Have you ever stood at the crossroads of change, your identity shimmering like a mirage on the horizon? Ashleigh Renard joins us in this heartfelt journey through the ebbs and flows of personal evolution. Together, we peel back the layers of our lives, sharing stories of love and faith, the transformative power of self-reflection, and the bravery it takes to be true to oneself. We delve into Ashleigh's memoirist journey—how she hung up her ice skates, graced the writer's desk, and saw her life leap from page to screen.
If you've ever felt tangled in the expectations of gender roles or puzzled over the dynamics of monogamous relationships, this conversation is for you. We unravel the misconceptions about women's desires, the impact of patriarchy on sexual relationships, and the importance of assertiveness in intimacy. Our dialogue dances through the nuances of modern dating, from sifting through dating apps to the effects of surviving breast cancer on personal connections. We explore how success and vulnerability intertwine, shaping our relationships and leading us to discover what truly resonates in partnerships.
As we wrap up this tapestry of personal anecdotes and shared experiences, we reflect on the spirit of triumph and the power of setting intentions for a joyous year ahead. We discuss the beauty in acknowledging past growth, embracing 'new mistakes only,' and even the fulfillment that can come from intimacy. Join us as we celebrate our personal triumphs, from nurturing parenting to transforming our living spaces, and set the stage for a year of celebration, connectivity, and continued self-discovery.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi there, welcome to Peace of Work the podcast.
I'm Danielle Tanton.
I'm a nurse, author, coach andsurvivor.
I love inspiring people to livetheir best life, reach for
those big dreams and find joyeven in the pain.
As I wrote my memoir over somany years, trying to make sense
of a story where I was way toooften the bad guy instead of the
(00:28):
hero, I came to understand thatwe are all a piece of work, but
we're also a work in progress,and even in our messiness we are
a work of art too.
All at the very same time, infact, we are all beautifully
unique pieces of one masterpiecewaves in the same ocean.
This podcast will explore thestories and struggles that make
(00:50):
us human, the miracles thatsurround us and all the ways we
work to make sense of it all.
Welcome to Peace of Work thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Okay.
Well, I'm so excited to talk toyou, ashley.
I'm not feeling great today.
I woke up with kind of a weirdupset stomach, but so I'm at
home in my blurred backgroundhome office.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Hopefully this conversation sets you on the
path to healing, Danielle.
Hopefully it's like unsettledand then clarity comes in and
all clear.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, I love your energy and you're so much about
you and I'm in your presence alot, even though we haven't
talked live in a while.
This is the second time you'reon my podcast and, believe it or
not, I only have about 30episodes and this is the second
one you're on, so that's apretty high percentage Amazing.
(01:50):
Thank you for having me back.
I've been watching your journeyand we'll give a little intro
to everything you've been doing,but I've seen you evolve and I
feel like you and I are just onsuch a similar path similar but
different and that's why I thinkthat's one of the reasons I
feel so connected with you andso interested in what you're
(02:14):
doing.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
And I think, danielle , it's because it's a path that
a lot of women are on right now,a lot of humans collectively
really assessing wait a minute,and for a lot of us this
happened before pandemic, but ithappened in a collective way
during pandemic.
People are pausing and sayingwait a minute, maybe I don't
have to do things the way I'vealways done them.
(02:36):
Maybe, just because this iswhat's expected of me, I can
take a pause and ask myself ifI'm really going to do that or
if I'm maybe going to startdoing the opposite in some
situations.
And for a lot of us, ourworldview is really based on
doing things that are expected.
(02:57):
I mean, child psychologistswill tell you about this.
Everybody talks about the thingsthat we experienced from birth
to age seven really imprint onus how the world works and how
we stay safe and how we keep thepeople around us in a pleasant
mood, how we keep our caregivers, how do we push their buttons
(03:21):
or how do we stay out of theirway, or how do we get good
attention, how do we get badattention?
What happens or what are we toldabout ourselves?
When we ask for too much, thenwhat are the ways that we start
taking a look at our patternsand really start discerning what
is helping me and what ishelping me feel joyous, free,
(03:45):
plugged in, connected, lovingtowards the people in my family,
really overflowing withgenerosity to friends, what is
making me feel filled up andwhat behaviors am I doing on my
own accord every single day thatare really driving me into the
ground and are pushing a wedgebetween me and the people
(04:08):
closest to me?
It's really this, reckoning,this coming to terms with how
much of our life can we do onautopilot and are we willing to
start taking a look, one by one,almost like the Conmarie right?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I love that I did that.
I did that with my clothes.
Why not do it here?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I know right, but just to really take a look at
every limiting belief or everylittle thought that comes up,
every automatic thing that yourbrain or your body does, and you
say, wait a minute, do I wantto keep doing that or do I want
to pause long enough to say, ooh, is there a better way that I
could do this?
You and I have both beenthrough those things with love
(04:51):
and illness and physical andemotional well-being and
figuring out okay, how can Ireally?
What does a life of integrityfeel like?
It feels like when I'm being mytrue self.
And when I'm being my true self, how much more can I offer
others and how many feathers amI willing to ruffle to be true
(05:15):
to me, even when people aroundme may not understand?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, and that's sort of been the story of my life.
And when you publish a memoir,especially one like either of
ours, where they're so personaland very it's just personal
about our love life and ourfaith life and our inner life.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Revealing.
I would say really right, right, you open, we both open right
up and say not everybody talksabout that.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Especially, you know some of the circles that we may
run in.
I mean, you know I have a lot avery conservative Christian
circle, and then I you mentionedworld view earlier I have
almost two world views competingfor my.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
You know my heart and Because there is so new, so
much nuance, yeah, there's somuch nuance and and Danielle, to
have that Space for that bit ofcuriosity right to say like,
wait a minute, I feel pulled inthis direction.
I pulled this endure in thisdirection.
And what can I learn from thetension?
(06:18):
What can I learn from actuallynot being able to just slap a
label on my own beliefs or onwhat I think is right or wrong
right now or or, like you knowwe've been, we've been really
asked to take a side on so manythings and I think that now the
pendulum is swinging back alittle bit in some conversations
(06:38):
to say, wait a minute, you knowwhat?
It's okay to be on the fencesometimes.
You know we went through thewhole silence as violence and I
don't disagree that that thereis a lot of, a lot of people are
just staying safe in theirprivilege and they're they're
not ruffling feathers andthey're not, you know, taking it
(07:00):
in there in their bottom lineand things like that.
But you know what?
I think that those people arealways gonna be silent.
I think that there are those ofus who need to speak up in the
world and who are writers andmemoirs, but we also need to
know when I don't know if I havea public opinion on every
single thing.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
No, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
I don't have.
I don't have until I can saysomething meaningfully and with
a touch of wit and a universallesson, so that I'm not just
bitching about something ormoaning about my own thing or
whatever.
I I keep, I keep my processinginside and I keep it for, like
(07:40):
one-to-one conversations withfriends and I talk to my kids
about it a lot, you know, and wetoss ideas around between us to
try to understand.
You know when each one of us iscoming from with our
understanding of a situation soagree, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So we talked already a lot, we kind of delved right
in and we didn't reallyintroduce you or talk about.
Talk about who you are and whatyou do and why you're so
interesting to me.
So this is my friend, ashleyRenard.
She is a memoirist, as as wementioned, and I read her book
last year and loved it, butshe's also created a community
(08:15):
and it's it sort of has evolved,and so I'd like you to kind of
give me, give us you.
I want, I want you to introduceyourself as who you, who you
are and who you, who you want tobe in the world.
Yeah, and it changes every day.
Right, it changes every day.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It's been a big, big year for me as far as change
change Totally so.
Okay, ashley Renard, canadianprairie girl, raised in the rink
, I coached and choreographedsynchronized skating for years,
told my stories that way, butalways wanted to be a writer
than 2019 make a time.
(08:51):
Right before pandemic, Iretired from my life on the ice
and I Focused on my writingfull-time and things moved
really quickly, and this was myexperience, I think, danielle.
I think I've done it a lot oftimes, but this is my recent
experience in like full-onbelief Manifestation, jumping
timelines, whatever you want tocall it like really changing the
(09:12):
whole reality around myself,and I've done that so many times
in the last five years.
Since then, I Wrote swing, whichis a Funny, sexy book about how
, as a perfectionist mom, I tookdoing it all to the next level
as the world's worst attemptedswinger, and it was a
(09:35):
well-received and commerciallysuccessful book that people have
loved and it's been optionedfor film and that has brought up
so many more issues for me asfar as being visible and and
that is the catalyst for my nextmemoir because the the reality
(09:57):
Trick that's played on yourselfwhen you're asking yourself wait
a minute, like who do I reallywant to be cast as me, and Do I
do?
Do I really want to be knownfor this thing?
And has that ship alreadysailed?
And and and?
Is it just a thing I made?
It you know is?
Is swing just a thing I made?
That's like a fruit that'sfallen off my branches years ago
(10:19):
, or is it me, like all of thesethings that come with?
I can really Much of whatyou're saying.
Come with success.
Come with goals still notachieved.
Come with potential.
Come with Can I just move on tosomething else?
Come with what is?
What is the energetic loyalty Iowe to this creative project?
(10:39):
Or how much freedom do I giveit?
I actually did this ritual acouple months ago, danielle, and
your eyes make it big, my kidseyes.
When I told them this, theywere Like you, what?
I burnt an entire copy of swing.
I ripped the cover off and thenI ripped page by page by page
and just tossed it into a fire.
And it was so Amazing because Igot to see the first few words
(11:02):
on every other page and then Istarted Few.
Well, I just like oh, that's theplace in the book.
It was sort of this Pacingthrough the book.
You know I've read it, I'vereread it, I've edited it, I
narrated the audiobook twice butI'm sure it like that right, it
was this really physical sortof like, almost a walking
(11:23):
through it, because it was likea rhythmic thing and what I did
was I treated it like a, like achild that I was launching into
the world.
So like I'm an empty nester now, like I've done what I need to
free and now you can go and bewhat you want to be.
I love that.
I think that's so because Istill had so much attachment and
aversion to like.
I hope it's this, I hope it'snot that you know like it's we
(11:44):
share such a revealing way.
We, we, yeah, we really have nocontrol over what people do
with our story and that'sinfuriating.
And it's a constant act ofsurrender and a constant act of
release.
Because that book was aboutrehabbing my shabby marriage and
how I figured so many thingsout about my perfectionism and
(12:06):
shifted my marriage and myparenting, and all of those
things are true.
And also we came up againstanother marriage renovation that
was needed a couple years ago,when we we have three boys
they're 16, 14 and 10 now butthe summer that our oldest
turned 15 and he got taller thanme and he entered high school.
(12:27):
I felt the incredible shift inour Dynamic as far as a quality
in our family.
It was like my spot on thefamily totem pole shifted and
all of a sudden, teenage kidDanielle the kid who just got
hair on his balls is like aboveme.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Wow in rank.
So tell us just yeah, you're.
You were married to a.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Greek man, a Greek Orthodox man, who was a very
nice guy and a very hands-on dad, and For anybody who's married
to a nice guy, you know thatthat is a double-edged fucking
sword, because sometimes theyjust hide behind that nice guy
demeanor and they never take astand for anything, they never
(13:13):
stick their neck out, they justdo enough to be considered the
nice guy.
And Collectively, we have seena lot of times where especially
the nice white man gets introuble for, yeah, doing nothing
right or allowing something tohappen.
Because I mean, studies haveshown for a very long time that
(13:36):
if someone is to stand up andhold someone else accountable or
to stand up and keep Someoneelse safe, it's usually a woman.
It's usually a woman's a femalestranger who will do that for
other people.
Men have really been able tojust like, not say anything,
keep their proximity to power,you know what, by not
disagreeing with this guy.
So I should have just be holdDaniel that in my own house,
(13:59):
like how my husband would wantto like stay bros with a 15 year
old, so like wouldn't back meup and it was all.
Is this culmination of years ofnot being backed up on the kids
chores, not really having apartner and like, okay, wait a
minute.
These things are important tome with the kids.
This is why I think we shouldget off screens and, you know,
(14:22):
get into the bed with some booksor something a little earlier.
All of these things that werepoo pooed and kind of like, oh,
I don't know if it's thatimportant.
All of a sudden you know this.
This teenager has ideas that arelike, oh, okay and giving
Credence, and I'm like wait aminute, I Thought you sort of
(14:44):
ignored kind of anything youdidn't understand.
But it seems like you know,when you're motivated, when our
teenage son wants you tounderstand something, or when a
male stranger wants you tounderstand something, your brain
works really quickly.
And when I, as your wife of 21years, and try to explain
something to you, it's veryfoggy.
(15:04):
So maybe, maybe it's not yourcomprehension, maybe it's the
way that you're able to treat meand see me as only a fraction
of a full human when I'm a womanliving in your house.
It's so interesting becauseit's so.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
This, this whole subject, is something so
different than even any of thesubjects that you explored In
your in your book, and that'sthe whole point is like your
book, like you said earlier, itwas one fast.
It was like about one part ofyour life.
It was about you know one themeand Then you have a whole life
and I what I saw as a, as askind of a someone sitting back
(15:42):
inside your community a littlebit.
I couldn't believe the judgmentof some people like I guess
there's always that there'salways naysayers, especially
when you are being visible andyou're living out loud.
I Couldn't believe the judgmentof people over you getting a
divorce after.
After trying to talk to peopleabout about having monogamous
(16:07):
Relationships.
I'm like, so she, because webelieve in her monogamous,
because Ashley believed in not amonogamous Relationships and
still does, probably.
I mean, like I do.
I do using a divorce for her ownpersonal marriage because it's
the best way.
You're like, you're gonnayou're gonna say oh my gosh,
everything you taught me.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
How can I?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
even believe what you taught me.
I was like, I was so angry.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
It was so it was so funny.
It was so funny, danielle,because I mean, it was hard from
an identity and I like, wait aminute, what do I know about
communication and what can Itrust that I know about
Relationships?
It was hard from like apersonal standpoint of like, oh
(16:52):
god, I, I can't make my marriagework.
And Should I now be sayinganything about marriage?
Because, well, for, for alittle bit I was like I don't
want to say anything.
If I talk about marriage, I'mjust gonna tell everybody, like
get divorced, it's too hard,just fucking.
Never mind.
Like let's everybody just Maybeour kids will figure out a new
(17:13):
way to do marriage, but like wedon't know if this isn't it, I
but I just kept it.
I talked to friends and Ijournaled a much therapy and I
deep burned with my ex becausewe kept things Really private
for months, for months.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah.
So then when you make theannouncement, everyone's like
what the heck?
What I?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
thought you guys were fine, I thought you guys were
great right and the majority ofpeople were really great.
There were some people who werelike the same men.
This is the thing, danielle.
It's not hard to figure out themen who'd had a problem with
this.
The men who had a problem withme getting divorced and not
saying in my marriage were thesame men who would write me DMs
(17:55):
saying, oh my God, if only mywife was more like you, my sex
life would be and my life wouldbe amazing.
Okay, they think there's amagic pill Like oh, if my wife
just liked sex, like Ashleylikes sex, my life would be
great.
No, if you would actually justlisten to your wife, she would
(18:16):
be able to tell you what shelikes.
You would be able to say theseare the things that I like, and
she would be able to say, yeah,this is what turns me off about
that.
And you would be able to haveenough creativity and enough
worldview and enough of anunderstanding that, as men and
women, you're not against eachother.
Because the people who were inmy audience and who really were
(18:37):
getting what I was saying foryears about men and women let's
just look at each other as, like, unique and incredible and
potentially annoying.
Individual means unique andincredible and potentially
annoying individual.
Let's figure out the uniqueways that we are.
All of those things Not.
(18:57):
But patriarchy sets us up to saymen and women want different
things in life.
We want different things inlife, danielle, did you know?
Women want sex, women don'twant sex.
Great, what do women want?
Not even true.
It turns out women just need aman to provide for them.
That's actually when we look atpatriarchy.
We're like men want sex andwomen need a man.
(19:19):
So it's like what?
Well, like it all starts tobreak down really fast.
You're like wait, what are wetalking about?
But then men and women getmarried and instead of saying,
hey, I would like this to bebetter for both of us, can we
talk Assumptions, assumptions,assumptions, assumptions.
Talk to your buddies, talk toyour friends assumptions,
assumptions.
(19:40):
And then we have this wholeparadigm where there are
millions of men who believe,yeah, women don't really like
sex, but if your wife's niceenough or likes you enough,
they'll do it with you.
We have totally forgotten thatsex is a fun thing for both, for
(20:01):
all genders, for almost anybodywho has a healthy body, and
asexual individuals have adifferent place in this right,
but for most people sex is great.
And then for most people, thereare weird things that happen to
(20:22):
us Hangups and things that getin the way we get hangups right.
Yeah, that if you have a greatpartner, wonderful.
You actually have aworkshopping partner to work
through your own weird hangupsand even take weird fantasies
and go.
This is weird, but what is itabout it that turns me on?
Oh, it's like this sort ofdynamic and looking more at what
(20:44):
is either the power play,that's kind of a turn on, or the
power play that's kind of aturn off, like man, if they're
incompetent in the kitchen orsomething like that sort of
incompetent child sort of energyis like the opposite of sexy,
right, like I recently did apoll, danielle and 95% of my
(21:10):
audience polled said that theywanted their partner to be more
assertive in the bedroom.
Okay, and I don't think itmeans that we all just want to
be totally submissive or like wewant to be like tied up slaves
or something.
I think what it means and thisis men and women across the
board 95% of people want theirpartner to be more dominant.
(21:31):
This is what we want.
We want our partner to beconfident.
We want our partner to look andseem sexy, whether that's like
them taking control or textingyou and being like hey, I'm
going to be home in 20 minutes.
I want you to be waiting for mein this place.
I want you to be wearing this,I want you right, whatever it is
, and, like your listeners or myaudience members, when I throw
(21:56):
out these different ideas, oneof them will light up for them
and they'll be like, oh, that'sthe thing, right.
And then they'll talk withtheir partner and they'll be
like that's the thing for you,this is the thing for me.
Oh, isn't that interesting?
And to really look at this,danielle, any sort of needs,
whether they're emotional needs,sexual needs, whatever they are
, I don't think human needs areever in opposition with each
(22:19):
other.
So, you know, you and I couldbe friends and have very
specific needs for what we needon a Thursday afternoon and we
could hang out together allafternoon and we could both get
our needs met.
It wouldn't take very muchpatience or creativity to figure
out.
What is it about that sushirestaurant you like?
Oh, you like that.
(22:39):
It's by the water.
You know what?
There's this cafe over here.
It doesn't take very muchcreativity because we assume, oh
, we're friends, we're going tohave a great afternoon, we can
figure out lots of ways to makethis fun.
But men and women going into thebedroom together thinking, oh
yeah, we're already on differentteams here for different things
(23:00):
that we want out of this.
We have to tolerate each otherto come together to do this, get
through it Right.
To get through it, because ifwe're not doing it we're going
to feel really weird about it.
But even when we do it it feelsa little weird because, like
there's parts of it that we knowthings that are being unsaid or
things that, like we thinkmaybe the other person wants,
(23:21):
but they're not asking and we'renot going to break Danielle,
the amount of uncertainty likeliterally I have more clarity
with my Instacart person everytime I order groceries than most
people have when they're havingsex with their partner.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, Because it's like I think the relationship
can get in the way too.
You know, if you, if you're notseeing eye to eye, if you're,
if you're in a, if you're havinga lot of people, maybe this
isn't even the case for you,because but but if you ask me,
ask me, well, I was going to sayyou know, I'm also going
through a divorce.
To me, when you're, when I,when I'm having issues in our
(24:00):
relationship, it affects the sex, because it's like almost like
you close yourself off and youdon't even want to let yourself
enjoy it, and so you have tobecause I can't.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I I cannot be intimate with someone unless I
feel physically safe and gettingalong and happy with them.
Like I can't have sex if we'refighting.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I can't even have makeup sex because, honestly, my
nervous system has to likeactually I can, unfortunately,
and I can go through the motionsand they can do this.
We're going through the motions.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, okay, but here's the thing let's pause
this.
Let's pause this and back it up.
Let's pause this and back it up.
You can have makeup sex,unfortunately, okay.
Okay, either you're going tostop having makeup sex or you're
going to be grateful for thefact that you can have it, right
, and you're going to keephaving it and you're going to
(24:51):
say this is something that Icontinue doing because I want
the connection after orsomething.
There's something about it thatdoesn't feel great, but there
is a part of me that continuesto do it.
Yeah, so then you can say toyourself okay, if this is
something I keep doing because,I don't know, maybe it really
feels like you need to repairand like having that physical
(25:12):
connection after.
To not do it would feel unsafe,you know.
So then, you know what?
Change your mindset and say,okay, I'm going to make it the
best fucking orgasm, or I'mgoing to be wild, or I'm going
to be really bratty anddemanding.
Whatever Right, like, make it,make it great.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
That's the part I couldn't do.
I was unable to do it.
It was for me, it was goingthrough the motions because of
the where our relationship was.
Yeah, and it was obvious.
You know, I tried, but it was.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
But thinking about that going forward in other
relationships.
Just think about how you wantto approach breakup sex.
Is it going to be a yes?
No, it's going to be, but it'sgoing to be like have it be an
intentional thing?
Yeah, like I don't like how Idid breakup sex before.
So if we're going to havebreakup sex partner, we got to
talk about this.
And that is the great thingabout dating in your 40s, people
(26:10):
want to have honestconversations.
Before every first date I go on, I have a phone conversation.
That's usually.
I've shared this in myInstagram stories like one to
three hours.
The guy I'm dating right now wespoke for eight hours, the
first two hours, the first twohours the night that we were
talking.
Yeah, we matched on a Thursday,then that Friday we talked for
(26:31):
eight hours, so talk about the.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
How are you, do you do the apps Like?
I mean, I don't even seeingthis guy now.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
So but this guy we've only been dating for a few
weeks.
We met in December the guy I'mdating right now.
So the way I'm dating is usingBumble, one app, one profile,
going on little spurts where Iswipe for a bit every day Like
it's my job.
I talk to a bunch of guys atonce, sometimes line up a few
(27:02):
phone conversations If I reallylike talking to them.
Then a date which leads to somereally fun first dates.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It's led to a couple Because you know them pretty
well by the time you see them, Iwanted to kiss it for a site's
date.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Wow, I mean, that was kind of right.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, no, I mean, I've had some pretty intimate
conversations.
So I only did.
I did a different app, I didhinge and I did it for about 48
hours.
So that's it.
What scared you off so quickly?
I didn't, nothing turned me off, I just was overwhelmed by.
I had like 50 different matchesand I was like, okay, this is
(27:37):
enough, I don't need any, Idon't need to continue staying
active, and I met a few peoplethat I liked and I'm only one
person.
I mean, I can only handle somuch the amount of attention
that I have gotten as a 49 yearold woman with no nipples, which
that's the whole conversation.
So I was like so you know thatI went through breast cancer and
(27:59):
I had a double mastectomy and Ihad, I had no nipples.
I now have tattooed nipplesthat I got a couple of weeks ago
that are beautiful and I kindof want to show the world, show
them to the world, and but so II started asking myself when?
When do you bring that up, liketo somebody?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And my answer is because of my personality, I
pretty much bring it up rightaway.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Like and, danielle, that is probably something that
really attracts men to you.
Cause this is what I found indating is I'm not coy, I don't
play games, I lay it out there,I don't try to act cool, I'm
kind of dorky, I'm like whatever.
Sometimes, danielle, duringthat first conversation, I might
(28:46):
be like I need to pee, but Iwant to keep talking.
You're going to hear, you'regoing to hear me pee right now
because I just I'm going to muteit cause whatever.
But I'm like gettingcomfortable with someone.
Honestly, I think it's fromsports too, like you know, if
you're like thrown into like aroommate situation at like a
camp or something it's like,let's get comfortable.
We all know where this ishopefully going.
(29:08):
But but just the, thewillingness to be real and to
like flow with things and to beinterested in them and to not
like make them work for it asfar as, like you know, I I mean
(29:31):
it just allows.
I think what I feel for men islike their defenses are dropped
and then the conversations wehave are really great and then,
even if it doesn't work out,danielle, even if it doesn't
work out, there has been thisconnection that I can say you
know, this isn't, this isn'tworking out, or I'm not where I
(29:51):
wanted to be, or I need a breakfrom this.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Well, and sometimes I don't know about you, but you
might have a really good rapportand you're, you guys get along
great and it's a really funbanter.
And then when you meet them,there's just not a physical
chemistry Like it.
Just even though you thoughtyou had it, you had that
emotional connection, youthought they looked good in the
pictures, it was just there'sjust not a connection.
Not a connection physically.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
I know there, I've had that, I've had that, I've
had it too.
This is what I'm realizing howmuch my mind and my story and my
buy-in to like this dynamic orthis attraction can turn me on
right and get me excited.
And I've used it a lot,Danielle, too, for getting
(30:39):
excited about writing ideas, forreally tuning it, Like me too.
Because when you're chattingwith someone or just starting
the dating, there's like there'sthe fantasy fantasy levels
turned up.
It's like a drug, right, it'sreally like a drug.
So you're like endorphins andyour excitability is already
(31:00):
kind of primed, so what I haveused that to do, and sometimes
I'll just be like boy crazy fora week or so but really we are
so much alike in that.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I got some kids and I got a business, and now I have
this.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I kind of need to do some other things.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
I got this house, I got a paperwork, so I got to
keep running a business, becausenone of these men are sugar
daddy situations.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I'm never going to get choosing those either.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
But, danielle, I've asked myself because I've dated
a few different kinds of men andmost of them have graduate
degrees and a lot of them havegraduated or teach at Ivy League
schools around PhiladelphiaBecause, like you know, for like
the area that I live in andliberal politics, and just like
(31:54):
the ways that I'm swiping, I'vehad a certain like a few,
certain kind of men that I'vedated and I've really gotten,
I've had the opportunity to feelinto the dynamic of whether I
want a man who's more successfulthan I am financially and also
if I'm with a man who I thinkmay be jealous of my success
(32:15):
financially or if I'm with a manwho, I think actually wants to
throw it in their ex-wife's face.
Look who I'm dating now, right,and that whole like sort of
trophy energy, that like there'sa piece of it that could feel
good.
And then there's this wholebunch of it that's like wait a
minute, that's part of my appealto you, and then I it's just
(32:40):
how do I feel in these differentareas of my life?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You brought up something that I kind of noticed
.
It's a little different, youknow, but about just
reevaluating your type or what.
The type of guy that you'vealways liked and mine is so
basic.
I've always, always, always,always I can't wait to hear and
attracted to tall guys.
I'm five feet tall, ashley, butI've always been attracted to
tall guys, at least six feet.
(33:05):
One of my exes was six four.
I've always liked tall guys.
It's just like it's the lookthat I'm attracted to long, lean
muscles.
And when I opened my mind andsaid why, like I'm five feet
tall, why am I only a child?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
You're five feet tall , like I'm five, five.
So I was like yeah, what if Idated?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
someone short Like what.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Even if you're short, you're still taller than me.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
How short.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
That's been very interesting to realize that
that's wild, because I I'mtaller is not necessarily better
when you're a small girl Like.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Right, and so have you made out with somebody who's
a shorter height, because it'sa completely different dynamic
the way your body is connected.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
It's way better.
It's actually way morecomfortable.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Right, I know, I know because I'm five, five and I
was married to a man who waslike five, nine for like 20
years, right, and not like fourinches is like Perfect.
Yeah, I mean, it's so perfectbecause you just put your head
up a little bit, you put theirhead down, your head like reach
the rest on their shoulderbecause they're right there,
right.
And then I've dated guys.
(34:09):
In college, though I dated guyswho were like six, four, six,
five.
So I told myself, oh no, no, Idefinitely only want to date
tall guys, ivy League guys, thisand that.
And then I'm dating this guy whohas a plane and on our third
day he flies me to Canada for 11days.
And I'm like, wow, thesegestures feel great, right.
And I'm like, wait a minute,what do I, daniel?
(34:35):
You know the two moments that Istill think about with that guy
.
I dated him for two and a halfmonths.
On our second day he made me acup of tea here at my house and
he brought it over to me and Idon't think a man had ever made
me a cup of tea, start to finish.
And I was like I looked at himand I said to him I really
(35:01):
appreciate you making me thattea.
And he looked at me and he waslike Okay, he was like no, but
thank you.
And I was just like, wow, thenurturing that I am craving, or
the way this nurturing lands forme.
That's the thing that I waslike what really lands?
And then there was this othertime, very sexy.
(35:25):
We're having sex.
He's on top of me and he pushesback my hair like this and he
goes.
You look so beautiful right now.
Boom, done, right.
Those are the tenderness, butyou're not dating him anymore.
And the nurturing.
No, I broke up with him becausehe's really I know it all kind
(35:47):
of jerk, but we did have somegood moments.
We had some good moments.
But for me to realize, and forme now, this guy I've been
seeing for about a month,depending when this air has been
seeing him since beginning ofDecember.
He is so incredibly nurturing,danielle like so that was
(36:14):
important to you.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, you kind of take things from each experience
, right?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
And to see what kind of misses out.
And then I dated this guy whowas so devoted, danielle, like,
so devoted, like he would textme and triplicate Like I adore
you, I adore you, I adore you,wow, I am yours, I am yours, I
am yours.
I was like this is this, isthis is interesting, right?
Yeah, he was so devoted andlike he would just call me.
(36:42):
Actually he called me as prettywitch, which was so.
It was a term of endearment,because he was like are you a
witch?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So I met a witch before.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
I fell in love with a witch when I was in college and
he was like, just, he wasbewitched by me, incredibly, and
I got to feel what that feltlike for him to be like
devotional in his words or hisattention for me, and also to
come over to my house after aretreat and to say what can I
(37:13):
help with?
And say, oh, can you put awaythis, these things, catering
dishes with the lids right there, danielle, and I was debriefing
with with my team and I lookedover 20 minutes later and he was
like I don't know where the tinfoil is and like you don't even
need the tin foil and also youcould open like a cupboard.
(37:35):
But like I was like oh, oh,yeah, like this devotion, but
without the actual.
The thing that I liked about thepilot he was very hands on.
He would help me with thingsaround my house.
You know, even before he put meon his plane, he bought me a
wheelbarrow and brought it overwith his truck and took off his
(37:56):
shirt and helped me set up afountain in the yard and like
replaced light bulbs, like verylike hands on and, like you know
, sort of like this nurturingsort of dad, sort of helpful
masculine way, right.
But then what I got to see withthis guy, wine guy, is what I
call him home dating, right nowis like whoa, these like really
(38:22):
kind words about what heappreciates about me.
And then this, like boots on theground, let me fix you a snack.
Can I pour you a littleprosecco?
Oh, let me put this cheese inyour mouth.
You go sit down, I'm just gonnamake risotto.
Well, you tell me again thatinteresting thing you were
telling me.
(38:42):
I mean Danielle, I mean it'sreally like I'm really getting
into, like he's now cooked forme with me to prep food for my
kids twice now the week on theSunday before they come, because
my ex and I switched back andforth on Mondays week on week
(39:02):
off, which I love the schedule.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah, we have a similar schedule, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
And I love being with my kids half the time.
I'm gonna say it, I prefer itbecause I got really sad about a
month after I left and I waslike fuck him.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
They're missing him.
They're working harder.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I need to be here, but I'm the one so long.
I mean, the kids are going backand forth, but I was the one
who moved to and then I was kindof in that self pity for a few
minutes and then I said tomyself integrity check, fucking
integrity check.
Do you really want to go back?
If you could go back to asituation where you would have
(39:42):
the kids 100% of the time,whether that meant new husband
drops in, whether that meansex-husband miraculously becomes
a different, whatever you canhave, whatever you want, ashley,
do you want the kids full time?
And it's like, actually no, Ireally like my freedom.
And it's like, then stopitching about that.
And that's something that'sbeen and it's just an internal
process, being honest.
Yeah, it's just an internalprocess because our ego can have
(40:06):
us feeling self pity when,danielle, actually we got what
we wanted and we had just neverbeen I loved my new house, it's
very beautiful and exciting wehad never been honest with
ourselves about what we and Imean I think for some of us
that's the reason our marriagesdidn't work is because we were
(40:27):
trying to make this one thingwork but it really wasn't a fit
in so many different ways thatwe are so lucky they never got
it together in that specific way.
And there was finally thatfinal straw, because our
possibility for expansion andintegrity and authentic living
because I mean being in amarriage is a hard thing because
(40:50):
you've got a partner you've gotto keep working on things with
and a lot of people just don'thave the level of self-awareness
and honesty.
And this is what was ultimatelythe thing with the pilot.
He really he presented himselfas having more self-awareness
and integrity and ability tolook at his ego and be called
out on things than he actuallyhad.
(41:11):
And it was hard because hewould be really a know-it-all
and really get into this kind ofI told you so energy and
doubled down, which for me hewas like a minor league version
of my mom.
So it triggered in me.
(41:32):
It was really valuable becauseit got to show me how I still
have this codependent dance thatI'll do to try to motivate
other people towards kindness,to try to make them feel
appreciated enough so that Idon't really seem like a burden,
because they're kind of actinglike they're annoyed, even
though I'm like we don't have todo that.
Thank you, I just want you toknow that I appreciate you.
(41:53):
And he's like oh yeah, it'sfine, it's fine, but then, like
redoing things that electriciandid, just to say you could do it
, that's fucking weird behavior.
No, like we're right to justknow, like what is going on,
what is getting along withsomeone, and then what is the
line that we're not going tocross again, that we're going to
(42:15):
say no, no, no, no, no newmistakes, only moving forward.
We learned our lessons.
We learned a lot of them thehard way.
We want to hold on to that.
Whether they were earned easilyor hard, our lessons are our
lessons and let's give reverenceto the part of us that learned
(42:39):
that, the younger version ofourselves that went through that
, walked through those flames tolearn it, by saying I'm not
going to forget it Because Iremember the words.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
I'm not going to make the same mistake again.
I might make new mistakes.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
New mistakes.
Only that's the teacher that Iwanted to get made when I left
skating Because I was like whoa.
I know what integrity feelslike and I know what it feels
like.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
I have made some of the same mistakes that we're in
over for so long.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Because you're human, because you're human and
because we don't know the lessonyet, when we keep making the
mistake, we were muddled on thelesson and we were probably
learning other things, but thatone has to keep coming up for us
until and then, danielle, whenwe really see it, when we really
(43:27):
see it and there's resonanceand we feel it is truth, even
our ego can't argue against itanymore and it just drops, it
just falls away.
And then we're onto newmistakes, only in that
department, because it was ohlike the feeling of quiet and
(43:50):
knowing that you get.
When you're like, oh, I need todrop this, or oh, this is never
the healing fantasy I havearound.
This is never gonna come true.
That's the thing.
Because we want things to begreat.
When we were kids, when we wereyoung people, when we were
(44:11):
starting our marriages, when wewere young moms, we wanna do a
good job, we wanna get alongwith the people around us and
humans are complicated, so webump up against each other and
then we start compromising andsacrificing our integrity,
because then we think, whenthey're doing better, they're
gonna realize what I compromisedand then it's gonna come back
(44:32):
to me.
We are the arbiters of our ownexperience 100% and we get to
decide what goes out and whatcomes in right.
And learning how to do that ininterdependence with other
people, I think is some of thegreat healing work that we've
(44:52):
been called to do here in ourlifetime, and that's why paying
attention to these experiencesand sharing about them in the
ways that we do is so valuableto people, because there is an
easier way.
I think we are wired forharmony, we are wired for
expansion, we are wired forascension as humans, but there
(45:14):
are so many human parts.
Our human parts really trip usup.
You know, just having yeah,just walking people through our
own stories so they can see abit of a possibility or
(45:35):
framework or the proverbiallight at the end of the tunnel,
and I love that.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
I love that you brought that up, because that's
one of the things I wanted tojust talk about with you is just
using your own story, sharingyour own story to help other
people and to connect with other, because I think you are living
out loud To some extent.
Obviously, there's a wholeprivate life that goes on that
(46:01):
we're not seeing, and it can beeasy for some people to look at
that and me too and judge youfor that, like, why are you
sharing your nipples to everyone?
Why are you sharing your datinglife?
Why are you talking about yourdivorce and just see you as
being narcissistic or whatever.
(46:21):
But that's, I don't think it is.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
I think that we all know our motivations and one of
the things that I had to askmyself multiple times a day when
I was writing swing, when I wasquerying agents, when the book
was being published I meanthousands and thousands and
(46:53):
thousands of times I askedmyself why am I sharing this
story?
Because there are scary partsto this.
Why am I being like it's sortof an exhibitionist sort of
share?
And why is it, I would askmyself.
And the reason I always keptcoming up with?
(47:16):
Because I would ask myself do Ijust fucking want attention?
Am I just like?
Am I an attention whore?
Do I just want money?
Do I have fucking daddy?
What is my reason for sharingthese things that most people
would keep private?
And my reason was, danielle,that my shame screamed so loudly
(47:39):
in my ears every day that Icould never tell anybody that
story.
And you know what, when I wouldlook at the reality of this, I
was like okay, listen, actuallyI am a choreographer.
I have worked as a creative mywhole life.
I do coach.
I did coach children.
But I thought you know what, asa creative, changing careers
(48:03):
and writing this story that issexy.
That I also know I can tell in areally funny way that I also
know I'm leading with the sex,but that what I hear all the
time is oh my God, that is abait and switch.
And I'm like I know, becauseit's easier for me to say it's
(48:25):
like the complete idiot's guidefor what not to do in the swing
lifestyle.
Or it's like eat, pray, loveand 50 shades how to baby, and
like that's the book swing.
It's like eat, pray, love, butyou're like instead of going to
India, you're going to like sexclubs on these coast.
Trying to explain the depth ofsomething to somebody is often a
(48:49):
fool's errand.
So for me to say, yeah, here'sthis sexy, funny thing, and for
it to actually have more depth,I would rather it go that way.
And also I knew in sharing thisthat there were gonna be a lot
of people who didn't like it,who it was too much for them,
how it's just too uncomfortablefor them.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
And then I knew there'd be a lot of people who
were like yeah, especially thepeople that know you.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
But here's the thing, danielle me writing a book.
What I had to do was reallytake out everybody who knew me.
The only people I asked myselfabout were, okay, my husband and
my children, who are named inthe book.
Can I do?
I feel like I did write by themin the writing of this?
(49:36):
Yes, for everybody else.
I still have an incredibleamount of shame that I wrote
this book that reminds myparents that I have had sex and
gone to sex clubs.
Like I know, I still carry allof that and I have to go.
No, no, that doesn't.
That may be a thing, but I'mnot letting that affect how I'm
(49:58):
gonna go on with my life.
But I would ask myself why do Ireally wanna do this?
And the answer is because Ithink my writing can help people
and I'm not as embarrassed asother people.
I mean, I'm just not.
I was a performer my whole lifeand I taught people to be a
performer.
Talking about taboo thingsactually grounds me, like when
(50:19):
people are talking about thingsthat make them uncomfortable.
Like I feel calmer.
Like when we're getting to theserious part, I'm like great
people are gonna be more inintegrity, right.
Like I feel safer in thosesituations that people just
joking around and like, or evenplaying a board game and
changing the rules.
That to me, feels unsafe,danielle, because I'm like wait,
(50:41):
everybody needs to know whatthe rules are here.
So, talking about somethingreally taboo and knowing the
rules are, we're probably gonnasay things that are awkward and
that's gonna be okay Incredible,especially for a perfectionist.
Yeah, so, yeah, I don't.
And there may be people who arelike she just wants the, okay,
(51:03):
cool.
There are a lot of people whowant attention online and who
are not building a business.
There are a lot of people whoare selling sex or trying to
sell sex and not making money.
There are a lot of people youknow write an expose, type like
tell all book and it's not abest seller Like you know what I
mean.
Like there are a lot of it'slike Brene Brown.
You know the people in thearena.
(51:24):
Like I, if I am not enamored bysomeone's career, I'm not going
to be considering what theythink about my career.
If I am not in such ravenouslust and appreciation for the
way that their marriage andromantic partnership looks, I'm
(51:46):
not interested in what theythink about my marriage.
I'm not.
So they were like, literally,danielle, there are two couples
in the world who really loveeach other the way that I would
want to be loved and like theyare the only people I would take
advice on from on how to do myrelationships.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Are they specific two couples, like the specific two
couples that you know?
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Okay, Specific two couples that and they were both.
Both of them stayed over at myhouse the night of my birthday
and stayed in the back bedroom.
So I got to be around all fourof them, like during that night
and during my birthday, and likeI got to feel like what it's
like to be celebrated by malefriends who are just so loving
(52:29):
and what it's like to be likecelebrated together by, like, a
couple who loves you together,do you?
Speaker 2 (52:35):
know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
It was just like, yeah, they're real expanders for
me as far as, like what Ibelieve is possible, moving
forward with relationships.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
Oh, my gosh, we've only touched on the.
I still feel like there's somuch more I wanted to explore
with you, but it's I love.
I love talking to you.
I love your energy.
I'm I aspire to be more likeyou.
I'm learning.
I did buy your package.
So tell us, tell everybody,where they can find you and what
(53:10):
, what you kind of things,you're offering these days.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Yeah, Okay, so you can find me at Ashley Renard on
Instagram.
Ashley is A-S-H-L-E-I-G-H, theAshley spelling with all the
extra letters Ashley Renard.
On Instagram, I have lots ofgreat keeping at hot products.
That after dark webinars aresuper popular for people who are
in a relationship or who aresingle, and that's something
(53:32):
that I'm really talking aboutright now, too.
The ways that we can take oursolo play intentionally.
Take our solo play, danielle,whether we are single or whether
we are engaging in solo playwhile we're in a couple, but
that we can use that timeintentionally to experiment with
things that we would like toexperience, or things that we
(53:54):
would like to do with a partnerlater, or climax more quickly,
or climax more often, or likedifferent things that we can do
to then make us a morewell-rounded lover with our next
partners.
Also, keeping it hot tip sheetis a great place to start.
The new version of the tipsheet is about getting your
(54:17):
partner to take the lead, orways that you can take the lead.
Just show a little bit moreassertiveness.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
And that's a free download on your website Free
download yeah.
I've already been one of youron your email list, so I didn't.
I don't think I got that one.
Speaker 3 (54:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
All right.
Well, it's been wonderfultalking to you and I do hope
that I get to attend somethinglive with you soon.
I know you've had some liveretreats and different things.
I'm hoping to make it one ofthese days.
My life has been a little crazyin the last year or so, but I'm
working on it.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
I can't wait, I'll give you a hug right here and
then I'll say, probably I wordof the year.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Ashley, is partially motivated by you.
It's release and I like therelease in all senses of the
word.
The one that I don't reallytalk about is the sexual part,
but the other parts arereleasing the things, the belief
and patterns that don't workfor us, releasing the tendency
(55:18):
to try to please everybody,releasing all of that negative
stuff and then also releasingyour joy and your true goodness
and kindness and value to theworld Right.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
Right, because the release is.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
It's almost like you're opening.
Release is positive andnegative.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
You're opening up this cycle, you're opening up
the channel Right Of what can gocan go, what can come can come.
Really, that's such a good one.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
What's your?
Do you do that?
Do you do that I do?
Speaker 3 (55:49):
And in the past couple of years, like 2021, I
couldn't come up with a word.
It was so weird, it was so hard.
I had for like 10 years I had aword, I couldn't come up with
it, or 2022.
So last year, 2023, my wordcame to me.
Like November or December ofthe year before I was journaling
.
I opened a new planner for thenext year and Triumph came and I
(56:12):
was like Triumph, Can I eventhink of one Triumph song?
Like what does Triumph evenfeel like?
Like what Triumph?
It feels like so like like afairy tale, something.
I'm like what?
It's not even a real feeling.
I hear people going wee,Triumph, we are the champions.
And the closest I could get wasI am the tiger.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
I was like I couldn't even get to a Triumph thing I
could get for like that, there'sactually a lot of Triumph and
songs.
Speaker 3 (56:39):
No, but I couldn't because I was like.
I was like I know how to getpumped up, but I don't know how
to feel accomplished.
I don't, I don't know what thatfeels like.
So last year, my whole year wasinvestigating what does Triumph
feel like?
And then I, in March, I decidedI'm leaving my marriage and I'm
moving out and like I'm like,oh, wow, this isn't how I
thought it would look, but here,wow and like.
(57:01):
This year, on so many physicallevels, I was so triumphant in
taking care of myself and takingcare of my kids and renovating
this house and like, keeping thelights on Daniel, Like, like.
And then what came to me justthe last week of December for
this next year, for 2024, iscelebration.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
I like that.
I love that actually.
Speaker 3 (57:26):
Celebrate good times.
Come on, all right.
Speaker 2 (57:32):
We'll end on that note.
It's been wonderful chattingwith you and can't wait to meet
you in person some days.
Yeah, can't wait.
Speaker 3 (57:40):
Thanks, Daniel Bye.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Thank you so much.
Hi there, welcome to Peace of Work the podcast.
I'm Danielle Tanton.
I'm a nurse, author, coach andsurvivor.
I love inspiring people to livetheir best life, reach for
those big dreams and find joyeven in the pain.
As I wrote my memoir over somany years, trying to make sense
of a story where I was way toooften the bad guy instead of the
(00:28):
hero, I came to understand thatwe are all a piece of work, but
we're also a work in progress,and even in our messiness we are
a work of art too.
All at the very same time, infact, we are all beautifully
unique pieces of one masterpiecewaves in the same ocean.
This podcast will explore thestories and struggles that make
(00:50):
us human, the miracles thatsurround us and all the ways we
work to make sense of it all.
Welcome to Peace of Work thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Okay.
Well, I'm so excited to talk toyou, ashley.
I'm not feeling great today.
I woke up with kind of a weirdupset stomach, but so I'm at
home in my blurred backgroundhome office.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Hopefully this conversation sets you on the
path to healing, Danielle.
Hopefully it's like unsettledand then clarity comes in and
all clear.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, I love your energy and you're so much about
you and I'm in your presence alot, even though we haven't
talked live in a while.
This is the second time you'reon my podcast and, believe it or
not, I only have about 30episodes and this is the second
one you're on, so that's apretty high percentage Amazing.
(01:50):
Thank you for having me back.
I've been watching your journeyand we'll give a little intro
to everything you've been doing,but I've seen you evolve and I
feel like you and I are just onsuch a similar path similar but
different and that's why I thinkthat's one of the reasons I
feel so connected with you andso interested in what you're
(02:14):
doing.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
And I think, danielle , it's because it's a path that
a lot of women are on right now,a lot of humans collectively
really assessing wait a minute,and for a lot of us this
happened before pandemic, but ithappened in a collective way
during pandemic.
People are pausing and sayingwait a minute, maybe I don't
have to do things the way I'vealways done them.
(02:36):
Maybe, just because this iswhat's expected of me, I can
take a pause and ask myself ifI'm really going to do that or
if I'm maybe going to startdoing the opposite in some
situations.
And for a lot of us, ourworldview is really based on
doing things that are expected.
(02:57):
I mean, child psychologistswill tell you about this.
Everybody talks about the thingsthat we experienced from birth
to age seven really imprint onus how the world works and how
we stay safe and how we keep thepeople around us in a pleasant
mood, how we keep our caregivers, how do we push their buttons
(03:21):
or how do we stay out of theirway, or how do we get good
attention, how do we get badattention?
What happens or what are we toldabout ourselves?
When we ask for too much, thenwhat are the ways that we start
taking a look at our patternsand really start discerning what
is helping me and what ishelping me feel joyous, free,
(03:45):
plugged in, connected, lovingtowards the people in my family,
really overflowing withgenerosity to friends, what is
making me feel filled up andwhat behaviors am I doing on my
own accord every single day thatare really driving me into the
ground and are pushing a wedgebetween me and the people
(04:08):
closest to me?
It's really this, reckoning,this coming to terms with how
much of our life can we do onautopilot and are we willing to
start taking a look, one by one,almost like the Conmarie right?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I love that I did that.
I did that with my clothes.
Why not do it here?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I know right, but just to really take a look at
every limiting belief or everylittle thought that comes up,
every automatic thing that yourbrain or your body does, and you
say, wait a minute, do I wantto keep doing that or do I want
to pause long enough to say, ooh, is there a better way that I
could do this?
You and I have both beenthrough those things with love
(04:51):
and illness and physical andemotional well-being and
figuring out okay, how can Ireally?
What does a life of integrityfeel like?
It feels like when I'm being mytrue self.
And when I'm being my true self, how much more can I offer
others and how many feathers amI willing to ruffle to be true
(05:15):
to me, even when people aroundme may not understand?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, and that's sort of been the story of my life.
And when you publish a memoir,especially one like either of
ours, where they're so personaland very it's just personal
about our love life and ourfaith life and our inner life.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Revealing.
I would say really right, right, you open, we both open right
up and say not everybody talksabout that.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Especially, you know some of the circles that we may
run in.
I mean, you know I have a lot avery conservative Christian
circle, and then I you mentionedworld view earlier I have
almost two world views competingfor my.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
You know my heart and Because there is so new, so
much nuance, yeah, there's somuch nuance and and Danielle, to
have that Space for that bit ofcuriosity right to say like,
wait a minute, I feel pulled inthis direction.
I pulled this endure in thisdirection.
And what can I learn from thetension?
(06:18):
What can I learn from actuallynot being able to just slap a
label on my own beliefs or onwhat I think is right or wrong
right now or or, like you knowwe've been, we've been really
asked to take a side on so manythings and I think that now the
pendulum is swinging back alittle bit in some conversations
(06:38):
to say, wait a minute, you knowwhat?
It's okay to be on the fencesometimes.
You know we went through thewhole silence as violence and I
don't disagree that that thereis a lot of, a lot of people are
just staying safe in theirprivilege and they're they're
not ruffling feathers andthey're not, you know, taking it
(07:00):
in there in their bottom lineand things like that.
But you know what?
I think that those people arealways gonna be silent.
I think that there are those ofus who need to speak up in the
world and who are writers andmemoirs, but we also need to
know when I don't know if I havea public opinion on every
single thing.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
No, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
I don't have.
I don't have until I can saysomething meaningfully and with
a touch of wit and a universallesson, so that I'm not just
bitching about something ormoaning about my own thing or
whatever.
I I keep, I keep my processinginside and I keep it for, like
(07:40):
one-to-one conversations withfriends and I talk to my kids
about it a lot, you know, and wetoss ideas around between us to
try to understand.
You know when each one of us iscoming from with our
understanding of a situation soagree, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So we talked already a lot, we kind of delved right
in and we didn't reallyintroduce you or talk about.
Talk about who you are and whatyou do and why you're so
interesting to me.
So this is my friend, ashleyRenard.
She is a memoirist, as as wementioned, and I read her book
last year and loved it, butshe's also created a community
(08:15):
and it's it sort of has evolved,and so I'd like you to kind of
give me, give us you.
I want, I want you to introduceyourself as who you, who you
are and who you, who you want tobe in the world.
Yeah, and it changes every day.
Right, it changes every day.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It's been a big, big year for me as far as change
change Totally so.
Okay, ashley Renard, canadianprairie girl, raised in the rink
, I coached and choreographedsynchronized skating for years,
told my stories that way, butalways wanted to be a writer
than 2019 make a time.
(08:51):
Right before pandemic, Iretired from my life on the ice
and I Focused on my writingfull-time and things moved
really quickly, and this was myexperience, I think, danielle.
I think I've done it a lot oftimes, but this is my recent
experience in like full-onbelief Manifestation, jumping
timelines, whatever you want tocall it like really changing the
(09:12):
whole reality around myself,and I've done that so many times
in the last five years.
Since then, I Wrote swing, whichis a Funny, sexy book about how
, as a perfectionist mom, I tookdoing it all to the next level
as the world's worst attemptedswinger, and it was a
(09:35):
well-received and commerciallysuccessful book that people have
loved and it's been optionedfor film and that has brought up
so many more issues for me asfar as being visible and and
that is the catalyst for my nextmemoir because the the reality
(09:57):
Trick that's played on yourselfwhen you're asking yourself wait
a minute, like who do I reallywant to be cast as me, and Do I
do?
Do I really want to be knownfor this thing?
And has that ship alreadysailed?
And and and?
Is it just a thing I made?
It you know is?
Is swing just a thing I made?
That's like a fruit that'sfallen off my branches years ago
(10:19):
, or is it me, like all of thesethings that come with?
I can really Much of whatyou're saying.
Come with success.
Come with goals still notachieved.
Come with potential.
Come with Can I just move on tosomething else?
Come with what is?
What is the energetic loyalty Iowe to this creative project?
(10:39):
Or how much freedom do I giveit?
I actually did this ritual acouple months ago, danielle, and
your eyes make it big, my kidseyes.
When I told them this, theywere Like you, what?
I burnt an entire copy of swing.
I ripped the cover off and thenI ripped page by page by page
and just tossed it into a fire.
And it was so Amazing because Igot to see the first few words
(11:02):
on every other page and then Istarted Few.
Well, I just like oh, that's theplace in the book.
It was sort of this Pacingthrough the book.
You know I've read it, I'vereread it, I've edited it, I
narrated the audiobook twice butI'm sure it like that right, it
was this really physical sortof like, almost a walking
(11:23):
through it, because it was likea rhythmic thing and what I did
was I treated it like a, like achild that I was launching into
the world.
So like I'm an empty nester now, like I've done what I need to
free and now you can go and bewhat you want to be.
I love that.
I think that's so because Istill had so much attachment and
aversion to like.
I hope it's this, I hope it'snot that you know like it's we
(11:44):
share such a revealing way.
We, we, yeah, we really have nocontrol over what people do
with our story and that'sinfuriating.
And it's a constant act ofsurrender and a constant act of
release.
Because that book was aboutrehabbing my shabby marriage and
how I figured so many thingsout about my perfectionism and
(12:06):
shifted my marriage and myparenting, and all of those
things are true.
And also we came up againstanother marriage renovation that
was needed a couple years ago,when we we have three boys
they're 16, 14 and 10 now butthe summer that our oldest
turned 15 and he got taller thanme and he entered high school.
(12:27):
I felt the incredible shift inour Dynamic as far as a quality
in our family.
It was like my spot on thefamily totem pole shifted and
all of a sudden, teenage kidDanielle the kid who just got
hair on his balls is like aboveme.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Wow in rank.
So tell us just yeah, you're.
You were married to a.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Greek man, a Greek Orthodox man, who was a very
nice guy and a very hands-on dad, and For anybody who's married
to a nice guy, you know thatthat is a double-edged fucking
sword, because sometimes theyjust hide behind that nice guy
demeanor and they never take astand for anything, they never
(13:13):
stick their neck out, they justdo enough to be considered the
nice guy.
And Collectively, we have seena lot of times where especially
the nice white man gets introuble for, yeah, doing nothing
right or allowing something tohappen.
Because I mean, studies haveshown for a very long time that
(13:36):
if someone is to stand up andhold someone else accountable or
to stand up and keep Someoneelse safe, it's usually a woman.
It's usually a woman's a femalestranger who will do that for
other people.
Men have really been able tojust like, not say anything,
keep their proximity to power,you know what, by not
disagreeing with this guy.
So I should have just be holdDaniel that in my own house,
(13:59):
like how my husband would wantto like stay bros with a 15 year
old, so like wouldn't back meup and it was all.
Is this culmination of years ofnot being backed up on the kids
chores, not really having apartner and like, okay, wait a
minute.
These things are important tome with the kids.
This is why I think we shouldget off screens and, you know,
(14:22):
get into the bed with some booksor something a little earlier.
All of these things that werepoo pooed and kind of like, oh,
I don't know if it's thatimportant.
All of a sudden you know this.
This teenager has ideas that arelike, oh, okay and giving
Credence, and I'm like wait aminute, I Thought you sort of
(14:44):
ignored kind of anything youdidn't understand.
But it seems like you know,when you're motivated, when our
teenage son wants you tounderstand something, or when a
male stranger wants you tounderstand something, your brain
works really quickly.
And when I, as your wife of 21years, and try to explain
something to you, it's veryfoggy.
(15:04):
So maybe, maybe it's not yourcomprehension, maybe it's the
way that you're able to treat meand see me as only a fraction
of a full human when I'm a womanliving in your house.
It's so interesting becauseit's so.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
This, this whole subject, is something so
different than even any of thesubjects that you explored In
your in your book, and that'sthe whole point is like your
book, like you said earlier, itwas one fast.
It was like about one part ofyour life.
It was about you know one themeand Then you have a whole life
and I what I saw as a, as askind of a someone sitting back
(15:42):
inside your community a littlebit.
I couldn't believe the judgmentof some people like I guess
there's always that there'salways naysayers, especially
when you are being visible andyou're living out loud.
I Couldn't believe the judgmentof people over you getting a
divorce after.
After trying to talk to peopleabout about having monogamous
(16:07):
Relationships.
I'm like, so she, because webelieve in her monogamous,
because Ashley believed in not amonogamous Relationships and
still does, probably.
I mean, like I do.
I do using a divorce for her ownpersonal marriage because it's
the best way.
You're like, you're gonnayou're gonna say oh my gosh,
everything you taught me.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
How can I?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
even believe what you taught me.
I was like, I was so angry.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
It was so it was so funny.
It was so funny, danielle,because I mean, it was hard from
an identity and I like, wait aminute, what do I know about
communication and what can Itrust that I know about
Relationships?
It was hard from like apersonal standpoint of like, oh
(16:52):
god, I, I can't make my marriagework.
And Should I now be sayinganything about marriage?
Because, well, for, for alittle bit I was like I don't
want to say anything.
If I talk about marriage, I'mjust gonna tell everybody, like
get divorced, it's too hard,just fucking.
Never mind.
Like let's everybody just Maybeour kids will figure out a new
(17:13):
way to do marriage, but like wedon't know if this isn't it, I
but I just kept it.
I talked to friends and Ijournaled a much therapy and I
deep burned with my ex becausewe kept things Really private
for months, for months.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah.
So then when you make theannouncement, everyone's like
what the heck?
What I?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
thought you guys were fine, I thought you guys were
great right and the majority ofpeople were really great.
There were some people who werelike the same men.
This is the thing, danielle.
It's not hard to figure out themen who'd had a problem with
this.
The men who had a problem withme getting divorced and not
saying in my marriage were thesame men who would write me DMs
(17:55):
saying, oh my God, if only mywife was more like you, my sex
life would be and my life wouldbe amazing.
Okay, they think there's amagic pill Like oh, if my wife
just liked sex, like Ashleylikes sex, my life would be
great.
No, if you would actually justlisten to your wife, she would
(18:16):
be able to tell you what shelikes.
You would be able to say theseare the things that I like, and
she would be able to say, yeah,this is what turns me off about
that.
And you would be able to haveenough creativity and enough
worldview and enough of anunderstanding that, as men and
women, you're not against eachother.
Because the people who were inmy audience and who really were
(18:37):
getting what I was saying foryears about men and women let's
just look at each other as, like, unique and incredible and
potentially annoying.
Individual means unique andincredible and potentially
annoying individual.
Let's figure out the uniqueways that we are.
All of those things Not.
(18:57):
But patriarchy sets us up to saymen and women want different
things in life.
We want different things inlife, danielle, did you know?
Women want sex, women don'twant sex.
Great, what do women want?
Not even true.
It turns out women just need aman to provide for them.
That's actually when we look atpatriarchy.
We're like men want sex andwomen need a man.
(19:19):
So it's like what?
Well, like it all starts tobreak down really fast.
You're like wait, what are wetalking about?
But then men and women getmarried and instead of saying,
hey, I would like this to bebetter for both of us, can we
talk Assumptions, assumptions,assumptions, assumptions.
Talk to your buddies, talk toyour friends assumptions,
assumptions.
(19:40):
And then we have this wholeparadigm where there are
millions of men who believe,yeah, women don't really like
sex, but if your wife's niceenough or likes you enough,
they'll do it with you.
We have totally forgotten thatsex is a fun thing for both, for
(20:01):
all genders, for almost anybodywho has a healthy body, and
asexual individuals have adifferent place in this right,
but for most people sex is great.
And then for most people, thereare weird things that happen to
(20:22):
us Hangups and things that getin the way we get hangups right.
Yeah, that if you have a greatpartner, wonderful.
You actually have aworkshopping partner to work
through your own weird hangupsand even take weird fantasies
and go.
This is weird, but what is itabout it that turns me on?
Oh, it's like this sort ofdynamic and looking more at what
(20:44):
is either the power play,that's kind of a turn on, or the
power play that's kind of aturn off, like man, if they're
incompetent in the kitchen orsomething like that sort of
incompetent child sort of energyis like the opposite of sexy,
right, like I recently did apoll, danielle and 95% of my
(21:10):
audience polled said that theywanted their partner to be more
assertive in the bedroom.
Okay, and I don't think itmeans that we all just want to
be totally submissive or like wewant to be like tied up slaves
or something.
I think what it means and thisis men and women across the
board 95% of people want theirpartner to be more dominant.
(21:31):
This is what we want.
We want our partner to beconfident.
We want our partner to look andseem sexy, whether that's like
them taking control or textingyou and being like hey, I'm
going to be home in 20 minutes.
I want you to be waiting for mein this place.
I want you to be wearing this,I want you right, whatever it is
, and, like your listeners or myaudience members, when I throw
(21:56):
out these different ideas, oneof them will light up for them
and they'll be like, oh, that'sthe thing, right.
And then they'll talk withtheir partner and they'll be
like that's the thing for you,this is the thing for me.
Oh, isn't that interesting?
And to really look at this,danielle, any sort of needs,
whether they're emotional needs,sexual needs, whatever they are
, I don't think human needs areever in opposition with each
(22:19):
other.
So, you know, you and I couldbe friends and have very
specific needs for what we needon a Thursday afternoon and we
could hang out together allafternoon and we could both get
our needs met.
It wouldn't take very muchpatience or creativity to figure
out.
What is it about that sushirestaurant you like?
Oh, you like that.
(22:39):
It's by the water.
You know what?
There's this cafe over here.
It doesn't take very muchcreativity because we assume, oh
, we're friends, we're going tohave a great afternoon, we can
figure out lots of ways to makethis fun.
But men and women going into thebedroom together thinking, oh
yeah, we're already on differentteams here for different things
(23:00):
that we want out of this.
We have to tolerate each otherto come together to do this, get
through it Right.
To get through it, because ifwe're not doing it we're going
to feel really weird about it.
But even when we do it it feelsa little weird because, like
there's parts of it that we knowthings that are being unsaid or
things that, like we thinkmaybe the other person wants,
(23:21):
but they're not asking and we'renot going to break Danielle,
the amount of uncertainty likeliterally I have more clarity
with my Instacart person everytime I order groceries than most
people have when they're havingsex with their partner.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, Because it's like I think the relationship
can get in the way too.
You know, if you, if you're notseeing eye to eye, if you're,
if you're in a, if you're havinga lot of people, maybe this
isn't even the case for you,because but but if you ask me,
ask me, well, I was going to sayyou know, I'm also going
through a divorce.
To me, when you're, when I,when I'm having issues in our
(24:00):
relationship, it affects the sex, because it's like almost like
you close yourself off and youdon't even want to let yourself
enjoy it, and so you have tobecause I can't.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
I I cannot be intimate with someone unless I
feel physically safe and gettingalong and happy with them.
Like I can't have sex if we'refighting.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
I can't even have makeup sex because, honestly, my
nervous system has to likeactually I can, unfortunately,
and I can go through the motionsand they can do this.
We're going through the motions.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well, okay, but here's the thing let's pause
this.
Let's pause this and back it up.
Let's pause this and back it up.
You can have makeup sex,unfortunately, okay.
Okay, either you're going tostop having makeup sex or you're
going to be grateful for thefact that you can have it, right
, and you're going to keephaving it and you're going to
(24:51):
say this is something that Icontinue doing because I want
the connection after orsomething.
There's something about it thatdoesn't feel great, but there
is a part of me that continuesto do it.
Yeah, so then you can say toyourself okay, if this is
something I keep doing because,I don't know, maybe it really
feels like you need to repairand like having that physical
(25:12):
connection after.
To not do it would feel unsafe,you know.
So then, you know what?
Change your mindset and say,okay, I'm going to make it the
best fucking orgasm, or I'mgoing to be wild, or I'm going
to be really bratty anddemanding.
Whatever Right, like, make it,make it great.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
That's the part I couldn't do.
I was unable to do it.
It was for me, it was goingthrough the motions because of
the where our relationship was.
Yeah, and it was obvious.
You know, I tried, but it was.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
But thinking about that going forward in other
relationships.
Just think about how you wantto approach breakup sex.
Is it going to be a yes?
No, it's going to be, but it'sgoing to be like have it be an
intentional thing?
Yeah, like I don't like how Idid breakup sex before.
So if we're going to havebreakup sex partner, we got to
talk about this.
And that is the great thingabout dating in your 40s, people
(26:10):
want to have honestconversations.
Before every first date I go on, I have a phone conversation.
That's usually.
I've shared this in myInstagram stories like one to
three hours.
The guy I'm dating right now wespoke for eight hours, the
first two hours, the first twohours the night that we were
talking.
Yeah, we matched on a Thursday,then that Friday we talked for
(26:31):
eight hours, so talk about the.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
How are you, do you do the apps Like?
I mean, I don't even seeingthis guy now.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
So but this guy we've only been dating for a few
weeks.
We met in December the guy I'mdating right now.
So the way I'm dating is usingBumble, one app, one profile,
going on little spurts where Iswipe for a bit every day Like
it's my job.
I talk to a bunch of guys atonce, sometimes line up a few
(27:02):
phone conversations If I reallylike talking to them.
Then a date which leads to somereally fun first dates.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
It's led to a couple Because you know them pretty
well by the time you see them, Iwanted to kiss it for a site's
date.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Wow, I mean, that was kind of right.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, no, I mean, I've had some pretty intimate
conversations.
So I only did.
I did a different app, I didhinge and I did it for about 48
hours.
So that's it.
What scared you off so quickly?
I didn't, nothing turned me off, I just was overwhelmed by.
I had like 50 different matchesand I was like, okay, this is
(27:37):
enough, I don't need any, Idon't need to continue staying
active, and I met a few peoplethat I liked and I'm only one
person.
I mean, I can only handle somuch the amount of attention
that I have gotten as a 49 yearold woman with no nipples, which
that's the whole conversation.
So I was like so you know thatI went through breast cancer and
(27:59):
I had a double mastectomy and Ihad, I had no nipples.
I now have tattooed nipplesthat I got a couple of weeks ago
that are beautiful and I kindof want to show the world, show
them to the world, and but so II started asking myself when?
When do you bring that up, liketo somebody?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And my answer is because of my personality, I
pretty much bring it up rightaway.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Like and, danielle, that is probably something that
really attracts men to you.
Cause this is what I found indating is I'm not coy, I don't
play games, I lay it out there,I don't try to act cool, I'm
kind of dorky, I'm like whatever.
Sometimes, danielle, duringthat first conversation, I might
(28:46):
be like I need to pee, but Iwant to keep talking.
You're going to hear, you'regoing to hear me pee right now
because I just I'm going to muteit cause whatever.
But I'm like gettingcomfortable with someone.
Honestly, I think it's fromsports too, like you know, if
you're like thrown into like aroommate situation at like a
camp or something it's like,let's get comfortable.
We all know where this ishopefully going.
(29:08):
But but just the, thewillingness to be real and to
like flow with things and to beinterested in them and to not
like make them work for it asfar as, like you know, I I mean
(29:31):
it just allows.
I think what I feel for men islike their defenses are dropped
and then the conversations wehave are really great and then,
even if it doesn't work out,danielle, even if it doesn't
work out, there has been thisconnection that I can say you
know, this isn't, this isn'tworking out, or I'm not where I
(29:51):
wanted to be, or I need a breakfrom this.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Well, and sometimes I don't know about you, but you
might have a really good rapportand you're, you guys get along
great and it's a really funbanter.
And then when you meet them,there's just not a physical
chemistry Like it.
Just even though you thoughtyou had it, you had that
emotional connection, youthought they looked good in the
pictures, it was just there'sjust not a connection.
Not a connection physically.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
I know there, I've had that, I've had that, I've
had it too.
This is what I'm realizing howmuch my mind and my story and my
buy-in to like this dynamic orthis attraction can turn me on
right and get me excited.
And I've used it a lot,Danielle, too, for getting
(30:39):
excited about writing ideas, forreally tuning it, Like me too.
Because when you're chattingwith someone or just starting
the dating, there's like there'sthe fantasy fantasy levels
turned up.
It's like a drug, right, it'sreally like a drug.
So you're like endorphins andyour excitability is already
(31:00):
kind of primed, so what I haveused that to do, and sometimes
I'll just be like boy crazy fora week or so but really we are
so much alike in that.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
I got some kids and I got a business, and now I have
this.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I kind of need to do some other things.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
I got this house, I got a paperwork, so I got to
keep running a business, becausenone of these men are sugar
daddy situations.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I'm never going to get choosing those either.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
But, danielle, I've asked myself because I've dated
a few different kinds of men andmost of them have graduate
degrees and a lot of them havegraduated or teach at Ivy League
schools around PhiladelphiaBecause, like you know, for like
the area that I live in andliberal politics, and just like
(31:54):
the ways that I'm swiping, I'vehad a certain like a few,
certain kind of men that I'vedated and I've really gotten,
I've had the opportunity to feelinto the dynamic of whether I
want a man who's more successfulthan I am financially and also
if I'm with a man who I thinkmay be jealous of my success
(32:15):
financially or if I'm with a manwho, I think actually wants to
throw it in their ex-wife's face.
Look who I'm dating now, right,and that whole like sort of
trophy energy, that like there'sa piece of it that could feel
good.
And then there's this wholebunch of it that's like wait a
minute, that's part of my appealto you, and then I it's just
(32:40):
how do I feel in these differentareas of my life?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You brought up something that I kind of noticed
.
It's a little different, youknow, but about just
reevaluating your type or what.
The type of guy that you'vealways liked and mine is so
basic.
I've always, always, always,always I can't wait to hear and
attracted to tall guys.
I'm five feet tall, ashley, butI've always been attracted to
tall guys, at least six feet.
(33:05):
One of my exes was six four.
I've always liked tall guys.
It's just like it's the lookthat I'm attracted to long, lean
muscles.
And when I opened my mind andsaid why, like I'm five feet
tall, why am I only a child?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
You're five feet tall , like I'm five, five.
So I was like yeah, what if Idated?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
someone short Like what.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Even if you're short, you're still taller than me.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
How short.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
That's been very interesting to realize that
that's wild, because I I'mtaller is not necessarily better
when you're a small girl Like.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Right, and so have you made out with somebody who's
a shorter height, because it'sa completely different dynamic
the way your body is connected.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
It's way better.
It's actually way morecomfortable.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Right, I know, I know because I'm five, five and I
was married to a man who waslike five, nine for like 20
years, right, and not like fourinches is like Perfect.
Yeah, I mean, it's so perfectbecause you just put your head
up a little bit, you put theirhead down, your head like reach
the rest on their shoulderbecause they're right there,
right.
And then I've dated guys.
(34:09):
In college, though I dated guyswho were like six, four, six,
five.
So I told myself, oh no, no, Idefinitely only want to date
tall guys, ivy League guys, thisand that.
And then I'm dating this guy whohas a plane and on our third
day he flies me to Canada for 11days.
And I'm like, wow, thesegestures feel great, right.
And I'm like, wait a minute,what do I, daniel?
(34:35):
You know the two moments that Istill think about with that guy
.
I dated him for two and a halfmonths.
On our second day he made me acup of tea here at my house and
he brought it over to me and Idon't think a man had ever made
me a cup of tea, start to finish.
And I was like I looked at himand I said to him I really
(35:01):
appreciate you making me thattea.
And he looked at me and he waslike Okay, he was like no, but
thank you.
And I was just like, wow, thenurturing that I am craving, or
the way this nurturing lands forme.
That's the thing that I waslike what really lands?
And then there was this othertime, very sexy.
(35:25):
We're having sex.
He's on top of me and he pushesback my hair like this and he
goes.
You look so beautiful right now.
Boom, done, right.
Those are the tenderness, butyou're not dating him anymore.
And the nurturing.
No, I broke up with him becausehe's really I know it all kind
(35:47):
of jerk, but we did have somegood moments.
We had some good moments.
But for me to realize, and forme now, this guy I've been
seeing for about a month,depending when this air has been
seeing him since beginning ofDecember.
He is so incredibly nurturing,danielle like so that was
(36:14):
important to you.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, you kind of take things from each experience
, right?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
And to see what kind of misses out.
And then I dated this guy whowas so devoted, danielle, like,
so devoted, like he would textme and triplicate Like I adore
you, I adore you, I adore you,wow, I am yours, I am yours, I
am yours.
I was like this is this, isthis is interesting, right?
Yeah, he was so devoted andlike he would just call me.
(36:42):
Actually he called me as prettywitch, which was so.
It was a term of endearment,because he was like are you a
witch?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
So I met a witch before.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
I fell in love with a witch when I was in college and
he was like, just, he wasbewitched by me, incredibly, and
I got to feel what that feltlike for him to be like
devotional in his words or hisattention for me, and also to
come over to my house after aretreat and to say what can I
(37:13):
help with?
And say, oh, can you put awaythis, these things, catering
dishes with the lids right there, danielle, and I was debriefing
with with my team and I lookedover 20 minutes later and he was
like I don't know where the tinfoil is and like you don't even
need the tin foil and also youcould open like a cupboard.
(37:35):
But like I was like oh, oh,yeah, like this devotion, but
without the actual.
The thing that I liked about thepilot he was very hands on.
He would help me with thingsaround my house.
You know, even before he put meon his plane, he bought me a
wheelbarrow and brought it overwith his truck and took off his
(37:56):
shirt and helped me set up afountain in the yard and like
replaced light bulbs, like verylike hands on and, like you know
, sort of like this nurturingsort of dad, sort of helpful
masculine way, right.
But then what I got to see withthis guy, wine guy, is what I
call him home dating, right nowis like whoa, these like really
(38:22):
kind words about what heappreciates about me.
And then this, like boots on theground, let me fix you a snack.
Can I pour you a littleprosecco?
Oh, let me put this cheese inyour mouth.
You go sit down, I'm just gonnamake risotto.
Well, you tell me again thatinteresting thing you were
telling me.
(38:42):
I mean Danielle, I mean it'sreally like I'm really getting
into, like he's now cooked forme with me to prep food for my
kids twice now the week on theSunday before they come, because
my ex and I switched back andforth on Mondays week on week
(39:02):
off, which I love the schedule.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah, we have a similar schedule, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
And I love being with my kids half the time.
I'm gonna say it, I prefer itbecause I got really sad about a
month after I left and I waslike fuck him.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
They're missing him.
They're working harder.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I need to be here, but I'm the one so long.
I mean, the kids are going backand forth, but I was the one
who moved to and then I was kindof in that self pity for a few
minutes and then I said tomyself integrity check, fucking
integrity check.
Do you really want to go back?
If you could go back to asituation where you would have
(39:42):
the kids 100% of the time,whether that meant new husband
drops in, whether that meansex-husband miraculously becomes
a different, whatever you canhave, whatever you want, ashley,
do you want the kids full time?
And it's like, actually no, Ireally like my freedom.
And it's like, then stopitching about that.
And that's something that'sbeen and it's just an internal
process, being honest.
Yeah, it's just an internalprocess because our ego can have
(40:06):
us feeling self pity when,danielle, actually we got what
we wanted and we had just neverbeen I loved my new house, it's
very beautiful and exciting wehad never been honest with
ourselves about what we and Imean I think for some of us
that's the reason our marriagesdidn't work is because we were
(40:27):
trying to make this one thingwork but it really wasn't a fit
in so many different ways thatwe are so lucky they never got
it together in that specific way.
And there was finally thatfinal straw, because our
possibility for expansion andintegrity and authentic living
because I mean being in amarriage is a hard thing because
(40:50):
you've got a partner you've gotto keep working on things with
and a lot of people just don'thave the level of self-awareness
and honesty.
And this is what was ultimatelythe thing with the pilot.
He really he presented himselfas having more self-awareness
and integrity and ability tolook at his ego and be called
out on things than he actuallyhad.
(41:11):
And it was hard because hewould be really a know-it-all
and really get into this kind ofI told you so energy and
doubled down, which for me hewas like a minor league version
of my mom.
So it triggered in me.
(41:32):
It was really valuable becauseit got to show me how I still
have this codependent dance thatI'll do to try to motivate
other people towards kindness,to try to make them feel
appreciated enough so that Idon't really seem like a burden,
because they're kind of actinglike they're annoyed, even
though I'm like we don't have todo that.
Thank you, I just want you toknow that I appreciate you.
(41:53):
And he's like oh yeah, it'sfine, it's fine, but then, like
redoing things that electriciandid, just to say you could do it
, that's fucking weird behavior.
No, like we're right to justknow, like what is going on,
what is getting along withsomeone, and then what is the
line that we're not going tocross again, that we're going to
(42:15):
say no, no, no, no, no newmistakes, only moving forward.
We learned our lessons.
We learned a lot of them thehard way.
We want to hold on to that.
Whether they were earned easilyor hard, our lessons are our
lessons and let's give reverenceto the part of us that learned
(42:39):
that, the younger version ofourselves that went through that
, walked through those flames tolearn it, by saying I'm not
going to forget it Because Iremember the words.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
I'm not going to make the same mistake again.
I might make new mistakes.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
New mistakes.
Only that's the teacher that Iwanted to get made when I left
skating Because I was like whoa.
I know what integrity feelslike and I know what it feels
like.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
I have made some of the same mistakes that we're in
over for so long.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Because you're human, because you're human and
because we don't know the lessonyet, when we keep making the
mistake, we were muddled on thelesson and we were probably
learning other things, but thatone has to keep coming up for us
until and then, danielle, whenwe really see it, when we really
(43:27):
see it and there's resonanceand we feel it is truth, even
our ego can't argue against itanymore and it just drops, it
just falls away.
And then we're onto newmistakes, only in that
department, because it was ohlike the feeling of quiet and
(43:50):
knowing that you get.
When you're like, oh, I need todrop this, or oh, this is never
the healing fantasy I havearound.
This is never gonna come true.
That's the thing.
Because we want things to begreat.
When we were kids, when we wereyoung people, when we were
(44:11):
starting our marriages, when wewere young moms, we wanna do a
good job, we wanna get alongwith the people around us and
humans are complicated, so webump up against each other and
then we start compromising andsacrificing our integrity,
because then we think, whenthey're doing better, they're
gonna realize what I compromisedand then it's gonna come back
(44:32):
to me.
We are the arbiters of our ownexperience 100% and we get to
decide what goes out and whatcomes in right.
And learning how to do that ininterdependence with other
people, I think is some of thegreat healing work that we've
(44:52):
been called to do here in ourlifetime, and that's why paying
attention to these experiencesand sharing about them in the
ways that we do is so valuableto people, because there is an
easier way.
I think we are wired forharmony, we are wired for
expansion, we are wired forascension as humans, but there
(45:14):
are so many human parts.
Our human parts really trip usup.
You know, just having yeah,just walking people through our
own stories so they can see abit of a possibility or
(45:35):
framework or the proverbiallight at the end of the tunnel,
and I love that.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
I love that you brought that up, because that's
one of the things I wanted tojust talk about with you is just
using your own story, sharingyour own story to help other
people and to connect with other, because I think you are living
out loud To some extent.
Obviously, there's a wholeprivate life that goes on that
(46:01):
we're not seeing, and it can beeasy for some people to look at
that and me too and judge youfor that, like, why are you
sharing your nipples to everyone?
Why are you sharing your datinglife?
Why are you talking about yourdivorce and just see you as
being narcissistic or whatever.
(46:21):
But that's, I don't think it is.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
I think that we all know our motivations and one of
the things that I had to askmyself multiple times a day when
I was writing swing, when I wasquerying agents, when the book
was being published I meanthousands and thousands and
(46:53):
thousands of times I askedmyself why am I sharing this
story?
Because there are scary partsto this.
Why am I being like it's sortof an exhibitionist sort of
share?
And why is it, I would askmyself.
And the reason I always keptcoming up with?
(47:16):
Because I would ask myself do Ijust fucking want attention?
Am I just like?
Am I an attention whore?
Do I just want money?
Do I have fucking daddy?
What is my reason for sharingthese things that most people
would keep private?
And my reason was, danielle,that my shame screamed so loudly
(47:39):
in my ears every day that Icould never tell anybody that
story.
And you know what, when I wouldlook at the reality of this, I
was like okay, listen, actuallyI am a choreographer.
I have worked as a creative mywhole life.
I do coach.
I did coach children.
But I thought you know what, asa creative, changing careers
(48:03):
and writing this story that issexy.
That I also know I can tell in areally funny way that I also
know I'm leading with the sex,but that what I hear all the
time is oh my God, that is abait and switch.
And I'm like I know, becauseit's easier for me to say it's
(48:25):
like the complete idiot's guidefor what not to do in the swing
lifestyle.
Or it's like eat, pray, loveand 50 shades how to baby, and
like that's the book swing.
It's like eat, pray, love, butyou're like instead of going to
India, you're going to like sexclubs on these coast.
Trying to explain the depth ofsomething to somebody is often a
(48:49):
fool's errand.
So for me to say, yeah, here'sthis sexy, funny thing, and for
it to actually have more depth,I would rather it go that way.
And also I knew in sharing thisthat there were gonna be a lot
of people who didn't like it,who it was too much for them,
how it's just too uncomfortablefor them.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
And then I knew there'd be a lot of people who
were like yeah, especially thepeople that know you.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
But here's the thing, danielle me writing a book.
What I had to do was reallytake out everybody who knew me.
The only people I asked myselfabout were, okay, my husband and
my children, who are named inthe book.
Can I do?
I feel like I did write by themin the writing of this?
(49:36):
Yes, for everybody else.
I still have an incredibleamount of shame that I wrote
this book that reminds myparents that I have had sex and
gone to sex clubs.
Like I know, I still carry allof that and I have to go.
No, no, that doesn't.
That may be a thing, but I'mnot letting that affect how I'm
(49:58):
gonna go on with my life.
But I would ask myself why do Ireally wanna do this?
And the answer is because Ithink my writing can help people
and I'm not as embarrassed asother people.
I mean, I'm just not.
I was a performer my whole lifeand I taught people to be a
performer.
Talking about taboo thingsactually grounds me, like when
(50:19):
people are talking about thingsthat make them uncomfortable.
Like I feel calmer.
Like when we're getting to theserious part, I'm like great
people are gonna be more inintegrity, right.
Like I feel safer in thosesituations that people just
joking around and like, or evenplaying a board game and
changing the rules.
That to me, feels unsafe,danielle, because I'm like wait,
(50:41):
everybody needs to know whatthe rules are here.
So, talking about somethingreally taboo and knowing the
rules are, we're probably gonnasay things that are awkward and
that's gonna be okay Incredible,especially for a perfectionist.
Yeah, so, yeah, I don't.
And there may be people who arelike she just wants the, okay,
(51:03):
cool.
There are a lot of people whowant attention online and who
are not building a business.
There are a lot of people whoare selling sex or trying to
sell sex and not making money.
There are a lot of people youknow write an expose, type like
tell all book and it's not abest seller Like you know what I
mean.
Like there are a lot of it'slike Brene Brown.
You know the people in thearena.
(51:24):
Like I, if I am not enamored bysomeone's career, I'm not going
to be considering what theythink about my career.
If I am not in such ravenouslust and appreciation for the
way that their marriage andromantic partnership looks, I'm
(51:46):
not interested in what theythink about my marriage.
I'm not.
So they were like, literally,danielle, there are two couples
in the world who really loveeach other the way that I would
want to be loved and like theyare the only people I would take
advice on from on how to do myrelationships.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Are they specific two couples, like the specific two
couples that you know?
Speaker 3 (52:06):
Okay, Specific two couples that and they were both.
Both of them stayed over at myhouse the night of my birthday
and stayed in the back bedroom.
So I got to be around all fourof them, like during that night
and during my birthday, and likeI got to feel like what it's
like to be celebrated by malefriends who are just so loving
(52:29):
and what it's like to be likecelebrated together by, like, a
couple who loves you together,do you?
Speaker 2 (52:35):
know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (52:36):
It was just like, yeah, they're real expanders for
me as far as, like what Ibelieve is possible, moving
forward with relationships.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
Oh, my gosh, we've only touched on the.
I still feel like there's somuch more I wanted to explore
with you, but it's I love.
I love talking to you.
I love your energy.
I'm I aspire to be more likeyou.
I'm learning.
I did buy your package.
So tell us, tell everybody,where they can find you and what
(53:10):
, what you kind of things,you're offering these days.
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Yeah, Okay, so you can find me at Ashley Renard on
Instagram.
Ashley is A-S-H-L-E-I-G-H, theAshley spelling with all the
extra letters Ashley Renard.
On Instagram, I have lots ofgreat keeping at hot products.
That after dark webinars aresuper popular for people who are
in a relationship or who aresingle, and that's something
(53:32):
that I'm really talking aboutright now, too.
The ways that we can take oursolo play intentionally.
Take our solo play, danielle,whether we are single or whether
we are engaging in solo playwhile we're in a couple, but
that we can use that timeintentionally to experiment with
things that we would like toexperience, or things that we
(53:54):
would like to do with a partnerlater, or climax more quickly,
or climax more often, or likedifferent things that we can do
to then make us a morewell-rounded lover with our next
partners.
Also, keeping it hot tip sheetis a great place to start.
The new version of the tipsheet is about getting your
(54:17):
partner to take the lead, orways that you can take the lead.
Just show a little bit moreassertiveness.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
And that's a free download on your website Free
download yeah.
I've already been one of youron your email list, so I didn't.
I don't think I got that one.
Speaker 3 (54:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
All right.
Well, it's been wonderfultalking to you and I do hope
that I get to attend somethinglive with you soon.
I know you've had some liveretreats and different things.
I'm hoping to make it one ofthese days.
My life has been a little crazyin the last year or so, but I'm
working on it.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
I can't wait, I'll give you a hug right here and
then I'll say, probably I wordof the year.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Ashley, is partially motivated by you.
It's release and I like therelease in all senses of the
word.
The one that I don't reallytalk about is the sexual part,
but the other parts arereleasing the things, the belief
and patterns that don't workfor us, releasing the tendency
(55:18):
to try to please everybody,releasing all of that negative
stuff and then also releasingyour joy and your true goodness
and kindness and value to theworld Right.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
Right, because the release is.
Speaker 2 (55:33):
It's almost like you're opening.
Release is positive andnegative.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
You're opening up this cycle, you're opening up
the channel Right Of what can gocan go, what can come can come.
Really, that's such a good one.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
What's your?
Do you do that?
Do you do that I do?
Speaker 3 (55:49):
And in the past couple of years, like 2021, I
couldn't come up with a word.
It was so weird, it was so hard.
I had for like 10 years I had aword, I couldn't come up with
it, or 2022.
So last year, 2023, my wordcame to me.
Like November or December ofthe year before I was journaling
.
I opened a new planner for thenext year and Triumph came and I
(56:12):
was like Triumph, Can I eventhink of one Triumph song?
Like what does Triumph evenfeel like?
Like what Triumph?
It feels like so like like afairy tale, something.
I'm like what?
It's not even a real feeling.
I hear people going wee,Triumph, we are the champions.
And the closest I could get wasI am the tiger.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
I was like I couldn't even get to a Triumph thing I
could get for like that, there'sactually a lot of Triumph and
songs.
Speaker 3 (56:39):
No, but I couldn't because I was like.
I was like I know how to getpumped up, but I don't know how
to feel accomplished.
I don't, I don't know what thatfeels like.
So last year, my whole year wasinvestigating what does Triumph
feel like?
And then I, in March, I decidedI'm leaving my marriage and I'm
moving out and like I'm like,oh, wow, this isn't how I
thought it would look, but here,wow and like.
(57:01):
This year, on so many physicallevels, I was so triumphant in
taking care of myself and takingcare of my kids and renovating
this house and like, keeping thelights on Daniel, Like, like.
And then what came to me justthe last week of December for
this next year, for 2024, iscelebration.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
I like that.
I love that actually.
Speaker 3 (57:26):
Celebrate good times.
Come on, all right.
Speaker 2 (57:32):
We'll end on that note.
It's been wonderful chattingwith you and can't wait to meet
you in person some days.
Yeah, can't wait.
Speaker 3 (57:40):
Thanks, Daniel Bye.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Thank you so much.
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