April 14, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of Pharma Sessions, host Jonathan Kaskey discusses career transitions into the pharmaceutical industry, specifically focusing on roles like Medical Science Liaisons (MSLs). The guest, Emet Anceaume is the Director of Field Medical Affairs at Immunovant.
Emet is a pharmacist by training. She shares her insights on the importance of transferable skills, the challenges and strategies for breaking into pharma, and the distinction between working for big pharma and small biotech companies. Emett shares personal experiences and highlights the significance of persistence, adaptability, and long-term planning for a successful career in the pharmaceutical sector.
00:00 Understanding Job Requirements and Transferable Skills
01:05 Introduction to Pharma Sessions Podcast
02:16 Breaking into Pharma: A Career Path Discussion
04:32 Challenges for Recent Grads in Pharma
06:55 Navigating Career Transitions in Pharma
12:58 Persistence and Planning in Career Development
15:53 Non-Traditional Paths to Pharma Careers
20:36 Big Pharma vs. Small Pharma: What to Expect
24:23 Evaluating Job Requirements and Work-Life Balance
27:00 Exciting Opportunities in Pharma for New Graduates
Pharma Sessions is hosted by Jonathan Kaskey
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Emet Anceaume (00:00):
It's important to look at the job requirements.
(00:02):
And then think about yourcurrent position.
What are you doing?
That could be transferable tothe, that role, for instance,
communication is in an MSO role.
Huge.
And as a pharmacist, you have tohave great communication skills
to be able to communicate verycomplex scientific medical
(00:23):
information to someone that may.
Only have an eighth gradeeducation.
So you have to be able tosynthesize, and I think a lot of
folks get caught up with the jobdescription and technicality and
don't really start to thinkabout what skills they're using
now that could be transferredinto that particular role.
Jonathan Kaskey (00:48):
That is a really interesting mindset where
it's, I'm qualified for thisrole because I can do this role
rather than because I have donethis role.
And if you're thinking about itthat way, it a lot more things
open up to
Emet Anceaume (01:01):
Absolutely.
Hello, hello and welcome toPharma Sessions, the podcast
where me affairs comes to learnfrom each other.
I'm your host, Jonathan Caskey.
Jonathan Kaskey (01:23):
I always like to start just a little bit like,
a get to know you type stuff.
And I think that one good way todo that is to talk about, our
breakfast.
It's 11 o'clock now.
What have you had to eat so fartoday?
Emet Anceaume (01:33):
I had some bacon and eggs.
Those eggs, I know they'rescarcity right now, but I
managed to still have a littlesupply left.
Jonathan Kaskey (01:43):
I like that.
So you would go a full onbreakfast, is that your
traditional weekday thing or isthis a special occasion or what
is
Emet Anceaume (01:50):
I try to have a heavy breakfast because my days
are pretty hectic, so once I, Ihave a substantial breakfast.
I'm, it really, I'm not reallyhungry throughout the day, so it
helps.
Jonathan Kaskey (02:04):
All right.
Because you're about to be outthere today and every day full
on Ms.
L around traveling and who knowswhere you'll be able to get your
next next meal.
I like it.
I like it.
Okay, cool.
So the concept that we came upwith for this episode it's maybe
a little bit different perhaps abit more career oriented and
maybe.
F helpful for people that arelooking to perhaps break into
(02:27):
pharma.
But the idea is how doessomebody, let's say you're a
pharm d actually break intopharma and why would they want
to, so maybe to get into that,if you could just quickly share
what is your background and whatwas your career path bringing
you to your current
Emet Anceaume (02:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I am a pharmacist by trade.
I trained mostly in communityand clinical pharmacy.
I was always interested in.
In the pharmaceutical industryhad one rotation during my
pharmacy career that really gaveme the really nice exposure to
(03:04):
all the possibilities and allthe different options for
pharmacists within thepharmaceutical industry.
So after that rotation, itreally got me thinking about
where I saw myself for the next20 or 30 years.
And I think that.
The pharmaceutical industry tothis day still and was the right
(03:24):
choice for me.
Jonathan Kaskey (03:26):
Yeah.
So you were exposed basically tothe opportunities during your
education.
Is this something that everybodythat was in your program that
received access to, or is thissomething that you had to search
out and find?
Emet Anceaume (03:40):
Yeah, so unfortunately it's a very
non-traditional path.
I would say that many pharmacyschools don't even have the
partnership set up with thepharmaceutical industries.
But my school did, and it was anapplication process where you
had to apply.
Give your rationale why youwanted to do a rotation there.
(04:03):
And after, I guess theapplication process, they the
school decided who they decidedto support.
However, not all students wereable to do this participate in
this endeavor because it was,you had to self-fund yourself,
meaning you had to.
(04:23):
Make sure you secure, youraccommodations because it wasn't
covered through the regulartuition.
Jonathan Kaskey (04:30):
Oh, interesting.
Alright, so let's say somebodydoes, however they do get
exposure to this and decide it'ssomething they want to pursue
working in the pharma industry,that is what challenges are they
up against?
Why is it hard for recent grads?
Let's say they want to become anMSL to do that right out of
school.
Emet Anceaume (04:48):
Yeah, I think the ex, the work experience is one,
right?
This is, I wouldn't saynecessarily, it's not a role for
a recent grad, right?
If they have had, for instance,other work experience, however,
it does require certain.
Skills that one would acquirewhile working in the industry
(05:11):
itself.
So I think that there are otherroles that can build up the
skillset and the I think it'smore of an acclimation process
to the industry in itself.
That is the hardest part forsomeone to just jump into an MSO
role, outta school.
Jonathan Kaskey (05:30):
Because they might, while they might have
these skills, it's, they mightneed to figure out how to map
those to what the position thatthey're going for is.
It might not be a very, atotally clear one-to-one.
And in theory, MSLs, I'mactually on the MSL thread on
Reddit, and every now and thensomebody posts, Hey, is X, Y, Z
company a good company to workfor?
Or, here's the range that I'mlooking at.
(05:53):
And it's a pretty wellcompensated position, right?
So you'd imagine it's.
It's competitive.
You'd imagine when somebody'shiring for that they, they might
have recent grads, but they alsomight have some people with 5,
10, 15 years of directexperience, being in MSL in that
therapeutic area.
So is that, when you say workexperience, is that sort of what
you're alluding to, that you'retrying to get your resume to
(06:15):
bubble up to the top when you'reup against some people who might
have been actually doing a verysimilar job for a while?
Emet Anceaume (06:21):
Yes, absolutely.
Especially when you think abouta specific therapeutic area,
right?
There's, you can, you're goingagainst individuals that have,
five, 10 years of experiencedoing the role and in that
specific therapeutic area.
So it's not only thetherapeutic.
Expertise is also the day-to-dayrole.
(06:44):
Expectations that, from companyto companies, they're pretty
transferable.
But for somebody who has neverstepped foot in the role, it can
be challenging.
Jonathan Kaskey (06:54):
Yeah.
And so you were up against this,let's just talk about your
journey.
How did you manage that and whatkind of became your entry point
to pharma?
Emet Anceaume (07:04):
Yeah, so I actually did not start as an
MSL.
My first role within industrywas as a project manager
managing clinical trials.
However, I was able to, I.
Make that bridge, right?
Transfer.
There are a lot of transferableskills.
Being a pharmacist that goinginto a project management role,
(07:26):
it's very easy, right?
You have to have goodcommunication skills, right?
You have to have goodorganization skills, risk
management, time management.
So once you just think about howyou could transfer the skills
that you already hone.
It's very easy to make the casewhile you are the right
candidate for this role.
Jonathan Kaskey (07:50):
So you were, and what the skills you're
talking about and the role youwere in, what role were you in
right before you joined a pharmacompany?
Emet Anceaume (07:57):
So I would say medication therapy management
pharmacist, I.
So that role consists ofengaging with patients, making
sure that their medications areadequate, that there's no
duplication of therapy, there'sno polypharmacy, and make
interventions on their behalfwith their physicians.
Jonathan Kaskey (08:19):
So you're, and can you just.
Because I don't know thatposition su super well.
Can you help?
I think what's important thatyou shared was this idea of
maybe taking a step back andsaying, okay, these are the
requirements for the job.
From a skills perspective.
How do I look at what I'malready doing on a day to day
and translate.
That into something that makessense for a hiring manager and
(08:43):
honestly puts you in a job thatyou think you're going to be
good at, right?
Because that's the ultimategoal, is to get a foot in the
door, have it be successful, andthen that opens up all sorts of.
Options.
So when you were, I wanna getlike really specific, right?
'cause somebody might be in thisposition right now, you're
taking the job description andputting it on the screen and
(09:03):
mapping out what you're doing tothat on how are you actually
doing this?
Emet Anceaume (09:07):
Yeah.
Actually, it's funny youmentioned that because that's
actually what I did, right?
I pull up the job descriptionand I started sorting out
different.
Scenarios or looking at mycurrent role at the time and
seeing how I could make the casefor that.
How could I be a great asset forthat company?
How does my skills transferover?
(09:27):
I think it's important you haveto really make the case.
But for someone.
Like myself, who was apharmacist who had I would say a
great knowledge base of thescience, the technical piece was
the one that they were lookingfor, that I was able to bridge
with my skills that I hadgathered in my other previous
(09:49):
jobs as a community and as a MTMpharmacist.
Jonathan Kaskey (09:54):
Yeah.
I love that.
I think that is a, it's amindset shift, right?
That you're talking about.
And I think it's really cool tosay, you know what?
I know I can do this.
And I, and really what it is Ihave to.
I have to create the businesscase for why hiring Emmett is a
good idea.
(10:15):
But it's not really that much ofa stretch when you put it out
like that.
What you're, what you weredescribing in your role working
with patients seems incrediblydetail oriented.
Seems incredibly scientificright and complex.
And so translating that over toanother role clearly is possible
because, you had thatconversation.
So then what did you find onceyou were in there?
(10:35):
'cause that was not your endgoal.
Your end goal was not to be inthe project manager space.
Your end goal was to become anMSL.
So describe what happened next.
Emet Anceaume (10:42):
Yeah.
So you know though, I would saythat the most challenging part
of the role was just gettingaccustomed to all the far more
jargon, right?
Because this is something, notsomething that you could pick up
a book and study, right?
It is actually on the joblearning.
I enjoyed the role in terms of,when I got to participate, I got
(11:05):
the opportunity to participatein the trial designs, right?
When they were building thoseprojects.
But it was very operational,right?
Which for me, I wanted to getcloser and closer to the
science.
However, being an MSL rightrequires you to have knowledge.
Of operations.
(11:27):
'cause you need to understandwhen you're talking to a
physician, timelines they wannaparticipate in a clinical trial,
right?
You need to understand what arethe requirements for that
physician to partake in aclinical trial, right?
Because not all physicians can'tparticipate, right?
They have to have the rightinfrastructure, the right
regulatory documents.
(11:47):
And not all of'em have that.
It's important for you to knowthe operational piece as well as
understand the science of themolecule you're supporting.
Jonathan Kaskey (12:01):
And okay.
And then how long after youstarted working at, can you
share, which was this bigpharma, small pharma where, what
was
Emet Anceaume (12:10):
It was big pharma.
Jonathan Kaskey (12:12):
So how long after working there did you find
yourself, with the opportunityto move into the job that you
were really going for?
Emet Anceaume (12:19):
After a year.
After a year, yeah.
I think the great thing aboutthis role was that it gave you a
lot of visibility.
I.
Two different functions.
So I got to work really closelywith the medical affairs
department, especially as MSLswere contacting me about, their
(12:40):
their PIs what kind of documentsthey needed, where they were.
So I build that network and thatrapport within the company that
I think once people got to knowme.
When a role came up I was, itwas easier for me to apply and
go through the interviewprocess.
Jonathan Kaskey (12:57):
All right.
So the clear takeaway here ishave a long-term vision right,
of where you want to go.
And it seems like, I'm justgonna guess that you're pretty
good at mapping things out,stepwise in your career and
otherwise in your life.
But it sounds like that's servedyou really well here.
Emet Anceaume (13:12):
Yes.
I think you always have.
There's an element of planning,but there's also an element of
persistence.
I always tell, when people reachout to me and sometimes they're
discouraged either because theyreach out to someone on LinkedIn
and they did not get a responseback, or they apply to multiple
roles and they were alldeclined.
(13:34):
And I tell'em the story abouthow I applied.
I think it was 50 or 62applications.
Before I ever got a call back.
So there is an element ofpersistence, but again, it all
falls back to where do you seeyourself?
What do you wanna do?
How bad do you want
Jonathan Kaskey (13:53):
a.
Yeah.
And I feel not to get all likelife coachy, but so many things
in life the benefit of a yes isway more important than how
harmful a no is.
'cause a no doesn't leave you inany different situation.
I, so I was in business schooland we had a class and it was,
we were reviewing somebody'sbusiness plan as if we were
(14:16):
like, supposedly a vc.
Would you fund this or would younot fund it?
The whole class was just likeripping the sky to shreds.
We didn't, and what we didn'tknow is that the person who had
written the business plan, whowas the CO of the actual
company, was sitting in the backrow listening to this.
So after we do our whole thingabout why it's a terrible idea
to invest in this, he comes downand he is like.
Everything that you all said iswhat we heard from 19 of the 20
(14:37):
VCs that we went to.
One person believed in us andfunded it, and now we have a
company.
And so it wasn't so much aboutbeing right and wrong, it's more
if you can deal with rejection,criticism, whatever, all you
really need is one.
And that makes, it's, we're not,it's not a popular vote, right?
It's just you just need oneperson to say yes.
Emet Anceaume (14:58):
And right how you channel also rejection.
I look at rejection asredirection, right?
I don't take it personal and Ioften find it.
As an opportunity to see whatareas I can improve and
something I would recommend.
Individuals, like when theyinterview and maybe they get
rejected, is always ask forfeedback.
(15:19):
Is, was there something that Icould have done better?
What are you looking for?
And believe it or not, more,more often than not, people will
provide genuine feedback.
Jonathan Kaskey (15:30):
Yeah, that's just it, right?
It's not, it isn't personal.
People are making the decisionsand sometimes the feedback
might, you might take it andsay, okay, that actually isn't
the right role for me, forexample, or more.
It's about I actually believethat I do have this thing that
they left thinking I didn'thave.
So how can I present myselfdifferently?
So it's right.
It's like you don't win or loseyou.
(15:51):
You win or learn.
Okay.
But you had another examplethough of somebody else that you
helped take a non-traditionalpath to this, and I believe you
had helped them get in throughthe sales, the commercial side
of the organization.
Can you share a bit about thatand how that all came about?
Emet Anceaume (16:08):
Yeah, so it was actually a classmate from my
pharmacy school who wasinterested also in into breaking
into pharma.
But again, didn't know if, hedidn't wanna relocate to the
headquarters where most of theroles are usually offered.
And he wanted sort to stay inthe, in his territory, in his
area.
(16:29):
And sometimes it's difficult,right?
Because a lot of companies willrequire you to relocate.
Even now with after Covid, Ithink there's some flexibility,
but this is pre covid, right?
They the guidance was for folksto relocate to the headquarters.
So I gave them the idea aboutjoining.
(16:50):
The Salesforce, because Ithought, and by talking and
networking within the companythat I used to work for, he
would actually be a great assetbecause while he didn't have the
business piece, he had a wealthof knowledge in the therapeutic
space, right?
He could talk all day longabout, the mechanism of action,
(17:12):
right?
The drug.
I said, why don't you apply tobecome, a, to become part of the
Salesforce?
And at first he was prettyhesitant because again, you say
that to somebody who their wholetraining, their whole life has
been around the science andaround just, basically a
(17:32):
scientific background is allthey know that he was just.
Very hesitant about taking thatleap and failing because he did
not have a sales or anyknowledge about the commercial
side of any business.
He did take my advice and he didapply and he was amazed how, the
skills that he was using as acommunity pharmacist were very
(17:57):
transferable to the sales role.
I.
Because when you go in to speakwith a physician, you have to be
able to speak on, on, on label,on behalf of the product that
you're supporting.
So it's not as, you would thinkyou're trying to, make a sale
right there and then.
There's a whole r to it.
That he just wasn't aware untilhe went through the formal
(18:20):
training.
And that's another thing, right?
Maybe people are a bitintimidated because they have
never had a sales role, but I.
Most pharmaceutical companiesthat I have worked for, and I'll
say that most of them ex, theyspend a lot of time training
their field Salesforce to besuccessful.
There are a lot of regulations.
(18:40):
So the training is there.
The resource are there to besuccessful.
Jonathan Kaskey (18:46):
Yeah, and I think so, so my background is in
sales, not in pharma sales, butsales in general.
And what I've seen both formyself and throughout my career
is that.
There's not one path to beinggood at it.
What a lot of it comes down tois knowing yourself and leaning
into your own strengths, and itsounds like for this person,
(19:08):
their strengths was on thetechnical, the science end of
it, and I can imagine.
Doctors, for example, beingreally receptive to that, right?
Because it's not about,schmoozing and glad handing and,
chuckling it up, right?
Because they don't really havetime for that.
It's, you're having thatpeer-to-peer conversation and
(19:29):
the first step to anybodylistening to you is to, show
them that you're somebody that'sworth listening to.
And so probably that person's.
was actually really helpful forthem in a way they weren't maybe
necessarily expecting.
Emet Anceaume (19:41):
And also in terms of comp of his competition, the
pool of competition, he stoodout, right?
Because a lot of the individualsapplying for those roles had
more business backgrounds, andhe was able to differentiate
himself by having a a pharm dbackground.
Jonathan Kaskey (19:59):
And so did this person stay in a sales role or
did they end up transferringover to the MSL job that they
were initially looking for?
Emet Anceaume (20:06):
They ended up transferring.
He's an MSL today.
Jonathan Kaskey (20:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's really cool,right?
Two very different entry points,project manager and sales.
But I think the commonality foranyone, thinking about their own
journey is this idea ofsometimes you have to go A to B
before you get to C, right?
And taking in non-traditionalpath can actually, you can learn
a lot.
You meet, you get in the doorand it opens up all sorts of
(20:33):
opportunities.
Emet Anceaume (20:34):
Absolutely.
Jonathan Kaskey (20:37):
So in our pre-call you had talked about
working for both big company,big pharma and small pharma.
So I kind of wanna shift theconversation here for our last
segment and just, help somebodywho might be in graduate school,
for example, understand whatthey're actually looking at and
(20:59):
what are some of the things thatmight not be immediately
apparent about.
L rules that would make one agood fit for somebody and one a
good fit for somebody else.
It's not like one is good andone is bad.
It's all dependent on whatpeople are looking for.
So can you just share some ofyour experience on big pharma
versus small to start out
Emet Anceaume (21:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, when we think about bigpharma, right?
Somebody taking a role withinthat company, they.
They go in and they have a lotof support, right?
That's the first role that Itook.
It was within a bigpharmaceutical company, and they
had all, I would say a prettygood, robust array of resources.
(21:43):
They had a, somebody that wasable to make the slide decks for
you.
Someone that was able tobasically provide all your
necessary tools at yourfingertips.
When we look at a startup, asmaller biotech, sometimes you
don't have the luxury of havingsomeone in every department that
(22:04):
can facilitate all differentareas of your work, right?
So you tend to have to getcomfortable wearing multiple
hats.
And sometimes you might have todo.
The role of three individualsand maybe a big, a bigger
company, that you never had toworry about that because there
was a designated person for thatparticular area.
(22:28):
So I think that depending if youknow your personality, depending
where you are in life, right?
You have to also think abouttravel, especially when you're
thinking about an MSO rolebecause you tend to travel a
lot.
And that's not to say within bigpharma you won't.
It also, depends where they are,what stage and what territory
(22:49):
you cover.
But I'll say, you tend to travela lot more, I would say in a
smaller biotech for sure.
Jonathan Kaskey (22:56):
Y Yeah, so it's funny.
So a lot of, I have a lot ofbackground running ad boards for
med affairs and the bigcompanies is it would seem
significantly easier for thepeople working there because
they have a contracting group,they have a content part, agency
partner, they have this, theyhave that, right?
(23:16):
And then the small company, it's80% of your time you're just
doing your various med affairsstuff and then 20% of your time,
all of a sudden you're an eventscoordinator and by the way,
you're also a contractingperson.
And then you have to figure outhow to pay and.
Track honoraria and yeah, butkeep doing your day job.
So for some people, and probablyone of'em,'cause I've always
(23:36):
gravitated towards startups,like that's actually fun and
exciting.
And other people are like, hellno.
I don't want to do that.
I want things to be done in acertain way and I wanna focus on
not what I'm my corecompetencies.
So it is something.
It's a generalization, but thatone at least is probably pretty.
Universally fair, which is bigcompanies tend to have more
(23:59):
resources and morecompartmentalization than the
small companies.
But one of the things that I didwant to talk on just more about
the day to day,'cause this was amisconception I had in our
pre-call, I was picturing you,getting on the road getting in
your car and just driving allover the place.
Doctor, doctor to doctor, butyou said for you anyway.
Your territory is so big, that'sactually not the case.
(24:20):
You're more in, in airportstravel.
So how do you, if you're on theoutside looking in, how do you
evaluate a position and start tounderstand what the impact to
your, your work life, yourfamily life, your work life
balance, all of that, and justyour day to day, is this gonna
be something I like doing?
How do you understand what thoserequirements are going to
Emet Anceaume (24:39):
Yeah, I think it's very important to have an
honest conversation with thehiring manager about territory
coverage and expectations,right?
So some companies track theirmetrics through.
Interactions in-personinteractions.
Some companies, count virtualinteractions as as well.
(25:00):
Some do a hybrid and I thinkmost companies today do hybrid
after covid, of course.
But I think it's important when,one of the questions that I
would.
Recommend individuals to askduring an interview is to really
get an idea of how many statesthey'll be covering, right?
And what is the expectation oftravel?
(25:22):
Because for individuals thathave families they, we're
talking about work, but we haveto remember we are multifaceted
individuals, right?
We have families, we havehobbies, et cetera.
I think you need to be honestwith yourself.
And while the role might be.
Appealing and, intriguing toyou.
I think you have to have anhonest conversation with
(25:43):
yourself and say, do I seemyself giving this up to be able
to fulfill my day-to-day dutiesin this role?
I.
Jonathan Kaskey (25:53):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
'cause that is ultimately whatit comes down to is it can look.
Again, not everything is rightfor every person.
And what is appealing to youmight not be appealing to me.
But digging, really digging downinto the details.
Travel in particular.
Even from my experience, my, thetravel requirements that I've
been going through have changedsignificantly since c.
(26:17):
I look back to how much I usedto travel.
I'm like, oh my God, I can'tbelieve I did that.
This is so much calmer.
Now, but I remember talking tosomebody who was, you're talking
about how many states are youmanaging?
In other parts of the world,it's like, how many countries
are you managing, right?
Because you might be even moreunder resourced.
So those conversations probablybecome even more important.
(26:37):
I would assume.
Okay.
Let me ask you one, one finalquestion before we wrap up.
And thank you for for all this.
I've been enjoying this.
If you're thinking about, ifyou're putting yourself back to
before you got in and you'rethinking about actually let me
rephrase that.
I'm just gonna cut that lastpart.
So lemme ask you one finalquestion before we end.
(27:00):
Thinking about the pharmaindustry, about the MSL role,
what excites you most about thepotential for younger people or
people fresh outta school?
Thinking of beginning a careerin pharma?
Emet Anceaume (27:14):
Yeah.
I think what excites me the mostis for them to have the
opportunity I.
To be in the front linesfrontline, excuse me, of the
cutting edge research and howtheir efforts and their remedy
of work ultimately influencedpatients' lives.
How, you know that meeting, thatbeing able to communicate the,
(27:38):
the phase three trial results ofa particular drug.
Makes a difference for that drugapproval and ultimately changes
that patient's life.
To me, that's what keeps megoing.
That's what makes me go throughlike the travel days, right?
The hectic schedules, thesleepless nights.
(28:00):
At the end of the day, that'swhat fulfills me.
That's what gives me energy andkeeps me going and wanting to
keep helping other people.
Keep mentoring individuals thatwant to follow my footsteps.
Jonathan Kaskey (28:14):
I love that.
Alright, let's leave it there,Emmett.
Thank you so much.
Emet Anceaume (28:18):
you.
It's important to look at the job requirements.
(00:02):
And then think about yourcurrent position.
What are you doing?
That could be transferable tothe, that role, for instance,
communication is in an MSO role.
Huge.
And as a pharmacist, you have tohave great communication skills
to be able to communicate verycomplex scientific medical
(00:23):
information to someone that may.
Only have an eighth gradeeducation.
So you have to be able tosynthesize, and I think a lot of
folks get caught up with the jobdescription and technicality and
don't really start to thinkabout what skills they're using
now that could be transferredinto that particular role.
Jonathan Kaskey (00:48):
That is a really interesting mindset where
it's, I'm qualified for thisrole because I can do this role
rather than because I have donethis role.
And if you're thinking about itthat way, it a lot more things
open up to
Emet Anceaume (01:01):
Absolutely.
Hello, hello and welcome toPharma Sessions, the podcast
where me affairs comes to learnfrom each other.
I'm your host, Jonathan Caskey.
Jonathan Kaskey (01:23):
I always like to start just a little bit like,
a get to know you type stuff.
And I think that one good way todo that is to talk about, our
breakfast.
It's 11 o'clock now.
What have you had to eat so fartoday?
Emet Anceaume (01:33):
I had some bacon and eggs.
Those eggs, I know they'rescarcity right now, but I
managed to still have a littlesupply left.
Jonathan Kaskey (01:43):
I like that.
So you would go a full onbreakfast, is that your
traditional weekday thing or isthis a special occasion or what
is
Emet Anceaume (01:50):
I try to have a heavy breakfast because my days
are pretty hectic, so once I, Ihave a substantial breakfast.
I'm, it really, I'm not reallyhungry throughout the day, so it
helps.
Jonathan Kaskey (02:04):
All right.
Because you're about to be outthere today and every day full
on Ms.
L around traveling and who knowswhere you'll be able to get your
next next meal.
I like it.
I like it.
Okay, cool.
So the concept that we came upwith for this episode it's maybe
a little bit different perhaps abit more career oriented and
maybe.
F helpful for people that arelooking to perhaps break into
(02:27):
pharma.
But the idea is how doessomebody, let's say you're a
pharm d actually break intopharma and why would they want
to, so maybe to get into that,if you could just quickly share
what is your background and whatwas your career path bringing
you to your current
Emet Anceaume (02:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I am a pharmacist by trade.
I trained mostly in communityand clinical pharmacy.
I was always interested in.
In the pharmaceutical industryhad one rotation during my
pharmacy career that really gaveme the really nice exposure to
(03:04):
all the possibilities and allthe different options for
pharmacists within thepharmaceutical industry.
So after that rotation, itreally got me thinking about
where I saw myself for the next20 or 30 years.
And I think that.
The pharmaceutical industry tothis day still and was the right
(03:24):
choice for me.
Jonathan Kaskey (03:26):
Yeah.
So you were exposed basically tothe opportunities during your
education.
Is this something that everybodythat was in your program that
received access to, or is thissomething that you had to search
out and find?
Emet Anceaume (03:40):
Yeah, so unfortunately it's a very
non-traditional path.
I would say that many pharmacyschools don't even have the
partnership set up with thepharmaceutical industries.
But my school did, and it was anapplication process where you
had to apply.
Give your rationale why youwanted to do a rotation there.
(04:03):
And after, I guess theapplication process, they the
school decided who they decidedto support.
However, not all students wereable to do this participate in
this endeavor because it was,you had to self-fund yourself,
meaning you had to.
(04:23):
Make sure you secure, youraccommodations because it wasn't
covered through the regulartuition.
Jonathan Kaskey (04:30):
Oh, interesting.
Alright, so let's say somebodydoes, however they do get
exposure to this and decide it'ssomething they want to pursue
working in the pharma industry,that is what challenges are they
up against?
Why is it hard for recent grads?
Let's say they want to become anMSL to do that right out of
school.
Emet Anceaume (04:48):
Yeah, I think the ex, the work experience is one,
right?
This is, I wouldn't saynecessarily, it's not a role for
a recent grad, right?
If they have had, for instance,other work experience, however,
it does require certain.
Skills that one would acquirewhile working in the industry
(05:11):
itself.
So I think that there are otherroles that can build up the
skillset and the I think it'smore of an acclimation process
to the industry in itself.
That is the hardest part forsomeone to just jump into an MSO
role, outta school.
Jonathan Kaskey (05:30):
Because they might, while they might have
these skills, it's, they mightneed to figure out how to map
those to what the position thatthey're going for is.
It might not be a very, atotally clear one-to-one.
And in theory, MSLs, I'mactually on the MSL thread on
Reddit, and every now and thensomebody posts, Hey, is X, Y, Z
company a good company to workfor?
Or, here's the range that I'mlooking at.
(05:53):
And it's a pretty wellcompensated position, right?
So you'd imagine it's.
It's competitive.
You'd imagine when somebody'shiring for that they, they might
have recent grads, but they alsomight have some people with 5,
10, 15 years of directexperience, being in MSL in that
therapeutic area.
So is that, when you say workexperience, is that sort of what
you're alluding to, that you'retrying to get your resume to
(06:15):
bubble up to the top when you'reup against some people who might
have been actually doing a verysimilar job for a while?
Emet Anceaume (06:21):
Yes, absolutely.
Especially when you think abouta specific therapeutic area,
right?
There's, you can, you're goingagainst individuals that have,
five, 10 years of experiencedoing the role and in that
specific therapeutic area.
So it's not only thetherapeutic.
Expertise is also the day-to-dayrole.
(06:44):
Expectations that, from companyto companies, they're pretty
transferable.
But for somebody who has neverstepped foot in the role, it can
be challenging.
Jonathan Kaskey (06:54):
Yeah.
And so you were up against this,let's just talk about your
journey.
How did you manage that and whatkind of became your entry point
to pharma?
Emet Anceaume (07:04):
Yeah, so I actually did not start as an
MSL.
My first role within industrywas as a project manager
managing clinical trials.
However, I was able to, I.
Make that bridge, right?
Transfer.
There are a lot of transferableskills.
Being a pharmacist that goinginto a project management role,
(07:26):
it's very easy, right?
You have to have goodcommunication skills, right?
You have to have goodorganization skills, risk
management, time management.
So once you just think about howyou could transfer the skills
that you already hone.
It's very easy to make the casewhile you are the right
candidate for this role.
Jonathan Kaskey (07:50):
So you were, and what the skills you're
talking about and the role youwere in, what role were you in
right before you joined a pharmacompany?
Emet Anceaume (07:57):
So I would say medication therapy management
pharmacist, I.
So that role consists ofengaging with patients, making
sure that their medications areadequate, that there's no
duplication of therapy, there'sno polypharmacy, and make
interventions on their behalfwith their physicians.
Jonathan Kaskey (08:19):
So you're, and can you just.
Because I don't know thatposition su super well.
Can you help?
I think what's important thatyou shared was this idea of
maybe taking a step back andsaying, okay, these are the
requirements for the job.
From a skills perspective.
How do I look at what I'malready doing on a day to day
and translate.
That into something that makessense for a hiring manager and
(08:43):
honestly puts you in a job thatyou think you're going to be
good at, right?
Because that's the ultimategoal, is to get a foot in the
door, have it be successful, andthen that opens up all sorts of.
Options.
So when you were, I wanna getlike really specific, right?
'cause somebody might be in thisposition right now, you're
taking the job description andputting it on the screen and
(09:03):
mapping out what you're doing tothat on how are you actually
doing this?
Emet Anceaume (09:07):
Yeah.
Actually, it's funny youmentioned that because that's
actually what I did, right?
I pull up the job descriptionand I started sorting out
different.
Scenarios or looking at mycurrent role at the time and
seeing how I could make the casefor that.
How could I be a great asset forthat company?
How does my skills transferover?
(09:27):
I think it's important you haveto really make the case.
But for someone.
Like myself, who was apharmacist who had I would say a
great knowledge base of thescience, the technical piece was
the one that they were lookingfor, that I was able to bridge
with my skills that I hadgathered in my other previous
(09:49):
jobs as a community and as a MTMpharmacist.
Jonathan Kaskey (09:54):
Yeah.
I love that.
I think that is a, it's amindset shift, right?
That you're talking about.
And I think it's really cool tosay, you know what?
I know I can do this.
And I, and really what it is Ihave to.
I have to create the businesscase for why hiring Emmett is a
good idea.
(10:15):
But it's not really that much ofa stretch when you put it out
like that.
What you're, what you weredescribing in your role working
with patients seems incrediblydetail oriented.
Seems incredibly scientificright and complex.
And so translating that over toanother role clearly is possible
because, you had thatconversation.
So then what did you find onceyou were in there?
(10:35):
'cause that was not your endgoal.
Your end goal was not to be inthe project manager space.
Your end goal was to become anMSL.
So describe what happened next.
Emet Anceaume (10:42):
Yeah.
So you know though, I would saythat the most challenging part
of the role was just gettingaccustomed to all the far more
jargon, right?
Because this is something, notsomething that you could pick up
a book and study, right?
It is actually on the joblearning.
I enjoyed the role in terms of,when I got to participate, I got
(11:05):
the opportunity to participatein the trial designs, right?
When they were building thoseprojects.
But it was very operational,right?
Which for me, I wanted to getcloser and closer to the
science.
However, being an MSL rightrequires you to have knowledge.
Of operations.
(11:27):
'cause you need to understandwhen you're talking to a
physician, timelines they wannaparticipate in a clinical trial,
right?
You need to understand what arethe requirements for that
physician to partake in aclinical trial, right?
Because not all physicians can'tparticipate, right?
They have to have the rightinfrastructure, the right
regulatory documents.
(11:47):
And not all of'em have that.
It's important for you to knowthe operational piece as well as
understand the science of themolecule you're supporting.
Jonathan Kaskey (12:01):
And okay.
And then how long after youstarted working at, can you
share, which was this bigpharma, small pharma where, what
was
Emet Anceaume (12:10):
It was big pharma.
Jonathan Kaskey (12:12):
So how long after working there did you find
yourself, with the opportunityto move into the job that you
were really going for?
Emet Anceaume (12:19):
After a year.
After a year, yeah.
I think the great thing aboutthis role was that it gave you a
lot of visibility.
I.
Two different functions.
So I got to work really closelywith the medical affairs
department, especially as MSLswere contacting me about, their
(12:40):
their PIs what kind of documentsthey needed, where they were.
So I build that network and thatrapport within the company that
I think once people got to knowme.
When a role came up I was, itwas easier for me to apply and
go through the interviewprocess.
Jonathan Kaskey (12:57):
All right.
So the clear takeaway here ishave a long-term vision right,
of where you want to go.
And it seems like, I'm justgonna guess that you're pretty
good at mapping things out,stepwise in your career and
otherwise in your life.
But it sounds like that's servedyou really well here.
Emet Anceaume (13:12):
Yes.
I think you always have.
There's an element of planning,but there's also an element of
persistence.
I always tell, when people reachout to me and sometimes they're
discouraged either because theyreach out to someone on LinkedIn
and they did not get a responseback, or they apply to multiple
roles and they were alldeclined.
(13:34):
And I tell'em the story abouthow I applied.
I think it was 50 or 62applications.
Before I ever got a call back.
So there is an element ofpersistence, but again, it all
falls back to where do you seeyourself?
What do you wanna do?
How bad do you want
Jonathan Kaskey (13:53):
a.
Yeah.
And I feel not to get all likelife coachy, but so many things
in life the benefit of a yes isway more important than how
harmful a no is.
'cause a no doesn't leave you inany different situation.
I, so I was in business schooland we had a class and it was,
we were reviewing somebody'sbusiness plan as if we were
(14:16):
like, supposedly a vc.
Would you fund this or would younot fund it?
The whole class was just likeripping the sky to shreds.
We didn't, and what we didn'tknow is that the person who had
written the business plan, whowas the CO of the actual
company, was sitting in the backrow listening to this.
So after we do our whole thingabout why it's a terrible idea
to invest in this, he comes downand he is like.
Everything that you all said iswhat we heard from 19 of the 20
(14:37):
VCs that we went to.
One person believed in us andfunded it, and now we have a
company.
And so it wasn't so much aboutbeing right and wrong, it's more
if you can deal with rejection,criticism, whatever, all you
really need is one.
And that makes, it's, we're not,it's not a popular vote, right?
It's just you just need oneperson to say yes.
Emet Anceaume (14:58):
And right how you channel also rejection.
I look at rejection asredirection, right?
I don't take it personal and Ioften find it.
As an opportunity to see whatareas I can improve and
something I would recommend.
Individuals, like when theyinterview and maybe they get
rejected, is always ask forfeedback.
(15:19):
Is, was there something that Icould have done better?
What are you looking for?
And believe it or not, more,more often than not, people will
provide genuine feedback.
Jonathan Kaskey (15:30):
Yeah, that's just it, right?
It's not, it isn't personal.
People are making the decisionsand sometimes the feedback
might, you might take it andsay, okay, that actually isn't
the right role for me, forexample, or more.
It's about I actually believethat I do have this thing that
they left thinking I didn'thave.
So how can I present myselfdifferently?
So it's right.
It's like you don't win or loseyou.
(15:51):
You win or learn.
Okay.
But you had another examplethough of somebody else that you
helped take a non-traditionalpath to this, and I believe you
had helped them get in throughthe sales, the commercial side
of the organization.
Can you share a bit about thatand how that all came about?
Emet Anceaume (16:08):
Yeah, so it was actually a classmate from my
pharmacy school who wasinterested also in into breaking
into pharma.
But again, didn't know if, hedidn't wanna relocate to the
headquarters where most of theroles are usually offered.
And he wanted sort to stay inthe, in his territory, in his
area.
(16:29):
And sometimes it's difficult,right?
Because a lot of companies willrequire you to relocate.
Even now with after Covid, Ithink there's some flexibility,
but this is pre covid, right?
They the guidance was for folksto relocate to the headquarters.
So I gave them the idea aboutjoining.
(16:50):
The Salesforce, because Ithought, and by talking and
networking within the companythat I used to work for, he
would actually be a great assetbecause while he didn't have the
business piece, he had a wealthof knowledge in the therapeutic
space, right?
He could talk all day longabout, the mechanism of action,
(17:12):
right?
The drug.
I said, why don't you apply tobecome, a, to become part of the
Salesforce?
And at first he was prettyhesitant because again, you say
that to somebody who their wholetraining, their whole life has
been around the science andaround just, basically a
(17:32):
scientific background is allthey know that he was just.
Very hesitant about taking thatleap and failing because he did
not have a sales or anyknowledge about the commercial
side of any business.
He did take my advice and he didapply and he was amazed how, the
skills that he was using as acommunity pharmacist were very
(17:57):
transferable to the sales role.
I.
Because when you go in to speakwith a physician, you have to be
able to speak on, on, on label,on behalf of the product that
you're supporting.
So it's not as, you would thinkyou're trying to, make a sale
right there and then.
There's a whole r to it.
That he just wasn't aware untilhe went through the formal
(18:20):
training.
And that's another thing, right?
Maybe people are a bitintimidated because they have
never had a sales role, but I.
Most pharmaceutical companiesthat I have worked for, and I'll
say that most of them ex, theyspend a lot of time training
their field Salesforce to besuccessful.
There are a lot of regulations.
(18:40):
So the training is there.
The resource are there to besuccessful.
Jonathan Kaskey (18:46):
Yeah, and I think so, so my background is in
sales, not in pharma sales, butsales in general.
And what I've seen both formyself and throughout my career
is that.
There's not one path to beinggood at it.
What a lot of it comes down tois knowing yourself and leaning
into your own strengths, and itsounds like for this person,
(19:08):
their strengths was on thetechnical, the science end of
it, and I can imagine.
Doctors, for example, beingreally receptive to that, right?
Because it's not about,schmoozing and glad handing and,
chuckling it up, right?
Because they don't really havetime for that.
It's, you're having thatpeer-to-peer conversation and
(19:29):
the first step to anybodylistening to you is to, show
them that you're somebody that'sworth listening to.
And so probably that person's.
was actually really helpful forthem in a way they weren't maybe
necessarily expecting.
Emet Anceaume (19:41):
And also in terms of comp of his competition, the
pool of competition, he stoodout, right?
Because a lot of the individualsapplying for those roles had
more business backgrounds, andhe was able to differentiate
himself by having a a pharm dbackground.
Jonathan Kaskey (19:59):
And so did this person stay in a sales role or
did they end up transferringover to the MSL job that they
were initially looking for?
Emet Anceaume (20:06):
They ended up transferring.
He's an MSL today.
Jonathan Kaskey (20:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's really cool,right?
Two very different entry points,project manager and sales.
But I think the commonality foranyone, thinking about their own
journey is this idea ofsometimes you have to go A to B
before you get to C, right?
And taking in non-traditionalpath can actually, you can learn
a lot.
You meet, you get in the doorand it opens up all sorts of
(20:33):
opportunities.
Emet Anceaume (20:34):
Absolutely.
Jonathan Kaskey (20:37):
So in our pre-call you had talked about
working for both big company,big pharma and small pharma.
So I kind of wanna shift theconversation here for our last
segment and just, help somebodywho might be in graduate school,
for example, understand whatthey're actually looking at and
(20:59):
what are some of the things thatmight not be immediately
apparent about.
L rules that would make one agood fit for somebody and one a
good fit for somebody else.
It's not like one is good andone is bad.
It's all dependent on whatpeople are looking for.
So can you just share some ofyour experience on big pharma
versus small to start out
Emet Anceaume (21:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, when we think about bigpharma, right?
Somebody taking a role withinthat company, they.
They go in and they have a lotof support, right?
That's the first role that Itook.
It was within a bigpharmaceutical company, and they
had all, I would say a prettygood, robust array of resources.
(21:43):
They had a, somebody that wasable to make the slide decks for
you.
Someone that was able tobasically provide all your
necessary tools at yourfingertips.
When we look at a startup, asmaller biotech, sometimes you
don't have the luxury of havingsomeone in every department that
(22:04):
can facilitate all differentareas of your work, right?
So you tend to have to getcomfortable wearing multiple
hats.
And sometimes you might have todo.
The role of three individualsand maybe a big, a bigger
company, that you never had toworry about that because there
was a designated person for thatparticular area.
(22:28):
So I think that depending if youknow your personality, depending
where you are in life, right?
You have to also think abouttravel, especially when you're
thinking about an MSO rolebecause you tend to travel a
lot.
And that's not to say within bigpharma you won't.
It also, depends where they are,what stage and what territory
(22:49):
you cover.
But I'll say, you tend to travela lot more, I would say in a
smaller biotech for sure.
Jonathan Kaskey (22:56):
Y Yeah, so it's funny.
So a lot of, I have a lot ofbackground running ad boards for
med affairs and the bigcompanies is it would seem
significantly easier for thepeople working there because
they have a contracting group,they have a content part, agency
partner, they have this, theyhave that, right?
(23:16):
And then the small company, it's80% of your time you're just
doing your various med affairsstuff and then 20% of your time,
all of a sudden you're an eventscoordinator and by the way,
you're also a contractingperson.
And then you have to figure outhow to pay and.
Track honoraria and yeah, butkeep doing your day job.
So for some people, and probablyone of'em,'cause I've always
(23:36):
gravitated towards startups,like that's actually fun and
exciting.
And other people are like, hellno.
I don't want to do that.
I want things to be done in acertain way and I wanna focus on
not what I'm my corecompetencies.
So it is something.
It's a generalization, but thatone at least is probably pretty.
Universally fair, which is bigcompanies tend to have more
(23:59):
resources and morecompartmentalization than the
small companies.
But one of the things that I didwant to talk on just more about
the day to day,'cause this was amisconception I had in our
pre-call, I was picturing you,getting on the road getting in
your car and just driving allover the place.
Doctor, doctor to doctor, butyou said for you anyway.
Your territory is so big, that'sactually not the case.
(24:20):
You're more in, in airportstravel.
So how do you, if you're on theoutside looking in, how do you
evaluate a position and start tounderstand what the impact to
your, your work life, yourfamily life, your work life
balance, all of that, and justyour day to day, is this gonna
be something I like doing?
How do you understand what thoserequirements are going to
Emet Anceaume (24:39):
Yeah, I think it's very important to have an
honest conversation with thehiring manager about territory
coverage and expectations,right?
So some companies track theirmetrics through.
Interactions in-personinteractions.
Some companies, count virtualinteractions as as well.
(25:00):
Some do a hybrid and I thinkmost companies today do hybrid
after covid, of course.
But I think it's important when,one of the questions that I
would.
Recommend individuals to askduring an interview is to really
get an idea of how many statesthey'll be covering, right?
And what is the expectation oftravel?
(25:22):
Because for individuals thathave families they, we're
talking about work, but we haveto remember we are multifaceted
individuals, right?
We have families, we havehobbies, et cetera.
I think you need to be honestwith yourself.
And while the role might be.
Appealing and, intriguing toyou.
I think you have to have anhonest conversation with
(25:43):
yourself and say, do I seemyself giving this up to be able
to fulfill my day-to-day dutiesin this role?
I.
Jonathan Kaskey (25:53):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
'cause that is ultimately whatit comes down to is it can look.
Again, not everything is rightfor every person.
And what is appealing to youmight not be appealing to me.
But digging, really digging downinto the details.
Travel in particular.
Even from my experience, my, thetravel requirements that I've
been going through have changedsignificantly since c.
(26:17):
I look back to how much I usedto travel.
I'm like, oh my God, I can'tbelieve I did that.
This is so much calmer.
Now, but I remember talking tosomebody who was, you're talking
about how many states are youmanaging?
In other parts of the world,it's like, how many countries
are you managing, right?
Because you might be even moreunder resourced.
So those conversations probablybecome even more important.
(26:37):
I would assume.
Okay.
Let me ask you one, one finalquestion before we wrap up.
And thank you for for all this.
I've been enjoying this.
If you're thinking about, ifyou're putting yourself back to
before you got in and you'rethinking about actually let me
rephrase that.
I'm just gonna cut that lastpart.
So lemme ask you one finalquestion before we end.
(27:00):
Thinking about the pharmaindustry, about the MSL role,
what excites you most about thepotential for younger people or
people fresh outta school?
Thinking of beginning a careerin pharma?
Emet Anceaume (27:14):
Yeah.
I think what excites me the mostis for them to have the
opportunity I.
To be in the front linesfrontline, excuse me, of the
cutting edge research and howtheir efforts and their remedy
of work ultimately influencedpatients' lives.
How, you know that meeting, thatbeing able to communicate the,
(27:38):
the phase three trial results ofa particular drug.
Makes a difference for that drugapproval and ultimately changes
that patient's life.
To me, that's what keeps megoing.
That's what makes me go throughlike the travel days, right?
The hectic schedules, thesleepless nights.
(28:00):
At the end of the day, that'swhat fulfills me.
That's what gives me energy andkeeps me going and wanting to
keep helping other people.
Keep mentoring individuals thatwant to follow my footsteps.
Jonathan Kaskey (28:14):
I love that.
Alright, let's leave it there,Emmett.
Thank you so much.
Emet Anceaume (28:18):
you.
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