February 14, 2025 • 35 mins
Today's Play: Coach Kirk Wagner and Amy Bryant explore the challenges of coach-parent relationships in youth sports, with an emphasis on managing emotional parental feedback. Kirk and Amy highlight the importance of coaches preparing for parental involvement while maintaining clear boundaries, and advise parents to be thoughtful in their communication to coaches to avoid negatively impacting their child's future opportunities.
Today's Coach: Kirk Wagner is the Head Boys Soccer Coach at St. Pius X Catholic High School. Kirk has extensive playing experience at the collegiate level (NAIA St. Edwards University where he is a member of the Hall of Fame), and professional levels (in Germany). His coaching career, spans over 35 years across high school, club, and collegiate levels.
To learn more about Bryant College Coaching, and download our new e-book, click here or go to www.bryantcollegecoaching.com
Picking Teams: A Playbook for Parents is produced by: Amy Bryant and Sasha Melamud
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amy Bryant (00:08):
Hi everybody, and welcome back to picking teams.
Our guest today is Kirk Wagner,called boys soccer coach at St
Pius, ex Catholic High Schoolhere in Atlanta, Georgia. Kirk
has extensive playing experienceat the collegiate, professional
levels, and his coaching careerspans over 35 years across high
school, club and collegiatelevels.
(00:34):
Let's talk a little bit aboutwhen a parent is disgruntled.
Kirk Wagner (00:38):
What do they call that? Spilling Tea? Yeah, well,
I want to stay employed andbiased. I'm lucky. Let me give
you a different perspective. Andthis is my own personal
experience. I think in today'sworld, you cannot be a coach and
(00:58):
not expect and prepare forparent problems. And I don't
agree with now, there's context.
Everything is context. But Idon't agree with this, unless
you're at unless you are, youknow, headed to the MLS, or
that's your path, context ofsoccer, you have a professional
path or a curious college path.
(01:21):
I don't like this era wherecoaches should not deal with
parents like clubs High School.
It's not this way. We have anamazing community that I fully
expect parents and to have badexperiences at times, hard
conversations with parents,because they love their kids,
(01:42):
and this is the most most ofthem. This is the most precious
commodity they have, and there'semotion involved. And you know,
I have my a license in soccer,the highest license you can get.
I constantly learn differentteaching techniques. I listen to
(02:02):
mentors who have nothing to dowith the game that have taught
the highest level, whether it'sin academia or even your run the
Mill High School teacher. Andlet's just say this, I think
good coaches prepare and shouldwelcome parents and listen. Get
clarity. You don't have to agreethat the maximum clarity before
(02:22):
agreement. But, and you Amy, Iknow you called, I think you
call it a parent expectationmeeting. That's a mouthful, but
I'm trying to figure out ifyou're going to say that myself,
and that's a little bit my smallbrain to handle butting
expectations for parents. Superimportant, but I want, I hope,
coaches that are listening willnot go right away to say just
(02:44):
it's the parents. Yes, you havefriends, you have these extreme
parents that I've read, but mostin my experience, love their
kids. They're emotional, theywant to have a conversation, and
they want to watch and I welcomethat. And I've had many of them
be that bias, right whereconversation, and I've had
(03:05):
experiences where parents havebrought me data. I mean, they
went to this club in the worldcamp. You know, they have
letters from coaches that highlyrecommend them play high school
soccer for your program. And,you know, we all have these
(03:27):
stories, right? And I have myfair share of what I call love
letters, which is parents, youknow, writing me things that
would make most wins. But Idon't take offense to that. I
don't, I don't, I get it, and ifI can be the vehicle for you to
release that so it doesn't go onyour kid, cool. I'm ready for
that. Let's have thatconversation. Because what it
(03:48):
turns into, if you listen to theparent and you completely
disagree what they're saying,once we get past the
subjectivity piece, and we justlook at where we're at and they
hear, you're gonna most of theparents I deal with are like, I
don't like it at all, but I getit.
Amy Bryant (04:07):
Yeah, we can respectfully agree to disagree
Kirk Wagner (04:11):
Absolutely. And I hear that and Amy, you probably
too. It's funny, recently, I hada love letter I received, and it
was apparent that it was a preseason game. It the game hadn't
even started, but because theirplayer wasn't on the field,
their son was on the field, Igot a text message immediately
(04:31):
saying how unfortunate Pius wasto hire me. And it just ran the
gamut, right? And I didn't thinkanything of it. I didn't okay, I
get it, but the game hadstarted, and this kid being a
key. Irony is the kid was a keypiece without doing I didn't
need to see the kid like Ididn't need that. The parent
(04:55):
didn't know that, but, but itturned out that the kid had a
great season with me, but Ishared that with fellow coaches
at Pius, and it was hilarious.
It was so innocuous compared towhat they had. I mean, oh my
god. I mean, one of the coacheswho mentioned sent me a
diatribe. It was like a 12 page.
(05:18):
I mean, it was more than a lovelove letter. It was every page
was just dripping with justvapid comments that were amazing
and but hilarious too, like asif their daughter was, this
case, a non biased kid. This wasa former school used to coach at
this kid he was ruining hercareer being the next MLS
(05:40):
superstar. Yeah. And so what youlearn when you share is that
there's emotion involved incoaching. In the game. I don't
come from the camp that youeliminate that motion. I want
parents to feel. I want parentsto love their child. I want
coaches to feel and my playersto feel. But have confidence,
right? Let's have a conversationto make sure we're saying the
(06:02):
same thing, and if we can walkaway disagreeing, that's okay,
at least we're clear. And that'sreally helped me, because
ultimately it is myresponsibility, and ultimately I
will lose my job if I don't doit right. And I'm okay with
that, because I have principlesI believe in, and that's
sometimes hard even in highschool, which, as with any
(06:22):
endeavor that I think I've takenon, I try to, I give it
everything and but I do itwithin context. And in high
school, my job is more than justwinning a soccer game, right? We
are, you know, I have a missionand value statement I've got to
follow as an as an employee ofthe school, and I believe in my
work, right? And I that that isvery much a part of my program.
(06:47):
And if you know, if I haveaccomplished that by by imposing
some of that within my players,you know, I feel like I've done
my job, and parents don't alwayssee or understand that, right?
But, but I've never had anexperience yet today where a
parent didn't do it because theylove their child, they did it
(07:09):
because they love their child,and emotion got the best of
them, and once we have aconversation, they still may not
like me or still I like whatI've done, but we were clear and
and the kids almost never, everwalk away from that situation to
say coach was wrong,
Amy Bryant (07:26):
right? Well, a lot of times when a when a parent
sends you a love letter, firstof all, I love it. You call it a
love letter. Love it, love it'scomplete reframing. And I wish
that I talked to you probably 20years ago, because I cannot tell
you how many times I called ithate mail, right? And I can't
tell you how many, how many lostnights of sleep I had because of
(07:49):
hate mail. If I had justreframed that, oh, look at this
nice, blunt letter I just gotfrom one of these parents. You
know, maybe I would have sleptmore over those years,
Kirk Wagner (07:59):
because it could get very personal. Amy, right?
They look very personal and
Amy Bryant (08:02):
very personal.
Kirk Wagner (08:03):
It does make you check yourself and what
Amy Bryant (08:06):
that's right,
Kirk Wagner (08:07):
how you how you feel, right? I mean, it does
hurt sometimes,
Amy Bryant (08:10):
yes, and it hurts a lot. A good coach recognizes
that each individual on the teamhas their own personal journey
that they're going through andis able to help them through
that personal journey. No matterhow many student athletes you
have on a team, how many playersyou have on a team, they're
still able to recognize theneeds of each individual. That's
(08:31):
a good coach, right? And so whenyou receive a hate mail or sorry
a love letter, when you receivea love letter from a parent. It
really hurts, because goodcoaches are truly trying to
connect with each individualwhere they are. And so what I
would say is, we're on this loveletter topic, and parents, you
(08:54):
know, hopefully this canresonate. Because, you know,
I'll say one other thing too.
Before I had kids, the loveletters that I got, I was like,
this parent's crazy, crazy rightnow that I'm a parent, I can
relate. There have certainlybeen moments where I'm like, I'm
gonna fire off this email andI'm gonna tell him how much I
(09:15):
know, and I can't believe thatthis, you know, person, is
treating my child like I get it,it comes from love for your
child, just like you're sayingall of that comes from love. But
what I would recommend toparents is that they take a
minute to breathe. First of all,never send an email or a text
message on the fly. Always writeit, let it sit for 24 hours at a
(09:37):
minimum. Read it over again.
Remind yourself the coachesaren't paid very much. They have
other jobs, but they're theyhave families. They are human.
To extend grace and then decideif you really want to send that
email message, make that phonecall, whatever it is. So sit on
(09:58):
it for a minute. Nothing has tobe handled within that moment of
rage that you're feeling
Kirk Wagner (10:06):
absolutely, yeah, we have a 24 hour rule of pious,
I know, and not everybody keepsit, but it's, I think it's, it's
worth advice. And I love theidea. I think you're right. I
think that's, that's a hugehack, right, which is, write it
right then and there. Get itout, write it. Don't put the
name on the email or write onpaper, whatever your format
communication is. Go to room andscream it out, whatever it is.
(10:27):
Go ahead and go for it. Let thatout and have a go. And then
revisit it what you wrote andand with a cooler head, maybe
you will gain insights that willprovide a little bit more value.
But say the Say what you need tosay, but in a different way that
might affect a coach in abucket, better way.
Amy Bryant (10:44):
Yeah, right, and also So oftentimes, child will
come home complain aboutsomething I'm not getting.
Playing time. Coach doesn't likeme. Coach has favorites. Coaches
and playing me in my position,whatever it is, right? Child
comes home, talks to parentsabout it, complaint, and parent
sometimes automatically goes to,I'm in protect mode, right? I'm
(11:09):
gonna protect I'm gonna fix, I'min fixed mode now I'm gonna fix
this. And they go to fire offthe email. Well, instead, if we
can also add in a parent coachmode, meaning, how can I coach
my child in this situation toperhaps reframe how they're
seeing the situation? Like,let's talk about this now. Your
(11:30):
coach is playing you in adifferent position. Well, what
do you think your coach istrying to achieve for the team
as a whole by playing you in adifferent position? Or your
coach, my coach isn't playingme. I'm not getting playing
time. Okay. Well, how have youbeen doing at practice? Have you
been giving 100% effort? How'syour attitude? Have you shown up
(11:51):
every day to practice on time?
You know, like there are certainthings that we can coach as
parents. I hope we can be thatbuffer. There needs to be that
educational piece with our kids,so we can help coaches, instead
of automatically going to fix,protect, fire off emails. So I
think that's an important stepthat a lot of parents kind of
(12:11):
men. The other piece of that isthey need to remember that
sometimes they're not gettingthe full story, which is why it
is important to have thiscommunications with coaches. But
again, respectful communicationwith coaches, like the coach
might come back to the parentand say, Look, your kid's not
focused at practice, and parentwouldn't know that kid might not
be able to articulate that, andthat could be a discussion for
(12:33):
something else. Why? What'sgoing on, what's on your mind?
Is there something else we needto talk about here. And so
again, we all work together fromevery stage of this process,
then we can really make animpact as parents, as coaches
and as players. And the lastthing, last thing I want to say
about that too. I'm sure you gotfired off some thoughts for you.
(12:54):
But a lot of times when parentswrite these love letters, kids
don't even know. Kids have noidea, and they would be
horrified to know that theirparents set off that meeting.
And I always like to point thatout, because before you press
send, think about what yourchild wants out of the
(13:15):
situation. You know it's notgoing to get your kid more
playing time by sending thatemail. It's not, if anything,
it's going to cause a coach todig their heels into the sand
even deeper. So
Kirk Wagner (13:31):
Well, I think I think about the lesson here,
right? The lesson really isokay. We tell parents. I know
coaches tell kids all the timewhat you send on email is
permanent, so you sent this loveletter out that's permanent, and
now we are in a position ascoaches where a college coach
(13:52):
says, Hey, I'd love to recruitXYZ player. And what do you do?
You know, if you're ethicallyand morally on point, you have
to share that with that collegecoach to say, well, we have
something you need to be awareof. Or, or, you know, or maybe
you have sit down with thestudent, like you said, and you
(14:14):
say, Look, this is whathappened. You're being
recruited, and you and they'relike so they're horrified and
and now we're in a real dilemmaall because of an emotional
outburst that could have beenhandled differently. And so
you're, you're really, you'rereally teaching the opposite and
(14:34):
modeling the opposite of whatyou're telling a kid to do,
because it will. And really,parent know this, it's just,
it's, I think generallyspeaking, you know, the fringes
are always going to be thefringes, right? I think on
average, that regression to themean is, most parents know this,
and I think that they it'shelpful to hear this from time
and again. They make surethey're measured in their
(14:55):
responses. But, but in general,it is, it is it really comes
down that, down to that for me,which is, if we are all modeling
and telling our children, look,everything is permanent, and it
there's a record here, do youreally want that in your file
going forward? If you don't? Andso let's find a different way
(15:15):
and and as you said, it's, it's,it starts with, I think modeling
correct behavior with yourchild. And then it goes to
having a game plan to where, ifthere are problems, anticipate
that, like before season,thinking, Okay, we may have
problems with this coach, thiscoach, and I don't get our son
don't anticipate that. Have agame plan. So when the issue
comes, be prepared. You know,that's one way that the hack for
(15:38):
dealing with that right? Becauseyou're going into senior, your
senior in high school, you're,you are playing on your you're
in that dreaded tryout periodfor club, right, whatever
support you choose, but soccer,this is a big deal here, right,
which is all these parentsstress about the tryout period
and and you know you're going Tobe potentially put in a bad
(16:00):
situation start have a game planfor that as a parent, and then
when that situation arrives, atleast, you have someone with a
tool kit to grab toward and touse, versus going cold turkey
and letting that emotion kick inand doing what you do as a
parent, which love your kid, toprotect and and have that fight
or flight reaction to asituation that probably is going
(16:23):
to be you're going to be worseoff there than had you kind of
pre prepared. So something to I
Amy Bryant (16:28):
mean, it's a great, great, great point, because then
I think parents really need tounderstand that college coaches
do check references. I mean,when they're recruiting, when
they are recruiting players,they're thinking, in most cases,
I'm going to have this player onmy team for four years. Do I
(16:48):
want a parent that is going tobe sending me love letters? You
know, every year? Am I going tohave to deal with this, or am I
going to have to deal withemotional outbursts on the
sidelines? Am I going to have todeal with, you know, who knows?
Am I going to have to deal witha parent overriding my coaching
by communicating to their kid?
And so there's all sorts of redflags that can be identified by
(17:11):
how a student athleteparticipates in their club or
their high school sports. Andguess what? Coaches know? How
the you know know all that theclub and high school coaches,
they're the ones that have thekids, they hold the key, in many
cases, to a student athletesfuture. And so, yeah, your
(17:35):
behavior is really important.
Parents really, really importantfor your child's future.
Kirk Wagner (17:43):
Can we build this open Amy at 2001 is I reference
your listeners to the podcastyou did with the I may get this
wrong, so correct me, but Ibelieve she coached at Virginia.
She's the hitting coach. Yeah.
CJ. CJ, coach. CJ. I love her.
The moment in the podcast whereshe talks about going out, I
(18:06):
believe in Colorado to see a kidand and she was there to see the
player, and what she witnessedwas a child parent. I won't give
it away because I want to belistening to podcasts, but a
situation that one moment likeno longer affordable, right?
(18:28):
Because you're not going to dealwith that. So that's kind of one
thing I'd like for yourlisteners to think about.
Another thing I think that mightbe helpful to your listeners is,
I was recently at a call toshowcase a game where they were
college coaches there for soccerand some big schools, and one of
the coaches I got to visit with,just we were just, kind of, as
(18:50):
we say in Texas, kicking thetire and and I wanted an answer
to something, which was, why doI see so many older players
playing in college? Like, Idon't get it, like I watched
recently, high school playerswho've been on the play division
one, and they were Clemson wasin town. One of the two of them
were at Georgia State, then wentto the game and the lineup and
everything. I seem to have agraduate student. There's a man
(19:12):
on the fields like 26 years oldplaying college soccer.
Personally, for me, fullyagainst that. I don't get that
personally. If I had the power Iwould prevent that. I don't.
That's not what collegeathletics you should be about.
But I digress, the point is,we're talking about that. He
said, Well, we are. We're justnot going to recruit many
(19:33):
freshmen. I mean, you have to benational team or top level for
us to give you for the bigschools, right? And give you
money. We're not I was like,why? He said we're not going to
take a chance with freshmen,even if we do our due diligence,
if, even if we know the kid thefamily would have you, it's just
too high of a risk. And most ofthese college coaches at higher
(19:55):
level want to feed their family.
They have a great life. They areactually making good money. They
have a great situation from acoach who coaches Lent and
they're not going to take achance in the freshman that is
an unknown, whereas a graduatestudent is known, right? They're
going to take a chance when theforeign kid is a little older
comes over. Because the the thereality is, is that it's less
(20:16):
risk. And so digest that for aminute. Here you have a
situation where it's alreadydifficult for these parents who
have kids who, you know, let's,let's talk about the ones who
are actually going and have achance to play in college,
right? Because that's a wholeanother topic that that we could
probably do along for a longtime. But let's just say we have
a particular player that is a ais qualified as a true
(20:42):
scholarship worthy division oneathlete. It's already hard
enough statistically to makethat piece correct. Now, what's
in your control? Well, yourbehavior up to that point is
completely in your control, likeit's algebra. And cancel that
piece out, yep, right? Becauseit's already tough enough, and
(21:04):
then taking out an effect,because their coaches are
looking for that. Now, takingthe coaches who are like, I'm
not going to deal with afreshman, regardless of you,
unless you are truly top notch,right? 1% of the 1% they're not
going to take a chance,generally speaking. Now this is
I'm paying with a broad brush,but in general, this is the
feedback I got at this fromthese coaches, and they're all
(21:27):
dying out. We're with the portalnow with with all the money
situation change that you'reeducating parents on, with the
foreign influence on our sport,and kids coming over, with
graduate students beingavailable. You know, the
likelihood of your kid playing,even as a freshman, is very low,
much less getting in and gettingthe scholarship, etc, etc, etc.
(21:49):
So if you can eliminate which,going back to the original
point, you can eliminate thethings you truly do have control
over. And that's, that's asuccessful formula, it really
is. And so, so get that pieceright, because all the other
pieces are so much morecomplicated now your control,
not to mention the current wavewe're in, and how coaches view
(22:11):
and what they want in collegeand what they're getting and the
opportunity. I mean, the demandis high and the supply is low,
and that's a terrible informedbusinessman. That's a That's a
terrible business to be in. Sowanted to share those two
thoughts, because I think it'sit may provide a little context
again and perspective on what'sreally happening now and what
(22:36):
these parents are facing comingup, especially if you have a
top, top notch kid.
Amy Bryant (22:42):
Yeah, and I'll add on to that, just for any
families that are soccerplaying, families and really
want to play in college, becauseI think men's soccer in
particular is a very complicatedsport in terms of the options
you're mentioning, supply anddemand. So I think that it's
really important for familiesalso, you know, we're a little
(23:04):
off topic here, but I want to, Ijust need to say this, to
explore all of their options.
And you know, you're talkingabout the upper echelon of, you
know, college soccer, which isthe clemsons of the world. You
know, Georgia State has greatprograms, but there are 400 plus
schools in Division three.
(23:24):
There's about 200 schools inDivision two. You know, I mean,
st EDS with Division two. Whenyou were
Kirk Wagner (23:30):
there, were they, we were a lot, because they're a
bit different. Now, when I wasthere, was called NAIA.
Amy Bryant (23:36):
I think nai great
Kirk Wagner (23:39):
kids in our school, so we were competing against the
big dog, but I think now they'regood too.
Amy Bryant (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Back then there was a lot ofoverlap, but yeah, Nai is great
option now too. Nai is like theoriginal NCAA for a lot of
sports. It's so anyways, mypoint is, explore all your
options. The college soccer isgood from top to bottom, because
the supply is low in Divisionone. You know, there's just not
that many options at the upperechelon, because of the
(24:07):
international students, becauseof the transfer brokers also
said, Hey, but by
Kirk Wagner (24:14):
the way, compared to your community, tell your
community and players that Ithink, I think there's two
schools Coach mentioned. He saidthere is a school in West
Virginia, I think they're divtwo. He said they're, they wipe
the floor with division oneteams. There's a JUCO here. I
think it's somewhere on the WestCoast, maybe. He said, everybody
(24:36):
wants to go there, because theyalso will wipe the floor with
nearly every team. Now they haveBrazilians, and they have all
these, you know, foreign kidsthat come in that are really
high level in the game, andthey're using it as a platform,
really, to get to them last theycould care less cool as a
platform to be seen and havesome fun, right? So,
Amy Bryant (24:55):
so yeah, education and get an education. But yes,
it's definitely a pipeline. Andalso the, you know, the
eligibility in JUCO is a littlebit different than it is for
NCLA. So a lot of these kidscouldn't play NCAA if they
wanted to. And 26 year old, yousaw, that's a rare scenario,
that kid had to have had somesort of a waiver, public COVID
waiver. Finally, injury, youknow, whatever it is, but you
(25:18):
really can't be that age. Youcan read, but it's very
difficult to be that agent beplaying in Division One, so you
don't see that very often inDivision One, the eligibility
rules are a little different inDivision Two and Division Three,
JUCO and an Nai. So you see thata lot more so anyways, well,
let's, let's wrap up here. AndI'm taking a lot of your time
(25:38):
already, but you are a parent.
You have two boys at A and M youmentioned already, and then you
have your two daughters, who areyoung, but I'm sure we'll start
playing sports at some point. Soas a parent yourself, what does
it look like when you watch yourkids compete? What values are
you teaching them? How are yousupporting them?
Kirk Wagner (25:59):
Oh, man, I've made, let's be clear, I've made every
mistake in the book myself,right? So a lot of me, one of
the benefits of being older isyou can look back and grow. I
would say that the greatestlesson learned from COVID I
coached my boys. They were Isort of took the perspective of
boys. You can play whatever youwant. You play the sport you
want. But naturally, I was asoccer player. You know, I had
(26:21):
the history. I played a veryhigh level. They knew about they
soon learned about that. So theynaturally went to soccer. And
both my boys were technicallyvery good in the game, but my
son, and he was started highschool. He he, he did me a real
favor. He taught me something,and that is he came to me and
(26:42):
said, Dad, I don't want to playsoccer anymore. I don't want to
play any sport. And I rememberhaving to pause and catch my
breath, because it was like Whatprobably happened over this past
Thanksgiving holiday, wheregrandma had to try it out. Some
kid threw up the floor andshouted, all the floor. I mean,
the shards of porcelain where myson were on the floor before me.
(27:07):
And I didn't as a coach, I knewI couldn't show emotion or
really react, by the way. I justsaid, Okay, son, you want to
talk about it? And he said, No.
And I carried on, and I rememberhaving to take many, many long
walks to process that. And whereI landed was it was a real gift
for my son, because you cannotdo it for your kids. You know,
(27:30):
if it's not organic, you can setit up, you can give them the
shoes and the coaches and thetraining and this and that, and
all the amount of money, timeand effort I put in, my son said
soccer. And they were goodplayers, and they they could
have, but my son hatedcompeting. He did not like
competing. And if you're gonna,you know this, if you don't have
(27:53):
that competitive element, you'renot going to go very far in
sports, generally speaking. Andand that was great. It was a
blessing, because he did that onhis own. He had the courage to
come tell me, and and ourrelationship completely changed.
It was, it was, it was great.
And we had to, and I had to findnew Amy, which is what I was
(28:16):
realizing was, you know, I hadthese dreams and wishes
suppressed. I didn't know if Icould share it with him, but
that's what drove me a lot. Iand really what it was was the
game gets so much any sport, andmy sport in particular has just
given me so much life. I wantedthat for my son, and the
blessing now is he plays theirmural at Dana. He loves it tells
(28:38):
me about like that. We play as asmoke these guys. I did is what
have you. And so it's a it's adifferent world, but that's his
world and and it's great, andour relationship was so much the
better for it, because he justdidn't enjoy that. So So I think
with my daughters, I will followa similar tactic, and then I
want them to kind of figure outwhat sport they're going to do.
I'm sure at some point, soccerwill be a piece of that, and I
(29:02):
will support them. And if theywant to go for it, I'll support
them 100% in that. But now thatI'm an older parent and I have
experience in and I've been ableto use my poor sons as a, as a
as a means to become better atthis, I will probably only
(29:22):
change the fact that I need toto keep aware of my own
tendencies, which is to go rightaway to that, you know, how I
see the world, and I'm obviouslystill working on that, right?
You know, there's this bigdebate. There's always been a
big debate. A lot of my parentsI coach, say, Hey, should I
(29:42):
focus on soccer, or should Iplay local sports? Right? I'm
not going to be very popularwith some of your listeners,
because I come from the camp. Atsome point you have to choose. I
don't believe in what JackNicklaus says, which is they
should play all these differentsports until as long as they
can. I believe that up untilabout eighth grade or so. You
always play sports. But when youwant to focus, you have to
(30:06):
focus, because this is our stockin soccer, especially if you're
playing football and basketballand soccer, unless you are Deion
Sanders or you're in that Illcalled 1% it doesn't translate.
You have if you're going to gohigh end and you're going to be
an elite athlete, you have tofocus on your sport and you have
to go for it. That's my opinion.
I could be wrong, but that's myexperience. I don't expect that
for my daughters, necessarily.
(30:27):
Expect that per se for my sons,but I did know what it took to
be and to take the next leveland with my girls, I will
probably the lesson therelearned is, is that I need to
understand that that's mytendency. And since I know that
it's there, it's their journeyto figure out I'm really there
as a guide, and to almost beSocratic in the way I approach
(30:50):
it versus thinking I have toanswer it, because it's always
changing, right? So, but, butone thing I will say is they do
want to go for it. You know, asI tell the parents now, is they
have to decide. You know, youhave to decide, in my opinion,
unless you have a kid that'ssuper gifted, and some kids are
that way, right? There isbaseball and football, for
(31:13):
example, right? They're twodifferent seasons, and they do
very well in that soccer is justa different sport, and it has,
it's kind of like golf. Youknow, most kids have to. It's
not easy playing golf. And ifyou're gonna play all these
other sports and just thinkyou're gonna go compete at the
high level, playing golf not youneed to. It takes a bit of. It
(31:35):
takes time. So feel the ramblingresponse. But I know that I can
my girls can benefit from thelessons learned my boys, and if
they want to go for it, I havesome new ways to approach that,
and hopefully they'll benefitfrom
Amy Bryant (31:52):
it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing
that journey to self awarenesswith your parenting. I think
that's really helpful for otherparents to hear lots of broken
shards
Kirk Wagner (32:01):
on the ground there, yeah. But you know
Amy Bryant (32:05):
what I want to point out, too, and this is for
parents to live like it's okay.
And we figured this out, likeyour older son, he's like, I'm
not competitive. I don't I don'twant to do this, but playing
sports is part of living ahealthy lifestyle, and that is
what you were able to supportyour son to do, as shown by him
(32:26):
playing intramurals now in atTexas a&m So when a student so
when parents say to me, Look, mykid doesn't want to play
anymore. I'm like, okay, great.
Your kid doesn't have to play atthat level anymore, but they
need to be doing somethingactive as part of a healthy
(32:47):
lifestyle. There's plenty ofrecreational opportunities we we
have to become in this countryso obsessed with success and
making it to the next level, andwe'll throw so much money on it
to get to that next level, we'relosing sight of the purpose of
sports, and that is for exerciseand fitness and community and
(33:08):
joy and all of these otherthings. And that doesn't
necessarily equate with being atthe best level all the time. You
know only a small fraction ofkids are supposed to make it to
that next level. And I knowwe're all trying to get our kids
there at some point. We think weare, but that's not always the
recipe for success. So I want topoint that out. Well,
Kirk Wagner (33:30):
it's a business.
Amy, right? It's a business.
Amy Bryant (33:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Kirk Wagner (33:35):
You had that. You had the coach on as well, and
she was definitely a veterancoach. I remember she, I think,
played at Tulane. She wasbasketball, played at all coast,
all different levels. She wasalso part of the Women's
Association. Yeah, that's agreat podcast. Let's do it,
because her forewarning ofwhat's happening in sports is
spot on. It is, it is abusiness, and, you know, parents
(33:58):
don't even like going to thework every day. Imagine having
to go through that with your kidand the sport they're choosing
to play. It is, it is a full on,especially in IL and all the
other stuff that's happeningnow. I mean, it is. It's a
business, and you better preparefor that reality. If, if you
want to go that route, it's awild, wild world out there right
now, for sure,
Amy Bryant (34:18):
and piggyback on that. Like, do you want your
child, even a young child, tofeel like they are performing a
job at a young age to get there?
You know, that's, you know, foodfor thought, something for our
listeners to think about as theend. But I so appreciate you
being here. Kirk, you were, youwere great. You brought up such
wonderful points, and we willdefinitely have to have you
(34:39):
back.
Do you want to learn more abouthow to positively parent your
athlete? Check out my new ebookcalled let them play. You'll
like it. It contains more nononsense tips for parents like
(35:01):
you, available on Amazon foryour Kindle or on my website via
PDF or ePub.
Hi everybody, and welcome back to picking teams.
Our guest today is Kirk Wagner,called boys soccer coach at St
Pius, ex Catholic High Schoolhere in Atlanta, Georgia. Kirk
has extensive playing experienceat the collegiate, professional
levels, and his coaching careerspans over 35 years across high
school, club and collegiatelevels.
(00:34):
Let's talk a little bit aboutwhen a parent is disgruntled.
Kirk Wagner (00:38):
What do they call that? Spilling Tea? Yeah, well,
I want to stay employed andbiased. I'm lucky. Let me give
you a different perspective. Andthis is my own personal
experience. I think in today'sworld, you cannot be a coach and
(00:58):
not expect and prepare forparent problems. And I don't
agree with now, there's context.
Everything is context. But Idon't agree with this, unless
you're at unless you are, youknow, headed to the MLS, or
that's your path, context ofsoccer, you have a professional
path or a curious college path.
(01:21):
I don't like this era wherecoaches should not deal with
parents like clubs High School.
It's not this way. We have anamazing community that I fully
expect parents and to have badexperiences at times, hard
conversations with parents,because they love their kids,
(01:42):
and this is the most most ofthem. This is the most precious
commodity they have, and there'semotion involved. And you know,
I have my a license in soccer,the highest license you can get.
I constantly learn differentteaching techniques. I listen to
(02:02):
mentors who have nothing to dowith the game that have taught
the highest level, whether it'sin academia or even your run the
Mill High School teacher. Andlet's just say this, I think
good coaches prepare and shouldwelcome parents and listen. Get
clarity. You don't have to agreethat the maximum clarity before
(02:22):
agreement. But, and you Amy, Iknow you called, I think you
call it a parent expectationmeeting. That's a mouthful, but
I'm trying to figure out ifyou're going to say that myself,
and that's a little bit my smallbrain to handle butting
expectations for parents. Superimportant, but I want, I hope,
coaches that are listening willnot go right away to say just
(02:44):
it's the parents. Yes, you havefriends, you have these extreme
parents that I've read, but mostin my experience, love their
kids. They're emotional, theywant to have a conversation, and
they want to watch and I welcomethat. And I've had many of them
be that bias, right whereconversation, and I've had
(03:05):
experiences where parents havebrought me data. I mean, they
went to this club in the worldcamp. You know, they have
letters from coaches that highlyrecommend them play high school
soccer for your program. And,you know, we all have these
(03:27):
stories, right? And I have myfair share of what I call love
letters, which is parents, youknow, writing me things that
would make most wins. But Idon't take offense to that. I
don't, I don't, I get it, and ifI can be the vehicle for you to
release that so it doesn't go onyour kid, cool. I'm ready for
that. Let's have thatconversation. Because what it
(03:48):
turns into, if you listen to theparent and you completely
disagree what they're saying,once we get past the
subjectivity piece, and we justlook at where we're at and they
hear, you're gonna most of theparents I deal with are like, I
don't like it at all, but I getit.
Amy Bryant (04:07):
Yeah, we can respectfully agree to disagree
Kirk Wagner (04:11):
Absolutely. And I hear that and Amy, you probably
too. It's funny, recently, I hada love letter I received, and it
was apparent that it was a preseason game. It the game hadn't
even started, but because theirplayer wasn't on the field,
their son was on the field, Igot a text message immediately
(04:31):
saying how unfortunate Pius wasto hire me. And it just ran the
gamut, right? And I didn't thinkanything of it. I didn't okay, I
get it, but the game hadstarted, and this kid being a
key. Irony is the kid was a keypiece without doing I didn't
need to see the kid like Ididn't need that. The parent
(04:55):
didn't know that, but, but itturned out that the kid had a
great season with me, but Ishared that with fellow coaches
at Pius, and it was hilarious.
It was so innocuous compared towhat they had. I mean, oh my
god. I mean, one of the coacheswho mentioned sent me a
diatribe. It was like a 12 page.
(05:18):
I mean, it was more than a lovelove letter. It was every page
was just dripping with justvapid comments that were amazing
and but hilarious too, like asif their daughter was, this
case, a non biased kid. This wasa former school used to coach at
this kid he was ruining hercareer being the next MLS
(05:40):
superstar. Yeah. And so what youlearn when you share is that
there's emotion involved incoaching. In the game. I don't
come from the camp that youeliminate that motion. I want
parents to feel. I want parentsto love their child. I want
coaches to feel and my playersto feel. But have confidence,
right? Let's have a conversationto make sure we're saying the
(06:02):
same thing, and if we can walkaway disagreeing, that's okay,
at least we're clear. And that'sreally helped me, because
ultimately it is myresponsibility, and ultimately I
will lose my job if I don't doit right. And I'm okay with
that, because I have principlesI believe in, and that's
sometimes hard even in highschool, which, as with any
(06:22):
endeavor that I think I've takenon, I try to, I give it
everything and but I do itwithin context. And in high
school, my job is more than justwinning a soccer game, right? We
are, you know, I have a missionand value statement I've got to
follow as an as an employee ofthe school, and I believe in my
work, right? And I that that isvery much a part of my program.
(06:47):
And if you know, if I haveaccomplished that by by imposing
some of that within my players,you know, I feel like I've done
my job, and parents don't alwayssee or understand that, right?
But, but I've never had anexperience yet today where a
parent didn't do it because theylove their child, they did it
(07:09):
because they love their child,and emotion got the best of
them, and once we have aconversation, they still may not
like me or still I like whatI've done, but we were clear and
and the kids almost never, everwalk away from that situation to
say coach was wrong,
Amy Bryant (07:26):
right? Well, a lot of times when a when a parent
sends you a love letter, firstof all, I love it. You call it a
love letter. Love it, love it'scomplete reframing. And I wish
that I talked to you probably 20years ago, because I cannot tell
you how many times I called ithate mail, right? And I can't
tell you how many, how many lostnights of sleep I had because of
(07:49):
hate mail. If I had justreframed that, oh, look at this
nice, blunt letter I just gotfrom one of these parents. You
know, maybe I would have sleptmore over those years,
Kirk Wagner (07:59):
because it could get very personal. Amy, right?
They look very personal and
Amy Bryant (08:02):
very personal.
Kirk Wagner (08:03):
It does make you check yourself and what
Amy Bryant (08:06):
that's right,
Kirk Wagner (08:07):
how you how you feel, right? I mean, it does
hurt sometimes,
Amy Bryant (08:10):
yes, and it hurts a lot. A good coach recognizes
that each individual on the teamhas their own personal journey
that they're going through andis able to help them through
that personal journey. No matterhow many student athletes you
have on a team, how many playersyou have on a team, they're
still able to recognize theneeds of each individual. That's
(08:31):
a good coach, right? And so whenyou receive a hate mail or sorry
a love letter, when you receivea love letter from a parent. It
really hurts, because goodcoaches are truly trying to
connect with each individualwhere they are. And so what I
would say is, we're on this loveletter topic, and parents, you
(08:54):
know, hopefully this canresonate. Because, you know,
I'll say one other thing too.
Before I had kids, the loveletters that I got, I was like,
this parent's crazy, crazy rightnow that I'm a parent, I can
relate. There have certainlybeen moments where I'm like, I'm
gonna fire off this email andI'm gonna tell him how much I
(09:15):
know, and I can't believe thatthis, you know, person, is
treating my child like I get it,it comes from love for your
child, just like you're sayingall of that comes from love. But
what I would recommend toparents is that they take a
minute to breathe. First of all,never send an email or a text
message on the fly. Always writeit, let it sit for 24 hours at a
(09:37):
minimum. Read it over again.
Remind yourself the coachesaren't paid very much. They have
other jobs, but they're theyhave families. They are human.
To extend grace and then decideif you really want to send that
email message, make that phonecall, whatever it is. So sit on
(09:58):
it for a minute. Nothing has tobe handled within that moment of
rage that you're feeling
Kirk Wagner (10:06):
absolutely, yeah, we have a 24 hour rule of pious,
I know, and not everybody keepsit, but it's, I think it's, it's
worth advice. And I love theidea. I think you're right. I
think that's, that's a hugehack, right, which is, write it
right then and there. Get itout, write it. Don't put the
name on the email or write onpaper, whatever your format
communication is. Go to room andscream it out, whatever it is.
(10:27):
Go ahead and go for it. Let thatout and have a go. And then
revisit it what you wrote andand with a cooler head, maybe
you will gain insights that willprovide a little bit more value.
But say the Say what you need tosay, but in a different way that
might affect a coach in abucket, better way.
Amy Bryant (10:44):
Yeah, right, and also So oftentimes, child will
come home complain aboutsomething I'm not getting.
Playing time. Coach doesn't likeme. Coach has favorites. Coaches
and playing me in my position,whatever it is, right? Child
comes home, talks to parentsabout it, complaint, and parent
sometimes automatically goes to,I'm in protect mode, right? I'm
(11:09):
gonna protect I'm gonna fix, I'min fixed mode now I'm gonna fix
this. And they go to fire offthe email. Well, instead, if we
can also add in a parent coachmode, meaning, how can I coach
my child in this situation toperhaps reframe how they're
seeing the situation? Like,let's talk about this now. Your
(11:30):
coach is playing you in adifferent position. Well, what
do you think your coach istrying to achieve for the team
as a whole by playing you in adifferent position? Or your
coach, my coach isn't playingme. I'm not getting playing
time. Okay. Well, how have youbeen doing at practice? Have you
been giving 100% effort? How'syour attitude? Have you shown up
(11:51):
every day to practice on time?
You know, like there are certainthings that we can coach as
parents. I hope we can be thatbuffer. There needs to be that
educational piece with our kids,so we can help coaches, instead
of automatically going to fix,protect, fire off emails. So I
think that's an important stepthat a lot of parents kind of
(12:11):
men. The other piece of that isthey need to remember that
sometimes they're not gettingthe full story, which is why it
is important to have thiscommunications with coaches. But
again, respectful communicationwith coaches, like the coach
might come back to the parentand say, Look, your kid's not
focused at practice, and parentwouldn't know that kid might not
be able to articulate that, andthat could be a discussion for
(12:33):
something else. Why? What'sgoing on, what's on your mind?
Is there something else we needto talk about here. And so
again, we all work together fromevery stage of this process,
then we can really make animpact as parents, as coaches
and as players. And the lastthing, last thing I want to say
about that too. I'm sure you gotfired off some thoughts for you.
(12:54):
But a lot of times when parentswrite these love letters, kids
don't even know. Kids have noidea, and they would be
horrified to know that theirparents set off that meeting.
And I always like to point thatout, because before you press
send, think about what yourchild wants out of the
(13:15):
situation. You know it's notgoing to get your kid more
playing time by sending thatemail. It's not, if anything,
it's going to cause a coach todig their heels into the sand
even deeper. So
Kirk Wagner (13:31):
Well, I think I think about the lesson here,
right? The lesson really isokay. We tell parents. I know
coaches tell kids all the timewhat you send on email is
permanent, so you sent this loveletter out that's permanent, and
now we are in a position ascoaches where a college coach
(13:52):
says, Hey, I'd love to recruitXYZ player. And what do you do?
You know, if you're ethicallyand morally on point, you have
to share that with that collegecoach to say, well, we have
something you need to be awareof. Or, or, you know, or maybe
you have sit down with thestudent, like you said, and you
(14:14):
say, Look, this is whathappened. You're being
recruited, and you and they'relike so they're horrified and
and now we're in a real dilemmaall because of an emotional
outburst that could have beenhandled differently. And so
you're, you're really, you'rereally teaching the opposite and
(14:34):
modeling the opposite of whatyou're telling a kid to do,
because it will. And really,parent know this, it's just,
it's, I think generallyspeaking, you know, the fringes
are always going to be thefringes, right? I think on
average, that regression to themean is, most parents know this,
and I think that they it'shelpful to hear this from time
and again. They make surethey're measured in their
(14:55):
responses. But, but in general,it is, it is it really comes
down that, down to that for me,which is, if we are all modeling
and telling our children, look,everything is permanent, and it
there's a record here, do youreally want that in your file
going forward? If you don't? Andso let's find a different way
(15:15):
and and as you said, it's, it's,it starts with, I think modeling
correct behavior with yourchild. And then it goes to
having a game plan to where, ifthere are problems, anticipate
that, like before season,thinking, Okay, we may have
problems with this coach, thiscoach, and I don't get our son
don't anticipate that. Have agame plan. So when the issue
comes, be prepared. You know,that's one way that the hack for
(15:38):
dealing with that right? Becauseyou're going into senior, your
senior in high school, you're,you are playing on your you're
in that dreaded tryout periodfor club, right, whatever
support you choose, but soccer,this is a big deal here, right,
which is all these parentsstress about the tryout period
and and you know you're going Tobe potentially put in a bad
(16:00):
situation start have a game planfor that as a parent, and then
when that situation arrives, atleast, you have someone with a
tool kit to grab toward and touse, versus going cold turkey
and letting that emotion kick inand doing what you do as a
parent, which love your kid, toprotect and and have that fight
or flight reaction to asituation that probably is going
(16:23):
to be you're going to be worseoff there than had you kind of
pre prepared. So something to I
Amy Bryant (16:28):
mean, it's a great, great, great point, because then
I think parents really need tounderstand that college coaches
do check references. I mean,when they're recruiting, when
they are recruiting players,they're thinking, in most cases,
I'm going to have this player onmy team for four years. Do I
(16:48):
want a parent that is going tobe sending me love letters? You
know, every year? Am I going tohave to deal with this, or am I
going to have to deal withemotional outbursts on the
sidelines? Am I going to have todeal with, you know, who knows?
Am I going to have to deal witha parent overriding my coaching
by communicating to their kid?
And so there's all sorts of redflags that can be identified by
(17:11):
how a student athleteparticipates in their club or
their high school sports. Andguess what? Coaches know? How
the you know know all that theclub and high school coaches,
they're the ones that have thekids, they hold the key, in many
cases, to a student athletesfuture. And so, yeah, your
(17:35):
behavior is really important.
Parents really, really importantfor your child's future.
Kirk Wagner (17:43):
Can we build this open Amy at 2001 is I reference
your listeners to the podcastyou did with the I may get this
wrong, so correct me, but Ibelieve she coached at Virginia.
She's the hitting coach. Yeah.
CJ. CJ, coach. CJ. I love her.
The moment in the podcast whereshe talks about going out, I
(18:06):
believe in Colorado to see a kidand and she was there to see the
player, and what she witnessedwas a child parent. I won't give
it away because I want to belistening to podcasts, but a
situation that one moment likeno longer affordable, right?
(18:28):
Because you're not going to dealwith that. So that's kind of one
thing I'd like for yourlisteners to think about.
Another thing I think that mightbe helpful to your listeners is,
I was recently at a call toshowcase a game where they were
college coaches there for soccerand some big schools, and one of
the coaches I got to visit with,just we were just, kind of, as
(18:50):
we say in Texas, kicking thetire and and I wanted an answer
to something, which was, why doI see so many older players
playing in college? Like, Idon't get it, like I watched
recently, high school playerswho've been on the play division
one, and they were Clemson wasin town. One of the two of them
were at Georgia State, then wentto the game and the lineup and
everything. I seem to have agraduate student. There's a man
(19:12):
on the fields like 26 years oldplaying college soccer.
Personally, for me, fullyagainst that. I don't get that
personally. If I had the power Iwould prevent that. I don't.
That's not what collegeathletics you should be about.
But I digress, the point is,we're talking about that. He
said, Well, we are. We're justnot going to recruit many
(19:33):
freshmen. I mean, you have to benational team or top level for
us to give you for the bigschools, right? And give you
money. We're not I was like,why? He said we're not going to
take a chance with freshmen,even if we do our due diligence,
if, even if we know the kid thefamily would have you, it's just
too high of a risk. And most ofthese college coaches at higher
(19:55):
level want to feed their family.
They have a great life. They areactually making good money. They
have a great situation from acoach who coaches Lent and
they're not going to take achance in the freshman that is
an unknown, whereas a graduatestudent is known, right? They're
going to take a chance when theforeign kid is a little older
comes over. Because the the thereality is, is that it's less
(20:16):
risk. And so digest that for aminute. Here you have a
situation where it's alreadydifficult for these parents who
have kids who, you know, let's,let's talk about the ones who
are actually going and have achance to play in college,
right? Because that's a wholeanother topic that that we could
probably do along for a longtime. But let's just say we have
a particular player that is a ais qualified as a true
(20:42):
scholarship worthy division oneathlete. It's already hard
enough statistically to makethat piece correct. Now, what's
in your control? Well, yourbehavior up to that point is
completely in your control, likeit's algebra. And cancel that
piece out, yep, right? Becauseit's already tough enough, and
(21:04):
then taking out an effect,because their coaches are
looking for that. Now, takingthe coaches who are like, I'm
not going to deal with afreshman, regardless of you,
unless you are truly top notch,right? 1% of the 1% they're not
going to take a chance,generally speaking. Now this is
I'm paying with a broad brush,but in general, this is the
feedback I got at this fromthese coaches, and they're all
(21:27):
dying out. We're with the portalnow with with all the money
situation change that you'reeducating parents on, with the
foreign influence on our sport,and kids coming over, with
graduate students beingavailable. You know, the
likelihood of your kid playing,even as a freshman, is very low,
much less getting in and gettingthe scholarship, etc, etc, etc.
(21:49):
So if you can eliminate which,going back to the original
point, you can eliminate thethings you truly do have control
over. And that's, that's asuccessful formula, it really
is. And so, so get that pieceright, because all the other
pieces are so much morecomplicated now your control,
not to mention the current wavewe're in, and how coaches view
(22:11):
and what they want in collegeand what they're getting and the
opportunity. I mean, the demandis high and the supply is low,
and that's a terrible informedbusinessman. That's a That's a
terrible business to be in. Sowanted to share those two
thoughts, because I think it'sit may provide a little context
again and perspective on what'sreally happening now and what
(22:36):
these parents are facing comingup, especially if you have a
top, top notch kid.
Amy Bryant (22:42):
Yeah, and I'll add on to that, just for any
families that are soccerplaying, families and really
want to play in college, becauseI think men's soccer in
particular is a very complicatedsport in terms of the options
you're mentioning, supply anddemand. So I think that it's
really important for familiesalso, you know, we're a little
(23:04):
off topic here, but I want to, Ijust need to say this, to
explore all of their options.
And you know, you're talkingabout the upper echelon of, you
know, college soccer, which isthe clemsons of the world. You
know, Georgia State has greatprograms, but there are 400 plus
schools in Division three.
(23:24):
There's about 200 schools inDivision two. You know, I mean,
st EDS with Division two. Whenyou were
Kirk Wagner (23:30):
there, were they, we were a lot, because they're a
bit different. Now, when I wasthere, was called NAIA.
Amy Bryant (23:36):
I think nai great
Kirk Wagner (23:39):
kids in our school, so we were competing against the
big dog, but I think now they'regood too.
Amy Bryant (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Back then there was a lot ofoverlap, but yeah, Nai is great
option now too. Nai is like theoriginal NCAA for a lot of
sports. It's so anyways, mypoint is, explore all your
options. The college soccer isgood from top to bottom, because
the supply is low in Divisionone. You know, there's just not
that many options at the upperechelon, because of the
(24:07):
international students, becauseof the transfer brokers also
said, Hey, but by
Kirk Wagner (24:14):
the way, compared to your community, tell your
community and players that Ithink, I think there's two
schools Coach mentioned. He saidthere is a school in West
Virginia, I think they're divtwo. He said they're, they wipe
the floor with division oneteams. There's a JUCO here. I
think it's somewhere on the WestCoast, maybe. He said, everybody
(24:36):
wants to go there, because theyalso will wipe the floor with
nearly every team. Now they haveBrazilians, and they have all
these, you know, foreign kidsthat come in that are really
high level in the game, andthey're using it as a platform,
really, to get to them last theycould care less cool as a
platform to be seen and havesome fun, right? So,
Amy Bryant (24:55):
so yeah, education and get an education. But yes,
it's definitely a pipeline. Andalso the, you know, the
eligibility in JUCO is a littlebit different than it is for
NCLA. So a lot of these kidscouldn't play NCAA if they
wanted to. And 26 year old, yousaw, that's a rare scenario,
that kid had to have had somesort of a waiver, public COVID
waiver. Finally, injury, youknow, whatever it is, but you
(25:18):
really can't be that age. Youcan read, but it's very
difficult to be that agent beplaying in Division One, so you
don't see that very often inDivision One, the eligibility
rules are a little different inDivision Two and Division Three,
JUCO and an Nai. So you see thata lot more so anyways, well,
let's, let's wrap up here. AndI'm taking a lot of your time
(25:38):
already, but you are a parent.
You have two boys at A and M youmentioned already, and then you
have your two daughters, who areyoung, but I'm sure we'll start
playing sports at some point. Soas a parent yourself, what does
it look like when you watch yourkids compete? What values are
you teaching them? How are yousupporting them?
Kirk Wagner (25:59):
Oh, man, I've made, let's be clear, I've made every
mistake in the book myself,right? So a lot of me, one of
the benefits of being older isyou can look back and grow. I
would say that the greatestlesson learned from COVID I
coached my boys. They were Isort of took the perspective of
boys. You can play whatever youwant. You play the sport you
want. But naturally, I was asoccer player. You know, I had
(26:21):
the history. I played a veryhigh level. They knew about they
soon learned about that. So theynaturally went to soccer. And
both my boys were technicallyvery good in the game, but my
son, and he was started highschool. He he, he did me a real
favor. He taught me something,and that is he came to me and
(26:42):
said, Dad, I don't want to playsoccer anymore. I don't want to
play any sport. And I rememberhaving to pause and catch my
breath, because it was like Whatprobably happened over this past
Thanksgiving holiday, wheregrandma had to try it out. Some
kid threw up the floor andshouted, all the floor. I mean,
the shards of porcelain where myson were on the floor before me.
(27:07):
And I didn't as a coach, I knewI couldn't show emotion or
really react, by the way. I justsaid, Okay, son, you want to
talk about it? And he said, No.
And I carried on, and I rememberhaving to take many, many long
walks to process that. And whereI landed was it was a real gift
for my son, because you cannotdo it for your kids. You know,
(27:30):
if it's not organic, you can setit up, you can give them the
shoes and the coaches and thetraining and this and that, and
all the amount of money, timeand effort I put in, my son said
soccer. And they were goodplayers, and they they could
have, but my son hatedcompeting. He did not like
competing. And if you're gonna,you know this, if you don't have
(27:53):
that competitive element, you'renot going to go very far in
sports, generally speaking. Andand that was great. It was a
blessing, because he did that onhis own. He had the courage to
come tell me, and and ourrelationship completely changed.
It was, it was, it was great.
And we had to, and I had to findnew Amy, which is what I was
(28:16):
realizing was, you know, I hadthese dreams and wishes
suppressed. I didn't know if Icould share it with him, but
that's what drove me a lot. Iand really what it was was the
game gets so much any sport, andmy sport in particular has just
given me so much life. I wantedthat for my son, and the
blessing now is he plays theirmural at Dana. He loves it tells
(28:38):
me about like that. We play as asmoke these guys. I did is what
have you. And so it's a it's adifferent world, but that's his
world and and it's great, andour relationship was so much the
better for it, because he justdidn't enjoy that. So So I think
with my daughters, I will followa similar tactic, and then I
want them to kind of figure outwhat sport they're going to do.
I'm sure at some point, soccerwill be a piece of that, and I
(29:02):
will support them. And if theywant to go for it, I'll support
them 100% in that. But now thatI'm an older parent and I have
experience in and I've been ableto use my poor sons as a, as a
as a means to become better atthis, I will probably only
(29:22):
change the fact that I need toto keep aware of my own
tendencies, which is to go rightaway to that, you know, how I
see the world, and I'm obviouslystill working on that, right?
You know, there's this bigdebate. There's always been a
big debate. A lot of my parentsI coach, say, Hey, should I
(29:42):
focus on soccer, or should Iplay local sports? Right? I'm
not going to be very popularwith some of your listeners,
because I come from the camp. Atsome point you have to choose. I
don't believe in what JackNicklaus says, which is they
should play all these differentsports until as long as they
can. I believe that up untilabout eighth grade or so. You
always play sports. But when youwant to focus, you have to
(30:06):
focus, because this is our stockin soccer, especially if you're
playing football and basketballand soccer, unless you are Deion
Sanders or you're in that Illcalled 1% it doesn't translate.
You have if you're going to gohigh end and you're going to be
an elite athlete, you have tofocus on your sport and you have
to go for it. That's my opinion.
I could be wrong, but that's myexperience. I don't expect that
for my daughters, necessarily.
(30:27):
Expect that per se for my sons,but I did know what it took to
be and to take the next leveland with my girls, I will
probably the lesson therelearned is, is that I need to
understand that that's mytendency. And since I know that
it's there, it's their journeyto figure out I'm really there
as a guide, and to almost beSocratic in the way I approach
(30:50):
it versus thinking I have toanswer it, because it's always
changing, right? So, but, butone thing I will say is they do
want to go for it. You know, asI tell the parents now, is they
have to decide. You know, youhave to decide, in my opinion,
unless you have a kid that'ssuper gifted, and some kids are
that way, right? There isbaseball and football, for
(31:13):
example, right? They're twodifferent seasons, and they do
very well in that soccer is justa different sport, and it has,
it's kind of like golf. Youknow, most kids have to. It's
not easy playing golf. And ifyou're gonna play all these
other sports and just thinkyou're gonna go compete at the
high level, playing golf not youneed to. It takes a bit of. It
(31:35):
takes time. So feel the ramblingresponse. But I know that I can
my girls can benefit from thelessons learned my boys, and if
they want to go for it, I havesome new ways to approach that,
and hopefully they'll benefitfrom
Amy Bryant (31:52):
it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing
that journey to self awarenesswith your parenting. I think
that's really helpful for otherparents to hear lots of broken
shards
Kirk Wagner (32:01):
on the ground there, yeah. But you know
Amy Bryant (32:05):
what I want to point out, too, and this is for
parents to live like it's okay.
And we figured this out, likeyour older son, he's like, I'm
not competitive. I don't I don'twant to do this, but playing
sports is part of living ahealthy lifestyle, and that is
what you were able to supportyour son to do, as shown by him
(32:26):
playing intramurals now in atTexas a&m So when a student so
when parents say to me, Look, mykid doesn't want to play
anymore. I'm like, okay, great.
Your kid doesn't have to play atthat level anymore, but they
need to be doing somethingactive as part of a healthy
(32:47):
lifestyle. There's plenty ofrecreational opportunities we we
have to become in this countryso obsessed with success and
making it to the next level, andwe'll throw so much money on it
to get to that next level, we'relosing sight of the purpose of
sports, and that is for exerciseand fitness and community and
(33:08):
joy and all of these otherthings. And that doesn't
necessarily equate with being atthe best level all the time. You
know only a small fraction ofkids are supposed to make it to
that next level. And I knowwe're all trying to get our kids
there at some point. We think weare, but that's not always the
recipe for success. So I want topoint that out. Well,
Kirk Wagner (33:30):
it's a business.
Amy, right? It's a business.
Amy Bryant (33:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
Kirk Wagner (33:35):
You had that. You had the coach on as well, and
she was definitely a veterancoach. I remember she, I think,
played at Tulane. She wasbasketball, played at all coast,
all different levels. She wasalso part of the Women's
Association. Yeah, that's agreat podcast. Let's do it,
because her forewarning ofwhat's happening in sports is
spot on. It is, it is abusiness, and, you know, parents
(33:58):
don't even like going to thework every day. Imagine having
to go through that with your kidand the sport they're choosing
to play. It is, it is a full on,especially in IL and all the
other stuff that's happeningnow. I mean, it is. It's a
business, and you better preparefor that reality. If, if you
want to go that route, it's awild, wild world out there right
now, for sure,
Amy Bryant (34:18):
and piggyback on that. Like, do you want your
child, even a young child, tofeel like they are performing a
job at a young age to get there?
You know, that's, you know, foodfor thought, something for our
listeners to think about as theend. But I so appreciate you
being here. Kirk, you were, youwere great. You brought up such
wonderful points, and we willdefinitely have to have you
(34:39):
back.
Do you want to learn more abouthow to positively parent your
athlete? Check out my new ebookcalled let them play. You'll
like it. It contains more nononsense tips for parents like
(35:01):
you, available on Amazon foryour Kindle or on my website via
PDF or ePub.
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