September 11, 2025 • 34 mins
In this heartfelt conversation, Jock and Denise Mack explore the profound journey of grief following the loss of Denise's husband, Jeff. Denise shares her experiences of coping with loss, the signs she feels from Jeff, and how she has honored his memory through community support and creative expressions. The discussion emphasizes the importance of acceptance, storytelling, and the ongoing journey of healing, encouraging listeners to find ways to memorialize their loved ones and embrace their grief as a path to personal growth.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
Good morning, good evening, or good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, wherever you are in the
world. This is Jock here. This is Pillars and Grief. And
I'm delighted. Today is different. I'm delighted. I've actually
got one of the members of my community
who has been grieving for several years, and I thought it would
be a great experience to bring her
(00:33):
on to talk a little bit about her experiences and
also how she's memorialized her lost,
which is a fabulous way of what
she's actually done. And we'll talk a little bit about how
she's grown through this grief journey in the
hopes that people that listen to
(00:55):
my friend from our group will realize
that grief is nothing to be frightened of, and it's something that
can actually be a good
path to development. So welcome Denise
Mac from Pillars of Grief. How are you? I'm
okay. I'm doing good. So let's talk a
(01:17):
little bit about your loss without obviously,
you know, trying not. I mean, forget emotional. Get emotional, but that's one of these
things. But, you know, let us know a little bit about your loss and how
it kind of hit you when it
first happened. So, like, three years ago
in November, me and my husband, Jeff, we both got Covid at
(01:40):
the same time, and we were dealing with it at home together,
and he seemed fine, that, you know, everything was gonna
turn out good and we both were going to recover. And then
one night, he just took a turn for the worse, and he thought he was
going to go to the hospital for the infusion therapy.
I stayed home because I wasn't feeling good. And he went himself.
(02:02):
He actually drove himself to the hospital, and I
just said, I'll see you in a couple hours, you know. Then all of a
sudden, he was calling me, telling me they admitted him,
and, you know, they couldn't give him the infusion therapy. He was in
that hospital for, like a week. He was trying to breathe. It
got worse, but he was eating and everything, and I never thought
(02:25):
anything. And then
one night, he took a turn for the worst, and they had to put him
in icu. And they told me that, you know, he had a hard time that
night. So after that,
they said they had to put him on the ventilator, and I wasn't expecting
that. And I said, I don't want you on the ventilator, because I heard not
(02:46):
so good things. And they said, well, it's either that
or he might not make it. And I actually talked to him on
the phone, and he didn't try to not go on the
Ventilator. So to me, it's something that he needed. And I wanted to
transfer out of the hospital here to like, I thought maybe a better hospital.
And he went to that hospital because they had ECMO there.
(03:09):
So the doctor said if he gets accepted and he needs
the ECMO treatment, which is the transfer of the blood,
to give him a chance, then he wanted him to go to the hospital too.
So he went to the hospital there, but he was on the ventilator the whole
time, and he was getting better. I was getting different reports every
day. I was getting better and he was recovering and he
(03:32):
was probably going to get off the ventilator. And then
like three weeks later, I got the call that to come
to the hospital. And so I went to the hospital. I had his son
come, my son, his brother. And we had people
come there from our family and we didn't know what was going on.
And he was over Covid and.
(03:55):
But he got sepsis. So that's really what happened in the
end. The whole experience. I'm not, you know,
downplaying anybody that had a loved one, like, pass away
from anything else, but this whole experience with this was not
expected. And I felt for the first year or so
that maybe there was something I could have done differently or
(04:17):
I could have, you know, maybe try to stop him from
going to the hospital or something. But my
realization was it was his time and there's
nothing that I could have done about that. Hi, thank you for joining me
here today. Make sure that you subscribe to the
podcast if you are interested in anything that I have to teach. If you
(04:39):
want to learn more, make sure you ask questions below
in the comments and I'll make sure to answer them.
Come back regularly because I teach many different
subjects to do with grief, spiritual development and
spiritual crisis. So make sure. Subscribe below.
I'm so glad you said that. That's so important because
(05:03):
there's a great. There's a great
problem, I think, in people that gone through a grief journey is everybody and
for everybody is even in our group, they always think they could have done
more. And even my wife losing,
as you know, I like yourself, lost lots of people this year,
last year than this year. And you always think you could
(05:25):
do more. But there's some comfort in
realizing and I think it's brilliant that you've come to that point where you've accepted
it and said, okay, it was his time. And I think that is such
a transformational aspect to recognize that.
And he was the kind of person that since I've met him. He said, you
know, we're only here a short time. This is not home.
(05:47):
Home is over there. And I don't know if he just had an
inkling, maybe his life would be shorter or, you know, he
just felt home was over there. And I was at peace with that, you know,
like, that he thought that way. And I
actually feel closer to him now than when he was here. We were just
so busy all the time. He was working late all the time,
(06:09):
and he Taking care of people. And now I just feel like he's
always with me and he's helping me with things. I do
honor him. From day one, we. His birthday's in
July. Every July, I get family and friends together at the beach that he
loved. And we all. You've sent us some photos in the group and things like
that where you've been celebrating barbecues and this. That's
(06:32):
awesome. Yeah, we all get together at the beach, and we just hang out for
the day at the beach and just like, kind of party and celebrate him.
And we've been doing that since, like, the first summer. Now, let
me ask you this. Did you ever. Because one of the things that people
maybe don't understand is they think that their loved ones are
gone. Right. And whether it's bound by
(06:55):
any religious perceptions or even societal
perceptions, there's an element. There's. Many people think that once
they're gone, they've gone. And of course, there's materialist scientists that kind of think that
as well. But did you feel in your heart that
he was not gone? Because it wasn't long after you started
getting little signs of his presence?
(07:19):
It was. Let me rephrase that. Did you find that
first? Because I know the physical loss, when we miss someone
physically, it's terrible. It's terrible for us all
emotionally. And there's an element where we do feel that loss. But
did you feel that said he's gone, and it took you a while maybe to
get into that? No, he's closer. I feel him. Or
(07:41):
did you know straight away? Well, he was a
big presence here. And he, I
believe, is still a big presence where he is. And he tried to get
in touch with me. I had called a psychic, actually, and I
left a message with the secretary, like, a month later after he passed away.
And the secretary never got back to me. So I was putting away Christmas
(08:04):
things in the. In the cabinet. And he was a big Christmas person.
And I'm sitting there thinking, like, oh, you know, it's just terrible. You're not
here. All of a sudden, I get a phone call from the psychic himself.
And he said, I know you left a message with my secretary, and she
didn't get back to you, but I'm getting this nudge to call you. Like, I
have to call you and give you a message. And he said, I have
(08:26):
time right now if you want to do a reading. And I said, really? I
said, okay. It was like nighttime during the week, and I. I didn't make an
appointment. And the psychic came through with him and gave
me, like, validation that he is still around. He
pointed to something. He said to me, you know, you have
something on your fireplace, and it's like
(08:48):
a snow globe. And I said, yes, that is right
there on the fireplace. I just got it from my son because it was a
village by this fireplace where. Because my husband was big with making
villages around the tree, and he was known for that. And he pointed
that out. And I just knew he was always around me. Like, he tried to
get in touch with me. I went to. After I went to
(09:09):
Nashville, me and my sister saw two orange butterflies fly by our
faces. And then I kept seeing butterflies after that.
The first Christmas, because of you, actually, we had that meeting
with the widow group, and you said to buy a gift
from them. And I bought a little charm with a butterfly from him. And I
opened it Christmas morning. I have that.
(09:34):
I love that you did that. Yeah, I did that. I
was in the car one time praying to him, and I look
over, and a car went past me, and it had his name, Jeff,
on the license plate. And things like that,
like, keep happening lights. When I go out, I go to, like, his
favorite places to eat, and lights over me are flashing. They're
(09:57):
blinking. His. His are good friends. I go
to their house by the beach or. Or out with them. Songs come
on the radio that they know, like, you know, or like, the lights
flash. Their TV pops on. I know he's always
around me. Do you ever get to the
point where you question yourself, is
(10:19):
this real? Is he real? Because I know a lot of people do. And
to the point, is he really communicating with me, or is
it just my mind? Or do you know deep in your heart? No, that was
for me. And I understand that. I know
deep in my heart it's him because I feel it. I feel the connection. And
I know that he was the type of person that would try to let
(10:41):
us know he's around. And he loved his family and friends so
much that I know he's always with us, whatever we're doing.
And so I never questioned it. I always had faith in that.
Now there's a big thing that I always teach, and I think I've said this
many times to tell stories. And
I get the feeling that you guys are big storytellers. And so do you
(11:04):
sit with your friends and talk about him still?
Oh, my God. Or do they find it difficult to talk about him?
In the very beginning, it was kind of hard, but
now we just talk about it when we get together. There were so many stories
when he was here of things going on, and we constantly bring them
up, and it's just we talk about them all the time.
(11:27):
I often say, I'm going to ask you this as well. I often say to
people, no matter if I'm sitting, doing readings for someone
or a group or family, whatever it is, I talk about the power of storytelling.
Bio. I always ask people to tell me their
funniest story that they have of them,
because some people find it very difficult if their loved one has been ill
(11:48):
or if their loved one has gone. And with COVID it was
almost like a biblical plague. It just came down from nothing. And then
so many people passed. Yeah. And so many people
gone. And we kind of lose. We feel disconnected and we
lose that connection. But I think storytelling and doing things, it
makes it really funny. So share with people out
(12:10):
there one of the funniest things you can remember about
him that might even help them to jog their memory
to think about something funny that helped about their loved one.
There are so many stories, especially with him growing up. I wasn't around
him growing up, but his best friends know his stories, and they're all
hysterical out at the clubs and everything. Stuff that he has done.
(12:34):
He was hysterical in himself, and I can't
pinpoint just one, but he was just somebody
that, you know, you knew he was in the room when he was there. You
know what I mean? He was always a jokester. You never knew if he was
some, you know, whatever he said was true because he would
keep, like, a face like that was like, you know, stoic. And then he
(12:55):
would be like, laughing like, oh, you don't believe that, do you? You know, so
he always did stuff like that. And
the memories just flow, like when we're all together, you know what I mean? And
like, like, like different stories come up with different people.
But do you feel that you have
grown on your grief journey? I
(13:18):
definitely feel I've grown on my grief journey. I try to live
for this lifetime that we have.
I try to Be kinder to people, and I try to help people.
Um, he was big believer in helping all kind of people
and being there for everyone, and he kind of taught me that too.
And so I kind of live through him like that. I try to do things
(13:41):
for him that he would have done. So I think I have
definitely grown. You know, I look at myself more and see
what I can improve on to be a better person.
You know, I think I definitely have grown for like the three years.
And obviously when you came and joined pillars
(14:01):
of grief or community, did that
help you in any way to be part of a community that
was on the same journey as you? That definitely helped me.
I have so much support too, with, like, family and friends that
I don't know that I couldn't do without it. But the
group, the COVID widows group, have helped me tremendously from the
(14:25):
beginning because I couldn't believe there was other. So many other people, people that
went through the same thing as me. You know, you just,
like, you think at first, like, you're the only one like that, like, why did
this happen? And feel alone. You feel alone. And
that that group has helped me tremendously. I know how grief and spiritual
crisis can affect you. I've been on that
(14:47):
journey for many, many years. And if you've got any
questions about grief, about spiritual
crisis, about. About spiritual development, then leave them below,
because I answer every question. And
I invite you, if you would like, support in your grief
journey, to join my private community, you can find that link below.
(15:09):
And if you want to work with me one to one, then you can also
find that link below. Don't forget to subscribe to
the channel, and I look forward to connecting with you soon.
Have you ever
in community, often you have people that. You've got a
(15:30):
support network, you've got people that support you, but also you've got people that
are frightened of facing. Have you come across that as well? They're kind of
frightened to face grief or they're frightened to face the loss or even
talk to you about the loss. For
a while I just felt like some people maybe didn't know how to approach
me and they just ignored it. And it felt like it
(15:53):
felt like it didn't matter, maybe, or they're over it or something
like that. But as I've grown, I realize people don't know what
to say. They don't want to upset you, you know what I mean?
Or say the wrong thing, because there's a lot of
triggers, you know, during grief. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. So there are a mixture of people like that even within my
(16:15):
family. But for the most part, I tremendously
had support that, like I said, I couldn't do without that.
Have you been able to feel that you can express yourself? Because a lot
of people that I speak to and a lot of people that contact me.
In fact, we've just got a new member in the group now who's, you
know, doesn't. Her name. Actually, she'll probably tell
(16:39):
her stories as well. Lustine, who's in our group.
She and others face
negativities as such in their community because people
are terrified, don't know what to say to them or tell them that
they kind of downplay the grief. They downplay it.
(17:00):
And there's an element where people don't understand
what you're going through and you feel that you can't express
yourself. So we have members that have been
part of our group, people that I know that they're
terrified to express themselves because they feel as if they're going to be
judged. Is that anything that you went through on your. I mean,
(17:23):
we're all still on the journey. You're never going to go off a journey. But
do you feel that at the beginning you felt you
were held back? You couldn't express yourself because you maybe felt
you don't know how other people are going to take it, or they didn't know
how you were. You were going to take it? Yes. Have you got to a
point now where you just express it? Definitely. I've had certain
(17:45):
people that I just kind of downplayed it
and just cried to myself, you know what I mean? Because
I was afraid to either get them really upset
themselves or I didn't want to put them in an uncomfortable situation.
The other ones were people maybe more close to me
(18:05):
and they kind of understood. For me, it's
like me and him had such a. You know, Jeff had such a great love
that sometimes I felt like people didn't understand that
maybe didn't have that in their life or something like that, or they didn't understand
us as a couple. So they kind of didn't understand my grief
as that as it was or what I was going through.
(18:27):
But you have to just kind of be yourself and let it out, I think,
and just. That's a great thing to. That's a great thing that you've
said. And I would say anybody listening out there, don't be afraid
to express your grief in any way. I'm not
afraid. I mean, I. When I lost my mother in law I
bawled like a baby when I was in
(18:49):
Starbucks. So you never, never
be afraid of it. And I'm glad that you said that. I know I mortify
my mother. One day she was asking me to go to a store and that's.
I forced myself to go to a lot of places that we have been.
And that's the way I've grown too, because I am able to go there
now. But this one I won't go to. We went there all the time. And
(19:11):
she said, go to this place. And I said, I can't do it. And she
goes, what's the big deal? I started crying and it was like a trigger. And
she was mortified and I felt bad, but I was like, I still can't do
that. I'm like, no, I'm like, I'm like, I've done a lot of things in
the three years, but that's something I haven't done. And I don't know
if I want to. You know, there's other places that we've been to. Like
(19:33):
the last trip we went on, I don't know if I'll be able to go
back there. I mean, I could force myself, but it's a melt me and him
had, you know what I mean? In time, in time. And
there's no, there's never any rush for it. And that kind of brings me on
to another subject that I think.
That. I think is important as well. And I think you had mentioned this before,
(19:55):
in our community, your loved ones,
belongings, right? People
are misunderstand. They think it's just
things just give it away. And there's an element of truth where
when you give things away, as I
mentioned, in our community, you give it away with purpose to people that will
(20:16):
love it and cherish it. But some people don't understand things and like
just give it away to charity or whatever else, or just get rid of this
stuff because it triggers you. And since
with all the losses that I've had and even recently, my
wife is like, I've got this. I can't give it away. And I totally understand
that. You don't have to. And they'll come a time. How did you
(20:38):
cope with that part of your journey? Because obviously there's many things
in your life and didn't you make stuff at
one point? Yes. So in the very beginning, like that first
year, I started with his clothes and
you know, he was always very careful with his clothes. He took good care of
them. And I wanted people to have a memory of remembering him when he
(21:00):
wore certain things. So I had made pillows out of his shirts.
That's what I was getting at. I remember it was amazing. I had pillows, I
remember that. And I gave it to certain people that remember that shirt, you
know what I mean? Like his friends, we were at their daughter's wedding, wedding. So
I gave them that pillow with that shirt. They have that at their beach house.
I give other people other clothes that would remember him. So
(21:22):
I kind of honored him that way and gave it to certain people.
I made little. I had little bags made out of like shorts of his, like
makeup. I remember that because I said. Because it was one
of the things I think I had done a. An episode or a lesson
about when you get rid of things to make it mean something.
And you came in with all this. I've got these and I've got this. I
(21:45):
did this. I put pillows out. And I thought, you know what? That is absolutely
amazing. And anybody who's listening out there, take
a leaf out of what Denise did. You don't need to be frightened of that.
You can think of so many creative ways to
honor your loved one. And that's a phenomenal way,
right? I mean, they even have those blankets, those
(22:06):
memory blankets. You could get the T shirts and cut them up and make like
the memory blankets out of them. We actually did one together before he
passed away that last summer. And we took all our T shirts from years
of like different trips we went on and different things to remember.
So I have that. And I also made one of his leftover T shirts for
his mother after he passed and gave her a blanket, like made out of all
(22:28):
his T shirts. Do you know what? That's. I think that's
amazing. There was, I'll tell you a little story, but one time, not
about giving in the way, but it's a really. I was doing a reading for
someone in Wales and I was sitting on a chair,
but the chair had something underneath it that was like kind of box. It was
a bit weird. And I kept on saying,
(22:49):
I said, he keeps talking about this chair that I'm sitting on, this chair.
There's something under here that belongs to him. She said, yeah, it's his ashes. Well,
I totally freed him because I was sitting on his ashes.
That's got like. That's really, really weird. These
are stories that mean something. They're funny. And it's,
you know, having some of these ashes. And you know, one of the things
(23:12):
that my mother in law said to me before she passed,
that any ashes that we had she wanted to go down and scatter them near
the bay, but it had to be a windy day, so that blew back in
everybody's face. So I. So
I think it's important to share funny moments and things
like that and memorialize people in many ways. And what you've done
(23:33):
with all the stuff that Jeff had that you've
made, people will cherish them and I think that's something that people
can learn from. But you did something else really,
really unusual. Tell us about that.
What, what's the other thing I did? You created your book.
Oh, my book. Yeah. So I went to his desk one day,
(23:55):
looked in the drawer and he had a list of part time jobs, I
guess after he retired. And one of them was a part
time children's book author. And he had the idea
of, you know, when children are sitting in the house now, just
working on the video games and not playing outside like he did.
So I honored him with the book, with this book.
(24:18):
Bring it up close to your camera so we can see it. What's this called?
What's it called? It's called the Adventures of Jeffrey and. Friends and it's
on Amazon. And I created this book for
him, but I honored his two brothers and his friends that
he was very close to and they are in the book.
So I presented each one after the book was done.
(24:40):
You know, I surprised them with the book and they all have this book
and they're all with him, you know,
doing adventures together, like what he used to do when he grew up,
kickball and, you know, manhunt and
making memories together. And actually he was a big memory
person. Yeah, I did this in his honor.
(25:02):
And how did you put it together, Denise? Because it's, I mean, that's a lot
of work to do. But I know I've written books.
I just, I just like thought about him, you know,
exactly what he would do and with his friends and,
you know, each person I was had in my mind like what they
would do and I don't know, I just took notes and it came
(25:26):
together. It helped. You didn't. He was helping you.
Absolutely. Now when obviously
did you get hired an artist or someone to do it or.
It was just a company that I worked with. So they did, they did
the, the art and the publishing and it's on Amazon now.
So yeah, I was excited. How was that for you? How was
(25:50):
that for you? I mean, it's very cathartic to do something like that. But do
you think a project like that was
very healing for you? Like how did it help
you to do that? It helped me because
it's something that he wanted to accomplish, so I kind of did it
for him. And, you know, I wanted to make him proud still.
(26:12):
So it was something, an accomplishment that I carried out for him
as well as me. And it was something I wanted to
honor him with, and I wanted to kind of incorporate his brothers and
his friends in something. Oh, my God, I
bet you honestly, to be a fly on the wall when you gave it, you
gave that book to them. I know one of them, his really good friend got
(26:35):
upset and, you know, obviously. Yeah,
yeah, because they weren't expecting it. You know, it just came, got delivered from
Amazon and I explained what I did. They didn't know ahead of time,
so it was something that I just given each one of them.
No, it's a children's book. It's in Memory Jeff. But I have
a funny feeling that adults are going to enjoy reading
(26:57):
it as well, because there's an
immense amount of energy and compassion and
love, not just for a child, but for anybody. Who'S lost
somebody that's from how we were years ago. You know what I mean? Like
how the memories matter and the friends matter,
you know, not just sitting home by yourself and working on the video
(27:19):
games or being by yourself. It's about people and connection
and being there for each other. And so I think
adults would enjoy it, too. I understand the grief journey.
I understand what you go through, the spiritual
crisis or even in development, spiritual development.
(27:39):
And so if you've got a question about grief, about
spiritual crisis, about spiritual development, then ask those
questions below, and I will answer them to the best of my knowledge
and experience. I will answer every question. And if you are
looking for more support on your grief journey, then I invite you to join
my private community. You'll find that link below.
(28:02):
And if you want to work with me personally, one to one, then
you can also do that. And that link is also below.
God bless. What has been the greatest thing that Jeff taught you
in your life? The greatest thing would be
family is very important, and the people connection
and helping others. That was always something that he
(28:24):
believed in, and he did. Everybody loved him,
and I just want to carry that out for him and be like an
extension of him, you know, and for the rest of my life,
try to be the best person that I can be for other people
and help them be here for our sons. And
I might even write a book for our sons and maybe one of our
(28:47):
vacations or something like that, you know, like Put that in the book and honor
them that way. But he was
always a people person, and connection is, like, very important.
I think it's brilliant. And the way that you've honoured your
husband, the way that you carry on his memory, I think a lot of people
(29:07):
can learn from that out there. They can learn
that grief is not
something everybody goes through. And it's not just
about loss, about losing a loved one. It can be any kind of loss.
But losing a loved one, losing someone as close to you is
hard enough to deal with. But you're an example of how you
(29:31):
can harness that grief
and turn it around into something really positive. And I hope that
anybody who listens to you today and anybody who can get a feel for you
knows that you're always going to be on a grief
journey. But it gets easier, and you can learn so much from it. As I
always say, it can be your greatest nemesis or your greatest teacher is totally up
(29:54):
to you. I think the ways in which you're honoring your husband
is phenomenal. And I would urge anybody out there, what is it that you can
do? What is it that your husband or your boyfriend or
your friend, what did the love that you can carry on. And
it's not always easy. You still have ups and downs.
Yes, there's still ups and downs. There's triggers. You know,
(30:17):
the physical part of him is not here, even though I feel
the connection, you know, with him around. But,
you know, it's just something you have to learn to live with and, you
know, and get back into your life, you know, and start with happy things
again and, you know, try to live like, you know, for them
and do the best that you can and, you know, you still have a life
(30:40):
here to live. Like, you know, we're here for a reason and, you
know, you still have to live your life and be the best that you can
and, you know, try to see what your purpose is and just carry
on, but carry on for them and, you know, know that they are with you,
like, all the time. That's awesome.
Denise, thank you for being with me today on Telusa
(31:00):
Grief. I think your words are beautiful. I think they're going to help
so many people that are listening. And ladies and gentlemen, if you want
to join, if you're out there in your grieving, you're on a journey, you want
to join our community, then you can do so. There'll be a link in the
description. And it doesn't matter if you're an adult
and you could just buy this book just to
(31:21):
make you smile. And if you've lost, no matter who you've lost in your
life, yes, the book's about children, but there's probably a lot more
in that book than meets the eye. It probably teaches
you a lot more. Yeah, it teaches you a lot. And I would
envisage, I would suggest anybody out there to go and
click, get the link to the book and buy the
(31:44):
book. I mean, it's on Amazon. How much is it?
$15. $15 is nothing. $15 to make
you smile is actually probably cheaper than going in for
a couple of Starbucks, you know. So $15 to make you smile.
Think about Jeff. Think about Denise. Think about how she
carried on that memory. And then think about what you can do.
(32:07):
Think about how you can carry on your loved one's memory. What is it that
you can help someone else from and what
can you do with their belongings? There's been some great
information here today and Denise, I want to thank you for joining me. It's
been fantastic. Thank you. And I can't wait to read your next
book and whatever else you're doing and I can't wait to share this with
(32:30):
the rest of the community as well. And I'm sure there's going to be lots
and lots of people that are going to connect with you and
hopefully get that book and share in your journey, your grief
journey. It's hard to come on something like this and
be raw and open and talk about your journey, but I think it's important
because it's all very well, people who are considered experts been on. I think
(32:52):
it's great to have you on and I thank you for sharing everything
with this community and anybody who listens to it in the
podcast. Thanks, Denise. If I can help one person, I mean, it would
make me so happy. I said that's brilliant. Okay, God
bless. Thank you. I know her grief and spiritual
crisis can affect you. I've been on that
(33:14):
journey for many, many years. And if you've got any
questions about grief, about spiritual
crisis, about spiritual development, then leave them below
because I answer every question. And
I invite you, if you would like support in your grief
journey, to join my private community. You can find that link below.
(33:36):
And if you want to work with me one to one, then you can also
find that link below. Don't forget to subscribe to
the channel and I look forward to connecting with you soon.
Good morning, good evening, or good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, wherever you are in the
world. This is Jock here. This is Pillars and Grief. And
I'm delighted. Today is different. I'm delighted. I've actually
got one of the members of my community
who has been grieving for several years, and I thought it would
be a great experience to bring her
(00:33):
on to talk a little bit about her experiences and
also how she's memorialized her lost,
which is a fabulous way of what
she's actually done. And we'll talk a little bit about how
she's grown through this grief journey in the
hopes that people that listen to
(00:55):
my friend from our group will realize
that grief is nothing to be frightened of, and it's something that
can actually be a good
path to development. So welcome Denise
Mac from Pillars of Grief. How are you? I'm
okay. I'm doing good. So let's talk a
(01:17):
little bit about your loss without obviously,
you know, trying not. I mean, forget emotional. Get emotional, but that's one of these
things. But, you know, let us know a little bit about your loss and how
it kind of hit you when it
first happened. So, like, three years ago
in November, me and my husband, Jeff, we both got Covid at
(01:40):
the same time, and we were dealing with it at home together,
and he seemed fine, that, you know, everything was gonna
turn out good and we both were going to recover. And then
one night, he just took a turn for the worse, and he thought he was
going to go to the hospital for the infusion therapy.
I stayed home because I wasn't feeling good. And he went himself.
(02:02):
He actually drove himself to the hospital, and I
just said, I'll see you in a couple hours, you know. Then all of a
sudden, he was calling me, telling me they admitted him,
and, you know, they couldn't give him the infusion therapy. He was in
that hospital for, like a week. He was trying to breathe. It
got worse, but he was eating and everything, and I never thought
(02:25):
anything. And then
one night, he took a turn for the worst, and they had to put him
in icu. And they told me that, you know, he had a hard time that
night. So after that,
they said they had to put him on the ventilator, and I wasn't expecting
that. And I said, I don't want you on the ventilator, because I heard not
(02:46):
so good things. And they said, well, it's either that
or he might not make it. And I actually talked to him on
the phone, and he didn't try to not go on the
Ventilator. So to me, it's something that he needed. And I wanted to
transfer out of the hospital here to like, I thought maybe a better hospital.
And he went to that hospital because they had ECMO there.
(03:09):
So the doctor said if he gets accepted and he needs
the ECMO treatment, which is the transfer of the blood,
to give him a chance, then he wanted him to go to the hospital too.
So he went to the hospital there, but he was on the ventilator the whole
time, and he was getting better. I was getting different reports every
day. I was getting better and he was recovering and he
(03:32):
was probably going to get off the ventilator. And then
like three weeks later, I got the call that to come
to the hospital. And so I went to the hospital. I had his son
come, my son, his brother. And we had people
come there from our family and we didn't know what was going on.
And he was over Covid and.
(03:55):
But he got sepsis. So that's really what happened in the
end. The whole experience. I'm not, you know,
downplaying anybody that had a loved one, like, pass away
from anything else, but this whole experience with this was not
expected. And I felt for the first year or so
that maybe there was something I could have done differently or
(04:17):
I could have, you know, maybe try to stop him from
going to the hospital or something. But my
realization was it was his time and there's
nothing that I could have done about that. Hi, thank you for joining me
here today. Make sure that you subscribe to the
podcast if you are interested in anything that I have to teach. If you
(04:39):
want to learn more, make sure you ask questions below
in the comments and I'll make sure to answer them.
Come back regularly because I teach many different
subjects to do with grief, spiritual development and
spiritual crisis. So make sure. Subscribe below.
I'm so glad you said that. That's so important because
(05:03):
there's a great. There's a great
problem, I think, in people that gone through a grief journey is everybody and
for everybody is even in our group, they always think they could have done
more. And even my wife losing,
as you know, I like yourself, lost lots of people this year,
last year than this year. And you always think you could
(05:25):
do more. But there's some comfort in
realizing and I think it's brilliant that you've come to that point where you've accepted
it and said, okay, it was his time. And I think that is such
a transformational aspect to recognize that.
And he was the kind of person that since I've met him. He said, you
know, we're only here a short time. This is not home.
(05:47):
Home is over there. And I don't know if he just had an
inkling, maybe his life would be shorter or, you know, he
just felt home was over there. And I was at peace with that, you know,
like, that he thought that way. And I
actually feel closer to him now than when he was here. We were just
so busy all the time. He was working late all the time,
(06:09):
and he Taking care of people. And now I just feel like he's
always with me and he's helping me with things. I do
honor him. From day one, we. His birthday's in
July. Every July, I get family and friends together at the beach that he
loved. And we all. You've sent us some photos in the group and things like
that where you've been celebrating barbecues and this. That's
(06:32):
awesome. Yeah, we all get together at the beach, and we just hang out for
the day at the beach and just like, kind of party and celebrate him.
And we've been doing that since, like, the first summer. Now, let
me ask you this. Did you ever. Because one of the things that people
maybe don't understand is they think that their loved ones are
gone. Right. And whether it's bound by
(06:55):
any religious perceptions or even societal
perceptions, there's an element. There's. Many people think that once
they're gone, they've gone. And of course, there's materialist scientists that kind of think that
as well. But did you feel in your heart that
he was not gone? Because it wasn't long after you started
getting little signs of his presence?
(07:19):
It was. Let me rephrase that. Did you find that
first? Because I know the physical loss, when we miss someone
physically, it's terrible. It's terrible for us all
emotionally. And there's an element where we do feel that loss. But
did you feel that said he's gone, and it took you a while maybe to
get into that? No, he's closer. I feel him. Or
(07:41):
did you know straight away? Well, he was a
big presence here. And he, I
believe, is still a big presence where he is. And he tried to get
in touch with me. I had called a psychic, actually, and I
left a message with the secretary, like, a month later after he passed away.
And the secretary never got back to me. So I was putting away Christmas
(08:04):
things in the. In the cabinet. And he was a big Christmas person.
And I'm sitting there thinking, like, oh, you know, it's just terrible. You're not
here. All of a sudden, I get a phone call from the psychic himself.
And he said, I know you left a message with my secretary, and she
didn't get back to you, but I'm getting this nudge to call you. Like, I
have to call you and give you a message. And he said, I have
(08:26):
time right now if you want to do a reading. And I said, really? I
said, okay. It was like nighttime during the week, and I. I didn't make an
appointment. And the psychic came through with him and gave
me, like, validation that he is still around. He
pointed to something. He said to me, you know, you have
something on your fireplace, and it's like
(08:48):
a snow globe. And I said, yes, that is right
there on the fireplace. I just got it from my son because it was a
village by this fireplace where. Because my husband was big with making
villages around the tree, and he was known for that. And he pointed
that out. And I just knew he was always around me. Like, he tried to
get in touch with me. I went to. After I went to
(09:09):
Nashville, me and my sister saw two orange butterflies fly by our
faces. And then I kept seeing butterflies after that.
The first Christmas, because of you, actually, we had that meeting
with the widow group, and you said to buy a gift
from them. And I bought a little charm with a butterfly from him. And I
opened it Christmas morning. I have that.
(09:34):
I love that you did that. Yeah, I did that. I
was in the car one time praying to him, and I look
over, and a car went past me, and it had his name, Jeff,
on the license plate. And things like that,
like, keep happening lights. When I go out, I go to, like, his
favorite places to eat, and lights over me are flashing. They're
(09:57):
blinking. His. His are good friends. I go
to their house by the beach or. Or out with them. Songs come
on the radio that they know, like, you know, or like, the lights
flash. Their TV pops on. I know he's always
around me. Do you ever get to the
point where you question yourself, is
(10:19):
this real? Is he real? Because I know a lot of people do. And
to the point, is he really communicating with me, or is
it just my mind? Or do you know deep in your heart? No, that was
for me. And I understand that. I know
deep in my heart it's him because I feel it. I feel the connection. And
I know that he was the type of person that would try to let
(10:41):
us know he's around. And he loved his family and friends so
much that I know he's always with us, whatever we're doing.
And so I never questioned it. I always had faith in that.
Now there's a big thing that I always teach, and I think I've said this
many times to tell stories. And
I get the feeling that you guys are big storytellers. And so do you
(11:04):
sit with your friends and talk about him still?
Oh, my God. Or do they find it difficult to talk about him?
In the very beginning, it was kind of hard, but
now we just talk about it when we get together. There were so many stories
when he was here of things going on, and we constantly bring them
up, and it's just we talk about them all the time.
(11:27):
I often say, I'm going to ask you this as well. I often say to
people, no matter if I'm sitting, doing readings for someone
or a group or family, whatever it is, I talk about the power of storytelling.
Bio. I always ask people to tell me their
funniest story that they have of them,
because some people find it very difficult if their loved one has been ill
(11:48):
or if their loved one has gone. And with COVID it was
almost like a biblical plague. It just came down from nothing. And then
so many people passed. Yeah. And so many people
gone. And we kind of lose. We feel disconnected and we
lose that connection. But I think storytelling and doing things, it
makes it really funny. So share with people out
(12:10):
there one of the funniest things you can remember about
him that might even help them to jog their memory
to think about something funny that helped about their loved one.
There are so many stories, especially with him growing up. I wasn't around
him growing up, but his best friends know his stories, and they're all
hysterical out at the clubs and everything. Stuff that he has done.
(12:34):
He was hysterical in himself, and I can't
pinpoint just one, but he was just somebody
that, you know, you knew he was in the room when he was there. You
know what I mean? He was always a jokester. You never knew if he was
some, you know, whatever he said was true because he would
keep, like, a face like that was like, you know, stoic. And then he
(12:55):
would be like, laughing like, oh, you don't believe that, do you? You know, so
he always did stuff like that. And
the memories just flow, like when we're all together, you know what I mean? And
like, like, like different stories come up with different people.
But do you feel that you have
grown on your grief journey? I
(13:18):
definitely feel I've grown on my grief journey. I try to live
for this lifetime that we have.
I try to Be kinder to people, and I try to help people.
Um, he was big believer in helping all kind of people
and being there for everyone, and he kind of taught me that too.
And so I kind of live through him like that. I try to do things
(13:41):
for him that he would have done. So I think I have
definitely grown. You know, I look at myself more and see
what I can improve on to be a better person.
You know, I think I definitely have grown for like the three years.
And obviously when you came and joined pillars
(14:01):
of grief or community, did that
help you in any way to be part of a community that
was on the same journey as you? That definitely helped me.
I have so much support too, with, like, family and friends that
I don't know that I couldn't do without it. But the
group, the COVID widows group, have helped me tremendously from the
(14:25):
beginning because I couldn't believe there was other. So many other people, people that
went through the same thing as me. You know, you just,
like, you think at first, like, you're the only one like that, like, why did
this happen? And feel alone. You feel alone. And
that that group has helped me tremendously. I know how grief and spiritual
crisis can affect you. I've been on that
(14:47):
journey for many, many years. And if you've got any
questions about grief, about spiritual
crisis, about. About spiritual development, then leave them below,
because I answer every question. And
I invite you, if you would like, support in your grief
journey, to join my private community, you can find that link below.
(15:09):
And if you want to work with me one to one, then you can also
find that link below. Don't forget to subscribe to
the channel, and I look forward to connecting with you soon.
Have you ever
in community, often you have people that. You've got a
(15:30):
support network, you've got people that support you, but also you've got people that
are frightened of facing. Have you come across that as well? They're kind of
frightened to face grief or they're frightened to face the loss or even
talk to you about the loss. For
a while I just felt like some people maybe didn't know how to approach
me and they just ignored it. And it felt like it
(15:53):
felt like it didn't matter, maybe, or they're over it or something
like that. But as I've grown, I realize people don't know what
to say. They don't want to upset you, you know what I mean?
Or say the wrong thing, because there's a lot of
triggers, you know, during grief. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. So there are a mixture of people like that even within my
(16:15):
family. But for the most part, I tremendously
had support that, like I said, I couldn't do without that.
Have you been able to feel that you can express yourself? Because a lot
of people that I speak to and a lot of people that contact me.
In fact, we've just got a new member in the group now who's, you
know, doesn't. Her name. Actually, she'll probably tell
(16:39):
her stories as well. Lustine, who's in our group.
She and others face
negativities as such in their community because people
are terrified, don't know what to say to them or tell them that
they kind of downplay the grief. They downplay it.
(17:00):
And there's an element where people don't understand
what you're going through and you feel that you can't express
yourself. So we have members that have been
part of our group, people that I know that they're
terrified to express themselves because they feel as if they're going to be
judged. Is that anything that you went through on your. I mean,
(17:23):
we're all still on the journey. You're never going to go off a journey. But
do you feel that at the beginning you felt you
were held back? You couldn't express yourself because you maybe felt
you don't know how other people are going to take it, or they didn't know
how you were. You were going to take it? Yes. Have you got to a
point now where you just express it? Definitely. I've had certain
(17:45):
people that I just kind of downplayed it
and just cried to myself, you know what I mean? Because
I was afraid to either get them really upset
themselves or I didn't want to put them in an uncomfortable situation.
The other ones were people maybe more close to me
(18:05):
and they kind of understood. For me, it's
like me and him had such a. You know, Jeff had such a great love
that sometimes I felt like people didn't understand that
maybe didn't have that in their life or something like that, or they didn't understand
us as a couple. So they kind of didn't understand my grief
as that as it was or what I was going through.
(18:27):
But you have to just kind of be yourself and let it out, I think,
and just. That's a great thing to. That's a great thing that you've
said. And I would say anybody listening out there, don't be afraid
to express your grief in any way. I'm not
afraid. I mean, I. When I lost my mother in law I
bawled like a baby when I was in
(18:49):
Starbucks. So you never, never
be afraid of it. And I'm glad that you said that. I know I mortify
my mother. One day she was asking me to go to a store and that's.
I forced myself to go to a lot of places that we have been.
And that's the way I've grown too, because I am able to go there
now. But this one I won't go to. We went there all the time. And
(19:11):
she said, go to this place. And I said, I can't do it. And she
goes, what's the big deal? I started crying and it was like a trigger. And
she was mortified and I felt bad, but I was like, I still can't do
that. I'm like, no, I'm like, I'm like, I've done a lot of things in
the three years, but that's something I haven't done. And I don't know
if I want to. You know, there's other places that we've been to. Like
(19:33):
the last trip we went on, I don't know if I'll be able to go
back there. I mean, I could force myself, but it's a melt me and him
had, you know what I mean? In time, in time. And
there's no, there's never any rush for it. And that kind of brings me on
to another subject that I think.
That. I think is important as well. And I think you had mentioned this before,
(19:55):
in our community, your loved ones,
belongings, right? People
are misunderstand. They think it's just
things just give it away. And there's an element of truth where
when you give things away, as I
mentioned, in our community, you give it away with purpose to people that will
(20:16):
love it and cherish it. But some people don't understand things and like
just give it away to charity or whatever else, or just get rid of this
stuff because it triggers you. And since
with all the losses that I've had and even recently, my
wife is like, I've got this. I can't give it away. And I totally understand
that. You don't have to. And they'll come a time. How did you
(20:38):
cope with that part of your journey? Because obviously there's many things
in your life and didn't you make stuff at
one point? Yes. So in the very beginning, like that first
year, I started with his clothes and
you know, he was always very careful with his clothes. He took good care of
them. And I wanted people to have a memory of remembering him when he
(21:00):
wore certain things. So I had made pillows out of his shirts.
That's what I was getting at. I remember it was amazing. I had pillows, I
remember that. And I gave it to certain people that remember that shirt, you
know what I mean? Like his friends, we were at their daughter's wedding, wedding. So
I gave them that pillow with that shirt. They have that at their beach house.
I give other people other clothes that would remember him. So
(21:22):
I kind of honored him that way and gave it to certain people.
I made little. I had little bags made out of like shorts of his, like
makeup. I remember that because I said. Because it was one
of the things I think I had done a. An episode or a lesson
about when you get rid of things to make it mean something.
And you came in with all this. I've got these and I've got this. I
(21:45):
did this. I put pillows out. And I thought, you know what? That is absolutely
amazing. And anybody who's listening out there, take
a leaf out of what Denise did. You don't need to be frightened of that.
You can think of so many creative ways to
honor your loved one. And that's a phenomenal way,
right? I mean, they even have those blankets, those
(22:06):
memory blankets. You could get the T shirts and cut them up and make like
the memory blankets out of them. We actually did one together before he
passed away that last summer. And we took all our T shirts from years
of like different trips we went on and different things to remember.
So I have that. And I also made one of his leftover T shirts for
his mother after he passed and gave her a blanket, like made out of all
(22:28):
his T shirts. Do you know what? That's. I think that's
amazing. There was, I'll tell you a little story, but one time, not
about giving in the way, but it's a really. I was doing a reading for
someone in Wales and I was sitting on a chair,
but the chair had something underneath it that was like kind of box. It was
a bit weird. And I kept on saying,
(22:49):
I said, he keeps talking about this chair that I'm sitting on, this chair.
There's something under here that belongs to him. She said, yeah, it's his ashes. Well,
I totally freed him because I was sitting on his ashes.
That's got like. That's really, really weird. These
are stories that mean something. They're funny. And it's,
you know, having some of these ashes. And you know, one of the things
(23:12):
that my mother in law said to me before she passed,
that any ashes that we had she wanted to go down and scatter them near
the bay, but it had to be a windy day, so that blew back in
everybody's face. So I. So
I think it's important to share funny moments and things
like that and memorialize people in many ways. And what you've done
(23:33):
with all the stuff that Jeff had that you've
made, people will cherish them and I think that's something that people
can learn from. But you did something else really,
really unusual. Tell us about that.
What, what's the other thing I did? You created your book.
Oh, my book. Yeah. So I went to his desk one day,
(23:55):
looked in the drawer and he had a list of part time jobs, I
guess after he retired. And one of them was a part
time children's book author. And he had the idea
of, you know, when children are sitting in the house now, just
working on the video games and not playing outside like he did.
So I honored him with the book, with this book.
(24:18):
Bring it up close to your camera so we can see it. What's this called?
What's it called? It's called the Adventures of Jeffrey and. Friends and it's
on Amazon. And I created this book for
him, but I honored his two brothers and his friends that
he was very close to and they are in the book.
So I presented each one after the book was done.
(24:40):
You know, I surprised them with the book and they all have this book
and they're all with him, you know,
doing adventures together, like what he used to do when he grew up,
kickball and, you know, manhunt and
making memories together. And actually he was a big memory
person. Yeah, I did this in his honor.
(25:02):
And how did you put it together, Denise? Because it's, I mean, that's a lot
of work to do. But I know I've written books.
I just, I just like thought about him, you know,
exactly what he would do and with his friends and,
you know, each person I was had in my mind like what they
would do and I don't know, I just took notes and it came
(25:26):
together. It helped. You didn't. He was helping you.
Absolutely. Now when obviously
did you get hired an artist or someone to do it or.
It was just a company that I worked with. So they did, they did
the, the art and the publishing and it's on Amazon now.
So yeah, I was excited. How was that for you? How was
(25:50):
that for you? I mean, it's very cathartic to do something like that. But do
you think a project like that was
very healing for you? Like how did it help
you to do that? It helped me because
it's something that he wanted to accomplish, so I kind of did it
for him. And, you know, I wanted to make him proud still.
(26:12):
So it was something, an accomplishment that I carried out for him
as well as me. And it was something I wanted to
honor him with, and I wanted to kind of incorporate his brothers and
his friends in something. Oh, my God, I
bet you honestly, to be a fly on the wall when you gave it, you
gave that book to them. I know one of them, his really good friend got
(26:35):
upset and, you know, obviously. Yeah,
yeah, because they weren't expecting it. You know, it just came, got delivered from
Amazon and I explained what I did. They didn't know ahead of time,
so it was something that I just given each one of them.
No, it's a children's book. It's in Memory Jeff. But I have
a funny feeling that adults are going to enjoy reading
(26:57):
it as well, because there's an
immense amount of energy and compassion and
love, not just for a child, but for anybody. Who'S lost
somebody that's from how we were years ago. You know what I mean? Like
how the memories matter and the friends matter,
you know, not just sitting home by yourself and working on the video
(27:19):
games or being by yourself. It's about people and connection
and being there for each other. And so I think
adults would enjoy it, too. I understand the grief journey.
I understand what you go through, the spiritual
crisis or even in development, spiritual development.
(27:39):
And so if you've got a question about grief, about
spiritual crisis, about spiritual development, then ask those
questions below, and I will answer them to the best of my knowledge
and experience. I will answer every question. And if you are
looking for more support on your grief journey, then I invite you to join
my private community. You'll find that link below.
(28:02):
And if you want to work with me personally, one to one, then
you can also do that. And that link is also below.
God bless. What has been the greatest thing that Jeff taught you
in your life? The greatest thing would be
family is very important, and the people connection
and helping others. That was always something that he
(28:24):
believed in, and he did. Everybody loved him,
and I just want to carry that out for him and be like an
extension of him, you know, and for the rest of my life,
try to be the best person that I can be for other people
and help them be here for our sons. And
I might even write a book for our sons and maybe one of our
(28:47):
vacations or something like that, you know, like Put that in the book and honor
them that way. But he was
always a people person, and connection is, like, very important.
I think it's brilliant. And the way that you've honoured your
husband, the way that you carry on his memory, I think a lot of people
(29:07):
can learn from that out there. They can learn
that grief is not
something everybody goes through. And it's not just
about loss, about losing a loved one. It can be any kind of loss.
But losing a loved one, losing someone as close to you is
hard enough to deal with. But you're an example of how you
(29:31):
can harness that grief
and turn it around into something really positive. And I hope that
anybody who listens to you today and anybody who can get a feel for you
knows that you're always going to be on a grief
journey. But it gets easier, and you can learn so much from it. As I
always say, it can be your greatest nemesis or your greatest teacher is totally up
(29:54):
to you. I think the ways in which you're honoring your husband
is phenomenal. And I would urge anybody out there, what is it that you can
do? What is it that your husband or your boyfriend or
your friend, what did the love that you can carry on. And
it's not always easy. You still have ups and downs.
Yes, there's still ups and downs. There's triggers. You know,
(30:17):
the physical part of him is not here, even though I feel
the connection, you know, with him around. But,
you know, it's just something you have to learn to live with and, you
know, and get back into your life, you know, and start with happy things
again and, you know, try to live like, you know, for them
and do the best that you can and, you know, you still have a life
(30:40):
here to live. Like, you know, we're here for a reason and, you
know, you still have to live your life and be the best that you can
and, you know, try to see what your purpose is and just carry
on, but carry on for them and, you know, know that they are with you,
like, all the time. That's awesome.
Denise, thank you for being with me today on Telusa
(31:00):
Grief. I think your words are beautiful. I think they're going to help
so many people that are listening. And ladies and gentlemen, if you want
to join, if you're out there in your grieving, you're on a journey, you want
to join our community, then you can do so. There'll be a link in the
description. And it doesn't matter if you're an adult
and you could just buy this book just to
(31:21):
make you smile. And if you've lost, no matter who you've lost in your
life, yes, the book's about children, but there's probably a lot more
in that book than meets the eye. It probably teaches
you a lot more. Yeah, it teaches you a lot. And I would
envisage, I would suggest anybody out there to go and
click, get the link to the book and buy the
(31:44):
book. I mean, it's on Amazon. How much is it?
$15. $15 is nothing. $15 to make
you smile is actually probably cheaper than going in for
a couple of Starbucks, you know. So $15 to make you smile.
Think about Jeff. Think about Denise. Think about how she
carried on that memory. And then think about what you can do.
(32:07):
Think about how you can carry on your loved one's memory. What is it that
you can help someone else from and what
can you do with their belongings? There's been some great
information here today and Denise, I want to thank you for joining me. It's
been fantastic. Thank you. And I can't wait to read your next
book and whatever else you're doing and I can't wait to share this with
(32:30):
the rest of the community as well. And I'm sure there's going to be lots
and lots of people that are going to connect with you and
hopefully get that book and share in your journey, your grief
journey. It's hard to come on something like this and
be raw and open and talk about your journey, but I think it's important
because it's all very well, people who are considered experts been on. I think
(32:52):
it's great to have you on and I thank you for sharing everything
with this community and anybody who listens to it in the
podcast. Thanks, Denise. If I can help one person, I mean, it would
make me so happy. I said that's brilliant. Okay, God
bless. Thank you. I know her grief and spiritual
crisis can affect you. I've been on that
(33:14):
journey for many, many years. And if you've got any
questions about grief, about spiritual
crisis, about spiritual development, then leave them below
because I answer every question. And
I invite you, if you would like support in your grief
journey, to join my private community. You can find that link below.
(33:36):
And if you want to work with me one to one, then you can also
find that link below. Don't forget to subscribe to
the channel and I look forward to connecting with you soon.
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