November 3, 2023 • 41 mins
Our world steeped in large and small conflicts. And each day we find a way to navigate these conflicts as best as we can. Dominic Barter, our guest for today’s episode, found his purpose in uncovering how we as a community solve conflicts in a way that meets people's basic human needs. Dominic started this in Brazilian shantytowns - transforming conflict and creating meaningful change through the power of restorative circles.
Listen as Dominic passionately shares how basic listening and creativity can be potent tools for transforming conflict. We journey with him through his experiences in the shantytowns, where he witnessed first-hand, the deep impact of systems of oppression and injustice. There, he experimented with the transformative potential of restorative practices, leading to his commitment to replace these oppressive systems with a more just, equitable approach.
As we delve deeper, Dominic shares the incredible power of restorative practices not just in reducing traumatic stress but also in fostering healing, community safety, and stronger relationships. We unpack the intricate interplay of creativity, dialogue and wisdom in understanding conflict and bringing about positive change. Dominic leaves us with an open invitation for further discussions and a challenge to actively involve ourselves in effecting change through these practices. Embrace this journey with us and let's together explore the transformative potential of restorative justice in our communities.
Learn more about Dominic's work: https://www.restorativecircles.org/
Contact Dominic: contatodominic@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin Thompson (00:00):
Welcome to Perspectives on Peace
Transforming Tomorrow thepodcast of the MK Gandhi
Institute for Nonviolence.
My name is Aaron Thompson.
I'm joined with my podcastcolleagues Michael Jones.
Katie Thomas (00:12):
And Katie Thomas.
Erin Thompson (00:14):
And in this podcast we discuss the four
pillars, if you will, where theInstitute focuses its activities
, those being nonviolence,education, anti-racism, work of
practices and sustainability.
And so we have as our guestDominic Barter, who is engaged
(00:35):
in sort of work, especially inspecifically restorative circles
, which is a theft in practicethat we'll be exploring along
with his led him into this workand its applications and its
prospects world today.
Happy to have you here, Dominic, welcome.
Thanks so much.
(00:55):
Tell us what restorativecircles are or what are
practices.
These are new terms to ourlisteners.
Dominic Barter (01:04):
Sure, basically, when we have meaningful
relationships with other people,at some point we're going to
have conflict, and I think thathappens because the important
subjects come up with theimportant people, and so every
relationship, every group ofpeople who hang out together,
eventually will have some way ofresponding to conflict, making
(01:26):
sure that we can learn from it,that it can strengthen our
connections, that it can bringnew ideas and new possibilities.
So it's not a negative thing,but I think we've become
accustomed to seeing itnegatively, because the ways
that have been imposed on us torespond to conflict like
deciding who's right and who'swrong, punishing people, trying
(01:48):
to educate them through violencebasically exclusion, separation
of people, lack ofunderstanding between them the
ways that have been imposed onus have created such tension
that often, rather thancontribute to strengthening our
relationships, conflict turnsinto violence and then it turns
into really horrific memories,fear, that sense of danger.
(02:13):
Anytime there's a disagreement,people tense up, and so
restorative practices are simplya recognition that can
rediscover the ways in whichpeople, relationships, emerge
through a missing conflict, andwe can recognize that conflict
is actually more likely when you.
Violence is more likely whenyou fear conflict than it is
(02:34):
when you understand it and moveinto it and listen to each other
deeply and find out what'swrong and make the changes.
Erin Thompson (02:42):
Give us an idea about how you actually got into
work?
Dominic Barter (02:46):
I moved to Rio in Brazil in 1992.
And Rio is a that's where I'velived ever since.
And Rio is this beautiful citythat you see images of online
beaches and forest, amazingculture and people but it's also
a really troubled city wherethere's incredible disparities
(03:07):
of wealth, people in shantytowns living in really desperate
situations, and then you getpeople living like rich people
in the US and everyone rightnext to each other.
So naturally there's a lot ofpain.
That that generates a lot offear and a lot of division, and
so conflict emerges, like justlike it does anywhere.
(03:28):
But because there's thismechanism saying we've got to
keep this difference, we've gotto keep the poor poor and we've
got to keep the rich rich, youget a lot of violence as well.
So for me, it was reallyshocking to want to live in this
beautiful place and, the sametime, to be subject to this,
basically like a civil war.
So I wanted to start doingthings and people told me well,
(03:49):
that's nice, but like it'sreally dangerous.
You can't do anything.
And who are you?
You didn't grow up here andlike where's your organization,
where are the skills you know,where's your money and where's
the team?
It was true, I didn't have anyof that, I started thinking
about what I might be able to dothat wasn't as dangerous as
people said it was, but wasstill effective, and it seemed
(04:11):
to me the only way I was goingto begin to be able to begin was
by listening to people to findout what was going on, and even
that they said you can't do andyou can't listen to those folks
though and it's the drug gangs,they're the terrorists, they're
whatever and it seemed thatnothing was ever going to happen
unless there was that basiclistening.
So I just started listening tokids on street corners.
(04:31):
That was it, like.
The first group was like eight,nine years old.
They were just sitting on thecoyote doing nothing, and
they're always curious like youknow, who's the guy with the
funny accent, where are you from?
And we started chatting, and itwas through that conversation
that just started hanging outwith them, and sometimes we kick
a ball around or that, and, youknow, maybe someone trips
(04:52):
someone else up because they getyou know like really into the
game and there's that moment oftension as a standoff Anything
what's going to happen and Irealized that, okay, so hanging
out is good, that strengthensthe connection with people and
when there's a strength andconnection, there's a better
relationship.
And then you're one thing youcan see, if not the actual
healing you can, but you canjust see the people, people
together, more trust, ownership.
(05:14):
But how do you do that whenthere's conflict?
So that was what I was reallycurious about.
So we just started improvising.
Katie Thomas (05:21):
So one person said yeah, you tripped me over.
You've done that before.
Dominic Barter (05:25):
You know.
And then there's that returnLike immediately the other guy's
defending himself and they gohold on, I don't know if you
heard each other first.
So it's like super basic, justchecking Message sent, is
message received or not, becauseoften it gets lost, it gets
confused and we found just byimprovising like this, just by
playing, really, that often wedidn't understand each other.
(05:47):
And then I would go homethinking, wow, that's just like
me at home, that's just like me,my sister, when I was their age
, just the same.
You know, my mom was tired andoverworked, my dad wasn't there,
and so my mom would shout, ormy mom would just close the door
and say I can't handle it, yousort it out, or whatever.
I got interested in how we dothat.
How do we do the sorting out?
Because I never talk about that.
(06:07):
We always talk about whenthere's trouble.
No one comes up to me in schooland says so you were having an
argument yesterday with a friendand then you sort it out.
Good job, get why they don't dothat.
But at the same time didnothing happen, because when I
didn't sort it out, I'm going topunch someone or whatever.
They paid attention, then wegot loads of attention.
Then they were super interestedin us.
(06:28):
So I got really interested inhow are people sorting out most
of their conflict most of thetime, and it seemed the same
even in conditions almost likewar in Rio.
And so, working with these kids, we basically developed in our
core restorative circles.
We developed a way sit down, acommunity agreement that when
conflict gets painful we sitdown and we dialogue.
(06:50):
We worked out what does thatmean for us?
What does dialogue mean for us?
What does it look likehappening?
How do we know we got there?
What does it mean to make anagreement?
How can you check that theagreement has actually happened?
How can you check if it waseffective or not?
So all that stuff came out ofhanging out with the kids in the
favela, in the shanty.
Erin Thompson (07:09):
And I introduced you as a person who is deeply
rooted in this work.
You're really the force behindrestorative circles, terro
restorative circles andbrainwork that is employed
places around the world now,especially Brazil in particular,
where you began your work, butit's international at this point
(07:31):
.
Dominic Barter (07:32):
Yeah, I think it's those kids who are the
driving force behind it, likeI'm the spokesman, that's really
like I'm here because I speakEnglish and because I get to
travel.
I think it's that communitywisdom that actually makes
happen everywhere you go.
And we found that basically thesame thing that those kids and
their older brothers and sisterscame up with in the shanty town
(07:53):
, even while they were workingfor the gangs, while, you know,
some of them would walk aroundarmed.
Now I'm thinking of one of themin particular who I spoke to
right at the very beginning, andhe was actually on patrol at
the time.
He was what called a falcon,which is someone who is pork.
So there is, these people aregutted for that, so they watch
(08:14):
to see if the police areinvading or if a rival gang is
invading.
So he had to be armed while wewere chatting and he said no,
I've known this stuff for ages.
It's like a dream asleep in myheart, and talking to you about
it wakes it up.
But I really liked that image.
It's not a new idea.
He wasn't inventing it, nor washe learning it from me or
anyone else.
(08:34):
It was already there.
It's just it was asleep,because where is the possibility
of this?
You know, we look around and wego well, that's a beautiful idea
, but that's not realistic.
That's not what my life is like.
So, creating, like waking thatdream up and then working out
the logistics, you know, how doyou actually make that a real
thing and the art of it?
And what I do is I go aroundand I tell stories when I travel
(08:58):
.
You know, when I'm back thereI'm doing the work.
When I travel, I'm telling thatstory, really just to say, you
know, maybe without evennoticing it, you started to
believe that this isn't possible.
Like peace is this beautifulidea but it's not practical,
it's not real world, and it'sjust to say, well, yes, yeah,
thank you so much for talking.
Katie Thomas (09:19):
Yeah, but what brought you to restorative this
is, and really what there are inessence and I kind of have a
question about aren't, and whatsome of them mischievs and
perceptions of restorativecircles are.
What have you heard?
You kind of pushed back already.
Yeah, just wrong thoughts aboutlike what kind of practices are
(09:39):
really?
Dominic Barter (09:40):
Yeah, well, I think the first thing is that
most adults that I meet a friendof conflict.
So the first thing that theythink that this is gonna be is a
way to make conflict go away.
And that's pretty worrying tome because when we're facing so
much injustice, making conflictgo away sounds like just making
(10:00):
everybody more passive.
So I imagine you get that allthe time in relation to the word
nonviolence.
Like people are constantlythinking oh, the word
nonviolence means that you know,everyone calms down and goes
home and lives life as ifnothing is happening.
So it's kind of interesting andwhere you were reading out like
these four things that theGandhi Institute, that the
Gandhi Institute does, like forsome people they'll be going
(10:23):
hold on nonviolence educationand anti-racist work in their
heads.
Maybe they won't even think it,but practically it's like a
contradiction because they thinkthat anti-racist work is likely
to create more conflict, but inthe healthiest sense, because
yeah, we're supporting people tosay, no, you don't actually
(10:44):
have to take that stuff andthere's something that you can
do to overthrow and to transformthose dynamics of oppression
and that daily life in a systemof oppression.
That's not peace.
So a lot of the samemisunderstandings.
People are like, oh great, soyou're gonna make the
disagreements go away.
And really the answer to thatis well, it depends.
(11:04):
Do you wanna live in ademocracy?
Because if you wanna livedemocratically, you're gonna
have more conflict, not less Inthe best sense.
You're gonna have people saying, well, I think the best
solution to this issue over hereis like that, and someone else
says, really, cause, I gotanother idea.
That's democracy.
It's like you know, we talk itout till we find the best idea
and then we test it and we seewhat works.
(11:26):
We keep what works and we chuckwhat doesn't work.
So I think of non-violence andrestorative and democracy as all
being really, reallyinterconnected to each other.
And really the weakness in ourcurrent democracy the reason
people are getting fed up withdemocracy and impatient with it
and starting to dream of bigleaders who just make decisions
on their own is because thedialogue is getting lost.
(11:49):
So non-violence and restorativeare amazing places where you
can say, okay, we're gonna bringthe dialogue back in this
specific area.
So that's a misunderstandingthat it's interesting to look at
.
And the other one is thatpeople still think that all
right, so there's gonna besomeone in the circle who's
gonna tell me who's right andwho's wrong and tell us what to
(12:10):
do, and that's a kind oflaziness that we've got into.
We're just like, we're not usedto it.
But young people are.
I don't see young people.
They know how to sort out theirissues.
So a lot of restorative justicework comes from the young and I
don't think it's surprising.
Erin Thompson (12:27):
And restorative expressly, and I'm wondering if
then just for a moment aboutlike, what circle looks like and
what it's in is.
Dominic Barter (12:36):
Right.
So the first thing is it lookslike what we decide.
It looks like so when a groupof people get together and they
say, okay, so we care about eachother, so we're doing something
important.
So therefore, we know conflictis gonna happen at some point.
That's natural, that's healthy,even that's how we get to the
best solutions.
Sometimes we have to argue itout, sometimes those arguments
(12:59):
get personal, and then we runthe risk of getting lost and
forgetting the connectionbetween us.
We'll then decide how theywanna respond in those moments.
What does dialogue look like toyou?
Like a brother and sister athome, or with your group of
friends or your classmates orwhatever it is, whatever group
you're in.
So there isn't a pattern.
(13:19):
There isn't like a manual thatyou can download that tells you
what to do in a way that, in ourexperience, is sustainable.
You can do that.
There are manuals, you candownload them.
They can be useful, they canget you started, but if you're
just copying other people'sideas, probably not gonna work
as you want them to for you.
So the first thing is torecognize it looks like you.
(13:41):
And the second thing is that itprobably needs to include
certain ingredients, like innerdisagreement in a fight,
misunderstanding between people,there's usually on more people
who have one position the peopleare concerned about.
So you have kind of initiallyhave those two groups.
You probably have a third group.
You probably have the peoplewho care about everyone involved
(14:03):
, the people who are indirectlyaffected by what's going on.
So like if I, if we all worktogether and two of you start
having an argument, then rest ofus are, we're still impacted,
but we're not directly havingthe argument.
So there's something abouthaving that third group there
which is really important,because they have Wisdom that
(14:24):
maybe the two of you don't havebecause you're in the middle of
the heat at the moment.
So most of these practices,most of these circles, will have
some Representative of thesethree groups there.
And then the question is okay,so how do we talk?
Well, we know how to expressourselves, but often we don't
know how to listen.
So you see a lot of that in themoment with social media,
because social media is alwayssaying what do you think, what's
(14:47):
important to you, what do youfeel?
You know, express yourself.
And that's like amazing andpeople are, voices are coming
out that haven't come out forlike hundreds of years.
It's incredible.
So, like in Brazil, we have,like you know, young indigenous
leaders who never had a voiceand now they have millions of
followers.
So we have extraordinarytransformation happening in that
(15:07):
sense, but it's a lot of talkand it's not so much listening.
There's a lot of expression onit and the understanding, yeah,
it's kind of it's not so clear.
So one of the main things thatyou're probably gonna want to
look at is how do we make surethat someone is hearing Not just
the words but the meaning thatthe other person is wanting to
get across?
So we have to work out somesolution for checking the person
(15:32):
is hearing.
The speaker is saying, and thenthe question is okay, the needs
that are in the meeting, inthis situation, and if someone
has done something painful, whatare the good reasons why people
have done the bad things?
Like, what is it that someonewas trying to take care of when
they acted in the way that theydid, when they use those words,
when they did that thing?
Because, if we can get back theoriginal intention and get
(15:56):
beyond the idea that theintention was to hurt, the
intention was to dominate, theintention was to Was to insult
me, and I've got to defend mydignity and we can get out of
that cycle.
It doesn't ask people to givetheir dignity up, like make
peace when it's not really trueinside and like pretend the
fight is over when it isn'treally.
If we can, if we can work outwhat that original need was,
(16:20):
then we can start planning.
Okay, so now we know what's onthe table, what we're dealing
with.
Now we can make a plan to workit out.
And people's creativity is justincredible.
In a moment like that, youdon't need anyone to tell you
what to do.
You know each other better thananyone.
You know the situation, youknow what's at stake.
The people come up with suchcreative solutions.
So probably those three piecesare gonna be that those three
(16:42):
groups of people, like theperson who did the act, or the
people, people who received theimpact of it, and then the
community, and then probablythose three phases like learning
how to hear each other, findingout what it is that we need and
then making a doable plan.
Most circles will probably looklike that.
Michael Jones (17:03):
I don't know you're being understood.
Dominic Barter (17:07):
You know, I think a good question.
Yeah, we can see it in theshift in and other people Saying
something that you're defendingyourself against and you're not
really taking on board.
It's not really.
I mean.
We say it like what I want isunderstanding, I want you to
understand me, but we're nottalking about English.
Like you understood the words Iused.
(17:28):
That's not what we mean.
We mean somehow I know that youfeel what I'm saying and then I
want to know that there's ashift in your attitude because
of that.
So we say that right, do youfeel me?
Yeah that's sometimes don'tthink about what we're saying
when we say those things.
That's a really wise phrase.
The person who says that knowsperfectly well.
(17:49):
It's not about the words, it'sabout something else.
It's about what I call themeaning, like when I know that
you get me see it in your face,I can see it in your eyes.
Something shift so often inpainful conflict that has got
lost.
It's like a phone without asignal.
A Phone without signal is kindof useless.
(18:11):
There's not much you can dowith it.
Take a photograph, that's itreally.
So.
Either signal in order for themessage to get across and I
think there's signals betweenhumans as well and sometimes
that signal is strong andsometimes it gets weak and
sometimes it drops all together.
When it drops all together,we're in danger, because that's
when people start creating thesekind of monster images of each
(18:33):
other, these scary ideas in theheads.
They dehumanize each other.
They don't see the other personas being Part of the community,
having a legitimate voice,having a legitimate place,
whatever group you're part of,when it gets dangerous.
So every time there's violence,every time there's painful
conflict, I'm looking for thesignal.
How's the connection going?
(18:53):
Is the connection strong?
Because the connection isn'tstrong, it doesn't matter what
brilliant things we're saying toeach other, my words aren't
going to reach you right now.
Without the internet, no one'shearing what we're saying.
So what we're saying is notinternet, internet, internet.
But without it, no one's.
No one's able to hear us.
We're just talking on our ownin a room.
(19:14):
So I'm always looking for thesignal, for the connection.
When the connection is strong,then we're looking for the
action which transforms.
Whatever dynamic is painful,because that's what conflict
wants.
Conflict wants change.
Conflict isn't a bad thing, it'sa good thing.
It's like an update, like againon your phone.
You're getting an update sayingyou know the system has been
updated, do you want to downloadit?
And then you get the newfeatures.
(19:38):
Well, that's the same thingwith conflict.
Conflict is bringinginnovations, bringing new ideas.
So people are frightened.
The conflict gets stuck.
They can't move forward, and Ithink that's really difficult
for young people now, because alot of old people are really
frightened of conflict.
So every time someone speaksand someone else is putting them
down without actually listeningto what they're saying.
(19:59):
They're just putting them downbecause of the volume of the
voice or because the languagethat they use, or because
they're excited about Somethingor because they're contesting
some injustice, and people aresaying no, no, no, no.
You know, if you speak, youhave to speak this way.
And the nice thing aboutrestorative spaces is, finally,
this is a space where we canspeak the truth.
This is a space where we're notfrightened of the fact that
(20:22):
there's a difference, becausewe're dialoguing, so it's not
dangerous.
Michael Jones (20:28):
Thank you for the answer.
Katie Thomas (20:29):
I love that analogy of, yeah, restorative
work and connecting throughconflict as being like an up a
phone or technology beingNeeding to upgrade and really
hone in on that relationship andthe fact that it can take form
in so many different, likeIndividualized ways.
That's really interesting and,if you don't mind, I'd like to
(20:50):
pivot us a little bit to justSome things that you've been
touching on a little bit alreadyabout our society in the way
that we are approachingrestorative practices.
Why do you think now,especially in society, currently
in 2023?
Why do you think, being a risein restorative practices through
schools, criminal justicesystems and workplaces?
(21:13):
Why, right now, is thatbecoming more prominent in our
society?
Dominic Barter (21:16):
Yeah, I think there's probably two reasons.
One is the, the.
Is it doing things unable todeal with going on?
So the, the institutions, youknow, the police, the courts,
the prisons, much going on, andthe way in which they're
organized, the use of punishmentas a way of resolving conflict,
obviously ineffective.
(21:38):
That a pressure within thosesystems.
They know that they are a sureresponse to injustice but much
of the time they know they arealso injustice.
So what's called the justicesystem, like it has to produce
justice right, that's in thename.
If, like, a certain degree ofthe population looking them,
(21:59):
saying, yeah, that ain't justice, that's a fortune.
And damage the community ishuge.
Like you know, I'm losing mydad for 12 years and I don't get
to see him.
My brother just disappears forfour years.
You know he.
He doesn't finish school, hedoesn't go into work.
Like everybody's gonna beaffected by that.
And we know that we can.
We can measure those things.
(22:20):
If you get put in prison, weknow that your children's teeth
won't be as good Like the crazycorrespondence, but we can
measure.
It's just a fact.
So the current system isn'tkeeping us safe, isn't
strengthening communities andit's just producing more and
more pain.
So I think that's one reason alot of people are looking
(22:41):
systems saying I can't believeit.
Is this really the best we cando?
I was just in Maine last weekand they spend basically around
twenty three thousand dollars ayear putting a kid through
school $46,000 a year puttingsomeone in prison Like, just by
coincidence, exactly twice asmuch to lock someone up.
If someone a good education.
So after a while.
(23:04):
But I start thinking, is thisreally a good idea?
Plus, going to prison increasesthe chance that you're gonna
commit more crime when you leave.
It doesn't change you, itdoesn't educate you.
There's always some, but a lotof people.
They're just sitting thereBiting their time, waiting till
they can get out.
So I think that's one, one bigreason.
And the second big reason isthat starting to educate
(23:25):
themselves more and more,starting to realize okay, will
these systems of oppression,this whole colonial project, it
doesn't have to be like that.
Okay, it's been like that forfour or five hundred years.
That's, that's a lot of pressure.
It's in our heads, it's notjust in our political, social
world, it's in our relationshipswith each other.
So dismantling it is complexand the language I use, it's in
(23:48):
my posture, it's in myrelationships, even when the
people I really love, I end uprepeating those same dynamics,
even if I don't want to dosomething which someone else's
experiences is repressive.
So if I'm gonna dismantle thisinside my head, in my
relationships and in society,then I need to stop waiting for
(24:08):
some you know big plan that'sgonna come and solve things.
I need to start working now andagain young people at the
forefront of I'm not waiting,start doing this right now.
Like that thing that you saidto me yesterday that was sexist,
that thing that just happened,that was racist, that just it
wasn't just what it was.
It was also this other thing akind of awareness and
sensitivity and, in a good sense, that intolerance like I'm not
(24:30):
gonna stand for it.
That work and that energy andthat creativeness and that kind
of persistence that young peopleare putting into it.
I think that's the other reasonthere's such a rise in in
restorative practices, becausethere's a demand for it and
we're re reproducing some of theproblems and communities, so
that I think I think that reallyhelps.
(24:52):
That's kind of the worst thingreally, when you set off to do
something else and then yourealize, oh my goodness, I am
repeating the same dynamics thatI want to.
I want to mantle in otherplaces, like playing someone,
like when millions of peoplegang up on someone to counsel
someone.
How is fundamentally?
How is that different from acourtroom where we just decide
to do something that's not right, from from a courtroom where we
(25:13):
just decide who's good andwho's bad and then we just all
punish who's bad?
So I think a lot of people arestarting to think if we're gonna
do things differently, we gotto do things differently.
You can't just have it in yourhead, you've also got to have it
in practice.
So I think restorativepractices are, I mean, because
people are thinking about thatand Then and they're wondering
(25:33):
how to actually do it, not justto talk about it and dream that
it would be good if it couldhappen.
Michael Jones (25:40):
Reply have never been involved in restorative
practices and feel this need forchange and end these cycles of
oppression.
And how can people get involved, like how can they start?
Dominic Barter (25:51):
Well, I think the first thing is if you've
ever worked out an issue withyour family or with your friends
.
You have been involved inrestorative practices.
You just didn't use that name,so I've never really met anyone
who doesn't know that sometimesyou need to circle up, speak the
truth and make the rightdecision.
To circle up, speak the truthand listen to each other and
then you can work it out.
But there is a differencebetween doing that in an
(26:14):
improvised way and doing it withsome structure.
So people have been re-enactedout like oh, there's you know a
piece of bread around and youknow butter or whatever, and
they and they make a sandwich.
That's one thing.
But another thing is to go intoa kitchen and meet someone who
knows how to work the kitchenand knows how to cook.
It's a whole different thing.
(26:34):
It's all food.
But, like you know, animprovised sandwich is one thing
and a really good meal that's awhole other thing.
And when you're really reallyhungry, you need a good meal.
If the sandwich is all you got,that's what you eat, but it's
not as good.
So I think when we talk aboutrestorative practices, we're
talking about that good meal.
So to make a good meal you needto build a kitchen.
(26:56):
So some of us need to learn howto build conflict kitchens.
We build kitchens for foodBecause there's an art to that.
You can and it's not thatdifficult, but it is a specific
thing, like a classroom is likea little kitchen for learning,
and a kitchen is a kitchen forfood, you know, and there's, I
think there's, there's rooms,there's spaces dedicated
(27:17):
specifically for wanting toconflict.
So one thing is to theseagreements with other people,
this thing I'm calling arestorative system Make
agreements so that not justtoday with this conflict, also
next month, if something elsecomes out, but when something
else comes up because if we'redoing important work, it will.
You know, if the relationshipsare important to us there will
(27:37):
be moments of misunderstanding.
I so rise, it's already readyand set up, waiting for us.
So that's out of the alibi.
And the other one is to startthinking really consciously
about how OG functions, becausewe know about monologues Like I
say my stuff and then you sayyours, but that's not
necessarily enough.
(27:58):
Established connection whenit's damaged or lost.
So what does that pay?
Is it useful to have someoneelse Like an emcee, you know,
like someone who's kind oftaking care of the interaction
between us?
Is that a useful job?
And if it is, what does thatperson do?
So they don't interfere, butthey do support us to listen to
(28:18):
each other.
So luckily, these days, thereare increasing numbers of people
who dedicate their time tounderstanding these things and
can help others.
So I know that that's one ofthe things that you do.
It's there in the four thingsthat you mentioned.
The beginning of the programGreat.
You know, mk Gandhi Instituteis a resource and many schools
(28:38):
now have someone who knowssomething about this or have the
beginning of some kind ofpractice, and in many
communities there are people whoare self-educating who can be a
source of understanding.
So I think the thing is tofirstly always remember you
already know how to do this, youalready do it, so you don't
give up your own wisdom.
But if you can meet someonewho's thought about it more and
(29:00):
dedicated their time to it, thatcould be a really great
resource.
Erin Thompson (29:05):
Dominic, is the restorative process infinitely
scalable or does it reach apoint of, like diminishing
returns or where it starts tobuckle under its own weight?
Is it just for little smallgroups or can involve
communities and countries, oryou know?
Dominic Barter (29:22):
Yeah, I wish I knew Okay, Because we need like
large scale you know, every weekthere's some new violent
conflict happening in the world.
I was in Ukraine just a coupleof weeks before the invasion
happened and people didn't knowthe invasion was coming, but
they knew there was somethinggoing on.
You know there was already lowlevel fighting in the east of
(29:43):
the country and I got to hangout with people who were right
there on the front line thatwork.
I got to meet folks in thegovernment who were saying okay,
so along what they call thecontact line, which is the point
at which the you know, the twofighting forces were meeting, we
need to set up a series ofrestorative systems along this
line, on a village level, sothat when there's conflict we
(30:05):
can do something about it.
And I know there are peopledoing that kind of work in
Palestine and Israel, you know,who at the moment are just
having to shelter and try andsave their life.
So the sooner we can set upthese practices at scale the
better, because we never knowwhen we're going to need them.
And it's the same in our owncommunities and our own families
.
You know things might be okaynow.
(30:25):
We don't know what's going tohappen tomorrow.
You know, accident or not, anaccident happens, someone gets
hurt, and then peoplejustifiably rise up because they
can't tolerate that kind ofoppression anymore, and yet the
only tools they have are thepetition of the old ways.
So in how to fight back atscale in productive ways,
(30:47):
through dialogue, I have torecognize that there, yeah,
there's a lot of us who aretraining our muscles to be able
to get there, and more and morepeople to dedicate themselves to
that as part of theirresponsibility for being part of
a family, part of a community,part of a neighborhood.
So there's amazing work beingdone to try and scale this up.
But most of our kind ofinspiring stories are still at a
(31:11):
recently low level.
But in Brazil, we done, we doneokay.
You know, 28 years ago that wasme just wandering around the
favelas talking to kids.
Within about 18 years, we werein the justice system, like
mentally celebrated ouranniversary, as it were, setting
up a system that took a millionpeople in a little of a state
(31:31):
in the south of Brazil.
So all use crime for a millionpeople.
When it went to court, thejudge would say two options.
You can do it the old way I'mhere for that or, if you want to
, in the room next door you cansit down with the people you
heard.
You can sit down with everyoneelse involved your neighbors,
family members.
You choose, not us, it's goingto choose for you.
(31:53):
The people involved will say,no, this person needs to be here
, this person needs to be hereand you can listen to each other
and you can come to anagreement, not like you know oh,
I promise I won't do it againon the handshake but like a
concrete agreement to meet theneeds that weren't met before.
We need to see evidence thathas changed, that things are
different, and if you needresources for that, then we need
(32:15):
to organize those resources.
So this is going to be asimpactful as the original act.
Like you went into a bar, youhold someone up, you took the
money from the till.
The action agreement has to beas powerful as that.
That changed your life Now.
Now we're looking for a newchange.
It has to be as serious and ifyou're doing that day in and day
(32:36):
out and you're making thatlevel agreement and you're
checking them, it's not likegood luck and bye-bye In two
weeks.
I want to see the results Inthree months.
I want to see the results Ayear later.
I'm going to be checking in.
So when you do that and you dothat all through the day and we
had like several rooms workingat once, we had people coming in
and coming out of circles everyday.
(32:57):
That's not quite the same as, Ithink, the scale that you were
talking about, but it's prettypowerful because you're also
producing stories.
Like everyone who participatedin a meeting like that, you know
, I've been saying I just didLike I just saw someone who had
their store held up on elseoffer that guy a job and that
guy it sounds crazy.
(33:18):
That guy said, yeah, because Iwas thinking which store to rob
and I robbed your store becauseI think it's so cool.
I mean I heard that and I was.
He was really excited.
Yeah, I really take care of mystore.
You know, I'm glad that youappreciate it.
And he ends up working thereand again, we're checking three
weeks, in three months, in ayear in.
So that kind of scale I thinkwe do know how to do the big
(33:40):
scale how to respond to, likelarge urban disturbances, how to
respond to moments of war.
Michael Jones (33:46):
We're working on it and we're not there.
Hearing that we have notexperimented with this at scale.
Is there any data onrestorative practices and their
effects?
Dominic Barter (33:58):
There's a lot.
We've been really lucky.
A lot of people in universitiesreally like measuring what we
do.
So you know, I like the stories, like the one I just told, but
they like the numbers and I'velearned to like the numbers over
time.
So the besetivism rate, whichis the tendency of people to do
the same crime again, thatdefinitely diminishes with
(34:19):
almost all restorative projects.
So that's great.
So it proves I would ratherchoose a harmonious way of
living with others when they can.
Sometimes they just don't knowhow to, and a restorative
practice can be a really usefulway of effacing that.
They have a need.
They don't want to give it up.
They don't know how to expressit in the other way.
Okay, well, that's not just anindividual responsibility,
(34:43):
that's the whole community isresponsible for that, because
people don't invent painfulbehavior.
You know people don't inventnew crimes.
They learn them and they learnthem from society.
So if we want them to learn newways of behaving, we're gonna
provide new examples.
I mean need spaces where we canwork that out.
So restorative practice mightbe that space.
And that's yet greatercommunity safety, strength in
(35:05):
relationships.
You get more agile communitiesand we have all the numbers to
show this and you get peoplerecovering from trauma.
You get people recovering froma lot of pain.
So in that example I just gavewith the robbery and the bar,
when we interviewed the youngguy who'd been held up working
in the bar afterwards we saidwhat's the main effect that you
had from that circle?
(35:26):
And he said the monster's gone.
So I didn't believe that thatwas a person anymore.
He was just like he was thefigure I saw in my nightmares
and I was terrified of him everyday, even if I didn't see him.
So in the action agreement theymade for that circle, he
actually said to the guy I wantyou to come back to the bar
(35:47):
Three times in the next coupleof months.
I don't want you to do anything, I'm not gonna tell anyone who
you are, just want you to comein, order a drink and leave,
because I need like a reminderthat when I see your face, that
doesn't automatically meandanger.
So we know that it reduceslevels of traumatic stress.
So when someone has beenthrough a really upsetting
(36:08):
experience, they get that traumain their body, that kind of
jumpiness that relax even whennothing's happening.
So it diminishes that level ofstress.
So yeah, we have good numbersthat this is an effective way of
individuals, relationships andcommunities healing from fear
and learning to be stronger.
Because a strong community isnot a community without conflict
(36:29):
.
It's a community thatunderstands the position of
conflict, the contribution thatit makes, and understands how to
channel that energy intosomething positive.
Like Gandhi said, it's likeelectricity it can electrocute
you or it can give you light.
So the difference is how youchannel it.
Erin Thompson (36:54):
We have a few minutes left.
Are there a message that youwould share with folks who are
intrigued by what they'rehearing today, or find out more
about things restorative I'mcurious about, like how to
proliferate around the worldrestorative practices in a way
that's full and in keeping kindof with the true intent,
(37:15):
considering there's not acentralized certification body
and such.
So I guess, kind of those twothings.
What are your thoughts as theprospects for restorative
practices proliferatingmeaningfully around the world
and any other kind of closingthoughts that you would share
with us?
Dominic Barter (37:31):
I think the first thing is to trust your own
creativity and trust the carethat you have for the people in
your family, your friends, thepeople you hang out with, people
you work with.
People care deeply about theirown communities and this is one
of the ways in which we showthat care is we understand when
someone's upset that we can'tjust dismiss that Some of it is.
(37:54):
You know they're raising theirvoice, they're speaking more
loudly because it's moreimportant that they're heard and
because there's distance.
They're experiencing thatpeople are far away from them.
So they're shouting to kind ofbridge that distance and move
closer, move towards conflictand then we're gonna have safer
relationships.
Some idea we have that conflictis dangerous so we back away
(38:16):
from it and actually what itneeds is his proximity.
So I think that's one thingRecognize that the absence of
dialogue is fatal.
We can't live together if wedon't listen to each other and
if we're not speaking the truthto each other.
So you know, first of all youlose understanding between each
(38:37):
other, then you lose therelationship, then lives start
getting lost.
So you can interrupt that cycleat any moment and move in the
opposite direction and thensearch out people who have that
wisdom.
Some of the people who have thatwisdom use terms like
restorative justice.
So go after them, like you know, knock on the door here at the
Institute and ask what'shappening.
(38:57):
How can I get some of this?
I heard it's good, I want some.
You know my school doesn't haveit.
I want it.
Ask, talk to teachers, talk toelders, talk to your parents,
talk to friends and colleagues.
But a lot of people who havethis wisdom don't use their name
restorative justice.
They've just always been thereand they're always looking out
(39:18):
and so they learn.
So in smaller communities, youknow, the old people used to sit
outside in the afternoon, youknow, drag up a chair and just
sit on the stoop or sit on thestreet and just watch.
And those are the people youcould go to when you were lost,
when you were confused, whenthere was pain and they knew
stuff.
And now it's harder.
We can't just walk down thestreet and find those people
(39:40):
every day.
Some of us still can.
That's great, but most of uscan't anymore.
But looking for those peopleand listening to them and
learning from them can be really, really valuable.
And then the internet is thisincredible source of wisdom, so
you can see people doing thisstuff all over the world.
You can see what we do inBrazil, you know.
You can just search for it andpeople can write to me if they
(40:00):
want to and find out what I'mdoing.
I'm always happy to hear frompeople who are curious about
what's happening.
Erin Thompson (40:08):
How would they do that?
Dominic Barter (40:09):
How would they connect to you?
You can search for me it's alittle strange to say in English
because my handles are all inPortuguese but contato
C-O-N-T-A-T-O, then DominicD-O-M-I-N-I-C.
That's my Instagram and that'salso my email address,
contatodominiquecom, so you cansend me a message there.
(40:33):
I'm always happy to talk topeople.
Erin Thompson (40:37):
This has been good.
Thank you for your time today,Dominic.
Appreciate your wisdom and yoursteady efforts.
Thank you.
Katie Thomas (40:44):
Yeah, thank you so much for being here.
Michael Jones (40:46):
It's been a pleasure to have you here in
Rochester.
Dominic Barter (40:48):
Yeah, thanks so much for all that you're doing
locally.
It's a really powerful exampleand it's amazing to be able to
come and visit and learn fromyou and share a little bit of
what we're doing.
Erin Thompson (40:58):
This has been Perspectives on Peace,
transforming tomorrow with ourguest Dominic Bader.
Take care, folks.
Welcome to Perspectives on Peace
Transforming Tomorrow thepodcast of the MK Gandhi
Institute for Nonviolence.
My name is Aaron Thompson.
I'm joined with my podcastcolleagues Michael Jones.
Katie Thomas (00:12):
And Katie Thomas.
Erin Thompson (00:14):
And in this podcast we discuss the four
pillars, if you will, where theInstitute focuses its activities
, those being nonviolence,education, anti-racism, work of
practices and sustainability.
And so we have as our guestDominic Barter, who is engaged
(00:35):
in sort of work, especially inspecifically restorative circles
, which is a theft in practicethat we'll be exploring along
with his led him into this workand its applications and its
prospects world today.
Happy to have you here, Dominic, welcome.
Thanks so much.
(00:55):
Tell us what restorativecircles are or what are
practices.
These are new terms to ourlisteners.
Dominic Barter (01:04):
Sure, basically, when we have meaningful
relationships with other people,at some point we're going to
have conflict, and I think thathappens because the important
subjects come up with theimportant people, and so every
relationship, every group ofpeople who hang out together,
eventually will have some way ofresponding to conflict, making
(01:26):
sure that we can learn from it,that it can strengthen our
connections, that it can bringnew ideas and new possibilities.
So it's not a negative thing,but I think we've become
accustomed to seeing itnegatively, because the ways
that have been imposed on us torespond to conflict like
deciding who's right and who'swrong, punishing people, trying
(01:48):
to educate them through violencebasically exclusion, separation
of people, lack ofunderstanding between them the
ways that have been imposed onus have created such tension
that often, rather thancontribute to strengthening our
relationships, conflict turnsinto violence and then it turns
into really horrific memories,fear, that sense of danger.
(02:13):
Anytime there's a disagreement,people tense up, and so
restorative practices are simplya recognition that can
rediscover the ways in whichpeople, relationships, emerge
through a missing conflict, andwe can recognize that conflict
is actually more likely when you.
Violence is more likely whenyou fear conflict than it is
(02:34):
when you understand it and moveinto it and listen to each other
deeply and find out what'swrong and make the changes.
Erin Thompson (02:42):
Give us an idea about how you actually got into
work?
Dominic Barter (02:46):
I moved to Rio in Brazil in 1992.
And Rio is a that's where I'velived ever since.
And Rio is this beautiful citythat you see images of online
beaches and forest, amazingculture and people but it's also
a really troubled city wherethere's incredible disparities
(03:07):
of wealth, people in shantytowns living in really desperate
situations, and then you getpeople living like rich people
in the US and everyone rightnext to each other.
So naturally there's a lot ofpain.
That that generates a lot offear and a lot of division, and
so conflict emerges, like justlike it does anywhere.
(03:28):
But because there's thismechanism saying we've got to
keep this difference, we've gotto keep the poor poor and we've
got to keep the rich rich, youget a lot of violence as well.
So for me, it was reallyshocking to want to live in this
beautiful place and, the sametime, to be subject to this,
basically like a civil war.
So I wanted to start doingthings and people told me well,
(03:49):
that's nice, but like it'sreally dangerous.
You can't do anything.
And who are you?
You didn't grow up here andlike where's your organization,
where are the skills you know,where's your money and where's
the team?
It was true, I didn't have anyof that, I started thinking
about what I might be able to dothat wasn't as dangerous as
people said it was, but wasstill effective, and it seemed
(04:11):
to me the only way I was goingto begin to be able to begin was
by listening to people to findout what was going on, and even
that they said you can't do andyou can't listen to those folks
though and it's the drug gangs,they're the terrorists, they're
whatever and it seemed thatnothing was ever going to happen
unless there was that basiclistening.
So I just started listening tokids on street corners.
(04:31):
That was it, like.
The first group was like eight,nine years old.
They were just sitting on thecoyote doing nothing, and
they're always curious like youknow, who's the guy with the
funny accent, where are you from?
And we started chatting, and itwas through that conversation
that just started hanging outwith them, and sometimes we kick
a ball around or that, and, youknow, maybe someone trips
(04:52):
someone else up because they getyou know like really into the
game and there's that moment oftension as a standoff Anything
what's going to happen and Irealized that, okay, so hanging
out is good, that strengthensthe connection with people and
when there's a strength andconnection, there's a better
relationship.
And then you're one thing youcan see, if not the actual
healing you can, but you canjust see the people, people
together, more trust, ownership.
(05:14):
But how do you do that whenthere's conflict?
So that was what I was reallycurious about.
So we just started improvising.
Katie Thomas (05:21):
So one person said yeah, you tripped me over.
You've done that before.
Dominic Barter (05:25):
You know.
And then there's that returnLike immediately the other guy's
defending himself and they gohold on, I don't know if you
heard each other first.
So it's like super basic, justchecking Message sent, is
message received or not, becauseoften it gets lost, it gets
confused and we found just byimprovising like this, just by
playing, really, that often wedidn't understand each other.
(05:47):
And then I would go homethinking, wow, that's just like
me at home, that's just like me,my sister, when I was their age
, just the same.
You know, my mom was tired andoverworked, my dad wasn't there,
and so my mom would shout, ormy mom would just close the door
and say I can't handle it, yousort it out, or whatever.
I got interested in how we dothat.
How do we do the sorting out?
Because I never talk about that.
(06:07):
We always talk about whenthere's trouble.
No one comes up to me in schooland says so you were having an
argument yesterday with a friendand then you sort it out.
Good job, get why they don't dothat.
But at the same time didnothing happen, because when I
didn't sort it out, I'm going topunch someone or whatever.
They paid attention, then wegot loads of attention.
Then they were super interestedin us.
(06:28):
So I got really interested inhow are people sorting out most
of their conflict most of thetime, and it seemed the same
even in conditions almost likewar in Rio.
And so, working with these kids, we basically developed in our
core restorative circles.
We developed a way sit down, acommunity agreement that when
conflict gets painful we sitdown and we dialogue.
(06:50):
We worked out what does thatmean for us?
What does dialogue mean for us?
What does it look likehappening?
How do we know we got there?
What does it mean to make anagreement?
How can you check that theagreement has actually happened?
How can you check if it waseffective or not?
So all that stuff came out ofhanging out with the kids in the
favela, in the shanty.
Erin Thompson (07:09):
And I introduced you as a person who is deeply
rooted in this work.
You're really the force behindrestorative circles, terro
restorative circles andbrainwork that is employed
places around the world now,especially Brazil in particular,
where you began your work, butit's international at this point
(07:31):
.
Dominic Barter (07:32):
Yeah, I think it's those kids who are the
driving force behind it, likeI'm the spokesman, that's really
like I'm here because I speakEnglish and because I get to
travel.
I think it's that communitywisdom that actually makes
happen everywhere you go.
And we found that basically thesame thing that those kids and
their older brothers and sisterscame up with in the shanty town
(07:53):
, even while they were workingfor the gangs, while, you know,
some of them would walk aroundarmed.
Now I'm thinking of one of themin particular who I spoke to
right at the very beginning, andhe was actually on patrol at
the time.
He was what called a falcon,which is someone who is pork.
So there is, these people aregutted for that, so they watch
(08:14):
to see if the police areinvading or if a rival gang is
invading.
So he had to be armed while wewere chatting and he said no,
I've known this stuff for ages.
It's like a dream asleep in myheart, and talking to you about
it wakes it up.
But I really liked that image.
It's not a new idea.
He wasn't inventing it, nor washe learning it from me or
anyone else.
(08:34):
It was already there.
It's just it was asleep,because where is the possibility
of this?
You know, we look around and wego well, that's a beautiful idea
, but that's not realistic.
That's not what my life is like.
So, creating, like waking thatdream up and then working out
the logistics, you know, how doyou actually make that a real
thing and the art of it?
And what I do is I go aroundand I tell stories when I travel
(08:58):
.
You know, when I'm back thereI'm doing the work.
When I travel, I'm telling thatstory, really just to say, you
know, maybe without evennoticing it, you started to
believe that this isn't possible.
Like peace is this beautifulidea but it's not practical,
it's not real world, and it'sjust to say, well, yes, yeah,
thank you so much for talking.
Katie Thomas (09:19):
Yeah, but what brought you to restorative this
is, and really what there are inessence and I kind of have a
question about aren't, and whatsome of them mischievs and
perceptions of restorativecircles are.
What have you heard?
You kind of pushed back already.
Yeah, just wrong thoughts aboutlike what kind of practices are
(09:39):
really?
Dominic Barter (09:40):
Yeah, well, I think the first thing is that
most adults that I meet a friendof conflict.
So the first thing that theythink that this is gonna be is a
way to make conflict go away.
And that's pretty worrying tome because when we're facing so
much injustice, making conflictgo away sounds like just making
(10:00):
everybody more passive.
So I imagine you get that allthe time in relation to the word
nonviolence.
Like people are constantlythinking oh, the word
nonviolence means that you know,everyone calms down and goes
home and lives life as ifnothing is happening.
So it's kind of interesting andwhere you were reading out like
these four things that theGandhi Institute, that the
Gandhi Institute does, like forsome people they'll be going
(10:23):
hold on nonviolence educationand anti-racist work in their
heads.
Maybe they won't even think it,but practically it's like a
contradiction because they thinkthat anti-racist work is likely
to create more conflict, but inthe healthiest sense, because
yeah, we're supporting people tosay, no, you don't actually
(10:44):
have to take that stuff andthere's something that you can
do to overthrow and to transformthose dynamics of oppression
and that daily life in a systemof oppression.
That's not peace.
So a lot of the samemisunderstandings.
People are like, oh great, soyou're gonna make the
disagreements go away.
And really the answer to thatis well, it depends.
(11:04):
Do you wanna live in ademocracy?
Because if you wanna livedemocratically, you're gonna
have more conflict, not less Inthe best sense.
You're gonna have people saying, well, I think the best
solution to this issue over hereis like that, and someone else
says, really, cause, I gotanother idea.
That's democracy.
It's like you know, we talk itout till we find the best idea
and then we test it and we seewhat works.
(11:26):
We keep what works and we chuckwhat doesn't work.
So I think of non-violence andrestorative and democracy as all
being really, reallyinterconnected to each other.
And really the weakness in ourcurrent democracy the reason
people are getting fed up withdemocracy and impatient with it
and starting to dream of bigleaders who just make decisions
on their own is because thedialogue is getting lost.
(11:49):
So non-violence and restorativeare amazing places where you
can say, okay, we're gonna bringthe dialogue back in this
specific area.
So that's a misunderstandingthat it's interesting to look at
.
And the other one is thatpeople still think that all
right, so there's gonna besomeone in the circle who's
gonna tell me who's right andwho's wrong and tell us what to
(12:10):
do, and that's a kind oflaziness that we've got into.
We're just like, we're not usedto it.
But young people are.
I don't see young people.
They know how to sort out theirissues.
So a lot of restorative justicework comes from the young and I
don't think it's surprising.
Erin Thompson (12:27):
And restorative expressly, and I'm wondering if
then just for a moment aboutlike, what circle looks like and
what it's in is.
Dominic Barter (12:36):
Right.
So the first thing is it lookslike what we decide.
It looks like so when a groupof people get together and they
say, okay, so we care about eachother, so we're doing something
important.
So therefore, we know conflictis gonna happen at some point.
That's natural, that's healthy,even that's how we get to the
best solutions.
Sometimes we have to argue itout, sometimes those arguments
(12:59):
get personal, and then we runthe risk of getting lost and
forgetting the connectionbetween us.
We'll then decide how theywanna respond in those moments.
What does dialogue look like toyou?
Like a brother and sister athome, or with your group of
friends or your classmates orwhatever it is, whatever group
you're in.
So there isn't a pattern.
(13:19):
There isn't like a manual thatyou can download that tells you
what to do in a way that, in ourexperience, is sustainable.
You can do that.
There are manuals, you candownload them.
They can be useful, they canget you started, but if you're
just copying other people'sideas, probably not gonna work
as you want them to for you.
So the first thing is torecognize it looks like you.
(13:41):
And the second thing is that itprobably needs to include
certain ingredients, like innerdisagreement in a fight,
misunderstanding between people,there's usually on more people
who have one position the peopleare concerned about.
So you have kind of initiallyhave those two groups.
You probably have a third group.
You probably have the peoplewho care about everyone involved
(14:03):
, the people who are indirectlyaffected by what's going on.
So like if I, if we all worktogether and two of you start
having an argument, then rest ofus are, we're still impacted,
but we're not directly havingthe argument.
So there's something abouthaving that third group there
which is really important,because they have Wisdom that
(14:24):
maybe the two of you don't havebecause you're in the middle of
the heat at the moment.
So most of these practices,most of these circles, will have
some Representative of thesethree groups there.
And then the question is okay,so how do we talk?
Well, we know how to expressourselves, but often we don't
know how to listen.
So you see a lot of that in themoment with social media,
because social media is alwayssaying what do you think, what's
(14:47):
important to you, what do youfeel?
You know, express yourself.
And that's like amazing andpeople are, voices are coming
out that haven't come out forlike hundreds of years.
It's incredible.
So, like in Brazil, we have,like you know, young indigenous
leaders who never had a voiceand now they have millions of
followers.
So we have extraordinarytransformation happening in that
(15:07):
sense, but it's a lot of talkand it's not so much listening.
There's a lot of expression onit and the understanding, yeah,
it's kind of it's not so clear.
So one of the main things thatyou're probably gonna want to
look at is how do we make surethat someone is hearing Not just
the words but the meaning thatthe other person is wanting to
get across?
So we have to work out somesolution for checking the person
(15:32):
is hearing.
The speaker is saying, and thenthe question is okay, the needs
that are in the meeting, inthis situation, and if someone
has done something painful, whatare the good reasons why people
have done the bad things?
Like, what is it that someonewas trying to take care of when
they acted in the way that theydid, when they use those words,
when they did that thing?
Because, if we can get back theoriginal intention and get
(15:56):
beyond the idea that theintention was to hurt, the
intention was to dominate, theintention was to Was to insult
me, and I've got to defend mydignity and we can get out of
that cycle.
It doesn't ask people to givetheir dignity up, like make
peace when it's not really trueinside and like pretend the
fight is over when it isn'treally.
If we can, if we can work outwhat that original need was,
(16:20):
then we can start planning.
Okay, so now we know what's onthe table, what we're dealing
with.
Now we can make a plan to workit out.
And people's creativity is justincredible.
In a moment like that, youdon't need anyone to tell you
what to do.
You know each other better thananyone.
You know the situation, youknow what's at stake.
The people come up with suchcreative solutions.
So probably those three piecesare gonna be that those three
(16:42):
groups of people, like theperson who did the act, or the
people, people who received theimpact of it, and then the
community, and then probablythose three phases like learning
how to hear each other, findingout what it is that we need and
then making a doable plan.
Most circles will probably looklike that.
Michael Jones (17:03):
I don't know you're being understood.
Dominic Barter (17:07):
You know, I think a good question.
Yeah, we can see it in theshift in and other people Saying
something that you're defendingyourself against and you're not
really taking on board.
It's not really.
I mean.
We say it like what I want isunderstanding, I want you to
understand me, but we're nottalking about English.
Like you understood the words Iused.
(17:28):
That's not what we mean.
We mean somehow I know that youfeel what I'm saying and then I
want to know that there's ashift in your attitude because
of that.
So we say that right, do youfeel me?
Yeah that's sometimes don'tthink about what we're saying
when we say those things.
That's a really wise phrase.
The person who says that knowsperfectly well.
(17:49):
It's not about the words, it'sabout something else.
It's about what I call themeaning, like when I know that
you get me see it in your face,I can see it in your eyes.
Something shift so often inpainful conflict that has got
lost.
It's like a phone without asignal.
A Phone without signal is kindof useless.
(18:11):
There's not much you can dowith it.
Take a photograph, that's itreally.
So.
Either signal in order for themessage to get across and I
think there's signals betweenhumans as well and sometimes
that signal is strong andsometimes it gets weak and
sometimes it drops all together.
When it drops all together,we're in danger, because that's
when people start creating thesekind of monster images of each
(18:33):
other, these scary ideas in theheads.
They dehumanize each other.
They don't see the other personas being Part of the community,
having a legitimate voice,having a legitimate place,
whatever group you're part of,when it gets dangerous.
So every time there's violence,every time there's painful
conflict, I'm looking for thesignal.
How's the connection going?
(18:53):
Is the connection strong?
Because the connection isn'tstrong, it doesn't matter what
brilliant things we're saying toeach other, my words aren't
going to reach you right now.
Without the internet, no one'shearing what we're saying.
So what we're saying is notinternet, internet, internet.
But without it, no one's.
No one's able to hear us.
We're just talking on our ownin a room.
(19:14):
So I'm always looking for thesignal, for the connection.
When the connection is strong,then we're looking for the
action which transforms.
Whatever dynamic is painful,because that's what conflict
wants.
Conflict wants change.
Conflict isn't a bad thing, it'sa good thing.
It's like an update, like againon your phone.
You're getting an update sayingyou know the system has been
updated, do you want to downloadit?
And then you get the newfeatures.
(19:38):
Well, that's the same thingwith conflict.
Conflict is bringinginnovations, bringing new ideas.
So people are frightened.
The conflict gets stuck.
They can't move forward, and Ithink that's really difficult
for young people now, because alot of old people are really
frightened of conflict.
So every time someone speaksand someone else is putting them
down without actually listeningto what they're saying.
(19:59):
They're just putting them downbecause of the volume of the
voice or because the languagethat they use, or because
they're excited about Somethingor because they're contesting
some injustice, and people aresaying no, no, no, no.
You know, if you speak, youhave to speak this way.
And the nice thing aboutrestorative spaces is, finally,
this is a space where we canspeak the truth.
This is a space where we're notfrightened of the fact that
(20:22):
there's a difference, becausewe're dialoguing, so it's not
dangerous.
Michael Jones (20:28):
Thank you for the answer.
Katie Thomas (20:29):
I love that analogy of, yeah, restorative
work and connecting throughconflict as being like an up a
phone or technology beingNeeding to upgrade and really
hone in on that relationship andthe fact that it can take form
in so many different, likeIndividualized ways.
That's really interesting and,if you don't mind, I'd like to
(20:50):
pivot us a little bit to justSome things that you've been
touching on a little bit alreadyabout our society in the way
that we are approachingrestorative practices.
Why do you think now,especially in society, currently
in 2023?
Why do you think, being a risein restorative practices through
schools, criminal justicesystems and workplaces?
(21:13):
Why, right now, is thatbecoming more prominent in our
society?
Dominic Barter (21:16):
Yeah, I think there's probably two reasons.
One is the, the.
Is it doing things unable todeal with going on?
So the, the institutions, youknow, the police, the courts,
the prisons, much going on, andthe way in which they're
organized, the use of punishmentas a way of resolving conflict,
obviously ineffective.
(21:38):
That a pressure within thosesystems.
They know that they are a sureresponse to injustice but much
of the time they know they arealso injustice.
So what's called the justicesystem, like it has to produce
justice right, that's in thename.
If, like, a certain degree ofthe population looking them,
(21:59):
saying, yeah, that ain't justice, that's a fortune.
And damage the community ishuge.
Like you know, I'm losing mydad for 12 years and I don't get
to see him.
My brother just disappears forfour years.
You know he.
He doesn't finish school, hedoesn't go into work.
Like everybody's gonna beaffected by that.
And we know that we can.
We can measure those things.
(22:20):
If you get put in prison, weknow that your children's teeth
won't be as good Like the crazycorrespondence, but we can
measure.
It's just a fact.
So the current system isn'tkeeping us safe, isn't
strengthening communities andit's just producing more and
more pain.
So I think that's one reason alot of people are looking
(22:41):
systems saying I can't believeit.
Is this really the best we cando?
I was just in Maine last weekand they spend basically around
twenty three thousand dollars ayear putting a kid through
school $46,000 a year puttingsomeone in prison Like, just by
coincidence, exactly twice asmuch to lock someone up.
If someone a good education.
So after a while.
(23:04):
But I start thinking, is thisreally a good idea?
Plus, going to prison increasesthe chance that you're gonna
commit more crime when you leave.
It doesn't change you, itdoesn't educate you.
There's always some, but a lotof people.
They're just sitting thereBiting their time, waiting till
they can get out.
So I think that's one, one bigreason.
And the second big reason isthat starting to educate
(23:25):
themselves more and more,starting to realize okay, will
these systems of oppression,this whole colonial project, it
doesn't have to be like that.
Okay, it's been like that forfour or five hundred years.
That's, that's a lot of pressure.
It's in our heads, it's notjust in our political, social
world, it's in our relationshipswith each other.
So dismantling it is complexand the language I use, it's in
(23:48):
my posture, it's in myrelationships, even when the
people I really love, I end uprepeating those same dynamics,
even if I don't want to dosomething which someone else's
experiences is repressive.
So if I'm gonna dismantle thisinside my head, in my
relationships and in society,then I need to stop waiting for
(24:08):
some you know big plan that'sgonna come and solve things.
I need to start working now andagain young people at the
forefront of I'm not waiting,start doing this right now.
Like that thing that you saidto me yesterday that was sexist,
that thing that just happened,that was racist, that just it
wasn't just what it was.
It was also this other thing akind of awareness and
sensitivity and, in a good sense, that intolerance like I'm not
(24:30):
gonna stand for it.
That work and that energy andthat creativeness and that kind
of persistence that young peopleare putting into it.
I think that's the other reasonthere's such a rise in in
restorative practices, becausethere's a demand for it and
we're re reproducing some of theproblems and communities, so
that I think I think that reallyhelps.
(24:52):
That's kind of the worst thingreally, when you set off to do
something else and then yourealize, oh my goodness, I am
repeating the same dynamics thatI want to.
I want to mantle in otherplaces, like playing someone,
like when millions of peoplegang up on someone to counsel
someone.
How is fundamentally?
How is that different from acourtroom where we just decide
to do something that's not right, from from a courtroom where we
(25:13):
just decide who's good andwho's bad and then we just all
punish who's bad?
So I think a lot of people arestarting to think if we're gonna
do things differently, we gotto do things differently.
You can't just have it in yourhead, you've also got to have it
in practice.
So I think restorativepractices are, I mean, because
people are thinking about thatand Then and they're wondering
(25:33):
how to actually do it, not justto talk about it and dream that
it would be good if it couldhappen.
Michael Jones (25:40):
Reply have never been involved in restorative
practices and feel this need forchange and end these cycles of
oppression.
And how can people get involved, like how can they start?
Dominic Barter (25:51):
Well, I think the first thing is if you've
ever worked out an issue withyour family or with your friends
.
You have been involved inrestorative practices.
You just didn't use that name,so I've never really met anyone
who doesn't know that sometimesyou need to circle up, speak the
truth and make the rightdecision.
To circle up, speak the truthand listen to each other and
then you can work it out.
But there is a differencebetween doing that in an
(26:14):
improvised way and doing it withsome structure.
So people have been re-enactedout like oh, there's you know a
piece of bread around and youknow butter or whatever, and
they and they make a sandwich.
That's one thing.
But another thing is to go intoa kitchen and meet someone who
knows how to work the kitchenand knows how to cook.
It's a whole different thing.
(26:34):
It's all food.
But, like you know, animprovised sandwich is one thing
and a really good meal that's awhole other thing.
And when you're really reallyhungry, you need a good meal.
If the sandwich is all you got,that's what you eat, but it's
not as good.
So I think when we talk aboutrestorative practices, we're
talking about that good meal.
So to make a good meal you needto build a kitchen.
(26:56):
So some of us need to learn howto build conflict kitchens.
We build kitchens for foodBecause there's an art to that.
You can and it's not thatdifficult, but it is a specific
thing, like a classroom is likea little kitchen for learning,
and a kitchen is a kitchen forfood, you know, and there's, I
think there's, there's rooms,there's spaces dedicated
(27:17):
specifically for wanting toconflict.
So one thing is to theseagreements with other people,
this thing I'm calling arestorative system Make
agreements so that not justtoday with this conflict, also
next month, if something elsecomes out, but when something
else comes up because if we'redoing important work, it will.
You know, if the relationshipsare important to us there will
(27:37):
be moments of misunderstanding.
I so rise, it's already readyand set up, waiting for us.
So that's out of the alibi.
And the other one is to startthinking really consciously
about how OG functions, becausewe know about monologues Like I
say my stuff and then you sayyours, but that's not
necessarily enough.
(27:58):
Established connection whenit's damaged or lost.
So what does that pay?
Is it useful to have someoneelse Like an emcee, you know,
like someone who's kind oftaking care of the interaction
between us?
Is that a useful job?
And if it is, what does thatperson do?
So they don't interfere, butthey do support us to listen to
(28:18):
each other.
So luckily, these days, thereare increasing numbers of people
who dedicate their time tounderstanding these things and
can help others.
So I know that that's one ofthe things that you do.
It's there in the four thingsthat you mentioned.
The beginning of the programGreat.
You know, mk Gandhi Instituteis a resource and many schools
(28:38):
now have someone who knowssomething about this or have the
beginning of some kind ofpractice, and in many
communities there are people whoare self-educating who can be a
source of understanding.
So I think the thing is tofirstly always remember you
already know how to do this, youalready do it, so you don't
give up your own wisdom.
But if you can meet someonewho's thought about it more and
(29:00):
dedicated their time to it, thatcould be a really great
resource.
Erin Thompson (29:05):
Dominic, is the restorative process infinitely
scalable or does it reach apoint of, like diminishing
returns or where it starts tobuckle under its own weight?
Is it just for little smallgroups or can involve
communities and countries, oryou know?
Dominic Barter (29:22):
Yeah, I wish I knew Okay, Because we need like
large scale you know, every weekthere's some new violent
conflict happening in the world.
I was in Ukraine just a coupleof weeks before the invasion
happened and people didn't knowthe invasion was coming, but
they knew there was somethinggoing on.
You know there was already lowlevel fighting in the east of
(29:43):
the country and I got to hangout with people who were right
there on the front line thatwork.
I got to meet folks in thegovernment who were saying okay,
so along what they call thecontact line, which is the point
at which the you know, the twofighting forces were meeting, we
need to set up a series ofrestorative systems along this
line, on a village level, sothat when there's conflict we
(30:05):
can do something about it.
And I know there are peopledoing that kind of work in
Palestine and Israel, you know,who at the moment are just
having to shelter and try andsave their life.
So the sooner we can set upthese practices at scale the
better, because we never knowwhen we're going to need them.
And it's the same in our owncommunities and our own families
.
You know things might be okaynow.
(30:25):
We don't know what's going tohappen tomorrow.
You know, accident or not, anaccident happens, someone gets
hurt, and then peoplejustifiably rise up because they
can't tolerate that kind ofoppression anymore, and yet the
only tools they have are thepetition of the old ways.
So in how to fight back atscale in productive ways,
(30:47):
through dialogue, I have torecognize that there, yeah,
there's a lot of us who aretraining our muscles to be able
to get there, and more and morepeople to dedicate themselves to
that as part of theirresponsibility for being part of
a family, part of a community,part of a neighborhood.
So there's amazing work beingdone to try and scale this up.
But most of our kind ofinspiring stories are still at a
(31:11):
recently low level.
But in Brazil, we done, we doneokay.
You know, 28 years ago that wasme just wandering around the
favelas talking to kids.
Within about 18 years, we werein the justice system, like
mentally celebrated ouranniversary, as it were, setting
up a system that took a millionpeople in a little of a state
(31:31):
in the south of Brazil.
So all use crime for a millionpeople.
When it went to court, thejudge would say two options.
You can do it the old way I'mhere for that or, if you want to
, in the room next door you cansit down with the people you
heard.
You can sit down with everyoneelse involved your neighbors,
family members.
You choose, not us, it's goingto choose for you.
(31:53):
The people involved will say,no, this person needs to be here
, this person needs to be hereand you can listen to each other
and you can come to anagreement, not like you know oh,
I promise I won't do it againon the handshake but like a
concrete agreement to meet theneeds that weren't met before.
We need to see evidence thathas changed, that things are
different, and if you needresources for that, then we need
(32:15):
to organize those resources.
So this is going to be asimpactful as the original act.
Like you went into a bar, youhold someone up, you took the
money from the till.
The action agreement has to beas powerful as that.
That changed your life Now.
Now we're looking for a newchange.
It has to be as serious and ifyou're doing that day in and day
(32:36):
out and you're making thatlevel agreement and you're
checking them, it's not likegood luck and bye-bye In two
weeks.
I want to see the results Inthree months.
I want to see the results Ayear later.
I'm going to be checking in.
So when you do that and you dothat all through the day and we
had like several rooms workingat once, we had people coming in
and coming out of circles everyday.
(32:57):
That's not quite the same as, Ithink, the scale that you were
talking about, but it's prettypowerful because you're also
producing stories.
Like everyone who participatedin a meeting like that, you know
, I've been saying I just didLike I just saw someone who had
their store held up on elseoffer that guy a job and that
guy it sounds crazy.
(33:18):
That guy said, yeah, because Iwas thinking which store to rob
and I robbed your store becauseI think it's so cool.
I mean I heard that and I was.
He was really excited.
Yeah, I really take care of mystore.
You know, I'm glad that youappreciate it.
And he ends up working thereand again, we're checking three
weeks, in three months, in ayear in.
So that kind of scale I thinkwe do know how to do the big
(33:40):
scale how to respond to, likelarge urban disturbances, how to
respond to moments of war.
Michael Jones (33:46):
We're working on it and we're not there.
Hearing that we have notexperimented with this at scale.
Is there any data onrestorative practices and their
effects?
Dominic Barter (33:58):
There's a lot.
We've been really lucky.
A lot of people in universitiesreally like measuring what we
do.
So you know, I like the stories, like the one I just told, but
they like the numbers and I'velearned to like the numbers over
time.
So the besetivism rate, whichis the tendency of people to do
the same crime again, thatdefinitely diminishes with
(34:19):
almost all restorative projects.
So that's great.
So it proves I would ratherchoose a harmonious way of
living with others when they can.
Sometimes they just don't knowhow to, and a restorative
practice can be a really usefulway of effacing that.
They have a need.
They don't want to give it up.
They don't know how to expressit in the other way.
Okay, well, that's not just anindividual responsibility,
(34:43):
that's the whole community isresponsible for that, because
people don't invent painfulbehavior.
You know people don't inventnew crimes.
They learn them and they learnthem from society.
So if we want them to learn newways of behaving, we're gonna
provide new examples.
I mean need spaces where we canwork that out.
So restorative practice mightbe that space.
And that's yet greatercommunity safety, strength in
(35:05):
relationships.
You get more agile communitiesand we have all the numbers to
show this and you get peoplerecovering from trauma.
You get people recovering froma lot of pain.
So in that example I just gavewith the robbery and the bar,
when we interviewed the youngguy who'd been held up working
in the bar afterwards we saidwhat's the main effect that you
had from that circle?
(35:26):
And he said the monster's gone.
So I didn't believe that thatwas a person anymore.
He was just like he was thefigure I saw in my nightmares
and I was terrified of him everyday, even if I didn't see him.
So in the action agreement theymade for that circle, he
actually said to the guy I wantyou to come back to the bar
(35:47):
Three times in the next coupleof months.
I don't want you to do anything, I'm not gonna tell anyone who
you are, just want you to comein, order a drink and leave,
because I need like a reminderthat when I see your face, that
doesn't automatically meandanger.
So we know that it reduceslevels of traumatic stress.
So when someone has beenthrough a really upsetting
(36:08):
experience, they get that traumain their body, that kind of
jumpiness that relax even whennothing's happening.
So it diminishes that level ofstress.
So yeah, we have good numbersthat this is an effective way of
individuals, relationships andcommunities healing from fear
and learning to be stronger.
Because a strong community isnot a community without conflict
(36:29):
.
It's a community thatunderstands the position of
conflict, the contribution thatit makes, and understands how to
channel that energy intosomething positive.
Like Gandhi said, it's likeelectricity it can electrocute
you or it can give you light.
So the difference is how youchannel it.
Erin Thompson (36:54):
We have a few minutes left.
Are there a message that youwould share with folks who are
intrigued by what they'rehearing today, or find out more
about things restorative I'mcurious about, like how to
proliferate around the worldrestorative practices in a way
that's full and in keeping kindof with the true intent,
(37:15):
considering there's not acentralized certification body
and such.
So I guess, kind of those twothings.
What are your thoughts as theprospects for restorative
practices proliferatingmeaningfully around the world
and any other kind of closingthoughts that you would share
with us?
Dominic Barter (37:31):
I think the first thing is to trust your own
creativity and trust the carethat you have for the people in
your family, your friends, thepeople you hang out with, people
you work with.
People care deeply about theirown communities and this is one
of the ways in which we showthat care is we understand when
someone's upset that we can'tjust dismiss that Some of it is.
(37:54):
You know they're raising theirvoice, they're speaking more
loudly because it's moreimportant that they're heard and
because there's distance.
They're experiencing thatpeople are far away from them.
So they're shouting to kind ofbridge that distance and move
closer, move towards conflictand then we're gonna have safer
relationships.
Some idea we have that conflictis dangerous so we back away
(38:16):
from it and actually what itneeds is his proximity.
So I think that's one thingRecognize that the absence of
dialogue is fatal.
We can't live together if wedon't listen to each other and
if we're not speaking the truthto each other.
So you know, first of all youlose understanding between each
(38:37):
other, then you lose therelationship, then lives start
getting lost.
So you can interrupt that cycleat any moment and move in the
opposite direction and thensearch out people who have that
wisdom.
Some of the people who have thatwisdom use terms like
restorative justice.
So go after them, like you know, knock on the door here at the
Institute and ask what'shappening.
(38:57):
How can I get some of this?
I heard it's good, I want some.
You know my school doesn't haveit.
I want it.
Ask, talk to teachers, talk toelders, talk to your parents,
talk to friends and colleagues.
But a lot of people who havethis wisdom don't use their name
restorative justice.
They've just always been thereand they're always looking out
(39:18):
and so they learn.
So in smaller communities, youknow, the old people used to sit
outside in the afternoon, youknow, drag up a chair and just
sit on the stoop or sit on thestreet and just watch.
And those are the people youcould go to when you were lost,
when you were confused, whenthere was pain and they knew
stuff.
And now it's harder.
We can't just walk down thestreet and find those people
(39:40):
every day.
Some of us still can.
That's great, but most of uscan't anymore.
But looking for those peopleand listening to them and
learning from them can be really, really valuable.
And then the internet is thisincredible source of wisdom, so
you can see people doing thisstuff all over the world.
You can see what we do inBrazil, you know.
You can just search for it andpeople can write to me if they
(40:00):
want to and find out what I'mdoing.
I'm always happy to hear frompeople who are curious about
what's happening.
Erin Thompson (40:08):
How would they do that?
Dominic Barter (40:09):
How would they connect to you?
You can search for me it's alittle strange to say in English
because my handles are all inPortuguese but contato
C-O-N-T-A-T-O, then DominicD-O-M-I-N-I-C.
That's my Instagram and that'salso my email address,
contatodominiquecom, so you cansend me a message there.
(40:33):
I'm always happy to talk topeople.
Erin Thompson (40:37):
This has been good.
Thank you for your time today,Dominic.
Appreciate your wisdom and yoursteady efforts.
Thank you.
Katie Thomas (40:44):
Yeah, thank you so much for being here.
Michael Jones (40:46):
It's been a pleasure to have you here in
Rochester.
Dominic Barter (40:48):
Yeah, thanks so much for all that you're doing
locally.
It's a really powerful exampleand it's amazing to be able to
come and visit and learn fromyou and share a little bit of
what we're doing.
Erin Thompson (40:58):
This has been Perspectives on Peace,
transforming tomorrow with ourguest Dominic Bader.
Take care, folks.
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