February 14, 2024 • 31 mins
Grief affects every one of us.
But it doesn't need to be isolating, and you don't need to be a professional to give support.
This episode welcomes Bianca Pointner and Matthew Liston from the MK Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence. They join us to shed light on the transformative journey through grief and its intersection with nonviolence.
Since grief can easily lead to depression and isolation, many are surprised by the solace of the collective embrace and strength in the shared vulnerability of a grief circle. As we navigate the complex emotional terrain from gut-wrenching loss to everyday letdowns, we uncover the profound ways in which grief is woven into our very humanity. Together, we reveal the cathartic power of communal healing and how it can forge stronger connections and a deeper understanding of ourselves and others.
Embracing our guests' poignant narratives, this heartfelt exploration ventures into the misconceptions and realities of grief work, highlighting the surprising ways that shared sorrow can create bonds rather than barriers. Our conversation extends into the healing practices of 'grief hygiene' and the pivotal role of grassroots mental health initiatives, offering a refreshing perspective on how communities can come together to support one another without solely relying on professional intervention.
Bianca and Matthew's experiences with grief circles underscore the importance of communal spaces in fostering resilience, offering a beacon of hope for anyone navigating the stormy seas of loss.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Thompson (00:02):
Welcome to Perspectives on Peace
Transforming Tomorrow, thepodcast brought to you by the MK
Gandhi Institute forNonviolence.
In this podcast series, weexplore subjects and themes that
connect to the four pillarsnamed in the Institute's mission
statement, those beingnonviolence, education, racial
justice, restorative practicesand sustainability.
My name's Aaron Thompson andfor this episode I'm joined by
(00:26):
my Institute colleague, katieThomas.
We want to say hello to thepeople.
Katie Thomas (00:31):
Hello everyone.
It's good to be here.
Erin Thompson (00:35):
And the topic is grief.
Our guests today are, in fact,a couple more Institute staffers
, namely Bianca Pointner andMatthew Liston, or Matt as we
call him, who, along with aformer Institute director, kit
Miller, are holding weekly griefcircles, and so our
conversation this week willcenter around grief and those
(00:58):
grief circles that are beingheld here out of the Institute
and, in fact, online.
So, matt, bianca, do you toowant to say anything by way of
intro?
Matthew Liston (01:08):
Thanks for having us here.
I've heard her tell of thesepodcast interviews and it's my
first time being in the samespace while one is happening, so
I'm looking forward to talkingto you.
Indeed.
Bianca Pointner (01:22):
I'm really honored and I think it's really
lovely to be here.
Yeah, I've been also hearingabout the podcast.
I've been listening to yourpodcast, which I really
appreciate, and, yeah, I'm happyto be here and chat with you.
Erin Thompson (01:35):
Fantastic.
What is grief?
Bianca Pointner (01:39):
No big question at all there.
Okay, so for me, grief is justkind of like the experience of,
and a sense of loss, and losscan show up in so many different
shapes and forms, and I thinkthat after chatting with Matt
(01:59):
about today a little bit more, Ithink I realized that grief is
just such a big part and acentral part of being human and
the human fabric.
Yeah, that's how I woulddescribe grief.
Matthew Liston (02:12):
When I think about grief, I think about it as
a longing and a hope for areality that's different from
our current reality.
I mean that could be related tobig things, like I wish my
loved one was still in my lifein their physical form.
Or it could be something assmall, as like I'm grieving that
I slept two hours through myalarm this morning and now feel
(02:35):
sluggish.
Or it could be even somethinglike wow, I'm grieving that fall
went by super quickly and Ididn't get a chance to go
outside and really enjoy thecolors as much as I wanted.
Erin Thompson (02:48):
Okay.
So it sounds like there's quitea spectrum, trans of scale, as
far as how people can experiencegrief.
It can feel big and tied into,like big life changes or
processes, or small and tie inbalance something that's
happened like this morning, forexample.
How does nonviolence connectwith grief?
Matthew Liston (03:08):
I could start us off for this one.
For me, when I think aboutnonviolence, I think about the
use of the term as somethingactive and something that is.
It's not just a passive word orsound, a passive philosophy.
And so thinking aboutnonviolence is the active,
striving towards doing no harm.
So if we think aboutnonviolence is actually working
(03:30):
towards doing no harm, and theway that I think about grief is
that grief it lives within allof us as part of, like Yakuza,
as part of being human, andgrief needs to wait out.
And so if we keep grief insideof us, if we keep it inside of
us without opening a door for itto come out in a productive way
, it's going to find a cracksand it's going to squeeze its
way out, and that often comesout in unproductive ways that
(03:51):
harm us and harm other people.
Bianca Pointner (03:55):
Thanks, matt for that.
My answer to that would be kindof similar.
But also I think that thepractice of nonviolence for me,
and practicing it with you allevery day, isn't in some way
just kind of like the refusal ofcontinuing to buy into or, you
(04:15):
know, feed into whatever causesharm.
And that can show up in smalland big ways too.
And I think one of the ways Imean the big ways we see
everyday, right like everywhereand in small ways I feel like
just the avoidance of the harmwithin ourselves.
So the pain within ourselves isalso causing harm, like
refusing to look at what'spainful.
(04:36):
And I think when you just readout again the pillars of the
Garni Institute on NonviolentViolence and the work we do, I
think each one of them startswith the step of honoring the
pain for the world.
And that's really what it isand I think it's a big first
step in organizing andreimagining the world we want to
live in is to honor what'sreally not working and what's
(04:58):
painful and yeah, like Matt said, even when you have missed out
on witnessing the fall or beingpresent with it, and then what
consequences that has.
It seems so small but it's like, yeah, grieving that oh, I
missed out on something.
And what consequences does thathave?
Like, how does that show up?
It's just like an awareness.
Erin Thompson (05:16):
Thank you, Biafra.
Katie Thomas (05:18):
Yeah, thank you both so much, because hearing
how you frame grief andnonviolence has been, yeah, very
helpful for me, as I'm stillfiguring out really, like what
that huge word means for me.
So that's, yeah, very helpful.
So, to kind of look more at youtwo and your journey into this
work, I'm wondering how did youget into grief work and like
(05:38):
what part of this work reallyresonates with you?
Matthew Liston (05:43):
This morning I was thinking I was remembering
like the first time Iparticipated in a grief circle
at the Gandhi Institute.
And it was kind of funny it wasthe first time I participated in
the grief circle, it was alsothe first time I facilitated a
grief circle and I was alsointerpreting from English to
Spanish and Spanish to Englishfor one of the group members,
and so it was a lot, and it waspart of one of the Gandhi
(06:03):
Institute's nonviolence retreatswhich we had in the spring and
we had partnered with AmeriCorpsin Rochester and so we had, you
know, a handful of AmeriCorpsstaff plus or from AmeriCorps
volunteers plus communitymembers.
And then we had some folks fromVenezuela who were up here and
so I was interpreting for one ofthe Venezuelan staff members
and I kind of volunteered tolead this breakout grief circle,
(06:25):
and without knowing fully whatit was about.
And then there's a lot ofconnection that happened and it
sort of does kind of like likethis great container for people
to build connection in terms ofan experience that's usually
pretty isolating, and so Iappreciated the experience but
didn't make it like a moreirregular practice until
recently, and I think after mybrother died I was really
(06:48):
experiencing just how much thatgrief finds a way out if you
don't open that door, and sodecided to make a more
commitment to myself and to thepeople around me to have more of
a regular practice, and so Ithink in the last year or so has
really been when I've tried,when I've been more intentional
about focusing on grief andfinding productive ways to open
(07:10):
the door for it.
Bianca Pointner (07:13):
Also, katie, you just named it, you're still
kind of figuring it out and Ithink I'm also still figuring it
out.
I just want to name thatbecause I think it also goes to
the term of grief work.
It's like it really doesn'tfeel like or it's something that
I need to be certified in orwhatever you see as a profession
in work, whatever it's likereally a practice and an
(07:36):
exploration still for myself andin community and I think for me
growing up.
I think, yeah, my pain, my wordfelt actually pretty limited
because whenever I showed orexpressed pain, it was met with
discomfort or it was maybeevaluated or judged and it's
(08:01):
like that's just how, like my,the society, the culture around
me and those sort of people whoraised me handled it right.
It was like I'm comfortable insomething to be avoided, very
similar to conflict, even thoughit's such a natural process of
who we are.
And I remember the only spacein which grief was expressed was
really just when someone diedand we went to a funeral and
(08:23):
that's when it was expressed andthen life goes on and it was
like, oh, okay, we grieve, thenight's done and it was not a
continuation of, like, honoringthe pain that stays with us.
And then over time I met andwitnessed people who
unapologetically just say yep,I'm not doing fine, and just
saying that is like yeah.
We say, how are you doing?
(08:44):
And it's like, yeah, fine, justgood, it's going.
But for someone to justunapologetically say, no, I'm
not actually doing good, it'sreally hard right now.
That was like an eye-openingaspect for me, and I've
witnessed people who have gonethrough tremendous loss in their
life but have embodied thishuge spectrum of joy that they
(09:04):
were also capable of expressingbecause they were tapping into
the depths of their grief.
So it felt like wow, what'sthat about?
Like there's some kind of magic, like maybe I can open up the
spectrum of how deeply I canfeel, whatever it is, when I
honor and express myself also inwhat's perceived to be negative
(09:25):
, uncomfortable.
So, yeah, this is how kind oflike over time, I witnessed
grief or like discomfort in that.
And then, yeah, my first griefcircle was also really it was in
Germany 10 years ago and it wasnot a great experience.
I actually didn't like.
It Felt very hierarchical andstrange and performative.
(09:45):
But then, yeah, I came to theInstitute and I was surrounded
by people who have gone throughgrief and named it.
I joined my first grief circleand what was powerful about it
was there was just a witnessingof it, just being present, with
no judgment, evaluation oradvice giving none of that just
being with one another, and thatopened up a way of community
(10:08):
and beloved community.
Really, for me, that was reallypowerful and then, yeah, I just
wanted to keep being in thatspace and practice and learn.
Katie Thomas (10:17):
Thank you, both for speaking to what brought you
to this work.
So you both kind of alluded tothis and speaking about your
journeys to grief work.
But I know a lot of us kind ofcome up with some misconceptions
or we're told stories aboutgrief that may not be the full
story or the right story, and Ithink grief is kind of similar
(10:38):
in a conflict in ways, where itfeels like such a big abstract
word and we all go through itand we're all like, okay, I know
what that is, but what actuallyis it?
What do I do with that?
So my next question is what areany stigmas or misconceptions
around grief or grief work thatyou've encountered in your time
doing this work?
Bianca Pointner (10:59):
So there's a couple, yeah.
So I think again that maybethere's this misconception that
it's something that you need togo through alone, that's not
something that can be shared.
And actually I think there'salso this misconception that
grief is something disconnecting, when what I've at least
experienced it can be a veryconnecting process and practice
(11:21):
you go through.
There's this maybe that's kindof like in relation to how we
hold grief circles, but that itis something where there's like
one facilitator or one personwho holds the space and is
responsible for the space.
But Matt and I just discussedearlier that both him and me
whoever holds the circles alsokid we kind of co-hold them and
(11:43):
we actually actively participatein it as well.
So it's like a very just,non-hierarchical space.
It is a circle, all voices canbe heard.
I think one misconception maybeabout the circles and now I'm
talking actually about themisconceptions of the circles
that we do, but tying back towhat maybe the misconception
about grief circles is is thatyou have to show up and say
(12:06):
something like you can just be awitness and be present.
There's no force, that you haveto express yourself.
And, yeah, we basically holdeach other in it and we don't
give advice or anything.
We just with one another andsee how it lands in us
afterwards.
And maybe one misconception isthat I think there's a fear that
once I'm opening up that partof myself, it goes on and on and
(12:28):
on.
I'm so scared that I can't stopthe grief or I stopped the pain
or stopped the tears.
And I think it's not aboutwallowing in it and, so to speak
in a judgmental language, it'snot about staying in it, but
being with it and then lettingit pass and move through you.
So it's not about just wantingto just be in the grief.
(12:49):
It's pretty magical actually,once you open it up and you
allow it to happen, what it'salmost like, your soul opens up
for other things and otheremotions, and I can't really
describe it.
It's actually a spiritualpractice for me.
Matthew Liston (13:02):
Yeah, while I was listening to Biaqa, it was
reminding me of a chapter inRoske's book Insighting Joy,
which is actually the firstchapter, where he talks about
how joy and sorrow areinextricably linked.
And the joy that we experience,its companion is sorrow, and to
truly know joy, we need to knowsorrow, and by bringing those
(13:23):
two together and having spaceswhere we can share our sorrows
and not necessarily that we'resorrowing over the exact same
thing, but that in common wehave sorrow then we build
solidarity, and when we buildsolidarity, that insights more
joy and more shared sorrow, andso it's a process that feeds
itself.
Another stigma or misconceptionthat comes up for me is that
(13:48):
often, especially if you Googleor look online about resources
for grief or quotes about grief,so many of them are about
losing a loved one or losing apet, and for me that is a part
of grief and it's one slice ofthe pie.
Like Biaqa was saying, there'sso many other things that we can
feel grief over on a regularbasis, and so I think grief
isn't just about losing a lovedone, and it is about many other
(14:12):
parts of our life.
Erin Thompson (14:15):
Thanks, Steve, both for those answers.
So could you kind of bring usinto a typical grief circle, if
you will?
Matthew Liston (14:22):
We have online grief circles that we right now
we offer each Thursday from 12to 1 Eastern time, and then we
also have occasional in-persongrief circles and the online
grief circles.
The way that they kind of arestructured right now is that
folks join at the beginning andthen we have a brief summary of
(14:44):
kind of how the hour will bespent.
We do a check-in round for eachperson to introduce who they
are and share why it's importantfor them to be in the space or
what's bringing them to thespace that day, and then we
often go our own ways for 15 or20 minutes and during that time,
people who are in the griefcircles use that time to connect
(15:07):
with what's heavy on theirheart, to connect with what they
would like other people toshare the load of bearing and
carrying and people do that in avariety of different ways.
Some people draw, some peoplewrite, some people listen to
music, stretch, go for a walk wehad one person composed a song
during that time and then, afterthat individual reflection time
(15:30):
, we come back together.
During that together time, eachperson has the opportunity to
share if they want, and they canshare as much or as little as
they want, and Bianca was sayingearlier, it's totally optional
Choose not to share, and that'stotally fine.
They're still participating inthe co-holding process of the
grief circle During that sharingtime.
(15:52):
There is often a concern inmany spaces where people express
grief and other people are.
They worry about receivingadvice or other people
commenting on what they've justshared.
And so during our grief circleswe really focus on after each
person is shared, take a breathin, let it out and then say I
(16:13):
hear you or thanks for sharing,as a way to recognize what
they've said and also co-holdthe burden that they put out
there.
Then we usually wrap it up withthe quote or another or sharing
something else, anything elseyou would add, bianca.
Bianca Pointner (16:30):
No, they pretty much sums up the online circles
as we have been holding them.
Erin Thompson (16:37):
So were these online circles an adaptation,
then, of the in-person ones.
Bianca Pointner (16:41):
Bianca, can you talk a little bit?
Erin Thompson (16:42):
about how those work.
Bianca Pointner (16:44):
And the adaptation really just happened
at the beginning of the pandemic, when we were basically okay
now we all download Zoom, Iguess, and we're working from
home and figure that reality outand we realized, okay, we are
all going through a massivecollective loss right now and
change, so let's move themonline.
Before then, and now again, wehad in-person circles and they
(17:08):
were structured very similarly,but you have the beauty of being
in person and sharing the spacephysically.
So we would really put anintention on how we set up the
space at the institute.
So we have circles lined uplike chairs lined up in a circle
, we have some candlelight, wehave a centerpiece, which are
(17:29):
usually a couple of candles,flowers.
We kind of set the mood likesurround ourselves by beauty in
a way, aesthetically, have somegood light, and then, yeah, we
do the same thing where we justdo a check-in round to ask what
brings people to the space andlet them introduce themselves.
And then, yeah, we go a separateways to the thing that we do in
the online circles of, like,some creative expressions, some
(17:51):
go for a walk, some journal,some listen to music, and then
we circle back and often incircle processes there's talking
pieces where we go one by one,but I like to just let it kind
of popcorn style.
Whoever feels moved to speakfirst can speak first.
Sometimes there's big pausesbetween each sharing.
You can hear people's deepbreaths in and out.
(18:14):
You know you just take reallytruly present with one another
and whoever wants to shareshares, and yeah, and then we.
Then we wrap it up with, likemad said, a poem or yeah, just
maybe a little meditationpractice, and then we go our
ways and thank each other andyeah, this is how the great
circles usually go in personhere I Appreciate the answer and
(18:35):
you mentioned, bianca, thatit's kind of it is a spiritual
practice for you, so you letlisteners know is there any
religious component into thesegatherings?
Um here the institute, or for meat the.
Institute.
I wouldn't say so.
No, yeah, I want to say more,but let's just know no, it's not
(18:56):
attached to new religiouspractice.
Matthew Liston (18:58):
Yeah, it's open to whoever, whoever wants to
come, and could also be a goodtime to talk about where the
practice has come from and thatwe didn't invent it.
It's informed a lot by the workof Joanna Macy and the work
that reconnects and recentlyalso Francis Weller.
Kit, who's been leading the thegrief circles as well, has been
Participating in some learningwith with Francis Weller and
(19:20):
we've been playing around withincorporating some of the
components that he uses.
Are there any other influencesthat you'd like to mention,
bianca?
Bianca Pointner (19:27):
Yeah, so many processes that we engage in
Basically also really drawn froma lot of indigenous wisdom as
well.
I like just a circle conceptsand the way in a lot of
indigenous communities, grief isbeing Acknowledged and held, so
there's wisdom in that too.
Erin Thompson (19:43):
Then yeah, one, um one additional question for
you also.
You know a Fairly persistent,in my experience observation,
maybe a critique about, aboutmen is kind of the way that we
do or don't engage with ouremotions and especially grief.
(20:04):
What's the typical makeup of abrief circle?
Is it fairly, or can that evenis there a typical makeup of
maybe breakdown, neither interms of Folks that don't finds
men or women in the room, or oror other sorts of like
(20:25):
Compositions that typify a griefcircle?
Bianca Pointner (20:29):
Yeah, I think you already kind of spoke to it.
I identify as a woman.
I'm 34 years old and I usuallyfind myself to be the youngest
in the space, and Usually themajority of people that I've
been in space with were peoplewho identify as women as well.
However, it has slightlychanged over time.
I see some, some changes inthat.
(20:50):
Actually, there's more and moreof a diverse group of people
coming.
But, yeah, there's a wish in methat it would open up to even
more, even across age and raceand gender.
Yeah, how about you man?
How do you perceive it?
I?
Matthew Liston (21:04):
agree that leaning into an Opening,
expressing grief, especiallywith online, with the group
people who'd never may neverhave met before, doesn't really
fit into the mold of thestereotypical male identity, at
least in the in the US, and Ithink that is reflected often in
the grief circles.
They're mostly made up ofpeople who identify as women and
and, like, like I said, it isshifting to and partly, I think,
(21:27):
due to some feedback that wereceive from male identifying
folks who joined a grief circleand and so for.
I mean, up until I startedfacilitating them, it was.
They were all facilitated on.
The online ones werefacilitated by female
identifying folks and so maleyeah, I'll men join in and and
not seen themselves representedin terms of the facilitators and
it's it's intimidating and it'sdiscouraging in a sense, and so
(21:51):
, since I have startedfacilitating, it's interesting
to notice who who joins and whoreturns and, yes, still
predominantly female identifyingwomen and and then it's also,
but there are More and more menwho are joining it.
Bianca Pointner (22:06):
There's also something to be said about
Sending on a flyer that saysgrief circle.
There's something about thattitle that seems to be, you know
, intimidating.
Sometimes we were kind ofsneaky and said Conversations
through tough times that wasdifferent.
Then there was like a differentoutcome.
It's interesting still.
The word Grief, the wordconflict is certain words that
(22:28):
feel scary and intimidating toparticipate in.
Katie Thomas (22:31):
Yeah, Bianca, matt , we.
So I heard you both kind oftalk a little bit about grief as
a Practice, and I'm curiousabout that because, yeah, for me
, when I think about things likegrief or even non-violence, you
know, when I first joined theInstitute it was kind of
interesting and it was hard forme to wrap my head around the
(22:51):
fact that these are things thatare practices.
It's not something that you canjust you know, study and just
choir the skills on how to benonviolent or how to deal with
grief.
So you both kind of mentionedIncorporating grief in your life
as a practice.
So can you both speak to, like,what does that really look like
?
And I know the term that I'veheard around, it is grief
(23:12):
hygiene.
Can you speak a little bit moreabout what grief hygiene is and
what does that look like andhow do you, yeah, practice grief
?
Matthew Liston (23:21):
You want to go back on?
Bianca Pointner (23:22):
Sure, okay, it obviously changes over time.
Certain strategies andpractices I've done two years
ago don't work right now orhaven't worked in a while, and
then it's like a constantcreative process of figuring out
what is meaningful to me.
Also, again, mad, named ChinaMacy, is one of the sources of
(23:43):
inspiration of the work thatreconnects is the work that she
named it as dead, and I thinkthat's really what it is is
finding constant practices thatreconnect me with something
that's really deeply alive in meand that can be joy, that can
be whatever on a spectrum andwith grief looks different ways
Sometimes.
I just take, even justsometimes, five minutes out of
(24:06):
the day to just notice whensadness comes up, to just sit
with it and explore it and askquestions around it.
So I'm curious wheneversomething shows up that it's
uncomfortable, especially, youknow, like being around other
people and being in communityand working in collaborating and
other people sharing, or whenthings come up in relation,
(24:28):
there's always something thatcan maybe be stimulated in me
and I'm just trying to focus.
Okay, so what's actually comingup?
What is my body telling me?
Where does it show up?
Just be curious towards thosenotions and not numbing myself.
And so it's like reallyconstantly trying to practice to
not numb.
That's like really justimportant to me personally, and
sometimes, when I haven't beenin touch with it for a while, I
(24:50):
do things like, yeah, listeningto a song or paint and draw or
seek conversation and sense, youknow, like ask for empathy or
something like that.
It's also interesting.
I've been co-holding these griefcircles for over two years and
then I kind of stepped back fromit for a while now, the last
couple of months, to give abreak.
It's really interesting tonotice what's happening when I'm
(25:10):
not doing them, becausesometimes it was like every week
Thursday at noon I was like,okay, I'm not sure if I need it
right now, like the scheduledthing, but now, not having had
it for months, I'm noticing alot of impact around that.
And so, yeah, just like joiningin on groups and also try not
to do it all in isolation.
I guess, and I think one steptowards that is sometimes to
(25:34):
just normalize naming whenthings are hard, in whatever
context you're in, just to behonest about it yeah, things are
tough right now just likenormalize naming it.
So these are some small thingsthat I think you can do that I
try to do, and I'm also notalways successful in it.
I think grief work is prettyradical in some ways.
Yeah, how about you, matt?
Matthew Liston (25:58):
Yeah, I think for me, the grief hygiene the
way I've been thinking about itrecently it's a hygiene practice
just like other hygienepractices, that I have to take
care of a part of myself.
So I try to exercise and stretcheach week to take care of my
physical health, and I also tryto engage in a few activities
each week to take care of mybody's well-being.
(26:20):
As it relates to grief and it'skind of funny, the image that is
popping into my head right nowis in the movie Elf, when he
chugs this giant two literbottle and then has this huge
belch.
So when I drink soda or bubblywater really fast, my body is
like, okay, we got all this gasand here we need to get it out,
(26:40):
and so sometimes that's a hugebelch and sometimes it's like a
little burp or a series oflittle burps.
Right, and for me, if I'mtaking in all this information
from the world and a lot of it'shard and my body is processing
it then, like we talked aboutearlier, like grief wants to
come out, and so sometimes itmight be a huge belch in terms
of, like you know, a week ofjust being really down all the
(27:02):
time and letting people knowabout it and sometimes it's just
a series of little burps and sofor me, like the grief circles
each week and having thatpractice is like okay, a
reliable spot, opportunity toburp myself so that I can like
let it out and it doesn't justlike build up inside.
Katie Thomas (27:24):
Yeah, I know that that is.
Yeah, that's an amazing analogy.
Thank you both so much forthose answers.
Erin Thompson (27:32):
We want to open up space for any other thoughts
that the two of you haverelating to this topic of grief
circles, grief hygiene.
Matthew Liston (27:44):
Not that there's pressure there, but if there is
anything that hasn't been kindof covered with the questions
that you've been asked that youthink listeners would benefit
from, yeah, one idea and onethought that's been coming up in
discussions about grief circlesand grief hygiene is the idea
of grassroots mental health andhow mental health has been very
(28:06):
much so professionalized andthere are some great benefits of
it being professionalized andthat people receive training on
how to support community memberswith mental health, and they're
more standard, so people aren'tbeing taken advantage of, and a
downside of that is then mentalhealth, access to mental health
services and mental support.
Once again, there's moregatekeeping to it, and so the
(28:27):
way I think of grief circles isthat it is one option.
It's not the only solution, butit's one option for community
members to take care of eachother and support each other in
kind of a grassroots way toaddress mental health issues and
support each other to buildconnection through a feeling and
an experience that is oftenisolated.
Erin Thompson (28:48):
Decentralizing at the end and the hands of the
community.
Anything, you would add, bianca.
Bianca Pointner (28:52):
Yeah, adding to that actually, because maybe
back to what might be somemisconceptions, I'm a big fan of
trying to not professionalizeeverything and meaning
certificates for every littlething to have permission to do
things.
You know, and obviously griefis tender and it's scary and
obviously in circles things cancome up that you haven't you
(29:15):
know, you had no idea, thatsurprises yourself.
Even so, it's important tomaybe then seek help, that is,
yeah, with people, or you know,therapists or whatever that are
skilled in that sense.
But part of me thinks that,yeah, and you know, in the grief
circle, of course, we havelearned that certain parts of
(29:35):
the structure and making it astructure within the ritual is
important and has meaning and isimportant and its existence has
viability.
So I would definitely, wheneverI would hold a circle, keep
certain things in mind for goodreason.
But also, yeah, I love the ideathat everyone can just, you
know, bring people together andusually I would say be on your
(29:56):
heart right now and you just,yeah, I'm with it together.
What's not to like about that?
you know, and what's notmeaningful about that, and I
yeah, I've seen it pop up over,like all over Rochester that
people tend to that as well.
So that's pretty cool and Iwould love to join forces in
that in some ways too.
Yeah, and you know, share whatwe learn in the community and
(30:19):
with so many wisdom, like somuch wisdom within the community
.
Katie Thomas (30:23):
So yeah, and I just want to go ahead and plug
some upcoming opportunities forfolks to get involved in grief
work here at the GandhiInstitute.
So I think Matt mentioned itbefore, but there are weekly
grief circles that we hold whereyou can be with both Matt and
Bianca online on Thursdays atnoon.
Right, until the end of thisyear.
Erin Thompson (30:46):
Well, on behalf of a podcast crew, thanks Matt,
Thanks Bianca.
This has been a real gooddiscussion.
Any last thoughts or words?
Katie Thomas (30:54):
Katie, Just appreciating you both for being
here, thank you.
Matthew Liston (30:59):
Thank you.
Bianca Pointner (30:59):
Thank you, it was so lovely to chat with you
about this.
Erin Thompson (31:05):
Thanks for listening in everyone.
Thank you.
Welcome to Perspectives on Peace
Transforming Tomorrow, thepodcast brought to you by the MK
Gandhi Institute forNonviolence.
In this podcast series, weexplore subjects and themes that
connect to the four pillarsnamed in the Institute's mission
statement, those beingnonviolence, education, racial
justice, restorative practicesand sustainability.
My name's Aaron Thompson andfor this episode I'm joined by
(00:26):
my Institute colleague, katieThomas.
We want to say hello to thepeople.
Katie Thomas (00:31):
Hello everyone.
It's good to be here.
Erin Thompson (00:35):
And the topic is grief.
Our guests today are, in fact,a couple more Institute staffers
, namely Bianca Pointner andMatthew Liston, or Matt as we
call him, who, along with aformer Institute director, kit
Miller, are holding weekly griefcircles, and so our
conversation this week willcenter around grief and those
(00:58):
grief circles that are beingheld here out of the Institute
and, in fact, online.
So, matt, bianca, do you toowant to say anything by way of
intro?
Matthew Liston (01:08):
Thanks for having us here.
I've heard her tell of thesepodcast interviews and it's my
first time being in the samespace while one is happening, so
I'm looking forward to talkingto you.
Indeed.
Bianca Pointner (01:22):
I'm really honored and I think it's really
lovely to be here.
Yeah, I've been also hearingabout the podcast.
I've been listening to yourpodcast, which I really
appreciate, and, yeah, I'm happyto be here and chat with you.
Erin Thompson (01:35):
Fantastic.
What is grief?
Bianca Pointner (01:39):
No big question at all there.
Okay, so for me, grief is justkind of like the experience of,
and a sense of loss, and losscan show up in so many different
shapes and forms, and I thinkthat after chatting with Matt
(01:59):
about today a little bit more, Ithink I realized that grief is
just such a big part and acentral part of being human and
the human fabric.
Yeah, that's how I woulddescribe grief.
Matthew Liston (02:12):
When I think about grief, I think about it as
a longing and a hope for areality that's different from
our current reality.
I mean that could be related tobig things, like I wish my
loved one was still in my lifein their physical form.
Or it could be something assmall, as like I'm grieving that
I slept two hours through myalarm this morning and now feel
(02:35):
sluggish.
Or it could be even somethinglike wow, I'm grieving that fall
went by super quickly and Ididn't get a chance to go
outside and really enjoy thecolors as much as I wanted.
Erin Thompson (02:48):
Okay.
So it sounds like there's quitea spectrum, trans of scale, as
far as how people can experiencegrief.
It can feel big and tied into,like big life changes or
processes, or small and tie inbalance something that's
happened like this morning, forexample.
How does nonviolence connectwith grief?
Matthew Liston (03:08):
I could start us off for this one.
For me, when I think aboutnonviolence, I think about the
use of the term as somethingactive and something that is.
It's not just a passive word orsound, a passive philosophy.
And so thinking aboutnonviolence is the active,
striving towards doing no harm.
So if we think aboutnonviolence is actually working
(03:30):
towards doing no harm, and theway that I think about grief is
that grief it lives within allof us as part of, like Yakuza,
as part of being human, andgrief needs to wait out.
And so if we keep grief insideof us, if we keep it inside of
us without opening a door for itto come out in a productive way
, it's going to find a cracksand it's going to squeeze its
way out, and that often comesout in unproductive ways that
(03:51):
harm us and harm other people.
Bianca Pointner (03:55):
Thanks, matt for that.
My answer to that would be kindof similar.
But also I think that thepractice of nonviolence for me,
and practicing it with you allevery day, isn't in some way
just kind of like the refusal ofcontinuing to buy into or, you
(04:15):
know, feed into whatever causesharm.
And that can show up in smalland big ways too.
And I think one of the ways Imean the big ways we see
everyday, right like everywhereand in small ways I feel like
just the avoidance of the harmwithin ourselves.
So the pain within ourselves isalso causing harm, like
refusing to look at what'spainful.
(04:36):
And I think when you just readout again the pillars of the
Garni Institute on NonviolentViolence and the work we do, I
think each one of them startswith the step of honoring the
pain for the world.
And that's really what it isand I think it's a big first
step in organizing andreimagining the world we want to
live in is to honor what'sreally not working and what's
(04:58):
painful and yeah, like Matt said, even when you have missed out
on witnessing the fall or beingpresent with it, and then what
consequences that has.
It seems so small but it's like, yeah, grieving that oh, I
missed out on something.
And what consequences does thathave?
Like, how does that show up?
It's just like an awareness.
Erin Thompson (05:16):
Thank you, Biafra.
Katie Thomas (05:18):
Yeah, thank you both so much, because hearing
how you frame grief andnonviolence has been, yeah, very
helpful for me, as I'm stillfiguring out really, like what
that huge word means for me.
So that's, yeah, very helpful.
So, to kind of look more at youtwo and your journey into this
work, I'm wondering how did youget into grief work and like
(05:38):
what part of this work reallyresonates with you?
Matthew Liston (05:43):
This morning I was thinking I was remembering
like the first time Iparticipated in a grief circle
at the Gandhi Institute.
And it was kind of funny it wasthe first time I participated in
the grief circle, it was alsothe first time I facilitated a
grief circle and I was alsointerpreting from English to
Spanish and Spanish to Englishfor one of the group members,
and so it was a lot, and it waspart of one of the Gandhi
(06:03):
Institute's nonviolence retreatswhich we had in the spring and
we had partnered with AmeriCorpsin Rochester and so we had, you
know, a handful of AmeriCorpsstaff plus or from AmeriCorps
volunteers plus communitymembers.
And then we had some folks fromVenezuela who were up here and
so I was interpreting for one ofthe Venezuelan staff members
and I kind of volunteered tolead this breakout grief circle,
(06:25):
and without knowing fully whatit was about.
And then there's a lot ofconnection that happened and it
sort of does kind of like likethis great container for people
to build connection in terms ofan experience that's usually
pretty isolating, and so Iappreciated the experience but
didn't make it like a moreirregular practice until
recently, and I think after mybrother died I was really
(06:48):
experiencing just how much thatgrief finds a way out if you
don't open that door, and sodecided to make a more
commitment to myself and to thepeople around me to have more of
a regular practice, and so Ithink in the last year or so has
really been when I've tried,when I've been more intentional
about focusing on grief andfinding productive ways to open
(07:10):
the door for it.
Bianca Pointner (07:13):
Also, katie, you just named it, you're still
kind of figuring it out and Ithink I'm also still figuring it
out.
I just want to name thatbecause I think it also goes to
the term of grief work.
It's like it really doesn'tfeel like or it's something that
I need to be certified in orwhatever you see as a profession
in work, whatever it's likereally a practice and an
(07:36):
exploration still for myself andin community and I think for me
growing up.
I think, yeah, my pain, my wordfelt actually pretty limited
because whenever I showed orexpressed pain, it was met with
discomfort or it was maybeevaluated or judged and it's
(08:01):
like that's just how, like my,the society, the culture around
me and those sort of people whoraised me handled it right.
It was like I'm comfortable insomething to be avoided, very
similar to conflict, even thoughit's such a natural process of
who we are.
And I remember the only spacein which grief was expressed was
really just when someone diedand we went to a funeral and
(08:23):
that's when it was expressed andthen life goes on and it was
like, oh, okay, we grieve, thenight's done and it was not a
continuation of, like, honoringthe pain that stays with us.
And then over time I met andwitnessed people who
unapologetically just say yep,I'm not doing fine, and just
saying that is like yeah.
We say, how are you doing?
(08:44):
And it's like, yeah, fine, justgood, it's going.
But for someone to justunapologetically say, no, I'm
not actually doing good, it'sreally hard right now.
That was like an eye-openingaspect for me, and I've
witnessed people who have gonethrough tremendous loss in their
life but have embodied thishuge spectrum of joy that they
(09:04):
were also capable of expressingbecause they were tapping into
the depths of their grief.
So it felt like wow, what'sthat about?
Like there's some kind of magic, like maybe I can open up the
spectrum of how deeply I canfeel, whatever it is, when I
honor and express myself also inwhat's perceived to be negative
(09:25):
, uncomfortable.
So, yeah, this is how kind oflike over time, I witnessed
grief or like discomfort in that.
And then, yeah, my first griefcircle was also really it was in
Germany 10 years ago and it wasnot a great experience.
I actually didn't like.
It Felt very hierarchical andstrange and performative.
(09:45):
But then, yeah, I came to theInstitute and I was surrounded
by people who have gone throughgrief and named it.
I joined my first grief circleand what was powerful about it
was there was just a witnessingof it, just being present, with
no judgment, evaluation oradvice giving none of that just
being with one another, and thatopened up a way of community
(10:08):
and beloved community.
Really, for me, that was reallypowerful and then, yeah, I just
wanted to keep being in thatspace and practice and learn.
Katie Thomas (10:17):
Thank you, both for speaking to what brought you
to this work.
So you both kind of alluded tothis and speaking about your
journeys to grief work.
But I know a lot of us kind ofcome up with some misconceptions
or we're told stories aboutgrief that may not be the full
story or the right story, and Ithink grief is kind of similar
(10:38):
in a conflict in ways, where itfeels like such a big abstract
word and we all go through itand we're all like, okay, I know
what that is, but what actuallyis it?
What do I do with that?
So my next question is what areany stigmas or misconceptions
around grief or grief work thatyou've encountered in your time
doing this work?
Bianca Pointner (10:59):
So there's a couple, yeah.
So I think again that maybethere's this misconception that
it's something that you need togo through alone, that's not
something that can be shared.
And actually I think there'salso this misconception that
grief is something disconnecting, when what I've at least
experienced it can be a veryconnecting process and practice
(11:21):
you go through.
There's this maybe that's kindof like in relation to how we
hold grief circles, but that itis something where there's like
one facilitator or one personwho holds the space and is
responsible for the space.
But Matt and I just discussedearlier that both him and me
whoever holds the circles alsokid we kind of co-hold them and
(11:43):
we actually actively participatein it as well.
So it's like a very just,non-hierarchical space.
It is a circle, all voices canbe heard.
I think one misconception maybeabout the circles and now I'm
talking actually about themisconceptions of the circles
that we do, but tying back towhat maybe the misconception
about grief circles is is thatyou have to show up and say
(12:06):
something like you can just be awitness and be present.
There's no force, that you haveto express yourself.
And, yeah, we basically holdeach other in it and we don't
give advice or anything.
We just with one another andsee how it lands in us
afterwards.
And maybe one misconception isthat I think there's a fear that
once I'm opening up that partof myself, it goes on and on and
(12:28):
on.
I'm so scared that I can't stopthe grief or I stopped the pain
or stopped the tears.
And I think it's not aboutwallowing in it and, so to speak
in a judgmental language, it'snot about staying in it, but
being with it and then lettingit pass and move through you.
So it's not about just wantingto just be in the grief.
(12:49):
It's pretty magical actually,once you open it up and you
allow it to happen, what it'salmost like, your soul opens up
for other things and otheremotions, and I can't really
describe it.
It's actually a spiritualpractice for me.
Matthew Liston (13:02):
Yeah, while I was listening to Biaqa, it was
reminding me of a chapter inRoske's book Insighting Joy,
which is actually the firstchapter, where he talks about
how joy and sorrow areinextricably linked.
And the joy that we experience,its companion is sorrow, and to
truly know joy, we need to knowsorrow, and by bringing those
(13:23):
two together and having spaceswhere we can share our sorrows
and not necessarily that we'resorrowing over the exact same
thing, but that in common wehave sorrow then we build
solidarity, and when we buildsolidarity, that insights more
joy and more shared sorrow, andso it's a process that feeds
itself.
Another stigma or misconceptionthat comes up for me is that
(13:48):
often, especially if you Googleor look online about resources
for grief or quotes about grief,so many of them are about
losing a loved one or losing apet, and for me that is a part
of grief and it's one slice ofthe pie.
Like Biaqa was saying, there'sso many other things that we can
feel grief over on a regularbasis, and so I think grief
isn't just about losing a lovedone, and it is about many other
(14:12):
parts of our life.
Erin Thompson (14:15):
Thanks, Steve, both for those answers.
So could you kind of bring usinto a typical grief circle, if
you will?
Matthew Liston (14:22):
We have online grief circles that we right now
we offer each Thursday from 12to 1 Eastern time, and then we
also have occasional in-persongrief circles and the online
grief circles.
The way that they kind of arestructured right now is that
folks join at the beginning andthen we have a brief summary of
(14:44):
kind of how the hour will bespent.
We do a check-in round for eachperson to introduce who they
are and share why it's importantfor them to be in the space or
what's bringing them to thespace that day, and then we
often go our own ways for 15 or20 minutes and during that time,
people who are in the griefcircles use that time to connect
(15:07):
with what's heavy on theirheart, to connect with what they
would like other people toshare the load of bearing and
carrying and people do that in avariety of different ways.
Some people draw, some peoplewrite, some people listen to
music, stretch, go for a walk wehad one person composed a song
during that time and then, afterthat individual reflection time
(15:30):
, we come back together.
During that together time, eachperson has the opportunity to
share if they want, and they canshare as much or as little as
they want, and Bianca was sayingearlier, it's totally optional
Choose not to share, and that'stotally fine.
They're still participating inthe co-holding process of the
grief circle During that sharingtime.
(15:52):
There is often a concern inmany spaces where people express
grief and other people are.
They worry about receivingadvice or other people
commenting on what they've justshared.
And so during our grief circleswe really focus on after each
person is shared, take a breathin, let it out and then say I
(16:13):
hear you or thanks for sharing,as a way to recognize what
they've said and also co-holdthe burden that they put out
there.
Then we usually wrap it up withthe quote or another or sharing
something else, anything elseyou would add, bianca.
Bianca Pointner (16:30):
No, they pretty much sums up the online circles
as we have been holding them.
Erin Thompson (16:37):
So were these online circles an adaptation,
then, of the in-person ones.
Bianca Pointner (16:41):
Bianca, can you talk a little bit?
Erin Thompson (16:42):
about how those work.
Bianca Pointner (16:44):
And the adaptation really just happened
at the beginning of the pandemic, when we were basically okay
now we all download Zoom, Iguess, and we're working from
home and figure that reality outand we realized, okay, we are
all going through a massivecollective loss right now and
change, so let's move themonline.
Before then, and now again, wehad in-person circles and they
(17:08):
were structured very similarly,but you have the beauty of being
in person and sharing the spacephysically.
So we would really put anintention on how we set up the
space at the institute.
So we have circles lined uplike chairs lined up in a circle
, we have some candlelight, wehave a centerpiece, which are
(17:29):
usually a couple of candles,flowers.
We kind of set the mood likesurround ourselves by beauty in
a way, aesthetically, have somegood light, and then, yeah, we
do the same thing where we justdo a check-in round to ask what
brings people to the space andlet them introduce themselves.
And then, yeah, we go a separateways to the thing that we do in
the online circles of, like,some creative expressions, some
(17:51):
go for a walk, some journal,some listen to music, and then
we circle back and often incircle processes there's talking
pieces where we go one by one,but I like to just let it kind
of popcorn style.
Whoever feels moved to speakfirst can speak first.
Sometimes there's big pausesbetween each sharing.
You can hear people's deepbreaths in and out.
(18:14):
You know you just take reallytruly present with one another
and whoever wants to shareshares, and yeah, and then we.
Then we wrap it up with, likemad said, a poem or yeah, just
maybe a little meditationpractice, and then we go our
ways and thank each other andyeah, this is how the great
circles usually go in personhere I Appreciate the answer and
(18:35):
you mentioned, bianca, thatit's kind of it is a spiritual
practice for you, so you letlisteners know is there any
religious component into thesegatherings?
Um here the institute, or for meat the.
Institute.
I wouldn't say so.
No, yeah, I want to say more,but let's just know no, it's not
(18:56):
attached to new religiouspractice.
Matthew Liston (18:58):
Yeah, it's open to whoever, whoever wants to
come, and could also be a goodtime to talk about where the
practice has come from and thatwe didn't invent it.
It's informed a lot by the workof Joanna Macy and the work
that reconnects and recentlyalso Francis Weller.
Kit, who's been leading the thegrief circles as well, has been
Participating in some learningwith with Francis Weller and
(19:20):
we've been playing around withincorporating some of the
components that he uses.
Are there any other influencesthat you'd like to mention,
bianca?
Bianca Pointner (19:27):
Yeah, so many processes that we engage in
Basically also really drawn froma lot of indigenous wisdom as
well.
I like just a circle conceptsand the way in a lot of
indigenous communities, grief isbeing Acknowledged and held, so
there's wisdom in that too.
Erin Thompson (19:43):
Then yeah, one, um one additional question for
you also.
You know a Fairly persistent,in my experience observation,
maybe a critique about, aboutmen is kind of the way that we
do or don't engage with ouremotions and especially grief.
(20:04):
What's the typical makeup of abrief circle?
Is it fairly, or can that evenis there a typical makeup of
maybe breakdown, neither interms of Folks that don't finds
men or women in the room, or oror other sorts of like
(20:25):
Compositions that typify a griefcircle?
Bianca Pointner (20:29):
Yeah, I think you already kind of spoke to it.
I identify as a woman.
I'm 34 years old and I usuallyfind myself to be the youngest
in the space, and Usually themajority of people that I've
been in space with were peoplewho identify as women as well.
However, it has slightlychanged over time.
I see some, some changes inthat.
(20:50):
Actually, there's more and moreof a diverse group of people
coming.
But, yeah, there's a wish in methat it would open up to even
more, even across age and raceand gender.
Yeah, how about you man?
How do you perceive it?
I?
Matthew Liston (21:04):
agree that leaning into an Opening,
expressing grief, especiallywith online, with the group
people who'd never may neverhave met before, doesn't really
fit into the mold of thestereotypical male identity, at
least in the in the US, and Ithink that is reflected often in
the grief circles.
They're mostly made up ofpeople who identify as women and
and, like, like I said, it isshifting to and partly, I think,
(21:27):
due to some feedback that wereceive from male identifying
folks who joined a grief circleand and so for.
I mean, up until I startedfacilitating them, it was.
They were all facilitated on.
The online ones werefacilitated by female
identifying folks and so maleyeah, I'll men join in and and
not seen themselves representedin terms of the facilitators and
it's it's intimidating and it'sdiscouraging in a sense, and so
(21:51):
, since I have startedfacilitating, it's interesting
to notice who who joins and whoreturns and, yes, still
predominantly female identifyingwomen and and then it's also,
but there are More and more menwho are joining it.
Bianca Pointner (22:06):
There's also something to be said about
Sending on a flyer that saysgrief circle.
There's something about thattitle that seems to be, you know
, intimidating.
Sometimes we were kind ofsneaky and said Conversations
through tough times that wasdifferent.
Then there was like a differentoutcome.
It's interesting still.
The word Grief, the wordconflict is certain words that
(22:28):
feel scary and intimidating toparticipate in.
Katie Thomas (22:31):
Yeah, Bianca, matt , we.
So I heard you both kind oftalk a little bit about grief as
a Practice, and I'm curiousabout that because, yeah, for me
, when I think about things likegrief or even non-violence, you
know, when I first joined theInstitute it was kind of
interesting and it was hard forme to wrap my head around the
(22:51):
fact that these are things thatare practices.
It's not something that you canjust you know, study and just
choir the skills on how to benonviolent or how to deal with
grief.
So you both kind of mentionedIncorporating grief in your life
as a practice.
So can you both speak to, like,what does that really look like
?
And I know the term that I'veheard around, it is grief
(23:12):
hygiene.
Can you speak a little bit moreabout what grief hygiene is and
what does that look like andhow do you, yeah, practice grief
?
Matthew Liston (23:21):
You want to go back on?
Bianca Pointner (23:22):
Sure, okay, it obviously changes over time.
Certain strategies andpractices I've done two years
ago don't work right now orhaven't worked in a while, and
then it's like a constantcreative process of figuring out
what is meaningful to me.
Also, again, mad, named ChinaMacy, is one of the sources of
(23:43):
inspiration of the work thatreconnects is the work that she
named it as dead, and I thinkthat's really what it is is
finding constant practices thatreconnect me with something
that's really deeply alive in meand that can be joy, that can
be whatever on a spectrum andwith grief looks different ways
Sometimes.
I just take, even justsometimes, five minutes out of
(24:06):
the day to just notice whensadness comes up, to just sit
with it and explore it and askquestions around it.
So I'm curious wheneversomething shows up that it's
uncomfortable, especially, youknow, like being around other
people and being in communityand working in collaborating and
other people sharing, or whenthings come up in relation,
(24:28):
there's always something thatcan maybe be stimulated in me
and I'm just trying to focus.
Okay, so what's actually comingup?
What is my body telling me?
Where does it show up?
Just be curious towards thosenotions and not numbing myself.
And so it's like reallyconstantly trying to practice to
not numb.
That's like really justimportant to me personally, and
sometimes, when I haven't beenin touch with it for a while, I
(24:50):
do things like, yeah, listeningto a song or paint and draw or
seek conversation and sense, youknow, like ask for empathy or
something like that.
It's also interesting.
I've been co-holding these griefcircles for over two years and
then I kind of stepped back fromit for a while now, the last
couple of months, to give abreak.
It's really interesting tonotice what's happening when I'm
(25:10):
not doing them, becausesometimes it was like every week
Thursday at noon I was like,okay, I'm not sure if I need it
right now, like the scheduledthing, but now, not having had
it for months, I'm noticing alot of impact around that.
And so, yeah, just like joiningin on groups and also try not
to do it all in isolation.
I guess, and I think one steptowards that is sometimes to
(25:34):
just normalize naming whenthings are hard, in whatever
context you're in, just to behonest about it yeah, things are
tough right now just likenormalize naming it.
So these are some small thingsthat I think you can do that I
try to do, and I'm also notalways successful in it.
I think grief work is prettyradical in some ways.
Yeah, how about you, matt?
Matthew Liston (25:58):
Yeah, I think for me, the grief hygiene the
way I've been thinking about itrecently it's a hygiene practice
just like other hygienepractices, that I have to take
care of a part of myself.
So I try to exercise and stretcheach week to take care of my
physical health, and I also tryto engage in a few activities
each week to take care of mybody's well-being.
(26:20):
As it relates to grief and it'skind of funny, the image that is
popping into my head right nowis in the movie Elf, when he
chugs this giant two literbottle and then has this huge
belch.
So when I drink soda or bubblywater really fast, my body is
like, okay, we got all this gasand here we need to get it out,
(26:40):
and so sometimes that's a hugebelch and sometimes it's like a
little burp or a series oflittle burps.
Right, and for me, if I'mtaking in all this information
from the world and a lot of it'shard and my body is processing
it then, like we talked aboutearlier, like grief wants to
come out, and so sometimes itmight be a huge belch in terms
of, like you know, a week ofjust being really down all the
(27:02):
time and letting people knowabout it and sometimes it's just
a series of little burps and sofor me, like the grief circles
each week and having thatpractice is like okay, a
reliable spot, opportunity toburp myself so that I can like
let it out and it doesn't justlike build up inside.
Katie Thomas (27:24):
Yeah, I know that that is.
Yeah, that's an amazing analogy.
Thank you both so much forthose answers.
Erin Thompson (27:32):
We want to open up space for any other thoughts
that the two of you haverelating to this topic of grief
circles, grief hygiene.
Matthew Liston (27:44):
Not that there's pressure there, but if there is
anything that hasn't been kindof covered with the questions
that you've been asked that youthink listeners would benefit
from, yeah, one idea and onethought that's been coming up in
discussions about grief circlesand grief hygiene is the idea
of grassroots mental health andhow mental health has been very
(28:06):
much so professionalized andthere are some great benefits of
it being professionalized andthat people receive training on
how to support community memberswith mental health, and they're
more standard, so people aren'tbeing taken advantage of, and a
downside of that is then mentalhealth, access to mental health
services and mental support.
Once again, there's moregatekeeping to it, and so the
(28:27):
way I think of grief circles isthat it is one option.
It's not the only solution, butit's one option for community
members to take care of eachother and support each other in
kind of a grassroots way toaddress mental health issues and
support each other to buildconnection through a feeling and
an experience that is oftenisolated.
Erin Thompson (28:48):
Decentralizing at the end and the hands of the
community.
Anything, you would add, bianca.
Bianca Pointner (28:52):
Yeah, adding to that actually, because maybe
back to what might be somemisconceptions, I'm a big fan of
trying to not professionalizeeverything and meaning
certificates for every littlething to have permission to do
things.
You know, and obviously griefis tender and it's scary and
obviously in circles things cancome up that you haven't you
(29:15):
know, you had no idea, thatsurprises yourself.
Even so, it's important tomaybe then seek help, that is,
yeah, with people, or you know,therapists or whatever that are
skilled in that sense.
But part of me thinks that,yeah, and you know, in the grief
circle, of course, we havelearned that certain parts of
(29:35):
the structure and making it astructure within the ritual is
important and has meaning and isimportant and its existence has
viability.
So I would definitely, wheneverI would hold a circle, keep
certain things in mind for goodreason.
But also, yeah, I love the ideathat everyone can just, you
know, bring people together andusually I would say be on your
(29:56):
heart right now and you just,yeah, I'm with it together.
What's not to like about that?
you know, and what's notmeaningful about that, and I
yeah, I've seen it pop up over,like all over Rochester that
people tend to that as well.
So that's pretty cool and Iwould love to join forces in
that in some ways too.
Yeah, and you know, share whatwe learn in the community and
(30:19):
with so many wisdom, like somuch wisdom within the community
.
Katie Thomas (30:23):
So yeah, and I just want to go ahead and plug
some upcoming opportunities forfolks to get involved in grief
work here at the GandhiInstitute.
So I think Matt mentioned itbefore, but there are weekly
grief circles that we hold whereyou can be with both Matt and
Bianca online on Thursdays atnoon.
Right, until the end of thisyear.
Erin Thompson (30:46):
Well, on behalf of a podcast crew, thanks Matt,
Thanks Bianca.
This has been a real gooddiscussion.
Any last thoughts or words?
Katie Thomas (30:54):
Katie, Just appreciating you both for being
here, thank you.
Matthew Liston (30:59):
Thank you.
Bianca Pointner (30:59):
Thank you, it was so lovely to chat with you
about this.
Erin Thompson (31:05):
Thanks for listening in everyone.
Thank you.
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