March 13, 2025 • 25 mins
Natasha Brand and Jenn Ramczyk never had the opportunity to play organized soccer as young girls. Now, they're transforming the landscape for women across America as co-founders of Her Game Too USA.
Growing up in England, Natasha recalls how soccer simply "wasn't for girls" - schools divided sports strictly by gender, leaving girls to play informal street games without proper pathways into the sport. Meanwhile, Jenn's playing career was cut tragically short by injury, redirecting her passion toward fandom and advocacy. Their parallel journeys converged when both independently reached out to Caz May, founder of the original Her Game Too initiative in the UK, hoping to bring the movement stateside.
What makes their work particularly fascinating is how sexism manifests differently across the Atlantic. While British female fans faced blatant hostility with comments like "get back to the kitchen," American women often encounter more subtle forms of discrimination - surprised reactions when they demonstrate knowledge about the game or inappropriate behavior in sports bars. The Her Game Too USA team has also identified unique challenges facing female referees, many of whom lack proper reporting avenues when experiencing abuse.
Operating entirely through volunteer efforts as a registered nonprofit, the team faces considerable challenges in a country five times the size of the UK. Despite their perceived "slow pace," they've already secured partnerships with ten professional clubs while building a network of female club ambassadors across the nation. Their determination speaks volumes about the necessity of their work.
Ready to support this vital mission? Follow Her Game Too USA on social media @hergametoo.us and visit hergametoo.com to learn how you can help create a more inclusive soccer culture for everyone.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Pitch to Pro is the official podcast of Ozark United
FC.
This will be our platform totell our story about the club
and the special place that wecall home, northwest Arkansas.
This is a journey we want tobring you along for the ride.
We'll share what's going onbehind the curtain, help educate
the community at large aboutsoccer, our league, and give
(00:25):
updates on the progress of theclub along the way.
Together, we'll explore andunpack our journey to
professional soccer, the magicthat is NWA, our community, and
talk all things soccer from onthe pitch to behind the scenes,
telling the story of our club.
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(01:07):
Hello everybody and welcomeback to the Pitch the Pro
podcast.
I'm your host, wes Harris,managing Director for Ozark
United FC, northwest Arkansas'professional soccer club,
playing in the United SoccerLeague.
I'm really excited about ourepisode today.
I'm joined by Ms Natasha Brandand Ms Jen Ramczyk, co-founders
of Her Game 2 USA.
We'll talk about that in asecond, but it's an initiative
(01:30):
focused on the advancement ofwomen in soccer.
To sum it up, there's a wholelot more underneath that which
we will get to, but, ladies,thank you so much for joining me
today.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
You're welcome.
How about us?
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Absolutely so.
Before we jump into her gametoo, I always start with this
and always love to hear people'sstories about how did you guys
find the game, how did you getinvolved in the game, what's
your backgrounds, where are youfrom, and just your, your
background and how you found thegame.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, kind of.
It's kind of strange for mebecause none of my family are
really football supporters inEngland, so it was hard, but I
guess everybody at school had ateam.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And so my local team is Norwich City.
And then that wasn't goodenough for my friends, so we all
had to have a Premier Leagueteam, so it was Manchester
United as well.
Now we're really getting intoit, I know, um, so now we're
really fighting.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You guys just have the right partnership here with
Liverpool and man U.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I mean you just get the banter going all day not so
much man U when Alex Fergusonleft, but die hard.
Lifelong Norwich supporterstill um and just.
There weren't really anyoptions for playing as a kid in
england for girls, so streetball yeah pick up games um
hanging out, watching the boysplay, going to local games in
(02:56):
town.
We live in setford so we hadsetford town okay um amateur
league football, so there wasn'treally too much incentive to
get in it because none of myfamily liked it.
So mum and dad never took me towatch a game.
It just grew through highschool I guess.
I wasn't allowed on the trainto go to Norwich because I went
(03:21):
to school in the 80s and we knowhow hooliganism was yeah, for
anybody that wants to understandwhat Natasha's talking about,
just go watch the movie GreenStreet Hooligans, you'll
understand.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
You will understand fantastic film.
You should watch it anyway.
But well, that's so interesting.
And and remind people why was,why were there no opportunities
and this is part of getting intoher game too and the initiative
.
But remind people why therethere no opportunities and this
is part of getting into her gametoo and the initiative.
But remind people why therewere no opportunities to play
for girls in England at thattime.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I mean, it was just the men's game and many of the
professional teams at that pointhad just started having women
play.
So another thing in England iswe didn't have soccer in school.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So that's the primary thing, that they were split
between girls and boys sportsVery much so.
So it was never, ever anopportunity for those of us
growing up in small town England.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
And up until very recently even, I mean as far as
history goes right.
So, and obviously, things thatyou know are part of what you
guys and the initiative aretrying to change, right.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, it wasn't for girls.
Yeah, according to boys.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, I have, as a dad of daughters and with a
sister and all of that.
It's absolutely for girls.
It's absolutely for girls.
That's one of the things Iactually love about soccer is it
is the world's game, it is foreveryone, full stop period,
regardless of where you comefrom, and all of that.
(04:55):
So that's actually one of myfavorite things about the sport
and why I love it so much.
But that's awesome.
I I will always support norwich, unless they're playing
liverpool, because, um, Iactually followed them a little
bit because of josh sergeantexactly um we have our token
american.
(05:15):
Yeah, that's right, he's greatand he's really found a home
there?
I think he really has, andthey've adopted him quite well
as yet, right yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
We're winning.
Now he's back from injury.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
A few more goals up front.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
There's a few more.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah Well, Jen, tell me a little bit about you.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
So I got into following soccer and the sport
in high school, went to all theboys' games, which is in the
fall, and I have a twin sisterso we go together and, uh, we
got to know the coach and he hadus hop on the bus and we got to
go to the away games.
So we were in part of likemanager of the boys team and
(05:57):
then when it came time for thegirls tryouts, which is in the
spring, we tried out, both of usand we both made the team.
But I I was only one year, uh,that I played, and my career was
very short because of an injury.
I got a girl stepped on me as Iwas turning so it twisted my
ankle and that was done.
Um, but I was a winger so I ranthe whole length of the pitch,
(06:20):
so ankles were quite important,um, so then it kind of became
just sit back and watch andenjoy the game and really learn
the technical side of things andwhat they're seeing.
So my dad laughs because I'lleven say no, you need to pass to
the right, and he sometimesgets frustrated and other times
he's like how did you know that?
(06:40):
But so I wish I could haveplayed longer, but it kind of
makes you, when you're forcedoffline, to do something
differently.
And then I started followingthe Premier League back in 1996.
So it's been quite some years,and it was Liverpool from then
on.
So I've been a Liverpoolsupporter ever since and I now
(07:03):
voyage to my homeland every year, and that's been the last five
years.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I love that.
That's actually the year that Ibecame a Liverpool supporter as
well, so I love that.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Just right after the big Champions League comeback,
which was 2005.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
That's right, that's right this conversation is going
downhill 96 for me.
Um, uk elite is a, a campprogram that traveled up and
down the eastern seaboard and,um, if you housed, they
obviously had overhead.
If they brought over you know,coaches from the uk to come and
(07:44):
a lot of them were either formeracademy players or academy
coaches or whatever and if youprovided housing for them and,
you know, fed them and took careof them for the week, then they
let your kids go for free.
So they're pretty middle class.
And my parents were like, yeah,we'll take two, we have two
boys that are old enough.
(08:04):
We have have two.
We have two boys, uh, that areold enough.
We have two younger ones, buttwo boys that are old enough to
go.
Yeah, so the first time I didthat, I was eight and, uh, one
of the coaches was fromliverpool and played in their
academy and coached in theiracademy, and this was at the
very start of, like youtube andinternet videos and he, uh, he
(08:25):
showed me a bunch of clips of,uh, steven Gerrard and just
Liverpool and the greats.
And um, it spent just a ton oftime training with us, you know,
and having fun just kickingabout in the in the yard after,
after training and beforetraining and stuff after the
camps, and so from then on I'vebeen a Liverpool fan obsessed
and, uh, I still keep in touchwith him, so it's pretty fun.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
CBG and Peter Kraus for the reason I became a
Liverpool fan which is odd tosay, peter Kraus because he
played for Liverpool back thenand I really liked when he was
playing for England during theWorld Cup and started tracing
back and he played for Liverpooland so did Steamy and I did my
homework.
What does Liverpool stand for?
What kind of team are they?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
and I just yeah, no, that's, that's such a good story
.
Uh, you actually uh wouldappreciate.
Our one of our co-founders,warren Smith, also had a very
short uh career in playing uhsoccer.
He, he, he uh had one game, oneminute, and he and he broke his
leg uh and and uh ended, endedhis uh soccer career.
(09:30):
So he always jokes that he hadthe shortest soccer career.
So he was, he was pretty doneafter that.
But I mean so you guys foundthe game, you know, maybe a
little bit later than some, butI mean some of the most ardent
supporters of the game and whatit does.
So what do you love about?
(09:52):
What is it that you love aboutsoccer?
What drew you to it?
Um, as fans, especially youhaving not played natasha uh as
a younger, you know yeah, wejust played on the street.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
So from as young as I can remember, playing out
growing up was with a football,so it was always there.
Even if your parents didn'tsupport it was just part of
culture.
Everybody played street ball.
It was, yeah, it was justnormal growing up.
So it's been as long as I canremember.
(10:24):
And then starting to follow onTV.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And it happened after .
So I didn't support Norwichuntil maybe middle school, high
school, but playing was always.
I can't remember a time thatthere wasn't that me and my
friends didn't play ball.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Just outside.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Yeah, we would just throw hoodies down on the green
and outside our houses, thegoalposts, and just play.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That's the magic of it and I love it and I wish we
need more of that in the US, inthat culture, and it's getting
there there, but still a longway to go yet we're very lucky
here in fentonville balavistabecause coach scott at sporting
um we've had a lot of successwith pickup games and, yeah, the
(11:14):
pickup, the pickup games, whichare open to everybody, is such
a huge part.
I mean, there was actually aninteresting interview, um, or a
coach's session or something,I'm not sure, but it was
actually from the liverpoolacademy and they talked about
the success of you know, theyreally wanted to understand the
you know, what is the differencebetween the players that make
(11:37):
it out of the academy and intothe first team or on to another
first team elsewhere?
Uh, between them and theplayers that make it out of the
Academy and into the first teamor onto another first team
elsewhere?
Uh, between them and the onesthat don't Right, because even
once you're in the Academy,you're part of the elite, but
then there's a lot, there's moreof them that don't make it
right.
Yeah, then do.
And so they were like well, wereally want to understand this
so we can replicate it.
And they studied them.
(11:57):
They studied what they ate,what they slept, what they read,
like, you know, for years andTrent was a part of this, you
know, and you know others andthey actually found one common
thread between all of them, andit wasn't, you know, drive, or
(12:17):
determination, or mental healthor you know whatever, right
footed or anything like that.
It was number of minutes playedpickup in their youth.
Oh, that was the difference,and the players that had played
the most pickup growing upactually were the ones.
(12:39):
More often than not, that werethe ones that that was.
What they had in common was howmuch they played pickup, which
is so anathema to the US model.
That's a whole other podcastepisode.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And makes you frustrated.
But uh, it just speaks to theimportance of just going out and
playing and having fun andgetting touches on the ball.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, just enjoying it.
Falling in love with the game,I think, is the most important
part.
I love that.
Starting them young to fall inlove with the game that they
follow through is, I think,where we're lacking, because we
don't start kids or we'reputting too much pressure on the
kid when they're young insteadof letting them fall in love
with it.
It's you got to win, like nowyou're a three-year-old but you
(13:30):
got to win you know, kind ofthing, and that's where so we're
making them fall out of lovewith it instead of falling in
love with it.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
That's such a great point and that's something that
I've always tried to be veryconscious of, because I am a
former player and I am a coachand can be.
You know, I did grow up in anera where it was a lot of
winning and a lot of pressure,um, so I'm glad that you said
that, because I think I actuallyposted about this a couple of
(14:00):
days ago.
Um, I think too often it'sadults that ruin a game for the
kid.
100%, it's above the game forthe kid.
You know, it's not that theyfell from the side, yeah, yeah,
parents or even coaches thatthat are focused on the wrong
things, or referees or whateverit is, um, but so often it's
(14:21):
it's adults in that kid's lifethat ruin it.
And it's any sport, it's notjust soccer, yeah, but if you
allow them to find the thingsthat they love and support them
and fantastic, obviously, soccer, you know, whatever it is,
piano Great.
How can I support you?
Exactly, right, I'll take itaway.
Piano Great, how can I supportyou?
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Exactly Right.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I'll take it away from you, so talk a little bit
about how did Her Game 2, kindof as an initiative movement
program, start from thebeginning there?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
So in the UK, I think it was six or seven of them.
They got together and theyrealized the sexism over there.
For them, like just to go to agame, because they're getting
told get back in the kitchen,you don't belong here, you know
nothing.
And all the other comments evenworse than that.
(15:16):
So a girl named Kaz May may,she, chatting with her other
friends, realized this is aproblem not just at her team but
all of the teams.
And, uh, so she got togetherand decided let's do a video and
release this video, um, and seewhat happens, kind of thing,
and and see what happens, kindof thing.
(15:38):
And so I created the video.
They posted it the day of theFA Cup game because they knew
most people are going to be onTwitter that day because you're
watching the FA Cup.
You're going to be involvedsocial media wise and it just
skyrocketed, I think in an hour.
It was trending, so definitelywas a problem and she had, they
(16:02):
had a social media page and itjust blew up with people
following it left and right andI actually watched it on that
day.
I remember sitting therewatching this video, going, wow,
you know, kind of like itgrabbed your attention.
These are people who, if youlook at their other social media
, they're bubbly, happy peopleand they look so serious it
(16:22):
makes it stand out.
Um, so it.
That's where it started.
And uh, and then I like I saidI saw it.
It was like we need that herein the states in a different way
, because we don't.
I've been to so many soccermatches because I used to be a
season ticket holder for thechicago fire, so I've been to
(16:44):
multiple games.
I don't hear that stuff.
Like I'm good with going.
The comments I would hear isyou actually know the game?
Like in a surprising tone, likeyou don't say that to a guy
when they say something, so why?
So it's a different aspect.
And then also going to the pubthat's where I was having my
issues.
Going to watch a game at a baror a pub.
(17:07):
That's when the sexism wouldcome in and not go back to the
kitchen, but the touching orpretending to brush by kind of
thing.
And that's where I was like,well, I need to talk to Cass and
figure out how to bring thathere.
How do I do that?
Like, what did you do therethat I can replicate here?
(17:29):
And so that's how it came tothe States.
I met with her, obviously notphysically, but we faced time
with each other and it was likean hour and a half conversation
of just going over everythingand she was surprised it
actually happened here at thestates.
She really thought, because ofus having the women's soccer and
(17:50):
they're blowing up and how goodthey are, that everybody
followed women and lovedwatching the women play.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
It's interesting to see what people's perceptions
are outside of the country orthe market right.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And I was like, whoa, okay, if you're over here you
know differently, but it wasneat, like you said, it was
great to hear that side of it.
And then we started working onokay.
So she's like, all right, right, you want to bring in the
states, I give you fullauthority to do it.
So then the pressure was on meto like make it happen.
(18:26):
So we redid the video withamericans.
So, because we didn't want tojust redo her video and repost
it, right, um.
So she's like can you find abunch of American girls who have
had issues and do the samevideo?
So we did.
I reached out to a bunch ofpeople trying to get videos and
(18:48):
that's kind of where it kickedoff from.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
So how long after the UK group kind of did their
video and launch, if you will,to, when you reached out to Kaz
and started that?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
they launched.
I was probably five months, sixmonths before I, because it was
more of a, it was a partly me,because I wanted to ask him
right away.
Then I'm like so maybe maybeit's not a problem here, maybe
it's just me like um.
So I started talking to myfriends and kind of in my circle
(19:21):
of people and going do yousuffer anything?
Do you have a problem?
What would you think?
And I was even asking, becauseI am a part of a club up in near
Chicago and I was asking thepeople there what do you think
if I brought this campaign here?
What do you do?
Because I'm not much of aleader per se, so this was a
(19:42):
huge leap for me.
So it was like, okay, what do Ido here?
And everyone was like you needto do it, do it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
So it took me five months and that's when I reached
out to Kaz.
Leadership often finds peoplewho aren't looking for it.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
That's it.
It's cool.
And then.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Jen didn't find me.
I reached out to Kaz about.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That was going to be my next question.
I love this.
How did you two meet?
Okay, Chicago, Arkansas.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
They got it together in 2021 in the UK and then, like
Jen said, she was five to sixmonths in, so it was getting
towards the end of the year andI had been following and reached
out to Kaz hey, can we getstarted?
Can we get something startedlike this over here?
And she's like funny.
You should say that I'm goingto put you in touch with Jen
(20:33):
Ramsey.
She's already asked the samething, and so by the time I got
in contact with Jen, she was inthe video planning stage, and so
there were six or seven.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
There were six girls, six girls and then ended up
being seven yeah, so it.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
It evolved pretty naturally into the lead team
yeah um, but we're stretched outpretty far across the states.
Our other director is in um,california and san diego.
Okay, shout out to amy kate,yeah, um, and so, yeah.
So that was it just organicallyformed here.
And, like Jen said, the contextof what we see here is, you
(21:16):
know, really different incomparison to what we're seeing
in the UK.
We deal with different things.
So we're dealing with femalereferee abuse.
This is a new thing that we'vebeen dealing with here.
The younger girls come in tospeak.
They don't know that there isan avenue of reporting not to
(21:37):
the state associations, not totheir referee assigners.
They don't realise there's anavenue, and so we've looked at a
lot of different things thanthe UK.
Theirs came in the first year.
They spent very much focused onsexism in the stands.
Theirs came in the first year.
They spent very much focused onsexism in the stands.
So female fans, but they'vegrown into so much more than
that as well, with just thegeneral equality topic of
(22:03):
grassroots getting young girlsinvolved in the game, role
models, everything from staff,referees, female coaches,
players.
It's exponentially grown in theUK and we're finding that it's
been a tougher job launchinghere because we're five times
(22:24):
the population.
The country is so huge, there'sthree directors across the
country.
The population, the country isso huge, there's three directors
across the country.
Um, we're trying to focusprimarily this year on like our
areas to grow out, but it'staken us a lot longer.
So they have seen in the ukmassive success very quickly um
72 out of, or 74 out of 92professional clubs partnered and
(22:48):
ready.
We have 10 currently, but theyare again going back to the
contrast of it.
There are way more female fansready to step up and be an
ambassador for their club, andthat is an area that we're
having trouble with here.
We would like to have a clubambassador and then the club
(23:10):
come on board.
Gotcha, and it's thecommunication here.
We're such a large country,we're so spread out, um trying
to connect with, you know, morefemale fans from teams that are
hours and hours away.
It's a job, and so it may lookon the surface that it's very
slow moving and it is for us,but there is a lot of cogs and
(23:31):
wheels going on in thebackground well, it's also not a
small uh initiative or topic.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
No challenge that you've taken on no so I I don't
mean to laugh about it becauseit's very serious and very
important work, but, um, in thespirit of the conversation,
adjust in in terms of your, yourperceived slow pace, but I, I
can especially even me workingon this project and perception
(23:58):
of what's going on.
Guys.
There's so much that goes onbehind the scenes and so I give
you guys a lot of credit andit's all voluntary.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
so all of us work full-time jobs, even hard, to
get into the podcast.
So yeah, it's just everyone.
The UK is completelyvoluntary-led.
The US team is alsovoluntary-led.
We're a 501c3 now.
So you know, working on gettingfunding in the background takes
(24:27):
time.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Takes time, well, absolutely Takes time.
Well, it's important work and Ireally appreciate you guys
taking up the mantle for it.
You know, and as again a fatherof daughters, and that I want
to have every opportunity toplay and that my son does and
have the same experience, youknow, along the, and hopefully a
(24:50):
positive one, right.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So I thank you guys so much for the work that you're
doing.
I think we'll leave it therefor the first part of our combo,
but I'm going to have you guysback, and so thank you again.
Natasha and Jen, her Game 2,you can find them at
hergame2.com and on all thesocials hergame2.us.
(25:16):
Love that.
Thank you very much, jen andNatasha, again, for joining me.
We'll see you next time.
That's it for this episode ofPitch the Pro.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Be sure to catch all of ourepisodes on pitchtheprocom or
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For more content Until nexttime.
Northwest Arkansas cheers.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of the Pitch the Pro
(25:37):
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This is a journey we want tobring you along for the ride.
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(00:25):
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Together, we'll explore andunpack our journey to
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talk all things soccer from onthe pitch to behind the scenes,
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(01:07):
Hello everybody and welcomeback to the Pitch the Pro
podcast.
I'm your host, wes Harris,managing Director for Ozark
United FC, northwest Arkansas'professional soccer club,
playing in the United SoccerLeague.
I'm really excited about ourepisode today.
I'm joined by Ms Natasha Brandand Ms Jen Ramczyk, co-founders
of Her Game 2 USA.
We'll talk about that in asecond, but it's an initiative
(01:30):
focused on the advancement ofwomen in soccer.
To sum it up, there's a wholelot more underneath that which
we will get to, but, ladies,thank you so much for joining me
today.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
You're welcome.
How about us?
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Absolutely so.
Before we jump into her gametoo, I always start with this
and always love to hear people'sstories about how did you guys
find the game, how did you getinvolved in the game, what's
your backgrounds, where are youfrom, and just your, your
background and how you found thegame.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, kind of.
It's kind of strange for mebecause none of my family are
really football supporters inEngland, so it was hard, but I
guess everybody at school had ateam.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And so my local team is Norwich City.
And then that wasn't goodenough for my friends, so we all
had to have a Premier Leagueteam, so it was Manchester
United as well.
Now we're really getting intoit, I know, um, so now we're
really fighting.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You guys just have the right partnership here with
Liverpool and man U.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I mean you just get the banter going all day not so
much man U when Alex Fergusonleft, but die hard.
Lifelong Norwich supporterstill um and just.
There weren't really anyoptions for playing as a kid in
england for girls, so streetball yeah pick up games um
hanging out, watching the boysplay, going to local games in
(02:56):
town.
We live in setford so we hadsetford town okay um amateur
league football, so there wasn'treally too much incentive to
get in it because none of myfamily liked it.
So mum and dad never took me towatch a game.
It just grew through highschool I guess.
I wasn't allowed on the trainto go to Norwich because I went
(03:21):
to school in the 80s and we knowhow hooliganism was yeah, for
anybody that wants to understandwhat Natasha's talking about,
just go watch the movie GreenStreet Hooligans, you'll
understand.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
You will understand fantastic film.
You should watch it anyway.
But well, that's so interesting.
And and remind people why was,why were there no opportunities
and this is part of getting intoher game too and the initiative
.
But remind people why therethere no opportunities and this
is part of getting into her gametoo and the initiative.
But remind people why therewere no opportunities to play
for girls in England at thattime.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I mean, it was just the men's game and many of the
professional teams at that pointhad just started having women
play.
So another thing in England iswe didn't have soccer in school.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So that's the primary thing, that they were split
between girls and boys sportsVery much so.
So it was never, ever anopportunity for those of us
growing up in small town England.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
And up until very recently even, I mean as far as
history goes right.
So, and obviously, things thatyou know are part of what you
guys and the initiative aretrying to change, right.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, it wasn't for girls.
Yeah, according to boys.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, I have, as a dad of daughters and with a
sister and all of that.
It's absolutely for girls.
It's absolutely for girls.
That's one of the things Iactually love about soccer is it
is the world's game, it is foreveryone, full stop period,
regardless of where you comefrom, and all of that.
(04:55):
So that's actually one of myfavorite things about the sport
and why I love it so much.
But that's awesome.
I I will always support norwich, unless they're playing
liverpool, because, um, Iactually followed them a little
bit because of josh sergeantexactly um we have our token
american.
(05:15):
Yeah, that's right, he's greatand he's really found a home
there?
I think he really has, andthey've adopted him quite well
as yet, right yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
We're winning.
Now he's back from injury.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
A few more goals up front.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
There's a few more.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah Well, Jen, tell me a little bit about you.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
So I got into following soccer and the sport
in high school, went to all theboys' games, which is in the
fall, and I have a twin sisterso we go together and, uh, we
got to know the coach and he hadus hop on the bus and we got to
go to the away games.
So we were in part of likemanager of the boys team and
(05:57):
then when it came time for thegirls tryouts, which is in the
spring, we tried out, both of usand we both made the team.
But I I was only one year, uh,that I played, and my career was
very short because of an injury.
I got a girl stepped on me as Iwas turning so it twisted my
ankle and that was done.
Um, but I was a winger so I ranthe whole length of the pitch,
(06:20):
so ankles were quite important,um, so then it kind of became
just sit back and watch andenjoy the game and really learn
the technical side of things andwhat they're seeing.
So my dad laughs because I'lleven say no, you need to pass to
the right, and he sometimesgets frustrated and other times
he's like how did you know that?
(06:40):
But so I wish I could haveplayed longer, but it kind of
makes you, when you're forcedoffline, to do something
differently.
And then I started followingthe Premier League back in 1996.
So it's been quite some years,and it was Liverpool from then
on.
So I've been a Liverpoolsupporter ever since and I now
(07:03):
voyage to my homeland every year, and that's been the last five
years.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I love that.
That's actually the year that Ibecame a Liverpool supporter as
well, so I love that.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Just right after the big Champions League comeback,
which was 2005.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
That's right, that's right this conversation is going
downhill 96 for me.
Um, uk elite is a, a campprogram that traveled up and
down the eastern seaboard and,um, if you housed, they
obviously had overhead.
If they brought over you know,coaches from the uk to come and
(07:44):
a lot of them were either formeracademy players or academy
coaches or whatever and if youprovided housing for them and,
you know, fed them and took careof them for the week, then they
let your kids go for free.
So they're pretty middle class.
And my parents were like, yeah,we'll take two, we have two
boys that are old enough.
(08:04):
We have have two.
We have two boys, uh, that areold enough.
We have two younger ones, buttwo boys that are old enough to
go.
Yeah, so the first time I didthat, I was eight and, uh, one
of the coaches was fromliverpool and played in their
academy and coached in theiracademy, and this was at the
very start of, like youtube andinternet videos and he, uh, he
(08:25):
showed me a bunch of clips of,uh, steven Gerrard and just
Liverpool and the greats.
And um, it spent just a ton oftime training with us, you know,
and having fun just kickingabout in the in the yard after,
after training and beforetraining and stuff after the
camps, and so from then on I'vebeen a Liverpool fan obsessed
and, uh, I still keep in touchwith him, so it's pretty fun.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
CBG and Peter Kraus for the reason I became a
Liverpool fan which is odd tosay, peter Kraus because he
played for Liverpool back thenand I really liked when he was
playing for England during theWorld Cup and started tracing
back and he played for Liverpooland so did Steamy and I did my
homework.
What does Liverpool stand for?
What kind of team are they?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
and I just yeah, no, that's, that's such a good story
.
Uh, you actually uh wouldappreciate.
Our one of our co-founders,warren Smith, also had a very
short uh career in playing uhsoccer.
He, he, he uh had one game, oneminute, and he and he broke his
leg uh and and uh ended, endedhis uh soccer career.
(09:30):
So he always jokes that he hadthe shortest soccer career.
So he was, he was pretty doneafter that.
But I mean so you guys foundthe game, you know, maybe a
little bit later than some, butI mean some of the most ardent
supporters of the game and whatit does.
So what do you love about?
(09:52):
What is it that you love aboutsoccer?
What drew you to it?
Um, as fans, especially youhaving not played natasha uh as
a younger, you know yeah, wejust played on the street.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
So from as young as I can remember, playing out
growing up was with a football,so it was always there.
Even if your parents didn'tsupport it was just part of
culture.
Everybody played street ball.
It was, yeah, it was justnormal growing up.
So it's been as long as I canremember.
(10:24):
And then starting to follow onTV.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And it happened after .
So I didn't support Norwichuntil maybe middle school, high
school, but playing was always.
I can't remember a time thatthere wasn't that me and my
friends didn't play ball.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Just outside.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Yeah, we would just throw hoodies down on the green
and outside our houses, thegoalposts, and just play.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That's the magic of it and I love it and I wish we
need more of that in the US, inthat culture, and it's getting
there there, but still a longway to go yet we're very lucky
here in fentonville balavistabecause coach scott at sporting
um we've had a lot of successwith pickup games and, yeah, the
(11:14):
pickup, the pickup games, whichare open to everybody, is such
a huge part.
I mean, there was actually aninteresting interview, um, or a
coach's session or something,I'm not sure, but it was
actually from the liverpoolacademy and they talked about
the success of you know, theyreally wanted to understand the
you know, what is the differencebetween the players that make
(11:37):
it out of the academy and intothe first team or on to another
first team elsewhere?
Uh, between them and theplayers that make it out of the
Academy and into the first teamor onto another first team
elsewhere?
Uh, between them and the onesthat don't Right, because even
once you're in the Academy,you're part of the elite, but
then there's a lot, there's moreof them that don't make it
right.
Yeah, then do.
And so they were like well, wereally want to understand this
so we can replicate it.
And they studied them.
(11:57):
They studied what they ate,what they slept, what they read,
like, you know, for years andTrent was a part of this, you
know, and you know others andthey actually found one common
thread between all of them, andit wasn't, you know, drive, or
(12:17):
determination, or mental healthor you know whatever, right
footed or anything like that.
It was number of minutes playedpickup in their youth.
Oh, that was the difference,and the players that had played
the most pickup growing upactually were the ones.
(12:39):
More often than not, that werethe ones that that was.
What they had in common was howmuch they played pickup, which
is so anathema to the US model.
That's a whole other podcastepisode.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And makes you frustrated.
But uh, it just speaks to theimportance of just going out and
playing and having fun andgetting touches on the ball.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, just enjoying it.
Falling in love with the game,I think, is the most important
part.
I love that.
Starting them young to fall inlove with the game that they
follow through is, I think,where we're lacking, because we
don't start kids or we'reputting too much pressure on the
kid when they're young insteadof letting them fall in love
with it.
It's you got to win, like nowyou're a three-year-old but you
(13:30):
got to win you know, kind ofthing, and that's where so we're
making them fall out of lovewith it instead of falling in
love with it.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
That's such a great point and that's something that
I've always tried to be veryconscious of, because I am a
former player and I am a coachand can be.
You know, I did grow up in anera where it was a lot of
winning and a lot of pressure,um, so I'm glad that you said
that, because I think I actuallyposted about this a couple of
(14:00):
days ago.
Um, I think too often it'sadults that ruin a game for the
kid.
100%, it's above the game forthe kid.
You know, it's not that theyfell from the side, yeah, yeah,
parents or even coaches thatthat are focused on the wrong
things, or referees or whateverit is, um, but so often it's
(14:21):
it's adults in that kid's lifethat ruin it.
And it's any sport, it's notjust soccer, yeah, but if you
allow them to find the thingsthat they love and support them
and fantastic, obviously, soccer, you know, whatever it is,
piano Great.
How can I support you?
Exactly, right, I'll take itaway.
Piano Great, how can I supportyou?
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Exactly Right.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I'll take it away from you, so talk a little bit
about how did Her Game 2, kindof as an initiative movement
program, start from thebeginning there?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
So in the UK, I think it was six or seven of them.
They got together and theyrealized the sexism over there.
For them, like just to go to agame, because they're getting
told get back in the kitchen,you don't belong here, you know
nothing.
And all the other comments evenworse than that.
(15:16):
So a girl named Kaz May may,she, chatting with her other
friends, realized this is aproblem not just at her team but
all of the teams.
And, uh, so she got togetherand decided let's do a video and
release this video, um, and seewhat happens, kind of thing,
and and see what happens, kindof thing.
(15:38):
And so I created the video.
They posted it the day of theFA Cup game because they knew
most people are going to be onTwitter that day because you're
watching the FA Cup.
You're going to be involvedsocial media wise and it just
skyrocketed, I think in an hour.
It was trending, so definitelywas a problem and she had, they
(16:02):
had a social media page and itjust blew up with people
following it left and right andI actually watched it on that
day.
I remember sitting therewatching this video, going, wow,
you know, kind of like itgrabbed your attention.
These are people who, if youlook at their other social media
, they're bubbly, happy peopleand they look so serious it
(16:22):
makes it stand out.
Um, so it.
That's where it started.
And uh, and then I like I saidI saw it.
It was like we need that herein the states in a different way
, because we don't.
I've been to so many soccermatches because I used to be a
season ticket holder for thechicago fire, so I've been to
(16:44):
multiple games.
I don't hear that stuff.
Like I'm good with going.
The comments I would hear isyou actually know the game?
Like in a surprising tone, likeyou don't say that to a guy
when they say something, so why?
So it's a different aspect.
And then also going to the pubthat's where I was having my
issues.
Going to watch a game at a baror a pub.
(17:07):
That's when the sexism wouldcome in and not go back to the
kitchen, but the touching orpretending to brush by kind of
thing.
And that's where I was like,well, I need to talk to Cass and
figure out how to bring thathere.
How do I do that?
Like, what did you do therethat I can replicate here?
(17:29):
And so that's how it came tothe States.
I met with her, obviously notphysically, but we faced time
with each other and it was likean hour and a half conversation
of just going over everythingand she was surprised it
actually happened here at thestates.
She really thought, because ofus having the women's soccer and
(17:50):
they're blowing up and how goodthey are, that everybody
followed women and lovedwatching the women play.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
It's interesting to see what people's perceptions
are outside of the country orthe market right.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And I was like, whoa, okay, if you're over here you
know differently, but it wasneat, like you said, it was
great to hear that side of it.
And then we started working onokay.
So she's like, all right, right, you want to bring in the
states, I give you fullauthority to do it.
So then the pressure was on meto like make it happen.
(18:26):
So we redid the video withamericans.
So, because we didn't want tojust redo her video and repost
it, right, um.
So she's like can you find abunch of American girls who have
had issues and do the samevideo?
So we did.
I reached out to a bunch ofpeople trying to get videos and
(18:48):
that's kind of where it kickedoff from.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
So how long after the UK group kind of did their
video and launch, if you will,to, when you reached out to Kaz
and started that?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
they launched.
I was probably five months, sixmonths before I, because it was
more of a, it was a partly me,because I wanted to ask him
right away.
Then I'm like so maybe maybeit's not a problem here, maybe
it's just me like um.
So I started talking to myfriends and kind of in my circle
(19:21):
of people and going do yousuffer anything?
Do you have a problem?
What would you think?
And I was even asking, becauseI am a part of a club up in near
Chicago and I was asking thepeople there what do you think
if I brought this campaign here?
What do you do?
Because I'm not much of aleader per se, so this was a
(19:42):
huge leap for me.
So it was like, okay, what do Ido here?
And everyone was like you needto do it, do it.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
So it took me five months and that's when I reached
out to Kaz.
Leadership often finds peoplewho aren't looking for it.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
That's it.
It's cool.
And then.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Jen didn't find me.
I reached out to Kaz about.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That was going to be my next question.
I love this.
How did you two meet?
Okay, Chicago, Arkansas.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
They got it together in 2021 in the UK and then, like
Jen said, she was five to sixmonths in, so it was getting
towards the end of the year andI had been following and reached
out to Kaz hey, can we getstarted?
Can we get something startedlike this over here?
And she's like funny.
You should say that I'm goingto put you in touch with Jen
(20:33):
Ramsey.
She's already asked the samething, and so by the time I got
in contact with Jen, she was inthe video planning stage, and so
there were six or seven.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
There were six girls, six girls and then ended up
being seven yeah, so it.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
It evolved pretty naturally into the lead team
yeah um, but we're stretched outpretty far across the states.
Our other director is in um,california and san diego.
Okay, shout out to amy kate,yeah, um, and so, yeah.
So that was it just organicallyformed here.
And, like Jen said, the contextof what we see here is, you
(21:16):
know, really different incomparison to what we're seeing
in the UK.
We deal with different things.
So we're dealing with femalereferee abuse.
This is a new thing that we'vebeen dealing with here.
The younger girls come in tospeak.
They don't know that there isan avenue of reporting not to
(21:37):
the state associations, not totheir referee assigners.
They don't realise there's anavenue, and so we've looked at a
lot of different things thanthe UK.
Theirs came in the first year.
They spent very much focused onsexism in the stands.
Theirs came in the first year.
They spent very much focused onsexism in the stands.
So female fans, but they'vegrown into so much more than
that as well, with just thegeneral equality topic of
(22:03):
grassroots getting young girlsinvolved in the game, role
models, everything from staff,referees, female coaches,
players.
It's exponentially grown in theUK and we're finding that it's
been a tougher job launchinghere because we're five times
(22:24):
the population.
The country is so huge, there'sthree directors across the
country.
The population, the country isso huge, there's three directors
across the country.
Um, we're trying to focusprimarily this year on like our
areas to grow out, but it'staken us a lot longer.
So they have seen in the ukmassive success very quickly um
72 out of, or 74 out of 92professional clubs partnered and
(22:48):
ready.
We have 10 currently, but theyare again going back to the
contrast of it.
There are way more female fansready to step up and be an
ambassador for their club, andthat is an area that we're
having trouble with here.
We would like to have a clubambassador and then the club
(23:10):
come on board.
Gotcha, and it's thecommunication here.
We're such a large country,we're so spread out, um trying
to connect with, you know, morefemale fans from teams that are
hours and hours away.
It's a job, and so it may lookon the surface that it's very
slow moving and it is for us,but there is a lot of cogs and
(23:31):
wheels going on in thebackground well, it's also not a
small uh initiative or topic.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
No challenge that you've taken on no so I I don't
mean to laugh about it becauseit's very serious and very
important work, but, um, in thespirit of the conversation,
adjust in in terms of your, yourperceived slow pace, but I, I
can especially even me workingon this project and perception
(23:58):
of what's going on.
Guys.
There's so much that goes onbehind the scenes and so I give
you guys a lot of credit andit's all voluntary.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
so all of us work full-time jobs, even hard, to
get into the podcast.
So yeah, it's just everyone.
The UK is completelyvoluntary-led.
The US team is alsovoluntary-led.
We're a 501c3 now.
So you know, working on gettingfunding in the background takes
(24:27):
time.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Takes time, well, absolutely Takes time.
Well, it's important work and Ireally appreciate you guys
taking up the mantle for it.
You know, and as again a fatherof daughters, and that I want
to have every opportunity toplay and that my son does and
have the same experience, youknow, along the, and hopefully a
(24:50):
positive one, right.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So I thank you guys so much for the work that you're
doing.
I think we'll leave it therefor the first part of our combo,
but I'm going to have you guysback, and so thank you again.
Natasha and Jen, her Game 2,you can find them at
hergame2.com and on all thesocials hergame2.us.
(25:16):
Love that.
Thank you very much, jen andNatasha, again, for joining me.
We'll see you next time.
That's it for this episode ofPitch the Pro.
We hope you enjoyed it.
Be sure to catch all of ourepisodes on pitchtheprocom or
look for Pitch the Pro onYouTube, spotify, apple or
wherever you get your podcasts.
For more content Until nexttime.
Northwest Arkansas cheers.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of the Pitch the Pro
(25:37):
podcast.
Be sure to tune in again in twoweeks for the next installment
and check out the Stoppage Timeseries for a recap of today's
episode.
Be sure to find us at Pitch thePro on YouTube, instagram and
everywhere you get.
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