December 29, 2023 • 44 mins
Discover how DNA testing is revolutionizing cannabis and empowering patients with truly personalized wellness. Join EndoDNA’s CEO., Len May, to unlock the secrets in your DNA and find the cannabis that’s perfect for you. The future of health has arrived.
Are you ready to make therapeutic cannabis personal?
If you’re still guessing which cannabis products might work for you, you could be missing out on the therapeutic benefits or even experiencing adverse side effects.
Stop the guesswork. In this episode, you’ll discover how DNA testing and precision medicine are empowering people to use cannabis safely and effectively.
BY THE TIME YOU FINISH LISTENING, YOU’LL LEARN:
- How DNA testing provides customized cannabis recommendations, insights into your risk factors for side effects and customized cannabis recommendations based on your genetics.
- Why a one-size-fits-all approach to cannabis doesn’t work and how to find the right products and doses for you.
- Cutting-edge research into the genetics behind conditions like cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome.
LET'S KEEP THE CONVERSATION GOING
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Tamar (00:00):
Are you frustrated with the one size fits all
approach to health and wellness?
Do you wish there were morepersonalized solutions based on
your unique genetics and biology?
If so, you're in the rightplace.
My guest today is Mr Len May,founder and CEO of EndoDNA, a
company using advanced DNAtesting and AI to provide
(00:21):
customized cannabis and wellnessrecommendations for medicinal
use.
Mr May shares how understandingyour genetic predispositions
can help determine the rightcannabis and supplement
protocols for your needs.
That's right.
The answer is in your DNA, sotune in to get the details.
Welcome to Pivoting Pharmacywith Nutrigenomics.
(00:43):
Part of the Pharmacy PodcastNetwork, a must-have resource
for pharmacist entrepreneursseeking to enhance patient care
while enjoying career and life.
Join us as we pivot intoNutrigenomics, using pharmacy
and nutrition for truepatient-focused care.
Explore how to improve chronicconditions rather than just
(01:06):
manage them.
Celebrate entrepreneurialtriumphs and receive priceless
advice.
Align your values with a careerthat profoundly impacts
patients.
Together, we'll raise thescript on health and pivot into
a brighter future.
Before you listen in, I want tothank our listener of the week,
allsportsmom21, who says it'srefreshing to hear another
(01:28):
perspective to help in patientsand educate in patients to learn
about how to heal themselvesand get healthy.
Thank you, allsportsmom.
It's refreshing to me that youfound our podcast refreshing and
helpful.
The essence of pivotingpharmacy with Nutrigenomics is
to guide listeners like you andshake it off the traditional
shackles of pharmacy practice,moving towards a holistic,
(01:50):
patient-focused approach.
We believe in sharpening thetools of self-education and
self-healing, not just for us ashealthcare professionals, but
for our patients too.
So please continue to join uson our collective exploration
into fresh avenues of patientcare.
So thank you for your reviewand remember, when you leave us
a five-star review, you'll getthe chance to be featured as our
(02:13):
next listener of the week andI'll give you a shout out right
here on the show.
Hello, hello and welcome toepisode 16 of Pivoting Pharmacy
with Nutrigenomics.
I'm Dr Tamar Lawful, doctor ofpharmacy and nutritional
genomics specialist.
You know there are moments inour lives that challenged the
way we see things, that make usquestion the status quo.
(02:35):
Well, this is one of thosemoments.
We're about to challenge somecommonly held beliefs about
cannabis consumption Intriguing,right.
I'm beyond thrilled to diveinto this topic with you All
right, so you've heard the buzzon cannabis restorative
therapeutic effects, a naturalalternative Sounds like the
perfect remedy, right, but howdoes someone find the right
(02:57):
product or dose.
The truth is theone-size-fits-all approach,
isn't it?
What if I told you you canpersonalize the medicinal
cannabis journey much like yourfavorite cup of coffee Stirring,
isn't it?
On this groundbreaking episode,we're debunking the myths and
taking personalize to a wholenew level.
(03:19):
Ever heard of DNA testing forcannabis?
It's like 23 and me, but foryour cannabis needs.
So let's see what this is allabout in today's episode with Mr
May, ceo and co-founder ofEndocana Health Incorporated,
who joins us with a rich 25-yearhistory in cannabis and
genomics.
He has paved a luminous trailin patient-centered care.
(03:40):
As a certified medical cannabisspecialist in medicinal
genomics and holding a master'sof medical cannabis, mr May has
an in-depth knowledge ofgenomics, cannabinoids and
terpenes and their interactionwith the endocannabinoid system
as well.
He is a thought leader inmedicinal genomics and affirms
(04:02):
the power of personalizedhealthcare.
This enlightening conversationcould be the catalyst you need
to redefine your role inpharmacy.
So let's dive right into theunder-bridge world of
nutrigenomics and cannabis.
This is sure to ignite yourentrepreneurial journey.
Let's listen in.
Welcome, mr May.
Thank you for joining us on thePivoting Pharmacy with
(04:23):
Nutrigenomics podcast.
Now can you give our listenersa little bit?
Tell us about you.
Mr. May (04:29):
Well about me.
Well, how long do we have?
I was actually born in acountry called Lithuania and
immigrated when I was about sixyears old, grew up in
Philadelphia and moved to LosAngeles about 16 years ago.
But I was the kind of kid thatwould sit in class and I get all
(04:50):
these different thoughts likeWindows and your computer will
be open my head, sort ofdaydreaming, and a teacher will
call on you and be like what?
Now Back to present.
So I got diagnosed with ADD andI was put on all kinds of
prescription medication and Ican't say it didn't work
whatever the definition of workis, but they all kind of numb me
(05:13):
.
So it took away any feeling ofself.
And I was hanging out with somekids, just I guess in the
beginning of high school, maybethe end of my eighth grade,
ninth grade somewhere aroundthere, and they asked me to
smoke a cigarette with them.
I'm like cool, hanging out withthe cool kids, we'll smoke a
cigarette and I never questionedwhy they only have one
(05:35):
cigarette.
So they ended up passing thecigarette to me.
I took a drag of that cigaretteand kind of taste weird.
I took another drag and kind ofcoughed a little bit and
they're all laughing at me.
So they have cannabis insidethe cigarette and when I went to
class the windows in my headsort of narrowed.
(05:55):
They disappeared.
I could focus.
Okay, this is odd.
So then every single time theywere consuming cannabis.
After that it did the samething.
I never mentioned anybody thatwe would consume chronicler
recreationally or whatever earand ears and would get older.
My parents didn't care for thatthat much, so they would get
(06:15):
upset with me and at the end ofthe day, at the end of high
school, they end up kicking meout, actually calling the cops,
I mean trying to have mearrested.
The irony of the story is thatthey consume formulations that
my company produces now, and allof these are genetics tests.
So I can't kind of full circle.
But that started my trajectoryinto really understanding the
(06:35):
plan and how it affects yourbody and what your end of
cannabinoid system is.
So I became an activist.
I was the president of thecannabis action network
legalization back in the mid 90s, and then my ex-wife, who was
my girlfriend at the time, saidI have to get a real job.
So I went to work for PriceWaterhouse.
I was going to physical therapyschool.
(06:57):
That was my sort of background,thank you.
Then I was a consultant for aventure capital company.
Then I was a commercial realestate broker for a while, moved
to Los Angeles, was still sortof down in real estate and then
these guys came in and wanted toopen an alternative pharmacy.
Like that's interesting, whatdo you really want to do?
And it was dispensary, so Ihelped them and they offered me
(07:19):
a partnership and I ended upbeing a partner in five
different dispensaries under thesame brand.
But my passion has still beenthe therapeutic properties of
the plant.
So I was always trying tofigure out why two people
consumed the same chemicalvariety and have a completely
different experience.
So I really started focusing onplant genomics.
I found a video by a gentlemannamed Kevin McCartan, who was
(07:40):
the first person in the geneticsequence cannabis, and reached
out to him and learned a lotabout plant genetics, and their
parent company was apharmacogenomics company and I
still got really involved in thehuman genetics.
So anyway, that's mylong-winded story about my
background and I can dive intoany more specifics.
Dr. Tamar (08:01):
I like it.
So, from your accidentalexperience with cannabis and how
it impacted your ADED to nowmaking it a company where we're
focusing on being more specific,you're focusing on genetics and
a different strains that wouldbe more beneficial for people
based on their genetics.
From looking at your background, you've mastered the workings
(08:24):
of the endocannaboid system andthe interplay with genomics.
So how might this knowledgeactually empower pharmacists who
want to redefine their role anddeliver a more personalized
approach to health?
Mr. May (08:37):
Well, I just believe that everything is a
personalized approach to healthand wellness.
So we've been sort of doingthis cookie cutter approach for
way too long.
Take two of these and call mewell, why should I take two of
these?
Why should I take four, or whyshould I take one?
Maybe I'm an ultra rapidmetabolizer, maybe I'm a poor
metabolizer.
So the way that we sort of lookat this is the way that we met
(09:00):
with the FDA and they asked uswhat is the purpose of your test
?
And we told them to help peopleeither mitigate or avoid a
possible adverse event.
It's wonderful.
So that's the goal and what wedo is focused on that.
First, it's to be able to helppeople, guide people to an
experience that is going to besafe First, efficacious is.
(09:21):
Second, we want to make surethat people consume things that
are not going to trigger apossible adverse event.
So when I look at this, wegenotype somewhere around
700,000 genetic biomarkers andwhat we look at is everything is
directly or indirectlyassociated with the
endocannaboid system andunderstanding how the
endocannaboid system worksbecause it touches every other
(09:43):
system in our bodies and weunderstand how our endogenous
endocannabids, what are theneurochemicals that we produce
ourselves and how does thataffect an individual in
different types of activities ordifferent types of work they do
or stress things of that nature.
So people that consumephyto-cannabinoids that actually
(10:04):
can bridge those gaps, they maybe naturally deficient in
themselves.
Well, if they consume somethingthat is not really aligned with
them, they can actually triggerthe adverse effect prone to
stress reactivity and has apredisposition for that.
And they consume higher THC,which has a very narrow
therapeutic window.
With certain terpene profiles,which are essential oils in the
(10:27):
plant, they can actually triggerthe predisposition and
epigenetically express thatstress reactivity, instead of
the opposite of what they reallywanted to do.
So our goal is to be able toguide people and pharmacists are
very comfortable withpharmacogenomics Right, so
you're looking at how things tointeract.
(10:48):
So think about this as anothersupplement they can take a look
at and see how it would interactin order for people to avoid
those adverse events.
And the kicker is now that wesort of have a secret sauce like
this is the area that I shouldbe in.
These are cannabinoid terpenesare more aligned with me.
Now this is how I should bedosing, based on my metabolic
(11:10):
function, and we're looking atspecific cytokine.
P450 markers are associatedwith cannabis, and now we can
actually start matching people,the products, based on the
certificate of analysis and testresults of products, and then
seeing how closely thoseproducts match their suggest
ratios.
And, the best part about it,there's a feedback loop so we
actually have people reportoutcome and also integrate
(11:33):
wearable devices so we can startbuilding data.
So the first thing we start issafety, but now we want to make
sure these products areefficacious, and by efficacious
is there is a reduction of blank, whatever it is, or there's an
increase of whatever that is,and we use clinical value, that
assays like the peg three forpain, etc.
To be able to document allthose things, to create what we
(11:56):
consider the world's largestobservational study on efficacy
using these substances as well.
Dr. Tamar (12:02):
Wow, that's amazing.
So Clarify you're looking atthese genomic factors from the
client or patient as well as thephytonomics and matching them.
Mr. May (12:11):
Yes.
So the way that it works is weget DNA data two ways.
Number one is our patentedendo-DNA test.
So the patent is and I'm goingto kind of paraphrase it it's
the use of DNA to makerecommendations associated with
the endocannabinase system,presented through a graphical
user interface.
And the PTO approved our AImachine learning algorithm that
(12:35):
we've been using since 2018 aswell.
So we extended that patent andthe machine learning starts
making predictive inferencesbased on buckets, et cetera.
The more critical mass that wehave, the better hone in on
suggestions that we can make.
So first is our endo-DNA test.
It is HIPAA and GDPR compliant.
(12:55):
You can get it at your doctors,you can get online.
You would swab the inside yourcheek, you'd register that and
you would send that sample toour lab.
It'll take two to four weeks toget your results and then you
would get your results in yourpersonalized portal and I'll
explain sort of what we'relooking at there.
And the second thing is ifsomebody's already taken a DNA
test, like 23Me or Ancestrycomor any other DNA test, you can
(13:19):
take the raw data from that test, upload it to our portal.
We'll translate that andprovide you a report within an
hour that shows you basicallythe same kind of information.
There will be some missingpolymorphisms that they don't
cover, but it'll give you atleast 50% coverage.
And the first thing we look atis every single symptomatic
(13:39):
condition, what people consumecannabis for and where your
genetics play a role, socognitive function, immunohealth
, pain and nausea, sleep mood.
And then we look at thespecific genes, specific genetic
biomarkers, that are associatedwith their symptomatic
conditions.
We look at possiblepredispositions to adverse
effects.
So some people are predisposedto things like psychodomatic
(14:03):
effects, like COSES-like effects, so we actually show everybody
what their predisposition is andhow to sort of navigate those
sharp corners to make sure thatyou don't step in a pothole
that's in the room.
And then, as I said, the nextthing we look at is drug-to-drug
interaction.
So right now we have over 200different medications that we
(14:25):
pull in and we see if any ofthose have a documented
interaction and every singlereport that we have must have a
peer-reviewed reference from anessay that was done PubMed or
equivalent to PubMed.
Talk about drug interactionalso.
The second part is metabolicfunction.
So we look at three specificcytokone P450 pathways where
(14:48):
cannabinoids are, where theenzymatic pathways are, so
CYP2C9 for THC, cyp2c19 for CBDand CYP3A4 for CBD and THC
together.
That's why one of the reasonswhy people have different
experiences when they use awhole plan versus the individual
components as well.
Dr. Tamar (15:10):
Oh, interesting.
I think it's also great thatyou make it usable for everyone.
If they already have their DNAthrough another company, they
can upload it, although theywon't get all the polymorphisms
to be run.
So how do you approach asituation where you find that
someone might be more prone topsychosis with the use of
cannabis?
(15:30):
Then what would you do?
Mr. May (15:32):
So this is for informational purposes only.
The FDA does not approveanything that has to do with the
endocannabinary system.
It's a rescheduling of cannabis.
So provide that information.
If they would like to speak toa health care professional, we
can actually facilitate thatthrough telehealth.
If they would like to have aconversation with their own
health care professional, theycan do so as well.
(15:53):
They can mitigate or maybeavoid hired THC products then
can trigger psychosis in thosepeople.
Hired CBD, as the platform willprobably suggest very low THC,
higher CBD, different terapineprofiles.
But we empower you withinformation to make your own
decisions.
(16:14):
So we don't have a clinicalfiltration of any sort of way.
We don't prescribe and the onlything we do is provide you sort
of your own personalized GPS soyou can make more informed
decisions with your fight ofcannabinoid use.
And then you can take thatinformation and take whatever
actually you think is relevantfor you.
(16:35):
But I would say that based onthousands and thousands of
people that we looked at mostpeople that THC really does have
narrow therapeutic window.
When you take too littlethere's very little efficacy.
When you take too much it doestrigger a lot of those adverse
effects Because you have sort offree radical anandamide, which
(16:56):
is the endogenous version ofwhat we consume THC Delta 9, it
binds your CB1 receptors in ourbrains and our central nervous
system and releases anandamide.
So if you have too muchanandamide, you actually have an
immunoresponse to that whichcan trigger a lot of these
adverse effects.
So we want to make sure thatpeople have really transparent
(17:17):
information.
And, by the way, this is notjust with fight of cannabinoids.
We're actually moving rightdown to whole genome sequencing.
So we're moving to 64 milliongenetic biomarkers.
So looking at personalizedprecision wellness and it's
looking at your entire genome.
Looking at supplements,interactions what are the
supplements and druginteractions what are the things
(17:39):
we have a supplement for?
We have a skin report.
We have a mental health report.
We have a report on women'shealth.
We're working with women'shealth specialists to look at
predispositions to menopause,perimenopause, postmenopause.
What are the symptomsassociated with this person's
individual menopause?
Are they more prone to moodswings?
(18:00):
Are they more prone todifferent things?
And we can actually have thatcommunication, because the idea
is to have a collaborativeexperience with your health care
professional.
Both look at the sameinformation and you can jointly
make better form health caredecisions for the individuals.
That's where our goal is.
Dr. Tamar (18:17):
I love it.
I love it.
Mr May, that is pretty awesome.
We talk about precision Likewhy guess, why guess, when you
have these tools that candefinitely help streamline the
care health care for patientsand clients.
I absolutely love it.
So you've been steerheading thelegislation or been part of
(18:40):
legislation around cannabis.
Can you share what your journeyhas been like with that?
Was there a turning point alongthis process?
Mr. May (18:47):
Well, I brought up that I used to be the president of
the Cannabis Action Network, soa lot of it is in a way.
And I had a rally inIndependence Hall in
Philadelphia.
This was back in 1993.
And Independence Hall is wherethe Liberty Bell was.
Constitution Declaration ofIndependence, by the way,
written in hemp paper.
But my keynote speaker was thislady named Elvie Musica, and
(19:12):
Elvie was one of the at theheight of the program.
There were 16 people, but Ithink there was four left that
were getting legal cannabis fromthe United States government
under this program.
There was cultivated inMississippi with a USDA label on
it.
So think about it this way it'sa Schedule I narcotic, no
medicinal purposes.
(19:33):
The federal government did havea patent for it as a new
protecting, cultivates it in theUniversity of Mississippi for
research purposes and actuallyallowed 16 people to have this
plan.
OK there's some irony there.
I don't know.
It's not for me to decide why,I'm just sharing it with the
audience and everybody can go onGoogle and research it.
(19:54):
So LB was one of those peoplethat would get medically
prescribed cannabis.
So cannabis was cultivated inMississippi central location,
rolled into they looked likecigarettes and metal jar with a
USDA label on it, and she openedthis jar and lit up her
cigarette joint in federalrangers because it depends all
(20:17):
this federal property.
And no, we did anything becauseshe had federally legal
cannabis.
Now that was an exciting moment.
This is 1993.
Pennsylvania didn't legalizeuntil 2020.
I think so it took a very, very, very long time.
Now moved to California.
There was this Prop 215 andSB420, which allowed for the use
(20:41):
of cannabis in this collective.
And when they say collective,basically it was not for profit
entity.
So if you are the cultivator,you're cultivating for me, for
my medical condition, and itcosts you $30 to cultivate it.
Now we have an exchange youprovide me a product, I give you
$30, you didn't make any profit, but I got my medicine and that
(21:03):
was the model until you knowwhen recreational a few years
back.
So as we're talking policy,there's two different types of
policies.
There's the policy for thestates themselves, then there's
the federal policies overarchingand there's a huge disconnect.
Now the hemp bill actuallyhelped to alleviate some of this
(21:25):
, because 0.3% THC productsunder the hemp bill that are
hemp-thrived can be extractedand can be shipped throughout
the country.
So people are getting, you know, those kind of products.
The challenge is that peoplewho have conditions that require
high amounts of THC can't, andthere's still those, you know,
(21:45):
refugees that are going fromstate to state.
That's one thing.
Number two the federalgovernment has been looking at
legalizing cannabis for yearsand lately one of their
conditions is they're looking atrescheduling cannabis.
So when you reschedule cannabisto a schedule three or four,
you will.
It's still a controlledsubstance.
(22:07):
You still need to be able tohave some sort of prescription
or, even if it's OTC, you haveto go to a pharmacy to show your
license and your.
I don't know if dispensariesare going to be the future of
dispensing medicine, with nooffense to bug tenders but
people who are unqualified togive any medical suggestions,
(22:30):
providing people with medicinethat they really need.
Now, georgia is the first statethat actually approved cannabis
to be actually sold through apharmacy, which I believe is a
crystal ball to look in thefuture, because that's something
that I feel you know.
You have qualified pharmacists,you have people who understand
(22:50):
how certain drugs interact and,yes, cannabis is absolutely a
drug how it interacts withindividual individualist bodies.
So to me, I believe thatthere's going to be a shift at
some point with federal policy.
When I met with the FDA about amonth ago in Chicago, we were at
a conference called BenzingaConference.
I was speaking there and some ofthe members of the FDA and they
(23:12):
said one of the toughest thingsthey have right now is to be
able to look at safety of thisproduct because there's so many
derivatives that are coming outDelta 8, delta 10, they're not
sure.
These isomers they're creatingfrom hemp, which is you know,
these loopholes in the law, howsafety are you know?
And that this is the wholeapproach that I feel the federal
(23:36):
government needs to take.
First is to create standards.
Think about this way if I'm inCalifornia and I have a cannabis
product let's say it's aone-to-one with a certain
terapine profile well, if I goto Pennsylvania, I can't get
that same product.
We have completeinconsistencies.
I should be able to get myvitamin, my supplement, the same
(23:58):
way at a vitamin store, nomatter where I go.
The labels should be identical,the testing guidelines should
be identical, and that's wherethe federal government has to
come in and create theseoverarching regulations to make
sure that we have safe andefficacious products in every
one of our states.
Dr. Tamar (24:16):
Right, I agree, it would definitely have to be safe
and efficacious.
But then who makes it?
Is going to be another type ofpharma company that's involved
in this, so that it isstandardized across the nation.
You mean, who actuallymanufactures?
Who manufactures?
Yeah?
Mr. May (24:32):
We have CGMP guidelines right.
So if a pharmacist doesn't haveto manufacture supplements but
supplements actually haveguidelines, that they should
follow throughout.
So there are medical foodproducts.
There is a category ofsupplements that is approved by
the FDA.
There are supplements withspecific labels that are
(24:52):
approved by the FDA.
So I'm saying that if they havelicensed manufacturers that are
making supplements, licensedmanufacturers can also make
phyto-canabinatory products, aslong as they adhere to the
standards, not only GMP, butthere's also standards on
pharmaceutical drugs that shouldbe taken and who manufactures
(25:13):
them should be the people thatare approved to follow those
specific guidelines that have anoversight by the FDA.
Dr. Tamar (25:20):
That's my view, 100%, 100%.
I love it From standing inIndependence Hall.
In 93, I went to college inPhiladelphia.
I grew up on the East Coast aswell, so very familiar with the
area.
Yeah Temple was around thecorner, so where you are now.
Are you able to shed some lighton any emerging trends in
(25:43):
cannabis science, if any, atthis time and potential pivots
that our audience could takeinto that?
Mr. May (25:51):
Well, I think the trend that's happening now that I see
is there's this whole divisionof recreational versus medicinal
.
I'm not a believer inrecreational.
I believe that every singleproduct you put in your body
that has an altering effect is atherapeutic product in some way
.
Whether you smoke a joint oreat a gummy instead of drinking
(26:11):
your whiskey late at night, orwhatever that is, you're still
altering your mood and should beseen as that type of substance.
What I've been seeing from aresearch standpoint is the
pharmaceutical industry ismoving deeper into research on
cannabinoids and they're movinginto research on cannabinoids
for specific conditions andspecific receptor binding
(26:33):
responses.
What I mean by that is,pharmaceuticals don't understand
or are uncomfortable with wholeplant because they can't really
see which one of the moleculesis actually creating the
benefits Jazz pharmaceuticalsactually has.
Epidialix is the only productthat's actually approved by the
(26:54):
FDA for a form of childhoodepilepsy.
The future of drug developmentis looking at receptor binding
isolated molecules, whether it'sone, two or maybe up to four
different molecules that bind tothose receptors for specific
conditions.
So there are studies.
We're involved in six clinicaltrials right now.
(27:15):
One of them is Harvard Medical,with three going over Chum in
Montreal, and they're all forspecific conditions with a
specific molecule.
So that's the future of pharmawhere it's going Now.
Cannabis itself is still thesmokable products are still the
highest selling products, butnow edibles and gummies are
(27:38):
starting to catch up a littlebit.
So a matter of convenience.
People don't want to smoke intheir lungs, they're out.
They may want a gummy, butwe're seeing a tremendous amount
of increase of adverse effectsbecause of this trend of edibles
.
And the reason why is, I feel,first of all, since we still
don't have guidelines on dosing,we're not sure how much is
(28:01):
actually in this edible, how amI metabolizing that and what is
it triggering for me?
So there's this trend of peoplethat have.
Some people have cannabinoidhyperemesis syndrome.
I'm going to ask you about that.
We actually completed a studyon PubMed on cannabinoid
hyperemesis syndrome our bosswith Dr Ethan Russo and a couple
(28:23):
other people, and we found thatthere are about five different
genetic biomarkers that wereassociated with our cohort.
There is something to be saidby poor metabolizer stress
markers and this connectionthrough the vagus nerves, which
should be a cyclic vomitingsyndrome as well.
(28:43):
So that's our study.
It was a small study whichneeds to be expanded to a larger
cohort, but that's what wefound.
So our goal was not to be ableto diagnose anybody with CHS.
It was to find is there agenetic pattern in a cohort?
That's what we reported on.
So, because we don't know how totalk about an effect like,
(29:06):
here's a product for a certaineffect.
So what people are gravitatingtowards is these higher THC
products, and that's why I thinkwe actually fall into these
traps of adverse effects.
So we're on this hamster wheelof trying to address an adverse
effect for somebody, somebodythat's taking 100 milligrams of
(29:27):
THC, having this effect,triggering the stress reactivity
, triggering the PTSD,triggering maybe a psychotic
episode, and then being reportedas oh, this is the adverse
effects of consuming cannabis.
Well, if I take a handful ofpills that are prescribed to me
that I should only be taking one, but I took a handful of it,
(29:50):
it's the same thing.
You have an adverse effectbecause you took too much and
forget even prescriptionmedication.
What if you went out on a nightand you had a bunch of tequila?
Man, you're going to feelpretty crappy the next day.
You're not going to say man,that Jose Cuervo, whatever that
tequila company.
They really try to do this tome.
They gave me way too much.
No, you're going to blameyourself and saying next time
(30:13):
I'll think better on how tolimit the amount.
And this is this economy.
It makes no sense you took toomuch and now you have an adverse
effect and, yes, that's acrossthe board.
So we have to be really, reallycareful to understand dosing
and I think that is the biggestobstacle to overcome.
One more thing I'm going to sayin this in Canada, for instance
(30:35):
so Canada is a completely betterthan legal country they have
specific guidelines on marketingadvertising.
You can't market advertise acannabis product, so people buy
their products based on thepercentage of THC.
The more THC you have, theperception is the better the
product is, or the betterbargain you're getting, because,
(30:56):
hey, I'm getting 100 milligramsof THC versus 10 or something
like that.
And this is not the way to beable to communicate to people
what an efficacious productshould be.
It should be really, reallyspecific.
And the last thing I'm going tosay on this dosing thing when
states went recreational, theystarted forgetting their
(31:17):
medicinal patients.
In California, you can comeinto a dispensary and you can
find almost every kind ofconcentrate so shatter oil,
crystals, you name it highconcentrate THC products.
But for people that actuallyhave a condition where they need
a therapeutic substance, wherethey need something that's
(31:39):
balanced one to one or even CBDfour parts to one part THC
they're really, really difficultproducts to find.
So we have to actually askourselves that, all these
programs that we're putting inplace and these laws that we're
putting in place, are weforgetting the reason why we
actually did this in the firstplace, to help people that have
(32:01):
a condition or they want to havea therapeutic wellness
substance and those products areless than available for them
now.
Dr. Tamar (32:09):
Yeah, that is interesting.
That is interesting that thepeople that it's intended for,
that these laws that were put inthe place were intended for,
are the ones that are kind ofbeen left behind.
That definitely needs to beaddressed and thank you for
being on the forefront ofgetting that addressed so that
they can address their healthissues and seek some relief as
well.
Now with you have your bookMaking Cannabis Personal.
(32:33):
Can you tell us a little bitabout your book?
Mr. May (32:34):
Yeah, so my book is a little bit of my personal
journey.
It talks about some of thoserallies and then fighting in my
own personal story with cannabis, and then it goes into stories
of different people, so peoplethat have tried cannabis.
I love using grandma Mary.
It's one of my favorite stories.
Dr. Tamar (32:55):
And if we?
Mr. May (32:56):
have a little bit of time, maybe a minute, I can kind
of give you an overview.
Dr. Tamar (32:59):
Definitely.
Mr. May (33:01):
Grandma Mary was sitting in an assisted living
facility and she was diagnosedwith cancer and just started her
first treatment of chemo.
And she was watching TV and sawDr Sanjay Gupta talk about
cannabis to help alleviate theside effects of chemo.
So she decided to go to adispensary and try it.
(33:21):
Now, 50, 60 years ago I don'tknow how to bed experience with
a cannabis brownie, but it was60 years ago.
So she figured hey, why not?
So she went through dispensary.
She told the bartender thereabout her previous experience.
He gave her a gummy and saidgrandma, take it easy, don't do
more than two.
Try one, then take another, butdon't take any more than that.
(33:43):
So grandma listened one back tothe facility, did one, waited
about 20 minutes and nothinghappened.
So she took another one, waited20 more minutes and then she
began to feel very anxious.
Her heart started beating andit started getting progressively
worse and worse and she had areally, really intense
(34:04):
experience.
So the onset was much slower.
It was much more intense andlasted, what she said, for like
almost two days.
She had a very, very longexperience and very intense
experience.
So grandma began to say I'mstaying away from this and
started telling people aroundher.
(34:25):
This is the living facility.
Stay away from devil's lettuce.
Now, when we did grandma's DNAtest, we saw that she had
predispositions to a lot ofthese stress markers that we've
mentioned before on FAH and CNR1, et cetera and had this
predisposition to psychosis aswell.
So, the story is, once sherealized that she needs a more
(34:48):
balanced formulation, somethingthat's more one-to-one,
different terapine profile, shewould not only did it help her
tremendously, but she wouldactually give out our business
card to people when she wasgetting chemo other people to
give them a call and see if wecan help alleviate the symptoms
of chemo.
So that's one of the storiesthat's in the book of trying to
find what's right for you.
(35:09):
And if she didn't do that, itwould have perpetuated this
devil's lettuce kind of thinginstead of finding what is the
right therapeutic dose for thatindividual.
Dr. Tamar (35:19):
Wow, thank you for sharing that story of grandma.
Oh, even grandma needs to getsome therapeutic relief right
from our plants.
So with endodna you've createdin summer you created the DNA
test to help identify whatproduct would be best or not
(35:41):
necessarily best, but just toeducate, find some patients on.
Mr. May (35:46):
The way that it actually works.
When you get the report, youlog into your portal, which is
called MyDNAlive, and you lookat all the different symptomatic
conditions and it's all colorcoded.
So green means there's novariant detected, so there's a
variant.
And red means multiple variants, so especially higher chance of
that symptomatic conditionexpressing itself.
And what you would look at it,it's all categorized.
(36:07):
So you have anxiety markers,mood, you have sleep, you have
all these different markers andyou click on and see what the
report is.
The report may say you are muchmore prone to stress reactivity
than the average person.
Well, guess what?
Here a study's shown how higheramounts of THC can actually
trigger this epigenic expression.
(36:28):
So for you what it may besuggested going for a ratio of
maybe 10 to 1 CBD to THC anddifferent terpene profiles.
Instead of limonene, which is adopamine boosting terpene
profile, maybe look at linole,which has been shown in studies
to help lessen the anxiety thanmay be provoked by THC.
(36:49):
So now that you have your secretsauce, the next thing is dosing
, like I mentioned.
Then it's drug-to-druginteraction.
And then what we do once wehave your secret sauce, that you
may wanna consume products thatare in this category.
Now we use a certificate ofanalysis of the test results of
actual products.
They're geo-fenced and show youhow closely these products
(37:09):
match your suggested ratios.
So when you actually buy aproduct now we can come back and
say how efficacious is thisproduct, that the platform has
suggested, that these are a 90%match for you.
And when it goes back topatient-reported outcome and
also integration with yourwearable device, now AI starts
(37:30):
saying there's a thousand peoplethat have a similar genetic
profile than you that took thisprotocol and have reported
efficacy, so this is probablythe best protocol that's being
suggested for you.
So it's sort of bookends theexperience Okay.
Dr. Tamar (37:45):
Now.
Can you tell us more about thatdevice?
Mr. May (37:47):
Oh yeah, so any wearable, like your O-ring or
your Fitbit or the one I'mwearing right now.
These devices measure differentthings.
So they measure blood oxygenlevel, they measure heart rate
variability, measure the qualityof my sleep For me.
I wear this because sleep isreally important for me, so I
measure the quality of my sleep.
(38:07):
So how much deep sleep am Igetting?
How much Delta?
How much data sleep?
So this data can go to thecloud to be able to support the
protocol.
So if I'm on a protocol to helpme sleep, I'm coming back and
saying you know what?
I slept for nine hours.
I feel like I slept really well.
(38:28):
But the data the RPG data that'scoming from your wearable
device goes to the cloud, addsthat to the anonymized data
based on your patient report oroutcome, and then the AI says,
okay, well, this protocol alsohelped with heart rate
variability.
It helped with blood oxygenlevel.
It helped to get two and a halfhours of deep sleep versus one
(38:49):
hour of deep sleep that thisperson was getting before.
So for sleep, if that's thecondition you want to alleviate,
then this protocol is best.
So it takes that data, combinesit with a PRO and that's how we
get that data from wearabledevices as well, oh, that's good
.
Dr. Tamar (39:04):
So you're actually tracking the improvement and the
outcomes.
Definitely that's great.
So, with EndoDNA and your book,what other big ideas and
projects can you give us a sneakpeek into, Mr May?
Mr. May (39:19):
Lots of big ideas.
I also have a podcast calledEverything is Personal, that I
do so you can find it wherever.
But we're moving into wholegenome sequencing right now so
this is the next 90 days on aroadmap is to move from right
now we genotype right under700,000 polymorphism SNPs we're
(39:41):
moving to 64 million and theplatform is going to be used as
a software, as a service model.
So basically, what our partnersand our customers are asking
for and our customers are notjust the end user customers.
Our customers are healthcareprofessionals, our resellers,
like other companies that wantto use our test and our platform
(40:01):
and the white label at and alsoa global marketplace.
So we're in Brazil, we're inCosta Rica and Brazil it's all
translated Portuguese.
We're in Costa Rica, we're inMexico we're translating that
into Spanish.
We are in the UK all of NorthAmerica, canada as well,
australia, and we're just movinginto Thailand.
So the next iteration is wholegenome.
(40:23):
Now you'll be able to go in,choose the reports that you want
.
So you want the endocannabinasesystem report.
Click there and it's yourplatform.
You want the women's healthreport.
You want the men's healthreport.
You want the skin report.
You want the full vitaminnutrient.
You want the PGX reports,that's what you'd be choosing,
(40:46):
and then you'll pay accordingly,based on the reports that you
want, and then we'll continue.
That is our software goals,that's our corporate goals.
And then it's clinical trials.
So we wanna get involved in asmany clinical research studies
as we possibly can, because wefeel that a lot of clinical
(41:08):
research that's being done isnot looking at your
pharmacogenomics, it's notlooking at your metabolic
functions, it's not looking atyour genetic predispositions.
And the next phase of this isalso looking at biological age.
So think about being swabbedtwice, or maybe even getting
(41:29):
enough from saliva, where yourwhole genome, we have your
biological age, and from yourbiological age you have a
protocol that's been suggestedto you or been recommended.
And here's a protocol of maybeeven your hormone optimization,
your personalizedsupplementation, your
phytonutrients, so yourphyto-canabinoids maybe even
(41:51):
have some prescriptionmedication that we haven't
decided on that.
But then in six months we comeback and swab you again and we
see if your biological age hasdecreased.
So the mandate that I sort ofgave the company is our goal is
to see if we can help peopledecrease their biological age by
seven years.
And how we do that.
(42:11):
First of all, we have to learnyour genetic predispositions and
then, over time, hopefullymachine learning will start
making those predictions as well.
Dr. Tamar (42:20):
Well, thank you for sharing that.
I am looking forward toeverything that you have coming
out with doing the whole genomesequencing now.
So big things to come.
Well, thank you for joining meon the podcast.
It's been a pleasure, Mr May.
Mr. May (42:33):
I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
Dr. Tamar (42:35):
Well, that's all I have for you today.
If any part of thisconversation interests you or
resonated with you, we wouldlove to hear your thoughts.
Your five-star review andcomments can guide others on
similar journey and with similarinterests.
Subscribe, rate and downloadthis episode to ensure you're
always in the loop, and checkout the show notes for Mr May's
information Coming at next week.
(42:56):
On the show, I have a specialguest who will give us some
pointers on how to create apowerful thought leader brand so
you can scale your business andattract your ideal client.
So tune in next Friday.
Until then, always remember inyour journey as a healthcare
professional, always raise thescript on health, because
together we can bring healthcareto higher levels.
(43:17):
Have a great day.
Are you frustrated with the one size fits all
approach to health and wellness?
Do you wish there were morepersonalized solutions based on
your unique genetics and biology?
If so, you're in the rightplace.
My guest today is Mr Len May,founder and CEO of EndoDNA, a
company using advanced DNAtesting and AI to provide
(00:21):
customized cannabis and wellnessrecommendations for medicinal
use.
Mr May shares how understandingyour genetic predispositions
can help determine the rightcannabis and supplement
protocols for your needs.
That's right.
The answer is in your DNA, sotune in to get the details.
Welcome to Pivoting Pharmacywith Nutrigenomics.
(00:43):
Part of the Pharmacy PodcastNetwork, a must-have resource
for pharmacist entrepreneursseeking to enhance patient care
while enjoying career and life.
Join us as we pivot intoNutrigenomics, using pharmacy
and nutrition for truepatient-focused care.
Explore how to improve chronicconditions rather than just
(01:06):
manage them.
Celebrate entrepreneurialtriumphs and receive priceless
advice.
Align your values with a careerthat profoundly impacts
patients.
Together, we'll raise thescript on health and pivot into
a brighter future.
Before you listen in, I want tothank our listener of the week,
allsportsmom21, who says it'srefreshing to hear another
(01:28):
perspective to help in patientsand educate in patients to learn
about how to heal themselvesand get healthy.
Thank you, allsportsmom.
It's refreshing to me that youfound our podcast refreshing and
helpful.
The essence of pivotingpharmacy with Nutrigenomics is
to guide listeners like you andshake it off the traditional
shackles of pharmacy practice,moving towards a holistic,
(01:50):
patient-focused approach.
We believe in sharpening thetools of self-education and
self-healing, not just for us ashealthcare professionals, but
for our patients too.
So please continue to join uson our collective exploration
into fresh avenues of patientcare.
So thank you for your reviewand remember, when you leave us
a five-star review, you'll getthe chance to be featured as our
(02:13):
next listener of the week andI'll give you a shout out right
here on the show.
Hello, hello and welcome toepisode 16 of Pivoting Pharmacy
with Nutrigenomics.
I'm Dr Tamar Lawful, doctor ofpharmacy and nutritional
genomics specialist.
You know there are moments inour lives that challenged the
way we see things, that make usquestion the status quo.
(02:35):
Well, this is one of thosemoments.
We're about to challenge somecommonly held beliefs about
cannabis consumption Intriguing,right.
I'm beyond thrilled to diveinto this topic with you All
right, so you've heard the buzzon cannabis restorative
therapeutic effects, a naturalalternative Sounds like the
perfect remedy, right, but howdoes someone find the right
(02:57):
product or dose.
The truth is theone-size-fits-all approach,
isn't it?
What if I told you you canpersonalize the medicinal
cannabis journey much like yourfavorite cup of coffee Stirring,
isn't it?
On this groundbreaking episode,we're debunking the myths and
taking personalize to a wholenew level.
(03:19):
Ever heard of DNA testing forcannabis?
It's like 23 and me, but foryour cannabis needs.
So let's see what this is allabout in today's episode with Mr
May, ceo and co-founder ofEndocana Health Incorporated,
who joins us with a rich 25-yearhistory in cannabis and
genomics.
He has paved a luminous trailin patient-centered care.
(03:40):
As a certified medical cannabisspecialist in medicinal
genomics and holding a master'sof medical cannabis, mr May has
an in-depth knowledge ofgenomics, cannabinoids and
terpenes and their interactionwith the endocannabinoid system
as well.
He is a thought leader inmedicinal genomics and affirms
(04:02):
the power of personalizedhealthcare.
This enlightening conversationcould be the catalyst you need
to redefine your role inpharmacy.
So let's dive right into theunder-bridge world of
nutrigenomics and cannabis.
This is sure to ignite yourentrepreneurial journey.
Let's listen in.
Welcome, mr May.
Thank you for joining us on thePivoting Pharmacy with
(04:23):
Nutrigenomics podcast.
Now can you give our listenersa little bit?
Tell us about you.
Mr. May (04:29):
Well about me.
Well, how long do we have?
I was actually born in acountry called Lithuania and
immigrated when I was about sixyears old, grew up in
Philadelphia and moved to LosAngeles about 16 years ago.
But I was the kind of kid thatwould sit in class and I get all
(04:50):
these different thoughts likeWindows and your computer will
be open my head, sort ofdaydreaming, and a teacher will
call on you and be like what?
Now Back to present.
So I got diagnosed with ADD andI was put on all kinds of
prescription medication and Ican't say it didn't work
whatever the definition of workis, but they all kind of numb me
(05:13):
.
So it took away any feeling ofself.
And I was hanging out with somekids, just I guess in the
beginning of high school, maybethe end of my eighth grade,
ninth grade somewhere aroundthere, and they asked me to
smoke a cigarette with them.
I'm like cool, hanging out withthe cool kids, we'll smoke a
cigarette and I never questionedwhy they only have one
(05:35):
cigarette.
So they ended up passing thecigarette to me.
I took a drag of that cigaretteand kind of taste weird.
I took another drag and kind ofcoughed a little bit and
they're all laughing at me.
So they have cannabis insidethe cigarette and when I went to
class the windows in my headsort of narrowed.
(05:55):
They disappeared.
I could focus.
Okay, this is odd.
So then every single time theywere consuming cannabis.
After that it did the samething.
I never mentioned anybody thatwe would consume chronicler
recreationally or whatever earand ears and would get older.
My parents didn't care for thatthat much, so they would get
(06:15):
upset with me and at the end ofthe day, at the end of high
school, they end up kicking meout, actually calling the cops,
I mean trying to have mearrested.
The irony of the story is thatthey consume formulations that
my company produces now, and allof these are genetics tests.
So I can't kind of full circle.
But that started my trajectoryinto really understanding the
(06:35):
plan and how it affects yourbody and what your end of
cannabinoid system is.
So I became an activist.
I was the president of thecannabis action network
legalization back in the mid 90s, and then my ex-wife, who was
my girlfriend at the time, saidI have to get a real job.
So I went to work for PriceWaterhouse.
I was going to physical therapyschool.
(06:57):
That was my sort of background,thank you.
Then I was a consultant for aventure capital company.
Then I was a commercial realestate broker for a while, moved
to Los Angeles, was still sortof down in real estate and then
these guys came in and wanted toopen an alternative pharmacy.
Like that's interesting, whatdo you really want to do?
And it was dispensary, so Ihelped them and they offered me
(07:19):
a partnership and I ended upbeing a partner in five
different dispensaries under thesame brand.
But my passion has still beenthe therapeutic properties of
the plant.
So I was always trying tofigure out why two people
consumed the same chemicalvariety and have a completely
different experience.
So I really started focusing onplant genomics.
I found a video by a gentlemannamed Kevin McCartan, who was
(07:40):
the first person in the geneticsequence cannabis, and reached
out to him and learned a lotabout plant genetics, and their
parent company was apharmacogenomics company and I
still got really involved in thehuman genetics.
So anyway, that's mylong-winded story about my
background and I can dive intoany more specifics.
Dr. Tamar (08:01):
I like it.
So, from your accidentalexperience with cannabis and how
it impacted your ADED to nowmaking it a company where we're
focusing on being more specific,you're focusing on genetics and
a different strains that wouldbe more beneficial for people
based on their genetics.
From looking at your background, you've mastered the workings
(08:24):
of the endocannaboid system andthe interplay with genomics.
So how might this knowledgeactually empower pharmacists who
want to redefine their role anddeliver a more personalized
approach to health?
Mr. May (08:37):
Well, I just believe that everything is a
personalized approach to healthand wellness.
So we've been sort of doingthis cookie cutter approach for
way too long.
Take two of these and call mewell, why should I take two of
these?
Why should I take four, or whyshould I take one?
Maybe I'm an ultra rapidmetabolizer, maybe I'm a poor
metabolizer.
So the way that we sort of lookat this is the way that we met
(09:00):
with the FDA and they asked uswhat is the purpose of your test
?
And we told them to help peopleeither mitigate or avoid a
possible adverse event.
It's wonderful.
So that's the goal and what wedo is focused on that.
First, it's to be able to helppeople, guide people to an
experience that is going to besafe First, efficacious is.
(09:21):
Second, we want to make surethat people consume things that
are not going to trigger apossible adverse event.
So when I look at this, wegenotype somewhere around
700,000 genetic biomarkers andwhat we look at is everything is
directly or indirectlyassociated with the
endocannaboid system andunderstanding how the
endocannaboid system worksbecause it touches every other
(09:43):
system in our bodies and weunderstand how our endogenous
endocannabids, what are theneurochemicals that we produce
ourselves and how does thataffect an individual in
different types of activities ordifferent types of work they do
or stress things of that nature.
So people that consumephyto-cannabinoids that actually
(10:04):
can bridge those gaps, they maybe naturally deficient in
themselves.
Well, if they consume somethingthat is not really aligned with
them, they can actually triggerthe adverse effect prone to
stress reactivity and has apredisposition for that.
And they consume higher THC,which has a very narrow
therapeutic window.
With certain terpene profiles,which are essential oils in the
(10:27):
plant, they can actually triggerthe predisposition and
epigenetically express thatstress reactivity, instead of
the opposite of what they reallywanted to do.
So our goal is to be able toguide people and pharmacists are
very comfortable withpharmacogenomics Right, so
you're looking at how things tointeract.
(10:48):
So think about this as anothersupplement they can take a look
at and see how it would interactin order for people to avoid
those adverse events.
And the kicker is now that wesort of have a secret sauce like
this is the area that I shouldbe in.
These are cannabinoid terpenesare more aligned with me.
Now this is how I should bedosing, based on my metabolic
(11:10):
function, and we're looking atspecific cytokine.
P450 markers are associatedwith cannabis, and now we can
actually start matching people,the products, based on the
certificate of analysis and testresults of products, and then
seeing how closely thoseproducts match their suggest
ratios.
And, the best part about it,there's a feedback loop so we
actually have people reportoutcome and also integrate
(11:33):
wearable devices so we can startbuilding data.
So the first thing we start issafety, but now we want to make
sure these products areefficacious, and by efficacious
is there is a reduction of blank, whatever it is, or there's an
increase of whatever that is,and we use clinical value, that
assays like the peg three forpain, etc.
To be able to document allthose things, to create what we
(11:56):
consider the world's largestobservational study on efficacy
using these substances as well.
Dr. Tamar (12:02):
Wow, that's amazing.
So Clarify you're looking atthese genomic factors from the
client or patient as well as thephytonomics and matching them.
Mr. May (12:11):
Yes.
So the way that it works is weget DNA data two ways.
Number one is our patentedendo-DNA test.
So the patent is and I'm goingto kind of paraphrase it it's
the use of DNA to makerecommendations associated with
the endocannabinase system,presented through a graphical
user interface.
And the PTO approved our AImachine learning algorithm that
(12:35):
we've been using since 2018 aswell.
So we extended that patent andthe machine learning starts
making predictive inferencesbased on buckets, et cetera.
The more critical mass that wehave, the better hone in on
suggestions that we can make.
So first is our endo-DNA test.
It is HIPAA and GDPR compliant.
(12:55):
You can get it at your doctors,you can get online.
You would swab the inside yourcheek, you'd register that and
you would send that sample toour lab.
It'll take two to four weeks toget your results and then you
would get your results in yourpersonalized portal and I'll
explain sort of what we'relooking at there.
And the second thing is ifsomebody's already taken a DNA
test, like 23Me or Ancestrycomor any other DNA test, you can
(13:19):
take the raw data from that test, upload it to our portal.
We'll translate that andprovide you a report within an
hour that shows you basicallythe same kind of information.
There will be some missingpolymorphisms that they don't
cover, but it'll give you atleast 50% coverage.
And the first thing we look atis every single symptomatic
(13:39):
condition, what people consumecannabis for and where your
genetics play a role, socognitive function, immunohealth
, pain and nausea, sleep mood.
And then we look at thespecific genes, specific genetic
biomarkers, that are associatedwith their symptomatic
conditions.
We look at possiblepredispositions to adverse
effects.
So some people are predisposedto things like psychodomatic
(14:03):
effects, like COSES-like effects, so we actually show everybody
what their predisposition is andhow to sort of navigate those
sharp corners to make sure thatyou don't step in a pothole
that's in the room.
And then, as I said, the nextthing we look at is drug-to-drug
interaction.
So right now we have over 200different medications that we
(14:25):
pull in and we see if any ofthose have a documented
interaction and every singlereport that we have must have a
peer-reviewed reference from anessay that was done PubMed or
equivalent to PubMed.
Talk about drug interactionalso.
The second part is metabolicfunction.
So we look at three specificcytokone P450 pathways where
(14:48):
cannabinoids are, where theenzymatic pathways are, so
CYP2C9 for THC, cyp2c19 for CBDand CYP3A4 for CBD and THC
together.
That's why one of the reasonswhy people have different
experiences when they use awhole plan versus the individual
components as well.
Dr. Tamar (15:10):
Oh, interesting.
I think it's also great thatyou make it usable for everyone.
If they already have their DNAthrough another company, they
can upload it, although theywon't get all the polymorphisms
to be run.
So how do you approach asituation where you find that
someone might be more prone topsychosis with the use of
cannabis?
(15:30):
Then what would you do?
Mr. May (15:32):
So this is for informational purposes only.
The FDA does not approveanything that has to do with the
endocannabinary system.
It's a rescheduling of cannabis.
So provide that information.
If they would like to speak toa health care professional, we
can actually facilitate thatthrough telehealth.
If they would like to have aconversation with their own
health care professional, theycan do so as well.
(15:53):
They can mitigate or maybeavoid hired THC products then
can trigger psychosis in thosepeople.
Hired CBD, as the platform willprobably suggest very low THC,
higher CBD, different terapineprofiles.
But we empower you withinformation to make your own
decisions.
(16:14):
So we don't have a clinicalfiltration of any sort of way.
We don't prescribe and the onlything we do is provide you sort
of your own personalized GPS soyou can make more informed
decisions with your fight ofcannabinoid use.
And then you can take thatinformation and take whatever
actually you think is relevantfor you.
(16:35):
But I would say that based onthousands and thousands of
people that we looked at mostpeople that THC really does have
narrow therapeutic window.
When you take too littlethere's very little efficacy.
When you take too much it doestrigger a lot of those adverse
effects Because you have sort offree radical anandamide, which
(16:56):
is the endogenous version ofwhat we consume THC Delta 9, it
binds your CB1 receptors in ourbrains and our central nervous
system and releases anandamide.
So if you have too muchanandamide, you actually have an
immunoresponse to that whichcan trigger a lot of these
adverse effects.
So we want to make sure thatpeople have really transparent
(17:17):
information.
And, by the way, this is notjust with fight of cannabinoids.
We're actually moving rightdown to whole genome sequencing.
So we're moving to 64 milliongenetic biomarkers.
So looking at personalizedprecision wellness and it's
looking at your entire genome.
Looking at supplements,interactions what are the
supplements and druginteractions what are the things
(17:39):
we have a supplement for?
We have a skin report.
We have a mental health report.
We have a report on women'shealth.
We're working with women'shealth specialists to look at
predispositions to menopause,perimenopause, postmenopause.
What are the symptomsassociated with this person's
individual menopause?
Are they more prone to moodswings?
(18:00):
Are they more prone todifferent things?
And we can actually have thatcommunication, because the idea
is to have a collaborativeexperience with your health care
professional.
Both look at the sameinformation and you can jointly
make better form health caredecisions for the individuals.
That's where our goal is.
Dr. Tamar (18:17):
I love it.
I love it.
Mr May, that is pretty awesome.
We talk about precision Likewhy guess, why guess, when you
have these tools that candefinitely help streamline the
care health care for patientsand clients.
I absolutely love it.
So you've been steerheading thelegislation or been part of
(18:40):
legislation around cannabis.
Can you share what your journeyhas been like with that?
Was there a turning point alongthis process?
Mr. May (18:47):
Well, I brought up that I used to be the president of
the Cannabis Action Network, soa lot of it is in a way.
And I had a rally inIndependence Hall in
Philadelphia.
This was back in 1993.
And Independence Hall is wherethe Liberty Bell was.
Constitution Declaration ofIndependence, by the way,
written in hemp paper.
But my keynote speaker was thislady named Elvie Musica, and
(19:12):
Elvie was one of the at theheight of the program.
There were 16 people, but Ithink there was four left that
were getting legal cannabis fromthe United States government
under this program.
There was cultivated inMississippi with a USDA label on
it.
So think about it this way it'sa Schedule I narcotic, no
medicinal purposes.
(19:33):
The federal government did havea patent for it as a new
protecting, cultivates it in theUniversity of Mississippi for
research purposes and actuallyallowed 16 people to have this
plan.
OK there's some irony there.
I don't know.
It's not for me to decide why,I'm just sharing it with the
audience and everybody can go onGoogle and research it.
(19:54):
So LB was one of those peoplethat would get medically
prescribed cannabis.
So cannabis was cultivated inMississippi central location,
rolled into they looked likecigarettes and metal jar with a
USDA label on it, and she openedthis jar and lit up her
cigarette joint in federalrangers because it depends all
(20:17):
this federal property.
And no, we did anything becauseshe had federally legal
cannabis.
Now that was an exciting moment.
This is 1993.
Pennsylvania didn't legalizeuntil 2020.
I think so it took a very, very, very long time.
Now moved to California.
There was this Prop 215 andSB420, which allowed for the use
(20:41):
of cannabis in this collective.
And when they say collective,basically it was not for profit
entity.
So if you are the cultivator,you're cultivating for me, for
my medical condition, and itcosts you $30 to cultivate it.
Now we have an exchange youprovide me a product, I give you
$30, you didn't make any profit, but I got my medicine and that
(21:03):
was the model until you knowwhen recreational a few years
back.
So as we're talking policy,there's two different types of
policies.
There's the policy for thestates themselves, then there's
the federal policies overarchingand there's a huge disconnect.
Now the hemp bill actuallyhelped to alleviate some of this
(21:25):
, because 0.3% THC productsunder the hemp bill that are
hemp-thrived can be extractedand can be shipped throughout
the country.
So people are getting, you know, those kind of products.
The challenge is that peoplewho have conditions that require
high amounts of THC can't, andthere's still those, you know,
(21:45):
refugees that are going fromstate to state.
That's one thing.
Number two the federalgovernment has been looking at
legalizing cannabis for yearsand lately one of their
conditions is they're looking atrescheduling cannabis.
So when you reschedule cannabisto a schedule three or four,
you will.
It's still a controlledsubstance.
(22:07):
You still need to be able tohave some sort of prescription
or, even if it's OTC, you haveto go to a pharmacy to show your
license and your.
I don't know if dispensariesare going to be the future of
dispensing medicine, with nooffense to bug tenders but
people who are unqualified togive any medical suggestions,
(22:30):
providing people with medicinethat they really need.
Now, georgia is the first statethat actually approved cannabis
to be actually sold through apharmacy, which I believe is a
crystal ball to look in thefuture, because that's something
that I feel you know.
You have qualified pharmacists,you have people who understand
(22:50):
how certain drugs interact and,yes, cannabis is absolutely a
drug how it interacts withindividual individualist bodies.
So to me, I believe thatthere's going to be a shift at
some point with federal policy.
When I met with the FDA about amonth ago in Chicago, we were at
a conference called BenzingaConference.
I was speaking there and some ofthe members of the FDA and they
(23:12):
said one of the toughest thingsthey have right now is to be
able to look at safety of thisproduct because there's so many
derivatives that are coming outDelta 8, delta 10, they're not
sure.
These isomers they're creatingfrom hemp, which is you know,
these loopholes in the law, howsafety are you know?
And that this is the wholeapproach that I feel the federal
(23:36):
government needs to take.
First is to create standards.
Think about this way if I'm inCalifornia and I have a cannabis
product let's say it's aone-to-one with a certain
terapine profile well, if I goto Pennsylvania, I can't get
that same product.
We have completeinconsistencies.
I should be able to get myvitamin, my supplement, the same
(23:58):
way at a vitamin store, nomatter where I go.
The labels should be identical,the testing guidelines should
be identical, and that's wherethe federal government has to
come in and create theseoverarching regulations to make
sure that we have safe andefficacious products in every
one of our states.
Dr. Tamar (24:16):
Right, I agree, it would definitely have to be safe
and efficacious.
But then who makes it?
Is going to be another type ofpharma company that's involved
in this, so that it isstandardized across the nation.
You mean, who actuallymanufactures?
Who manufactures?
Yeah?
Mr. May (24:32):
We have CGMP guidelines right.
So if a pharmacist doesn't haveto manufacture supplements but
supplements actually haveguidelines, that they should
follow throughout.
So there are medical foodproducts.
There is a category ofsupplements that is approved by
the FDA.
There are supplements withspecific labels that are
(24:52):
approved by the FDA.
So I'm saying that if they havelicensed manufacturers that are
making supplements, licensedmanufacturers can also make
phyto-canabinatory products, aslong as they adhere to the
standards, not only GMP, butthere's also standards on
pharmaceutical drugs that shouldbe taken and who manufactures
(25:13):
them should be the people thatare approved to follow those
specific guidelines that have anoversight by the FDA.
Dr. Tamar (25:20):
That's my view, 100%, 100%.
I love it From standing inIndependence Hall.
In 93, I went to college inPhiladelphia.
I grew up on the East Coast aswell, so very familiar with the
area.
Yeah Temple was around thecorner, so where you are now.
Are you able to shed some lighton any emerging trends in
(25:43):
cannabis science, if any, atthis time and potential pivots
that our audience could takeinto that?
Mr. May (25:51):
Well, I think the trend that's happening now that I see
is there's this whole divisionof recreational versus medicinal
.
I'm not a believer inrecreational.
I believe that every singleproduct you put in your body
that has an altering effect is atherapeutic product in some way
.
Whether you smoke a joint oreat a gummy instead of drinking
(26:11):
your whiskey late at night, orwhatever that is, you're still
altering your mood and should beseen as that type of substance.
What I've been seeing from aresearch standpoint is the
pharmaceutical industry ismoving deeper into research on
cannabinoids and they're movinginto research on cannabinoids
for specific conditions andspecific receptor binding
(26:33):
responses.
What I mean by that is,pharmaceuticals don't understand
or are uncomfortable with wholeplant because they can't really
see which one of the moleculesis actually creating the
benefits Jazz pharmaceuticalsactually has.
Epidialix is the only productthat's actually approved by the
(26:54):
FDA for a form of childhoodepilepsy.
The future of drug developmentis looking at receptor binding
isolated molecules, whether it'sone, two or maybe up to four
different molecules that bind tothose receptors for specific
conditions.
So there are studies.
We're involved in six clinicaltrials right now.
(27:15):
One of them is Harvard Medical,with three going over Chum in
Montreal, and they're all forspecific conditions with a
specific molecule.
So that's the future of pharmawhere it's going Now.
Cannabis itself is still thesmokable products are still the
highest selling products, butnow edibles and gummies are
(27:38):
starting to catch up a littlebit.
So a matter of convenience.
People don't want to smoke intheir lungs, they're out.
They may want a gummy, butwe're seeing a tremendous amount
of increase of adverse effectsbecause of this trend of edibles
.
And the reason why is, I feel,first of all, since we still
don't have guidelines on dosing,we're not sure how much is
(28:01):
actually in this edible, how amI metabolizing that and what is
it triggering for me?
So there's this trend of peoplethat have.
Some people have cannabinoidhyperemesis syndrome.
I'm going to ask you about that.
We actually completed a studyon PubMed on cannabinoid
hyperemesis syndrome our bosswith Dr Ethan Russo and a couple
(28:23):
other people, and we found thatthere are about five different
genetic biomarkers that wereassociated with our cohort.
There is something to be saidby poor metabolizer stress
markers and this connectionthrough the vagus nerves, which
should be a cyclic vomitingsyndrome as well.
(28:43):
So that's our study.
It was a small study whichneeds to be expanded to a larger
cohort, but that's what wefound.
So our goal was not to be ableto diagnose anybody with CHS.
It was to find is there agenetic pattern in a cohort?
That's what we reported on.
So, because we don't know how totalk about an effect like,
(29:06):
here's a product for a certaineffect.
So what people are gravitatingtowards is these higher THC
products, and that's why I thinkwe actually fall into these
traps of adverse effects.
So we're on this hamster wheelof trying to address an adverse
effect for somebody, somebodythat's taking 100 milligrams of
(29:27):
THC, having this effect,triggering the stress reactivity
, triggering the PTSD,triggering maybe a psychotic
episode, and then being reportedas oh, this is the adverse
effects of consuming cannabis.
Well, if I take a handful ofpills that are prescribed to me
that I should only be taking one, but I took a handful of it,
(29:50):
it's the same thing.
You have an adverse effectbecause you took too much and
forget even prescriptionmedication.
What if you went out on a nightand you had a bunch of tequila?
Man, you're going to feelpretty crappy the next day.
You're not going to say man,that Jose Cuervo, whatever that
tequila company.
They really try to do this tome.
They gave me way too much.
No, you're going to blameyourself and saying next time
(30:13):
I'll think better on how tolimit the amount.
And this is this economy.
It makes no sense you took toomuch and now you have an adverse
effect and, yes, that's acrossthe board.
So we have to be really, reallycareful to understand dosing
and I think that is the biggestobstacle to overcome.
One more thing I'm going to sayin this in Canada, for instance
(30:35):
so Canada is a completely betterthan legal country they have
specific guidelines on marketingadvertising.
You can't market advertise acannabis product, so people buy
their products based on thepercentage of THC.
The more THC you have, theperception is the better the
product is, or the betterbargain you're getting, because,
(30:56):
hey, I'm getting 100 milligramsof THC versus 10 or something
like that.
And this is not the way to beable to communicate to people
what an efficacious productshould be.
It should be really, reallyspecific.
And the last thing I'm going tosay on this dosing thing when
states went recreational, theystarted forgetting their
(31:17):
medicinal patients.
In California, you can comeinto a dispensary and you can
find almost every kind ofconcentrate so shatter oil,
crystals, you name it highconcentrate THC products.
But for people that actuallyhave a condition where they need
a therapeutic substance, wherethey need something that's
(31:39):
balanced one to one or even CBDfour parts to one part THC
they're really, really difficultproducts to find.
So we have to actually askourselves that, all these
programs that we're putting inplace and these laws that we're
putting in place, are weforgetting the reason why we
actually did this in the firstplace, to help people that have
(32:01):
a condition or they want to havea therapeutic wellness
substance and those products areless than available for them
now.
Dr. Tamar (32:09):
Yeah, that is interesting.
That is interesting that thepeople that it's intended for,
that these laws that were put inthe place were intended for,
are the ones that are kind ofbeen left behind.
That definitely needs to beaddressed and thank you for
being on the forefront ofgetting that addressed so that
they can address their healthissues and seek some relief as
well.
Now with you have your bookMaking Cannabis Personal.
(32:33):
Can you tell us a little bitabout your book?
Mr. May (32:34):
Yeah, so my book is a little bit of my personal
journey.
It talks about some of thoserallies and then fighting in my
own personal story with cannabis, and then it goes into stories
of different people, so peoplethat have tried cannabis.
I love using grandma Mary.
It's one of my favorite stories.
Dr. Tamar (32:55):
And if we?
Mr. May (32:56):
have a little bit of time, maybe a minute, I can kind
of give you an overview.
Dr. Tamar (32:59):
Definitely.
Mr. May (33:01):
Grandma Mary was sitting in an assisted living
facility and she was diagnosedwith cancer and just started her
first treatment of chemo.
And she was watching TV and sawDr Sanjay Gupta talk about
cannabis to help alleviate theside effects of chemo.
So she decided to go to adispensary and try it.
(33:21):
Now, 50, 60 years ago I don'tknow how to bed experience with
a cannabis brownie, but it was60 years ago.
So she figured hey, why not?
So she went through dispensary.
She told the bartender thereabout her previous experience.
He gave her a gummy and saidgrandma, take it easy, don't do
more than two.
Try one, then take another, butdon't take any more than that.
(33:43):
So grandma listened one back tothe facility, did one, waited
about 20 minutes and nothinghappened.
So she took another one, waited20 more minutes and then she
began to feel very anxious.
Her heart started beating andit started getting progressively
worse and worse and she had areally, really intense
(34:04):
experience.
So the onset was much slower.
It was much more intense andlasted, what she said, for like
almost two days.
She had a very, very longexperience and very intense
experience.
So grandma began to say I'mstaying away from this and
started telling people aroundher.
(34:25):
This is the living facility.
Stay away from devil's lettuce.
Now, when we did grandma's DNAtest, we saw that she had
predispositions to a lot ofthese stress markers that we've
mentioned before on FAH and CNR1, et cetera and had this
predisposition to psychosis aswell.
So, the story is, once sherealized that she needs a more
(34:48):
balanced formulation, somethingthat's more one-to-one,
different terapine profile, shewould not only did it help her
tremendously, but she wouldactually give out our business
card to people when she wasgetting chemo other people to
give them a call and see if wecan help alleviate the symptoms
of chemo.
So that's one of the storiesthat's in the book of trying to
find what's right for you.
(35:09):
And if she didn't do that, itwould have perpetuated this
devil's lettuce kind of thinginstead of finding what is the
right therapeutic dose for thatindividual.
Dr. Tamar (35:19):
Wow, thank you for sharing that story of grandma.
Oh, even grandma needs to getsome therapeutic relief right
from our plants.
So with endodna you've createdin summer you created the DNA
test to help identify whatproduct would be best or not
(35:41):
necessarily best, but just toeducate, find some patients on.
Mr. May (35:46):
The way that it actually works.
When you get the report, youlog into your portal, which is
called MyDNAlive, and you lookat all the different symptomatic
conditions and it's all colorcoded.
So green means there's novariant detected, so there's a
variant.
And red means multiple variants, so especially higher chance of
that symptomatic conditionexpressing itself.
And what you would look at it,it's all categorized.
(36:07):
So you have anxiety markers,mood, you have sleep, you have
all these different markers andyou click on and see what the
report is.
The report may say you are muchmore prone to stress reactivity
than the average person.
Well, guess what?
Here a study's shown how higheramounts of THC can actually
trigger this epigenic expression.
(36:28):
So for you what it may besuggested going for a ratio of
maybe 10 to 1 CBD to THC anddifferent terpene profiles.
Instead of limonene, which is adopamine boosting terpene
profile, maybe look at linole,which has been shown in studies
to help lessen the anxiety thanmay be provoked by THC.
(36:49):
So now that you have your secretsauce, the next thing is dosing
, like I mentioned.
Then it's drug-to-druginteraction.
And then what we do once wehave your secret sauce, that you
may wanna consume products thatare in this category.
Now we use a certificate ofanalysis of the test results of
actual products.
They're geo-fenced and show youhow closely these products
(37:09):
match your suggested ratios.
So when you actually buy aproduct now we can come back and
say how efficacious is thisproduct, that the platform has
suggested, that these are a 90%match for you.
And when it goes back topatient-reported outcome and
also integration with yourwearable device, now AI starts
(37:30):
saying there's a thousand peoplethat have a similar genetic
profile than you that took thisprotocol and have reported
efficacy, so this is probablythe best protocol that's being
suggested for you.
So it's sort of bookends theexperience Okay.
Dr. Tamar (37:45):
Now.
Can you tell us more about thatdevice?
Mr. May (37:47):
Oh yeah, so any wearable, like your O-ring or
your Fitbit or the one I'mwearing right now.
These devices measure differentthings.
So they measure blood oxygenlevel, they measure heart rate
variability, measure the qualityof my sleep For me.
I wear this because sleep isreally important for me, so I
measure the quality of my sleep.
(38:07):
So how much deep sleep am Igetting?
How much Delta?
How much data sleep?
So this data can go to thecloud to be able to support the
protocol.
So if I'm on a protocol to helpme sleep, I'm coming back and
saying you know what?
I slept for nine hours.
I feel like I slept really well.
(38:28):
But the data the RPG data that'scoming from your wearable
device goes to the cloud, addsthat to the anonymized data
based on your patient report oroutcome, and then the AI says,
okay, well, this protocol alsohelped with heart rate
variability.
It helped with blood oxygenlevel.
It helped to get two and a halfhours of deep sleep versus one
(38:49):
hour of deep sleep that thisperson was getting before.
So for sleep, if that's thecondition you want to alleviate,
then this protocol is best.
So it takes that data, combinesit with a PRO and that's how we
get that data from wearabledevices as well, oh, that's good
.
Dr. Tamar (39:04):
So you're actually tracking the improvement and the
outcomes.
Definitely that's great.
So, with EndoDNA and your book,what other big ideas and
projects can you give us a sneakpeek into, Mr May?
Mr. May (39:19):
Lots of big ideas.
I also have a podcast calledEverything is Personal, that I
do so you can find it wherever.
But we're moving into wholegenome sequencing right now so
this is the next 90 days on aroadmap is to move from right
now we genotype right under700,000 polymorphism SNPs we're
(39:41):
moving to 64 million and theplatform is going to be used as
a software, as a service model.
So basically, what our partnersand our customers are asking
for and our customers are notjust the end user customers.
Our customers are healthcareprofessionals, our resellers,
like other companies that wantto use our test and our platform
(40:01):
and the white label at and alsoa global marketplace.
So we're in Brazil, we're inCosta Rica and Brazil it's all
translated Portuguese.
We're in Costa Rica, we're inMexico we're translating that
into Spanish.
We are in the UK all of NorthAmerica, canada as well,
australia, and we're just movinginto Thailand.
So the next iteration is wholegenome.
(40:23):
Now you'll be able to go in,choose the reports that you want
.
So you want the endocannabinasesystem report.
Click there and it's yourplatform.
You want the women's healthreport.
You want the men's healthreport.
You want the skin report.
You want the full vitaminnutrient.
You want the PGX reports,that's what you'd be choosing,
(40:46):
and then you'll pay accordingly,based on the reports that you
want, and then we'll continue.
That is our software goals,that's our corporate goals.
And then it's clinical trials.
So we wanna get involved in asmany clinical research studies
as we possibly can, because wefeel that a lot of clinical
(41:08):
research that's being done isnot looking at your
pharmacogenomics, it's notlooking at your metabolic
functions, it's not looking atyour genetic predispositions.
And the next phase of this isalso looking at biological age.
So think about being swabbedtwice, or maybe even getting
(41:29):
enough from saliva, where yourwhole genome, we have your
biological age, and from yourbiological age you have a
protocol that's been suggestedto you or been recommended.
And here's a protocol of maybeeven your hormone optimization,
your personalizedsupplementation, your
phytonutrients, so yourphyto-canabinoids maybe even
(41:51):
have some prescriptionmedication that we haven't
decided on that.
But then in six months we comeback and swab you again and we
see if your biological age hasdecreased.
So the mandate that I sort ofgave the company is our goal is
to see if we can help peopledecrease their biological age by
seven years.
And how we do that.
(42:11):
First of all, we have to learnyour genetic predispositions and
then, over time, hopefullymachine learning will start
making those predictions as well.
Dr. Tamar (42:20):
Well, thank you for sharing that.
I am looking forward toeverything that you have coming
out with doing the whole genomesequencing now.
So big things to come.
Well, thank you for joining meon the podcast.
It's been a pleasure, Mr May.
Mr. May (42:33):
I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
Dr. Tamar (42:35):
Well, that's all I have for you today.
If any part of thisconversation interests you or
resonated with you, we wouldlove to hear your thoughts.
Your five-star review andcomments can guide others on
similar journey and with similarinterests.
Subscribe, rate and downloadthis episode to ensure you're
always in the loop, and checkout the show notes for Mr May's
information Coming at next week.
(42:56):
On the show, I have a specialguest who will give us some
pointers on how to create apowerful thought leader brand so
you can scale your business andattract your ideal client.
So tune in next Friday.
Until then, always remember inyour journey as a healthcare
professional, always raise thescript on health, because
together we can bring healthcareto higher levels.
(43:17):
Have a great day.
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