October 1, 2024 • 24 mins
Intrepid author and explorer Michael Finkel lived as an expat in the South of France and skied down the slopes of Mount Kilimanjaro. His tales from Iran, China, the Congo and around the world offer challenging perspectives on how travel can shape our worldview.
From the harsh realities of crab fishing in the Bering Sea to the complexities of war as a combat journalist in Afghanistan, he tells of resilience and unexpected kindness amidst adversity. The convo shifts to appreciation for Italy's vibrant cuisine and culture, drawing comparisons with life in France, and Mike shares tips on coping with jet lag from his recent adventures in Japan.
We discuss conflicted regions, from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the ethical dilemmas surrounding animal poaching in Central Africa. Michael's trek across the Sahara, and his encounters with natural wonders like the Northern Lights and Congo's active volcanoes remind us of the raw beauty and complexity of our planet.
We wrap up with Michael’s transformative experience at a 10-day meditation retreat in India, showing the power of introspection and resilience. This exciting, enriching episode is filled with adventures that expand your horizons.
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Michael Finkel is a journalist and memoirist who has written the books True Story: Murder, Memoir, Mea Culpa; The Stranger in the Woods: The Extraordinary Story of the Last True Hermit; and The Art Thief: A True Story of Love, Crime, and a Dangerous Obsession.
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Podcast host Lea Lane has traveled to over 100 countries, and has written nine books, including the award-winning Places I Remember (Kirkus Reviews star rating, and 'one of the top 100 Indie books of the year'). She has contributed to many guidebooks and has written thousands of travel articles.
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Our award-winning travel podcast, Places I Remember with Lea Lane, has dropped over 100 travel episodes! New podcast episodes drop on the first Tuesday of the month, on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you listen.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lea Lane (00:00):
On Places I Remember, we really enjoy interviewing
adventure travelers.
A few examples (00:04):
On episode 21, high-altitude climber Jim
Davidson describes summitingMount Everest and dealing with
an earthquake on the mountain.
On episode 42, we talked withDeanne Birch who moved to a
remote Inuit village above theArctic Circle.
On episode 54, Sandra Smithshared about learning to sail at
43, and heading into thePacific through storms and
(00:27):
challenges, often alone.
On episode 67, conservationistPaul Sosigzuski described quests
in the jungles of Borneo, Laosand other exotic destinations,
and a search for a mysteriouswhite elephant.
On this episode we're talking toanother great adventurer,
Michael Finkel, one of thefortunate people who's known
(00:48):
what he's wanted to do all hislife.
In a journal he kept at age 10,Mike noted that he wanted to be
a writer when he grew up, andhis second choice, he admits,
was mad scientist.
And a writer he has become.
Michael has reported from over50 countries, with several
best-selling books and countlessarticles in major publications.
His newest book is the ArtThief about Stefan Breitweiser,
(01:12):
probably the most prolific artthief of all time.
Welcome, Mike, to Places IRemember.
Mike Finkel (01:18):
I'm so honored to be here.
Thanks, Lea.
Lea Lane (01:21):
Well, you moved to France and got to know Stefan
Breitweiser quite well.
Was that why you moved there?
Mike Finkel (01:27):
No, I moved to France for the experience.
I had three children inelementary school and both my
wife and I agreed that beingable to speak a second language
really fluently is a great giftand opens up your mind, and
maybe that was the reason.
Another culture, anotherlanguage.
So we moved from the mountainsof Montana to the South of
(01:49):
France, and that was in 2014 andwe lived in the South of France
full-time for seven years.
Lea Lane (01:55):
What did you find being an expat?
What was the thing thatsurprised you?
Mike Finkel (01:59):
I love the fact that you have a podcast
completely dedicated to travel,and I feel like travel itself is
partially a mindset, partiallysomething real.
I feel like I could go to7-Eleven, a mile from my house
and consider that a trip, and Icould go to the middle of
France, and in the same way.
So when you ask what is it liketo be an expat, I have this
funny sort of feeling.
I've always traveled.
(02:20):
My parents didn't get to travelwhen they were growing up.
As soon as they had childrenthey started traveling.
So it was funny.
I feel like my parents werealso sort of wide-eyed,
inexperienced travelers and Igrew up with this.
Let's figure it out.
But I also have this funnyfeeling that I don't actually
feel like I'm traveling or anexpat very often.
I feel that I am always on myhome planet.
(02:44):
Therefore, I'm always home.
Yes, of course, as soon as Iopened my mouth in France,
people knew that I wasn't fromFrance.
I guess maybe the mostdifficult thing about being an
expat is that you do feel thatthere is a little bit more
people sort of looking at you.
That's a common thing when youtravel.
Sometimes it can be a littlebit exhausting.
I think speaking anotherlanguage is a little tiring,
(03:05):
especially if you're not fluentin it and you have to work at it
.
And you know I like to be wittyat a dinner party and if it's a
dinner party in French, I don'twant to be less witty.
Lea Lane (03:13):
It'll sound better in French.
Mike Finkel (03:16):
Tiring, but also, sort of, like I said, literally
going to the local boulangerieand making small talk with a
woman working there felt like asmall journey unto itself.
So if you like the frisson andexcitement of traveling it's
sort of constant when you're anexpat.
Even I remember having likeconferences with the school
teachers, of course all inFrench, and even the smallest
(03:37):
things were like semi-struggle,semi-adventure.
If you have the right mindset,then you're going to thrive on
that, and if you're the type ofperson who is more of a homebody
then that might not be the mostcomfortable situation for you,
but luckily I am the formercategory.
Lea Lane (03:51):
You are Well.
you started as a ski writer andyou've skied all over the world
.
What are some of your favoriteski adventures or memories?
Mike Finkel (04:00):
Yes, I was a ski r and I skied all over the world,
but really I just thought of myskis as a giant set of skeleton
keys that opened doors all overthe world.
I think my ski magazine editormight not be happy to hear this,
but 99% of the reason why Iskied all over the world had
nothing to do with skiing.
It was just an excuse to gosomewhere.
Lea Lane (04:17):
I know that.
Mike Finkel (04:18):
Because I was a 22-year-old kid without a lot of
cash, if someone's going to buyme a plane ticket.
So yes, in terms of skiing, ohmy gosh.
I skied off the summit of MountKilimanjaro.
I put my skis in the back ofsomeone's house and traveled in
Tanzania.
I skied in Iran, where theslopes were divided between
men's slopes and women's slopes,but really I put my skis in a
locker and traveled through Iran.
(04:40):
I skied one of the earliest skislopes to open in China, but I
also spent five more weekstraveling through China, so I
used my pair of skis as a verybulky piece of baggage, but
really it was just a way to openup other cultures.
Lea Lane (04:55):
Like a business trip.
A lot of business travelers dothat.
They go on business and it's anexcuse to see the world, which
is very good.
And some business travelersdon't do that.
They just go for business anddon't add that time, and it's a
shame.
Mike Finkel (05:05):
I always acknowledge how fortunate I am
and, again, I totally understandif some people are wired
differently.
In fact, if everyone was thesame type of traveler, I would
be disappointed if everyonetraveled like me, because I do
like the fact that it makes itrelatively easy to get off the
beaten path.
If you're uncomfortable and allyou like to eat is pizza, then
I understand not wanting totravel in China.
Lea Lane (05:25):
I would go to Naples, but yeah, Anyway, let's focus
today on some of your traveladventures and memorable
destinations.
You gave me a list.
I mean, this is just a startingpoint.
I'm just going to.
How about Alaska?
Mike Finkel (05:37):
So I spent about 20 years of my life before I moved
to France living in Montana.
I really love the mountains andI'm a person who loves winter,
which is probably the leastpopular season.
Also, I mentioned that I liketo get off the beaten path, so
maybe I like to get off thebeaten season living in Montana.
We used to refer to the rest ofthe United States as "the lower
47.
(05:59):
(Never heard that.
Okay, y next door neighbor said if
you really like winter, you liketo experience the mountains,
then you're basically living inAAA baseball here in Montana.
If you want to see what it'sreally like, go to Alaska.
Travel to Alaska probably myfirst time.
I was 22 years old and it blewmy mind the scales, the scope
of it all and I probably wentto Alaska 10 different times and
(06:21):
I'd say by far my mostmemorable experience.
Now, when I talk about travel,sometimes I have this funny
little thing in my mind which iscalled the absolute value of
experience, meaning what's yourrichest memories, what's the
best trips?
Is the one that affected youthe most.
Do you come back in your mostpowerfully move?
Now, sometimes anextraordinarily positive
(06:41):
experience.
of course that's amazing, Butalso an extraordinarily negative
experience is extremelypowerful.
Lea Lane (06:49):
(They make the best stories afterwards.
Mike Finkel (06:51):
No doubt.
This is way before World's MostDangerous Catch.
I got a job on a fishing boat.
Your son knows all about this,Lea.
You did not mention that I havebeen friends with Randall since
we were teenagers, literally.
Lea Lane (07:05):
I actually met you once, when you were roommates C
way back.
Mike Finkel (07:09):
Oh yeah, of course.
Lea Lane (07:09):
For a minute.
Mike Finkel (07:11):
Yeah, I got a job on a crab fishing boat in the
Bering Sea in Alaska in Januaryin which I worked no
exaggeration 20 hours a day forseveral weeks, hard physical
labor, one of the absolute worstexperiences of my life, but yet
it brought me to the limitsphysically, mentally,
(07:31):
psychologically.
And I got paid.
I got 2% of the catch.
I literally went and worked ona boat and my proudest moment
was after we did a completeseason of a paleo, known as snow
crab in restaurants.
The captain of the ship said,Mike, I'd have you back for
another season and I said, no,thank you, I got very soft hands
.
I'm a writer.
To this day, I mentally patmyself on the back, thinking I
(07:54):
worked an extremely ruggedphysical job and was actually
invited back rather than fired,bu.
I worked on the marine vessel,the MV Notorious, chartered out
of Iceland.
This was not any sort ofdispensation for being a
journalist, and that was my mostmemorable.
This is way before that TV showcame out.
I'll never forget theexperience, and I think neither
will my lower back.
Lea Lane (08:15):
Well, you've tested your limits there and came
through.
Proud of you.
What about Afghanistan?
Mike Finkel (08:21):
First time I went to Afghanistan was about three
weeks after September 11th.
I had a few years where Iworked as a combat journalist,
interested in the reasons whypeople would kill each other.
I couldn't consider that anysort of travel destination, So I
was in Afghanistan from October2001 for the better part of six
months.
At the time there were no ATMsor credit cards, except that I
(08:42):
think I came in with $10,000stuck in my belt, in the soles
of my shoes, and I traveled witha photographer and experienced
what it was like to exist in themiddle of a very undefined war:
the Northern Alliance versusthe Taliban.
There were a lot of US soldiersaround.
I was not embedded in themilitary, like other journalists
were.
(09:02):
I had fascinating experiencesin a country where there were no
hotels, so you had to findsomeone who was willing to put
you up.
So many memories from that.
Lea Lane (09:10):
What did you learn about yourself there?
Mike Finkel (09:12):
I think I'm learning about myself on a daily
basis, being non-embedded andspending a lot of time with
Taliban soldiers, people thatwere literally trying to kill
Americans.
I think what I learned most isthat, first of all, my theory of
humanity, which has beenunchanged for 30 years of
constant travel, is that 99.9%of us are really good people at
(09:33):
heart, that the world isactually not a dangerous place,
and I think the more people whotravel will tell you both of
those things.
Almost everyone is kind andalmost everywhere is safe,
including Afghanistan.
n the middle of a war, what dothey say?
One drop of poison.
ou have to spill out the wholegallon of milk, And so that's
the real reason why there's anytrouble in the world at all, is
very tiny percentage of people,and so the same holds with
(09:56):
Afghanistan.
Almost everyone I met wasbeautiful, fed me, there was no
restaurants, really put me up,and I think what I learned
mostly is that you are a productof your upbringing.
If I had been born in a certainpart of Afghanistan and went to
a madrasa and was exposed tothe learning, I might have
fought against the United Statesas well, and so open-mindedness
(10:16):
and understanding of one'sjourney through life was really
the thing that most struck meabout my travels in Afghanistan.
Like, oh, don't you hate thisperson who's fighting with the
Taliban?
Well, no, I don't actually.
And there are terrible peoplein this world and I have
encountered some of them,unfortunately, even like a
Taliban soldier firing on USsoldiers.
nd And I don't care how outrethis sounds-- i not sounds
(10:38):
is not necessarily a bad persononce you get to know them.
Lea Lane (10:42):
There are many great movies with that theme, many
World War I, World War II movieswhere you see that.
But you've experienced it.
Mike Finkel (10:50):
Right.
Lea Lane (10:50):
How about Italy?
Tell us about it, experiencedit.
So I lived in France, as Imentioned, for seven years, and
the thing that rankled theFrench people the most in my
time in France, and especiallyas I got to speak the language
better and realize that I couldbe just as jocular in French as
I can be in English, is sayinghow much I loved the cuisine in
Italy more than France.
(11:11):
to be honest with you.
So we lived a two hour drivefrom the Italian border and all
I thought about most of my timeliving in France was how can I
get to Italy again.
Funny, when you live in Europe,you know it's like going to
another state in the UnitedStates, how we would sometimes
like let's go to dinner in Italy.
It is a cliche, but I will eatin any corner restaurants in
Italy and this is one of thosethings where sometimes the
(11:34):
cliched travel is also the trulybeautiful, like the Amalfi
Coast in Italy, the I Terre, thetiny villages that like, i you
have not been to the west coastof Italy, it's almost like a
dream, and yet it's also realand they're not trying to make
it set up for tourists.
Did you know?
I wrote guidebooks on theAmalfi Coast and I had to go
(11:54):
back to update them all the time.
What a terrible thing.
Of course, yeah, that was myfavorite part of it.
Mike Finkel (12:01):
And speaking of guidebooks, which I use all the
time, I got back from Japanyesterday.
That's an 11 hour time changefrom where I am.
By the way, 12 hour time changeis the maximum because you're
going one way or another, soalmost maximum.
I have ways of coping with jetlag.
Ignore it A little.
Mind over matter.
If you think it's midnight butit's seven in the morning, don't
(12:22):
go to bed, have breakfast.
Lea Lane (12:24):
I agree, just keep going Just pretend it doesn't
exist, you'll sleep eventually.
Mike Finkel (12:28):
A little mind over body.
Lea Lane (12:30):
Well, you're doing very well with jet lag right now
.
I have to say.
So Japan.
Mike Finkel (12:34):
I just got back less than 24 hours ago, so this
was my third trip to Japan.
It was so reasonably priced.
Oh my goodness, the dollar isstrong.
Unique travel experience for me.
My daughter, my oldest child,just graduated from high school
and it was a father-daughtertrip to Japan, just the two of
us and that was a first for metraveling with my child for nine
(12:55):
days and we ate our way throughJapan.
I have an adventurous eatingdaughter,.
Lea Lane (13:01):
Di I you have blowfish where you could be
poisoned if you weren't.
Mike Finkel (13:04):
We I did not have any.
The funny thing about travel isthis I haven't been to Botswana
.
That's one place I haven't beento.
If I go to Botswana for threeweeks, I'll come back, and now
there's a hundred places Ihaven't been to because there's
little details.
So the more you travel, theless you've seen.
In a funny sort of way, there'sno end to it.
So now I haven't had Fugu, Ihaven't climbed Mount Fuji.
(13:25):
There's like 17 places in Tokyothat were on my list.
Lea Lane (13:28):
Hurry up, hurry up.
Mike Finkel (13:29):
I didn't get to see .
This is not like collecting abaseball card set.
The idea of travel is trulyendless.
The guidebook that you write is.
It starts becoming out of datethe moment you put the card up.
Lea Lane (13:41):
Exactly.
That's why you have to go backand that's why I was so happy
in the Amalfi Coast.
How about Haiti?
You have an amazing story there.
Mike Finkel (13:49):
I have a very soft spot in my heart for Haiti,
which is very close to theUnited States and yet perhaps
the most challenging, mostdifficult country to travel in
in the world.
So right off the coast of Miami.
I've reported from 50 countries.
I've probably been in 100countries.
I do not know of a singlecountry on planet Earth that is
(14:12):
in a more difficult situationthan Haiti, and so if you want
to have your eyes not just open,but ridiculously opened, travel
in Haiti is not for those whohighly regard safety.
Almost everyone is kind andwill treat you well, and I will
never forget.
There's a soundtrack to theStreet of Port-au-Prince that is
(14:33):
etched in my mind Funny sounds.
It's like I remember, like theWorld Cup in South Africa many
years ago, when everyone wasblowing in those strange
trumpets and I still hear thatin my head.
But the soda vendors inPort-au-Prince they have like a
soda opener and they bang itagainst these bottles and
there's hundreds of them goingaround and I think about people
(14:53):
beating on the sides of glassbottles with an opener and
there's really interesting soundthat seemed unique to
Port-au-Prince.
That's a sound memory.
Lea Lane (15:02):
Your trip on the boat is something you've written
about.
Mike Finkel (15:06):
I'm a journalist.
This is not Euro.
Disney the Eiffel Tower and geton a Haitian refugee boat, but
it's' an unbelievable story.
I did document the strugglesthat some people are willing to
take to get to the United States.
I did purchase a seat on arefugee boat.
It was a 23-foot long boat madecompletely out of wood.
Five people could comfortablyfit on a 23-foot boat and there
(15:28):
were 46 of us.
43 of us were crammed in a dankhole.
Lea, I got to tell you of allthe experiences I've had
traveling, that one.
I was, no kidding concernedabout its potentially dire
outcome, and the boat actuallywas foundering in the water and
was sinking.
(15:48):
We were actually rescued by theUnited States Coast Guard.
In my life, I've been rescuedby United States military forces
two separate times.
When some people say to asoldier thank you for your
service, the United Statesmilitary has saved my life in
Haiti and also in Afghanistan.
I don't want to make things anydarker, but there was a very
terrible incident in which aroom in which I was staying with
(16:10):
about 20 other journalists wasattacked and two people were
killed in the same room that Iwas sleeping in and I dove out a
window and ran to a US Armybase.
They took me in For peoplelistening.
You're not supposed to betaking notes here and say, oh
well, let's do this and this.
This is my to-do list.
Lea Lane (16:24):
No, this is not a cruise.
This is something that'sinteresting to hear and we learn
from it and admire that youhave the capacity to cover all
of these and to keep your spirit, and it's heartwarming to hear
that you feel that people aregood because there is so much.
You covered conflicts in Israel.
I know as well.
Mike Finkel (16:44):
This was 2000, during the second Intifada, and
both the sadness, current eventssort of replaying in my mind.
The more things change, themore they stay the same.
You could literally read in theBible about the Israelites and
the Philistines, and now youhave the Israelis and the
Palestinians.
You know it's only a conflictthat's been going on for a
couple of thousand years.
And once again, I'm Jewish andI lived in Gaza City for more
(17:08):
than a month without leaving theconfines of the Gaza Strip and
again was treated by most peopleextremely kindly.
People like to share theirstories.
Sometimes I'm surprised thatthings haven't gone completely
sideways.
When you said to me you thinkthat most people are good, I
don't just think it, I actuallyknow it.
Lea Lane (17:26):
Good to hear.
Mike Finkel (17:27):
It would take a lot to disabuse me of that notion.
It's just the exceptions thatget a lot of press.
Lea Lane (17:33):
Well, here's an exception.
In Central Africa, youdocumented the impact of animal
poachers.
What's your feeling there interms of good?
Mike Finkel (17:41):
I don't know if you've ever been really hungry.
Desperate situations you don'treally know what you would do.
Lea Lane (17:46):
Especially with a family.
Mike Finkel (17:47):
Yeah, again, this is maybe the journalist in me or
the human in me, but I try notto judge.
Now, yes, I think that someonewho's going to kill an elephant
for a hunk of ivory is in no wayperforming anything good.
But I know bankers who makemoney off of other people's
bankruptcies.
I don't think that'sparticularly good either.
That's not only legal, butcelebrated.
(18:09):
The world is all shades of gray.
Lea Lane (18:11):
You crossed the Sahara with migrant workers.
Mike Finkel (18:14):
All I remember is I jumped on the back of a truck
that was crossing the Sahara forthree days.
It was fascinating A couple ofthings.
We were mostly Muslim migrantsand so the truck would stop five
times a day so everyone couldpray and I would crawl
underneath the truck to sit inthe shade.
But the thing I remember mostabout that trip there was maybe
75 people on a pretty big dumptruck.
(18:35):
We were all crammed in and fordinners amazing there was this
huge, birdbath-sized bowl of thegroup of maybe 20 people I was
closest with.
Each group of 20 had this hugebowl and everyone would dig
around in their belongings Like,oh, I found a can . tuna fish
or I had some sardines.
We would all dump it in thisbowl, mix it together and eat
with our left hands and we wouldall share from this communal
(18:58):
bowl whatever we could come upwith.
I've eaten at someMichelin-starred restaurants,
but I've probably not had anymore memorable meals than
sharing a bowl with 19 of myfavorite migrant workers none
of us who shared a languageputting our hands into the same
bowl in the middle of theSahara Desert in a scorching day
.
Lea Lane (19:17):
In the Congo.
You work for NationalGeographic magazine.
You spent time with fieldscientists on a volcano.
Anything there to reflect on?
Mike Finkel (19:26):
We've spoken a lot about worked humans and my
encounters with them, but I alsoyou know I'm speaking to you
from Park City.
I mentioned that I lived inBozeman, Montana.
Let's not forget the amazingwonders of the natural world,
which also I mean.
I love being in crowded places,conflicts To write, to work.
I need to be in a place that'squiet and peaceful.
Some of the most amazing thingsI've ever seen in my life
(19:48):
include the Northern Lights,full solar eclipse I just saw
the one in April.
I had great fortune to descendinto an active volcano, to see a
lake of lava, and it alwaysmakes me feel, as does just
simply laying on my back on aclear night when I see the stars
.
It makes me feel bothextraordinarily significant and
(20:10):
completely insignificant and Ido love that tug of war in my
mind and I think the wordsublime when it comes to
something that's overwhelming inits beauty and its nature and
you feel forces so much greaterthan you that, while seeing
Nyiragongo, one of the world'smost active volcanoes, which is
(20:30):
in the Democratic Republic ofthe Congo, Wow.
Lea Lane (20:33):
Well, let me just ask you -the name of the podcast is
Places.
I Remember.
You've given us many memorableexperiences.
Mike Finkel (20:40):
I think I talked to you about my absolute value of
travel theory.
Extremes of emotion or feelingsare what I seek.
I'm going to end with what wasthe worst trip of my life,
therefore perhaps the mostprofound.
Like you mentioned earlier inthis wonderful free-ranging
conversation, I've been inAfghanistan, Haiti, covered
(21:01):
conflicts in the Middle East,tried to climb an 8,000-meter
peak in Tibet, been tortured inmany ways.
You probably can gather lots ofenergy and I'm a journalist, so
therefore I am an outgoingperson.
I decided that I would do a10-day silent meditation retreat
at the Damagiri MeditationCenter in India.
(21:23):
10 days of not just silence.
You couldn't even make eyecontact with anyone.
You couldn't bring anything toread, and I am an invertebrate
reader.
You couldn't bring a pen or apencil.
I've kept a journal for 30years.
10 days that included hours andhours a day of sitting on a
cushion doing guided meditation.
I cannot tell you the depth ofhow difficult that was for me.
(21:45):
It was the most.
I hated it in a level that wasso deep and yet there was no
chains attaching me.
I could have left at any moment, and that also made it harder.
If I was literally locked up,it might've been easier.
Within 24 hours, every fiber ofmy being wanted to run out of
the Dhamma Giri meditationcenter.
I managed to stay completelysilent, without any distractions
(22:07):
, for 240 hours, for 10 of themost difficult days of my life.
Some people thought it was theabsolutely most fulfilling
experience, and I will neverforget the difficulty of that.
To explore the outer world isamazing, and to explore the
inner world is no less vast.
If you are at all interested inchallenging yourself, a
(22:29):
Vipassana meditation, 10 days,and here's what I love about
Vipassana (22:32):
meditation the cost of a 10-day retreat is precisely
zero.
It is such a pure form ofmeditation.
The Buddha himself usedVipassana meditation to achieve
enlightenment.
That's how old it is and it'sso well-respected.
The people that teach thesecourses, which are all around
the world, do it for free.
The trip that cost me nothing,in which the entire itinerary
(22:54):
was do nothing, was the absolutemost challenging trip of my
life.
Lea Lane (22:58):
Wow.
Well, you do lead an amazinglife, and you're a young man
relatively.
You have a lot left to go, andI can only imagine where wisdom
will add to this as you getolder.
It's just incredible to hear it, let alone to think of living
it.
Your bestselling, award-winningbook, The Art Thief, is a great
read, and it will be coming outas a movie, correct?
Mike Finkel (23:21):
I speak better French than I speak Los Angeles.
It's been an option to themovies let's see.
Okay, I recommend it.
Lea Lane (23:30):
Okay, I recommend it.
I look forward to seeing it,and reading whatever you write
next.
You're a great journalist.
Keep on traveling, living lifeto the fullest.
You inspire us to push our ownlimits.
Thank you so much, Mike Finkel.
Mike Finkel (23:42):
My absolute pleasure, thank you.
On Places I Remember, we really enjoy interviewing
adventure travelers.
A few examples (00:04):
On episode 21, high-altitude climber Jim
Davidson describes summitingMount Everest and dealing with
an earthquake on the mountain.
On episode 42, we talked withDeanne Birch who moved to a
remote Inuit village above theArctic Circle.
On episode 54, Sandra Smithshared about learning to sail at
43, and heading into thePacific through storms and
(00:27):
challenges, often alone.
On episode 67, conservationistPaul Sosigzuski described quests
in the jungles of Borneo, Laosand other exotic destinations,
and a search for a mysteriouswhite elephant.
On this episode we're talking toanother great adventurer,
Michael Finkel, one of thefortunate people who's known
(00:48):
what he's wanted to do all hislife.
In a journal he kept at age 10,Mike noted that he wanted to be
a writer when he grew up, andhis second choice, he admits,
was mad scientist.
And a writer he has become.
Michael has reported from over50 countries, with several
best-selling books and countlessarticles in major publications.
His newest book is the ArtThief about Stefan Breitweiser,
(01:12):
probably the most prolific artthief of all time.
Welcome, Mike, to Places IRemember.
Mike Finkel (01:18):
I'm so honored to be here.
Thanks, Lea.
Lea Lane (01:21):
Well, you moved to France and got to know Stefan
Breitweiser quite well.
Was that why you moved there?
Mike Finkel (01:27):
No, I moved to France for the experience.
I had three children inelementary school and both my
wife and I agreed that beingable to speak a second language
really fluently is a great giftand opens up your mind, and
maybe that was the reason.
Another culture, anotherlanguage.
So we moved from the mountainsof Montana to the South of
(01:49):
France, and that was in 2014 andwe lived in the South of France
full-time for seven years.
Lea Lane (01:55):
What did you find being an expat?
What was the thing thatsurprised you?
Mike Finkel (01:59):
I love the fact that you have a podcast
completely dedicated to travel,and I feel like travel itself is
partially a mindset, partiallysomething real.
I feel like I could go to7-Eleven, a mile from my house
and consider that a trip, and Icould go to the middle of
France, and in the same way.
So when you ask what is it liketo be an expat, I have this
funny sort of feeling.
I've always traveled.
(02:20):
My parents didn't get to travelwhen they were growing up.
As soon as they had childrenthey started traveling.
So it was funny.
I feel like my parents werealso sort of wide-eyed,
inexperienced travelers and Igrew up with this.
Let's figure it out.
But I also have this funnyfeeling that I don't actually
feel like I'm traveling or anexpat very often.
I feel that I am always on myhome planet.
(02:44):
Therefore, I'm always home.
Yes, of course, as soon as Iopened my mouth in France,
people knew that I wasn't fromFrance.
I guess maybe the mostdifficult thing about being an
expat is that you do feel thatthere is a little bit more
people sort of looking at you.
That's a common thing when youtravel.
Sometimes it can be a littlebit exhausting.
I think speaking anotherlanguage is a little tiring,
(03:05):
especially if you're not fluentin it and you have to work at it
.
And you know I like to be wittyat a dinner party and if it's a
dinner party in French, I don'twant to be less witty.
Lea Lane (03:13):
It'll sound better in French.
Mike Finkel (03:16):
Tiring, but also, sort of, like I said, literally
going to the local boulangerieand making small talk with a
woman working there felt like asmall journey unto itself.
So if you like the frisson andexcitement of traveling it's
sort of constant when you're anexpat.
Even I remember having likeconferences with the school
teachers, of course all inFrench, and even the smallest
(03:37):
things were like semi-struggle,semi-adventure.
If you have the right mindset,then you're going to thrive on
that, and if you're the type ofperson who is more of a homebody
then that might not be the mostcomfortable situation for you,
but luckily I am the formercategory.
Lea Lane (03:51):
You are Well.
you started as a ski writer andyou've skied all over the world
.
What are some of your favoriteski adventures or memories?
Mike Finkel (04:00):
Yes, I was a ski r and I skied all over the world,
but really I just thought of myskis as a giant set of skeleton
keys that opened doors all overthe world.
I think my ski magazine editormight not be happy to hear this,
but 99% of the reason why Iskied all over the world had
nothing to do with skiing.
It was just an excuse to gosomewhere.
Lea Lane (04:17):
I know that.
Mike Finkel (04:18):
Because I was a 22-year-old kid without a lot of
cash, if someone's going to buyme a plane ticket.
So yes, in terms of skiing, ohmy gosh.
I skied off the summit of MountKilimanjaro.
I put my skis in the back ofsomeone's house and traveled in
Tanzania.
I skied in Iran, where theslopes were divided between
men's slopes and women's slopes,but really I put my skis in a
locker and traveled through Iran.
(04:40):
I skied one of the earliest skislopes to open in China, but I
also spent five more weekstraveling through China, so I
used my pair of skis as a verybulky piece of baggage, but
really it was just a way to openup other cultures.
Lea Lane (04:55):
Like a business trip.
A lot of business travelers dothat.
They go on business and it's anexcuse to see the world, which
is very good.
And some business travelersdon't do that.
They just go for business anddon't add that time, and it's a
shame.
Mike Finkel (05:05):
I always acknowledge how fortunate I am
and, again, I totally understandif some people are wired
differently.
In fact, if everyone was thesame type of traveler, I would
be disappointed if everyonetraveled like me, because I do
like the fact that it makes itrelatively easy to get off the
beaten path.
If you're uncomfortable and allyou like to eat is pizza, then
I understand not wanting totravel in China.
Lea Lane (05:25):
I would go to Naples, but yeah, Anyway, let's focus
today on some of your traveladventures and memorable
destinations.
You gave me a list.
I mean, this is just a startingpoint.
I'm just going to.
How about Alaska?
Mike Finkel (05:37):
So I spent about 20 years of my life before I moved
to France living in Montana.
I really love the mountains andI'm a person who loves winter,
which is probably the leastpopular season.
Also, I mentioned that I liketo get off the beaten path, so
maybe I like to get off thebeaten season living in Montana.
We used to refer to the rest ofthe United States as "the lower
47.
(05:59):
(Never heard that.
Okay, y next door neighbor said if
you really like winter, you liketo experience the mountains,
then you're basically living inAAA baseball here in Montana.
If you want to see what it'sreally like, go to Alaska.
Travel to Alaska probably myfirst time.
I was 22 years old and it blewmy mind the scales, the scope
of it all and I probably wentto Alaska 10 different times and
(06:21):
I'd say by far my mostmemorable experience.
Now, when I talk about travel,sometimes I have this funny
little thing in my mind which iscalled the absolute value of
experience, meaning what's yourrichest memories, what's the
best trips?
Is the one that affected youthe most.
Do you come back in your mostpowerfully move?
Now, sometimes anextraordinarily positive
(06:41):
experience.
of course that's amazing, Butalso an extraordinarily negative
experience is extremelypowerful.
Lea Lane (06:49):
(They make the best stories afterwards.
Mike Finkel (06:51):
No doubt.
This is way before World's MostDangerous Catch.
I got a job on a fishing boat.
Your son knows all about this,Lea.
You did not mention that I havebeen friends with Randall since
we were teenagers, literally.
Lea Lane (07:05):
I actually met you once, when you were roommates C
way back.
Mike Finkel (07:09):
Oh yeah, of course.
Lea Lane (07:09):
For a minute.
Mike Finkel (07:11):
Yeah, I got a job on a crab fishing boat in the
Bering Sea in Alaska in Januaryin which I worked no
exaggeration 20 hours a day forseveral weeks, hard physical
labor, one of the absolute worstexperiences of my life, but yet
it brought me to the limitsphysically, mentally,
(07:31):
psychologically.
And I got paid.
I got 2% of the catch.
I literally went and worked ona boat and my proudest moment
was after we did a completeseason of a paleo, known as snow
crab in restaurants.
The captain of the ship said,Mike, I'd have you back for
another season and I said, no,thank you, I got very soft hands
.
I'm a writer.
To this day, I mentally patmyself on the back, thinking I
(07:54):
worked an extremely ruggedphysical job and was actually
invited back rather than fired,bu.
I worked on the marine vessel,the MV Notorious, chartered out
of Iceland.
This was not any sort ofdispensation for being a
journalist, and that was my mostmemorable.
This is way before that TV showcame out.
I'll never forget theexperience, and I think neither
will my lower back.
Lea Lane (08:15):
Well, you've tested your limits there and came
through.
Proud of you.
What about Afghanistan?
Mike Finkel (08:21):
First time I went to Afghanistan was about three
weeks after September 11th.
I had a few years where Iworked as a combat journalist,
interested in the reasons whypeople would kill each other.
I couldn't consider that anysort of travel destination, So I
was in Afghanistan from October2001 for the better part of six
months.
At the time there were no ATMsor credit cards, except that I
(08:42):
think I came in with $10,000stuck in my belt, in the soles
of my shoes, and I traveled witha photographer and experienced
what it was like to exist in themiddle of a very undefined war:
the Northern Alliance versusthe Taliban.
There were a lot of US soldiersaround.
I was not embedded in themilitary, like other journalists
were.
(09:02):
I had fascinating experiencesin a country where there were no
hotels, so you had to findsomeone who was willing to put
you up.
So many memories from that.
Lea Lane (09:10):
What did you learn about yourself there?
Mike Finkel (09:12):
I think I'm learning about myself on a daily
basis, being non-embedded andspending a lot of time with
Taliban soldiers, people thatwere literally trying to kill
Americans.
I think what I learned most isthat, first of all, my theory of
humanity, which has beenunchanged for 30 years of
constant travel, is that 99.9%of us are really good people at
(09:33):
heart, that the world isactually not a dangerous place,
and I think the more people whotravel will tell you both of
those things.
Almost everyone is kind andalmost everywhere is safe,
including Afghanistan.
n the middle of a war, what dothey say?
One drop of poison.
ou have to spill out the wholegallon of milk, And so that's
the real reason why there's anytrouble in the world at all, is
very tiny percentage of people,and so the same holds with
(09:56):
Afghanistan.
Almost everyone I met wasbeautiful, fed me, there was no
restaurants, really put me up,and I think what I learned
mostly is that you are a productof your upbringing.
If I had been born in a certainpart of Afghanistan and went to
a madrasa and was exposed tothe learning, I might have
fought against the United Statesas well, and so open-mindedness
(10:16):
and understanding of one'sjourney through life was really
the thing that most struck meabout my travels in Afghanistan.
Like, oh, don't you hate thisperson who's fighting with the
Taliban?
Well, no, I don't actually.
And there are terrible peoplein this world and I have
encountered some of them,unfortunately, even like a
Taliban soldier firing on USsoldiers.
nd And I don't care how outrethis sounds-- i not sounds
(10:38):
is not necessarily a bad persononce you get to know them.
Lea Lane (10:42):
There are many great movies with that theme, many
World War I, World War II movieswhere you see that.
But you've experienced it.
Mike Finkel (10:50):
Right.
Lea Lane (10:50):
How about Italy?
Tell us about it, experiencedit.
So I lived in France, as Imentioned, for seven years, and
the thing that rankled theFrench people the most in my
time in France, and especiallyas I got to speak the language
better and realize that I couldbe just as jocular in French as
I can be in English, is sayinghow much I loved the cuisine in
Italy more than France.
(11:11):
to be honest with you.
So we lived a two hour drivefrom the Italian border and all
I thought about most of my timeliving in France was how can I
get to Italy again.
Funny, when you live in Europe,you know it's like going to
another state in the UnitedStates, how we would sometimes
like let's go to dinner in Italy.
It is a cliche, but I will eatin any corner restaurants in
Italy and this is one of thosethings where sometimes the
(11:34):
cliched travel is also the trulybeautiful, like the Amalfi
Coast in Italy, the I Terre, thetiny villages that like, i you
have not been to the west coastof Italy, it's almost like a
dream, and yet it's also realand they're not trying to make
it set up for tourists.
Did you know?
I wrote guidebooks on theAmalfi Coast and I had to go
(11:54):
back to update them all the time.
What a terrible thing.
Of course, yeah, that was myfavorite part of it.
Mike Finkel (12:01):
And speaking of guidebooks, which I use all the
time, I got back from Japanyesterday.
That's an 11 hour time changefrom where I am.
By the way, 12 hour time changeis the maximum because you're
going one way or another, soalmost maximum.
I have ways of coping with jetlag.
Ignore it A little.
Mind over matter.
If you think it's midnight butit's seven in the morning, don't
(12:22):
go to bed, have breakfast.
Lea Lane (12:24):
I agree, just keep going Just pretend it doesn't
exist, you'll sleep eventually.
Mike Finkel (12:28):
A little mind over body.
Lea Lane (12:30):
Well, you're doing very well with jet lag right now
.
I have to say.
So Japan.
Mike Finkel (12:34):
I just got back less than 24 hours ago, so this
was my third trip to Japan.
It was so reasonably priced.
Oh my goodness, the dollar isstrong.
Unique travel experience for me.
My daughter, my oldest child,just graduated from high school
and it was a father-daughtertrip to Japan, just the two of
us and that was a first for metraveling with my child for nine
(12:55):
days and we ate our way throughJapan.
I have an adventurous eatingdaughter,.
Lea Lane (13:01):
Di I you have blowfish where you could be
poisoned if you weren't.
Mike Finkel (13:04):
We I did not have any.
The funny thing about travel isthis I haven't been to Botswana
.
That's one place I haven't beento.
If I go to Botswana for threeweeks, I'll come back, and now
there's a hundred places Ihaven't been to because there's
little details.
So the more you travel, theless you've seen.
In a funny sort of way, there'sno end to it.
So now I haven't had Fugu, Ihaven't climbed Mount Fuji.
(13:25):
There's like 17 places in Tokyothat were on my list.
Lea Lane (13:28):
Hurry up, hurry up.
Mike Finkel (13:29):
I didn't get to see .
This is not like collecting abaseball card set.
The idea of travel is trulyendless.
The guidebook that you write is.
It starts becoming out of datethe moment you put the card up.
Lea Lane (13:41):
Exactly.
That's why you have to go backand that's why I was so happy
in the Amalfi Coast.
How about Haiti?
You have an amazing story there.
Mike Finkel (13:49):
I have a very soft spot in my heart for Haiti,
which is very close to theUnited States and yet perhaps
the most challenging, mostdifficult country to travel in
in the world.
So right off the coast of Miami.
I've reported from 50 countries.
I've probably been in 100countries.
I do not know of a singlecountry on planet Earth that is
(14:12):
in a more difficult situationthan Haiti, and so if you want
to have your eyes not just open,but ridiculously opened, travel
in Haiti is not for those whohighly regard safety.
Almost everyone is kind andwill treat you well, and I will
never forget.
There's a soundtrack to theStreet of Port-au-Prince that is
(14:33):
etched in my mind Funny sounds.
It's like I remember, like theWorld Cup in South Africa many
years ago, when everyone wasblowing in those strange
trumpets and I still hear thatin my head.
But the soda vendors inPort-au-Prince they have like a
soda opener and they bang itagainst these bottles and
there's hundreds of them goingaround and I think about people
(14:53):
beating on the sides of glassbottles with an opener and
there's really interesting soundthat seemed unique to
Port-au-Prince.
That's a sound memory.
Lea Lane (15:02):
Your trip on the boat is something you've written
about.
Mike Finkel (15:06):
I'm a journalist.
This is not Euro.
Disney the Eiffel Tower and geton a Haitian refugee boat, but
it's' an unbelievable story.
I did document the strugglesthat some people are willing to
take to get to the United States.
I did purchase a seat on arefugee boat.
It was a 23-foot long boat madecompletely out of wood.
Five people could comfortablyfit on a 23-foot boat and there
(15:28):
were 46 of us.
43 of us were crammed in a dankhole.
Lea, I got to tell you of allthe experiences I've had
traveling, that one.
I was, no kidding concernedabout its potentially dire
outcome, and the boat actuallywas foundering in the water and
was sinking.
(15:48):
We were actually rescued by theUnited States Coast Guard.
In my life, I've been rescuedby United States military forces
two separate times.
When some people say to asoldier thank you for your
service, the United Statesmilitary has saved my life in
Haiti and also in Afghanistan.
I don't want to make things anydarker, but there was a very
terrible incident in which aroom in which I was staying with
(16:10):
about 20 other journalists wasattacked and two people were
killed in the same room that Iwas sleeping in and I dove out a
window and ran to a US Armybase.
They took me in For peoplelistening.
You're not supposed to betaking notes here and say, oh
well, let's do this and this.
This is my to-do list.
Lea Lane (16:24):
No, this is not a cruise.
This is something that'sinteresting to hear and we learn
from it and admire that youhave the capacity to cover all
of these and to keep your spirit, and it's heartwarming to hear
that you feel that people aregood because there is so much.
You covered conflicts in Israel.
I know as well.
Mike Finkel (16:44):
This was 2000, during the second Intifada, and
both the sadness, current eventssort of replaying in my mind.
The more things change, themore they stay the same.
You could literally read in theBible about the Israelites and
the Philistines, and now youhave the Israelis and the
Palestinians.
You know it's only a conflictthat's been going on for a
couple of thousand years.
And once again, I'm Jewish andI lived in Gaza City for more
(17:08):
than a month without leaving theconfines of the Gaza Strip and
again was treated by most peopleextremely kindly.
People like to share theirstories.
Sometimes I'm surprised thatthings haven't gone completely
sideways.
When you said to me you thinkthat most people are good, I
don't just think it, I actuallyknow it.
Lea Lane (17:26):
Good to hear.
Mike Finkel (17:27):
It would take a lot to disabuse me of that notion.
It's just the exceptions thatget a lot of press.
Lea Lane (17:33):
Well, here's an exception.
In Central Africa, youdocumented the impact of animal
poachers.
What's your feeling there interms of good?
Mike Finkel (17:41):
I don't know if you've ever been really hungry.
Desperate situations you don'treally know what you would do.
Lea Lane (17:46):
Especially with a family.
Mike Finkel (17:47):
Yeah, again, this is maybe the journalist in me or
the human in me, but I try notto judge.
Now, yes, I think that someonewho's going to kill an elephant
for a hunk of ivory is in no wayperforming anything good.
But I know bankers who makemoney off of other people's
bankruptcies.
I don't think that'sparticularly good either.
That's not only legal, butcelebrated.
(18:09):
The world is all shades of gray.
Lea Lane (18:11):
You crossed the Sahara with migrant workers.
Mike Finkel (18:14):
All I remember is I jumped on the back of a truck
that was crossing the Sahara forthree days.
It was fascinating A couple ofthings.
We were mostly Muslim migrantsand so the truck would stop five
times a day so everyone couldpray and I would crawl
underneath the truck to sit inthe shade.
But the thing I remember mostabout that trip there was maybe
75 people on a pretty big dumptruck.
(18:35):
We were all crammed in and fordinners amazing there was this
huge, birdbath-sized bowl of thegroup of maybe 20 people I was
closest with.
Each group of 20 had this hugebowl and everyone would dig
around in their belongings Like,oh, I found a can . tuna fish
or I had some sardines.
We would all dump it in thisbowl, mix it together and eat
with our left hands and we wouldall share from this communal
(18:58):
bowl whatever we could come upwith.
I've eaten at someMichelin-starred restaurants,
but I've probably not had anymore memorable meals than
sharing a bowl with 19 of myfavorite migrant workers none
of us who shared a languageputting our hands into the same
bowl in the middle of theSahara Desert in a scorching day
.
Lea Lane (19:17):
In the Congo.
You work for NationalGeographic magazine.
You spent time with fieldscientists on a volcano.
Anything there to reflect on?
Mike Finkel (19:26):
We've spoken a lot about worked humans and my
encounters with them, but I alsoyou know I'm speaking to you
from Park City.
I mentioned that I lived inBozeman, Montana.
Let's not forget the amazingwonders of the natural world,
which also I mean.
I love being in crowded places,conflicts To write, to work.
I need to be in a place that'squiet and peaceful.
Some of the most amazing thingsI've ever seen in my life
(19:48):
include the Northern Lights,full solar eclipse I just saw
the one in April.
I had great fortune to descendinto an active volcano, to see a
lake of lava, and it alwaysmakes me feel, as does just
simply laying on my back on aclear night when I see the stars
.
It makes me feel bothextraordinarily significant and
(20:10):
completely insignificant and Ido love that tug of war in my
mind and I think the wordsublime when it comes to
something that's overwhelming inits beauty and its nature and
you feel forces so much greaterthan you that, while seeing
Nyiragongo, one of the world'smost active volcanoes, which is
(20:30):
in the Democratic Republic ofthe Congo, Wow.
Lea Lane (20:33):
Well, let me just ask you -the name of the podcast is
Places.
I Remember.
You've given us many memorableexperiences.
Mike Finkel (20:40):
I think I talked to you about my absolute value of
travel theory.
Extremes of emotion or feelingsare what I seek.
I'm going to end with what wasthe worst trip of my life,
therefore perhaps the mostprofound.
Like you mentioned earlier inthis wonderful free-ranging
conversation, I've been inAfghanistan, Haiti, covered
(21:01):
conflicts in the Middle East,tried to climb an 8,000-meter
peak in Tibet, been tortured inmany ways.
You probably can gather lots ofenergy and I'm a journalist, so
therefore I am an outgoingperson.
I decided that I would do a10-day silent meditation retreat
at the Damagiri MeditationCenter in India.
(21:23):
10 days of not just silence.
You couldn't even make eyecontact with anyone.
You couldn't bring anything toread, and I am an invertebrate
reader.
You couldn't bring a pen or apencil.
I've kept a journal for 30years.
10 days that included hours andhours a day of sitting on a
cushion doing guided meditation.
I cannot tell you the depth ofhow difficult that was for me.
(21:45):
It was the most.
I hated it in a level that wasso deep and yet there was no
chains attaching me.
I could have left at any moment, and that also made it harder.
If I was literally locked up,it might've been easier.
Within 24 hours, every fiber ofmy being wanted to run out of
the Dhamma Giri meditationcenter.
I managed to stay completelysilent, without any distractions
(22:07):
, for 240 hours, for 10 of themost difficult days of my life.
Some people thought it was theabsolutely most fulfilling
experience, and I will neverforget the difficulty of that.
To explore the outer world isamazing, and to explore the
inner world is no less vast.
If you are at all interested inchallenging yourself, a
(22:29):
Vipassana meditation, 10 days,and here's what I love about
Vipassana (22:32):
meditation the cost of a 10-day retreat is precisely
zero.
It is such a pure form ofmeditation.
The Buddha himself usedVipassana meditation to achieve
enlightenment.
That's how old it is and it'sso well-respected.
The people that teach thesecourses, which are all around
the world, do it for free.
The trip that cost me nothing,in which the entire itinerary
(22:54):
was do nothing, was the absolutemost challenging trip of my
life.
Lea Lane (22:58):
Wow.
Well, you do lead an amazinglife, and you're a young man
relatively.
You have a lot left to go, andI can only imagine where wisdom
will add to this as you getolder.
It's just incredible to hear it, let alone to think of living
it.
Your bestselling, award-winningbook, The Art Thief, is a great
read, and it will be coming outas a movie, correct?
Mike Finkel (23:21):
I speak better French than I speak Los Angeles.
It's been an option to themovies let's see.
Okay, I recommend it.
Lea Lane (23:30):
Okay, I recommend it.
I look forward to seeing it,and reading whatever you write
next.
You're a great journalist.
Keep on traveling, living lifeto the fullest.
You inspire us to push our ownlimits.
Thank you so much, Mike Finkel.
Mike Finkel (23:42):
My absolute pleasure, thank you.
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