March 18, 2025 • 49 mins
We had the pleasure of featuring a pro pickleball player, Richard Livornese Jr., in this special episode. It will be interesting to listen to the discussion, not just about the mechanics of the sport, but the mental journey that accompanies it.
Richard shares insights about his pickleball journey which began four years ago during the COVID pandemic. Despite his achievements, Richard, like many of us, faced moments of doubt and frustration.
In this episode he discusses the mental challenges he faced, including the pressure of expectations and the pursuit of success in pickleball.
His turning point came in 2023 after a series of unexpected losses. This led him to explore stoicism and mental resilience, which transformed his approach to the game—and life.
Whether you're a seasoned player or just starting your pickleball journey, there are valuable takeaways from Richard’s experience.
If you're curious about exploring Stoicism further, Richard and I discussed a few resources that might interest you:
- Podcast: "Stoicism on Fire" offers digestible insights into Stoic philosophy and how it can be applied to modern life.
- Book: "The Untethered Soul" by Michael Singer, although not strictly Stoic, provides valuable guidance on understanding your inner thoughts and achieving emotional freedom.
Check out Richard Livornese, Jr. on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richard_pickleball/ and YouTube
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello, and welcome to pickleball Therapy,the podcast dedicated to your pickleball
improvement with a mind at its center.
My name is Tony Roig.
I am the host of your podcast.
This is a special episode of the podcast.
It's an interview that I had theopportunity to speak with
Richard Livornese, who's a propickleball player on a fantastic journey.
(00:27):
My initial intent was to just talk to himabout competition and dealing with
adversity, the normal things you wouldthink about if you're
speaking with a pro player.
Come to find out when we started chattingthat Richard has been on a deep dive
mental journey of his own,which was fantastic.
We were able to talk aboutdifferent tools that he uses, different
(00:50):
challenges that he's faced, and how he'sovercome them through
his own mental journey.
I think you're going to find thisinterview really fascinating.
It's a little bit longer of an episodethan normal because the
content was just there.
We could frankly gone twoor three times as long.
So it's a little bit longer of a podcast.
You're going to need about 45minutes to get through this one.
And there may be a little bit ofdog sound in the background.
(01:13):
I don't know, but Anita and Olivia werehanging out in the
hallway doing their thing.
So I apologize for that, but I don't thinkit'll interrupt your
enjoyment of the podcast.
Without further ado, let's dive straightin and listen to Richard's ideas
on the mental part of Picaball.
Richard, it's great tohave you on the podcast.
I appreciate you making the timeto join us in Picaball Therapy.
Pleasure to be here.Yeah, really excited to talk with you.
(01:36):
Awesome.
Before we started recording, you and I hada conversation about your journey as a
pickleball player and specifically yourmental journey Before we dive into that,
let's just get to know you a little bitfor our audience in terms
of when you got into pickleball, who gotyou into pickleball, things like that.
And then we'll dive into, I think for thelisteners, it's going to be a really
(01:56):
interesting ride about somestoicism ideas and some ideas that you've
come across that have helpedyou along your journey.
So tell everybody alittle bit about yourself.
Yeah.So my name is Richard Livornese.
I'm 23.
I started playing pickleball whenI was 19, so about four years ago.
I got into it because itwas just the beginning of...
(02:17):
It was COVID, and I was onvacation with my family.
And the place we were hada pickleball tournament.
I had no idea what it was.
I've never played a racquet sport,so a unique background for me.
I played football and lacrosse growingup and then lacrosse in college.
So we were out there and my unclewas like, we should just play.
It'll be fun.And I played with my dad and we won.
(02:41):
And it was like a local fun thing.
We were just runningaround hitting the ball.
We were terrible.And it was so much fun.
So then I came back.
I was home from college for COVID,and the town I was in started a club.
So my dad joined, and while I was homefrom college, and when I came home, I
continued to go and play And itwasn't that serious for a while.
(03:01):
And then in 2021, October, Ireally started playing a lot.
So it's been a little over three yearssince I started playing seriously.
And I rose through the rank, startingfrom your solid 3-0 all the way up.
I started winning localtournaments at 4-5 and 5-0.
And I met some guysmy age who actually run the Pickleball
(03:23):
Clinic, which is an online forum.
And they run something in NewJersey called Montclair Pickleball.
They do clinics and camps.
So I started working with them.
We all started together,and they were my age.
So we started on some bigger tournamentsjust for fun, and we started doing better.
And then, yes, I just kept playing and Idecided at some point I was going
to try to play some pro stuff.
And then in the start of 2022, the end of2022, I started playing pro tournaments.
(03:50):
So I played two that year, got destroyed.
I think I went one in six at onetournament, maybe two in six at another.
So we were really on to come up.
And then And starting in 2023,I really started playing pro.
I played every tournament on theAPP and four or five PPAs that year.
And then in 2024, I playedevery APP and four or five PPAs.
(04:12):
So it was a good year.And I've done pretty well.
I'm ranked inside the top 10 on the APP.
I've had some good PPA wins.
So I'm really just trying to get better,just like all you guys, I love playing.
I do it all the time.
I think I played five hours ofpickleball today, and it's only 4: 49.
So So I love pickleball,love playing, love teaching.
(04:32):
I make a lot of content.
I just love the community and the people.
So I try to be as involved aspossible in as many ways as I can.
Awesome, Richard.
Richard and I, this is the first time heand I meet, but I've heard great things
about him from our team, andthat's our team member, Emily.
Thanks for putting thistogether and connecting us.
But in terms of your place in pickleballand what I've heard from other players and
(04:57):
things like that, the way you carryyourself, It's great to have you as part
of our community as well and to have yoube a great spokesperson for the sport.
We have a lot to cover on the mental side,so I'd like to just dive right
into it if we can, Richard.
Can you talk us through when you Youtold me I could ask these questions.
I'm going to ask them.
So you suffered a loss in 2023, is whatyou told me, and that's what
(05:21):
really started your path.
Let's start from there and explain toeverybody, because everybody out here
who's listening has had, maybe not at abig pro tournament, but they've all had a
loss or a series of losses that puts themon that like, what am
I doing in this thing?Let's talk us through that.
I don't think it's very different being apro or an amateur when
it comes to this stuff.
When I started playingpickleball, it was fun.
(05:44):
And then that's the truth.I think that's why it's so addicting.
It's just so dang fun.
So I was having a blast, and I startedplaying, and I started doing
well, and I was having success.
And I started attachingvalue to success over time.
You start winning and doing And I'mwinning a lot of local stuff and whatever.
And then I'm startingto win some pro matches.
And the guy I work with now, we call itthe I'll be happy if or
(06:09):
I'll be happy when struggle.
And so I started having that.
And I didn't realize it was a problembecause as long as you just
keep getting better, it's fine.
So I win a 5-0, okay, great.
Now I set a new goal.
So now I'll be happy when I become a 5-5.Okay, I do that.
I'll be happy when I win a pro match.Okay, do that.
I'll be happy when I win a pro meta.
Okay, do And suddenly, you stop havingthat success because there's an end.
(06:35):
Even Ben Jones, what would his goal be?
Triple crown every tournament.
And if he doesn't do that, if you attachyour worth to something like that,
eventually it catches up to you.
And I started having that in 2023.
So I won my first next Gen in 2023, and Igot a silver medal in
2023 over the summer.
And I was on this high.
(06:56):
I was like, Oh, I'm so great, whatever.
And then I couldn't I lostsome first round matches.
And the rest of the summer, I'm juststruggling, and I'm just not
having the success that I was.
And I had moved my goalpost.
So now that I had won thatmedal, I'm expecting medals.
And that's just not happening.So I'm not winning.
And the truth is, evennow, that doesn't happen.
(07:16):
I've been trying at thisfor another two years.
I'm not winning medals every tournament.
There's almost nobody doing that.
The truth is, there's so manytalented players, and not just at pro.
The 4-0 level has risen so much.
4-0s now would destroyme when I was a 4-0.
Five Myvos now are way better than I was.
The truth is every level isgetting more competitive.
I think this catches up to all of us.
(07:37):
It caught up to me.
I told Tony, I justremember the exact moment.
It was Chicago, 2023.
I was playing with a really good player.
I set these unreasonable expectationsbecause to me, I think any expectations
are unreasonable becauseyou can't control it.
I set these expectations and I did notachieve them, lost a bad match, then
(07:59):
lost another bad match to go out.
And I remember sitting down under a treeand I was teary-eye, and I just
remember, I haven't been having fun.
So not enjoying being here.I was like, I want to go home.
I was like, maybe pick a ball for me.
And I remember I called my dad, and hewas like, just give Coach Bill a call.
So for reference, Coach Bill is a coach Ihad in high school for football and
(08:23):
lacrosse, and he was theperfect definition of a stoic.
And I didn't understand it when I was inhigh school because I don't think high
school students really, really do.
But everything he would say, talk aboutbeing present, not letting the wins affect
you, not letting the losses affect you,talking about how when the scoreboard
turns off, the game's over.
Win or lose, it doesn't matter.
And we all, literally, wewere like, That's just BS.
(08:46):
That's not true.
We all just want to win, win, win,
win, win person in the world.
That was something I took joy in.
And it caught up to me.
And so I'm very frustrated and angry.
(09:07):
And I called him and he put meon to some stuff to listen to.
It's this guy named Michael Singer.
It's some books, a lot of stuff.
And it's like an...
I would call it an introduction tospirituality and stoicism
would be the idea.And I didn't know that.
He didn't tell me that or whatever.
We just talked and he was like, ifyou want to improve this, here are some
things to look at that will helpyou reprioritize.
(09:30):
To get back to having fun.And I got hooked and I've been hooked.
And since then, it's beenover a year and a half.
It's my life.
It's more important to me than pickleball.
And saying that makes me happy.
And maybe it's not always true.
I think sometimes in my brain, I still go,pickleball is the most important thing.
But I think a lot of the time it is truebecause it's about my
(09:51):
happiness, my joy, all that.
So that was how I started down the path,and it's taken me a long, long way.
So Awesome.Thanks, Richard, for sharing that.
I have a couple of notes hereI'm going to come back to.
Actually, it's interesting because youjust said something that
resonated with me because I've been onmy journey about four years or so now.
I actually started this podcast as part ofmy personal journey, meaning when I first
(10:17):
started the podcast, Ibasically, I was open about it.
I said, I hope this podcast helpseverybody who wants to listen to this,
but I'm going to make it anyway becauseI'm making it for me and my journey, and
then hopefully you comealong for the ride.
But But what you said is this...
It's normal to...And I'm going to...
(10:37):
Backsliding is too big of a term, butI can't think of another one right now.
But basically, the old habit pops insteadof because I played, and it wasn't a
tournament, I just playedsocially yesterday.
And two things happened that one was I wasgetting on myself unrealistically for
hitting balls into the net when Ihaven't practiced or really played much.
And it just doesn't endas a social game anyway.
And then the second thing was theThe score was affecting how I felt.
(11:01):
When we were up big, I was relaxed.
When it was tight or we were behind, thenI was more tense, which is contrary to
what I understand is how Ishould be when I'm out there.
But what I realized was I didn't prepare.
And that's one of the things I've beenfocusing on now in my podcast and stuff,
this podcast istrying to recommend that players take
(11:23):
moments to get themselves ready, becauseonce you're in the barrel,
once you're inside the barrel andthings are happening, things get nutty.
But anyway, so that was interesting.
But let me take you up one thing.
I just want to part-playall that for one second.
Do it.
Yeah, so the coach I worked with, sohe's been doing this for like 35 years.
(11:44):
He was a college football star,and he had some struggles.
And he, like you said, huge backslide.
His story, someday, he'san amazing guy to talk to.
But he's been on this for a long time.And that's always...
He has a lot of things.
He says one And one of the things islike, backsliding, like going out on the
courts, like having a drinkif you're an alcoholic.
(12:05):
It's like, like you said, the firsttime, you're much more resistant.
But every time after that, Iknow that to be true for me.
The first time I get upset on court,I have more of a barrier.
But every time after that, it's so hard.
And by the time you've been upset,you've been like, why did I miss that?
Why did I miss that?
The next time it happens,you're off the rocker.
(12:25):
And we call it like, it'slike losing our center.
So Once you are off your center,it's very hard to climb back on.
So what usually ends up happening, and itstill happens to me, is I said at the last
tournament, I totally lost my centerone day, and it took me a while.
There was nothing I could do.
I mean, probably there was,but there's something I did.
And at some point, I took a deepbreath, and I was like, Okay, it's over.
(12:47):
I'm back.Whatever.
But the thing he said is, As the journeyprogresses, and I know it to be true,
you're a little further along thanI am, and he's a lot further along.
He said, The amount of times it happensdecreases, and the length, you
lose your center decreases.
So he's like, in the beginning, and I knowwhen I would lose a match, it was like
hours, days, sometimes beingfrustrated about it to now very short.
(13:11):
I mean, I would say usually like15 minutes or less for me, maybe.
If I I frustrated at all, it's muchshorter because very quickly my brain's...
Again, you're rewiring your brain.
That's really what we're doing here.
And very quickly your brain isreminding you like, hey, it's nice out.
You're still in a pickleball tournament.
This is a pretty good day.
I mean, do you really want to justI sit around and be angry all day?
I don't know.
(13:32):
Sorry.
No, it's interesting because Iwrote a piece and I did a podcast.
So I went to the...
I've gone to the last two nationals.
I never gone to a national before.
I played the US Open because I washere in Florida But not the nationals.
You can play nationalsor nationals, nationals?
The USA Pickup Ball National.
So the one in Dallas in'23 and then the '24.
(13:54):
Arizona.Yeah.
So I got Tanner, the guy Imentioned, Tanner Picklebron.
We got bronze in men's doublesat Nationals last year.
Cool.That's awesome.
It was a good...It was a lucky...
Like I said, that's the firsttime I've ever played nationals.
It was an amazing atmosphere.
So many people.I thought it...
Amazing.I never had such a cool experience.
I agree.Nationals, Those are big tournaments.
(14:15):
But in '23, I'm at Nationals inDallas, and I'm playing senior pro.
One of the things that I like abouttournaments is it allows me to see players
who I don't get to see becausethey're all over the country.
And so I go to the tournament and I justlike, listen, I go out
there, I do my best.
I play senior pro, but I'mnot training all the time.
I don't work at the game the way you wouldwork at the game based on your
(14:38):
dedication to what you're trying to do.
I'm fine with it.
I go out there, I do my thing.
I got punchers chances in these games.I do the best I can.
I play as hard as I can.
But for me, it's more just to go and seeeverybody and shake hands and
hug them and all that stuff.
But there was a moment therewhere I'm looking around.
There was this area where you look aroundall these courts, and I'm looking up and
down the courts, seeing allmy friends and acquaintances playing,
(15:01):
and they're miserable.
I mean, absolutely miserable, up and down.
It wasn't like it was the most...
Not all of them, most of them.
To me, it's even sillier becauseI'm not saying you should get down.
You shouldn't.No.
But this is for you, I believeit's like a career thing.
(15:22):
It's like a thing...For them, they're all 50 over.
They're all like, Why did you go toNationals to have a bad
time, to be stressed out.
Go do something else.
Stay at home.Do some gardening.
A hundred %.
I've said for a while, I thinkthis is my gimmick to sell it.
Because I said the truth is, I'll try andget people on this path any way I can.
(15:46):
The truth is, and I say all this to pros,I was like,
you want to know how to be better thanpeople the quickest way possible,
change your mental game.
The pro game, like you said, the pro gameis the senior pro game amplified Because
like you said, you have people that feelthe same way plus external pressure.
So they are creating internal pressure,but people are like, hey, if I don't do
(16:08):
this, I might lose mysponsorship, whatever it is.
And the truth is, it's all BS because nomatter how bad you want it, you
can't control if you win or lose.
You can put in as much effort and havethe right attitude, but I can want it.
I told my friend this, and it took him acouple of weeks, and he came back to me.
He was like, Yeah, I get it now.
But I said, If you took 100 peopleand you designed the ultimate practice
(16:30):
plan, and you guys all practiceyour butts off 15 hours a day.
I mean, you just dedicate your life to it.
Only one of you will be the best,and it probably won't be you.
That's the truth.
The idea that everyone's just like, Justoutwork them, I actually think that's...
Put the work in 100%, you have to.That's a requirement.
(16:51):
But you want to know the biggestway to get ahead, it's this stuff.
And to me, that was howI got involved in this.
I thought it was a gimmicky,Hey, it'll help me get better, so I'll
take a couple of steps down the path.
I'm never going to really believe it.
I want to win.I'm competitive.
That's what I care about.
But what happened is over time, yourealize, wow, there
are much bigger things.So it's funny.
(17:13):
That was a big perspectiveYou're talking about perspective.
A big perspective shift for me going fromwhen I started on this, it was
just to get better at pickleball.
Now, being better atpickleball is a byproduct.
It's not the goal.
I said, pickleball to me now has become atool where it's so emotionally charged all
the time that I just get to practice themental stuff more than everyone else does.
(17:35):
I talk to my parents about this.
They have some stuff that they're workingand stuff, so they have some stuff
that they get angry or upset about.
But it's a couple of times a week,maybe, maybe once a week, maybe less.
I have it a couple of times a day.
I go out to drill, things arenot going to go the way I plan.
They never do.Every day, I get to work on this.
And I said, that's honestly the reason whyI don't think I can go back to trying to
do a 9 (17:56):
00 to 5
grow every every day.
That's what pickleballbrings me more than anything.
And obviously, I'mpursuing the best I can be.
I said, that's my goal this year,to become the best Richard I can.
I'm not trying to beat Ben Jones.
Maybe I can.I'd be happy to.
I'd love to.That'd be awesome.
But if that's in the cards forme, that's in the cards for me.
If it's not, it's not.
(18:17):
I know I can become a better version ofmyself on the court, one, mentally,
two, physically, and three, emotionally.
So that's what I'm working for.
But that is a huge thingI notice all the time.
The mental game across theboard is weak, it's angry.
And it may not be...
And weak doesn'tnecessarily mean just tense.
It can be like you said, Iconsider a weak mental game.
(18:38):
I mean, if you're walking off the courtafter a loss, playing in beautiful
California, and you're just miserablebecause you lost, for the rest
of the trip, that's weak to me.Because I don't know.
I just remember talking to mymom about this a long time ago.
And when I was younger, I remember wetalked and she had told me,
Oh, I just want to get through the week.
And I remember that for a while.
And at some point, I talked to herrecently about it and I was like, it is
(19:01):
funny, though, becauseyou're trying to skip 75 % of your life to
get to the 25 % that you'reputting expectations on.
You're expecting this tosuck and this to be amazing.
Twofold.
One, this will never liveup to your expectations.
Two, You're fast forwardingthrough your life.
So for me now, I don't lookforward to the tournaments anymore.
I do.
(19:21):
I'm excited to go to them, but I'mworking on being excited every day.
I got to play today.It's an awesome day.
Got to talk to somebody andhelp my mental the game.
And what you said, the one other thing Iwanted to key on was the thing Coach Bill
told me, which I now believe 100 % is thebest way to work on this is
to talk to people about it.
You can sit in your inner mind all day,but when you talk to other people and they
(19:42):
give you their perspective andtheir stories, and that helps.
I mean, that's helped me so much.
I still talk to him all the time.
I call him at the last tournament, noteven about after the loss, whatever.
I just called him and we just chatted,and he gave me some new perspective.
I gave him some new stuff.
And I think the most beautiful thing aboutthis is it It's probably
been given to you for free.
(20:02):
It was given to me for free.
So I'm just trying to give itaway, as many people as I can.
I get to be around a lotof the young players here.
So I talk to them about it.
Anyone that asks, I'mhappy to talk to about it.
And if I can help them, great.That'd be awesome.
If I could help more people be happy andcontent and enjoy what they're doing,
happy to do it.So it's fun.
And I would say this.
I agree with you that I think it'sdifficult for a high schooler
(20:24):
to pick up on some of themore nuanced pieces of this.
But I grew up in tennis, right?
And I didn't play high school tennis, butwhen I was a young boy, I
played competitive tennis.We traveled.
I played tournaments, all that stuff.
What I realized wasnow, what I realized now is, I spent hours
on the court fine-tuning forehandserve, volleys, whatever.
(20:48):
No time was spent on mental.
And what you said is 100% true.
I don't know if you probably know the YogiBerra quote, but the Yogi Berra quote
was, Base is 90% mental and 50 %.
The rest, the other 50 % is whatever.
And so it's true.
I'll tell you a quick side thing.
(21:13):
I'm a big proponent of...
Not proponent, that's not...I'm a student of the game.
One area where I think pros are prettybad at, I don't mean you, right?
I just mean in general, time out.
Time out usage is awful for most pros.
Like waiting until it's 10 (21:27):
03 When I'm calling a time out, it's
like- I've talked to people.
It's like admitting your fail.I guess.
It's weird.
Analee Waters is the besttimeout call in the game.
And then she plays with Ben,who hates calling timeouts.
Right, but that's the point.
But this is the thing, right?
(21:48):
I'll tell you where I'm at with it.
Because I used to be like, Whydid Ben and Colin don't call?
It was crazy to me, right?
Why don't they call timeouts?But you know what I realized?
Ben is always in a timeout, literally.
He is so chill betweenone and the next rally.
He's basically like an auto time out.
He has, I think, thecalmest between the alleys.
(22:10):
I think he also has a unique tool.
He said this a while ago.
I remember it was probably a year ortwo ago, which I actually think...
So I guess for him, it's alittle bit of an exception.
But he said, he and Colin, especially,game plan better than most people.
So he's like, I also, even if I'm a littlefrustrated, he goes, I don't really want
to give my opponentsmore time to game plan.
He goes, We know what we're going to do.
(22:31):
They probably don't know as well.
So to give them more time to figure outa strategy and stuff may not make sense.
But again, across the board, something Isee all the time, especially when now a
lot of coaches playersare helping other players.
We're on the sideline watching our friendlose two, three points in
a row and we're like this.It's like, one, one.
It's always one more.
There's like five and you're like, what?They win it.
(22:53):
They're like, See, I didn't need it.
I'm like, that's not really the point.It wasn't about it.
It's about the situation.
And people have asked me that, what'sIt's the best time to call a time out.
I said it's fluid.
It's this, not the score.
I've called timeouts, Richard.
I've called timeouts at one-onebecause me and my partner...
(23:14):
Well, me and my partner had a disagreementand he was pissed at me about something.
I'll call time out.We're not going to play like that, right?
So we just come off thecourt, we work it out.
I've called timeouts at 3 (23:22):
00, 4
missing a dink and she'stalking to herself.
And in case you're listening and you wanthow to do timeouts, I recommend
doing timeouts for yourself.
Don't be like, I call the time out,Richard, because I saw you were a mess.
I'm going to call a timeout.
I call a timeout, I'm like, Ijust got something in my eye.
I need some water.I don't know.
I'm trying to get off the score becausethis is a disaster waiting to happen.
(23:45):
But anyway, but going back to Ben, Ithink, again, I've come around on Ben not
calling time out because I justthink he's in a constant state.
But let me tee this up for a minute.
You're good on time, Richard.
We're going a little bit longer than I hadsaid to you, but if you
have a couple more minutes.I'm good.
Yeah, I'm That's awesome.
If you're listening to this podcast,I highly recommend you stick around.
I know we're going a little longer thannormal, but I
(24:06):
didn't realize we're going to have atreasure trove of cool
information to chat about here.
You mentioned expectations, and Ithink that's an area that is super...
It creeps up on you because Ithink all players are like this.
You start playing,you got no expectations, you just go out
there, you have fun, and it's unbridled.
Then maybe you win a couple...
(24:27):
You're not even playing tournaments.
You start winning some games.
And you're like, so now players arelooking at you like you're one of them
mid-level or better players in that court.
And then all of a sudden it becomes like,Shit, I can't lose this.
I can't lose this match because it's goingto be embarrassing for me
because now I expect to win.
And I really think that robs us from ourability to enjoy the moment.
(24:50):
So let me ask you this, because I agreewith you, and this is something that we
hit in all our coachings isyou can't control wins.
And so I think players misunderstand that
It's easy to mistake, you can't go
out and win, you can still compete.
You can still go out thereand perform your best.
(25:11):
So maybe talk us about that a little bit,maybe replacing expectations or wins,
however you like to think about it, butwith the idea of what you mentioned, which
is doing the best that you'reable to that day or whatever.
Yeah.So it's twofold.
So one, for me, stoicism hasbrought this to light for me.
The truth is, stoic practice Butpretty much the whole thing is about.
(25:33):
It's one about being presentin the moment, which is great.
It's also about, objectively, there arethings you control and things you can't.
And the truth is,almost nothing is in our control.
And I think that's somethingthat people just don't realize.
And I think because ofthat, people view...
One thing is stoicism as thisbad rep of being unemotional.
(25:55):
People say, stoics or peoplethat aren't emotional.
The same way that when I try to I havepeople this, what we've talked about with
the pickleball thing, people willtell me, No, I just care too much.
And I'm like, No, you're wrong.
You care about the wrong thing.
Because the truth is, you can say you wantit more than me, but it won't make you
play better because you can'tcontrol how good you play.
(26:17):
In my opinion, this has been mymotto recently, attitude and effort.
That's it.I go on a pickleball court, that's it.
You game plan the bestyou can, 100 % before.
You give everything you all the effortthat you have, mentally to think about the
game plan and to physically to execute,and you're positive with yourself.
(26:38):
That's obviously a whole other thing,but I'm huge on self-positivity.
I mean, it's the biggest thing.
And I came from team sports, so seeing thenegativity towards people's selves is
unbelievable to me in pickleball.
And I've heard this ishow it is in tennis.
I never played.
But the self-negativity,I mean, I say this, right?
A great example, right?
(26:59):
Would you purposely hit ashot you know isn't as good.
And everyone would say, no.
And I'm like,but you will not purposely, but knowingly
be mean to yourself and possibly yourpartner, knowing that it's not going
to help you or them play better.
And then you're going to tellme that you want it more.
I'm like, Well, no, you'reworking against yourself.
(27:21):
To me, I'm maximizing what I can control.
If I can let go of all the things I can,expectations, the internal and
external pressure It doesn't exist.
I mean, it's created by you.
Other people say you should win.Does that mean you should win?
No.You say, Oh, I'm better than this person.
I should win.No.
Again, you can't...A couple of things.
One, you should have played enoughpickleball even once you played a couple
(27:45):
of matches, to know thatit's a fickle sport.
You don't win all the time.
You're not going to win every match thatyou're, quote, quote,
better than somebody.It's just not how it works.
So there's no point puttingexpectations like that on yourself.
I think And don't forget, Richard, it'shard to interrupt you, but don't forget,
you're also going to win somethat you probably shouldn't want.
Absolutely.Right.
(28:05):
So that's the thing.
That's where they're technicallythe better player and you still win.
So yeah.Yeah.
You're selling out.
Like I said, it's both...
I mean, with all this stuff, thething we're And so it's both ways.
When I say not getting too low after aloss, it's the exact same
thing when you get too high.
There's a whole thing, as I talked tosomeone recently about what's called the
Olympic Depression, which is afterOlympians went on a medal, they go into
(28:27):
this huge state of this sadness afterbecause they thought it was
going to have some meaning.
Olympians, a lot of times, have been doingtheir sports since they
were three or four.And the Olympic medal was everything.
And yet they achieve it, and it's nothing.
It's over.As soon as you get it, it's over.
The joy was the process.
And I think that's whatI've slowly been learning.
(28:48):
And you hear it.
I mean, I've heard that since I was threeyears old, and I never
believed it until recently.
And now I believe it to be true.
Like, pickleball is going to end at somepoint, and it's really not going to matter
how many masters I want because it's done.
If I go on to be the greatest pickleballplayer in history, I'm going to
be done and it's going to be over.
I would rather be a worst pickleballplayer who enjoys every moment I play from
(29:10):
now until the end, then bemiserable and win all the time.
Because the truth is, When you win,winning doesn't make you happy.
And if you haven't realizedthat yet, you will.
It doesn't.It doesn't bring you...
Like I said, you justkeep moving the goalpost.
You keep pushing it down the road.
It's that if I win, oh, okay,yeah, no, that medal wasn't good.
But if I get a gold medal, That's it.That's all I need.
(29:31):
I'll be so happy.
You'll win the gold medal, and then you'llsay, Now I want more gold medals,
and more, and more, and more.And of course, you want to pursue...
To me, you pursue growth.
To me, if I was Ben, and I'm winning,let's say, even Ben from two years
ago, I'm winning every single medal.
And again, it's the same thing that way.
For him, I think there was a littlebit of lack of interest, possibly.
(29:53):
But I think if you're focused on yourself,it's not about winning the gold, it's
about improving yourself, which is why Ithink he's becoming better now than he
ever has been before becausenow he has this drive back.
But I don't think...
Again, there's a big thing, right?
Agusti's talked about, he wrote a famousbook on it, about
attaching value to results.
(30:14):
And expectations and resultsgo hand in hand to me.
They're both out of your control.
And I am completely still in this.
And I tell people that my big goalin 2025 is stop lying to myself.
Because I said, when I started down thispath, I very quickly fell into this
hole of I wanted to see progress.
So when people ask me about it, Iwould tell them I'm making progress.
I'd be like, yeah, I don't feelthat way on the court anymore.
(30:35):
Or like, No, I'm so good at this now.
And I realized at some pointI was like, no, I'm not.
I'm still struggling with the same stuff.
And now I still strugglewith the same stuff.
At the last tournament, I lostIt's a match, and I want...
I really, I was like, Oh.
And it took me a while to just, it's over.
I feel a lot better now, and I'm goingto work next time to not feel that way.
Will it happen again?100 %.
(30:56):
And I think the other thing I've reallylearned, this is my big message to
everyone is always forgive yourself.
I mean, your partners, too.
That should be a no-brainer,though, be good partners.
But yourself, too.
I said this all the time.
I miss a shot, I forgivemyself, what can I do about it?
I lose a match, forgive myself,what can I do better?
We have this grief state, and I know it.
(31:19):
It's this hole where youwant to be angry at yourself.
You want to punish your sofahow you played or how you did.
And it doesn't do anything for you.
And it makes you so unhappy.
It may It made me so sad.
It made me so unhappy with who I was andwho I was as a player to the point
where I was literally like...
I remember the last time I felt this way,New York last year, so almost a year ago,
(31:41):
I just remember calling my dad and I waslike, I just don't think
I'm a pickleball player.I just don't think I'm cut out for it.
And At this point, I'vewon multiple pro-metals.
I'm making money playing pickleball,living what I would have said was a dream.
And I'm like, I just don'tthink I'm cut out for this.
I'm not having fun.
So another thing I heard, I know, I'm justjumping from place to place.
It's all It was, you've already achievedwhat you said would make you happy.
(32:04):
And I remember I saw that in New York,and I just remember, why am I like this?
I'm like, if you had told me I'm playingpickleball for a living, for over...
Now, a year and a halfI've been doing this.
I'm making money.I'm living in Florida.
This would be a dream.I wouldn't have given anything.
If you had told me, you lost that matchlast week, I would have
(32:25):
been like, Okay, whatever.
But now I'm like, Oh, myGod, I lost that match.
Maybe I should quit.Maybe I just don't have it anymore.
People have gotten too good.I can't handle that.
And the truth is,if that is the case, okay.
But until that day where I'mlike, Hey, I'm not making money.
I can't do this as a career.
I'm just going to do my best to forgivemyself, enjoy playing pickleball
(32:46):
and just have a blast.It's so much fun.
And I think if you can let go of thoseexpectations, you really realize you
have more fun and a littlecheat-cheat, you'll play a lot better.
Like everyone says, when you play,everyone says it to me,
at the pro level, right?
You come in and you play the higher seedsand you play really well against them.
(33:06):
And two things.One, when they lose, they're never upset.
First time they play, and nobody'supset when they lose to Ben and Ana Lee.
The top players All the players who thinkthey can beat them are, but all the
qualifiers are like,they lose four and five.
They're like, oh, I had some great points.That was awesome.
If they lose to me four and five, they'relike, oh, my God, I'm terrible, whatever.
(33:27):
But the point is, it's the same result.
Why would you treat it differently?
Because you've gone in withdifferent expectations.
So I think, one, you limit yourself.
It's a whole thing about, you talked aboutit with the big three,
Federer, Nadal, and Djokovitch.
Especially Federer and Nadal, everyonesaid in the 2000s, nobody could beat them.
And Djokovitch came in and waslike, I'm going to beat them.
So he didn't cap himself.
(33:47):
I feel like in pickleball,we're at this stage.
Ben and Annali are the perfect example.
People still are cappingthemselves against those players.
And the truth is, you may not be ready tobeat them, but you're definitely not ready
to beat them if you're telling yourselfpre-match, these guys are too good.
If in your head you're sayingthat, you're capping yourself.
And the same thing the other way, right?
You go in, you have a buy in a tournament,you're a pro or an amateur, whatever, and
(34:08):
you're like, oh, can't lose this match.
We can't lose this one.These guys aren't that good.
I know them.
You're way more likely to lose that matchthan you would be if you just played it.
And I will say, going back to what yousaid, and I'll share with you the way that
I've come up with framing it for myselfand for some players I've worked with is,
I think to solve that right is going backto the way you framed it originally, which
(34:31):
is just, I think you saidattitude and effort, was that?
Effort, yeah.
So basically, as long as you bring that tothe table, it doesn't
matter who's across the net.
Because now who's across the net mightaffect your game plan, your strategy.
That's one thing.
But how you come into the game and how youcarry yourself during the game,
(34:52):
both mechanically andmentally, shouldn't change.
Whether you're playing the 128 seed or thenumber two seed, it should
be the It's the same.
And your percentages aredifferent, but so what?
You're still going to do thething that you're going to do.
And the phrase that I've...
The way that I'm framing it these days is,I think it's from memory, but
it came from a little bit ofstoicism in my thinking anyway.
(35:14):
My my understanding of it.
It's do your bestto be your best or play your best.
But it has two components, right?
Because the thing that players, I think,sometimes miss is
the first part is subjective, meaningsometimes Sometimes Richard is not going
to be at 100 % because something's goingon in his family or he didn't sleep
(35:34):
well a couple of nights, whatever it is.
You're doing your best, but you haveto- I was sick at the last 20 minutes.
I threw it in before and I was not 100 %.Yeah.
Right.And you have to deal with that.
I mean, that's Sometimes it's just goingto be your brain just isn't clicking.
You're a millisecond late on the outballread or the counter or
whatever you're doing.
That's one area.
Then the other area is toplay my best or to do it.
(35:57):
That, to me, is the moreobjective So that's like
you're saying, you're working onyour game every day, you're drilling.
So now I can do these thingsto help me improve my baseline.
But even my baseline is going to have someadjustment to it based on how I'm
doing that day as a human being.
And so that's the way Ithink about it these days.
(36:17):
I love that.
Well, you're welcome to use it.
Richard, let me ask you a question.
I'm going to wrap just not because theconversation, we could
speak for four hours.I I'd love to.
But I know that we've always madethis podcast roughly around this time.
And I'm going to suggest I'd loveto do a follow-up podcast with you.
(36:39):
I'd love to.Anytime.
But let me ask you, we're bigfans of recommending a resource.
We suggest players listen to this podcastbecause we think it's a helpful way to get
into this and get a differentway of thinking about it.
We recommend certain books.
Is there a book that jumps out to you?
You can do the Marcus Horeli'sMeditations, but that one's
pretty deep, pretty heavy.I got two.
(37:01):
So is there something that you wouldrecommend to a player who's like, You
know what, stoicism sounds interesting.I've heard about it.
Maybe I've seen a video on it.
It's a good entry-level book.
Obviously, the people listeningto this are in the podcast.
So I have a podcast that I'm very into,which breaks down a lot of that mumbo
jumbo into very digestible pieces.
(37:21):
It's called Stoicism on Fire.
It's on every major podcast source.It's great.
Super easy.The episodes are all under 30 minutes.
Guy talks about it.
He also gives you a lot of resourcesif you're more interested in stoicism.
And then there's a lot of modern stoicism,which, again, everyone's different.
I'm not recommending anything.
For me, I focus more on ancient stoicism,only because modern stoicism removes
(37:44):
what's called the universal perspective,pretty much removing any religion idea,
which I think, and he talks about it inStoicism on Fire,
it's hard to have that perspective if youthink you may just be getting effed over.
But if you have that larger universalperspective, you're never
really getting ebbed over.There's some plan.
(38:04):
So there's two different views.I definitely like this one a lot more.
And then a book that a little stoic, notreally stoic, so if you're not as into
that, it's this guy,Michael Singer, I got into.
He's just a dude.
I don't know how else to explain him.
He's just a dude who wants youto be happy, talks about...
He actually has a...
I forget what it's called.
It's like a school in Florida.Not really a school.
It's like a...He goes and talks to people.
(38:25):
I don't know, like a seminar place.
It's in Gainesville, I think, up north.
But It's called The Untethered Soul.
It's a New York Times best seller.
Yeah, it's like an all time.Millions of copies sold.
Super popular.It's like $8.
It's super short.
They have digestible chapters.
It talks about the voice in your head.
It talks about how your brain works.
It just And the cool thing about theMichael Singer book is
(38:48):
what it talks about, you will go and see.
So it'll talk about ways to observeyourself thinking, and you'll
do it, and you'll go, Oh, wow.
Yeah, I am doing that.
So it's very easy.
And that's how I got into all this.
I So very quickly, I thought I was goingto be like, no, this doesn't apply to me.
But very quickly, I was like, no, thisis exactly how my brain is working.
And it may not be, like Isaid, I can only speak for me.
(39:09):
And I guess Michael, becausethat's what he wrote the book on.
But for me, it was very similar to how mybrain thinks about stuff and the
struggles and frustrations I have.
So that helped me a lot.
And there's a follow-up book.
It all ties together.
So all of that, those are great resources.I love it.
Yeah, those are really good.
Our recommendation to folks is, you and I,before we got on, we were
(39:30):
talking about another...
My mentor in this has been Coach PeterScales, and I've talked to you already
about getting you a copy of that book.
But what we recommend is youcan't go wrong.
You read it, and maybe this one doesn'treally land for you, but you try this one
over here and you're like,this one really lands.
We talked about it.
You mentioned it earlier, and I'dlike to close with this concept.
(39:53):
Let's hit this one again if we can for asecond, which is, pickleball is awesome.
It's great to be able to go out there andjust hit the ball
around, and that's great.
And I'll tell you the way we frame it, andthen we can just talk
about it for a second.
And you've already mentioned this, but weframe it as, use pickleball as a
canvas, as a canvas for yourself andyour development as a human being.
(40:16):
That's physical, social, emotional,mental, all of that stuff.
And then what you gain in this area on thepick-up-ball court will help you play
better pick-up-ball, like you said,but also will help you when you're
Maybe you're going to get pissed off atsomething that happened in
a family event or whatever.
All these things help you.
You're going to feel better with yourbody because your body's in better shape.
(40:38):
It's just a bigger way of looking.
I think reading these resources orlistening to the podcast, you mentioned
Stolicism on Fire, and we'll put all theselinks in the show notes for you
if you're listening to this.
But it's really just a wayof growing as a human being.
And it sounds like you're on an awesomejourney for yourself inside of pickleball.
(41:00):
Yeah, it's fun.
Finally, I think we said this before therecording, so I just want to
just touch on this.
I got into this to useeverything else I was using off the
pickleball court tohelp me play pickleball.
And what I've learned is that now,pickleball has become a place where I get
to practice all these other toolsthat I can bring into my life.
(41:22):
Again, pickleball is a part of my life.It's not who I am.
It never will be.
I got engaged.
I'm excited to start a I love my family.
I have great friends.
I love pickleball.
It's all who I am.
So to me, I think the coolest part aboutpickleball, and this is a thinker for
people, is a lot of times in your life,you're not Everyone's in different
(41:45):
places, but you're not pushed, I think.
Maybe you have some work deadlines orwhatever, but if you're working a normal
job, a lot of times you'rejust doing what you have to do.
And I said, Pimbleball is special becauseyou will be I'm just talking mentally
here, physically, obviously,but everyone gets that.
You get in what you put out.
Put in 100 % effort, play for five hours,you're going to be tired and sore, help
(42:08):
your muscle lose weight, all that stuff.
But mentally, you will bepushed every time you play.
I talk to my dad, he'slike, My dad was upset.
My dad plays 375, 4-0, pickleball.
And he's like, I wasangry that I was losing.
My mom's like, My sister and I...She's a twin.
She's like, Sissy and Idid not play well today.
It was not fun.And she's like, I was working on.
So to me, every time I go out on court, Iknow I'm going I'm going to be pushed and
(42:31):
put in a placeclose to where I'm or into that
uncomfortable shots aren't going my way.
Not everything's working perfectly.
Once in a while, everything goes great.Very rarely, though.
Almost always, it's that growth mindset.
So I went fromdoing all the stoicism, life, work,
meditation I work on, that's a huge toolthat stoicism and Michael Singer both
talk about just being with your thoughts.
(42:52):
But I did all that just tobe calm around the court.
Now I use all of that, like those toolsworking on the court so that I can
bring that into the rest of my life.
And I can speak for myself.
I was very close to my grandfather,and he died two months ago.
And if this was a year or two ago,I think I would have been just...
(43:14):
I don't know.I don't know how I would have handled it.
I'm fortunate enough,I've really never lost anybody, none
of my close family for most of my life.
And so losing him was really hard.
And when I was in India whenit happened, and I was okay.
And obviously, but again,the stuff we talk about.
And I said, there was no truer applicationfor me than being able to say, I really am
(43:38):
just happy,blessed, honestly, to be able to have all
the memories and have got to be presentwith him for all the time I did.
And I had him until I was in my 20s.He was 95.
So it's not like he was a young.
But even if I only got to spend the yearwith him, I can't go and
get more time with him.
So there's no pointlamenting over that to me.
(43:58):
I don't know.
And like I said, I don'tthink I would have thought that
when I started this journey.
But now I really do think that.
And I have some sadness when I think thatI'm not going to be able to
see him again, of course.
But again, it's more like joy thinkingabout who he was and who he was to me
and all the time I got spend together.
And looking at it now, I mean, I wouldlike to be like that all the time.
I mean, there's no reasonthat I ever want to be sad.
(44:21):
If I am sad, that's okay.
I'm not going to punishmyself for that or anything.
But I don't ever want to be angry and sadand make my day and
other people's day worse.
If I can, I want to be a happyperson who enjoys living.
And if that's for one more year or50 or 60 or 70 more years, great.
I'll enjoy as many days as I have left.
I think that's the attitude I wantto bring to the rest of my life.
(44:42):
And that's what I talkabout on my channels.
It's what I love talking about with you.
I'd love to do this again.
I work with some other podcasts.
I'm trying to get as involved as possibleand help as many people and
just open up this conversation.
I feel like Pickleball has given us aninteresting platform where I think
in the West, more than the East, not WestCoast, West side of the world, this is
something that just isn't talked about.
(45:03):
Recently, in the last 10 years, though, Ifeel like people are focusing
more on mental health and stuff.
My fiance was a psychology major.She was huge into it.
I literally still remember in high school,in the college, I literally was
like, I just think it's mambo jumbo.
I was like, I don't think I really...
I was like, I just thinkjust toughen up a little bit.
And that's just how I thought aboutsports and life, just toughen up.
(45:24):
And now I think it's apractice the same way.
Why do we...
We have this disease,where we think that...
I mean, I don't think I could go out andshoot Steph Curry if I don't practice,
but yet I think I can just changesomething mentally without any practice.
We go just like, Stop.Just stop being sad.
(45:44):
Don't work on it, just do it.
Where else in life do we justpick something up and do it?
Nowhere.
But yet we think with our mental game,we're frustrated that we continue to fail.
But I know I shouldn't be frustrated if Icontinue to fail at my third shot drop,
I'm going to work on itand keep getting better.
Same thing mentally, right?
And you will see progress.
I mean, I saw progress,fulfilled a ton of progress.
(46:06):
Like I said, he's an unbelievable person,just an amazing person
who always amazed me at how he carriedhimself, and I never understood how he
was able to carry himself like that.
And I still don't carrymyself anywhere like he does.
But I'm able to see how he's able tounderstand the situations presented to him
and really be objective about the worldaround them because he really
(46:26):
has that amazing perspective.
You're You're in your year two of his35-year practice, so you're
getting your lips in now.
That's what he says.
He's like, you're in your infancy still.
You're a young Padawanstudent of mental parts.
But the interesting is, andI'm going to close on this.
I thinkthe last message there, the idea that the
(46:51):
benefit you'll gain from your mental work,just reflecting on a few things at a time,
just a little bit of time,continuing to apply it, both to your
pickle ball and then using that as yourreps, so you can have a fuller life and
helping you deal withthings like your grandpa.
Obviously, sorry to hear about yourgrandfather, but congratulations
on your engagement.
So Richard, listen, Ilove this conversation.
(47:16):
I love the journey you're on.I applaud you for your, A, for yourself.
That's awesome in and of itself.
But B, more so for your willingness tospread it with others, to take the
stuff that's been shared with by yourcoach, Bill, by Michael, by the other
resources that you'vecome across and consumed.
Now you're sharing it, payingit forward, so to speak.
(47:38):
So I really appreciate you doing that.
Oh, one more thing.
I know that some playerslistening to this are going to want to
know more about Richard and whatyou're doing with your content.
You and I spoke beforehand.
I want to let everybody know Richard hassome YouTube content,
Insta following stuff.
If you're into that stuff, we'll putit down in the in the show notes.
(48:00):
And so definitely, if you want to followthis, find young player and young man and
thinker of the game and the mentalside, I recommend you do that.
Richard, it was a pleasure to have youon the Pickup Out There Every podcast.
Absolutely a pleasure.
I just wanted to say Yeah, my content is alot the same way we talk
about the mental side.I dig into a lot of the physical stuff.
I do a lot of tip videos,and I do all that stuff.
(48:22):
So if you're interested in any of that,I'd love to connect with you
on Insta or YouTube as well.
100 %.Thank you a lot, I really appreciate it.
I told you guys, that was afantastic interview with Richard.
Just interesting insights, differentway of approaching things with stoicism.
I actually started listening to thepodcast, Stoicism on Fire, and it It's
(48:45):
just been really interesting so far.
I'm on episode three, I believe is thenumber I'm on, starting from the
beginning, but really interesting stuff,and I'm looking forward to going into it,
learning more about stoicism andcontinuing to grow my
mental journey as well.
As always, if you have a moment to rateand review the podcast, please do
so and share it with your friends.
This podcast is something that helps a lotof pickleball players, and the more who
(49:08):
know about it, the more canbenefit from its content.
Be well, and I'll see you during the nextregular episode of pickleball Therapy.
Be well.
Hello, and welcome to pickleball Therapy,the podcast dedicated to your pickleball
improvement with a mind at its center.
My name is Tony Roig.
I am the host of your podcast.
This is a special episode of the podcast.
It's an interview that I had theopportunity to speak with
Richard Livornese, who's a propickleball player on a fantastic journey.
(00:27):
My initial intent was to just talk to himabout competition and dealing with
adversity, the normal things you wouldthink about if you're
speaking with a pro player.
Come to find out when we started chattingthat Richard has been on a deep dive
mental journey of his own,which was fantastic.
We were able to talk aboutdifferent tools that he uses, different
(00:50):
challenges that he's faced, and how he'sovercome them through
his own mental journey.
I think you're going to find thisinterview really fascinating.
It's a little bit longer of an episodethan normal because the
content was just there.
We could frankly gone twoor three times as long.
So it's a little bit longer of a podcast.
You're going to need about 45minutes to get through this one.
And there may be a little bit ofdog sound in the background.
(01:13):
I don't know, but Anita and Olivia werehanging out in the
hallway doing their thing.
So I apologize for that, but I don't thinkit'll interrupt your
enjoyment of the podcast.
Without further ado, let's dive straightin and listen to Richard's ideas
on the mental part of Picaball.
Richard, it's great tohave you on the podcast.
I appreciate you making the timeto join us in Picaball Therapy.
Pleasure to be here.Yeah, really excited to talk with you.
(01:36):
Awesome.
Before we started recording, you and I hada conversation about your journey as a
pickleball player and specifically yourmental journey Before we dive into that,
let's just get to know you a little bitfor our audience in terms
of when you got into pickleball, who gotyou into pickleball, things like that.
And then we'll dive into, I think for thelisteners, it's going to be a really
(01:56):
interesting ride about somestoicism ideas and some ideas that you've
come across that have helpedyou along your journey.
So tell everybody alittle bit about yourself.
Yeah.So my name is Richard Livornese.
I'm 23.
I started playing pickleball whenI was 19, so about four years ago.
I got into it because itwas just the beginning of...
(02:17):
It was COVID, and I was onvacation with my family.
And the place we were hada pickleball tournament.
I had no idea what it was.
I've never played a racquet sport,so a unique background for me.
I played football and lacrosse growingup and then lacrosse in college.
So we were out there and my unclewas like, we should just play.
It'll be fun.And I played with my dad and we won.
(02:41):
And it was like a local fun thing.
We were just runningaround hitting the ball.
We were terrible.And it was so much fun.
So then I came back.
I was home from college for COVID,and the town I was in started a club.
So my dad joined, and while I was homefrom college, and when I came home, I
continued to go and play And itwasn't that serious for a while.
(03:01):
And then in 2021, October, Ireally started playing a lot.
So it's been a little over three yearssince I started playing seriously.
And I rose through the rank, startingfrom your solid 3-0 all the way up.
I started winning localtournaments at 4-5 and 5-0.
And I met some guysmy age who actually run the Pickleball
(03:23):
Clinic, which is an online forum.
And they run something in NewJersey called Montclair Pickleball.
They do clinics and camps.
So I started working with them.
We all started together,and they were my age.
So we started on some bigger tournamentsjust for fun, and we started doing better.
And then, yes, I just kept playing and Idecided at some point I was going
to try to play some pro stuff.
And then in the start of 2022, the end of2022, I started playing pro tournaments.
(03:50):
So I played two that year, got destroyed.
I think I went one in six at onetournament, maybe two in six at another.
So we were really on to come up.
And then And starting in 2023,I really started playing pro.
I played every tournament on theAPP and four or five PPAs that year.
And then in 2024, I playedevery APP and four or five PPAs.
(04:12):
So it was a good year.And I've done pretty well.
I'm ranked inside the top 10 on the APP.
I've had some good PPA wins.
So I'm really just trying to get better,just like all you guys, I love playing.
I do it all the time.
I think I played five hours ofpickleball today, and it's only 4: 49.
So So I love pickleball,love playing, love teaching.
(04:32):
I make a lot of content.
I just love the community and the people.
So I try to be as involved aspossible in as many ways as I can.
Awesome, Richard.
Richard and I, this is the first time heand I meet, but I've heard great things
about him from our team, andthat's our team member, Emily.
Thanks for putting thistogether and connecting us.
But in terms of your place in pickleballand what I've heard from other players and
(04:57):
things like that, the way you carryyourself, It's great to have you as part
of our community as well and to have yoube a great spokesperson for the sport.
We have a lot to cover on the mental side,so I'd like to just dive right
into it if we can, Richard.
Can you talk us through when you Youtold me I could ask these questions.
I'm going to ask them.
So you suffered a loss in 2023, is whatyou told me, and that's what
(05:21):
really started your path.
Let's start from there and explain toeverybody, because everybody out here
who's listening has had, maybe not at abig pro tournament, but they've all had a
loss or a series of losses that puts themon that like, what am
I doing in this thing?Let's talk us through that.
I don't think it's very different being apro or an amateur when
it comes to this stuff.
When I started playingpickleball, it was fun.
(05:44):
And then that's the truth.I think that's why it's so addicting.
It's just so dang fun.
So I was having a blast, and I startedplaying, and I started doing
well, and I was having success.
And I started attachingvalue to success over time.
You start winning and doing And I'mwinning a lot of local stuff and whatever.
And then I'm startingto win some pro matches.
And the guy I work with now, we call itthe I'll be happy if or
(06:09):
I'll be happy when struggle.
And so I started having that.
And I didn't realize it was a problembecause as long as you just
keep getting better, it's fine.
So I win a 5-0, okay, great.
Now I set a new goal.
So now I'll be happy when I become a 5-5.Okay, I do that.
I'll be happy when I win a pro match.Okay, do that.
I'll be happy when I win a pro meta.
Okay, do And suddenly, you stop havingthat success because there's an end.
(06:35):
Even Ben Jones, what would his goal be?
Triple crown every tournament.
And if he doesn't do that, if you attachyour worth to something like that,
eventually it catches up to you.
And I started having that in 2023.
So I won my first next Gen in 2023, and Igot a silver medal in
2023 over the summer.
And I was on this high.
(06:56):
I was like, Oh, I'm so great, whatever.
And then I couldn't I lostsome first round matches.
And the rest of the summer, I'm juststruggling, and I'm just not
having the success that I was.
And I had moved my goalpost.
So now that I had won thatmedal, I'm expecting medals.
And that's just not happening.So I'm not winning.
And the truth is, evennow, that doesn't happen.
(07:16):
I've been trying at thisfor another two years.
I'm not winning medals every tournament.
There's almost nobody doing that.
The truth is, there's so manytalented players, and not just at pro.
The 4-0 level has risen so much.
4-0s now would destroyme when I was a 4-0.
Five Myvos now are way better than I was.
The truth is every level isgetting more competitive.
I think this catches up to all of us.
(07:37):
It caught up to me.
I told Tony, I justremember the exact moment.
It was Chicago, 2023.
I was playing with a really good player.
I set these unreasonable expectationsbecause to me, I think any expectations
are unreasonable becauseyou can't control it.
I set these expectations and I did notachieve them, lost a bad match, then
(07:59):
lost another bad match to go out.
And I remember sitting down under a treeand I was teary-eye, and I just
remember, I haven't been having fun.
So not enjoying being here.I was like, I want to go home.
I was like, maybe pick a ball for me.
And I remember I called my dad, and hewas like, just give Coach Bill a call.
So for reference, Coach Bill is a coach Ihad in high school for football and
(08:23):
lacrosse, and he was theperfect definition of a stoic.
And I didn't understand it when I was inhigh school because I don't think high
school students really, really do.
But everything he would say, talk aboutbeing present, not letting the wins affect
you, not letting the losses affect you,talking about how when the scoreboard
turns off, the game's over.
Win or lose, it doesn't matter.
And we all, literally, wewere like, That's just BS.
(08:46):
That's not true.
We all just want to win, win, win,
win, win person in the world.
That was something I took joy in.
And it caught up to me.
And so I'm very frustrated and angry.
(09:07):
And I called him and he put meon to some stuff to listen to.
It's this guy named Michael Singer.
It's some books, a lot of stuff.
And it's like an...
I would call it an introduction tospirituality and stoicism
would be the idea.And I didn't know that.
He didn't tell me that or whatever.
We just talked and he was like, ifyou want to improve this, here are some
things to look at that will helpyou reprioritize.
(09:30):
To get back to having fun.And I got hooked and I've been hooked.
And since then, it's beenover a year and a half.
It's my life.
It's more important to me than pickleball.
And saying that makes me happy.
And maybe it's not always true.
I think sometimes in my brain, I still go,pickleball is the most important thing.
But I think a lot of the time it is truebecause it's about my
(09:51):
happiness, my joy, all that.
So that was how I started down the path,and it's taken me a long, long way.
So Awesome.Thanks, Richard, for sharing that.
I have a couple of notes hereI'm going to come back to.
Actually, it's interesting because youjust said something that
resonated with me because I've been onmy journey about four years or so now.
I actually started this podcast as part ofmy personal journey, meaning when I first
(10:17):
started the podcast, Ibasically, I was open about it.
I said, I hope this podcast helpseverybody who wants to listen to this,
but I'm going to make it anyway becauseI'm making it for me and my journey, and
then hopefully you comealong for the ride.
But But what you said is this...
It's normal to...And I'm going to...
(10:37):
Backsliding is too big of a term, butI can't think of another one right now.
But basically, the old habit pops insteadof because I played, and it wasn't a
tournament, I just playedsocially yesterday.
And two things happened that one was I wasgetting on myself unrealistically for
hitting balls into the net when Ihaven't practiced or really played much.
And it just doesn't endas a social game anyway.
And then the second thing was theThe score was affecting how I felt.
(11:01):
When we were up big, I was relaxed.
When it was tight or we were behind, thenI was more tense, which is contrary to
what I understand is how Ishould be when I'm out there.
But what I realized was I didn't prepare.
And that's one of the things I've beenfocusing on now in my podcast and stuff,
this podcast istrying to recommend that players take
(11:23):
moments to get themselves ready, becauseonce you're in the barrel,
once you're inside the barrel andthings are happening, things get nutty.
But anyway, so that was interesting.
But let me take you up one thing.
I just want to part-playall that for one second.
Do it.
Yeah, so the coach I worked with, sohe's been doing this for like 35 years.
(11:44):
He was a college football star,and he had some struggles.
And he, like you said, huge backslide.
His story, someday, he'san amazing guy to talk to.
But he's been on this for a long time.And that's always...
He has a lot of things.
He says one And one of the things islike, backsliding, like going out on the
courts, like having a drinkif you're an alcoholic.
(12:05):
It's like, like you said, the firsttime, you're much more resistant.
But every time after that, Iknow that to be true for me.
The first time I get upset on court,I have more of a barrier.
But every time after that, it's so hard.
And by the time you've been upset,you've been like, why did I miss that?
Why did I miss that?
The next time it happens,you're off the rocker.
(12:25):
And we call it like, it'slike losing our center.
So Once you are off your center,it's very hard to climb back on.
So what usually ends up happening, and itstill happens to me, is I said at the last
tournament, I totally lost my centerone day, and it took me a while.
There was nothing I could do.
I mean, probably there was,but there's something I did.
And at some point, I took a deepbreath, and I was like, Okay, it's over.
(12:47):
I'm back.Whatever.
But the thing he said is, As the journeyprogresses, and I know it to be true,
you're a little further along thanI am, and he's a lot further along.
He said, The amount of times it happensdecreases, and the length, you
lose your center decreases.
So he's like, in the beginning, and I knowwhen I would lose a match, it was like
hours, days, sometimes beingfrustrated about it to now very short.
(13:11):
I mean, I would say usually like15 minutes or less for me, maybe.
If I I frustrated at all, it's muchshorter because very quickly my brain's...
Again, you're rewiring your brain.
That's really what we're doing here.
And very quickly your brain isreminding you like, hey, it's nice out.
You're still in a pickleball tournament.
This is a pretty good day.
I mean, do you really want to justI sit around and be angry all day?
I don't know.
(13:32):
Sorry.
No, it's interesting because Iwrote a piece and I did a podcast.
So I went to the...
I've gone to the last two nationals.
I never gone to a national before.
I played the US Open because I washere in Florida But not the nationals.
You can play nationalsor nationals, nationals?
The USA Pickup Ball National.
So the one in Dallas in'23 and then the '24.
(13:54):
Arizona.Yeah.
So I got Tanner, the guy Imentioned, Tanner Picklebron.
We got bronze in men's doublesat Nationals last year.
Cool.That's awesome.
It was a good...It was a lucky...
Like I said, that's the firsttime I've ever played nationals.
It was an amazing atmosphere.
So many people.I thought it...
Amazing.I never had such a cool experience.
I agree.Nationals, Those are big tournaments.
(14:15):
But in '23, I'm at Nationals inDallas, and I'm playing senior pro.
One of the things that I like abouttournaments is it allows me to see players
who I don't get to see becausethey're all over the country.
And so I go to the tournament and I justlike, listen, I go out
there, I do my best.
I play senior pro, but I'mnot training all the time.
I don't work at the game the way you wouldwork at the game based on your
(14:38):
dedication to what you're trying to do.
I'm fine with it.
I go out there, I do my thing.
I got punchers chances in these games.I do the best I can.
I play as hard as I can.
But for me, it's more just to go and seeeverybody and shake hands and
hug them and all that stuff.
But there was a moment therewhere I'm looking around.
There was this area where you look aroundall these courts, and I'm looking up and
down the courts, seeing allmy friends and acquaintances playing,
(15:01):
and they're miserable.
I mean, absolutely miserable, up and down.
It wasn't like it was the most...
Not all of them, most of them.
To me, it's even sillier becauseI'm not saying you should get down.
You shouldn't.No.
But this is for you, I believeit's like a career thing.
(15:22):
It's like a thing...For them, they're all 50 over.
They're all like, Why did you go toNationals to have a bad
time, to be stressed out.
Go do something else.
Stay at home.Do some gardening.
A hundred %.
I've said for a while, I thinkthis is my gimmick to sell it.
Because I said the truth is, I'll try andget people on this path any way I can.
(15:46):
The truth is, and I say all this to pros,I was like,
you want to know how to be better thanpeople the quickest way possible,
change your mental game.
The pro game, like you said, the pro gameis the senior pro game amplified Because
like you said, you have people that feelthe same way plus external pressure.
So they are creating internal pressure,but people are like, hey, if I don't do
(16:08):
this, I might lose mysponsorship, whatever it is.
And the truth is, it's all BS because nomatter how bad you want it, you
can't control if you win or lose.
You can put in as much effort and havethe right attitude, but I can want it.
I told my friend this, and it took him acouple of weeks, and he came back to me.
He was like, Yeah, I get it now.
But I said, If you took 100 peopleand you designed the ultimate practice
(16:30):
plan, and you guys all practiceyour butts off 15 hours a day.
I mean, you just dedicate your life to it.
Only one of you will be the best,and it probably won't be you.
That's the truth.
The idea that everyone's just like, Justoutwork them, I actually think that's...
Put the work in 100%, you have to.That's a requirement.
(16:51):
But you want to know the biggestway to get ahead, it's this stuff.
And to me, that was howI got involved in this.
I thought it was a gimmicky,Hey, it'll help me get better, so I'll
take a couple of steps down the path.
I'm never going to really believe it.
I want to win.I'm competitive.
That's what I care about.
But what happened is over time, yourealize, wow, there
are much bigger things.So it's funny.
(17:13):
That was a big perspectiveYou're talking about perspective.
A big perspective shift for me going fromwhen I started on this, it was
just to get better at pickleball.
Now, being better atpickleball is a byproduct.
It's not the goal.
I said, pickleball to me now has become atool where it's so emotionally charged all
the time that I just get to practice themental stuff more than everyone else does.
(17:35):
I talk to my parents about this.
They have some stuff that they're workingand stuff, so they have some stuff
that they get angry or upset about.
But it's a couple of times a week,maybe, maybe once a week, maybe less.
I have it a couple of times a day.
I go out to drill, things arenot going to go the way I plan.
They never do.Every day, I get to work on this.
And I said, that's honestly the reason whyI don't think I can go back to trying to
do a 9 (17:56):
00 to 5
grow every every day.
That's what pickleballbrings me more than anything.
And obviously, I'mpursuing the best I can be.
I said, that's my goal this year,to become the best Richard I can.
I'm not trying to beat Ben Jones.
Maybe I can.I'd be happy to.
I'd love to.That'd be awesome.
But if that's in the cards forme, that's in the cards for me.
If it's not, it's not.
(18:17):
I know I can become a better version ofmyself on the court, one, mentally,
two, physically, and three, emotionally.
So that's what I'm working for.
But that is a huge thingI notice all the time.
The mental game across theboard is weak, it's angry.
And it may not be...
And weak doesn'tnecessarily mean just tense.
It can be like you said, Iconsider a weak mental game.
(18:38):
I mean, if you're walking off the courtafter a loss, playing in beautiful
California, and you're just miserablebecause you lost, for the rest
of the trip, that's weak to me.Because I don't know.
I just remember talking to mymom about this a long time ago.
And when I was younger, I remember wetalked and she had told me,
Oh, I just want to get through the week.
And I remember that for a while.
And at some point, I talked to herrecently about it and I was like, it is
(19:01):
funny, though, becauseyou're trying to skip 75 % of your life to
get to the 25 % that you'reputting expectations on.
You're expecting this tosuck and this to be amazing.
Twofold.
One, this will never liveup to your expectations.
Two, You're fast forwardingthrough your life.
So for me now, I don't lookforward to the tournaments anymore.
I do.
(19:21):
I'm excited to go to them, but I'mworking on being excited every day.
I got to play today.It's an awesome day.
Got to talk to somebody andhelp my mental the game.
And what you said, the one other thing Iwanted to key on was the thing Coach Bill
told me, which I now believe 100 % is thebest way to work on this is
to talk to people about it.
You can sit in your inner mind all day,but when you talk to other people and they
(19:42):
give you their perspective andtheir stories, and that helps.
I mean, that's helped me so much.
I still talk to him all the time.
I call him at the last tournament, noteven about after the loss, whatever.
I just called him and we just chatted,and he gave me some new perspective.
I gave him some new stuff.
And I think the most beautiful thing aboutthis is it It's probably
been given to you for free.
(20:02):
It was given to me for free.
So I'm just trying to give itaway, as many people as I can.
I get to be around a lotof the young players here.
So I talk to them about it.
Anyone that asks, I'mhappy to talk to about it.
And if I can help them, great.That'd be awesome.
If I could help more people be happy andcontent and enjoy what they're doing,
happy to do it.So it's fun.
And I would say this.
I agree with you that I think it'sdifficult for a high schooler
(20:24):
to pick up on some of themore nuanced pieces of this.
But I grew up in tennis, right?
And I didn't play high school tennis, butwhen I was a young boy, I
played competitive tennis.We traveled.
I played tournaments, all that stuff.
What I realized wasnow, what I realized now is, I spent hours
on the court fine-tuning forehandserve, volleys, whatever.
(20:48):
No time was spent on mental.
And what you said is 100% true.
I don't know if you probably know the YogiBerra quote, but the Yogi Berra quote
was, Base is 90% mental and 50 %.
The rest, the other 50 % is whatever.
And so it's true.
I'll tell you a quick side thing.
(21:13):
I'm a big proponent of...
Not proponent, that's not...I'm a student of the game.
One area where I think pros are prettybad at, I don't mean you, right?
I just mean in general, time out.
Time out usage is awful for most pros.
Like waiting until it's 10 (21:27):
03 When I'm calling a time out, it's
like- I've talked to people.
It's like admitting your fail.I guess.
It's weird.
Analee Waters is the besttimeout call in the game.
And then she plays with Ben,who hates calling timeouts.
Right, but that's the point.
But this is the thing, right?
(21:48):
I'll tell you where I'm at with it.
Because I used to be like, Whydid Ben and Colin don't call?
It was crazy to me, right?
Why don't they call timeouts?But you know what I realized?
Ben is always in a timeout, literally.
He is so chill betweenone and the next rally.
He's basically like an auto time out.
He has, I think, thecalmest between the alleys.
(22:10):
I think he also has a unique tool.
He said this a while ago.
I remember it was probably a year ortwo ago, which I actually think...
So I guess for him, it's alittle bit of an exception.
But he said, he and Colin, especially,game plan better than most people.
So he's like, I also, even if I'm a littlefrustrated, he goes, I don't really want
to give my opponentsmore time to game plan.
He goes, We know what we're going to do.
(22:31):
They probably don't know as well.
So to give them more time to figure outa strategy and stuff may not make sense.
But again, across the board, something Isee all the time, especially when now a
lot of coaches playersare helping other players.
We're on the sideline watching our friendlose two, three points in
a row and we're like this.It's like, one, one.
It's always one more.
There's like five and you're like, what?They win it.
(22:53):
They're like, See, I didn't need it.
I'm like, that's not really the point.It wasn't about it.
It's about the situation.
And people have asked me that, what'sIt's the best time to call a time out.
I said it's fluid.
It's this, not the score.
I've called timeouts, Richard.
I've called timeouts at one-onebecause me and my partner...
(23:14):
Well, me and my partner had a disagreementand he was pissed at me about something.
I'll call time out.We're not going to play like that, right?
So we just come off thecourt, we work it out.
I've called timeouts at 3 (23:22):
00, 4
missing a dink and she'stalking to herself.
And in case you're listening and you wanthow to do timeouts, I recommend
doing timeouts for yourself.
Don't be like, I call the time out,Richard, because I saw you were a mess.
I'm going to call a timeout.
I call a timeout, I'm like, Ijust got something in my eye.
I need some water.I don't know.
I'm trying to get off the score becausethis is a disaster waiting to happen.
(23:45):
But anyway, but going back to Ben, Ithink, again, I've come around on Ben not
calling time out because I justthink he's in a constant state.
But let me tee this up for a minute.
You're good on time, Richard.
We're going a little bit longer than I hadsaid to you, but if you
have a couple more minutes.I'm good.
Yeah, I'm That's awesome.
If you're listening to this podcast,I highly recommend you stick around.
I know we're going a little longer thannormal, but I
(24:06):
didn't realize we're going to have atreasure trove of cool
information to chat about here.
You mentioned expectations, and Ithink that's an area that is super...
It creeps up on you because Ithink all players are like this.
You start playing,you got no expectations, you just go out
there, you have fun, and it's unbridled.
Then maybe you win a couple...
(24:27):
You're not even playing tournaments.
You start winning some games.
And you're like, so now players arelooking at you like you're one of them
mid-level or better players in that court.
And then all of a sudden it becomes like,Shit, I can't lose this.
I can't lose this match because it's goingto be embarrassing for me
because now I expect to win.
And I really think that robs us from ourability to enjoy the moment.
(24:50):
So let me ask you this, because I agreewith you, and this is something that we
hit in all our coachings isyou can't control wins.
And so I think players misunderstand that
It's easy to mistake, you can't go
out and win, you can still compete.
You can still go out thereand perform your best.
(25:11):
So maybe talk us about that a little bit,maybe replacing expectations or wins,
however you like to think about it, butwith the idea of what you mentioned, which
is doing the best that you'reable to that day or whatever.
Yeah.So it's twofold.
So one, for me, stoicism hasbrought this to light for me.
The truth is, stoic practice Butpretty much the whole thing is about.
(25:33):
It's one about being presentin the moment, which is great.
It's also about, objectively, there arethings you control and things you can't.
And the truth is,almost nothing is in our control.
And I think that's somethingthat people just don't realize.
And I think because ofthat, people view...
One thing is stoicism as thisbad rep of being unemotional.
(25:55):
People say, stoics or peoplethat aren't emotional.
The same way that when I try to I havepeople this, what we've talked about with
the pickleball thing, people willtell me, No, I just care too much.
And I'm like, No, you're wrong.
You care about the wrong thing.
Because the truth is, you can say you wantit more than me, but it won't make you
play better because you can'tcontrol how good you play.
(26:17):
In my opinion, this has been mymotto recently, attitude and effort.
That's it.I go on a pickleball court, that's it.
You game plan the bestyou can, 100 % before.
You give everything you all the effortthat you have, mentally to think about the
game plan and to physically to execute,and you're positive with yourself.
(26:38):
That's obviously a whole other thing,but I'm huge on self-positivity.
I mean, it's the biggest thing.
And I came from team sports, so seeing thenegativity towards people's selves is
unbelievable to me in pickleball.
And I've heard this ishow it is in tennis.
I never played.
But the self-negativity,I mean, I say this, right?
A great example, right?
(26:59):
Would you purposely hit ashot you know isn't as good.
And everyone would say, no.
And I'm like,but you will not purposely, but knowingly
be mean to yourself and possibly yourpartner, knowing that it's not going
to help you or them play better.
And then you're going to tellme that you want it more.
I'm like, Well, no, you'reworking against yourself.
(27:21):
To me, I'm maximizing what I can control.
If I can let go of all the things I can,expectations, the internal and
external pressure It doesn't exist.
I mean, it's created by you.
Other people say you should win.Does that mean you should win?
No.You say, Oh, I'm better than this person.
I should win.No.
Again, you can't...A couple of things.
One, you should have played enoughpickleball even once you played a couple
(27:45):
of matches, to know thatit's a fickle sport.
You don't win all the time.
You're not going to win every match thatyou're, quote, quote,
better than somebody.It's just not how it works.
So there's no point puttingexpectations like that on yourself.
I think And don't forget, Richard, it'shard to interrupt you, but don't forget,
you're also going to win somethat you probably shouldn't want.
Absolutely.Right.
(28:05):
So that's the thing.
That's where they're technicallythe better player and you still win.
So yeah.Yeah.
You're selling out.
Like I said, it's both...
I mean, with all this stuff, thething we're And so it's both ways.
When I say not getting too low after aloss, it's the exact same
thing when you get too high.
There's a whole thing, as I talked tosomeone recently about what's called the
Olympic Depression, which is afterOlympians went on a medal, they go into
(28:27):
this huge state of this sadness afterbecause they thought it was
going to have some meaning.
Olympians, a lot of times, have been doingtheir sports since they
were three or four.And the Olympic medal was everything.
And yet they achieve it, and it's nothing.
It's over.As soon as you get it, it's over.
The joy was the process.
And I think that's whatI've slowly been learning.
(28:48):
And you hear it.
I mean, I've heard that since I was threeyears old, and I never
believed it until recently.
And now I believe it to be true.
Like, pickleball is going to end at somepoint, and it's really not going to matter
how many masters I want because it's done.
If I go on to be the greatest pickleballplayer in history, I'm going to
be done and it's going to be over.
I would rather be a worst pickleballplayer who enjoys every moment I play from
(29:10):
now until the end, then bemiserable and win all the time.
Because the truth is, When you win,winning doesn't make you happy.
And if you haven't realizedthat yet, you will.
It doesn't.It doesn't bring you...
Like I said, you justkeep moving the goalpost.
You keep pushing it down the road.
It's that if I win, oh, okay,yeah, no, that medal wasn't good.
But if I get a gold medal, That's it.That's all I need.
(29:31):
I'll be so happy.
You'll win the gold medal, and then you'llsay, Now I want more gold medals,
and more, and more, and more.And of course, you want to pursue...
To me, you pursue growth.
To me, if I was Ben, and I'm winning,let's say, even Ben from two years
ago, I'm winning every single medal.
And again, it's the same thing that way.
For him, I think there was a littlebit of lack of interest, possibly.
(29:53):
But I think if you're focused on yourself,it's not about winning the gold, it's
about improving yourself, which is why Ithink he's becoming better now than he
ever has been before becausenow he has this drive back.
But I don't think...
Again, there's a big thing, right?
Agusti's talked about, he wrote a famousbook on it, about
attaching value to results.
(30:14):
And expectations and resultsgo hand in hand to me.
They're both out of your control.
And I am completely still in this.
And I tell people that my big goalin 2025 is stop lying to myself.
Because I said, when I started down thispath, I very quickly fell into this
hole of I wanted to see progress.
So when people ask me about it, Iwould tell them I'm making progress.
I'd be like, yeah, I don't feelthat way on the court anymore.
(30:35):
Or like, No, I'm so good at this now.
And I realized at some pointI was like, no, I'm not.
I'm still struggling with the same stuff.
And now I still strugglewith the same stuff.
At the last tournament, I lostIt's a match, and I want...
I really, I was like, Oh.
And it took me a while to just, it's over.
I feel a lot better now, and I'm goingto work next time to not feel that way.
Will it happen again?100 %.
(30:56):
And I think the other thing I've reallylearned, this is my big message to
everyone is always forgive yourself.
I mean, your partners, too.
That should be a no-brainer,though, be good partners.
But yourself, too.
I said this all the time.
I miss a shot, I forgivemyself, what can I do about it?
I lose a match, forgive myself,what can I do better?
We have this grief state, and I know it.
(31:19):
It's this hole where youwant to be angry at yourself.
You want to punish your sofahow you played or how you did.
And it doesn't do anything for you.
And it makes you so unhappy.
It may It made me so sad.
It made me so unhappy with who I was andwho I was as a player to the point
where I was literally like...
I remember the last time I felt this way,New York last year, so almost a year ago,
(31:41):
I just remember calling my dad and I waslike, I just don't think
I'm a pickleball player.I just don't think I'm cut out for it.
And At this point, I'vewon multiple pro-metals.
I'm making money playing pickleball,living what I would have said was a dream.
And I'm like, I just don'tthink I'm cut out for this.
I'm not having fun.
So another thing I heard, I know, I'm justjumping from place to place.
It's all It was, you've already achievedwhat you said would make you happy.
(32:04):
And I remember I saw that in New York,and I just remember, why am I like this?
I'm like, if you had told me I'm playingpickleball for a living, for over...
Now, a year and a halfI've been doing this.
I'm making money.I'm living in Florida.
This would be a dream.I wouldn't have given anything.
If you had told me, you lost that matchlast week, I would have
(32:25):
been like, Okay, whatever.
But now I'm like, Oh, myGod, I lost that match.
Maybe I should quit.Maybe I just don't have it anymore.
People have gotten too good.I can't handle that.
And the truth is,if that is the case, okay.
But until that day where I'mlike, Hey, I'm not making money.
I can't do this as a career.
I'm just going to do my best to forgivemyself, enjoy playing pickleball
(32:46):
and just have a blast.It's so much fun.
And I think if you can let go of thoseexpectations, you really realize you
have more fun and a littlecheat-cheat, you'll play a lot better.
Like everyone says, when you play,everyone says it to me,
at the pro level, right?
You come in and you play the higher seedsand you play really well against them.
(33:06):
And two things.One, when they lose, they're never upset.
First time they play, and nobody'supset when they lose to Ben and Ana Lee.
The top players All the players who thinkthey can beat them are, but all the
qualifiers are like,they lose four and five.
They're like, oh, I had some great points.That was awesome.
If they lose to me four and five, they'relike, oh, my God, I'm terrible, whatever.
(33:27):
But the point is, it's the same result.
Why would you treat it differently?
Because you've gone in withdifferent expectations.
So I think, one, you limit yourself.
It's a whole thing about, you talked aboutit with the big three,
Federer, Nadal, and Djokovitch.
Especially Federer and Nadal, everyonesaid in the 2000s, nobody could beat them.
And Djokovitch came in and waslike, I'm going to beat them.
So he didn't cap himself.
(33:47):
I feel like in pickleball,we're at this stage.
Ben and Annali are the perfect example.
People still are cappingthemselves against those players.
And the truth is, you may not be ready tobeat them, but you're definitely not ready
to beat them if you're telling yourselfpre-match, these guys are too good.
If in your head you're sayingthat, you're capping yourself.
And the same thing the other way, right?
You go in, you have a buy in a tournament,you're a pro or an amateur, whatever, and
(34:08):
you're like, oh, can't lose this match.
We can't lose this one.These guys aren't that good.
I know them.
You're way more likely to lose that matchthan you would be if you just played it.
And I will say, going back to what yousaid, and I'll share with you the way that
I've come up with framing it for myselfand for some players I've worked with is,
I think to solve that right is going backto the way you framed it originally, which
(34:31):
is just, I think you saidattitude and effort, was that?
Effort, yeah.
So basically, as long as you bring that tothe table, it doesn't
matter who's across the net.
Because now who's across the net mightaffect your game plan, your strategy.
That's one thing.
But how you come into the game and how youcarry yourself during the game,
(34:52):
both mechanically andmentally, shouldn't change.
Whether you're playing the 128 seed or thenumber two seed, it should
be the It's the same.
And your percentages aredifferent, but so what?
You're still going to do thething that you're going to do.
And the phrase that I've...
The way that I'm framing it these days is,I think it's from memory, but
it came from a little bit ofstoicism in my thinking anyway.
(35:14):
My my understanding of it.
It's do your bestto be your best or play your best.
But it has two components, right?
Because the thing that players, I think,sometimes miss is
the first part is subjective, meaningsometimes Sometimes Richard is not going
to be at 100 % because something's goingon in his family or he didn't sleep
(35:34):
well a couple of nights, whatever it is.
You're doing your best, but you haveto- I was sick at the last 20 minutes.
I threw it in before and I was not 100 %.Yeah.
Right.And you have to deal with that.
I mean, that's Sometimes it's just goingto be your brain just isn't clicking.
You're a millisecond late on the outballread or the counter or
whatever you're doing.
That's one area.
Then the other area is toplay my best or to do it.
(35:57):
That, to me, is the moreobjective So that's like
you're saying, you're working onyour game every day, you're drilling.
So now I can do these thingsto help me improve my baseline.
But even my baseline is going to have someadjustment to it based on how I'm
doing that day as a human being.
And so that's the way Ithink about it these days.
(36:17):
I love that.
Well, you're welcome to use it.
Richard, let me ask you a question.
I'm going to wrap just not because theconversation, we could
speak for four hours.I I'd love to.
But I know that we've always madethis podcast roughly around this time.
And I'm going to suggest I'd loveto do a follow-up podcast with you.
(36:39):
I'd love to.Anytime.
But let me ask you, we're bigfans of recommending a resource.
We suggest players listen to this podcastbecause we think it's a helpful way to get
into this and get a differentway of thinking about it.
We recommend certain books.
Is there a book that jumps out to you?
You can do the Marcus Horeli'sMeditations, but that one's
pretty deep, pretty heavy.I got two.
(37:01):
So is there something that you wouldrecommend to a player who's like, You
know what, stoicism sounds interesting.I've heard about it.
Maybe I've seen a video on it.
It's a good entry-level book.
Obviously, the people listeningto this are in the podcast.
So I have a podcast that I'm very into,which breaks down a lot of that mumbo
jumbo into very digestible pieces.
(37:21):
It's called Stoicism on Fire.
It's on every major podcast source.It's great.
Super easy.The episodes are all under 30 minutes.
Guy talks about it.
He also gives you a lot of resourcesif you're more interested in stoicism.
And then there's a lot of modern stoicism,which, again, everyone's different.
I'm not recommending anything.
For me, I focus more on ancient stoicism,only because modern stoicism removes
(37:44):
what's called the universal perspective,pretty much removing any religion idea,
which I think, and he talks about it inStoicism on Fire,
it's hard to have that perspective if youthink you may just be getting effed over.
But if you have that larger universalperspective, you're never
really getting ebbed over.There's some plan.
(38:04):
So there's two different views.I definitely like this one a lot more.
And then a book that a little stoic, notreally stoic, so if you're not as into
that, it's this guy,Michael Singer, I got into.
He's just a dude.
I don't know how else to explain him.
He's just a dude who wants youto be happy, talks about...
He actually has a...
I forget what it's called.
It's like a school in Florida.Not really a school.
It's like a...He goes and talks to people.
(38:25):
I don't know, like a seminar place.
It's in Gainesville, I think, up north.
But It's called The Untethered Soul.
It's a New York Times best seller.
Yeah, it's like an all time.Millions of copies sold.
Super popular.It's like $8.
It's super short.
They have digestible chapters.
It talks about the voice in your head.
It talks about how your brain works.
It just And the cool thing about theMichael Singer book is
(38:48):
what it talks about, you will go and see.
So it'll talk about ways to observeyourself thinking, and you'll
do it, and you'll go, Oh, wow.
Yeah, I am doing that.
So it's very easy.
And that's how I got into all this.
I So very quickly, I thought I was goingto be like, no, this doesn't apply to me.
But very quickly, I was like, no, thisis exactly how my brain is working.
And it may not be, like Isaid, I can only speak for me.
(39:09):
And I guess Michael, becausethat's what he wrote the book on.
But for me, it was very similar to how mybrain thinks about stuff and the
struggles and frustrations I have.
So that helped me a lot.
And there's a follow-up book.
It all ties together.
So all of that, those are great resources.I love it.
Yeah, those are really good.
Our recommendation to folks is, you and I,before we got on, we were
(39:30):
talking about another...
My mentor in this has been Coach PeterScales, and I've talked to you already
about getting you a copy of that book.
But what we recommend is youcan't go wrong.
You read it, and maybe this one doesn'treally land for you, but you try this one
over here and you're like,this one really lands.
We talked about it.
You mentioned it earlier, and I'dlike to close with this concept.
(39:53):
Let's hit this one again if we can for asecond, which is, pickleball is awesome.
It's great to be able to go out there andjust hit the ball
around, and that's great.
And I'll tell you the way we frame it, andthen we can just talk
about it for a second.
And you've already mentioned this, but weframe it as, use pickleball as a
canvas, as a canvas for yourself andyour development as a human being.
(40:16):
That's physical, social, emotional,mental, all of that stuff.
And then what you gain in this area on thepick-up-ball court will help you play
better pick-up-ball, like you said,but also will help you when you're
Maybe you're going to get pissed off atsomething that happened in
a family event or whatever.
All these things help you.
You're going to feel better with yourbody because your body's in better shape.
(40:38):
It's just a bigger way of looking.
I think reading these resources orlistening to the podcast, you mentioned
Stolicism on Fire, and we'll put all theselinks in the show notes for you
if you're listening to this.
But it's really just a wayof growing as a human being.
And it sounds like you're on an awesomejourney for yourself inside of pickleball.
(41:00):
Yeah, it's fun.
Finally, I think we said this before therecording, so I just want to
just touch on this.
I got into this to useeverything else I was using off the
pickleball court tohelp me play pickleball.
And what I've learned is that now,pickleball has become a place where I get
to practice all these other toolsthat I can bring into my life.
(41:22):
Again, pickleball is a part of my life.It's not who I am.
It never will be.
I got engaged.
I'm excited to start a I love my family.
I have great friends.
I love pickleball.
It's all who I am.
So to me, I think the coolest part aboutpickleball, and this is a thinker for
people, is a lot of times in your life,you're not Everyone's in different
(41:45):
places, but you're not pushed, I think.
Maybe you have some work deadlines orwhatever, but if you're working a normal
job, a lot of times you'rejust doing what you have to do.
And I said, Pimbleball is special becauseyou will be I'm just talking mentally
here, physically, obviously,but everyone gets that.
You get in what you put out.
Put in 100 % effort, play for five hours,you're going to be tired and sore, help
(42:08):
your muscle lose weight, all that stuff.
But mentally, you will bepushed every time you play.
I talk to my dad, he'slike, My dad was upset.
My dad plays 375, 4-0, pickleball.
And he's like, I wasangry that I was losing.
My mom's like, My sister and I...She's a twin.
She's like, Sissy and Idid not play well today.
It was not fun.And she's like, I was working on.
So to me, every time I go out on court, Iknow I'm going I'm going to be pushed and
(42:31):
put in a placeclose to where I'm or into that
uncomfortable shots aren't going my way.
Not everything's working perfectly.
Once in a while, everything goes great.Very rarely, though.
Almost always, it's that growth mindset.
So I went fromdoing all the stoicism, life, work,
meditation I work on, that's a huge toolthat stoicism and Michael Singer both
talk about just being with your thoughts.
(42:52):
But I did all that just tobe calm around the court.
Now I use all of that, like those toolsworking on the court so that I can
bring that into the rest of my life.
And I can speak for myself.
I was very close to my grandfather,and he died two months ago.
And if this was a year or two ago,I think I would have been just...
(43:14):
I don't know.I don't know how I would have handled it.
I'm fortunate enough,I've really never lost anybody, none
of my close family for most of my life.
And so losing him was really hard.
And when I was in India whenit happened, and I was okay.
And obviously, but again,the stuff we talk about.
And I said, there was no truer applicationfor me than being able to say, I really am
(43:38):
just happy,blessed, honestly, to be able to have all
the memories and have got to be presentwith him for all the time I did.
And I had him until I was in my 20s.He was 95.
So it's not like he was a young.
But even if I only got to spend the yearwith him, I can't go and
get more time with him.
So there's no pointlamenting over that to me.
(43:58):
I don't know.
And like I said, I don'tthink I would have thought that
when I started this journey.
But now I really do think that.
And I have some sadness when I think thatI'm not going to be able to
see him again, of course.
But again, it's more like joy thinkingabout who he was and who he was to me
and all the time I got spend together.
And looking at it now, I mean, I wouldlike to be like that all the time.
I mean, there's no reasonthat I ever want to be sad.
(44:21):
If I am sad, that's okay.
I'm not going to punishmyself for that or anything.
But I don't ever want to be angry and sadand make my day and
other people's day worse.
If I can, I want to be a happyperson who enjoys living.
And if that's for one more year or50 or 60 or 70 more years, great.
I'll enjoy as many days as I have left.
I think that's the attitude I wantto bring to the rest of my life.
(44:42):
And that's what I talkabout on my channels.
It's what I love talking about with you.
I'd love to do this again.
I work with some other podcasts.
I'm trying to get as involved as possibleand help as many people and
just open up this conversation.
I feel like Pickleball has given us aninteresting platform where I think
in the West, more than the East, not WestCoast, West side of the world, this is
something that just isn't talked about.
(45:03):
Recently, in the last 10 years, though, Ifeel like people are focusing
more on mental health and stuff.
My fiance was a psychology major.She was huge into it.
I literally still remember in high school,in the college, I literally was
like, I just think it's mambo jumbo.
I was like, I don't think I really...
I was like, I just thinkjust toughen up a little bit.
And that's just how I thought aboutsports and life, just toughen up.
(45:24):
And now I think it's apractice the same way.
Why do we...
We have this disease,where we think that...
I mean, I don't think I could go out andshoot Steph Curry if I don't practice,
but yet I think I can just changesomething mentally without any practice.
We go just like, Stop.Just stop being sad.
(45:44):
Don't work on it, just do it.
Where else in life do we justpick something up and do it?
Nowhere.
But yet we think with our mental game,we're frustrated that we continue to fail.
But I know I shouldn't be frustrated if Icontinue to fail at my third shot drop,
I'm going to work on itand keep getting better.
Same thing mentally, right?
And you will see progress.
I mean, I saw progress,fulfilled a ton of progress.
(46:06):
Like I said, he's an unbelievable person,just an amazing person
who always amazed me at how he carriedhimself, and I never understood how he
was able to carry himself like that.
And I still don't carrymyself anywhere like he does.
But I'm able to see how he's able tounderstand the situations presented to him
and really be objective about the worldaround them because he really
(46:26):
has that amazing perspective.
You're You're in your year two of his35-year practice, so you're
getting your lips in now.
That's what he says.
He's like, you're in your infancy still.
You're a young Padawanstudent of mental parts.
But the interesting is, andI'm going to close on this.
I thinkthe last message there, the idea that the
(46:51):
benefit you'll gain from your mental work,just reflecting on a few things at a time,
just a little bit of time,continuing to apply it, both to your
pickle ball and then using that as yourreps, so you can have a fuller life and
helping you deal withthings like your grandpa.
Obviously, sorry to hear about yourgrandfather, but congratulations
on your engagement.
So Richard, listen, Ilove this conversation.
(47:16):
I love the journey you're on.I applaud you for your, A, for yourself.
That's awesome in and of itself.
But B, more so for your willingness tospread it with others, to take the
stuff that's been shared with by yourcoach, Bill, by Michael, by the other
resources that you'vecome across and consumed.
Now you're sharing it, payingit forward, so to speak.
(47:38):
So I really appreciate you doing that.
Oh, one more thing.
I know that some playerslistening to this are going to want to
know more about Richard and whatyou're doing with your content.
You and I spoke beforehand.
I want to let everybody know Richard hassome YouTube content,
Insta following stuff.
If you're into that stuff, we'll putit down in the in the show notes.
(48:00):
And so definitely, if you want to followthis, find young player and young man and
thinker of the game and the mentalside, I recommend you do that.
Richard, it was a pleasure to have youon the Pickup Out There Every podcast.
Absolutely a pleasure.
I just wanted to say Yeah, my content is alot the same way we talk
about the mental side.I dig into a lot of the physical stuff.
I do a lot of tip videos,and I do all that stuff.
(48:22):
So if you're interested in any of that,I'd love to connect with you
on Insta or YouTube as well.
100 %.Thank you a lot, I really appreciate it.
I told you guys, that was afantastic interview with Richard.
Just interesting insights, differentway of approaching things with stoicism.
I actually started listening to thepodcast, Stoicism on Fire, and it It's
(48:45):
just been really interesting so far.
I'm on episode three, I believe is thenumber I'm on, starting from the
beginning, but really interesting stuff,and I'm looking forward to going into it,
learning more about stoicism andcontinuing to grow my
mental journey as well.
As always, if you have a moment to rateand review the podcast, please do
so and share it with your friends.
This podcast is something that helps a lotof pickleball players, and the more who
(49:08):
know about it, the more canbenefit from its content.
Be well, and I'll see you during the nextregular episode of pickleball Therapy.
Be well.
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