February 25, 2025 • 23 mins
In this special episode of Pickleball Therapy we sit down for an insightful and fun conversation with Shelley and Sher, the duo behind Life Lessons from Pickleball.
We discuss the genesis of their podcast, their relationship with pickleball, eye-opening moments from their mental side of playing pickleball and much more!
Listen to the full episode as the duo shares with us how they deal with competitive partners, the pressure of improvement and more importantly, enjoying the journey and focusing on personal growth rather than just results.
Check out and support Shelley and Sher at https://www.lifelessonsfrompickleballpodcast.com/ or you can find them on any podcast platform.
If you want to listen to the mentioned podcast episode featuring Tony as the guest, go to https://www.lifelessonsfrompickleballpodcast.com/2311660/episodes/16612545-e43-tony-roig-winning-strategies-for-pickleball-and-beyond
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Shelley and Sher, it's a pleasure to haveyou on the Pickleball Therapy podcast.
Yeah, I did it again.
We just finished a podcastfor your all's podcast.
Why don't you guys say hello to everybody?
Tell them a little bit about yourselves.
Sher, why don't we start withyou, and then we'll go to Shelley.
Oh, man, we just had the best conversationwith you, Tony, and I
don't think we can keep up.Oh, my God.
(00:24):
It was an amazing half hour, 40 minutes.
I mean, we didn't want to stop.
So thank you so much forhaving us on your podcast.
We are long-time listeners,learned so much from you.
Let's see, what about me?
I just started Pickleballalmost two years ago.
Back, met Shelley the very first day I wason the court, and we
became fast friends then.
(00:45):
I had just ended a marriage.
I had just moved.
I had a whole new environmentand was in a good space.
But it's like, Okay, how am I going tomeet new people and what am I going to do?
I'd retired just recently retired.
So everything changed all at once.But it was awesome.
And Pickleball has been unbelievablywonderful in every way, shape, and form.
(01:11):
That is awesome.
I just lost my screenbehind you, but that's fine.
We're going to keep on share.Thanks for sharing that.
We're going to talk about that a littlebit more because we just talked
about that on the other podcast, too.
Let's play a little bit.
Sher, why don't you share a littlebit about yourself with the listeners?
Yeah.My husband and I had just been traveling.
It was in 2018, we sold everythingand were traveling around the world.
(01:33):
We had just come back.
We raised our family here inSeattle, but we had just come back.
I was looking for a new community,wondering what I wanted to do.
I had a friend say, Hey, youneed to go try pickleball.
We talked about earlier,I wasn't an athlete.
I'm like, Well, pickleball?I never played tennis.
(01:54):
Can I do this?
I went to my first lesson and I gave ita try, and I've been hooked ever since.
I can't believe the amazing community it'sbrought me, the joy it's brought to my
life, and how it's empoweredme as an individual.
It's just been amazing.
That is awesome stuff.
Tell us a little bit about what'sthe genesis for the podcast?
(02:17):
Whoever wants to take it,I'll leave it up to you guys.
What was the genesis for the podcast?
How did you guys decide, Hey, let's do apodcast, and then tell
everybody a little bit about what thepodcast is about, because we're going to
send them there at the end, and we'll putin the show notes Okay, go ahead, Sher.
It's called Life Lessons from Pickleball.
The way we came about it, as I mentioned,we met on the Pickleball Corp for a lesson
(02:38):
and then just became great friends andstarted realizing all this magic and joy
and incredible physicalactivity and all this.
We were having so much fun and met allthese other people who were having so much
fun, and we wanted to starthearing their stories.
We were sharing our own stories with eachother, and we wanted to hear
everybody else's stories.
We have international backgrounds, each Wewere able to reach out to people all over
(03:02):
the world and say, Will you beguests on this show if we do it?
We had friends who were our first guests,and they helped us get our
feet wet and figure it out.
We sat down and came upwith how many words, Sher?
Yeah, probably 50 words we brainstormed,what pickleball had brought to our lives.
(03:24):
Like wisdom, sharing, connectedness,high vibration, heart, joy.
The list went on and on.
We were astounded, really,when we sat down and did it.
Then we took our list and wedistilled it into three pillars.
Our three pillars were connectedness,joy, and empowerment.
(03:45):
Love it.
You have three pillars inyour system, too, Tony.
We do a lot of stuff inthree, so that's awesome.
I love it.
It's connectedness, joy, and empowerment.That's awesome.
Those are great.
So community, basically, connectedness,community, joy, your personal
reaction and happiness, and thenempowerment is this growing
(04:07):
or strengthening of yourself.That's awesome.
Yes.
Just feeling physically andemotionally and mentally.
Like you said, all of asudden I'm an athlete.
It is very empowering.
I can do this.
I'm going to have to give a little contextabout the athlete thing in a second.
Let me give you a context of that.
What happened was during ourpodcast interview a little bit ago, I
(04:30):
mentioned about the idea of usingthe term athlete to define yourself.
If you play pickleball multiple days andhost a podcast for a pickleball,
you're more than just a casual player.
This is something I want to givecredit to my co-head coach, C.
J.
Johnson, because it'ssomething that she was very...
C.J.
And I didn't tell you guys thisduring our interview before, but C.
(04:51):
J.Has been an athlete her entire life.
Imagine she's been an athleteduring a lot of times when being a
professional woman athlete, which she was,one of the easiest thing in the world.
It wasn't like...
Not that today is easy, but it'smaybe easier than it was 20 years ago.
I can't give away your age.Before Title 9.
Yeah, a little bit ago.
(05:12):
But she was very adamant about that.
That connected, I believe, with Sher,because the concept of being an athlete
seems to be something thatreally resonated with you, Sher.
That's what I'm hearing.
Yes.
Always being the kid that I'm athletic,but I never had the confidence to
join a team or go out for sports.
So I never thought ofmyself as an athlete.
(05:33):
And so pickleball hasbeen really empowering.
What's interesting is just even using thatterm will potentially start
percolating through other things.
Because for instance, an athlete ismore likely to warm up before they play.
An athlete is more likely to stretcha little bit after they play.
An athlete is more likely tohydrate before a big day of...
Whatever.The things that athletes do.
(05:55):
And so now all of a suddenyou're like, wait a minute, I'm supposed
to do this because I'm an athlete.
So then it starts percolatingthroughout the parts.
That's super cool.Awesome.
Yeah, it's really cool.
I love the words, and I'm going toput you guys on the spot for a second.
Because this is a question that we ask ourstudents, which is,
and I'll give you guys a second to thinkabout it because I'll probably ramble on
about something for a second, but thinkabout what's your one-word
(06:18):
relationship with pickleball?
What is the one-word that definesyour relationship with pickleball?
If you're ready, you can answer.
If you need a minute, wink at meand I'll keep about something.
Actually, the word thatcomes for me is presence.
I listen to most of them, but one of themthat you talk about is even focusing so
(06:43):
much on the pickleball that yousee the holes of the pickleball.
I mean, actually, you can almostfeel one with that ball in it.
No matter where it goes,you're ready for it.
That only happens if we arepresent in that very moment.
I try to carry that into my life, too.
Not as well, and not always wellon the pickleball court either.
But that's the word that comes for me.
(07:05):
It's interesting because you can, and I'mgoing to get you, Sher, in a second, but
it's interesting how youcan think about using...
I like to think about pickleball, and thisis something that's fairly recent for me
in terms of this thought process, but I'vebeen thinking about pickleball a lot as a
canvas.
Pickleball itself is fine.It's great.
You go out there, hit the ball, but it'smore than about the plastic ball
(07:26):
and the paddle and whatever.
It's a canvas for ourselves.
We get to work on ourselves physically,mentally, emotionally, spiritually
on the pickleball court.
What's interesting about presence isthis idea, it's almost like a meditation.
It becomes like a meditation for you.
If you approach it that way,super healthy for you,
you're going to be fine with the results,and you're going to get all the benefits
(07:49):
from it, plus the additional benefit ofthe present's practice, which is awesome.
All right, Sher, what you got?You got a word?
I got a word.It's joy.
Laying in bed the night before, I'm soexcited knowing I have a
pickleball game the next day.
I wake up, I jump out of bed,go to my pickleball game.
(08:11):
I love the community.
Even if I don't know the people I'mplaying, I'm excited to meet new people.
And I'm joy with what my body is goingto do, what's going to happen that day.
I love it.
The important thing about the reason Iasked the question is, and we asked the
question of our students, is thatThat word, it's your word, right?
(08:32):
You came up with it.I didn't come up with it.
I didn't even suggest it.You guys came up with it.
That word becomes youall's quid pro quo when you go play.
Basically, results don't matterbecause that's not why you went to play.
You guys didn't say, I play pickle.
My one more relationship is, kick an asswhen I play pickleball or winning
every game when I play pickleball.
(08:54):
If presence for share and joy for Shelley,then you're good to The
rest doesn't matter.You went 0-8 today.
Okay, cool.I got to see my friends.
I got pitzled.I got pitzled.
Yeah.It is what it is.
You're playing the greatest sporton the planet from my perspective.
Yeah.Awesome stuff.
(09:17):
Share with us a littlebit, if you don't mind.
Was there something that happened alongyour pickleball journey that was either an
eye-opening moment for you from the mentalside or something, some challenge that you
faced that was that you werelike, Man, this is tough.
It could be how you feltafter a losing session.
(09:37):
It can be an experience with a player whodidn't behave the way that we
would like players to behave.
Whatever stuff that jumps out to you thatwas a thing that happened that
changed maybe a little bit of thetrajectory on your pickleball journey?
Yeah, I'm very relationship-oriented.
If I'm playing with somebody for whom WhenI'm winning is the end-all be-all,
(10:02):
I have a hard time with that.
In fact, I'll start out bysaying, I play this for fun.
I do try to win.I try to do my best.
But if I don't win, no big deal.
If I'm playing with somebody for whom thatis a big deal, the pressure I feel to
support them in their goal towin is pretty tricky for me.
(10:24):
I'm an empath, so I'mpicking up, so, Sher.
I'm picking up theiranxiety and yada, yada.
The more I can stay in my own zone, whichis important in my life, too, to not just
be absorbing everybody else's thoughts andfeelings and taking them on as
mine, just stay in that moment.
So I think that might be why presence issuch an important word for me,
(10:45):
that I stay in my lane, I stay in my mind,I stay in my heart, do the best I
can, and have fun in the process.
Yeah, that's interesting.
And then I thinkthat's something that's greatly
undervalued, I would say, in terms of justeven performance as an athlete, as a
player, is the energybetween partners on the doubles court.
(11:11):
It's so impactful becauseI have the same experience.
I've gotten to a place in my life where Ilove playing pickleball, but I don't
go play pickleball to be stressed.
Exactly.
Then don't call me.
That's going to be the case.
I'll tell you guys a quick side story, andthen I'm going to get
(11:32):
to you, Shelly, on it.
But a quick side story is,I go to Nationals in '23.
It was in Dallas, the PPA Nationals thing.
I like going to tournaments primarilybecause I get to see the senior pro
players who I don't get to see on aregular basis because
they're all over the country.To me, I view it as an open play to me.
I get to go and say hi to themand play a couple of games.
(11:52):
Whatever happens, happens.I'm fine.
But I'm looking around and I'm seeing allmy friends and other folks that I know,
they look miserable.
Absolutely miserable.
The faces and the thing and the whatever.
I actually wrote a piece about it.
I'm like, Why did you go to National?
(12:15):
You paid money to go there.
You had to travel, you had to take timeaway, you had to register,
you had to be upset.
I'm like, wow.
We're all 50 plus.
I wish 20-year-olds could also do it,but as 50 plus, we're like, come on.
Anyway, I find that fascinating, thewin-it-all-cost a thing.
(12:38):
Anyway, sorry.Cheli, go ahead.
Share with us something,if you don't mind.
Where I'm at in my pickleballjourney is, like I said, I love it.
The first time I'm an athlete,I love doing tournaments.
It's so fun, so empowering.
But I'm starting to develop this fearthat I'm not going to get any better.
What if I don't keep gettingas good as my partner?
(12:59):
And then what if my partner doesn't wantto be my partner anymore
because I'm not getting better?
And so I'm thinkingabout, what do I do with that?
Where do I turn?
What do I do to get to get better.
Right now, there's folks listening tothe podcast and you just touch a nerve.
(13:19):
You put a hot poker on a nerve becausegetting left behind or that is a
super stressful feeling for players.
I don't want to get left behind.
For yours, it's morespecific, more micro, because yours is
specific to a one partnership ina tournament, which is important.
For others, it might just be like, I'mgoing to be left behind in this group.
(13:39):
I'm not going to give outit to this group anymore.
That's a difficult It's difficult toanswer it in terms of,
what do I do to keep up?
Because that's almostimpossible to exactly do.
There's numerous reasons for that.
Remember, it could also go the other way.
Now, I'm not saying that you woulddump your partner, but it happens, where
(14:04):
if there'snot a congruence of objectives, and that's
what I think I would focus on for you andyour partner, is why are you
guys playing tournaments?
If you guys are playing tournaments, let'ssay your partner is in the same place you
are mentally, maybeyour partner has better thirds and
you have better volleys, whatever.
(14:25):
But if your partner is going to thetournament to enjoy Enjoy being with
Shelley, enjoy the competition, enjoy thecamaraderie, then that would remove
some of your stress about, Oh, my God, mythird shots are at a 62% rate, and they
need to be at a 67% rate in order forthis partner to want to play with me.
Maybe have a conversation with yourpartner about what their interests are.
(14:48):
Then I would suggest that the...
Let's assume that your partner, andobviously, it's
very hypothetical, but let's assume thatyour partner is like, I
want to win at all costs.
I need to get gold medals,and I'm going to keep going.
Then that will inform your decisionmaking in terms of what you want to do.
If that's consistent with what you want,it doesn't sound like it's
consistent with what you want anyway.
(15:09):
That would tell you some information thatyou go, Okay, and that's
if you want the best for your partner, yousay, I'll tell you, what I did recently
was I got a friend ofmine here in Tampa, of ours, me and my
wife, very good pickleball players, beenworking on our game a lot, hasn't really
broken through the senior pro-ranks yet.
I I think she's under-thinking how goodshe is in terms of what
(15:34):
she can get as a partner.
But anyway, she asked me if Iwould play with her in the US Open.
I had no plans of playing in the US Openthis year because we got too much stuff
going on and we're not going down therefor the whole week like
we have done in the past.
I had a conversation with her andI said, Chris, here's the thing.
I want to be up front.
I'm not drilling right now.
I'm not hardly playing.
I play once a week on average of that, 1.
(15:56):
2 times a week or somethinglike that, at most.
You You can get a better partner thanme if you want to give yourself the
best chance to go deep in the draw.I'll do my best.
I'm going to go out there, I'm going togive it my all, but I got to be realistic.
We had an open conversation about it, andher interest is
to work on her strategy, which I am verygood at in game strategy, and I'm
(16:19):
a very good mixed doubles player.
That'll be good for her, I think.
She knows I'll give it my all, and sheknows I'll be a supportive partner.
I do offer some characteristics that arebeneficial, but I am not the best
option for going deep in a tournament.
I have a puncher's chance,if you know what I'm saying.
Me and my partners have beaten very goodteams, and we've competed against
(16:42):
other very good teams very closely.
But sometimes I run out of energy orthings break down because
I'm not doing them as often.
I would have a conversation, Sher, withyour partner before I put all that
burden on myself in terms of...
I mean, I would because I I think rightnow, basically, you're projecting a little
(17:02):
bit about what you're thinking to yourpartner instead of talking to your
partner and just have the conversation.
The other thing I would suggest, just bigpicture improvement for anybody listening
and for you guys as well,if this interests you.
The numbering systemworks against us in our improvement
journey because the jumps are pretty big.
(17:25):
When you talk about, I'm a 3-0 and I'mgoing to go to 3-5, or I'm a 3-5 going
to 4-0, those are humongous jumps.
It is better to think about it in terms ofI'm going from
3-5-5 to 3-6-2, or something like that.
Because I would suggest you if youhypothetically knew that team A was a 3.
(17:47):
7 team, 3.
7, and team B was legit 3.
6 team, if we can know that certainly.
In that match, the team A, the 3.
7 team wins like 11-2.
It's not close.
So the difference between 3.7 and 3.
6 is night and day.
And the same thing with 3-8and 3-7, and 3-6 and 3-5.
(18:07):
Do you see what I'm saying?
So you got to bring itdown a little bit to...
Because I think too many playersare like, I need to become a 4-0.
And you're like, Well, legit 4-0,legit 4-0, it should be hard.
Because legit 4-0 is a legit 4-0.
The term that I coinedand I use is benchmark.
(18:30):
So a benchmark 4.0 player is a standard bearer.
They're a standard bearer for pickleball.
They know how to playpickleball amazingly well.
The reason they don't play 4.
5 is because of some offensiveweapons, some other things.
But they play every facetof the game at a good 4.
0, benchmark 4.0 player.
So that's a standard bearer.You know what I mean?
(18:50):
I think we throw these numbers aroundlike they're like, no big deal.
3.5 is an amazing level.
3.5 is solid play.
Most rec play is not 3-5 play,not good 3-5 play.
You know what I mean?
They call themselves3-5, but just not really.
That's the other thing, too.
It's like these number things, they'redeceiving me because it's like
players are like, I need to be a 4-0.
I'm like, Forget about the number.
(19:13):
If you know how to play 4-0, you'll play4-0 when you're out there on the court.
Whatever your number is, you'regoing to play like a 4-0 player.
If your number is 4-0, but you're playinglike a 3-3, you're still
going to play like a 3-3.The number is not going to help you.
But your thing, specifically, big picture,the number thing or like that, just be
careful with that becausethose gaps are huge.
3, 5, 4, 0, 3, 0, whatever,wherever you're at.
(19:35):
Then on the partner, I would justhave a conversation with your partner.
My guess is, based on whatyou've described as your interest, it
sounds like you having fun at tournaments.
You're having fun at tournaments, thattells me that your partner is having fun
at tournaments, which tells me that yourpartner is probably in
the same place you are.You just need to have a conversation.
So you're like, Oh, cool.
(19:56):
I can relax now.
Anyway, that would be mysuggestion on that front.
And then obviously, keep working on yourgame and keep growing
the way you want to grow.
And one other piece I'll tell you guys andanybody listening is the journey,
there's no endpoint.
And that's the thing that's trickybecause what players think about,
and this is the way we explain it.
(20:16):
So we go, sowhere you're standing right now as a
pickleball player, wherever you're at.
So you're imagining a player,call it six months from now.
So you want to be that player, the one sixmonths from that can do all
these things and all this stuff.
Let's fast forward for a second.
So now, six months from now, whatdo you think is going to happen?
(20:38):
You're going to want to be the player.Exactly.
You're never satisfied.
If you're always looking ahead at the nextplayer, at the next version of yourself,
you don't enjoy this player,and you don't enjoy these steps.
You really rob yourself because the nextplayer is going to want to be the
next player, and it never ends.
And so you lose.
But it actually works against youbecause you lose these moments
(21:00):
that you should treasure.
You should love the little step that youtook yesterday and the one day you're
going to take tomorrow and thesilly thing you're going to do the next
day to take a step back, and thenyou take another step forward.
You should enjoy all of those.
They're like the present thingthat Shera was talking about.
Is that your phone?
Does that mean time's up?Timer.
No, it's not a Timer.
You can give me a Timer.But I'm going to tell you what it was.
(21:21):
It was my wife calling me.
She's the only one that bypassesmy phone, but it's fine.
That's why at the beginning of thepodcast, there's a phone ringing because
my wife called during thepodcast and I kept it in.
That's the story.Anyway, Sher, tell me the thing.
It's okay if you want to take that call.
No, it's fine.I'll call her back.
I was just saying yourepisode, Are We There Yet?
(21:42):
You go into detail aboutthat whole concept.
I loved that.
It's like it's the journeyand who we are now.
Yeah, good on you.I love that.
Yeah.
I think a lot of times it'sjust a perspective thing.
I'm not telling you guys anything thatwasn't already there.
It's just you maybe weren't seeing it.
It's like lifting a blanket or something.
You're like, Look, it's right there.You're like, Oh, shit.
(22:03):
Yeah, I get it.I'm not teaching you guys anything.
I'm just showing you something that'salready present, which
a lot of times is the work.
Anyway, all right, guys.
Let me ask you a question here.
Players out there,I love the fact that I listen to
pickleball Therapy, but I reallyappreciate the work that you guys are
doing to continue to,not continue to, but to share, to share
(22:26):
stories from yourselves and fromother players, sharing about yourself.
Shera, I appreciate you sharing, andShera, you too, but sharing about your
journeys, so that other players out theredon't think that they're the only ones
that have gone through life changes andthen pickleball has been good for them.
It's so helpful to hear thatinformation from you and from
(22:46):
your guests on the podcast.
So I certainly would encourage ourlisteners to check you guys out.
What's the best way forthem to find you guys?
Lifelessons from pickleballpodcast.Com.
Then the other thing is,they You guys are on Apple, Spotify,
wherever there are podcasts, right?
Everything, and YouTube.
And YouTube, so you can type inLife Lessons from Pickleball, right?
(23:08):
Yeah.Okay.
Life Lessons from Pickleball.
In your podcast feed, the same place youlisten to this podcast,
unless you're on our platform.
So ladies, it was a pleasure chatting withyou and getting to know you guys better.
I appreciate everything you guys aredoing and keep putting up the good work.
Tony, you're a hoot.Thank you so much.
Thank you.
(23:29):
The check's in the mail, I swear.
We've already taught it so much.Thanks, guys.
Shelley and Sher, it's a pleasure to haveyou on the Pickleball Therapy podcast.
Yeah, I did it again.
We just finished a podcastfor your all's podcast.
Why don't you guys say hello to everybody?
Tell them a little bit about yourselves.
Sher, why don't we start withyou, and then we'll go to Shelley.
Oh, man, we just had the best conversationwith you, Tony, and I
don't think we can keep up.Oh, my God.
(00:24):
It was an amazing half hour, 40 minutes.
I mean, we didn't want to stop.
So thank you so much forhaving us on your podcast.
We are long-time listeners,learned so much from you.
Let's see, what about me?
I just started Pickleballalmost two years ago.
Back, met Shelley the very first day I wason the court, and we
became fast friends then.
(00:45):
I had just ended a marriage.
I had just moved.
I had a whole new environmentand was in a good space.
But it's like, Okay, how am I going tomeet new people and what am I going to do?
I'd retired just recently retired.
So everything changed all at once.But it was awesome.
And Pickleball has been unbelievablywonderful in every way, shape, and form.
(01:11):
That is awesome.
I just lost my screenbehind you, but that's fine.
We're going to keep on share.Thanks for sharing that.
We're going to talk about that a littlebit more because we just talked
about that on the other podcast, too.
Let's play a little bit.
Sher, why don't you share a littlebit about yourself with the listeners?
Yeah.My husband and I had just been traveling.
It was in 2018, we sold everythingand were traveling around the world.
(01:33):
We had just come back.
We raised our family here inSeattle, but we had just come back.
I was looking for a new community,wondering what I wanted to do.
I had a friend say, Hey, youneed to go try pickleball.
We talked about earlier,I wasn't an athlete.
I'm like, Well, pickleball?I never played tennis.
(01:54):
Can I do this?
I went to my first lesson and I gave ita try, and I've been hooked ever since.
I can't believe the amazing community it'sbrought me, the joy it's brought to my
life, and how it's empoweredme as an individual.
It's just been amazing.
That is awesome stuff.
Tell us a little bit about what'sthe genesis for the podcast?
(02:17):
Whoever wants to take it,I'll leave it up to you guys.
What was the genesis for the podcast?
How did you guys decide, Hey, let's do apodcast, and then tell
everybody a little bit about what thepodcast is about, because we're going to
send them there at the end, and we'll putin the show notes Okay, go ahead, Sher.
It's called Life Lessons from Pickleball.
The way we came about it, as I mentioned,we met on the Pickleball Corp for a lesson
(02:38):
and then just became great friends andstarted realizing all this magic and joy
and incredible physicalactivity and all this.
We were having so much fun and met allthese other people who were having so much
fun, and we wanted to starthearing their stories.
We were sharing our own stories with eachother, and we wanted to hear
everybody else's stories.
We have international backgrounds, each Wewere able to reach out to people all over
(03:02):
the world and say, Will you beguests on this show if we do it?
We had friends who were our first guests,and they helped us get our
feet wet and figure it out.
We sat down and came upwith how many words, Sher?
Yeah, probably 50 words we brainstormed,what pickleball had brought to our lives.
(03:24):
Like wisdom, sharing, connectedness,high vibration, heart, joy.
The list went on and on.
We were astounded, really,when we sat down and did it.
Then we took our list and wedistilled it into three pillars.
Our three pillars were connectedness,joy, and empowerment.
(03:45):
Love it.
You have three pillars inyour system, too, Tony.
We do a lot of stuff inthree, so that's awesome.
I love it.
It's connectedness, joy, and empowerment.That's awesome.
Those are great.
So community, basically, connectedness,community, joy, your personal
reaction and happiness, and thenempowerment is this growing
(04:07):
or strengthening of yourself.That's awesome.
Yes.
Just feeling physically andemotionally and mentally.
Like you said, all of asudden I'm an athlete.
It is very empowering.
I can do this.
I'm going to have to give a little contextabout the athlete thing in a second.
Let me give you a context of that.
What happened was during ourpodcast interview a little bit ago, I
(04:30):
mentioned about the idea of usingthe term athlete to define yourself.
If you play pickleball multiple days andhost a podcast for a pickleball,
you're more than just a casual player.
This is something I want to givecredit to my co-head coach, C.
J.
Johnson, because it'ssomething that she was very...
C.J.
And I didn't tell you guys thisduring our interview before, but C.
(04:51):
J.Has been an athlete her entire life.
Imagine she's been an athleteduring a lot of times when being a
professional woman athlete, which she was,one of the easiest thing in the world.
It wasn't like...
Not that today is easy, but it'smaybe easier than it was 20 years ago.
I can't give away your age.Before Title 9.
Yeah, a little bit ago.
(05:12):
But she was very adamant about that.
That connected, I believe, with Sher,because the concept of being an athlete
seems to be something thatreally resonated with you, Sher.
That's what I'm hearing.
Yes.
Always being the kid that I'm athletic,but I never had the confidence to
join a team or go out for sports.
So I never thought ofmyself as an athlete.
(05:33):
And so pickleball hasbeen really empowering.
What's interesting is just even using thatterm will potentially start
percolating through other things.
Because for instance, an athlete ismore likely to warm up before they play.
An athlete is more likely to stretcha little bit after they play.
An athlete is more likely tohydrate before a big day of...
Whatever.The things that athletes do.
(05:55):
And so now all of a suddenyou're like, wait a minute, I'm supposed
to do this because I'm an athlete.
So then it starts percolatingthroughout the parts.
That's super cool.Awesome.
Yeah, it's really cool.
I love the words, and I'm going toput you guys on the spot for a second.
Because this is a question that we ask ourstudents, which is,
and I'll give you guys a second to thinkabout it because I'll probably ramble on
about something for a second, but thinkabout what's your one-word
(06:18):
relationship with pickleball?
What is the one-word that definesyour relationship with pickleball?
If you're ready, you can answer.
If you need a minute, wink at meand I'll keep about something.
Actually, the word thatcomes for me is presence.
I listen to most of them, but one of themthat you talk about is even focusing so
(06:43):
much on the pickleball that yousee the holes of the pickleball.
I mean, actually, you can almostfeel one with that ball in it.
No matter where it goes,you're ready for it.
That only happens if we arepresent in that very moment.
I try to carry that into my life, too.
Not as well, and not always wellon the pickleball court either.
But that's the word that comes for me.
(07:05):
It's interesting because you can, and I'mgoing to get you, Sher, in a second, but
it's interesting how youcan think about using...
I like to think about pickleball, and thisis something that's fairly recent for me
in terms of this thought process, but I'vebeen thinking about pickleball a lot as a
canvas.
Pickleball itself is fine.It's great.
You go out there, hit the ball, but it'smore than about the plastic ball
(07:26):
and the paddle and whatever.
It's a canvas for ourselves.
We get to work on ourselves physically,mentally, emotionally, spiritually
on the pickleball court.
What's interesting about presence isthis idea, it's almost like a meditation.
It becomes like a meditation for you.
If you approach it that way,super healthy for you,
you're going to be fine with the results,and you're going to get all the benefits
(07:49):
from it, plus the additional benefit ofthe present's practice, which is awesome.
All right, Sher, what you got?You got a word?
I got a word.It's joy.
Laying in bed the night before, I'm soexcited knowing I have a
pickleball game the next day.
I wake up, I jump out of bed,go to my pickleball game.
(08:11):
I love the community.
Even if I don't know the people I'mplaying, I'm excited to meet new people.
And I'm joy with what my body is goingto do, what's going to happen that day.
I love it.
The important thing about the reason Iasked the question is, and we asked the
question of our students, is thatThat word, it's your word, right?
(08:32):
You came up with it.I didn't come up with it.
I didn't even suggest it.You guys came up with it.
That word becomes youall's quid pro quo when you go play.
Basically, results don't matterbecause that's not why you went to play.
You guys didn't say, I play pickle.
My one more relationship is, kick an asswhen I play pickleball or winning
every game when I play pickleball.
(08:54):
If presence for share and joy for Shelley,then you're good to The
rest doesn't matter.You went 0-8 today.
Okay, cool.I got to see my friends.
I got pitzled.I got pitzled.
Yeah.It is what it is.
You're playing the greatest sporton the planet from my perspective.
Yeah.Awesome stuff.
(09:17):
Share with us a littlebit, if you don't mind.
Was there something that happened alongyour pickleball journey that was either an
eye-opening moment for you from the mentalside or something, some challenge that you
faced that was that you werelike, Man, this is tough.
It could be how you feltafter a losing session.
(09:37):
It can be an experience with a player whodidn't behave the way that we
would like players to behave.
Whatever stuff that jumps out to you thatwas a thing that happened that
changed maybe a little bit of thetrajectory on your pickleball journey?
Yeah, I'm very relationship-oriented.
If I'm playing with somebody for whom WhenI'm winning is the end-all be-all,
(10:02):
I have a hard time with that.
In fact, I'll start out bysaying, I play this for fun.
I do try to win.I try to do my best.
But if I don't win, no big deal.
If I'm playing with somebody for whom thatis a big deal, the pressure I feel to
support them in their goal towin is pretty tricky for me.
(10:24):
I'm an empath, so I'mpicking up, so, Sher.
I'm picking up theiranxiety and yada, yada.
The more I can stay in my own zone, whichis important in my life, too, to not just
be absorbing everybody else's thoughts andfeelings and taking them on as
mine, just stay in that moment.
So I think that might be why presence issuch an important word for me,
(10:45):
that I stay in my lane, I stay in my mind,I stay in my heart, do the best I
can, and have fun in the process.
Yeah, that's interesting.
And then I thinkthat's something that's greatly
undervalued, I would say, in terms of justeven performance as an athlete, as a
player, is the energybetween partners on the doubles court.
(11:11):
It's so impactful becauseI have the same experience.
I've gotten to a place in my life where Ilove playing pickleball, but I don't
go play pickleball to be stressed.
Exactly.
Then don't call me.
That's going to be the case.
I'll tell you guys a quick side story, andthen I'm going to get
(11:32):
to you, Shelly, on it.
But a quick side story is,I go to Nationals in '23.
It was in Dallas, the PPA Nationals thing.
I like going to tournaments primarilybecause I get to see the senior pro
players who I don't get to see on aregular basis because
they're all over the country.To me, I view it as an open play to me.
I get to go and say hi to themand play a couple of games.
(11:52):
Whatever happens, happens.I'm fine.
But I'm looking around and I'm seeing allmy friends and other folks that I know,
they look miserable.
Absolutely miserable.
The faces and the thing and the whatever.
I actually wrote a piece about it.
I'm like, Why did you go to National?
(12:15):
You paid money to go there.
You had to travel, you had to take timeaway, you had to register,
you had to be upset.
I'm like, wow.
We're all 50 plus.
I wish 20-year-olds could also do it,but as 50 plus, we're like, come on.
Anyway, I find that fascinating, thewin-it-all-cost a thing.
(12:38):
Anyway, sorry.Cheli, go ahead.
Share with us something,if you don't mind.
Where I'm at in my pickleballjourney is, like I said, I love it.
The first time I'm an athlete,I love doing tournaments.
It's so fun, so empowering.
But I'm starting to develop this fearthat I'm not going to get any better.
What if I don't keep gettingas good as my partner?
(12:59):
And then what if my partner doesn't wantto be my partner anymore
because I'm not getting better?
And so I'm thinkingabout, what do I do with that?
Where do I turn?
What do I do to get to get better.
Right now, there's folks listening tothe podcast and you just touch a nerve.
(13:19):
You put a hot poker on a nerve becausegetting left behind or that is a
super stressful feeling for players.
I don't want to get left behind.
For yours, it's morespecific, more micro, because yours is
specific to a one partnership ina tournament, which is important.
For others, it might just be like, I'mgoing to be left behind in this group.
(13:39):
I'm not going to give outit to this group anymore.
That's a difficult It's difficult toanswer it in terms of,
what do I do to keep up?
Because that's almostimpossible to exactly do.
There's numerous reasons for that.
Remember, it could also go the other way.
Now, I'm not saying that you woulddump your partner, but it happens, where
(14:04):
if there'snot a congruence of objectives, and that's
what I think I would focus on for you andyour partner, is why are you
guys playing tournaments?
If you guys are playing tournaments, let'ssay your partner is in the same place you
are mentally, maybeyour partner has better thirds and
you have better volleys, whatever.
(14:25):
But if your partner is going to thetournament to enjoy Enjoy being with
Shelley, enjoy the competition, enjoy thecamaraderie, then that would remove
some of your stress about, Oh, my God, mythird shots are at a 62% rate, and they
need to be at a 67% rate in order forthis partner to want to play with me.
Maybe have a conversation with yourpartner about what their interests are.
(14:48):
Then I would suggest that the...
Let's assume that your partner, andobviously, it's
very hypothetical, but let's assume thatyour partner is like, I
want to win at all costs.
I need to get gold medals,and I'm going to keep going.
Then that will inform your decisionmaking in terms of what you want to do.
If that's consistent with what you want,it doesn't sound like it's
consistent with what you want anyway.
(15:09):
That would tell you some information thatyou go, Okay, and that's
if you want the best for your partner, yousay, I'll tell you, what I did recently
was I got a friend ofmine here in Tampa, of ours, me and my
wife, very good pickleball players, beenworking on our game a lot, hasn't really
broken through the senior pro-ranks yet.
I I think she's under-thinking how goodshe is in terms of what
(15:34):
she can get as a partner.
But anyway, she asked me if Iwould play with her in the US Open.
I had no plans of playing in the US Openthis year because we got too much stuff
going on and we're not going down therefor the whole week like
we have done in the past.
I had a conversation with her andI said, Chris, here's the thing.
I want to be up front.
I'm not drilling right now.
I'm not hardly playing.
I play once a week on average of that, 1.
(15:56):
2 times a week or somethinglike that, at most.
You You can get a better partner thanme if you want to give yourself the
best chance to go deep in the draw.I'll do my best.
I'm going to go out there, I'm going togive it my all, but I got to be realistic.
We had an open conversation about it, andher interest is
to work on her strategy, which I am verygood at in game strategy, and I'm
(16:19):
a very good mixed doubles player.
That'll be good for her, I think.
She knows I'll give it my all, and sheknows I'll be a supportive partner.
I do offer some characteristics that arebeneficial, but I am not the best
option for going deep in a tournament.
I have a puncher's chance,if you know what I'm saying.
Me and my partners have beaten very goodteams, and we've competed against
(16:42):
other very good teams very closely.
But sometimes I run out of energy orthings break down because
I'm not doing them as often.
I would have a conversation, Sher, withyour partner before I put all that
burden on myself in terms of...
I mean, I would because I I think rightnow, basically, you're projecting a little
(17:02):
bit about what you're thinking to yourpartner instead of talking to your
partner and just have the conversation.
The other thing I would suggest, just bigpicture improvement for anybody listening
and for you guys as well,if this interests you.
The numbering systemworks against us in our improvement
journey because the jumps are pretty big.
(17:25):
When you talk about, I'm a 3-0 and I'mgoing to go to 3-5, or I'm a 3-5 going
to 4-0, those are humongous jumps.
It is better to think about it in terms ofI'm going from
3-5-5 to 3-6-2, or something like that.
Because I would suggest you if youhypothetically knew that team A was a 3.
(17:47):
7 team, 3.
7, and team B was legit 3.
6 team, if we can know that certainly.
In that match, the team A, the 3.
7 team wins like 11-2.
It's not close.
So the difference between 3.7 and 3.
6 is night and day.
And the same thing with 3-8and 3-7, and 3-6 and 3-5.
(18:07):
Do you see what I'm saying?
So you got to bring itdown a little bit to...
Because I think too many playersare like, I need to become a 4-0.
And you're like, Well, legit 4-0,legit 4-0, it should be hard.
Because legit 4-0 is a legit 4-0.
The term that I coinedand I use is benchmark.
(18:30):
So a benchmark 4.0 player is a standard bearer.
They're a standard bearer for pickleball.
They know how to playpickleball amazingly well.
The reason they don't play 4.
5 is because of some offensiveweapons, some other things.
But they play every facetof the game at a good 4.
0, benchmark 4.0 player.
So that's a standard bearer.You know what I mean?
(18:50):
I think we throw these numbers aroundlike they're like, no big deal.
3.5 is an amazing level.
3.5 is solid play.
Most rec play is not 3-5 play,not good 3-5 play.
You know what I mean?
They call themselves3-5, but just not really.
That's the other thing, too.
It's like these number things, they'redeceiving me because it's like
players are like, I need to be a 4-0.
I'm like, Forget about the number.
(19:13):
If you know how to play 4-0, you'll play4-0 when you're out there on the court.
Whatever your number is, you'regoing to play like a 4-0 player.
If your number is 4-0, but you're playinglike a 3-3, you're still
going to play like a 3-3.The number is not going to help you.
But your thing, specifically, big picture,the number thing or like that, just be
careful with that becausethose gaps are huge.
3, 5, 4, 0, 3, 0, whatever,wherever you're at.
(19:35):
Then on the partner, I would justhave a conversation with your partner.
My guess is, based on whatyou've described as your interest, it
sounds like you having fun at tournaments.
You're having fun at tournaments, thattells me that your partner is having fun
at tournaments, which tells me that yourpartner is probably in
the same place you are.You just need to have a conversation.
So you're like, Oh, cool.
(19:56):
I can relax now.
Anyway, that would be mysuggestion on that front.
And then obviously, keep working on yourgame and keep growing
the way you want to grow.
And one other piece I'll tell you guys andanybody listening is the journey,
there's no endpoint.
And that's the thing that's trickybecause what players think about,
and this is the way we explain it.
(20:16):
So we go, sowhere you're standing right now as a
pickleball player, wherever you're at.
So you're imagining a player,call it six months from now.
So you want to be that player, the one sixmonths from that can do all
these things and all this stuff.
Let's fast forward for a second.
So now, six months from now, whatdo you think is going to happen?
(20:38):
You're going to want to be the player.Exactly.
You're never satisfied.
If you're always looking ahead at the nextplayer, at the next version of yourself,
you don't enjoy this player,and you don't enjoy these steps.
You really rob yourself because the nextplayer is going to want to be the
next player, and it never ends.
And so you lose.
But it actually works against youbecause you lose these moments
(21:00):
that you should treasure.
You should love the little step that youtook yesterday and the one day you're
going to take tomorrow and thesilly thing you're going to do the next
day to take a step back, and thenyou take another step forward.
You should enjoy all of those.
They're like the present thingthat Shera was talking about.
Is that your phone?
Does that mean time's up?Timer.
No, it's not a Timer.
You can give me a Timer.But I'm going to tell you what it was.
(21:21):
It was my wife calling me.
She's the only one that bypassesmy phone, but it's fine.
That's why at the beginning of thepodcast, there's a phone ringing because
my wife called during thepodcast and I kept it in.
That's the story.Anyway, Sher, tell me the thing.
It's okay if you want to take that call.
No, it's fine.I'll call her back.
I was just saying yourepisode, Are We There Yet?
(21:42):
You go into detail aboutthat whole concept.
I loved that.
It's like it's the journeyand who we are now.
Yeah, good on you.I love that.
Yeah.
I think a lot of times it'sjust a perspective thing.
I'm not telling you guys anything thatwasn't already there.
It's just you maybe weren't seeing it.
It's like lifting a blanket or something.
You're like, Look, it's right there.You're like, Oh, shit.
(22:03):
Yeah, I get it.I'm not teaching you guys anything.
I'm just showing you something that'salready present, which
a lot of times is the work.
Anyway, all right, guys.
Let me ask you a question here.
Players out there,I love the fact that I listen to
pickleball Therapy, but I reallyappreciate the work that you guys are
doing to continue to,not continue to, but to share, to share
(22:26):
stories from yourselves and fromother players, sharing about yourself.
Shera, I appreciate you sharing, andShera, you too, but sharing about your
journeys, so that other players out theredon't think that they're the only ones
that have gone through life changes andthen pickleball has been good for them.
It's so helpful to hear thatinformation from you and from
(22:46):
your guests on the podcast.
So I certainly would encourage ourlisteners to check you guys out.
What's the best way forthem to find you guys?
Lifelessons from pickleballpodcast.Com.
Then the other thing is,they You guys are on Apple, Spotify,
wherever there are podcasts, right?
Everything, and YouTube.
And YouTube, so you can type inLife Lessons from Pickleball, right?
(23:08):
Yeah.Okay.
Life Lessons from Pickleball.
In your podcast feed, the same place youlisten to this podcast,
unless you're on our platform.
So ladies, it was a pleasure chatting withyou and getting to know you guys better.
I appreciate everything you guys aredoing and keep putting up the good work.
Tony, you're a hoot.Thank you so much.
Thank you.
(23:29):
The check's in the mail, I swear.
We've already taught it so much.Thanks, guys.
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