
person's never really seen byanybody in particular and the
fires are late at night, earlyhours in the morning.
So you're
SPEAKER_02 (05:04):
thinking there's one person who's just going out
there for kicks, lighting somefires?
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
Yeah, and they're all in a similar area too.
We identified a number of housesin the particular streets that
we were looking at for wherethese fires started.
And we matched up a particularcar as one that was common
amongst all of these fires.
SPEAKER_02 (05:22):
What, because people at those houses said they saw a
car?
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
No, so we would go bang on their doors, get their
CCTV, because we'd know at whattime the fires would start.
And then we would identify at acertain time and go, okay, can
you show us your CCTV for thatparticular timeframe?
We would review the CCTV.
And then we identified overthree or four fires, a
particular vehicle verydistinctive, would be seen on
(05:45):
the CCTV.
What kind of
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
car was it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
It was a silver-coloured BMW.
SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
And could you see who was driving it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
No, we couldn't.
All we could see was literallythe car driving in the street
and then the fire would startand then the car would drive
out.
And then we had a couple ofinstances later where the car
would pull up on the side of theroad.
We could see somebody lightingsome sort of material inside the
car.
Like what?
We're not really sure.
It could have been paper oranything that would just ignite
(06:13):
quickly and And then they couldget it out of the car because
obviously they don't want toburn themselves or potentially
set the car on fire.
So we looked at that CCTV,showed them lighting something
inside the car.
They threw it out the window andthen the bush would ignite and
they would drive off straightaway.
SPEAKER_02 (06:25):
So you could see that.
You could see someone in the carlighting something.
You didn't know what he waslighting or she was lighting and
throwing it into the bush andyou see the bush go up in
flames.
What kind of bush area are wetalking about?
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
So this particular one was just bush amongst
residential housing.
Close to houses.
Yeah, literally across.
the road.
Fortunately, the wind was goingthe other way.
But yeah, it was literally acase of the car pulling up on
the bush.
On the side of the road,opposite three or four brand new
houses where people were livingand asleep at night, the bush
would immediately ignite.
(06:57):
Because it's the middle ofsummer, the bush doesn't take
much.
As everyone knows, it's hot anddry in summer here.
And the bush would immediatelycatch fire and then the person
would drive away in the car.
SPEAKER_02 (07:07):
Wow, so those people across the road would have been
really keen to make sure youcaught the person lighting these
fires.
SPEAKER_01 (07:13):
For them, it's almost like a bit of a close
call.
All it takes is the wind to begoing in the opposite direction
and all of a sudden they'reasleep and their houses are
suddenly getting embers hittingtheir house.
Not to
SPEAKER_02 (07:24):
mention all the smoke as well.
I mean, that can affect people'shealth as well, as we know.
SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
Yep.
And then obviously if they'vegot kids and their kids get
frightened and it's somethingthat they always remember.
SPEAKER_02 (07:36):
So you've got this guy or girl lighting something
and throwing it.
You know what car they'redriving.
Can you see the number plate ofthe car?
SPEAKER_01 (07:43):
No.
And that was one of the mostprobably frustrating parts of
the investigation was we couldidentify the car clearly, but
But because people have camerasfacing towards the front of the
house and obviously the streetis running at opposite angles,
at a 90-degree angle, we cannever capture the registration.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Oh, because it's driving past the house.
It's driving past.
So you can see the side of
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
the car.
You can see the side of the car.
SPEAKER_02 (08:02):
Oh, how frustrating.
So how many shots do you have ofthis car driving past that
you...
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
So I think early on we probably had at least half a
dozen images of this particularcar.
It had very distinctive rims onit.
So we knew that we were lookingat a car with very distinctive
rims.
And every single time we justknew straight away we saw the
silver car and we saw thedistinctive rims.
We were becoming so frustratedwith not having any luck that we
(08:28):
started trawling the local CCTVat petrol stations, the 24-hour
ones nearby, hoping that thiscar might have pulled into a
petrol station at in a certaintime frame, hoping we might pick
it up there.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Any luck?
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
But no, we didn't have any luck.
SPEAKER_02 (08:43):
Are you worried that these fires are getting more and
more intense?
Are you worried about what'sgoing to happen next?
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Yeah, of course.
At that stage, it was very earlyon in the bushfire season.
I knew that the worst of it was,you know, still to come.
And this person's behaviour wascontinuing.
It wasn't escalating, but it wasconstant.
So what happens next?
We went to a particular fire inthat same area and it had the
typical characteristics of whatwe'd been investigating all
(09:11):
along.
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
So you thought it was the same
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
person, this person in the car that you...
Yeah, we thought it was the sameperson because the area was the
same, the characteristics of howthe fire had started and the
relationship between the bushand the street.
They're all there.
They're all common traits.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
You say characteristics with how this
fire was started.
What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
Certain people will light fires in particular areas.
So for example, if they go intothe bush in the middle of
nowhere, they might walk on aparticular track and light a
fire along a track.
They might light two or threefires along the same track.
Then you might get another firein another bush area a few k's
away and then you'll get anotherfire started by a track.
So generally, we find thatpeople that do a series of fires
(09:52):
will have a common way oflighting fires or a particular
method they like to go about itbecause they feel comfortable
with that and they know that...
And they got away with it.
Yeah, they got away with it.
So if they get away with it,they can repeat that behaviour
and they feel comfortable andthey think that they can
continue that pattern ofbehaviour and not get caught and
(10:14):
be comfortable in the sense thatthey haven't been caught for
one, so they continue thatbehaviour thinking they'll never
get caught.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
And so you get out to this fire thinking, we know
this is probably the sameperson.
What happens?
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
I sort of thought, I'll have a look at...
The verge in particular, alittle bit more thoroughly this
time because I knew this personwas in a car and I thought
maybe, you know, we might getlucky because they have to wind
down the window or maybe open acard or something to throw
something out the window.
They might have pulled up theremomentarily.
MUSIC So I just happened to bewalking along the verge between
(10:52):
the road and the bush, which isprobably about two or three
metres wide.
And just by chance, I just saw aloose piece of paper lying
there.
I sort of looked at it and went,it's not burnt or anything.
I sort of looked at it a littlebit more and then there was a
bit of rubbish around us.
There always is a lot of thesefires, you know, bits of paper
and maybe some...
(11:12):
bottles or cans or whatever.
So I just looked at this pieceof paper.
I sort of unravelled it.
It was all
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
screwed up?
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Yeah, it was all screwed up.
And I unravelled it and Irealised, I could see it was a
Bunnings receipt.
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
A Bunnings receipt?
SPEAKER_01 (11:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
What was on the receipt?
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
I can't recall what it was specifically, what the
transaction was for.
Right.
But I noticed the date and timewas of interest to me because
the date and time was a coupleof hours before the fire.
And I went, oh, that'sinteresting.
So I thought, oh, okay, well.
SPEAKER_02 (11:40):
And it could be nothing, right?
Yeah, that's right.
It could be that someone droppedthat out their window or.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
That's right.
And that's what I was way out ofmind.
I was going, oh, this could benothing.
And I thought, well, we've gotno CCTV in the street.
So this might be something.
It might not be.
But if I grab it and it'snothing, well, then I've lost
nothing.
So I said to my colleague, we'llgrab this and we'll go to
Bunnings.
I remember driving straight tothe particular Bunnings, which
was only 15, five, six, seven,eight Ks away.
(12:06):
And I remember going in there,speaking to the manager and just
saying, look, I've got a receipthere.
Can you guys just bring up thetransaction on your CCTV?
I
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
assume people are pretty good about that.
Like you walk into a Bunnings,the arson squad, then they're
hardly going to say no, right?
SPEAKER_01 (12:20):
Yeah, no, we never normally had any problems with
the bigger shopping centres andthe bigger retailers.
They know that we're trying todo what we need to do and
they're generally happy to helpus out.
If anything go above, try andhelp us out.
So, yeah, we spoke to themanager and she took us upstairs
into the office and shereprinted out the receipt and
(12:40):
said, is this it?
I said, yeah, this is it.
And she brought up all thescreens for the CCTV.
Because you had a
SPEAKER_02 (12:46):
time to marry it up.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
And I know from experience that the CCTV for
Bunnings is pretty close to thetransaction.
Everything sort of marries up,like their systems for the
register match up to theirsystems on the CCTV.
SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
Oh, so they can say that this transaction matches
that piece of vision.
Yeah.
They've got a system that doesthat.
Oh, that makes life easier
SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
for you.
Yeah.
So anyway, so she brought up allthe CCTV, showed this particular
person walking in, coming intothe store, at the counter.
SPEAKER_02 (13:16):
What did this person look like?
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
So this person was just a middle-aged male person,
just dressed in a pair of jeansand a tank top, just looked like
a normal average person.
Okay.
And they came in, they were atthe desk and did the transaction
and...
and then left the store.
And do you remember what theybought?
I think it was a refund frommemory.
I don't think it was an actualpurchase.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
I was about to ask how they paid for it because if
they paid for it by credit card,obviously that's great for you.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
Yeah, no, I think...
I think from memory, it wasactually a refund of an item
rather than an actual purchasebecause I know they went to the
returns counter, not actuallygrabbing a particular item and
going through a checkout like anormal person coming in to buy
something would ordinarily do.
SPEAKER_02 (13:59):
And obviously at this point, this still could
just be a receipt.
This guy's worst crime couldhave been that he threw a
receipt out the window.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:07):
Yeah.
And there are all sorts ofthings that we have to consider
because-
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Imagine the arson squad knocking on your door for
littering.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
Well, yeah, that's right.
Or having to explain yourselfwhy your receipt's at a fire
that you've had nothing to dowith.
And we've had to do that in thepast.
But yeah, so obviously we hadthe CCTV inside and I remember
driving into the car park ofthis particular Bunnings and
looking up at the entrance andthere was this massive great
camera out the front right overthe entrance.
And I thought, oh, this is goodbecause if this person has
driven in this particular car,then the camera would have
(14:36):
picked them up.
And I said, to the manager, canyou just, you know, cut to the
big camera out the front?
And we watched this person walkout of the entrance and then
head over to the car park.
And literally as soon as thecamera pointed into the
direction of the car park, Icould see the car straight away.
SPEAKER_02 (14:52):
Bingo,
SPEAKER_01 (14:53):
it's the car that you've been looking for.
It was the car that we werelooking for.
I can remember sort of lookingat my mate almost like we were,
I was with my colleague andjust, you know, like fist
bumping each other going, howgood's this?
SPEAKER_03 (15:05):
Let's go, don't get off! You're
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
listening to Persons of Interest, the WA Police
podcast.
If you want to be part of theaction, visit
letsjoinforces.wa.gov.au to findout more.
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
You're listening to Persons of Interest and I'm here
with Detective Senior ConstableAdrian Yates from the Arsons
Squad.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
We were sort of praying that this person walked
towards this particular car.
And sure enough, they did.
They went straight to thedriver's side, jumped in the car
and drove off.
SPEAKER_02 (15:46):
You can see a number plate at this point.
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
Well, at that particular stage, we couldn't.
So we were actually really happythat we'd found the car and
found the person, but then wewere still a little bit
frustrated that we couldn't getthe registration of the play off
the cars within Bunnings.
SPEAKER_02 (16:02):
But you didn't know who this guy was.
You had vision of him.
You don't have a name, do you?
SPEAKER_01 (16:06):
No, that's right.
So we didn't have a name or weknew it was a person.
They had a particular tattoo onthem.
And fortunately for us, theywere wearing a tank top in the
Bunnings.
So the tattoo
SPEAKER_02 (16:18):
really...
Was
SPEAKER_01 (16:19):
on their shoulder and it was really prominent and
really stood out.
So we thought, oh, well, that'sgood at least.
So this person goes back, getsinto the car, drives out.
And when you're looking at amultitude of cameras from
outside of Bunnings, that wasthe car.
The Bunnings was near some othershops and we then walked around
to some other shops which sortof covered the roads in and out.
(16:40):
Again, like you said, lookingfor a number plate.
No joy again.
We just had a person that had...
driven to a Bunnings, conducteda transaction and left in that
car.
We didn't know whether or notthat was the person that had
been doing the fires.
It was just a matter of, well,we've got someone driving that
car on that particular day, twohours before that fire.
That's enough.
(17:00):
And I use the term, you know, sowhat?
What does that prove for ourcase?
It doesn't prove anything otherthan someone driving that car
two hours before.
We've got a very good intelanalyst in our office and she,
you know, I just said to her,look, this is the car we're
looking at.
Can you, you know, work yourmagic is the phrase I like to
use.
She's brilliant.
So we, you know, we do stufflike...
(17:22):
go through Department ofTransport records.
We have our own databases thatwe use.
We might just do a genericsearch term on silver BMW.
And I've got a couple of guys inmy office who are very good with
cars.
I know the car.
So if I say to them, what yearis that BMW or whatever, they
can go, oh, it's between thisbracket.
So we put all that informationinto our database under search
(17:43):
terms.
She'll do the same for theDepartment of Transport.
We might get a list of, say, 10cars in the greater sort of
southern suburbs region.
So for them, it's almost like aprocess of elimination.
And there was sort of one or twothat really stood out that were
like, okay, these could be one,that could be one of these two.
And then we just drove around tothese particular houses that we
(18:03):
knew these cars were registeredto.
I remember driving past andseeing this car in the driveway.
SPEAKER_02 (18:09):
And you
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
knew it?
I knew straight away that wasthe car we were looking at.
The particular rims on it weredistinctive.
We were confident that's the carthat we'd been looking for the
entire
SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
investigation.
So you've got him, you run inand arrest him?
SPEAKER_01 (18:21):
No, so all we had at that stage was, you know, a car
parked at a house, you know, amale person with a tattoo and
stuff driving that car to theBunnings that day and this car
connected to all these fires.
So then we had to think abouthow we're going to put this
person...
in that car at these fires.
So we have a whole range oftechnology that we can use.
(18:43):
That technology is very good andthat technology will tell us
where that car was at aparticular time and location and
we could use that technology toprove that car's relationship to
the fire at any given time.
What happens next?
Essentially, it's a bit of awaiting game because...
SPEAKER_02 (18:59):
You're waiting for him to light another fire?
SPEAKER_01 (19:01):
Yeah, I know it sounds silly, but that's
essentially what it is.
It's a waiting game because...
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
Well, it sounds dangerous.
You say it sounds silly.
It sounds dangerous because hecould light a fire that could be
very dangerous.
So you're waiting for him to dothat?
SPEAKER_01 (19:12):
It does sound dangerous, but the difficulty
for us is we have to be surethat it's the person that's
lighting these fires because ifwe strike too early or if we try
and make an arrest too early andwe don't have any evidence, then
our case falls apart.
He
SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
walks free anyway,
SPEAKER_01 (19:27):
I suppose.
Yeah, and then essentially thisperson's still in the community
and then the risk to thecommunity is still there.
It's still a risk because thisperson hasn't been dealt with
before the courts.
It's a catch-22 because youneed...
There's a balance betweengetting the evidence you need to
make sure your case is going tobe sound versus the risk of them
potentially lighting a fire,which is a big fire and causes
(19:50):
some damage.
It's a
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
big call to make,
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
isn't it?
Yeah, so we monitor what's goingon very closely.
There was a couple of otherfires that happened that were
just smaller fires by the sideof the road and we're able to
put the car at both of thosefires.
SPEAKER_02 (20:06):
Why wouldn't you just be following this guy so
you could catch him lightingthose fires?
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Yeah.
A lot of people just wouldprobably naturally assume that
we could do that.
But the problem with arsonistsis you can never actually tell
when they're going to go andlight a fire.
We had nothing to say that itwas going to be at four o'clock
on this particular day on aweek-to-week basis because these
people with what they do is sosporadic.
You can't actually predict whatthey're going to do.
(20:31):
And this was no exception.
For us to be able to Monitorthis bloke 24-7 is hugely
resource intensive and it's justnot practical.
But we sort of knew in the backof our minds that the more fires
that continued and the moretimes that car was destroyed, At
those particular fires, thestronger our case was getting.
Late January, there was a firedown in the same area.
(20:52):
But this was a much bigger firecompared to the other ones.
It had happened on lateafternoon, hot, dry day.
The way the fire started wasidentical, but the bush area
that it burnt out was a lotgreater.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
How big?
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
It was quite a few hectares.
SPEAKER_02 (21:07):
Near some houses?
SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
Getting close to some houses, yeah.
We thought at that stage, youknow, it's getting a bit risky.
So we decided that we wouldessentially bring the
investigation to a resolution.
And then we sat off his house ina covert location.
And we really wanted him to be,again, driving the car just to
show the continuity of him usingthe car.
SPEAKER_02 (21:31):
So he leaves his house, you're down the road,
what happens?
SPEAKER_01 (21:34):
Yeah, so he leaves his house, we wait for him to
drive down the road and then weconducted a roadside stop on
him.
You pulled him over?
Yeah, we pulled him over.
We knew he didn't have alicence, so...
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
he doesn't have a driver's
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
licence?
No, he didn't have a driver'slicence, so...
Does
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
he know that you're the arson squad or does he think
you're, you know,
SPEAKER_01 (21:50):
the traffic cops?
Well, at that stage I'm notactually sure because we were
all kitted up but we had ourarson squad t-shirts on
underneath, spoke to him abouthis licence and then said, We
want to speak to you about aseries of fires.
Placed him under arrest for anumber of fires.
SPEAKER_02 (22:01):
So you got him.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
You didn't
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
actually catch him in the act, but you think you
had enough at that point becauseit was escalating so much.
SPEAKER_01 (22:08):
At that stage, yeah.
And like we talked aboutearlier, there's always that
risk of if he lit another fire,it was a bigger fire which
potentially caused some damage.
We'd be kicking ourselves goingwe should have done something
earlier or whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (22:21):
So he gets arrested.
Yep.
Does he go to jail?
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
Yeah, so we arrested him, searched his car.
We didn't find anything in hiscar.
And then we immediately took himback to his house, as I said,
wanted to obviously do aninvestigative search.
SPEAKER_02 (22:33):
Looking for something that he might have lit
the fires with?
SPEAKER_01 (22:35):
Yeah, so, I mean, sometimes they might have phones
or something, which they mighthave their movements recorded on
their phones, depending on wherethey're going.
They might have text messages.
In the past, I've done jobswhere people have been bragging
about fires they've lit.
They've recorded them on theirphones, done video recording of
the fire they've lit.
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
Oh, dumb
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
crims.
So there's all sorts of thingsthat you're sort of thinking in
the back of your mind.
So we go to his house, searchhis house, and then I recall
walking into the room and weopen up one of the drawers.
Which
SPEAKER_02 (23:05):
room?
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
The room that he's staying in, the room that he's
sleeping in.
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
His bedroom?
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Yeah, his bedroom, yeah.
And open the drawer and there'sa gun there.
SPEAKER_02 (23:14):
A gun?
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
Yeah, just a sawn-off shotgun just lying in
basically a sock drawer.
I was like, okay, this is a bitserious, so...
Unfortunately, we had himhandcuffed at the time.
There was no real risk to ask.
What was he
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
going to do with the gun?
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
Well, I don't really know.
And when we found out, he didn'treally say too much about it
other than, yeah, what can yousay?
The gun's sitting in yourbedroom drawer.
It had a round in it, so it wasloaded, ready to go.
Wow.
Sawed-off shotgun, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (23:39):
Wow, so now this guy gets arrested obviously for the
fires
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
and for the gun.
Yeah, so obviously there's thegun, so he's looking at a
serious firearms charge.
SPEAKER_02 (23:47):
How old is this guy?
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
He was late 40s.
Wow.
So middle-aged.
I expected
SPEAKER_02 (23:54):
him to be a kid, and I don't know if that's just my
perception.
when we talk about arsonists, Iexpect them to be, when I say
kids, I mean, you know, in theirearly 20s even, you know, late
teens, early 20s.
I don't mean kids.
I'm surprised to hear that he'sa grown-up.
SPEAKER_01 (24:09):
Yeah.
So I found that you can neverreally predict who you're going
to be dealing with in terms ofarson offenders.
SPEAKER_02 (24:19):
They come in all shapes and sizes.
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
They come from all walks of life.
They all have differentbackgrounds.
They all have differentbackgrounds.
Family backgrounds, upbringings,genders.
SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
Yeah, because I assume they're mostly male as
well.
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Yeah, and if you look at the research base, the
research base would tell youthey're predominantly mid to
late 20s, 30s, Caucasian maleperson, loner, doesn't have any
friends or anything like that,unemployed.
That would be your traditionalsort of fallback position.
But now I've found that there'sno real particular thing you
(24:52):
would focus on straight away.
You've got to keep a very openmind and you've got to really
think outside the box a littlebit and not be focused on a
particular personal thing.
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
Why do they light fires?
SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
It's a million dollar question I get asked all
the time and even by families ofpeople that we deal with and I
can never really explain it in away that people can make sense
of.
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
Well, why did this guy light the fires?
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
Yeah, so from speaking to him, the best reason
that we could get from him wasthat he had a drug habit and
when his drug habit couldn't bemaintained, he would light fires
as a means to get his kicks orget high when he couldn't access
any drugs.
So it was essentially replacingthe high he would get from the
(25:37):
drugs by lighting a fire andthen seeing the fire brigade
come out and put the fire out.
SPEAKER_02 (25:42):
Because they get their kicks out of that, like
seeing the flames and seeing thefire brigade and knowing that I
started that.
Is that part of it?
SPEAKER_01 (25:48):
Yeah, because I've dealt with volunteer
firefighters in the past thatI've charged for lighting
bushfires.
And one of the reasons that theydo that is because they get that
excitement, that adrenaline rushfrom lighting the fire and then
either watching or beinginvolved in personally the the
emergency response.
This person, obviously, hewasn't a volunteer firefighter
or anything.
He just got his kicks out oflighting the fire and seeing the
(26:10):
fire brigade turn up as areplacement for his drug hire.
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
Why the arson squad for you?
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
You just never know what you're going to get when
you come to work every day.
Like, I've got over six years'experience as a specialist arson
investigator.
Every fire that you go to isdifferent.
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
Because you've become a fire expert, haven't
you?
SPEAKER_01 (26:29):
Yeah, so I've done all the training.
I've got all the qualifications.
I had to, you know, do courses.
I've had to do a postgraduatestudy at a university.
SPEAKER_02 (26:38):
To learn how fire burns?
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
Yeah, so there's the learning, because obviously fire
is a sort of a chemical reactionprocess.
How things burn is scientificbased.
So you need to learn a littlebit and understand a little bit
about the science behind it.
So part of the postgraduatecourse that we do is about
learning about fire science andthen applying that to the
(27:00):
situation that you're in andthen coming up with a conclusion
that you can support withevidence to make a determination
on how the fire started.
SPEAKER_02 (27:07):
Well, in this case, thank goodness for that Bunnings
receipt.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
Thank you for coming in and thank you for listening.
If you think you can work withthe arson squad, maybe help them
catch a fire lighter, please getin touch with WA Police and see
if they'll have you.
I'm Sandra DiGirolamo.
You've been listening to Personsof Interest.
We are featuring differentstories completely unscripted,
true stories from WA Policeevery week.
(27:33):
You won't hear them talk soopenly anywhere else.
So subscribe if you want to hearthe others thank you so much
goodbye
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
thanks for listening to the wa police podcast you can
keep listening to the action oryou can be part of it visit
let'sjoinforces.wa.gov.au tofind out more
SPEAKER_02 (28:02):
if this content has caused you any distress or if
you need support in relation toabuse or trauma call Lifeline on
13 11 14
They've all got different reasons for doing what
they do, and I've never reallyunderstood what motivates them
to light fires.
I'm Detective Senior ConstableAdrian Yates from the Police
Arson Squad.
My job is to find answersamongst the ashes.
This is the story about 49 days,17 fires, and one clue in this
(00:23):
investigation that changedeverything.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
This
SPEAKER_03 (00:41):
is
SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
Persons of Interest, the WA Police Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:59):
The smell of an Australian bushfire is like
nothing else.
That thick smoke, the heat andthe noise that comes from those
flames.
If you've ever been close to anout of control fire, you'll know
what I mean.
Even from a distance, the smellis unmistakable.
Hello, I'm Sandra Di Girolamoand welcome back to Persons of
Interest.
Today we're talking fires.
(01:21):
We're talking about people whodeliberately light them and the
people who catch them.
Welcome to Adrian Yates from theArsons Squad.
Hi, thank you for being here.
Hi,
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Sandra.
Thanks for having me thismorning.
SPEAKER_02 (01:34):
How would you describe people who light fires?
SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
They're very unique.
They come from all sorts ofdifferent backgrounds.
Their ages vary.
I can never really understandwhy certain people have certain
motivations to cause them tolight fires.
SPEAKER_02 (01:51):
Because it's dangerous, isn't it?
People can die.
People have died in deliberatelylit fires and homes have been
lost.
SPEAKER_01 (01:58):
Yeah, of course.
You know, bushfires,particularly bigger bushfires,
are a huge risk to thecommunity.
As you pointed out, people havedied from fires.
They cause a significant amountof property damage.
SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
Yeah, imagine losing everything you own and finding
out that it's because someonewas playing with matches down
the road.
SPEAKER_01 (02:16):
Yeah, well, it's devastating.
People quite often lose theirhouses and they have to start
again from scratch.
SPEAKER_02 (02:22):
And fires in some ways are like the perfect crime,
aren't they?
Because the evidence almost getsburned along with the crime.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Yes.
So traditionally we find thatdetecting and apprehending arson
offenders is one of the mostchallenging parts of our job and
quite often it can be thesmallest clues in the
investigation which willultimately lead to identifying
that person for a number offires.
SPEAKER_02 (02:46):
That leads us very nicely into the story that we'll
talk about today.
How does this story start foryou?
Music
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
It was just a normal office day for me at the ARSA
squad.
Part of my job would be just toreview, you know, fires and
incidents of fires, draw anysort of links between any fires
and see if there's a pattern ofanything that's going on in
particular.
And we'd sort of picked up thereare a number of fires happening
southern suburbs ways and wenoticed that they were at
particular times of the day.
(03:19):
So we got our team together, wedrove out to the particular
locations, we examined the firescenes.
SPEAKER_02 (03:27):
Because the flames aren't still burning at this
point right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:29):
No so we will come in quite often the next day so
the fire might be let's say foran example during the night we
will attend the next day becausewe need the daylight to
obviously investigate the scenethoroughly.
There's a handful of fires whatfour or five?
We identified about six soobviously we went out
investigated all those firesindividually.
When you say
SPEAKER_02 (03:50):
that sorry when you say you investigated them all
individually what do youactually do?
So I'm picturing you walking outthere in your safety boots
through a bushland literallylooking on the floor for looking
through the charred remains, Isuppose, of this bush?
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
Yeah, so we would do like a grid search of the area
to see if anything's beendropped, if there's some sort of
incendiary device.
SPEAKER_02 (04:12):
Sorry?
SPEAKER_01 (04:13):
Incendiary device is essentially something that the
offender might leave to startthe fire and it gives them time
to get away from the scene.
So in other words, they canlight something, place it into
the place where it might lightthe bush, then leave the area,
the fire will start and thenthey're no longer on the scene
or able to be seen and long gonebefore the fire actually starts
(04:34):
before somebody actually seesit.
SPEAKER_02 (04:35):
So you're doing this grid search of these six fires.
What do you find?
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
So early on, we don't really find much at all.
We...
we're closely looking at theground because we have a very
strong belief that whoever'sresponsible for this is only
there within a couple ofminutes, if probably, you know,
if not less time.
SPEAKER_03 (04:53):
How do you know that?
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Just because the fires are quite small and the
person's never really seen byanybody in particular and the
fires are late at night, earlyhours in the morning.
So you're
SPEAKER_02 (05:04):
thinking there's one person who's just going out
there for kicks, lighting somefires?
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
Yeah, and they're all in a similar area too.
We identified a number of housesin the particular streets that
we were looking at for wherethese fires started.
And we matched up a particularcar as one that was common
amongst all of these fires.
SPEAKER_02 (05:22):
What, because people at those houses said they saw a
car?
SPEAKER_01 (05:25):
No, so we would go bang on their doors, get their
CCTV, because we'd know at whattime the fires would start.
And then we would identify at acertain time and go, okay, can
you show us your CCTV for thatparticular timeframe?
We would review the CCTV.
And then we identified overthree or four fires, a
particular vehicle verydistinctive, would be seen on
(05:45):
the CCTV.
What kind of
SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
car was it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
It was a silver-coloured BMW.
SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
And could you see who was driving it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
No, we couldn't.
All we could see was literallythe car driving in the street
and then the fire would startand then the car would drive
out.
And then we had a couple ofinstances later where the car
would pull up on the side of theroad.
We could see somebody lightingsome sort of material inside the
car.
Like what?
We're not really sure.
It could have been paper oranything that would just ignite
(06:13):
quickly and And then they couldget it out of the car because
obviously they don't want toburn themselves or potentially
set the car on fire.
So we looked at that CCTV,showed them lighting something
inside the car.
They threw it out the window andthen the bush would ignite and
they would drive off straightaway.
SPEAKER_02 (06:25):
So you could see that.
You could see someone in the carlighting something.
You didn't know what he waslighting or she was lighting and
throwing it into the bush andyou see the bush go up in
flames.
What kind of bush area are wetalking about?
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
So this particular one was just bush amongst
residential housing.
Close to houses.
Yeah, literally across.
the road.
Fortunately, the wind was goingthe other way.
But yeah, it was literally acase of the car pulling up on
the bush.
On the side of the road,opposite three or four brand new
houses where people were livingand asleep at night, the bush
would immediately ignite.
(06:57):
Because it's the middle ofsummer, the bush doesn't take
much.
As everyone knows, it's hot anddry in summer here.
And the bush would immediatelycatch fire and then the person
would drive away in the car.
SPEAKER_02 (07:07):
Wow, so those people across the road would have been
really keen to make sure youcaught the person lighting these
fires.
SPEAKER_01 (07:13):
For them, it's almost like a bit of a close
call.
All it takes is the wind to begoing in the opposite direction
and all of a sudden they'reasleep and their houses are
suddenly getting embers hittingtheir house.
Not to
SPEAKER_02 (07:24):
mention all the smoke as well.
I mean, that can affect people'shealth as well, as we know.
SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
Yep.
And then obviously if they'vegot kids and their kids get
frightened and it's somethingthat they always remember.
SPEAKER_02 (07:36):
So you've got this guy or girl lighting something
and throwing it.
You know what car they'redriving.
Can you see the number plate ofthe car?
SPEAKER_01 (07:43):
No.
And that was one of the mostprobably frustrating parts of
the investigation was we couldidentify the car clearly, but
But because people have camerasfacing towards the front of the
house and obviously the streetis running at opposite angles,
at a 90-degree angle, we cannever capture the registration.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Oh, because it's driving past the house.
It's driving past.
So you can see the side of
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
the car.
You can see the side of the car.
SPEAKER_02 (08:02):
Oh, how frustrating.
So how many shots do you have ofthis car driving past that
you...
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
So I think early on we probably had at least half a
dozen images of this particularcar.
It had very distinctive rims onit.
So we knew that we were lookingat a car with very distinctive
rims.
And every single time we justknew straight away we saw the
silver car and we saw thedistinctive rims.
We were becoming so frustratedwith not having any luck that we
(08:28):
started trawling the local CCTVat petrol stations, the 24-hour
ones nearby, hoping that thiscar might have pulled into a
petrol station at in a certaintime frame, hoping we might pick
it up there.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Any luck?
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
But no, we didn't have any luck.
SPEAKER_02 (08:43):
Are you worried that these fires are getting more and
more intense?
Are you worried about what'sgoing to happen next?
SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
Yeah, of course.
At that stage, it was very earlyon in the bushfire season.
I knew that the worst of it was,you know, still to come.
And this person's behaviour wascontinuing.
It wasn't escalating, but it wasconstant.
So what happens next?
We went to a particular fire inthat same area and it had the
typical characteristics of whatwe'd been investigating all
(09:11):
along.
SPEAKER_02 (09:11):
So you thought it was the same
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
person, this person in the car that you...
Yeah, we thought it was the sameperson because the area was the
same, the characteristics of howthe fire had started and the
relationship between the bushand the street.
They're all there.
They're all common traits.
SPEAKER_02 (09:25):
You say characteristics with how this
fire was started.
What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
Certain people will light fires in particular areas.
So for example, if they go intothe bush in the middle of
nowhere, they might walk on aparticular track and light a
fire along a track.
They might light two or threefires along the same track.
Then you might get another firein another bush area a few k's
away and then you'll get anotherfire started by a track.
So generally, we find thatpeople that do a series of fires
(09:52):
will have a common way oflighting fires or a particular
method they like to go about itbecause they feel comfortable
with that and they know that...
And they got away with it.
Yeah, they got away with it.
So if they get away with it,they can repeat that behaviour
and they feel comfortable andthey think that they can
continue that pattern ofbehaviour and not get caught and
(10:14):
be comfortable in the sense thatthey haven't been caught for
one, so they continue thatbehaviour thinking they'll never
get caught.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
And so you get out to this fire thinking, we know
this is probably the sameperson.
What happens?
SPEAKER_01 (10:26):
I sort of thought, I'll have a look at...
The verge in particular, alittle bit more thoroughly this
time because I knew this personwas in a car and I thought
maybe, you know, we might getlucky because they have to wind
down the window or maybe open acard or something to throw
something out the window.
They might have pulled up theremomentarily.
MUSIC So I just happened to bewalking along the verge between
(10:52):
the road and the bush, which isprobably about two or three
metres wide.
And just by chance, I just saw aloose piece of paper lying
there.
I sort of looked at it and went,it's not burnt or anything.
I sort of looked at it a littlebit more and then there was a
bit of rubbish around us.
There always is a lot of thesefires, you know, bits of paper
and maybe some...
(11:12):
bottles or cans or whatever.
So I just looked at this pieceof paper.
I sort of unravelled it.
It was all
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
screwed up?
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
Yeah, it was all screwed up.
And I unravelled it and Irealised, I could see it was a
Bunnings receipt.
SPEAKER_02 (11:23):
A Bunnings receipt?
SPEAKER_01 (11:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:25):
What was on the receipt?
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
I can't recall what it was specifically, what the
transaction was for.
Right.
But I noticed the date and timewas of interest to me because
the date and time was a coupleof hours before the fire.
And I went, oh, that'sinteresting.
So I thought, oh, okay, well.
SPEAKER_02 (11:40):
And it could be nothing, right?
Yeah, that's right.
It could be that someone droppedthat out their window or.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
That's right.
And that's what I was way out ofmind.
I was going, oh, this could benothing.
And I thought, well, we've gotno CCTV in the street.
So this might be something.
It might not be.
But if I grab it and it'snothing, well, then I've lost
nothing.
So I said to my colleague, we'llgrab this and we'll go to
Bunnings.
I remember driving straight tothe particular Bunnings, which
was only 15, five, six, seven,eight Ks away.
(12:06):
And I remember going in there,speaking to the manager and just
saying, look, I've got a receipthere.
Can you guys just bring up thetransaction on your CCTV?
I
SPEAKER_02 (12:14):
assume people are pretty good about that.
Like you walk into a Bunnings,the arson squad, then they're
hardly going to say no, right?
SPEAKER_01 (12:20):
Yeah, no, we never normally had any problems with
the bigger shopping centres andthe bigger retailers.
They know that we're trying todo what we need to do and
they're generally happy to helpus out.
If anything go above, try andhelp us out.
So, yeah, we spoke to themanager and she took us upstairs
into the office and shereprinted out the receipt and
(12:40):
said, is this it?
I said, yeah, this is it.
And she brought up all thescreens for the CCTV.
Because you had a
SPEAKER_02 (12:46):
time to marry it up.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
And I know from experience that the CCTV for
Bunnings is pretty close to thetransaction.
Everything sort of marries up,like their systems for the
register match up to theirsystems on the CCTV.
SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
Oh, so they can say that this transaction matches
that piece of vision.
Yeah.
They've got a system that doesthat.
Oh, that makes life easier
SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
for you.
Yeah.
So anyway, so she brought up allthe CCTV, showed this particular
person walking in, coming intothe store, at the counter.
SPEAKER_02 (13:16):
What did this person look like?
SPEAKER_01 (13:17):
So this person was just a middle-aged male person,
just dressed in a pair of jeansand a tank top, just looked like
a normal average person.
Okay.
And they came in, they were atthe desk and did the transaction
and...
and then left the store.
And do you remember what theybought?
I think it was a refund frommemory.
I don't think it was an actualpurchase.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
I was about to ask how they paid for it because if
they paid for it by credit card,obviously that's great for you.
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
Yeah, no, I think...
I think from memory, it wasactually a refund of an item
rather than an actual purchasebecause I know they went to the
returns counter, not actuallygrabbing a particular item and
going through a checkout like anormal person coming in to buy
something would ordinarily do.
SPEAKER_02 (13:59):
And obviously at this point, this still could
just be a receipt.
This guy's worst crime couldhave been that he threw a
receipt out the window.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:07):
Yeah.
And there are all sorts ofthings that we have to consider
because-
SPEAKER_02 (14:11):
Imagine the arson squad knocking on your door for
littering.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
Well, yeah, that's right.
Or having to explain yourselfwhy your receipt's at a fire
that you've had nothing to dowith.
And we've had to do that in thepast.
But yeah, so obviously we hadthe CCTV inside and I remember
driving into the car park ofthis particular Bunnings and
looking up at the entrance andthere was this massive great
camera out the front right overthe entrance.
And I thought, oh, this is goodbecause if this person has
driven in this particular car,then the camera would have
(14:36):
picked them up.
And I said, to the manager, canyou just, you know, cut to the
big camera out the front?
And we watched this person walkout of the entrance and then
head over to the car park.
And literally as soon as thecamera pointed into the
direction of the car park, Icould see the car straight away.
SPEAKER_02 (14:52):
Bingo,
SPEAKER_01 (14:53):
it's the car that you've been looking for.
It was the car that we werelooking for.
I can remember sort of lookingat my mate almost like we were,
I was with my colleague andjust, you know, like fist
bumping each other going, howgood's this?
SPEAKER_03 (15:05):
Let's go, don't get off! You're
SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
listening to Persons of Interest, the WA Police
podcast.
If you want to be part of theaction, visit
letsjoinforces.wa.gov.au to findout more.
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
You're listening to Persons of Interest and I'm here
with Detective Senior ConstableAdrian Yates from the Arsons
Squad.
SPEAKER_01 (15:36):
We were sort of praying that this person walked
towards this particular car.
And sure enough, they did.
They went straight to thedriver's side, jumped in the car
and drove off.
SPEAKER_02 (15:46):
You can see a number plate at this point.
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
Well, at that particular stage, we couldn't.
So we were actually really happythat we'd found the car and
found the person, but then wewere still a little bit
frustrated that we couldn't getthe registration of the play off
the cars within Bunnings.
SPEAKER_02 (16:02):
But you didn't know who this guy was.
You had vision of him.
You don't have a name, do you?
SPEAKER_01 (16:06):
No, that's right.
So we didn't have a name or weknew it was a person.
They had a particular tattoo onthem.
And fortunately for us, theywere wearing a tank top in the
Bunnings.
So the tattoo
SPEAKER_02 (16:18):
really...
Was
SPEAKER_01 (16:19):
on their shoulder and it was really prominent and
really stood out.
So we thought, oh, well, that'sgood at least.
So this person goes back, getsinto the car, drives out.
And when you're looking at amultitude of cameras from
outside of Bunnings, that wasthe car.
The Bunnings was near some othershops and we then walked around
to some other shops which sortof covered the roads in and out.
(16:40):
Again, like you said, lookingfor a number plate.
No joy again.
We just had a person that had...
driven to a Bunnings, conducteda transaction and left in that
car.
We didn't know whether or notthat was the person that had
been doing the fires.
It was just a matter of, well,we've got someone driving that
car on that particular day, twohours before that fire.
That's enough.
(17:00):
And I use the term, you know, sowhat?
What does that prove for ourcase?
It doesn't prove anything otherthan someone driving that car
two hours before.
We've got a very good intelanalyst in our office and she,
you know, I just said to her,look, this is the car we're
looking at.
Can you, you know, work yourmagic is the phrase I like to
use.
She's brilliant.
So we, you know, we do stufflike...
(17:22):
go through Department ofTransport records.
We have our own databases thatwe use.
We might just do a genericsearch term on silver BMW.
And I've got a couple of guys inmy office who are very good with
cars.
I know the car.
So if I say to them, what yearis that BMW or whatever, they
can go, oh, it's between thisbracket.
So we put all that informationinto our database under search
(17:43):
terms.
She'll do the same for theDepartment of Transport.
We might get a list of, say, 10cars in the greater sort of
southern suburbs region.
So for them, it's almost like aprocess of elimination.
And there was sort of one or twothat really stood out that were
like, okay, these could be one,that could be one of these two.
And then we just drove around tothese particular houses that we
(18:03):
knew these cars were registeredto.
I remember driving past andseeing this car in the driveway.
SPEAKER_02 (18:09):
And you
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
knew it?
I knew straight away that wasthe car we were looking at.
The particular rims on it weredistinctive.
We were confident that's the carthat we'd been looking for the
entire
SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
investigation.
So you've got him, you run inand arrest him?
SPEAKER_01 (18:21):
No, so all we had at that stage was, you know, a car
parked at a house, you know, amale person with a tattoo and
stuff driving that car to theBunnings that day and this car
connected to all these fires.
So then we had to think abouthow we're going to put this
person...
in that car at these fires.
So we have a whole range oftechnology that we can use.
(18:43):
That technology is very good andthat technology will tell us
where that car was at aparticular time and location and
we could use that technology toprove that car's relationship to
the fire at any given time.
What happens next?
Essentially, it's a bit of awaiting game because...
SPEAKER_02 (18:59):
You're waiting for him to light another fire?
SPEAKER_01 (19:01):
Yeah, I know it sounds silly, but that's
essentially what it is.
It's a waiting game because...
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
Well, it sounds dangerous.
You say it sounds silly.
It sounds dangerous because hecould light a fire that could be
very dangerous.
So you're waiting for him to dothat?
SPEAKER_01 (19:12):
It does sound dangerous, but the difficulty
for us is we have to be surethat it's the person that's
lighting these fires because ifwe strike too early or if we try
and make an arrest too early andwe don't have any evidence, then
our case falls apart.
He
SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
walks free anyway,
SPEAKER_01 (19:27):
I suppose.
Yeah, and then essentially thisperson's still in the community
and then the risk to thecommunity is still there.
It's still a risk because thisperson hasn't been dealt with
before the courts.
It's a catch-22 because youneed...
There's a balance betweengetting the evidence you need to
make sure your case is going tobe sound versus the risk of them
potentially lighting a fire,which is a big fire and causes
(19:50):
some damage.
It's a
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
big call to make,
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
isn't it?
Yeah, so we monitor what's goingon very closely.
There was a couple of otherfires that happened that were
just smaller fires by the sideof the road and we're able to
put the car at both of thosefires.
SPEAKER_02 (20:06):
Why wouldn't you just be following this guy so
you could catch him lightingthose fires?
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Yeah.
A lot of people just wouldprobably naturally assume that
we could do that.
But the problem with arsonistsis you can never actually tell
when they're going to go andlight a fire.
We had nothing to say that itwas going to be at four o'clock
on this particular day on aweek-to-week basis because these
people with what they do is sosporadic.
You can't actually predict whatthey're going to do.
(20:31):
And this was no exception.
For us to be able to Monitorthis bloke 24-7 is hugely
resource intensive and it's justnot practical.
But we sort of knew in the backof our minds that the more fires
that continued and the moretimes that car was destroyed, At
those particular fires, thestronger our case was getting.
Late January, there was a firedown in the same area.
(20:52):
But this was a much bigger firecompared to the other ones.
It had happened on lateafternoon, hot, dry day.
The way the fire started wasidentical, but the bush area
that it burnt out was a lotgreater.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
How big?
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
It was quite a few hectares.
SPEAKER_02 (21:07):
Near some houses?
SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
Getting close to some houses, yeah.
We thought at that stage, youknow, it's getting a bit risky.
So we decided that we wouldessentially bring the
investigation to a resolution.
And then we sat off his house ina covert location.
And we really wanted him to be,again, driving the car just to
show the continuity of him usingthe car.
SPEAKER_02 (21:31):
So he leaves his house, you're down the road,
what happens?
SPEAKER_01 (21:34):
Yeah, so he leaves his house, we wait for him to
drive down the road and then weconducted a roadside stop on
him.
You pulled him over?
Yeah, we pulled him over.
We knew he didn't have alicence, so...
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
he doesn't have a driver's
SPEAKER_01 (21:45):
licence?
No, he didn't have a driver'slicence, so...
Does
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
he know that you're the arson squad or does he think
you're, you know,
SPEAKER_01 (21:50):
the traffic cops?
Well, at that stage I'm notactually sure because we were
all kitted up but we had ourarson squad t-shirts on
underneath, spoke to him abouthis licence and then said, We
want to speak to you about aseries of fires.
Placed him under arrest for anumber of fires.
SPEAKER_02 (22:01):
So you got him.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
You didn't
SPEAKER_02 (22:03):
actually catch him in the act, but you think you
had enough at that point becauseit was escalating so much.
SPEAKER_01 (22:08):
At that stage, yeah.
And like we talked aboutearlier, there's always that
risk of if he lit another fire,it was a bigger fire which
potentially caused some damage.
We'd be kicking ourselves goingwe should have done something
earlier or whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (22:21):
So he gets arrested.
Yep.
Does he go to jail?
SPEAKER_01 (22:23):
Yeah, so we arrested him, searched his car.
We didn't find anything in hiscar.
And then we immediately took himback to his house, as I said,
wanted to obviously do aninvestigative search.
SPEAKER_02 (22:33):
Looking for something that he might have lit
the fires with?
SPEAKER_01 (22:35):
Yeah, so, I mean, sometimes they might have phones
or something, which they mighthave their movements recorded on
their phones, depending on wherethey're going.
They might have text messages.
In the past, I've done jobswhere people have been bragging
about fires they've lit.
They've recorded them on theirphones, done video recording of
the fire they've lit.
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
Oh, dumb
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
crims.
So there's all sorts of thingsthat you're sort of thinking in
the back of your mind.
So we go to his house, searchhis house, and then I recall
walking into the room and weopen up one of the drawers.
Which
SPEAKER_02 (23:05):
room?
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
The room that he's staying in, the room that he's
sleeping in.
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
His bedroom?
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
Yeah, his bedroom, yeah.
And open the drawer and there'sa gun there.
SPEAKER_02 (23:14):
A gun?
SPEAKER_01 (23:15):
Yeah, just a sawn-off shotgun just lying in
basically a sock drawer.
I was like, okay, this is a bitserious, so...
Unfortunately, we had himhandcuffed at the time.
There was no real risk to ask.
What was he
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
going to do with the gun?
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
Well, I don't really know.
And when we found out, he didn'treally say too much about it
other than, yeah, what can yousay?
The gun's sitting in yourbedroom drawer.
It had a round in it, so it wasloaded, ready to go.
Wow.
Sawed-off shotgun, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (23:39):
Wow, so now this guy gets arrested obviously for the
fires
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
and for the gun.
Yeah, so obviously there's thegun, so he's looking at a
serious firearms charge.
SPEAKER_02 (23:47):
How old is this guy?
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
He was late 40s.
Wow.
So middle-aged.
I expected
SPEAKER_02 (23:54):
him to be a kid, and I don't know if that's just my
perception.
when we talk about arsonists, Iexpect them to be, when I say
kids, I mean, you know, in theirearly 20s even, you know, late
teens, early 20s.
I don't mean kids.
I'm surprised to hear that he'sa grown-up.
SPEAKER_01 (24:09):
Yeah.
So I found that you can neverreally predict who you're going
to be dealing with in terms ofarson offenders.
SPEAKER_02 (24:19):
They come in all shapes and sizes.
SPEAKER_01 (24:20):
They come from all walks of life.
They all have differentbackgrounds.
They all have differentbackgrounds.
Family backgrounds, upbringings,genders.
SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
Yeah, because I assume they're mostly male as
well.
SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
Yeah, and if you look at the research base, the
research base would tell youthey're predominantly mid to
late 20s, 30s, Caucasian maleperson, loner, doesn't have any
friends or anything like that,unemployed.
That would be your traditionalsort of fallback position.
But now I've found that there'sno real particular thing you
(24:52):
would focus on straight away.
You've got to keep a very openmind and you've got to really
think outside the box a littlebit and not be focused on a
particular personal thing.
SPEAKER_02 (25:02):
Why do they light fires?
SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
It's a million dollar question I get asked all
the time and even by families ofpeople that we deal with and I
can never really explain it in away that people can make sense
of.
SPEAKER_02 (25:15):
Well, why did this guy light the fires?
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
Yeah, so from speaking to him, the best reason
that we could get from him wasthat he had a drug habit and
when his drug habit couldn't bemaintained, he would light fires
as a means to get his kicks orget high when he couldn't access
any drugs.
So it was essentially replacingthe high he would get from the
(25:37):
drugs by lighting a fire andthen seeing the fire brigade
come out and put the fire out.
SPEAKER_02 (25:42):
Because they get their kicks out of that, like
seeing the flames and seeing thefire brigade and knowing that I
started that.
Is that part of it?
SPEAKER_01 (25:48):
Yeah, because I've dealt with volunteer
firefighters in the past thatI've charged for lighting
bushfires.
And one of the reasons that theydo that is because they get that
excitement, that adrenaline rushfrom lighting the fire and then
either watching or beinginvolved in personally the the
emergency response.
This person, obviously, hewasn't a volunteer firefighter
or anything.
He just got his kicks out oflighting the fire and seeing the
(26:10):
fire brigade turn up as areplacement for his drug hire.
SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
Why the arson squad for you?
SPEAKER_01 (26:15):
You just never know what you're going to get when
you come to work every day.
Like, I've got over six years'experience as a specialist arson
investigator.
Every fire that you go to isdifferent.
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
Because you've become a fire expert, haven't
you?
SPEAKER_01 (26:29):
Yeah, so I've done all the training.
I've got all the qualifications.
I had to, you know, do courses.
I've had to do a postgraduatestudy at a university.
SPEAKER_02 (26:38):
To learn how fire burns?
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
Yeah, so there's the learning, because obviously fire
is a sort of a chemical reactionprocess.
How things burn is scientificbased.
So you need to learn a littlebit and understand a little bit
about the science behind it.
So part of the postgraduatecourse that we do is about
learning about fire science andthen applying that to the
(27:00):
situation that you're in andthen coming up with a conclusion
that you can support withevidence to make a determination
on how the fire started.
SPEAKER_02 (27:07):
Well, in this case, thank goodness for that Bunnings
receipt.
SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
Thank you for coming in and thank you for listening.
If you think you can work withthe arson squad, maybe help them
catch a fire lighter, please getin touch with WA Police and see
if they'll have you.
I'm Sandra DiGirolamo.
You've been listening to Personsof Interest.
We are featuring differentstories completely unscripted,
true stories from WA Policeevery week.
(27:33):
You won't hear them talk soopenly anywhere else.
So subscribe if you want to hearthe others thank you so much
goodbye
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
thanks for listening to the wa police podcast you can
keep listening to the action oryou can be part of it visit
let'sjoinforces.wa.gov.au tofind out more
SPEAKER_02 (28:02):
if this content has caused you any distress or if
you need support in relation toabuse or trauma call Lifeline on
13 11 14
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.