April 24, 2024 • 31 mins
Our conversation on Perspectives on Peace Transforming Tomorrow unravels Dr. Rashid Muhammad’s story, revealing how a military career can forge a path to championing interfaith dialogue and peacemaking.
Rashid's deep dive into the narratives of women interfaith leaders during his doctoral research isn't just academic rhetoric; it's a compelling chronicle that breathes life into his work within the local community and beyond.
This episode isn't just a reflection of a personal journey; it's a beacon for collective action and societal transformation. As Rashid illustrates the essential union between organizations like Just Cause and community entities in achieving societal equity, it's clear that the tapestry of hope he weaves is not just his own—it's one we're all part of.
Join us as we explore the potency of nonviolent principles on both intimate and international stages and celebrate the optimism that powers the next generation towards a more peaceful and equitable tomorrow.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Thompson (00:00):
Welcome to Perspectives on Peace
Transforming Tomorrow.
My name is Aaron Thompson.
I am Executive Director here atthe MK Gandhi Institute for
Nonviolence, and I am joinedtoday by my friend and esteemed
colleague, Brother RashidMuhammad.
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (00:18):
Welcome you , brother Er.
It's wonderful to be here withyou, as you said, somebody that
is not only a colleague, butsomebody that's a friend and
somebody I love very much in you.
So thank you for having me.
Erin Thompson (00:31):
It's a pleasure.
Every time that I have theopportunity to sit and chat with
you.
I feel enriched With that said,why don't we start out with
your connection with the GandhiInstitute?
What was your first connectionto the Gandhi Institute and or
to nonviolence?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (00:48):
Well, specifically to the Gandhi
Institute after I had retiredfrom the Air Force and come back
home and the spiritualcommunity that I belonged to,
the greater Rochester Islamiccommunity, and at that time Dr
Muhammad Shafiq of Nazareth,with the Interfaith Institute
there.
He had asked me to go over tothe U of R, university of
(01:12):
Rochester and take some time towork with the Muslim Students
Association over there, whichwas at the time somewhat very
surprising to me because I hadno background in theology or
necessarily advising studentgroups and was working again
coming out of the militarycontext and in my professional
context in an engineering andscience role.
(01:35):
But nonetheless I went overthere and started interacting
with the students and, as goodthings would have it, I ended up
sharing an office with someonenamed Kit Miller, former
director or director emerita ofthe Ghani Institute and the U of
R had.
You know, in the InterfaithChapel I had put you know people
(01:56):
that were not full-time inthese different offices together
and we had kind of a schedulewhere I was there, she wasn't
there, etc.
But nonetheless we were sharingthis office and I would look at
the books and other things shewould have there.
And then we ended up one daymeeting and realizing that you
(02:17):
know how you meet somebody andrealize like, wow, this is a
person I can really reallyrelate to and come to understand
.
Her work in the Gandhi Instituteand also the percepts of
nonviolence, which is somethingvery broadly has been of deep
interest to me and alwayssomething I think I've thought
about a lot in spirit.
(02:38):
So that connection startedthere that evolved to
opportunities to become involvedin the Gallaudet Center visit,
meet people, meet people such asyourself, where this connection
was strengthened in two ways.
One, an opportunity to serve onthe Gallaudet Center's board.
But a very fundamental,life-changing thing was when I
(03:00):
went to do my doctoral work atSt John Fisher and I did my
doctoral field work as a part ofthe overall doctoral components
of the classroom work.
Your cops, making sure you canpass those types of things and
then field work in yourdissertation and doing my field
work with Kit and the GhaniInstitute in terms of
(03:22):
peacemaking, those types ofthings, is a critical part of
that experience and part of mylife.
Erin Thompson (03:27):
So that's how I became involved with the Ghani
Center, appreciate the backstory, and so you mentioned a couple
of things that I'm interested ingoing into a little bit deeper.
So you retired US Air ForceMm-hmm About 20 years.
Yeah, right Right around 22years active duty, all right
around 22 years active duty, allright, and you have played an
(03:47):
important role in interfaithdialogue locally over the years.
Sir, does the chair for theInterfaith Commission locally
hear that?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (04:01):
I've worked , not the Interfaith Commission,
but a group that I've beeninvolved with for a long time is
the Coalition for Jewish andMuslim Understanding, and that
group has been around for acouple of well, even close to, I
guess, 30, 35 years and beinginvolved in those conversations.
One, because I have manyfriends in the Jewish community.
Two, the work that we like toshare and do, not only learning
(04:24):
about ourselves and ourtraditions but going out and
advocating for peace and betterthings in the world together and
then served as a rotating chairwe rotate the chair amongst
that.
So that particular group, yes.
Erin Thompson (04:39):
Okay.
So, speaking of yourdissertation and your doctoral
work, so in 2014, I think, iswhen you published Recognizing
the Voice of the OtherPeacemakers Leadership
Authenticity Narratives fromWomen Interfaith Organizational
Leaders.
So from that paper that youpublished, certain obvious
(05:02):
interests stand out there.
You have a clearly interest inpeace making, in leadership, in
highlighting and recognizingunderappreciated leaders in that
space, particularly women inthis, in this instance.
How have your interestsremained the same or changed
(05:23):
over the years and how has thataffected the work that you've?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (05:27):
done in the community.
Interestingly enough, a lot ofthe aspects in terms of interest
in peacemaking, interfaith,intergroup dialogue and people
that ascribe to leadership cameout of my experiences in the Air
Force.
This may be counterintuitive ormay not seem to be the things
that align, but actually in themilitary I found it to be a very
(05:50):
egalitarian environment and oneof the places if you look
historically in American societythe military has kind of been
on the bow of social change,incorporating different groups
and those types of things, butone a very important thing
coming to have a very detailedand intimate understanding what
the consequences of violence areand seeing what that happens,
(06:14):
you know, not only in the timeswe live in, but historically.
Two, seeing people when theyare given a chance and allowed
to swish based on their owncapabilities and working.
At the time I was in themilitary were the first sets of
women coming out of the AirForce Academy getting in
(06:35):
leadership positions and some ofthe best officers that I worked
for were some of the womenthere.
But as an African-American maleand also as a Muslim in the
United States military, I wouldsee the struggles and some of
the things that I would have toencounter and became very
sensitized to seeing some of thethings that women and my
(06:55):
intersections, or who I am on ajourney, other people are
experiencing the same types ofthings, and seeing the
excellence that they portray inthat context really piqued my
(07:16):
interest.
Another thing, you know, anotherpart of my personality I'd say,
if we go like more on thescience and engineering side, is
if half of humanity is notengaged or is barred in some way
or diminished in any way, whatare we saying as a species and
what are we doing?
So again, some of the scholarsthat I study if I will
(07:38):
synthesize those things ineffect are saying you cannot
just be concerned, let's say, ifyou're an African-American,
with racism.
You can't just be concernedwith misogyny or those.
You have to be concerned withthe range of embracing humanity
and bringing that forward.
And again, maybecounterintuitively, in the
(07:59):
military I made friends withpeople of a very diverse nature.
I made friends with people of avery diverse nature, very
liberal, very conservative,black, white men, women, all
different types of people, andwe became very close.
So that experience actuallyhelped formulate that Subsequent
to retiring from the military,having a deep interest in seeing
(08:20):
how our specific community herein Rochester was kind of an
example of broader things in thecountry of course, but in the
world, systemic and deeplyentrenched problems and seeing
how a lot of those problemsbecome manifest in various types
of violence.
(08:40):
And when I say violence I'm notjust talking about shootings,
robbings, those types of things,but violence in terms of
oppression, violence in terms ofinequities.
I consider those types ofthings to be extreme forms of
violence.
In mission human beings personwho was one of my closest
(09:06):
friends and that I love verydearly and had the privilege to
work with and collaborate andlearn from Merck and others such
as yourself.
I appreciate you saying that.
Erin Thompson (09:12):
What is your experience in getting people to
recognize the need to act oninjustice outside of their
sometimes narrowly focusedinterests or things that are
directly impacting them in veryobvious and tangible ways, in
the way to kind of see theconnections between the ills
that we're contending with at asystemic level?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (09:35):
I've had to , over the years, really reflect
on myself and realizing that Ihave both the privilege and the
inclination to have time tostudy, read, think about things
in a broader, systemic sort ofway.
And being able to do that,sharing that with people in a
(10:01):
way that's not condescending andor confrontational, but
engaging in a conversation,coming to it, realizing like I
may have some things of interestthat I'm thinking about that
I'd like to share with you.
But my primary orientation isI'm here to listen and learn and
hear people's experiences.
(10:21):
You know I'm, thank God, notworried about going home tonight
and if I'm going to have a mealon the table or if the lights
are going to go to all thatprivilege that is there.
So that's a starting point.
But also talking with peopleand sharing and saying we are
all part of this broader whole.
With people and sharing andsaying we are all part of this
(10:42):
broader whole, what King says,we are in a mutual web, you know
, interlaced with each other,and what affects one affects the
whole.
So starting to haveconversations with people to say
, you know, as we are goingthrough our daily struggles,
joys, all those types of thingsof life experience, it is part
of a broader whole, all thosetypes of things of life
(11:02):
experience.
It is part of a broader whole,both in terms of oppression but
also in terms of good types ofthings.
So how do we uplift ourselvesin those good things as a
broader whole of people but alsoaddress the injustices in the
same sort of way?
A manifestation of that may belike we're at a meeting and some
people may be very rightfullyupset with a particular
(11:23):
situation, Right, and that Iwould offer something along the
lines of hey, have we read theNew York State tax code?
Have we read the New York Statepenal code, the Constitution of
the United States and the NewYork State.
And people may look at me andgo, Rashid, what are you talking
about?
Why would you say somethinglike that?
And then I would offer, as weare interacting with this, those
(11:46):
are broad, systemic things thatare framing the situation that
we're in, and not saying abandonour personal or very present
needs, but being able to stepback and saying what are all
these mechanisms that areinforming the society that we
live in?
And can we think about those?
Somebody thought about thoseGroups of people, thought about
(12:08):
those.
They were put in place.
They're not just part of theworld, like trees and lakes,
they're constructed, they're aconstructed paradigm.
So how do we address those andunderstand what impact that has
in our life?
So that's generally what I'mtrying to offer people, both for
them to think about, for myselfto reflect as well.
Erin Thompson (12:29):
Okay, and what's the state of affairs locally in
regard to that effort?
So you work in an interfaithcapacity.
Can we talk a little bit aboutthe work that you do
professionally today?
Sure, absolutely yes, all right, and you are director of
community outreach.
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (12:49):
Director of community partnership at Just
Cause.
At Just.
Erin Thompson (12:53):
Cause.
Okay, Care to say anythingabout what Absolutely Drew you
too?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (12:57):
Well, that, like the meeting with Kit,
starts with an interaction withour executive director, tina
Foster, who, if people have nothad the opportunity to meet and
interact with Tina, I highlyencourage them to do so, and she
can blame me if her phonestarts ringing off the book, but
I'm more than happy to reallyencourage people to interact
(13:20):
with Tina.
An amazing story there thatcould be an entire conversation,
but having an opportunity whereTina and I interacted and she
actually created a space in herorganization for me to do this
type of work.
Just Cause's primary mission isto provide civil legal services
pro bono to people that cannothave access to the resources
(13:44):
otherwise.
But what she is charged me withis going on the community and
working both with legal agencies, community agencies, everything
in the government the policedepartment, the district
attorney, the public defender,defender in order to, as we were
talking about before, look atthat broader whole and bring
(14:04):
those things together.
So the work that I'm doing withJust Cause, my colleagues are,
let's say, more involved in theday-to-day person-by-person
types of things.
My type of work would beengaging, like the Gandhi
Institute, other communityorganizations to say what are we
doing together to address someof these systemic types of
(14:25):
issues and are there types ofthings?
Again, some of this takesforesight and patience, because
some of them may take years togo, but if we don't address
those, we will never moveforward.
So that's what that work is andit fundamentally centers around
is the legal and judicialsystem serving the purpose of
(14:48):
all people in terms of fairnessand equity and access.
So again, there are some peoplewithin those systems that are
very, very committed to makingthat more equitable and more
accessible.
So that's some of the work thatwe are engaging with in that
realm.
I feel very, very privilegedagain and fortunate and, just
(15:10):
like with Kit, an opportunity towork with Tina and our
colleagues there, learn from herand other very, very
experienced and wise people.
Very experienced and wisepeople take that in and then
hopefully share and learn withother people.
Erin Thompson (15:25):
In the same way that I've learned, we can and
hopefully, uh, share some ofthat in a positive way as well
yeah, you position yourself, uh,and present yourself as
continual learner, um, even asyou are a professor in your own
right, and um are are asked todo a lot of speaking on topics
that help to spark criticalthinking among community members
(15:47):
.
That's one thing that Iappreciate about you.
So a lot of your work, you know, focuses on bringing together
different aspects of thecommunity for working toward
common good, of the communityfor working toward common good.
What's the state of affairs inus escaping the silos that we
often describe our communityservice organizations as kind of
(16:09):
operating within?
Are we on a path toward reallyactually enacting, pulling in
the same direction andcomplementing each other?
That's a broad question, butwhere are we relative to how
performed in the past in thatway?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (16:25):
I am very, very excited and feel positively
about that and I think thedifferent aspects of my
personality feel part of it.
The data and empirically drivenpart of my persona would say
wow, we can look at data and seeimprovements and things that
(16:45):
both quantitatively andqualitatively.
So I can give you an example inthe college classroom was
having some of these discussionswith some rather young students
first or second year studentsand remarking upon is is change
happening?
And some of them were morealong the lines of we don't
believe that there's changehappening.
(17:06):
I stopped and asked I said inthis college classroom 30, 40,
50 years ago, would half of theclass be women?
Would you have an AfricanAmerican Muslim professor
standing in front of youteaching this class?
The answer to that wasmostatively no.
And if we extrapolate that tosome of the things that are
(17:27):
happening in the community, thevery fact that we have some of
these players in the same roomand it's substantively engaging
in collaboration, when we lookat different entities of the
judicial system, differentcommunity entities, which have
been, very frankly, you know,there's been a lot of animosity
and for some very, veryturbulent and longly deeply
(17:51):
entrenched problems.
But having those people in theroom, having them engage on
things that we can focus on,shared goals, and not to say
we're going to have a big, broadconversation but what
specifically can we do?
So I feel very, very positivelylike that.
Having grown up here and, ofcourse, having again the
privilege of being the son of ajudge who came through an
(18:13):
experience as African-Americanhimself to really work for
community.
That deeply influenced me.
But going away for 20 plusyears going around the world and
having that experience and thencoming back and seeing our
community with the tremendouschallenges that are here, why I
feel so energized is because Ido see and believe that change
(18:35):
is happening, that positivechange is happening, and being
able to be in those types ofconversations and activities to
move that forward.
That being said, do we havevery, very serious problems?
Yes, we have very deeplyentrenched problems, absolutely,
but if we have, where we areright now, even the ability to
(19:01):
start addressing those in asubstantive way, simeon
Bannister, who I believe you andmany others know very well,
makes a point of let's not onlyI'm paraphrasing Simeon let's
not only look at our challengesand troubles, but let's look at
what's working well and beingsuccessful Correct, go back a
(19:28):
hundred years ago, where thegreat migration was just
starting to take off andAfrican-Americans and other
diverse populations were a verysmall part of Rochester.
Now the plurality in the city ofRochester and the substantive
part of the county of Monroe,the demographics have changed
very, very much.
We've went through a process,but now addressing some of those
deeply entrenched things thathas affected things like
(19:50):
redlining, equities in theschool system and unemployment,
which have a long shadow indoing those types of things.
But the remedy comes in workingcollaboratively, moving forward
.
What is step number one?
Recognizing what the problem isand how long it's been in place
.
(20:10):
If we don't have that, I thinkthat very clear understanding
again that sometimes inconversations people may ask me
why are you necessarily lookingbackwards or trying to take us
to the root cause?
Because if we don't understandthat, then we may be trying to
do things or stuff that may notactually address the situation.
(20:31):
And I firmly believe that oneof the first things to do is to
be able to have truly andsincerely an open heart and mind
to engaging with those who arevery dissimilar.
Engaging with those who arevery dissimilar.
(20:51):
I suppose, aaron, if you and Iwere to stay in a conversation,
which I would love to talk toyou for days.
Actually, we'd have a lot ofshared values in common.
We would have a lot of sharedinterest values, et cetera, and
not only because we're bothAfrican-American men, but as
people just you I as people butthere's people, obviously, that
(21:14):
are very dissimilar.
Going back to that militaryexperience, one of the
interesting things and one ofthe things that stayed with me
is being put in a context wherethere are people that are very
dissimilar to you, but you'refocused on a goal and when you
start working as a team, youstart to actually see the
humanity and the other people.
(21:34):
First off, hey, we're a team,we have a mission to execute, we
need to go do that.
But in being able to do that,you start to say, well, wow,
this person that I'm interactingwith in these very serious,
serious matters, they're a humanbeing and, interestingly enough
again, maybe counter to some ofthe, I would say, commonly held
(21:58):
views many of the people in themilitary if I would say not
most, I don't want to speak foreveryone else because they
understand the consequences ofwar.
They are some of the peoplethat are most opposed to wars
happening.
They are the people that wouldhave to be involved in it.
So, seeing the context and alsothe outcomes of that, there are
(22:21):
actually some very thoughtfulpeople within those spaces and
those types of things, and thathas also spurred a lot of my
thinking about.
What does nonviolence, what roledoes that play in the world?
If we take a historical context,whether it's from a religious
(22:42):
standpoint, if you take Moses,jesus Christ, muhammad or peace
be upon all of them and actuallylook carefully at their example
, it was the peacemakingcapacity and being able to touch
other people's hearts whichmoved them forward, not that
they had a big army or that theycan wield power or had some
formal societal position andthose are just three examples
(23:06):
across a range of philosophies,beliefs, whatever motivates a
person with their internal valuesystems.
I believe when we startinclining to that which makes
peace, that is the moststrongest type of influence the
using of martial means and thosetypes of things.
(23:28):
Again, if people read thehistory and you read generals
and famous people, there is nogood war.
General William TecumsehSherman, you know intimately
involved in civil war, coinedwar as hell and that may seem
just like a, you know, athrowaway statement, but you're
(23:49):
talking about somebody wasimmersed in some of the worst
carnage that humanity has seenand to describe it that way and
see the impacts of that, thereare no good wars.
Erin Thompson (24:02):
Yes, I'm very much appreciating what you're
saying.
That brings me to the questionof nonviolence and its viability
at the largest scale, and sodoes nonviolence scale.
Is nonviolence possible underour current geopolitical
framework that the worldoperates according to, with our
(24:22):
boundaries and countries umprotecting their uh sovereign
interests?
Is there compatibility betweena resolution of difference
through non-violent means andthe, the norms that we currently
have in place, this kind oflack of the opposite of
(24:45):
collectivist sort of way that weoperate?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (24:49):
I again very affirmatively and deeply
hold that belief is yes and thatit's not only apropos or
applicable to, let's say,intimate interactions between
individuals, small groups ofpeople and even, let's say,
communities, but to the broaderworld.
(25:10):
The timeless nature of some ofthe philosophical and religious
constructs that are there are inplace and people ascribe to
those because of the nonviolenceand peacemaking aspect of it.
As you mentioned, geopoliticalconstructs are exactly that.
We, as human beings, we'vecreated those and then we've
(25:31):
created these different types ofthings that may incline to our
nature of gathering and wantingto possess things and viewing
people that are dissimilar thanus, or even more so unfamiliar
to us, as a threat and thosetypes of things.
As to me, we look back athistory, the major movements
(25:51):
toward good is because therewere people that espoused
something in terms of peace.
And if we look at all thedifferent empires whether it's
the British Empire, the OttomanEmpire, et cetera, the Roman
Empire, the Ottoman Empire, etcetera, the Roman Empire All of
those things came and theyreached a nadir, a high point,
but then they went away.
But there's other things thathave been enduring and those
(26:14):
things that endure long-term.
So I do believe it's scalableand I think, unfortunately and
sometimes humanity has to cometo a critical point of,
unfortunately, self-destructionbefore stepping back from that
precipice and realizing, if wecontinue all this, all those
things that people are hoardingor wanting become absolutely
(26:36):
irrelevant.
Yes, they become absolutelyirrelevant, irrelevant.
So seeing on the world stagejust tremendously dark clouds of
violence, division,divisiveness.
(26:59):
But I will go back to a clicheit is darkest before the dawn,
it is darkest before the dawnand a Gandhian principle.
My mind tends to workhemispherically Like wow, we
have to make these big changesand there has to be these big
types of things.
But you know, having thediscussions with Kit and others
and a Gandhian principle startwhere you are, start where you
are.
And I remember having thatconversation, I should say
(27:22):
conversations with Kit.
And then my beloved wife Monicais a quilter.
That is her passion andwatching her go from an idea to
maybe a project sketch out tostarting to make the individual
quilting pieces and unrolling,unfolding over months and
sometimes years to make thiswonderful thing and putting her
(27:44):
love into it.
It is building that quilt rightaround you and working with
those very close to you and ifwe all just can do a little bit
of that, I think that's whatchanges the world and I think,
starting with self, and again,maybe these are.
You know, I'm a slow learner.
It's taken me quite a while toreally absorb these things
(28:06):
becoming like, am I reallyguiding myself in a way that
both imbibes and displays theconcepts that I really, you know
, feel I hold dear?
Right, and that can besomething very, very discreet as
an interaction with a strangerto how you know I think about
things, that type of stuff, butI think that's what makes the
(28:27):
quote.
And when we get outside of thatas human beings, that's where I
think the edges start to fray.
Erin Thompson (28:37):
Rasheed Muhammad, appreciate your words.
You mentioned a little bitearlier about some things that
give you some hope.
Anything else that you wouldmention that brings you joy
these days, that helps you staythe course continue to inspire
me and rejuvenate me.
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (28:52):
And looking at the generations I'm one of
those fossils called a boomerlooking at the generations that
have come after my generationand seeing how people they're
(29:14):
engaging and some of thebarriers and constructs maybe
people of my generation have arenot there and they're more
fluid, more willingness toengage, a more diverse set of
people that they interact with.
So seeing that, that gives me alot of hope.
Also, again, and maybe goingfrom a negative to positive way,
(29:39):
I think we are reaching one ofthose critical points in
humanity where we as a speciesare going to have to make some
decisions, and I hold hope, Ireally do believe that we're
going to turn towards thepositive and move towards a more
equitable and sustainable wayof living.
So that gives me a lot of hope,gives me a lot of cool and a
(30:10):
more community-based sort of way.
If we had gone back 10, 15, 20years here in the Rochester
community, many of the thingsthat we see, whether it be the
Rays Commission, our MAPI, thework that you're doing here at
the Institute, a variety ofdifferent types of things doing
here at the Institute, a varietyof different types of things
all the work that is happeningfrom the Urban League and other
organizations like that.
It is very robust, it's verypresent, it is moving things
(30:35):
forward.
So I see that I see you, I seeDr Chanel Hawkins, I see Dr
Candace Lucas, simeon Bannistera whole array of leaders that
are out there that are justsuperbly intelligent, wonderful
and dedicated people.
And when I engage, you andothers, the positive energy that
(30:57):
comes from that, that's whatgives me hope.
It's not negativity, it's avery positive and confident
energy going, uh, going forward.
So, uh, being a small part ofthat is, uh, does my heart break
it?
Erin Thompson (31:13):
Thank you.
Thank you for your time, thankyou for your, for your thoughts,
thank you for your energy.
Um, I appreciate you.
Uh, dr Rashid, thank you forbeing a part of this podcast,
thank you for having me.
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (31:26):
I greatly appreciate the privilege of
having this and, as someone Ilove very much, I greatly
appreciate being in aconversation with you.
Erin Thompson (31:37):
There it is, folks.
Thank you for listening.
Take good care.
Welcome to Perspectives on Peace
Transforming Tomorrow.
My name is Aaron Thompson.
I am Executive Director here atthe MK Gandhi Institute for
Nonviolence, and I am joinedtoday by my friend and esteemed
colleague, Brother RashidMuhammad.
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (00:18):
Welcome you , brother Er.
It's wonderful to be here withyou, as you said, somebody that
is not only a colleague, butsomebody that's a friend and
somebody I love very much in you.
So thank you for having me.
Erin Thompson (00:31):
It's a pleasure.
Every time that I have theopportunity to sit and chat with
you.
I feel enriched With that said,why don't we start out with
your connection with the GandhiInstitute?
What was your first connectionto the Gandhi Institute and or
to nonviolence?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (00:48):
Well, specifically to the Gandhi
Institute after I had retiredfrom the Air Force and come back
home and the spiritualcommunity that I belonged to,
the greater Rochester Islamiccommunity, and at that time Dr
Muhammad Shafiq of Nazareth,with the Interfaith Institute
there.
He had asked me to go over tothe U of R, university of
(01:12):
Rochester and take some time towork with the Muslim Students
Association over there, whichwas at the time somewhat very
surprising to me because I hadno background in theology or
necessarily advising studentgroups and was working again
coming out of the militarycontext and in my professional
context in an engineering andscience role.
(01:35):
But nonetheless I went overthere and started interacting
with the students and, as goodthings would have it, I ended up
sharing an office with someonenamed Kit Miller, former
director or director emerita ofthe Ghani Institute and the U of
R had.
You know, in the InterfaithChapel I had put you know people
(01:56):
that were not full-time inthese different offices together
and we had kind of a schedulewhere I was there, she wasn't
there, etc.
But nonetheless we were sharingthis office and I would look at
the books and other things shewould have there.
And then we ended up one daymeeting and realizing that you
(02:17):
know how you meet somebody andrealize like, wow, this is a
person I can really reallyrelate to and come to understand
.
Her work in the Gandhi Instituteand also the percepts of
nonviolence, which is somethingvery broadly has been of deep
interest to me and alwayssomething I think I've thought
about a lot in spirit.
(02:38):
So that connection startedthere that evolved to
opportunities to become involvedin the Gallaudet Center visit,
meet people, meet people such asyourself, where this connection
was strengthened in two ways.
One, an opportunity to serve onthe Gallaudet Center's board.
But a very fundamental,life-changing thing was when I
(03:00):
went to do my doctoral work atSt John Fisher and I did my
doctoral field work as a part ofthe overall doctoral components
of the classroom work.
Your cops, making sure you canpass those types of things and
then field work in yourdissertation and doing my field
work with Kit and the GhaniInstitute in terms of
(03:22):
peacemaking, those types ofthings, is a critical part of
that experience and part of mylife.
Erin Thompson (03:27):
So that's how I became involved with the Ghani
Center, appreciate the backstory, and so you mentioned a couple
of things that I'm interested ingoing into a little bit deeper.
So you retired US Air ForceMm-hmm About 20 years.
Yeah, right Right around 22years active duty, all right
around 22 years active duty, allright, and you have played an
(03:47):
important role in interfaithdialogue locally over the years.
Sir, does the chair for theInterfaith Commission locally
hear that?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (04:01):
I've worked , not the Interfaith Commission,
but a group that I've beeninvolved with for a long time is
the Coalition for Jewish andMuslim Understanding, and that
group has been around for acouple of well, even close to, I
guess, 30, 35 years and beinginvolved in those conversations.
One, because I have manyfriends in the Jewish community.
Two, the work that we like toshare and do, not only learning
(04:24):
about ourselves and ourtraditions but going out and
advocating for peace and betterthings in the world together and
then served as a rotating chairwe rotate the chair amongst
that.
So that particular group, yes.
Erin Thompson (04:39):
Okay.
So, speaking of yourdissertation and your doctoral
work, so in 2014, I think, iswhen you published Recognizing
the Voice of the OtherPeacemakers Leadership
Authenticity Narratives fromWomen Interfaith Organizational
Leaders.
So from that paper that youpublished, certain obvious
(05:02):
interests stand out there.
You have a clearly interest inpeace making, in leadership, in
highlighting and recognizingunderappreciated leaders in that
space, particularly women inthis, in this instance.
How have your interestsremained the same or changed
(05:23):
over the years and how has thataffected the work that you've?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (05:27):
done in the community.
Interestingly enough, a lot ofthe aspects in terms of interest
in peacemaking, interfaith,intergroup dialogue and people
that ascribe to leadership cameout of my experiences in the Air
Force.
This may be counterintuitive ormay not seem to be the things
that align, but actually in themilitary I found it to be a very
(05:50):
egalitarian environment and oneof the places if you look
historically in American societythe military has kind of been
on the bow of social change,incorporating different groups
and those types of things, butone a very important thing
coming to have a very detailedand intimate understanding what
the consequences of violence areand seeing what that happens,
(06:14):
you know, not only in the timeswe live in, but historically.
Two, seeing people when theyare given a chance and allowed
to swish based on their owncapabilities and working.
At the time I was in themilitary were the first sets of
women coming out of the AirForce Academy getting in
(06:35):
leadership positions and some ofthe best officers that I worked
for were some of the womenthere.
But as an African-American maleand also as a Muslim in the
United States military, I wouldsee the struggles and some of
the things that I would have toencounter and became very
sensitized to seeing some of thethings that women and my
(06:55):
intersections, or who I am on ajourney, other people are
experiencing the same types ofthings, and seeing the
excellence that they portray inthat context really piqued my
(07:16):
interest.
Another thing, you know, anotherpart of my personality I'd say,
if we go like more on thescience and engineering side, is
if half of humanity is notengaged or is barred in some way
or diminished in any way, whatare we saying as a species and
what are we doing?
So again, some of the scholarsthat I study if I will
(07:38):
synthesize those things ineffect are saying you cannot
just be concerned, let's say, ifyou're an African-American,
with racism.
You can't just be concernedwith misogyny or those.
You have to be concerned withthe range of embracing humanity
and bringing that forward.
And again, maybecounterintuitively, in the
(07:59):
military I made friends withpeople of a very diverse nature.
I made friends with people of avery diverse nature, very
liberal, very conservative,black, white men, women, all
different types of people, andwe became very close.
So that experience actuallyhelped formulate that Subsequent
to retiring from the military,having a deep interest in seeing
(08:20):
how our specific community herein Rochester was kind of an
example of broader things in thecountry of course, but in the
world, systemic and deeplyentrenched problems and seeing
how a lot of those problemsbecome manifest in various types
of violence.
(08:40):
And when I say violence I'm notjust talking about shootings,
robbings, those types of things,but violence in terms of
oppression, violence in terms ofinequities.
I consider those types ofthings to be extreme forms of
violence.
In mission human beings personwho was one of my closest
(09:06):
friends and that I love verydearly and had the privilege to
work with and collaborate andlearn from Merck and others such
as yourself.
I appreciate you saying that.
Erin Thompson (09:12):
What is your experience in getting people to
recognize the need to act oninjustice outside of their
sometimes narrowly focusedinterests or things that are
directly impacting them in veryobvious and tangible ways, in
the way to kind of see theconnections between the ills
that we're contending with at asystemic level?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (09:35):
I've had to , over the years, really reflect
on myself and realizing that Ihave both the privilege and the
inclination to have time tostudy, read, think about things
in a broader, systemic sort ofway.
And being able to do that,sharing that with people in a
(10:01):
way that's not condescending andor confrontational, but
engaging in a conversation,coming to it, realizing like I
may have some things of interestthat I'm thinking about that
I'd like to share with you.
But my primary orientation isI'm here to listen and learn and
hear people's experiences.
(10:21):
You know I'm, thank God, notworried about going home tonight
and if I'm going to have a mealon the table or if the lights
are going to go to all thatprivilege that is there.
So that's a starting point.
But also talking with peopleand sharing and saying we are
all part of this broader whole.
With people and sharing andsaying we are all part of this
(10:42):
broader whole, what King says,we are in a mutual web, you know
, interlaced with each other,and what affects one affects the
whole.
So starting to haveconversations with people to say
, you know, as we are goingthrough our daily struggles,
joys, all those types of thingsof life experience, it is part
of a broader whole, all thosetypes of things of life
(11:02):
experience.
It is part of a broader whole,both in terms of oppression but
also in terms of good types ofthings.
So how do we uplift ourselvesin those good things as a
broader whole of people but alsoaddress the injustices in the
same sort of way?
A manifestation of that may belike we're at a meeting and some
people may be very rightfullyupset with a particular
(11:23):
situation, Right, and that Iwould offer something along the
lines of hey, have we read theNew York State tax code?
Have we read the New York Statepenal code, the Constitution of
the United States and the NewYork State.
And people may look at me andgo, Rashid, what are you talking
about?
Why would you say somethinglike that?
And then I would offer, as weare interacting with this, those
(11:46):
are broad, systemic things thatare framing the situation that
we're in, and not saying abandonour personal or very present
needs, but being able to stepback and saying what are all
these mechanisms that areinforming the society that we
live in?
And can we think about those?
Somebody thought about thoseGroups of people, thought about
(12:08):
those.
They were put in place.
They're not just part of theworld, like trees and lakes,
they're constructed, they're aconstructed paradigm.
So how do we address those andunderstand what impact that has
in our life?
So that's generally what I'mtrying to offer people, both for
them to think about, for myselfto reflect as well.
Erin Thompson (12:29):
Okay, and what's the state of affairs locally in
regard to that effort?
So you work in an interfaithcapacity.
Can we talk a little bit aboutthe work that you do
professionally today?
Sure, absolutely yes, all right, and you are director of
community outreach.
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (12:49):
Director of community partnership at Just
Cause.
At Just.
Erin Thompson (12:53):
Cause.
Okay, Care to say anythingabout what Absolutely Drew you
too?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (12:57):
Well, that, like the meeting with Kit,
starts with an interaction withour executive director, tina
Foster, who, if people have nothad the opportunity to meet and
interact with Tina, I highlyencourage them to do so, and she
can blame me if her phonestarts ringing off the book, but
I'm more than happy to reallyencourage people to interact
(13:20):
with Tina.
An amazing story there thatcould be an entire conversation,
but having an opportunity whereTina and I interacted and she
actually created a space in herorganization for me to do this
type of work.
Just Cause's primary mission isto provide civil legal services
pro bono to people that cannothave access to the resources
(13:44):
otherwise.
But what she is charged me withis going on the community and
working both with legal agencies, community agencies, everything
in the government the policedepartment, the district
attorney, the public defender,defender in order to, as we were
talking about before, look atthat broader whole and bring
(14:04):
those things together.
So the work that I'm doing withJust Cause, my colleagues are,
let's say, more involved in theday-to-day person-by-person
types of things.
My type of work would beengaging, like the Gandhi
Institute, other communityorganizations to say what are we
doing together to address someof these systemic types of
(14:25):
issues and are there types ofthings?
Again, some of this takesforesight and patience, because
some of them may take years togo, but if we don't address
those, we will never moveforward.
So that's what that work is andit fundamentally centers around
is the legal and judicialsystem serving the purpose of
(14:48):
all people in terms of fairnessand equity and access.
So again, there are some peoplewithin those systems that are
very, very committed to makingthat more equitable and more
accessible.
So that's some of the work thatwe are engaging with in that
realm.
I feel very, very privilegedagain and fortunate and, just
(15:10):
like with Kit, an opportunity towork with Tina and our
colleagues there, learn from herand other very, very
experienced and wise people.
Very experienced and wisepeople take that in and then
hopefully share and learn withother people.
Erin Thompson (15:25):
In the same way that I've learned, we can and
hopefully, uh, share some ofthat in a positive way as well
yeah, you position yourself, uh,and present yourself as
continual learner, um, even asyou are a professor in your own
right, and um are are asked todo a lot of speaking on topics
that help to spark criticalthinking among community members
(15:47):
.
That's one thing that Iappreciate about you.
So a lot of your work, you know, focuses on bringing together
different aspects of thecommunity for working toward
common good, of the communityfor working toward common good.
What's the state of affairs inus escaping the silos that we
often describe our communityservice organizations as kind of
(16:09):
operating within?
Are we on a path toward reallyactually enacting, pulling in
the same direction andcomplementing each other?
That's a broad question, butwhere are we relative to how
performed in the past in thatway?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (16:25):
I am very, very excited and feel positively
about that and I think thedifferent aspects of my
personality feel part of it.
The data and empirically drivenpart of my persona would say
wow, we can look at data and seeimprovements and things that
(16:45):
both quantitatively andqualitatively.
So I can give you an example inthe college classroom was
having some of these discussionswith some rather young students
first or second year studentsand remarking upon is is change
happening?
And some of them were morealong the lines of we don't
believe that there's changehappening.
(17:06):
I stopped and asked I said inthis college classroom 30, 40,
50 years ago, would half of theclass be women?
Would you have an AfricanAmerican Muslim professor
standing in front of youteaching this class?
The answer to that wasmostatively no.
And if we extrapolate that tosome of the things that are
(17:27):
happening in the community, thevery fact that we have some of
these players in the same roomand it's substantively engaging
in collaboration, when we lookat different entities of the
judicial system, differentcommunity entities, which have
been, very frankly, you know,there's been a lot of animosity
and for some very, veryturbulent and longly deeply
(17:51):
entrenched problems.
But having those people in theroom, having them engage on
things that we can focus on,shared goals, and not to say
we're going to have a big, broadconversation but what
specifically can we do?
So I feel very, very positivelylike that.
Having grown up here and, ofcourse, having again the
privilege of being the son of ajudge who came through an
(18:13):
experience as African-Americanhimself to really work for
community.
That deeply influenced me.
But going away for 20 plusyears going around the world and
having that experience and thencoming back and seeing our
community with the tremendouschallenges that are here, why I
feel so energized is because Ido see and believe that change
(18:35):
is happening, that positivechange is happening, and being
able to be in those types ofconversations and activities to
move that forward.
That being said, do we havevery, very serious problems?
Yes, we have very deeplyentrenched problems, absolutely,
but if we have, where we areright now, even the ability to
(19:01):
start addressing those in asubstantive way, simeon
Bannister, who I believe you andmany others know very well,
makes a point of let's not onlyI'm paraphrasing Simeon let's
not only look at our challengesand troubles, but let's look at
what's working well and beingsuccessful Correct, go back a
(19:28):
hundred years ago, where thegreat migration was just
starting to take off andAfrican-Americans and other
diverse populations were a verysmall part of Rochester.
Now the plurality in the city ofRochester and the substantive
part of the county of Monroe,the demographics have changed
very, very much.
We've went through a process,but now addressing some of those
deeply entrenched things thathas affected things like
(19:50):
redlining, equities in theschool system and unemployment,
which have a long shadow indoing those types of things.
But the remedy comes in workingcollaboratively, moving forward
.
What is step number one?
Recognizing what the problem isand how long it's been in place
.
(20:10):
If we don't have that, I thinkthat very clear understanding
again that sometimes inconversations people may ask me
why are you necessarily lookingbackwards or trying to take us
to the root cause?
Because if we don't understandthat, then we may be trying to
do things or stuff that may notactually address the situation.
(20:31):
And I firmly believe that oneof the first things to do is to
be able to have truly andsincerely an open heart and mind
to engaging with those who arevery dissimilar.
Engaging with those who arevery dissimilar.
(20:51):
I suppose, aaron, if you and Iwere to stay in a conversation,
which I would love to talk toyou for days.
Actually, we'd have a lot ofshared values in common.
We would have a lot of sharedinterest values, et cetera, and
not only because we're bothAfrican-American men, but as
people just you I as people butthere's people, obviously, that
(21:14):
are very dissimilar.
Going back to that militaryexperience, one of the
interesting things and one ofthe things that stayed with me
is being put in a context wherethere are people that are very
dissimilar to you, but you'refocused on a goal and when you
start working as a team, youstart to actually see the
humanity and the other people.
(21:34):
First off, hey, we're a team,we have a mission to execute, we
need to go do that.
But in being able to do that,you start to say, well, wow,
this person that I'm interactingwith in these very serious,
serious matters, they're a humanbeing and, interestingly enough
again, maybe counter to some ofthe, I would say, commonly held
(21:58):
views many of the people in themilitary if I would say not
most, I don't want to speak foreveryone else because they
understand the consequences ofwar.
They are some of the peoplethat are most opposed to wars
happening.
They are the people that wouldhave to be involved in it.
So, seeing the context and alsothe outcomes of that, there are
(22:21):
actually some very thoughtfulpeople within those spaces and
those types of things, and thathas also spurred a lot of my
thinking about.
What does nonviolence, what roledoes that play in the world?
If we take a historical context,whether it's from a religious
(22:42):
standpoint, if you take Moses,jesus Christ, muhammad or peace
be upon all of them and actuallylook carefully at their example
, it was the peacemakingcapacity and being able to touch
other people's hearts whichmoved them forward, not that
they had a big army or that theycan wield power or had some
formal societal position andthose are just three examples
(23:06):
across a range of philosophies,beliefs, whatever motivates a
person with their internal valuesystems.
I believe when we startinclining to that which makes
peace, that is the moststrongest type of influence the
using of martial means and thosetypes of things.
(23:28):
Again, if people read thehistory and you read generals
and famous people, there is nogood war.
General William TecumsehSherman, you know intimately
involved in civil war, coinedwar as hell and that may seem
just like a, you know, athrowaway statement, but you're
(23:49):
talking about somebody wasimmersed in some of the worst
carnage that humanity has seenand to describe it that way and
see the impacts of that, thereare no good wars.
Erin Thompson (24:02):
Yes, I'm very much appreciating what you're
saying.
That brings me to the questionof nonviolence and its viability
at the largest scale, and sodoes nonviolence scale.
Is nonviolence possible underour current geopolitical
framework that the worldoperates according to, with our
(24:22):
boundaries and countries umprotecting their uh sovereign
interests?
Is there compatibility betweena resolution of difference
through non-violent means andthe, the norms that we currently
have in place, this kind oflack of the opposite of
(24:45):
collectivist sort of way that weoperate?
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (24:49):
I again very affirmatively and deeply
hold that belief is yes and thatit's not only apropos or
applicable to, let's say,intimate interactions between
individuals, small groups ofpeople and even, let's say,
communities, but to the broaderworld.
(25:10):
The timeless nature of some ofthe philosophical and religious
constructs that are there are inplace and people ascribe to
those because of the nonviolenceand peacemaking aspect of it.
As you mentioned, geopoliticalconstructs are exactly that.
We, as human beings, we'vecreated those and then we've
(25:31):
created these different types ofthings that may incline to our
nature of gathering and wantingto possess things and viewing
people that are dissimilar thanus, or even more so unfamiliar
to us, as a threat and thosetypes of things.
As to me, we look back athistory, the major movements
(25:51):
toward good is because therewere people that espoused
something in terms of peace.
And if we look at all thedifferent empires whether it's
the British Empire, the OttomanEmpire, et cetera, the Roman
Empire, the Ottoman Empire, etcetera, the Roman Empire All of
those things came and theyreached a nadir, a high point,
but then they went away.
But there's other things thathave been enduring and those
(26:14):
things that endure long-term.
So I do believe it's scalableand I think, unfortunately and
sometimes humanity has to cometo a critical point of,
unfortunately, self-destructionbefore stepping back from that
precipice and realizing, if wecontinue all this, all those
things that people are hoardingor wanting become absolutely
(26:36):
irrelevant.
Yes, they become absolutelyirrelevant, irrelevant.
So seeing on the world stagejust tremendously dark clouds of
violence, division,divisiveness.
(26:59):
But I will go back to a clicheit is darkest before the dawn,
it is darkest before the dawnand a Gandhian principle.
My mind tends to workhemispherically Like wow, we
have to make these big changesand there has to be these big
types of things.
But you know, having thediscussions with Kit and others
and a Gandhian principle startwhere you are, start where you
are.
And I remember having thatconversation, I should say
(27:22):
conversations with Kit.
And then my beloved wife Monicais a quilter.
That is her passion andwatching her go from an idea to
maybe a project sketch out tostarting to make the individual
quilting pieces and unrolling,unfolding over months and
sometimes years to make thiswonderful thing and putting her
(27:44):
love into it.
It is building that quilt rightaround you and working with
those very close to you and ifwe all just can do a little bit
of that, I think that's whatchanges the world and I think,
starting with self, and again,maybe these are.
You know, I'm a slow learner.
It's taken me quite a while toreally absorb these things
(28:06):
becoming like, am I reallyguiding myself in a way that
both imbibes and displays theconcepts that I really, you know
, feel I hold dear?
Right, and that can besomething very, very discreet as
an interaction with a strangerto how you know I think about
things, that type of stuff, butI think that's what makes the
(28:27):
quote.
And when we get outside of thatas human beings, that's where I
think the edges start to fray.
Erin Thompson (28:37):
Rasheed Muhammad, appreciate your words.
You mentioned a little bitearlier about some things that
give you some hope.
Anything else that you wouldmention that brings you joy
these days, that helps you staythe course continue to inspire
me and rejuvenate me.
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (28:52):
And looking at the generations I'm one of
those fossils called a boomerlooking at the generations that
have come after my generationand seeing how people they're
(29:14):
engaging and some of thebarriers and constructs maybe
people of my generation have arenot there and they're more
fluid, more willingness toengage, a more diverse set of
people that they interact with.
So seeing that, that gives me alot of hope.
Also, again, and maybe goingfrom a negative to positive way,
(29:39):
I think we are reaching one ofthose critical points in
humanity where we as a speciesare going to have to make some
decisions, and I hold hope, Ireally do believe that we're
going to turn towards thepositive and move towards a more
equitable and sustainable wayof living.
So that gives me a lot of hope,gives me a lot of cool and a
(30:10):
more community-based sort of way.
If we had gone back 10, 15, 20years here in the Rochester
community, many of the thingsthat we see, whether it be the
Rays Commission, our MAPI, thework that you're doing here at
the Institute, a variety ofdifferent types of things doing
here at the Institute, a varietyof different types of things
all the work that is happeningfrom the Urban League and other
organizations like that.
It is very robust, it's verypresent, it is moving things
(30:35):
forward.
So I see that I see you, I seeDr Chanel Hawkins, I see Dr
Candace Lucas, simeon Bannistera whole array of leaders that
are out there that are justsuperbly intelligent, wonderful
and dedicated people.
And when I engage, you andothers, the positive energy that
(30:57):
comes from that, that's whatgives me hope.
It's not negativity, it's avery positive and confident
energy going, uh, going forward.
So, uh, being a small part ofthat is, uh, does my heart break
it?
Erin Thompson (31:13):
Thank you.
Thank you for your time, thankyou for your, for your thoughts,
thank you for your energy.
Um, I appreciate you.
Uh, dr Rashid, thank you forbeing a part of this podcast,
thank you for having me.
Dr. Rashid Muhammad (31:26):
I greatly appreciate the privilege of
having this and, as someone Ilove very much, I greatly
appreciate being in aconversation with you.
Erin Thompson (31:37):
There it is, folks.
Thank you for listening.
Take good care.
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