March 4, 2025 • 23 mins
Thatcher Baker Briggs, the founder of Thatcher's Wine in LA, spills the secrets to crafting the ultimate wine vacation, balancing leisurely tastings with relaxation, over the perfect four to five-day getaway. Thatcher offers invaluable tips on wine tasting etiquette, like the art of spitting versus drinking, especially when you're behind the wheel, and emphasizes the importance of pre-arranged transportation in Europe's charming but Uber-less wine regions.
Discover how to navigate the diverse costs of tastings across various regions and get insider advice on dining experiences that will elevate your wine adventure.
Embark on a sensory journey through Europe's most captivating wine regions, starting with the French Riviera and its Provençal allure, then onward to the Champagne region where bubbly meets French fries for an unexpectedly delightful pairing.
Experience Italy's Piedmont region, where medieval towns, stunning landscapes, and exquisite wines like Nebbiolo await. Imagine the aroma of truffles in Alba and the cultural tapestry of Turin. Finally, savor the culinary masterpiece of a paella in the heart of Alicante, Spain, celebrating the joys of European cuisine and the art of wine. Cheers to travel, taste, and the tales that bring them to life!
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Thatcher Baker Briggs is the founder of Thatcher's Wine in LA. He is a sommelier, and a frequent traveler to the great vineyards of Europe.
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Podcast host Lea Lane has traveled to over 100 countries, and has written nine books, including the award-winning Places I Remember (Kirkus Reviews star rating, and 'one of the top 100 Indie books of the year'). She has contributed to many guidebooks and has written thousands of travel articles.
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Our award-winning travel podcast, Places I Remember with Lea Lane, has dropped over 100 travel episodes! New podcast episodes drop on the first Tuesday of the month, on Apple, Spotify, and wherever you listen.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lea Lane (00:01):
Wine regions are some of the loveliest areas in the
world climates where grapesthrive, filled with charming
towns, with farm-to-table foodand, of course, great wine.
Canadian-born Thatcher BakerBriggs is founder of Thatcher's
Wine in LA.
He travels the worlddiscovering wine regions and new
(00:21):
and excellent varietals.
He's just returned from one ofhis European wine trips and has
much to share with us.
Welcome, Thatcher, to Places IRemember.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (00:30):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Lea Lane (00:32):
Great.
Well, I know your journey beganas a restaurant dishwasher at
the age of just 13 and broughtyou to Michelin star restaurants
across the world.
Tell us a bit more of yourexperiences in the culinary
scene and how this turned intoyour deep interest in wine.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (00:47):
I had a passion probably when I was
around nine or 10, and I wasobsessed with cooking and
ingredients and food.
It led me down this path ofchasing my dreams to become a
chef, and I just happened to getan early start on things and
traveled all around Canada andthen wanted to work in the
Michelin star environment.
So I moved to San Francisco andI was at Qua, which was a two
(01:09):
and three Michelin starrestaurant.
I was cooking and tasting wineand, realizing that I don't
really know anything about wine,I wanted to really dive in.
So I started studying and Ijust got hooked.
Then started pursuing mysommelier exam.
I ended up at another threeMichelin star in San Francisco.
Lea Lane (01:27):
Were you the youngest ever course- certified sommelier
?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (01:30):
I wasn't the youngest ever.
I started at 21, which is theearliest you can do it in the US
, and I passed, I think, justafter my 22nd birthday.
Lea Lane (01:40):
So recently you, Thatcher, and your partner
Courtney, combined a relaxingvacation with wine work.
So before we talk about some ofthe regions you explored, let's
talk about what you think makesa great wine vacation.
I know it depends where youvisit, but what do you consider
an ideal length of a wine tour,just from a logistical
standpoint?
(02:00):
How much is too much?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (02:02):
Twenty days is too much.
I will say that I have animport company and so we started
just about four years ago.
We've been trying to find thenext generation winemakers a lot
of time in Europe in drivingand so we do these longer trips.
To be honest, I would neveradvise anybody doing a solely 20
(02:22):
day wine tour, driving about2,000 kilometers, because it's
quite exhausting.
I think that the best amount oftime is somewhere around four
to five days.
I think you want to get to thewine region, take a day to
breathe and just sort of be inthe place, and then you can do
four days of tastings and thenat the end take another day or
(02:43):
two to just relax a little bit.
You do consume a lot of wine,and while you might be at home
drinking a bottle of wine everynight, those afternoon or
morning wine tastings do kind ofwear on you pretty quickly.
Lea Lane (02:56):
Let me ask you about spitting out the wine versus
drinking it.
In terms of driving, how do youmanage that situation?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (03:03):
If you're driving the same day, you have
to be obviously super mindfuland spitting.
It's nice to do in pairs, so mypartner, Courtney, and I will
take turns.
Sometimes you end up at awinery where you're drinking
some of the best wine in theworld and it's a very hard thing
to spit.
Lea Lane (03:21):
It's very hard, I agree.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (03:26):
And so that often leads to last-minute
pivoting, and needing toreschedule some tastings.
Never book too many tastings ina day, because it's impossible
to make it on time to all ofthem.
Give yourself a little bit of abuffer, because you never know
what the winemaker is going toopen.
Lea Lane (03:40):
Also, you can take tours.
You can take Uber.
There are options today whereboth of you could be drinking
right.
Yeah, also, you can take tours.
You can take Uber.
There are options today whereboth of you could be drinking
right.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (03:47):
Yeah, unfortunately there's no Ubers
in most of Europe, in the wineregion.
So in the bigger places likeBordeaux, you'll be able to get
an Uber, but if you're inBurgundy or a smaller place like
Piedmont, there's no Ubers,there's no taxis.
There's some drivers that youcan book, that the hotel can
arrange, which is always mypiece of advice, but if you're
(04:07):
going from Italy to France allwithin one day, then you're kind
of on your own, unfortunately.
Lea Lane (04:13):
Let's talk costs.
How do you pay for winetastings?
Are there discounts on wine?
Do you need to factor in anyother costs that we don't know
about?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (04:21):
It depends really on the region, so
that's a little tricky toanswer.
In some of the smaller regions,generally speaking, the
tastings are always free.
It really just depends on theproducer and where you are.
If you can do a little bit ofresearch and find a smaller
producer.
A lot of the times they're morethan welcome to just accept
your email and invite you in fora tasting, and there's usually
(04:44):
no cost associated with it.
But it depends.
If you're in a larger wineregion, like Bordeaux, for
example, there could be a prettyhefty cost associated with the
tasting somewhere between 100 toa couple hundred euros and it
depends on the winery.
Oftentimes, but not always,you'll be able to purchase a
case of wine and the price isbetter than what you would be
(05:06):
able to buy the wine for in theUS.
The one thing having to carryaround a case of wine with you
is always a little tricky.
Lea Lane (05:16):
Well, great wine pairs with great food.
How do you plan your eatingexperiences when you're
traveling to wineries?
Do you have your main meal atlunch, or how does it work?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (05:24):
We're traveling for work and we're
visiting these wineries forbusiness.
The most important thing is tofind the best restaurants in the
regions.
Most times we ask the producers, we ask the winemakers hey,
where do you guys go for lunch,where do you go for dinner,
where do you go for specialoccasions?
And we try to make sure we havea couple of hours in between
(05:44):
for lunch and then, of course,for dinner at one of the best
regional restaurants in Europe.
For lunch, specifically,there's no such thing as a
30-minute lunch.
Every lunch is about two hoursand has three courses,
especially in France.
Lea Lane (06:00):
Sounds good, sounds like not a big problem.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (06:03):
It's not a bad problem at all.
Lea Lane (06:04):
Right, no.
Now what are typicalaccommodation options, and what
about staying at the vineyards?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (06:10):
So some wineries have their own hotels,
some do not.
In Italy, they have theagriturismo small inn, if you
will, and which is always alovely place to stay, and then
you get to spend a little bitmore time with the winemaker and
build a personal connection.
There's always Airbnbs, whichare lovely in these smaller
regions, and then, of course,there's some really great hotels
(06:32):
.
Lea Lane (06:32):
Because everybody loves wine.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (06:35):
Exactly Right, exactly.
Makes sense.
Lea Lane (06:37):
Okay, there are many beautiful wine regions around
the world, many of which wefeatured on Places I Remember,
including South Africa onepisode 101.
New Zealand on episode 28.
Australia, episode 84.
Portugal, episode 51.
United States, episode 47.
So we are aware of the greatidea of taking wine trips, but
(07:00):
let's talk about the highlightsof your recent European wine
trip, and I'll add someinformation too, because I've
done a few of these myself.
Let's start with France.
You recently went to Provence,which accounts for nearly 10% of
the world's rosé production.
Provence is the one wine regionof the world where pink is the
main color.
How is rosé made compared tored and white wine?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (07:23):
Rosé is really just allowing the skins
of red grapes to come intocontact with the wine for just a
little bit longer.
So you can make white wine fromred grapes, you can make red
wine from red grapes, and that'soften just because of how long
the skin, the juice itself, isactually white.
That's the process for rosé andthey've been kind of famous for
it.
It works super, super well witha lot of their food: grilled
(07:47):
fish, squash, blossoms, tomatoes- just really like summery
things.
Lea Lane (07:53):
I can only visualize this, eating squash blossoms and
rosé on the coast of.
It is exactly like that.
It's pretty amazing.
Well, you and Courtney spent a week staying at a hotel
in Nice, enjoying the sightsand the sounds and the amazing
food and drink.
What are some of your favoritethings that you enjoy beyond the
vineyards in that area?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (08:13):
I actually went to a tennis
academy when I was there.
He was the former coach ofSerena Williams and he has this
whole tennis resort, PatrickMortiglier Tennis Academy.
It's a really cool facility.
The hotel itself is quite niceand the food is delicious, but
to be able to go and be athleticfor a few days was amazing
before a long journey.
So if you're a fan of tennis, Ihighly recommend it, and they
(08:36):
do a really great job of puttingpeople together in all
different levels.
That was one of the highlights.
Lea Lane (08:43):
I love the old town.
You just walk around there.
There are lovely shops.
You can buy the beautifulProvençal prints, placemats
still that I use.
I love the museums there toothe Chagall Museum, Matisse and
the whole area.
The French Riviera is a gem.
We covered that in episode 94.
It's lovely to think of thatarea and wine together.
(09:03):
And what could be bad?
Right?
Area of Champagne.
Tell me about that.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (09:08):
Yeah, I love Champagne.
It's one of my favorite regions.
I'm lucky to go to Europe aboutfour times or so a year and
almost every time we go, we dogo to Champagne.
It's a absolutely massiveregion.
There's two main centers,there's Rheims and Empernay, and
they're about an hour and ahalf or so drive apart, near
Paris, if I may add, they'reonly about 150 kilometers east
(09:31):
of Paris, so it's a day trip.
Exactly so.
We often fly into Paris andthen we drive up to Champagne.
Whether you're coming from NewYork or California, you tend to
land in Paris around anywherebetween 7 to 10 am.
We always fly in in the morningand then just go straight to
Champagne right after.
But it's a huge region.
If you go from the top to thebottom, it could be two, three
(09:52):
hours of driving.
But for me, the heart ofChampagne is Rheims.
It's a really beautiful littlecity, tons of walking, there's
really beautiful parks, there'ssome amazing restaurants.
There's also some greatrestaurants there that are not
necessarily French.
One of my favorite restaurantsis called Restaurant Mala.
It's a Chinese noodlerestaurant.
Incredible local, organicproducts highlighting these
(10:15):
Chinese techniques.
So you get this really spicebut really high quality product.
And if you are eating Frenchfood for the past week or two
weeks and then you go and youeat something a little different
.
That's always a really greatplace.
Lea Lane (10:26):
Well, I read that you said you can hit McDonald's if
you want to get away from it andhave champagne with your French
fries.
That sounded pretty interesting.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (10:36):
I will say champagne and McDonald's.
French fries are one of thegreatest pleasures in the world.
In France they actually usereal potatoes.
The quality of McDonald's friesis much higher.
Of course.
Lea Lane (10:49):
That's a town in the area.
It's very medieval in the oldtown.
It has timber-framed houses,Gothic churches, Very, very
charming.
I want to ask about thechampagne houses, the maisons.
That's a very special thing inChampagne area that you can stay
in these older homes and manyof the vineyards have
connections, right.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (11:08):
Yeah, they do, for sure.
There's two different kinds ofcamps in Champagne in terms of
Champagne makers.
So you have these big maisonslike Dom Perignon and Krug
they're the larger houses andsometimes they have
accommodations in which you canstay.
And then you have the smallergrower producers, and these are
often what I would still kind ofconsider the farmers of
(11:31):
Champagne vineyards, where Krugdoesn't.
They own a small percentage oftheir vineyards, but oftentimes
too, some of these smallerproducers they do have just like
really small boutique two- roomplaces.
They might just providebreakfast in the morning, and
then you get this reallybeautiful experience of getting
to know somebody very intimately.
Lea Lane (11:51):
Sounds delightful.
Again a glass of Champagne atnight as well, and you can drink
what you want and go to sleep.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (11:56):
Exactly, exactly.
Lea Lane (11:57):
Okay, well, let's go into Italy.
There are 20 wine regions,about 350 official Italian wine
varieties and rumors that therewere over 2000 different Italian
grapes throughout the centuries.
You went to the Piedmont areain northwest Italy, which is one
of the main grape growing areas.
It's at the foot of the WesternAlps.
(12:18):
Tell us a little bit about yourvisit there.
What are the highlights?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (12:21):
Piedmont, I have to say, is probably one
of the most beautiful wineregions in the world.
Typically, you'll fly intoMilan and then drive.
It's about anywhere between anhour and two hours, depending on
traffic getting out of Milan.
But it has these rolling hillsand it's so vast, so green.
In the summertime it's really abreathtaking place.
(12:43):
Hot air balloons flying around.
It's really spectacular.
There's five little villages,if you will, within Piedmont,
and the sixth being Alba, whichis a larger town, but I
recommend just driving to alittle town like La Mora, which
is one of my favorite places.
I feel like it's even moremedieval.
(13:03):
There's all of these really old, old buildings, small towns,
most of the little towns you canwalk around within 25 to 30
minutes, La Mora being a littlebit bigger one with more shops
and there's some museums andabsolutely breathtaking place.
Don't think I've ever had a badmeal in Piedmont.
It's one of my favorite placesto eat.
Lea Lane (13:25):
You have to mention truffles, right.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (13:27):
If you can go, November, December are
the prime time.
I always love going around thefirst week of December for
truffles specifically.
It's usually towards theend-ish season of the truffles.
You tend to miss a lot of thesuper crazy busy tourist time
because during truffle seasonand for the truffle festival it
(13:47):
can be quite hectic and with alot of people and during that
last week of December everyoneis always gone.
Lea Lane (13:52):
There are lots of tours now where you can go on
truffle hunts with the pigs.
Alba is a lovely place.
Turin is the capital.
It's a very vibrant city withart and music and good shopping.
There's a Royal Palace which isa museum of ancient art, so I
think it's a lovely trip.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (14:08):
It really is.
Lea Lane (14:09):
Tell me a little bit about the wine of the region.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (14:11):
It's mostly focused on reds.
There are some whites,particularly Arnaz.
Some producers do a great job,but the reds are really the
focus.
In Piedmont it's Nebbiolo isthe main grape.
There's also a little bit ofBarbera and Dolcetto.
You'll find some early drinking, younger, pleasurable wines,
and then you'll also find wineslike Barolo need quite a few
(14:31):
years of age on it as a minimumaging requirement.
You would never really see abottle in the US unless it's
about five years old.
Lea Lane (14:39):
I've seen Barolo at many restaurants and it's aged.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (14:43):
Yeah, yeah, amazing with Italian food.
Lea Lane (14:45):
Well, from Italy you traveled to Baden and
Rheinhessen in Germany along theRhine River.
I know you're really excitedabout this area.
It's great for year-roundtravel and, like some of the
other more coastal towns, Wefeatured this area in episode 69
of Places, I Remember.
Let's see, what kind of wine isthe region known for.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (15:03):
Germany is definitely home of Riesling.
There's a really big push rightnow in Germany to have dry
wines.
I think a lot of times peoplethink of Riesling as the like
fruity sweet wine, but there's abig push to make dry wine.
So if you see Riesling on awine list or anywhere, you can
ask if it's dry.
Lea Lane (15:20):
Oh, it's delicious If it's a good wine oh, I love it.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (15:28):
But in Baden, in the southern part, and
also a little bit inRheinhessen, there's been a big
focus recently on red wine.
Historically, it's been toocold in Germany for the red
wines to really ripen, but withglobal warming there's been such
a significant change and nowit's a big focus.
It's getting quite hot, andespecially in Baden, which is
the hottest place in Germany itcan sometimes get up to 90
degrees and so Pinot Noir isquickly becoming a focus in both
(15:49):
in Baden and Rheinhessen.
Lea Lane (15:51):
Interesting.
Of course, you could alwaystake a river cruise along the
Rhine and stop.
I remember I've taken cruiseson the Rhine and on the Moselle.
Both times there were stops togo to the vineyards and sample
the wine, so it's a nice way todo it if you don't want to drive
and again you're taken there.
You can drink your wine whileyou're there at the vineyards.
Very beautiful too, just tolook out and see all those
(16:14):
gorgeous vineyards sloping downto the river.
Yes, it's another lovely area.
In Europe, Spain now there aremany famous wine regions, but on
your trip you focused onValencia, which is overlooking
the Mediterranean and has morethan 300 days of sunshine a year
, so it's a lovely area forweather.
(16:35):
Tell us a little bit more aboutValencia in terms of wine.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (16:40):
This is a really exciting place for me.
It's one of my favorite placesin Spain to eat, specifically.
Lea Lane (16:46):
And I know what you ate.
You ate paella, right, Ofcourse you have to eat paella.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (16:52):
We flew into Valencia and we spent a
little bit of time there, andthen we spent a little bit of
time in Alicante.
It's quite close, it's about anhour and a half drive or so.
It's really interesting becausein Alicante, in Valencia,
they're both famous for the rice.
For the paella they make itdifferently.
In Valencia you have food thatis seafood driven, and then
(17:12):
Alicante, which is a bit moreinland, you have well, it's a
desert, it's one of the mostbreathtaking places, but you're
basically just looking at rocksthe entire time, and so you have
food that's more, maybe beef orrabbit.
The wines from both Alicante andValencia are some whites.
They tend to be more red, heavy, and some of the wines can be
(17:35):
--it is quite a hot region --canbe very heavy and rich.
Where the region is warmer orhotter, the wines always get
riper, so there's a highercontent of alcohol.
But there's a reallyinteresting movement that's
happening, particularly inAlicante, with some of the
younger generation winemakers.
They're understanding how toharvest and how to work in the
(17:59):
vineyards and so they're tryingto make these much more elegant
style wines.
We flew from Champagne.
We went to Spain just to visitone producer in particular for
one day, with a winery calledBodega Serran, and the kids are
making a small project from thefamily winery and the wines are
beautiful.
It's really interesting becausethe whole region is surrounded
by these really heavy, densewines, but they've been spending
(18:22):
the last few years working inthe vineyards and the wines are
so delicate, so elegant.
It's really remarkable and forme, I love that style, because
when you're in 110 degreeweather, you really don't want
to be drinking this 17% alcoholwine, and so I love what they're
doing and I highly recommend avisit.
Lea Lane (18:41):
We're all adapting in our ways, right?
This is one of them.
I just want to mention Cofrente,a little village in the
Valencia region.
It's considered one of the mostbeautiful and it has a
wonderful castle built in the12th century.
So there's again things to dooutside of the vineyards and all
of these regions we're talkingabout, and I would say, try to
(19:01):
leave time, if not every day, atleast, like you said, a day or
two, to separate from the wineand to explore, because there is
such beauty in this area.
Well, the name of the podcastis Places, I Remember.
So, Thatcher, would you pleaseshare a personal travel memory
of your wine travels?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (19:19):
Four or five years ago, when we were
starting this import company,there was one particular
producer that I had tasted thewines of, and fell in love with,
and we were talking for yearsand years and years, and he had
an importer in the US already,so unfortunately, we couldn't
work together.
Years later, some thingschanged, and the reason why on
(19:39):
this trip we ended up inAlicante was for this producer,
as I mentioned.
So we got a call from him andwe're in Champagne, we have a
flight booked out of Paris,we're supposed to leave.
He says oh, you know, I decidedto make a change and OK, so
we're like, all right, we'll bethere tomorrow.
It turns out I left my walletat the hotel and we were rushing
(20:00):
and didn't know how to getthere, and so we had to ship my
wallet and then it got missed.
And so we kept getting pushedand we ended up somehow driving
super fast, made it to theairport in Paris, flew to Spain,
went to go see him, and it wasthis really amazing experience
where we were all together.
And he says to us hey, do youwant to go eat the best rice in
(20:23):
the world?
And I said, well, of course,after this crazy travel period
and tasting a bunch of wine.
We jump in his little car andit's like a winery car, it's
very small and we're drivingdown this road.
We're driving for probably anhour and a half into the desert
and we have no idea where we'regoing.
We get to this tiny restaurantin the middle of nowhere and we
(20:47):
walk in and he's like this isthe place, and it's this
absolutely incredible restaurant.
The chef learned from thismaster of paella, if you will.
They cook everything over thevines of grapes, which is really
incredible.
And they do the traditionalAlicante style, which is a
rabbit and snails, which is atype of paella that I've never
(21:11):
heard of before.
And we're sitting there andthey bring us into the kitchen
and it's this really specialthing because they add just the
perfect amount of vines ofgrapes into the fire and once
you add the vines and you addthe broth, if you will, to your
rice, you can never add morefire and you can never add more
(21:32):
liquid.
So you basically have this oneshot, this one chance.
There's no scales, there's norecipes, it's just the feeling
of the chef.
And so we're sitting there andwe're like, wow, we've been
traveling for 20 days, we rushed.
We drove about 200 kilometersan hour to make it to the
airport.
Now, all of a sudden, we'resitting here in this kitchen in
(21:54):
the middle of nowhere, with awinemaker that I've been wanting
to spend time with for yearsand years, and years, and then
we eat this paella, and it wasreally one of the greatest foods
that I've ever eaten in my life, and so, if you ever find
yourself in Alicante, there's arestaurant called Restaurant
Elias E-L-I-A-S, and I highlyrecommend it.
Lea Lane (22:15):
It's worth any journey , as somebody that traveled
about a thousand kilometers forit.
It's worth it.
Thank you.
That was a really, reallysharing the pleasures of eating,
(22:37):
drinking and enjoying some ofthe loveliest areas of Europe.
A toast to you, chin chin,salute, a and cheers to wine
and to travel.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (22:48):
Amazing.
Thank you so much.
Wine regions are some of the loveliest areas in the
world climates where grapesthrive, filled with charming
towns, with farm-to-table foodand, of course, great wine.
Canadian-born Thatcher BakerBriggs is founder of Thatcher's
Wine in LA.
He travels the worlddiscovering wine regions and new
(00:21):
and excellent varietals.
He's just returned from one ofhis European wine trips and has
much to share with us.
Welcome, Thatcher, to Places IRemember.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (00:30):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Lea Lane (00:32):
Great.
Well, I know your journey beganas a restaurant dishwasher at
the age of just 13 and broughtyou to Michelin star restaurants
across the world.
Tell us a bit more of yourexperiences in the culinary
scene and how this turned intoyour deep interest in wine.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (00:47):
I had a passion probably when I was
around nine or 10, and I wasobsessed with cooking and
ingredients and food.
It led me down this path ofchasing my dreams to become a
chef, and I just happened to getan early start on things and
traveled all around Canada andthen wanted to work in the
Michelin star environment.
So I moved to San Francisco andI was at Qua, which was a two
(01:09):
and three Michelin starrestaurant.
I was cooking and tasting wineand, realizing that I don't
really know anything about wine,I wanted to really dive in.
So I started studying and Ijust got hooked.
Then started pursuing mysommelier exam.
I ended up at another threeMichelin star in San Francisco.
Lea Lane (01:27):
Were you the youngest ever course- certified sommelier
?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (01:30):
I wasn't the youngest ever.
I started at 21, which is theearliest you can do it in the US
, and I passed, I think, justafter my 22nd birthday.
Lea Lane (01:40):
So recently you, Thatcher, and your partner
Courtney, combined a relaxingvacation with wine work.
So before we talk about some ofthe regions you explored, let's
talk about what you think makesa great wine vacation.
I know it depends where youvisit, but what do you consider
an ideal length of a wine tour,just from a logistical
standpoint?
(02:00):
How much is too much?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (02:02):
Twenty days is too much.
I will say that I have animport company and so we started
just about four years ago.
We've been trying to find thenext generation winemakers a lot
of time in Europe in drivingand so we do these longer trips.
To be honest, I would neveradvise anybody doing a solely 20
(02:22):
day wine tour, driving about2,000 kilometers, because it's
quite exhausting.
I think that the best amount oftime is somewhere around four
to five days.
I think you want to get to thewine region, take a day to
breathe and just sort of be inthe place, and then you can do
four days of tastings and thenat the end take another day or
(02:43):
two to just relax a little bit.
You do consume a lot of wine,and while you might be at home
drinking a bottle of wine everynight, those afternoon or
morning wine tastings do kind ofwear on you pretty quickly.
Lea Lane (02:56):
Let me ask you about spitting out the wine versus
drinking it.
In terms of driving, how do youmanage that situation?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (03:03):
If you're driving the same day, you have
to be obviously super mindfuland spitting.
It's nice to do in pairs, so mypartner, Courtney, and I will
take turns.
Sometimes you end up at awinery where you're drinking
some of the best wine in theworld and it's a very hard thing
to spit.
Lea Lane (03:21):
It's very hard, I agree.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (03:26):
And so that often leads to last-minute
pivoting, and needing toreschedule some tastings.
Never book too many tastings ina day, because it's impossible
to make it on time to all ofthem.
Give yourself a little bit of abuffer, because you never know
what the winemaker is going toopen.
Lea Lane (03:40):
Also, you can take tours.
You can take Uber.
There are options today whereboth of you could be drinking
right.
Yeah, also, you can take tours.
You can take Uber.
There are options today whereboth of you could be drinking
right.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (03:47):
Yeah, unfortunately there's no Ubers
in most of Europe, in the wineregion.
So in the bigger places likeBordeaux, you'll be able to get
an Uber, but if you're inBurgundy or a smaller place like
Piedmont, there's no Ubers,there's no taxis.
There's some drivers that youcan book, that the hotel can
arrange, which is always mypiece of advice, but if you're
(04:07):
going from Italy to France allwithin one day, then you're kind
of on your own, unfortunately.
Lea Lane (04:13):
Let's talk costs.
How do you pay for winetastings?
Are there discounts on wine?
Do you need to factor in anyother costs that we don't know
about?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (04:21):
It depends really on the region, so
that's a little tricky toanswer.
In some of the smaller regions,generally speaking, the
tastings are always free.
It really just depends on theproducer and where you are.
If you can do a little bit ofresearch and find a smaller
producer.
A lot of the times they're morethan welcome to just accept
your email and invite you in fora tasting, and there's usually
(04:44):
no cost associated with it.
But it depends.
If you're in a larger wineregion, like Bordeaux, for
example, there could be a prettyhefty cost associated with the
tasting somewhere between 100 toa couple hundred euros and it
depends on the winery.
Oftentimes, but not always,you'll be able to purchase a
case of wine and the price isbetter than what you would be
(05:06):
able to buy the wine for in theUS.
The one thing having to carryaround a case of wine with you
is always a little tricky.
Lea Lane (05:16):
Well, great wine pairs with great food.
How do you plan your eatingexperiences when you're
traveling to wineries?
Do you have your main meal atlunch, or how does it work?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (05:24):
We're traveling for work and we're
visiting these wineries forbusiness.
The most important thing is tofind the best restaurants in the
regions.
Most times we ask the producers, we ask the winemakers hey,
where do you guys go for lunch,where do you go for dinner,
where do you go for specialoccasions?
And we try to make sure we havea couple of hours in between
(05:44):
for lunch and then, of course,for dinner at one of the best
regional restaurants in Europe.
For lunch, specifically,there's no such thing as a
30-minute lunch.
Every lunch is about two hoursand has three courses,
especially in France.
Lea Lane (06:00):
Sounds good, sounds like not a big problem.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (06:03):
It's not a bad problem at all.
Lea Lane (06:04):
Right, no.
Now what are typicalaccommodation options, and what
about staying at the vineyards?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (06:10):
So some wineries have their own hotels,
some do not.
In Italy, they have theagriturismo small inn, if you
will, and which is always alovely place to stay, and then
you get to spend a little bitmore time with the winemaker and
build a personal connection.
There's always Airbnbs, whichare lovely in these smaller
regions, and then, of course,there's some really great hotels
(06:32):
.
Lea Lane (06:32):
Because everybody loves wine.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (06:35):
Exactly Right, exactly.
Makes sense.
Lea Lane (06:37):
Okay, there are many beautiful wine regions around
the world, many of which wefeatured on Places I Remember,
including South Africa onepisode 101.
New Zealand on episode 28.
Australia, episode 84.
Portugal, episode 51.
United States, episode 47.
So we are aware of the greatidea of taking wine trips, but
(07:00):
let's talk about the highlightsof your recent European wine
trip, and I'll add someinformation too, because I've
done a few of these myself.
Let's start with France.
You recently went to Provence,which accounts for nearly 10% of
the world's rosé production.
Provence is the one wine regionof the world where pink is the
main color.
How is rosé made compared tored and white wine?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (07:23):
Rosé is really just allowing the skins
of red grapes to come intocontact with the wine for just a
little bit longer.
So you can make white wine fromred grapes, you can make red
wine from red grapes, and that'soften just because of how long
the skin, the juice itself, isactually white.
That's the process for rosé andthey've been kind of famous for
it.
It works super, super well witha lot of their food: grilled
(07:47):
fish, squash, blossoms, tomatoes- just really like summery
things.
Lea Lane (07:53):
I can only visualize this, eating squash blossoms and
rosé on the coast of.
It is exactly like that.
It's pretty amazing.
Well, you and Courtney spent a week staying at a hotel
in Nice, enjoying the sightsand the sounds and the amazing
food and drink.
What are some of your favoritethings that you enjoy beyond the
vineyards in that area?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (08:13):
I actually went to a tennis
academy when I was there.
He was the former coach ofSerena Williams and he has this
whole tennis resort, PatrickMortiglier Tennis Academy.
It's a really cool facility.
The hotel itself is quite niceand the food is delicious, but
to be able to go and be athleticfor a few days was amazing
before a long journey.
So if you're a fan of tennis, Ihighly recommend it, and they
(08:36):
do a really great job of puttingpeople together in all
different levels.
That was one of the highlights.
Lea Lane (08:43):
I love the old town.
You just walk around there.
There are lovely shops.
You can buy the beautifulProvençal prints, placemats
still that I use.
I love the museums there toothe Chagall Museum, Matisse and
the whole area.
The French Riviera is a gem.
We covered that in episode 94.
It's lovely to think of thatarea and wine together.
(09:03):
And what could be bad?
Right?
Area of Champagne.
Tell me about that.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (09:08):
Yeah, I love Champagne.
It's one of my favorite regions.
I'm lucky to go to Europe aboutfour times or so a year and
almost every time we go, we dogo to Champagne.
It's a absolutely massiveregion.
There's two main centers,there's Rheims and Empernay, and
they're about an hour and ahalf or so drive apart, near
Paris, if I may add, they'reonly about 150 kilometers east
(09:31):
of Paris, so it's a day trip.
Exactly so.
We often fly into Paris andthen we drive up to Champagne.
Whether you're coming from NewYork or California, you tend to
land in Paris around anywherebetween 7 to 10 am.
We always fly in in the morningand then just go straight to
Champagne right after.
But it's a huge region.
If you go from the top to thebottom, it could be two, three
(09:52):
hours of driving.
But for me, the heart ofChampagne is Rheims.
It's a really beautiful littlecity, tons of walking, there's
really beautiful parks, there'ssome amazing restaurants.
There's also some greatrestaurants there that are not
necessarily French.
One of my favorite restaurantsis called Restaurant Mala.
It's a Chinese noodlerestaurant.
Incredible local, organicproducts highlighting these
(10:15):
Chinese techniques.
So you get this really spicebut really high quality product.
And if you are eating Frenchfood for the past week or two
weeks and then you go and youeat something a little different
.
That's always a really greatplace.
Lea Lane (10:26):
Well, I read that you said you can hit McDonald's if
you want to get away from it andhave champagne with your French
fries.
That sounded pretty interesting.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (10:36):
I will say champagne and McDonald's.
French fries are one of thegreatest pleasures in the world.
In France they actually usereal potatoes.
The quality of McDonald's friesis much higher.
Of course.
Lea Lane (10:49):
That's a town in the area.
It's very medieval in the oldtown.
It has timber-framed houses,Gothic churches, Very, very
charming.
I want to ask about thechampagne houses, the maisons.
That's a very special thing inChampagne area that you can stay
in these older homes and manyof the vineyards have
connections, right.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (11:08):
Yeah, they do, for sure.
There's two different kinds ofcamps in Champagne in terms of
Champagne makers.
So you have these big maisonslike Dom Perignon and Krug
they're the larger houses andsometimes they have
accommodations in which you canstay.
And then you have the smallergrower producers, and these are
often what I would still kind ofconsider the farmers of
(11:31):
Champagne vineyards, where Krugdoesn't.
They own a small percentage oftheir vineyards, but oftentimes
too, some of these smallerproducers they do have just like
really small boutique two- roomplaces.
They might just providebreakfast in the morning, and
then you get this reallybeautiful experience of getting
to know somebody very intimately.
Lea Lane (11:51):
Sounds delightful.
Again a glass of Champagne atnight as well, and you can drink
what you want and go to sleep.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (11:56):
Exactly, exactly.
Lea Lane (11:57):
Okay, well, let's go into Italy.
There are 20 wine regions,about 350 official Italian wine
varieties and rumors that therewere over 2000 different Italian
grapes throughout the centuries.
You went to the Piedmont areain northwest Italy, which is one
of the main grape growing areas.
It's at the foot of the WesternAlps.
(12:18):
Tell us a little bit about yourvisit there.
What are the highlights?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (12:21):
Piedmont, I have to say, is probably one
of the most beautiful wineregions in the world.
Typically, you'll fly intoMilan and then drive.
It's about anywhere between anhour and two hours, depending on
traffic getting out of Milan.
But it has these rolling hillsand it's so vast, so green.
In the summertime it's really abreathtaking place.
(12:43):
Hot air balloons flying around.
It's really spectacular.
There's five little villages,if you will, within Piedmont,
and the sixth being Alba, whichis a larger town, but I
recommend just driving to alittle town like La Mora, which
is one of my favorite places.
I feel like it's even moremedieval.
(13:03):
There's all of these really old, old buildings, small towns,
most of the little towns you canwalk around within 25 to 30
minutes, La Mora being a littlebit bigger one with more shops
and there's some museums andabsolutely breathtaking place.
Don't think I've ever had a badmeal in Piedmont.
It's one of my favorite placesto eat.
Lea Lane (13:25):
You have to mention truffles, right.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (13:27):
If you can go, November, December are
the prime time.
I always love going around thefirst week of December for
truffles specifically.
It's usually towards theend-ish season of the truffles.
You tend to miss a lot of thesuper crazy busy tourist time
because during truffle seasonand for the truffle festival it
(13:47):
can be quite hectic and with alot of people and during that
last week of December everyoneis always gone.
Lea Lane (13:52):
There are lots of tours now where you can go on
truffle hunts with the pigs.
Alba is a lovely place.
Turin is the capital.
It's a very vibrant city withart and music and good shopping.
There's a Royal Palace which isa museum of ancient art, so I
think it's a lovely trip.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (14:08):
It really is.
Lea Lane (14:09):
Tell me a little bit about the wine of the region.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (14:11):
It's mostly focused on reds.
There are some whites,particularly Arnaz.
Some producers do a great job,but the reds are really the
focus.
In Piedmont it's Nebbiolo isthe main grape.
There's also a little bit ofBarbera and Dolcetto.
You'll find some early drinking, younger, pleasurable wines,
and then you'll also find wineslike Barolo need quite a few
(14:31):
years of age on it as a minimumaging requirement.
You would never really see abottle in the US unless it's
about five years old.
Lea Lane (14:39):
I've seen Barolo at many restaurants and it's aged.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (14:43):
Yeah, yeah, amazing with Italian food.
Lea Lane (14:45):
Well, from Italy you traveled to Baden and
Rheinhessen in Germany along theRhine River.
I know you're really excitedabout this area.
It's great for year-roundtravel and, like some of the
other more coastal towns, Wefeatured this area in episode 69
of Places, I Remember.
Let's see, what kind of wine isthe region known for.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (15:03):
Germany is definitely home of Riesling.
There's a really big push rightnow in Germany to have dry
wines.
I think a lot of times peoplethink of Riesling as the like
fruity sweet wine, but there's abig push to make dry wine.
So if you see Riesling on awine list or anywhere, you can
ask if it's dry.
Lea Lane (15:20):
Oh, it's delicious If it's a good wine oh, I love it.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (15:28):
But in Baden, in the southern part, and
also a little bit inRheinhessen, there's been a big
focus recently on red wine.
Historically, it's been toocold in Germany for the red
wines to really ripen, but withglobal warming there's been such
a significant change and nowit's a big focus.
It's getting quite hot, andespecially in Baden, which is
the hottest place in Germany itcan sometimes get up to 90
degrees and so Pinot Noir isquickly becoming a focus in both
(15:49):
in Baden and Rheinhessen.
Lea Lane (15:51):
Interesting.
Of course, you could alwaystake a river cruise along the
Rhine and stop.
I remember I've taken cruiseson the Rhine and on the Moselle.
Both times there were stops togo to the vineyards and sample
the wine, so it's a nice way todo it if you don't want to drive
and again you're taken there.
You can drink your wine whileyou're there at the vineyards.
Very beautiful too, just tolook out and see all those
(16:14):
gorgeous vineyards sloping downto the river.
Yes, it's another lovely area.
In Europe, Spain now there aremany famous wine regions, but on
your trip you focused onValencia, which is overlooking
the Mediterranean and has morethan 300 days of sunshine a year
, so it's a lovely area forweather.
(16:35):
Tell us a little bit more aboutValencia in terms of wine.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (16:40):
This is a really exciting place for me.
It's one of my favorite placesin Spain to eat, specifically.
Lea Lane (16:46):
And I know what you ate.
You ate paella, right, Ofcourse you have to eat paella.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (16:52):
We flew into Valencia and we spent a
little bit of time there, andthen we spent a little bit of
time in Alicante.
It's quite close, it's about anhour and a half drive or so.
It's really interesting becausein Alicante, in Valencia,
they're both famous for the rice.
For the paella they make itdifferently.
In Valencia you have food thatis seafood driven, and then
(17:12):
Alicante, which is a bit moreinland, you have well, it's a
desert, it's one of the mostbreathtaking places, but you're
basically just looking at rocksthe entire time, and so you have
food that's more, maybe beef orrabbit.
The wines from both Alicante andValencia are some whites.
They tend to be more red, heavy, and some of the wines can be
(17:35):
--it is quite a hot region --canbe very heavy and rich.
Where the region is warmer orhotter, the wines always get
riper, so there's a highercontent of alcohol.
But there's a reallyinteresting movement that's
happening, particularly inAlicante, with some of the
younger generation winemakers.
They're understanding how toharvest and how to work in the
(17:59):
vineyards and so they're tryingto make these much more elegant
style wines.
We flew from Champagne.
We went to Spain just to visitone producer in particular for
one day, with a winery calledBodega Serran, and the kids are
making a small project from thefamily winery and the wines are
beautiful.
It's really interesting becausethe whole region is surrounded
by these really heavy, densewines, but they've been spending
(18:22):
the last few years working inthe vineyards and the wines are
so delicate, so elegant.
It's really remarkable and forme, I love that style, because
when you're in 110 degreeweather, you really don't want
to be drinking this 17% alcoholwine, and so I love what they're
doing and I highly recommend avisit.
Lea Lane (18:41):
We're all adapting in our ways, right?
This is one of them.
I just want to mention Cofrente,a little village in the
Valencia region.
It's considered one of the mostbeautiful and it has a
wonderful castle built in the12th century.
So there's again things to dooutside of the vineyards and all
of these regions we're talkingabout, and I would say, try to
(19:01):
leave time, if not every day, atleast, like you said, a day or
two, to separate from the wineand to explore, because there is
such beauty in this area.
Well, the name of the podcastis Places, I Remember.
So, Thatcher, would you pleaseshare a personal travel memory
of your wine travels?
Thatcher Baker Briggs (19:19):
Four or five years ago, when we were
starting this import company,there was one particular
producer that I had tasted thewines of, and fell in love with,
and we were talking for yearsand years and years, and he had
an importer in the US already,so unfortunately, we couldn't
work together.
Years later, some thingschanged, and the reason why on
(19:39):
this trip we ended up inAlicante was for this producer,
as I mentioned.
So we got a call from him andwe're in Champagne, we have a
flight booked out of Paris,we're supposed to leave.
He says oh, you know, I decidedto make a change and OK, so
we're like, all right, we'll bethere tomorrow.
It turns out I left my walletat the hotel and we were rushing
(20:00):
and didn't know how to getthere, and so we had to ship my
wallet and then it got missed.
And so we kept getting pushedand we ended up somehow driving
super fast, made it to theairport in Paris, flew to Spain,
went to go see him, and it wasthis really amazing experience
where we were all together.
And he says to us hey, do youwant to go eat the best rice in
(20:23):
the world?
And I said, well, of course,after this crazy travel period
and tasting a bunch of wine.
We jump in his little car andit's like a winery car, it's
very small and we're drivingdown this road.
We're driving for probably anhour and a half into the desert
and we have no idea where we'regoing.
We get to this tiny restaurantin the middle of nowhere and we
(20:47):
walk in and he's like this isthe place, and it's this
absolutely incredible restaurant.
The chef learned from thismaster of paella, if you will.
They cook everything over thevines of grapes, which is really
incredible.
And they do the traditionalAlicante style, which is a
rabbit and snails, which is atype of paella that I've never
(21:11):
heard of before.
And we're sitting there andthey bring us into the kitchen
and it's this really specialthing because they add just the
perfect amount of vines ofgrapes into the fire and once
you add the vines and you addthe broth, if you will, to your
rice, you can never add morefire and you can never add more
(21:32):
liquid.
So you basically have this oneshot, this one chance.
There's no scales, there's norecipes, it's just the feeling
of the chef.
And so we're sitting there andwe're like, wow, we've been
traveling for 20 days, we rushed.
We drove about 200 kilometersan hour to make it to the
airport.
Now, all of a sudden, we'resitting here in this kitchen in
(21:54):
the middle of nowhere, with awinemaker that I've been wanting
to spend time with for yearsand years, and years, and then
we eat this paella, and it wasreally one of the greatest foods
that I've ever eaten in my life, and so, if you ever find
yourself in Alicante, there's arestaurant called Restaurant
Elias E-L-I-A-S, and I highlyrecommend it.
Lea Lane (22:15):
It's worth any journey , as somebody that traveled
about a thousand kilometers forit.
It's worth it.
Thank you.
That was a really, reallysharing the pleasures of eating,
(22:37):
drinking and enjoying some ofthe loveliest areas of Europe.
A toast to you, chin chin,salute, a and cheers to wine
and to travel.
Thatcher Baker Briggs (22:48):
Amazing.
Thank you so much.
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